Evan Ragland Lineage
marianne dillow
A dfiffernt Evan Ragland lineage:
Starting here:
I. William de Warren m. Isabel dau of Hugh Magnus, son of Henry I, King of France and Anne, Priness of Kiev
II. William de Warren 1119-1148, m. Adelia dau of William III, Talvacs, Count of Ponthieu, d 1172
III. Isabel de Warren m.1163 to Hameline Plantagenet, base son of Geoffrey IV, Plantagenet, Hameline d. 1202.
IV. Isabel Plantagenet m. Roger Bigod 1150-1221, Magna Carta Surety
V. Hugh Bigod 1190-1225, Magna Carta Surety, m. Maud dau of William Marshall, Lord High Marshal of England, d. 1219.
VI. Isabel Bigod m. John Fitzgeoffrey, Lord High Justice of Ireland, d 1258.
VII. Maud Fitzgeoffrey m. William de Beauchamp. 7th Earl of Warwick & Elmley Castle, d 1298.
VIII. Sarah Beauchamp m. Sir Richard Talbot, Governor of Cardiff Castle, d 1306.
IX. Gwenllian Talbot m. Sir Payne Turberville, Lord of Coyty Castle, d 1339.
I
I
The lines split here because of the above marriage:
i. Catherine Turberville m. Sir William Berkerolles, Lord of East Orchard manor, Gwent
ii. Wenlliam Berkerolles m. Sir Edward Stradling, Lord of St. Donat's Castle, living in 1367.
iii. Sir William Stradling, m. Isabel dau of John st. Barre, Lord of South Brent, Somerset, Eng.
iv. William Sradling, Lord of Merthyr & Ruthyn manors, Glamorgan
v. Agnes Stradling m 1422 to William ap Jevan ap Jenkin (Kemeys), Constable of Newport, purchased Rogerstone and Sutton manors in Gwent and Westgate House in Newport, d. 1458.
vi. William Kemeys, of Westgate House, Newport, m. Elizabeth dau of Sir William de la Bere, Knt of Gloucester.
vii. William Kemeys of Westgate House, Newport, m. Elizabeth dau of Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip, Lordof Langstone Manor,
viii. Cecil Kemeys m. Howell Carne, Lord of Nash manor, Glamorgan, living in 1518.
ix.Mary Carne m. Thomas Raglan, Lord of Llys-y-Fronydd manor, Lsyworney, Glamorgan, d 1565.
x. John Ragland of St. Decuman's Parish, Somerset, Eng, m. Alice Kingsonn... they are the great grandparents of Evan Ragland, immigrant, to Va. m Susanna Pettus.
Where the line splits above due to the following marriage:.
Gwenllian Talbot m. Sir PayneTurberville, Lord. of Coyty Castle, Glamorgan, d 1339.
i. Sarah Turberville, m. William de Gamages, Lord of Rogiad, Sheriff of Gloucestershire in 1325.
ii. Gilbert de Gamages, Lord of Rogiad, St. Denis manors in Gwent, d 1382, m. Lettice dau of Sir William Seymour, Lord of Penhow Castle, Gwent.
iii. Sir William de Gamage, succeeded to Coyty Castle, m. Mary dau of Sir Thomas Rodburgh, Knt of Cardiff.
iv. Thomas Gamage, Lord of Coyty Castle, m Matilda dau of Sir John Denis, Knt of Gower in Glamorgan
v. Sir John Gamage, Lord of Coyty Castle, had lands in Miscin, Glamorgan, m. Margaret dau of Morgan ap Llewelyn, son of Llewelyn ap Howel.
vi. Margaret Gamage m. William Matthew, Lord of Castell-y-Mynach, Glamorgan
vii. Alice Matthew m Robert Raglan, Gent. of Llys-y-Fronydd manor, Lysworney
This hooks back up to Thomas Raglan above that m. Mary Carne... Son .. John Ragland of St. Decuman's Parish, d 1605 m. Alice Kingsonn.. great grandparents of Evan Ragland.
Marianne Dillow
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/28/2008 6:59:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mdil...@verizon.net writes:
III. Isabel de Warren m.1163 to Hameline Plantagenet, base son of Geoffrey
IV, Plantagenet, Hameline d. 1202.
