Seeking to establish Charlemagne Ancestor.

[David Heiden]

I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.

Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton

Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony

Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith

Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis

Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

James Glass, 1620-1652, Holland > Plymouth, MA
Spouse: Mary Ann Pontus, 1626-1690, Holland > Plymouth, MA
Line: Mary de Cogan > Henry > Elizabeth Carye > Richard > William Carye & Mary Boleyne

Thomas Clifton, 1606-1681, England > MA
Spouse: Mary Longothame, 1600-1687 England > MA
Line: Richard Clifton > George Clifton & Winfred Throld

[Will Johnson]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.
>
> Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
> Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
> Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton
>

Just touching your first entry Kenelm

https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00583610&tree=LEO

we see here, no known ascent

what is your source

[Greg Cooke]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 10:37:09 AM UTC-7, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.
>
> Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
> Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
> Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton
>

Regarding the Winslows, I suggest reviewing Anderson, _Pilgrim Migration_ (2004), pp 1-2, 344, & 518-521. Kenelm m. Ellen Newton, widow of John Adams, though her identity as a Newton is somewhat circumstantial. You don't give your descent from the Winslows, but their son Kenelm (s1635-1715) did m. Mercy Worden, daughter of Peter & Mary Worden, gr-daughter of Peter & Margaret Worden. This Peter is a verified gateway. Here's my page on your Kenelm: https://www.gdcooke.org/ss/org2-o/p5614.htm

See also Fradd, _The Winslow Families of Worcestershire_ (2009). An extensive and detailed analysis that does not provide a yes/no conclusion regarding the possible royal descent of the Winslow brothers.

Hope this helps,

Greg

[John Higgins]

Not necessarily true. Just because there is no ascent recorded in Genealogics doesn't mean there is "no known ascent". You should be more specific in your claims.

[David Heiden]

Yes, that is my line, from Kenelm Winslow/Elinot Worden > Ellen Winslow/Rev. Samuel Baker > Lydia Baker/Josiaha Keene > Lydia Keene/George Partridge > Sarah Partridge/Asa Hunt > Capt. Ziba Hunt/Joanne Clarke Blount > George Hunt/Elizabeth Deming > Lydia Hunt/Orren Finch, my GGG Grandparents

[joseph cook]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 12:37:09 PM UTC-5, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not new to Genealogy, have been involved for 20+ years. Currently, I belong to about 15 Hereditary Societies, being an officer in a couple. Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List. My large group of ancestors were early settlers starting with the Mayflower (Bradford & Warren) all through the Eastern Coast. I'm posting a few potential New Gateway Ancestors and would welcome any thoughts or advice. I probably have about 25+ more that could be considered. My Data Base in Reunion is quite large.
>
> Kenelm Winslow 1599-1672, England > Salem, MA,
> Spouse: Elinor Worden 1598-1681, England > Marshfield, MA
> Line: Edward > Kenelm > William > Thomas > Agnes Throckmorton
>
> Sarah Tracy, abt 1621-1708, Holland > Duxbury, MA
> Spouse: George Partridge, 1605-1695. England > Duxbury, MA
> Line: Tryphosa de Leigh > Anne Hungerford > Anthony > John > Anthony
>
> Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
> Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
> Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger
>
> John Hudson, abt 1623-1688, England > Duxbury, MA
> Spouse: Ann Rogers, 1634-1712, Scituate, MA > Marshfield, MA
> Line: Ralph > Anne Tankard > Ralph > Anne Pullen > John > Richard > Ralph > Elizabeth Beckwith
>
> Mary Gurney, 1628-1658, England > Billerica, MA
> Spouse: Daniel Shedd, 1620-1708, England > Billerica, MA
> Line: John > Francis > Ellen Blennerhassett > Elizabeth Cornwallis
>
> Elizabeth Warren, 1629-1715, England > Groton, MA
> Spouse: James Knapp, 1627-1696, England > Groton, MA
> Line: John > John > John > Robert > John > Griffen de Warene & Margaret Corbet

This line, sadly, is made up junk. There is no "de Warene" here.
--Joe C

[Will Johnson]

Reading comprehension

I said "we see HERE no known ascent". Note the use of HERE to express, this, place.

[taf]

Just to amplify, we were just discussing the Griffin Wareyn/de Warenne who is claimed to have married Margaret Corbet on another thread here. The John, son of Griffin at the end of this pedigree had only two known children, a son Griffin who died unmarried before reaching majority, and a daughter Margaret/Marjory who was the eventual heiress of her parents, so there was no son Robert. Do you know where the part of the line running through John, John, John and Robert supposedly lived?

taf

[joseph cook]

John Warren, immigrant, was baptized Aug 1, 1585 in Nayland, Suffolk
John Warren, his father was born about 1552, probably Nayland, Suffolk
John Warren, husbandman, his father was of Nayland, born say 1525, and left in his will a modest amount; 12d to the 12 poorest people in town, a dish, etc.
Robert Warren was of Wyston (Winston?) Suffolk, left a will proved Feb 1545/5, with his own property and not much else (20s to a daughter, etc).