IV. Isabel Plantagenet m. Roger Bigod 1150-1221, Magna Carta Surety
V. Hugh Bigod 1190-1225, Magna Carta Surety, m. Maud dau of William
Marshall, Lord High Marshal of England, d. 1219.>>
---------------------------------------------------
This is problematic.
Could you state your source that Hugh Bigod's mother was Isabel Plantagenet
daughter of Geoffrey ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
Kristie Davis
Marianne,
I will send you some pictures of Raglan; it is quite beautiful.
-----Original Message-----
From: marianne dillow [mailto:mdil...@verizon.net]
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 9:59 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Evan Ragland Lineage
Evan Ragland is the immigrant to Virginia in New Kent county. He descends
from Sir Thomap William of Raglan Castle in Monmouth south Wales. They were
in Glamorgan also then moved to Somerset County, England. Church records in
england are located in St. Decuman amd Stogumber parishses.
A dfiffernt Evan Ragland lineage:
Starting here:
I. William de Warren m. Isabel dau of Hugh Magnus, son of Henry I, King of
France and Anne, Priness of Kiev II. William de Warren 1119-1148, m. Adelia
dau of William III, Talvacs, Count of Ponthieu, d 1172 III. Isabel de Warren
m.1163 to Hameline Plantagenet, base son of Geoffrey IV, Plantagenet,
Hameline d. 1202.
IV. Isabel Plantagenet m. Roger Bigod 1150-1221, Magna Carta Surety V. Hugh
Bigod 1190-1225, Magna Carta Surety, m. Maud dau of William Marshall, Lord
High Marshal of England, d. 1219.
marianne dillow
Thanks for the pictures !!
Marianne Dillow
--- On Fri, 11/28/08, Kristie Davis <gir...@earthlink.net> wrote:
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
D. Spencer Hines
Charge of the Light Brigade_.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FitzRoy_Somerset,_1st_Baron_Raglan>
And Raglan sleeves.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raglan_sleeve>
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"marianne dillow" <mdil...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1820.1227932...@rootsweb.com...
marianne dillow
Thanks Spencer,
I didn't know about him. Evan Ragland was the immigrant and he was born in Somerset County, England at St. Decumans in 1656 and died in New Kent County, Va in 1717.
The information is appreciated. :)
Marianne Dillow
--- On Fri, 11/28/08, D. Spencer Hines <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FitzRoy_Somerset,_1st_Baron_Raglan>
And Raglan sleeves.
D. Spencer Hines
But I don't know that Lord Raglan and the emigrant to Virginia were
related.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"marianne dillow" <mdil...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1823.1227934...@rootsweb.com...
marianne dillow
Tony Hoskins
ancestry - other than the oft-cited genealogy.
Ragland Castle is indeed a magnificent and evocative ruin; I visited it
as a young person, my grandmother having been born nearby. I am however
unaware of any Raglan(d) family descending from the Bluett, Herbert,
Somerset families, builders and owners of Raglan Castle.
The echoes of this "connection" sound from here to be suspiciciously
too much of the "name's-the-same/similar" variety for my comfort.
Grateful for more information.
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
marianne dillow
The two volumes on the Ragland's are comprehensive. I just have to take it as it is because I can't make a trip over the pond. :)
Yes, it still fairly nice looking as a ruin of the wars. The color in the rocks fascinate me.
Marianne Dillow
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Tony Hoskins <hos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
From: Tony Hoskins <hos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
WJho...@aol.com
mdil...@verizon.net writes:
The two volumes on the Ragland's are comprehensive. I just have to take it
as it is >>
-----------------------
We could take your work for that. But then that's what starts all the
trouble.
So a better way would be to quote what the volumes actually state, and what
documentation they cite to state that.
Many volumes are "comprehensive" and comprehensively faulty.
marianne dillow
Marianne Dillow
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, marianne dillow <mdil...@verizon.net> wrote:
Gordon and Jane Kirkemo
>From Vol. 2 of the Ragland genealogy (page 71), comes the following:
"Robert ap Jevan, alias Robert Raglan, esq., second son of Jevan ap Thomas (
-1416), was the first member of the Herbert Clan to assume the surname of
Raglan (d). Born at Perthyre manor around the year 1408 he was orphaned at
the age of eight. For a short period following the death of his father,
Robert lived with his grandfather at Perthyre but soon moved to Raglan
castle, the family seat of his uncle, Sir William ap Thomas, knt. At Raglan
he received, as a member of Sir William's family, an education befitting his
station and grew to manhood. Robert remained at Raglan until sometime after
his marriage when he moved with his family to Glamorgan. In deference to
his English upbringing at Raglan, he dropped the Welsh name form at the time
of his removal and assumed the surname of Raglan(d), denoting the place from
whence he came, but at the same time distinguishing his family from those of
Sir William's sons who had adopted the Herbert surname."
I hope this is helpful and responds to your concern about "the name's the
same."
Sincerely,
Gordon
D. Spencer Hines
That sounds quite laughable -- and formulaically charlatanesque -- but
delightfully inventive.
Where's the Genealogical EVIDENCE for all this folderol?
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <kir...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1927.1228098...@rootsweb.com...
M.Sjostrom
I see this 'Ragland' from 'Raglan castle' is again one of those cases where some have a passion for proclaiming an unsupported lineage.
Thus far, the critical points in that descent, these points which ruin the desired direct descent from some prominent people,
have been presented like guesses, and no tangible proof has been quoted.
Rather, the proofs parroted thus far, resemble all too much those witnessings made in religious frenzy by persons who are 'giving evidence' about their whatever religious experience.
And, indeed, if this lineage is a *religious* belief to some, it better to remain in that category. Many people regard themselves as children of their god. Let this be one of such filiations, if proper proof does not exist in this material world.
However, proponents of this Ragland lineage should note that no amount of parroting, nor of 'witnessing', is going to convince about validity of this lineage, if tangible, identifiable near-contemporary evidence is not presented properly.
marianne dillow
Hi there,
There were only 300 copies made of the Ragland book. It can be used for genealogy but not for commercial purposes. I would like to make a suggestion that one should read the book and evaluate it before one judges it. There are sources given in it plus it took 20 years of research before it was published in 1978,. One person found both volumes at a nearby library and gave a fairly good evaluation of it. I don't understand how one makes a judgment on something they have never seen.
There is history given as well as genealogy. The author, Chalres J, Ragland wrote, p. 4,.
" I have traveled many thousands of miles, written over a thousand letters, and reviewed, perhaps, a million or more pages of official and family records. ... The same extensive research was conducted for me by several genealogists in Britain. The results have been one hundred and fifteen files containing over three thousand type written pages of data....... , p. 5... " Out of necessity, I have greatly broadened my knowledge of the social
history of America and Britain and have acquired a number of skills which I had not previously possessed. For example, the location, interpretation, and analysis of British data required that I not only become proficient in deciphering Medieval English script and spelling usage, but also acquire some knowledge of Latin and Welsh. Even then, my success would have been no more partial without a good working knowledge of the legal institutions, instuments, and the semi-governmental role of the Church during the late Middle Ages. While much of what I needed to know was obtained from a few authoritative works, many obscure facts, unobtainable in any printed work, were furnished to me by British archivists and genealogists who with a great deal of patience answered my many questions with detailed explanations and suggestions.".... Charles J. Ragland."
I think that is quite a great amount of research work and was taken seriously and not an attempt to be kin to someone famous. :) For example, I also am looking at sources, which are examples of me, making my point, .... such as Lewis Dunn's Visitation of Wales, 1586 and 1613; Clark's Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae, Llyfr Baglan, etc, etc....... onto Somerset County, England where church records were found in St. Decuman and Stogumber parishes.
Evan Ragland , son of Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan who married in 1654, and Evan's birth record was found there among other family records at St. Decuman and Stogumber parishes, and Evan immigrated to New Kent County, Virginia . Evan Ragland attended St. Peter and St. Paul's parishes in New Kent County, Virginia. His death record in St. Paul's Register, states " Evan Ragland departed this life May ye 30th 1717."
Marianne Dillow
- On Sun, 11/30/08, D. Spencer Hines <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
From: D. Spencer Hines <pan...@excelsior.com>
Nathaniel Taylor
"Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <kir...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Tony,
>
> >From Vol. 2 of the Ragland genealogy (page 71), comes the following:
>
> "Robert ap Jevan, alias Robert Raglan, esq., second son of Jevan ap Thomas (
> -1416), was the first member of the Herbert Clan to assume the surname of
> Raglan (d). Born at Perthyre manor around the year 1408 he was orphaned at
> the age of eight. For a short period following the death of his father,
> Robert lived with his grandfather at Perthyre but soon moved to Raglan
> castle, the family seat of his uncle, Sir William ap Thomas, knt. At Raglan
> he received, as a member of Sir William's family, an education befitting his
> station and grew to manhood. Robert remained at Raglan until sometime after
> his marriage when he moved with his family to Glamorgan. In deference to
> his English upbringing at Raglan, he dropped the Welsh name form at the time
> of his removal and assumed the surname of Raglan(d), denoting the place from
> whence he came, but at the same time distinguishing his family from those of
> Sir William's sons who had adopted the Herbert surname."