Nothing is known as to Robert's origins, but there is only wishful thinking to tie him to higher classes.

--Joe Cook

[joseph cook]

> > Honor Tucker, 1613-1684, England > Scituate, MA
> > Spouse: Cornet Robert Stetson,1615-1703, England > Scituate, MA
> > Line: John Tucker (Tooker) > John > Honer Erisey > Christina Grenville > Roger

I have not seen this line before...but it is (slightly) more interesting than the others.
Honor Tucker was baptized 28 Feb 1613 in Plymouth, Devon to one John Tucker.

It has been assumed this was the John Tucker who married Urith Dinnis in 1602 (Plymouth, Devon) since Honor's first child was named "Urith". OK. Not sufficient, but ok.

Then searching around Devon, I guess someone saw that there is the following couple in the Visitations of Devon, 1564:

William Tucker (of Exeter, Devon) and Honora Erissey. William Tucker is very well documented in DNB and elsewhere. And they jumped at the name "Honora" being in the family there.
In that visitation, they are listed with five sons, all of whom could potentially be a parent to John Tucker. There are two children named John of those five.

So, not really a lot to go on; more wishful thinking than anything else; but maybe more worth chasing down than the others..
--joe cook

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

The Throckmorton descent, specifically, is definitely wrong, though. As noted at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Throckmorton-26, Agnes Throckmorton Winslow had no sons.
Kay Allen said at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/qcpu4pDfphI/m/UCFxSglFiWQJ
that Agnes's husband Thonas may have had a younger brother who was ancestor of the Winslow brothers

[WADP]

I've lost count over how many potential gateway ancestors I've gone through. I've probably seriously investigated at least 12. Out of these some turned out to be just wishful thinking. Others right family, but wrong branch. Others just poor research. I had virtually given up on finding any ancestors whose roots would take me back to the aristocracy, let alone anyone like Charlemagne. Then one day while researching a newly discovered ancestor, Thomas Lawrence of Newtown, Long Island, I came across claims that he descended from Charlemagne. My initial reaction was yeah right. Tell me another story. However, I came across a genealogy that used as a reference Gary Boyd Roberts, whom I had never heard of before. When I found out that he was a professional genealogist that got my attention. I soon came across David L. Greene's article on the family and that clinched it. My point is that you can never tell when you might stumble across someone who just might turn out to be an established gateway ancestor or a totally new one for which you discover solid evidence for.

[David Heiden]

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 2:32:57 PM UTC-5, pdaw...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've lost count over how many potential gateway ancestors I've gone through. I've probably seriously investigated at least 12. Out of these some turned out to be just wishful thinking. Others right family, but wrong branch. Others just poor research. I had virtually given up on finding any ancestors whose roots would take me back to the aristocracy, let alone anyone like Charlemagne. Then one day while researching a newly discovered ancestor, Thomas Lawrence of Newtown, Long Island, I came across claims that he descended from Charlemagne. My initial reaction was yeah right. Tell me another story. However, I came across a genealogy that used as a reference Gary Boyd Roberts, whom I had never heard of before. When I found out that he was a professional genealogist that got my attention. I soon came across David L. Greene's article on the family and that clinched it. My point is that you can never tell when you might stumble across someone who just might turn out to be an established gateway ancestor or a totally new one for which you discover solid evidence for.

Yes, that's the situation I'm in, having been searching for years, even a couple of rejections. I'm bound to find my Charlemagne connection.

[Will Johnson]

Links to Charlemagne do not just suffer from bad hopping-the-pond conjectures.
Even if you get back to say 1300, you will confront dozens of conjectures that have bad or little evidence.
This is why we really need a sufficient way of indicating the probability of links

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

I checked all those on Wikitree and none appears to be substantiated.
However, there is an upcoming article on a possible Henry II descent for Margery Olliver, mother of the Winslow brothers.

[mike davis]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 5:37:09 PM UTC, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:

> Charlemagne has always evaded me as I have no relative on the approved Gateway List.

Where is this list? Is it on a website somewhere. Is this just for the USA? Is there
something similar compiled for other countries. A list of people with
verified descents from Charlemagne in the UK c1800 would be quite large I hope.

Mike

[Will Johnson]

There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne

https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html

I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
So caveat emptor.

[taf]

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 8:29:18 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

> I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.

Hard to evaluate with just names. There are some people listed for whom the most common claim of royal ancestry is unsupportable, but I don't know if there isn't another route that is indeed valid. Some of the obviously bogus ones are absent, which is a good thing. That said, I have also seen claims online that this society has formally recognized connection X, when connecion X has been recognized as false for eons (e.g. thet Gundred, was daughter of William the Conqueror), but one can never know if this represents their current position or is being cited from dated material.

taf

[Johnny Brananas]

This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900 with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.