>
> I hope this is helpful and responds to your concern about "the name's the
> same."
>
> Sincerely,
> Gordon
Gordon,
In fact Tony is posing the correct first question: "what is the evidence
showing the parentage of the Virginia immigrant Evan Ragland?" and
working backwards, one generation at a time, from that.
I cracked the on-line version of vol. 1. from the link posted by Ken
Ozanne. Buried in the footnotes to one chapter deep in the book is the
circumstantial case for Evan Ragland of Virginia being the boy of that
name baptized in St. Decuman's, Somersetshire, in 1656 or whenever. The
case boils down to the fact that the author found no other Even Ragland
in the course of his search. There's an interesting discussion of
family traditions (abduction onto a ship; origins in Wells) that seem to
support the possibility that he was right. The whole thing has to
remain conjecture, though, especially without a systematic estimate of
the frequency and distribution of the Raglan(d) surname in the 17th
century. If the surname was very small, the author may be right in this
particular link, and may be right in what seem to be similarly
circunstantial or speculative links in earlier generations. The writing
style of the paragraph you quote above shows that the author appears
prone to drape a sort of biographer's imaginative certainty over what we
genealogists know is more usually sparse and inconclusive evidence.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
marianne dillow
Marianne Dillowh
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
From: Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Gordon,
Nathaniel Taylor
<nltaylor-4D7A05...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
I <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> I cracked the on-line version of vol. 1. from the link posted by Ken
> Ozanne. Buried in the footnotes to one chapter deep in the book is the
> circumstantial case for Evan Ragland of Virginia being the boy of that
> name baptized in St. Decuman's, Somersetshire, in 1656 or whenever.
A word on its organization. The first volume is divided into three
parts-- a 'British Roots' section (pp. 1-56); a section on the early
family in VA and NC (59-144); and a section on branches in the midwest
or elsewhere (145-end). The most important bits are the chapter on Evan
himself, pp. 59-71, and the chapters on the line to which he is claimed
to belong, that of the 'Ragland family of Lysworney' [and St. Decumans,
etc.] (45-52).
Gordon, what does vol 2 add that vol. 1 did not cover? Was it published
significantly later? Does it include substantive further investigation
of the English family? Does it strengthen or restate the circumstantial
case for the immigrant's identity?
Paulo Santos Perneta
18:59:05 -0800 (PST):
> Evan Ragland is the immigrant to Virginia in New Kent county. He
> descends from Sir Thomap William of Raglan Castle in Monmouth south
> Wales. They were in Glamorgan also then moved to Somerset County,
> England. Church records in england are located in St. Decuman amd
> Stogumber parishses.
>
> A dfiffernt Evan Ragland lineage:
>
> Starting here:
> I. William de Warren m. Isabel dau of Hugh Magnus, son of Henry I,
> King of France and Anne, Priness of Kiev
> II. William de Warren 1119-1148, m. Adelia dau of William III,
> Talvacs, Count of Ponthieu, d 1172
> III. Isabel de Warren m.1163 to Hameline Plantagenet, base son of
> Geoffrey IV, Plantagenet, Hameline d. 1202.
I have Hamelin Plantagenet and Isabel de Warrene as parents of William
de Warrenne, Earl of Surrey, second husband of Maud Marshall from V
below.
Is this correct? Did she married an uncle of his first husband?
D. Spencer Hines
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
> "Robert ap Jevan, alias Robert Raglan, esq., second son of Jevan ap
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> In article
> <nltaylor-4D7A05.23364730112...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
I looked at vol. 2 of the Ragland work back in October when this line
first bubbled up. See my post of October 25 for an assessment. In
summary, vol. 2 is LESS scholarly than volume 1. With respect to the
identity of the immigrant Evan Ragland it simply references volume 1
and summarizes those conclusions. It says quite specifically that
"the circumstances surrounding the arrival of Evan Ragland in America
are, at best, conjectural" and that "the only known source....on Evan
Ragland's activities....comes from family traditions which date back
to at least the eighteenth century".
All the genealogy before and after Evan Ragland MAY be at least
reasonably acceptable (or it may not be), but the identity of Evan
Ragland the immigrant as the Evan Ragland who was born in Somerset is
clearly conjectural - and probably unprovable. If Ms Dillow wants to
pursue the earlier genealogy of the Ragland/Raglan family, she's
perfectly entitled to do so - but she should recognize and admit that
the connection of the earlier lineage to her own ancestry is presently
unsupportable because of the weak link of Evan Ragland. The presumed
good faith of Charles Ragland in writing these books doesn't add
anything to the credibility of the weak link. So, stop referring to
this as "the Evan Ragland lineage" - because it isn't, at least not
that of the immigrant.
But actually I don't think that Tony Hoskins was asking about the
issue of Evan Ragland the immigrant but rather about whether (or how)
the Raglan (or Ragland) family in England assumed that surname, which
is a totally different question. In this regard, volume 1 is the
place to look, since volume 2 again just references volume 1.
Although the sources are not always well indicated, I suspect that
most of the material there could be substantiated in standard
collections of Welsh pedigrees, to the extent that those pedigrees are
considered acceptable - and if some interested party really wanted to
be diligent about verifying these lines. But Charles Ragland's work
is a bit weak to simply accept on faith. But we all have different
standards in this regard....so be it.
marianne dillow
Sir William ap Thomas who took the surname of Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, is the son of Sir Thomas ap William. They built Raglan Castle. Robert Raglan(d) . first of the surname lived at Raglan Castle.
Sir William ap Thomas (Herbert), son of Sir Thomas ap William, was the uncle of Robert Raglan, that first took the surname of Raglan(d).
There is the Herbert Arms.... Robert Raglan (d) took the Herbert Arms and later modified them and crossed the Herbert arms with the Clerke Arms, because he married Joan Clerke dau of William Clerke ( alias Wilcock Lewrch) of Knoyles Place, Llantwit parish., co., Glamorgan. , . . Robert Raglan is the son of Jevan ap Thomas and the grandson of Sir William ap Thomas. The Herbert Arms are in Burke's General Armory.
Sir Thomas ap William , grandfather of Robert Raglan(d) died in 1438. He is buried at Llansauntfraed Chapel, Co., Monmouth south Wales, on which his arms are the same as Robert Raglan(d).
Robert later modified the (Herbert Arms)... described as" a vertically divided shield of blue on the left and red on the right with three silver lions rearing to the left with the lower one larger than the two upper ones"...... Robert modified the Herbert Arms carried by his uncle, Sir William ap Thomas (Herbert), 1st Earl of Pembroke. Robert Raglan(d) crossed the Herbert Arms with the Clerke Arms wich is described in the Golden Grove Book "as a shield divided vertically; the left side consisting of a vertically divided blue and red background with three silver lions (the Herbert Arms) and the right side consisting of a silver background with three vertically placed red unicorns (The Clerke Arms).
Check the Arms instead of the sleeves. LOL ! .....See Burke's General Armory and any other Arms books that carry these arms without the sleeves. :)
Marianne Dillow
There are three sons of Sir Thomas ap William who come down to Evan Ragland because of the people they married. This is one of them.
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, D. Spencer Hines <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
From: D. Spencer Hines <pan...@excelsior.com>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
marianne dillow
But I want to call it "The Evan Ragland Lineage".. and will continue to do so.. because I want to.... tis the freedom of speech.... :)
Also.... Vol 1.... Evan Ragland's baptism is recorded in St. Decuman's Register. Somerset County, England... " Bap't ye Mar 31, 1656 Jevan (Evan ) Ragland sone of Thomas and Jane Ragland."
Only two Evan Ragland's were ever found. Mine and the other one is Evan Ragland who lived in Wiltshire. This one is excluded because he lived in the wrong century and is known to have not left any grandsons. My Evan Ragland is not found in England after his baptism.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. So be it. :)
Marianne Dillow
--- On Mon, 12/1/08, jhigg...@yahoo.com <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: jhigg...@yahoo.com <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Paulo Santos Perneta
00:03:30 -0800 (PST):
>
> But I want to call it "The Evan Ragland Lineage".. and will continue
> to do so.. because I want to.... tis the freedom of speech.... :)
>
> Also.... Vol 1.... Evan Ragland's baptism is recorded in St.