[Nathan Murphy]

> There is a definitely a list of the "gateway ancestors" that are supposedly linked back to Charlemagne
>
> https://www.charlemagne.org/Gateway.html
>
> I cannot vouch for the credibility of this list, or even this society in general.
> So caveat emptor.

Thanks for the shout out Will. I inherited the list and now serve as the Order's genealogist. I haven't had a chance to review all the lines listed, but have worked through many of them.

Nathan

[Will Johnson]

Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?

[mike davis]

It would be useful to have their born and death dates alongside the names to help id, as many of them
are quite common. I was interested in Dr Charles Carroll; is he is the Dr Charles [d1755] who emigrated
from Ireland in 1715, and went on to establish his family at Mount Clare Md? I'm not sure but it seemed
that both his sons died childless, if so, any descendants could only come from his daughter Mary Clare
who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
from Charlemagne?

Mike

[John Higgins]

Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article"

[joseph cook]

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 11:29:18 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

The list is pretty accurate, as in it is based on some published research. It certainly is not a "complete" list; but obviously that is not the intent of the list at all.
--Joe Cook

[joseph cook]

Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ

Joe Cook

[Nathan Murphy]

> > Nathan
> Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?

Additions and deletions are made to the list as applications for membership are processed. I also add new gateways as they are discovered.

Nathan

[Nathan Murphy]

> Is there going to be at some point, an update that shows the actual line laid-out in full?

That is an interesting idea. There aren't plans to publish the entire lineages back to Charlemagne on the website at this time, but I'll keep that idea in mind.

Nathan

[Will Johnson]

Another useful point, might be to cite, for each name, an article that gives their parents, etc.

[mike davis]

Thanks for pointing out this line
Assuming the original poster was correct,
is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.

Mike

1. Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757, of Clonlisk, Co. Offaly,
Ireland, and Annapolis, Md., where he settled c. 1712.

2. Col.Charles Carroll, b. c. 1635, d. by 1712; of Clonlisk.
3. Clare Dunne (Clara ni Duinn, O'Duinn), fl. 1691-1712.

4. John O'Carroll, b. 1596, fl. 1663, of Clonlisk Castle; last
recognized Lord or Chief of Ely O'Carroll.
5. Mary Dillon, fl. 1631-63.
6. Charles Dunne (O'Duinn), c. 1620-1681, of Brittas, Co. Leix.
7. Margaret Coghlan (ni Cochlain, MacCoghlan).

8. Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll, killed 1595; of Tewriske, Co.
Offaly.
9. Margaret ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
10. Sir Lucas Dillon, fl. l612-53, d. by 1659; of Loughglynn and
Ballymacmorough, Co. Roscommon; member of the Supreme Council of
the Irish Catholic (Kilkenny) Confderation.
11. Jane Moore, fl. 1659.
12. Barnaby Dunne (Brian Og O'Duinn), c. 1593-1661, of Brittas,
Co. Laois.
13. _____ Fitzgerald.
14. Toirdhealbach MacCochlain (Terence Coghlan, MacCoghlan), fl.
1523, d. 1653; of Kilcolgan Castle, Rachra Castle, etc., Co.
Offaly.
15. Mary Dillon, fl. 1635-65.

16. Tadhg O'Carroll, fl. 1568, d. by 1580; of Lemyvanan (Leap)
Castle, Co. Offaly.
17. "a Galway lady."
18. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, Co. Laois, d. 1606/7.
19. Elizabeth Fitzgerald.
20. Sir Theobald Dillon, 1st Viscount Dillon of Costello-Gallen,
fl. 1582, d. 1624.
21. Eleanor Tuite, d. 1638.
22. Sir John Moore, fl. 1560, d. 1631; of Brees, Co. Mayo; Cloghan
Castle, Co. Offaly, etc.; Clerk of the Crown for Coinnaught.
23. Mary Burke, d. 1624.
24. Brian O'Duinn, d. 1614; of Brittas, Co. Laois.
25. _____ ni Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy).
26. James Fitzgerald, d. 1602; of Kilrush and Dunmorughell, Co.
Kildare.
27. _____ ni Duinn (O'Duinn).
28. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1591, d. 1642; of Kincora Castle,
Co. Offaly; Chief of the Sliocht (sept) Fearghaill MacCochlain.
29. Meadhg ni Maonaigh (Maud O'Mooney).
30. Robert Dillon, b. c. 1575, fl. 1641; of Cannerstown Castle,
Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
31. Margaret Dillon.

32. Sir William Odhar O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed
1581.
33. Sadhbh ni Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick), fl.
1568.
36. Tadhg Riabhach (Fuscus, the Swarthy) O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan,
fl. 1540-72.
37. _____ ni Muiris (MacMorish).
38. James Fitzgerald, fl. 1520-61, d. by 1568; of Ballyshannon
Castle and Blackwood, Co. Kildare.
39. Katherine Eustace.
40. Thomas Maol (the Bald) Dillon, fl. 1535; of Ballynakill,
Dillon's country, Co. Westmeath.
42. William Buidhe (the Yellow-Haired) Tuite, fl. 1572-88; of
Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
43. Margaret Fitzgerald.
46. Sir Richard Burke, 2d Earl of Clanricarde, 2d Baron Dunkellin,
c. 1530-1582.
47. Margaret O'Brien, d. 1568.
48-49. same as nos. 18-19.
50. Cathaoir MacFerganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (Cahir MacFirr O'Molloy),
of Ballyboy, Co. Offaly.
52. Sir Maurice Fitzgerald, c. 1526-1575, of Lackagh and
Norraghbegg, Co. Kildare.
53. Margaret Butler.
54-55. same as nos. 18-19.
56. James Og MacCochlain, fl. 1540-57; of Feddan and Kincora, Co.
Offaly.
57. Sile ni Diomusaigh (O'Dempsey).
58. Sean O'Maonaigh (John O'Mooney), of Eskercastle, Co. Offaly.
60. Thomas Dillon, d. 1593; of Arnacrany and Kilmackeron, Co.
Westmeath; Chamberlain of the Irish Exchequer.
61. Margaret Cashell, fl. 1581-88.
62-63. same as nos. 20-21.

64. Ferganainm O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll, killed 1541.
66. Sir Brian Mac Giolla Phadraig (MacGillapatrick, Fitzpatrick),
Lord of Upper Ossory, 1st Baron Upper Ossory, fl. 1511, d. 1575.
67. Margaret Butler, fl. 1529-42, d. by 1551.
72. Tadhg Og O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1537-41.
73. Gormliath ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
76. Sir Gerald MacShane Fitzgerald, d. 1533/4; of Cloncurry,
Blackwood and Ballyshannon Castle, Co. Kildare.
77. Grainne ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
78. Sir Thomas Eustace, 1st Viscount Baltinglass, 1st Baron
Kilcullen, c. 1480-1549.
79. Margaret Talbot.
80. James Dillon, an Prior Mor (the Great Prior), fl. 1500-1550;
of Ballynakill, Dillon's Country, Co. Westmeath; prior in
commendam of St. John Baptist, Kilkenny West.
81. _____ Dowling.
84. Sir Richard Tuite, d. 1565; of Tuitestown, Co. Westmeath.
85. Ellen Barnewall.
86. Gerald (Garret Og) Fitzgerald, d. c. 1541; of Croboy, Co.
Meath.
87. Marian St. Lawrence, fl. 1541.
92. Sir Ulikc Burke (Uilleag na-gCeann, Ulick of the Heads), Lord
of Clanricarde, 1st Earl of Clanricarde, 1st Baron Dunkellin, d.
1544.
93. Grainne ni Cearbhaill (O'Carroll).
94. Sir Donnchadh Mor (Donough the Fat) O'Brien, 2d Earl of
Thomond, 1st Baron Ibracken, d. 1553.
95. Ellen Butler, c. 1520-1597.
100. Ferganainm O'Maolmhuaidh (O'Molloy), fl. 1558; of Ballyboy,
Co. Offaly.
101. Sadhbh ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
104. Thomas Fitzgerald, d. 1553; of Lackagh and Norraghbegg, Co.
Kildare.
105. Eleanor Delahide.
106. The Most Rev. Edmund Butler, O.S. Trin., d. 1551; prior in
commendam of Athassel, Co. Tipperary; Archbishop of Cashel,
1525-51.
112. James Og Maccochlain, d. 1540; of Feddan Castle, Co. Offaly.
116. Ruaidhri O'Maonaigh (O'Mooney), fl. 1558; of Eskercastle, Co.
Offaly.
120. Sir Robert Dillon, c. 1500-1580, of Newtown near Trim, Co.
Westmeath, and Dublin; Attorney General of Ireland; Justice of the
Court of Queen's Bench; Chief Justice of the Court of Common
Pleas, 1559-80.
121. Genet Barnewall.
122. Stephen Cashell, fl. 1538, d. 1564; of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
123. Margaret St. Lawrence.

128. Maolruanaidh Mor O'Carroll. Lord of Ely O'Carroll, d. 1532.
129. _____ ni Murchadha Caomhanach (MacMorough Kavanagh).
132. Brian na-Luireach (Brian of the Shirts of Mail) Mac Giolla
Phadraig (MacGillapatrick), Lord of Upper Ossory, d. c. 1511.
133. Noirin (Honora) ni Mordha (O'More).
134. Sir Piers Ruadh (the Red) Butler, 8th Earl of Ormonde, 1st
Earl of Ossory, c. 1467-1539.
135. Margaret Fitzgerald, fl. 1485, d. 1542.
144. Tadhg MacLaighneach O'Duinn, Lord of Iregan, fl. 1475.
145. Ellin Le Poer.
146. Cathaoir O'Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley), Lord of
Offaly, killed 1511.
142. Sir John (Shane) Fitzgerald, d. 1466; of Cloncurry, Co.
Kildare.
143. Fenole ni Conchobhair Failghe (O'Conor Faley).
154. Gearalt Mac Murchadha Caomhanach (Gerald MacMorough
Kavanagh), constable of Carlow Castle, 1495.
156. Sir Richard fitzEustace, fl. 1479-1500; of Harristown Castle,
Co. Kildare.
157. Anne FitzEustace.
158. Sir Peter Talbot, d. 1529; lord of Malahide, Co. Dublin.
159. Catherine Fitzgerald.
160. Sir Gerald (Garret) Dillon, of Dunimony Castle, Co.
Westmeath; fl. 1532.
161. _____ Fitzgerald.
168. Sir Edward Tuite, 1467-1531, of Monylea, Co. Westmeath.
169. Margaret Fitzgerald.
172. Same as no. 76.
173. Katherine Plunkett.
174. Sir Nicholas St. Lawrence, 3d Baron Howth, fl. 1478, d, 1526.
175. Alice Fitzsimons.
184. Richard Mor Burke, Lord of Clanricarde, d. 1530.
185. _____ ni Madain (O'Madden).
186. Same as no. 128.
187. _____ ni Ceinedigh Fionn (O'Kennedy Finn).
188. Conchobhair (Conor) O'Brien, King of Thomond, d. 1539.
189. Margaret (or Annabel) Burke, d. by 1539.
190-191. same as nos. 134-135.
200. Dohnaill O'Maolmuaidh (Donal O'Molloy), of Co. Offaly.
208. Sir Mauricce Fitzgerald, killed 1520; of Lackagh, Co.
Kildare; Lord Deputy of Ireland, 1519-20.
209. Anne FitzEustace.
210. Sir James Delahide, of Moyclare Castle, Co. Kildare.
211. Rose Hussey.
212. same as no. 134.
213. _____Hackett.
224. James MacCochlain, killed v.p. 1510; prior of the monastery
of Gallen, Co. Offaly.
232. Eoghan O'Maonaigh (Owen O'Mooney).
240. James Dillon, fl. 1477-79, d. by 1507; of Monktown and
Riverston, Co. Meath; First Baron of the Irish Exchequer.
241. Elizabeth Bathe.
242. Edward Barnewall, d. 1511; of Crickstown Castle and
Kilmessan, Co. Meath; Chancellor of the Exchequer.
243. Elizabeth Plunkett.
244. Leonard Cashell, of Dundalk, Co. Louth.
246. Sir Christopher St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, c. 1482-1542,
of Howth, Co. Dublin.
247. Anne Bermingham, heiress of Baldongan Castle, etc., Co.
Dublin.

[Leslie Mahler]

You can find most of the details here:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Magna_Carta_Ancestry_A_Study_in_Colonial/8JcbV309c5UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=abbott+anne+mauleverer+nottingham&pg=PR23&printsec=frontcover

Leslie

[Olivier]

Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
&771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
|
Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
&819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
|
Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
&842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
|
Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
&ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
|
Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
& Ne de Narbonne
|
Gerberge du Maine 915-953
&937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960
|
Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
&ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
|
Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
&ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
|
Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
&1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
|
Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
&1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123
|
Élisabeth (Capétiens) 1085-1131
&1118 William, comte de Warenne 1070/-1138
|
Reginald de Warenne, Lord of Mortemer †1178/
& Adeliza de Wormegay, Lady of Wormegay †1179/
|
William de Warenne, Lord of Wormegay †1208/1209
& Béatrice de Pierrepont
|
Beatrice de Warenne †/1214
& Hubert de Burgh, Earl of Kent †1243
|
John de Burgh †1274
&ca 1227 Hawise de Lanvallay †/1249
|
Margaret de Burgh †1304
&/1281 Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster ca 1259-1326
|
Joan de Burgh †1359
&1329 John le Neveu Darcy, Lord of Knayth †1347
|
Anne Darcy †1389
&1346 James Butler, Earl of Ormond 1331-1382
|
Joan Butler †1383
& Tadhg Aibhle O'Carroll †1407
|
Maolruanaidh na feasóige O'Carroll, Lord of Ely O'Carroll †1443
& Bibiana O'Dempsey †1490/
|
John O'Carroll
& Ne Macnamara
|
Mulroney O'Carroll †1532
& Ne Kavanagh
|
Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541
& Elizabeth Fitzgerald
|
William O'Carroll †1581
& Sabine Fitzpatrick
|
Tadhg O'Carroll
& x x
|
Maolruanaidh MacTadhg O'Carroll †1595
& Margaret O'Duinn
|
John O'Carroll
& Mary Dillon
|
Charles O'Carroll †1695
& Clare Dunne
|
Charles Carroll 1691-1755

[Olivier]

&1312 Thomas FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare †1328
|
Maurice FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare ?1318-1390
& Elizabeth de Burghersh
|
John Cam FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare †1434
& Margaret de La Herne
|
Thomas The Great Earl FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare †1478
& Joan Cam FitzGerald †1486
|
Gerald Mor The Great Earl FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare 1456-1513
& Alice Eustace †1495
|
Garret Öge FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare 1487-1534
& Elizabeth La Zouche †1517
|
Elizabeth Fitzgerald
& Ferganainm O'Carroll †1541

[mike davis]

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
> Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
> > > > who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
> > > > from Charlemagne?
> > > Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757
> > > https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ
> > >
> > > Joe Cook
> > Thanks for pointing out this line
> > Assuming the original poster was correct,
> > is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
> > was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
> > Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
> > who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.
> >
> > Mike

<snip>

> Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
> &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
> |
> Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
> &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
> |
> Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
> &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
> |
> Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
> &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907

very good of you to post this descent, but I havnt seen this daughter mentioned before.
AIUI, Charles had 4 daughters by his 1st wife: Judith, Hildegarde, Ermintrude & Gisela

> |
> Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
> & Ne de Narbonne
> |
> Gerberge du Maine 915-953
> &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960

I thought Fulks wife was Roscille de Loches

Mike

[David Heiden]

If this is one of one of my potential lines
Johanna Richards 1621 (w/o Ens. John Spring, 1678), MA
Mary Colburn, 1650, MA
Nathaniel Colburn, 1589, Eng & MA
Benjamin Colburn, 1589
Betha Boleyn, ?-1694
Samuel Boleyn, 1617
Samuel Boleyn, 1591
George Boleyn, 1537
George Boleyn, 1504
Thomas Boleyn
Margaret Butler
Thomas 7th Butler
James 4th Butler
James 3rd Butler
James 2nd Butler
Eleanor de Bohun >
Elizabeth Plantagenet >
Edward I Longshanks, King of England

[Olivier]

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ANJOU,%20MAINE.htm#_ftnref61

[Leslie Mahler]

The ancestry of Nathaniel Colburn, who was baptized in 1611,
not 1589, was documented back in 1999. He was a son of
Leonard Colborne of Woolverstone, Suffolk. The rest of the lineage
posted here looks like undocumented rubbish.

If you rely on unsourced material on the internet,
you're going to fail every time.

Leslie

[John Higgins]

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 8:11:40 AM UTC-8, dahe...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:30:33 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
> > On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 12:45:24 PM UTC, Olivier wrote:
> > > Le vendredi 17 décembre 2021 à 01:04:45 UTC+1, mike davis a écrit :
> > > > > > who married [1747] Nicholas Macubbin of Annapolis. Does anyone know how Dr Charles was descended
> > > > > > from Charlemagne?
> > > > > Yes, Dr. Charles Carroll, c. 1691-1757
> > > > > https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/O1YH9j6avRc/m/YLOJJ4igIXYJ
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe Cook
> > > > Thanks for pointing out this line
> > > > Assuming the original poster was correct,
> > > > is the connection to Charlemagne via the Butlers or is there another link? I think Piers Butler [no 134]
> > > > was descended from Edward I and he via Matilda of Flanders back to Judith to Charles the Bald etc.
> > > > Butlers intermarried with many irish families so there must be many 000s of irish families around
> > > > who can now claim descent from Charlemagne.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > <snip>

[unrelated line snipped]

> If this is one of one of my potential lines
> Johanna Richards 1621 (w/o Ens. John Spring, 1678), MA
> Mary Colburn, 1650, MA
> Nathaniel Colburn, 1589, Eng & MA
> Benjamin Colburn, 1589
> Betha Boleyn, ?-1694
> Samuel Boleyn, 1617
> Samuel Boleyn, 1591
> George Boleyn, 1537
> George Boleyn, 1504
> Thomas Boleyn
> Margaret Butler
> Thomas 7th Butler
> James 4th Butler
> James 3rd Butler
> James 2nd Butler
> Eleanor de Bohun >
> Elizabeth Plantagenet >
> Edward I Longshanks, King of England

Thomas Boleyn, son of Margaret Butler, is certainly Sir Thomas Boleyn, father of Queen Anne Boleyn. His son George was beheaded at roughly the same time as his sister the Queen - and is well-documented to have had no issue. so the Boleyns said to be descended from him are clearly garbage - or at least not related to the first George.

As Leslie Mahler said: "If you rely on unsourced material on the internet, you're going to fail every time."

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 5:56:34 AM UTC-8, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

I ask again:

Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an "upcoming article"?

[Peter Stewart]

On 17-Dec-21 11:45 PM, Olivier wrote:

<snip>

> Charles I, empereur d'Occident 747-814
> &771 Hildegarde, comtesse de Vintschgau 758-783
> |
> Louis, empereur d'Occident 778-840
> &819 Judith von Bayern ca 800-843
> |
> Charles II, empereur d'Occident 823-877
> &842 Ermentrude d'Orléans 830-869
> |
> Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
> &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907

I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

> |
> Godefroi du Maine, comte du Gâtinais †/946
> & Ne de Narbonne
> |
> Gerberge du Maine 915-953
> &937 Foulques le Bon, comte d'Anjou 910-960

Ditto for wherever (if not the same) you came across this imaginary
genealogy - Gerberge the wife of Fulco II of Anjou is the subject of
various conjectures, but her family origin remains unknown.

> Adélaïde d'Anjou ca 946-1026
> &ca 984 Guillaume de Provence, comte d'Arles ca 950-993/
> |
> Constance d'Arles 987..989-1032
> &ca 1003 Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs 972-1031
> |
> Henri I, roi des Francs 1008-1060
> &1051 Anna Iaroslavna (Rurikides) ca 1032-1075/
> |
> Hugues, comte de Vermandois 1057-1102
> &1077 Adélaïde, comtesse de Vermandois ca 1065-1120..1123

Datings given in your lineage are not much more accurate than the
identifications - Hugues of Vermandois died of battle wounds at Tarsus
on 18 October 1101, not in the following year.

Peter Stewart

[David Heiden]

Do you have Nathaniel’s line? I’m certain about his daughter Mary’s line to me. She married John Richards, their daughter Johanna married John Spring.

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/25287/images/dvm_GenMono006566-00045-0?pId=80

[David Heiden]

What about the Whitney line I have a John Whitney 1588/Eleanor Arnold with two sons John and Joshua

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

> Can you provide more details on this "upcoming" article? What is your source for this information about an upcoming article?
Sorry. I hadn't noticed your reply. Martin Hollick informed me of this. It's by a friend of his who got a PhD in history and also loves genealogy. He wrote the article on Susannah Jackson White Winslow in 2018 in The American Genealogist. The upcoming article is presumably in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register, though

[Olivier]

> > Godehilde (Carolingiens) 865
> > &ca 889 Godefroi, comte du Maine ca 860-907
> I suggest that you junk (if online) or incinerate (if in print) wherever
> you found these fictitious personages. Charles the Bald had no daughter
> named Godehilde and there was no count of Maine ca 860-907 named
> Godefroi. By his second marriage Charles had a daughter named Rothilde
> who married count Roger, whose possession of Le Mans was briefly
> interrupted when the city was entrusted to a count and royal constable
> named Gauzlin (possibly twisted into the origin of your false Godefroi,
> though certainly not of the long tenure ascribed to him).

Source : https://www.theses.fr/2010LEMA3010

[Will Johnson]

This next George Bolyn 1537 is clearly meant to be this man

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Boleyn,_George_(d.1603)

There *is* a theory that he is a son of the prior George, as per this article.

[John Higgins]

Here is what CP (vol. 10 p. 142 note e) has to say about the article in the turn-of-the century edition of DNB cited above:

"The Dict. Nat. Biog. states that George Boleyn, Dean of Lichfield (d. 1603), was not improbably his son [referring to George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford], but the arguments for this affiliation are inconclusive."

Here is what the more recent [online] edition of ODNB says about this George Boleyn. The article from which this section is excerpted is dated 3 January 2008.

"Boleyn, George (d. 1603), dean of Lichfield, is often said to have been the son of Jane Boleyn, née Parker (d. 1542), and George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford, executed in 1536 on a charge of incest with his sister, Queen Anne Boleyn. In his will of 1603, George Boleyn refers to Sir William Knollys, grandson of Mary Boleyn, Queen Anne's sister, as his kinsman, but the fact that Rochford's inquisition post-mortem names Mary, rather than George, as his heir throws doubt on the supposition that George was his son, or at any rate on George's legitimacy. Considering the Boleyn family's difficult political position in the years after the queen's execution, it is perhaps not surprising that George's ancestry should have remained unacknowledged, and that he seems to have been bitter about the loss of his inheritance."

Draw your own conclusions... It would be useful to know what sources say about the descent from this George Boleyn - and what those sources say about the parentage of this George Boleyn.

[John Higgins]

Thanks for this information. However, I've checked the table of contents for each issue of TAG in 2018 and I can find no indication of an article regarding Susannah Jackson White Winslow. The table of contents for each of the issues of TAG for 2018 can be found at this website (each is a PDF):
https://americangenealogist.com/contents/recent-issues/

Can you help? Are you sure you've got the right magazine for the 2018 article?

[JBrand]

Oct. 2017 issue. The authors are Sue Allan, Caleb Johnson (FASG), and Simon Neal.

[John Higgins]

Thanks, John - I found the article.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Sorry, Martin Hollick told me this in 2020 and said the article had been 3 years earlier. I counted from 2021 though, giving me 2018, instead of 2017.

[mike davis]

I was unable to search this doc, so couldnt find the maine connection. A lot
of the charts and trees look like theyve been copied from Settipani/Chaume etc
but without the dotted lines. However I think there is a carolingian descent
for the counts of Maine but via Rothildis the daughter of Richildis and
Charles the Bald who I believe is assumed to have married Rotgar/Roger II
of Le Mans, and their son was Hugo I of Maine. I'm not sure of the details but I
think it was Werner who established this. Perhaps someone with access
to the relevant volume of Karl der Grosse [1965] can confirm.

Mike

[christine lebas]

There are 2 pdf :
http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf

[Hans Vogels]

Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:

Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
Not something you browse easily through.
Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

Hans Vogels

[Stewart Baldwin]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 2:38:47 AM UTC-6, hansvog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op donderdag 23 december 2021 om 00:18:18 UTC+1 schreef christine lebas:

> > There are 2 pdf :
> > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_1.pdf
> > http://cyberdoc.univ-lemans.fr/theses/2010/2010LEMA3010_2.pdf
> Whow, quite a thesis, 1176 p.
> Not something you browse easily through.
> Part 2 has a lot of genealogical charts and maps and a short English summary (last half page).

There is plenty of reason for skepticism here. The thesis has a huge number of very sweeping conclusions regarding a large number of thinly documented individuals, many of whom have been the subject of considerable controversy and/or alternate mutually contradictory theories. A variation of the old "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" warning would be appropriate here.

Stewart Baldwin

[mike davis]

Sifting through this is like entering a sort of onomastic hell! However I dont think
this author is the source for the Carolingian-Maine-Gatinais connection as proposed
earlier. The origin of the Counts of the Gatinais who became ancestors of the
plantagenets is a vexed question with a number of theories being proposed.

I hadnt seen the Charles the Bald -- supposed daughter -- Count of Maine ---
Count of Gatinais theory before, but Doumerc the author here proposes something
quite different. He mentions Settipani's theory that the origin of the Gatinais family
was Gausfred Count of Nevers 935-40, who was maybe the same as a contemporary
viscount of Orleans, but he suggests a very different ancestry for Gausfred.

Instead Doumerc [p579-83] says Gausfred was descended from Bernard Marquis
de Gothia 865-78 [d880]. He says BdG was father of a woman called Ema who had
a quarrel with Adalgar Bishop of Autun in 889. This Ema he says was the same as
the Hemmena wife of a Waldric who were the parents of Waldric bishop of Auxerre
918-33. Gausfred of Nevers was Bishop Waldrics brother. He then postulates that
Gausbert Bishop of Nevers 948-55 was another brother, and a another was called
Bernard. Furthermore, Eva the wife of Gausfred of Nevers was the niece of William
the Pious, which he references from Settipani's work on Aquitaine which I havnt
seen. This is rather dense reading matter so I hope I havnt misrepresented
anything.

This all seems highly speculative. Plus I believe Gausbert bishop of Nevers
is called the brother of Guy Bishop of Auxerre 933-61, and Guys parents are
named as Boso and Abigail in the Deeds of the Bishops of Auxerre, something
Doumerc mentions but disregards. Often these sort of works seem to confuse
matters further rather than clarifying.

Despite this in arbre 103 & 104 in vol2, he has, I assume, Settipani's version of
Gausfred of Nevers descent:

Gausfred of Maine d878
|
Gausfred I vct of Orleans 885/6
|
Gausfred II vct of Orleans, Count of Nevers & Auxerre 935-36

In arbre 99 there is also this

Ermentrude [sister of Charles the simple] m Count Gausbert fl912
|
Cunegunde m Wigeric

Merry Xmas

Mike

[Gail Peterson]

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 1:48:05 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> This looks to me like the table of contents from Gary Boyd Roberts' _Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants_, with everyone who arrived after about 1700 removed. There are a few additions or differences (for instance, Humphrey Warren is not shown in RD900 with a royal line, though Gary provides a brief discussion of the problems with the claimed line). Notice that the French Canadians in Gary's book have been interspersed at the appropriate alphabetical point.

So there are "problems" with Humphrey Warren's line? I thought that line was pretty solid and well-documented.

~Gail

[Gail Peterson]

Never mind--I found the previous discussion on the subject. Sorry for jumping the gun here..
~Gail