> Decuman's Register. Somerset County, England... " Bap't ye Mar 31,
> 1656 Jevan (Evan ) Ragland sone of Thomas and Jane Ragland."
>
> Only two Evan Ragland's were ever found. Mine and the other one is
> Evan Ragland who lived in Wiltshire. This one is excluded because he
> lived in the wrong century and is known to have not left any
> grandsons. My Evan Ragland is not found in England after his
> baptism.
Have someone checked the death records, to be sure that the child had
not died?
If such things as baby deaths were recorded in those times, that is...
Paulo
david11...@gmail.com
> But I want to call it "The Evan Ragland Lineage".. and will continue to do so.. because I want to.... tis the freedom of speech.... :)
>
> Also.... Vol 1.... Evan Ragland's baptism is recorded in St. Decuman's Register. Somerset County, England... " Bap't ye Mar 31, 1656 Jevan (Evan ) Ragland sone of Thomas and Jane Ragland."
>
> Only two Evan Ragland's were ever found. Mine and the other one is Evan Ragland who lived in Wiltshire. This one is excluded because he lived in the wrong century and is known to have not left any grandsons. My Evan Ragland is not found in England after his baptism.
>
> You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. So be it. :)
>
> Marianne Dillow
Bear in mind that in the Commonwealth period in England (1642-1660)
parish registers were poorly kept, many not at all, so there are large
gaps. There may have been other Evan Raglands whose baptisms were not
recorded.
Equally there are many parish registers which haven't been
transcribed, or haven't been extracted onto the IGI or BVRI, or
haven't been filmed by the LDS, or over the centuries have been
damaged or gone missing. Who's checked all of these to see if there's
an Evan Ragland baptism, marriage or burial? St Decumans registers,
whilst dating from 1600, are deficient in that many of the earlier
pages are illegible and there are big gaps in the Bishop's
Transcripts. It's possible that this Evan died or was married in one
of the years that's missing. Who knows!
The strongest statement that can be made is that Evan Ragland,
baptised in 1656 in Somersetshire, might have been the Evan Ragland
who emigrated. On the other hand he might not. Probably impossible to
prove, one way or the other.
David
Paulo Santos Perneta
[..]
> The strongest statement that can be made is that Evan Ragland,
> baptised in 1656 in Somersetshire, might have been the Evan Ragland
> who emigrated. On the other hand he might not. Probably impossible to
> prove, one way or the other.
The clue could be on some contemporaneous will or deed. I have seen
many cases where an emigrant is mentioned as "João Pereira ausente nas
Índias de Espanha", absent in the Spanish Indies. If someone is really
interested in certifying this link, an extensive research on the
Somersetshire wills and deeds would be helpful.
More important than this, in Catholic Church there's a sacrament
called "Crisma" - don't know the translation, but it's the christening
confirmation - that you receive during adolescence, and is mandatory.
If the religion in question here has the same thing, then if Evan
survived childhood he would be recorded that way still in his native
village.
Paulo
M.Sjostrom
'freedom of speech' means also such things as freedom to commit a fraud....
And, it's certainly not the freedom which is punished, but the fraud...
Freedom of speech notwithstanding (because it cannot justify false content of the speech...), the fraud is deliberate when the perp has been warned against using the false content.
If we have a perfect freedom of speech, then people are welcome to call that as
"the unattested lineage which Marianne Dillow wants fraudulently call as her Evan Ragland Lineage"... :)
Renia
During this period in England, people were Christened in the Church of
England, by law. Separate Catholic records would not exist. People were
fined as recusants for being Catholic and not attending church.
Paulo Santos Perneta
> Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
[..]
>> More important than this, in Catholic Church there's a sacrament called
>> "Crisma" - don't know the translation, but it's the christening
>> confirmation - that you receive during adolescence, and is mandatory. If
>> the religion in question here has the same thing, then if Evan survived
>> childhood he would be recorded that way still in his native village.
>
> During this period in England, people were Christened in the Church of
> England, by law. Separate Catholic records would not exist. People were
> fined as recusants for being Catholic and not attending church.
OK, but that was not the point. The idea is to search for the
Confirmation (Crisma) records in the parish books - which I now know
to be a sacrament common to either Roman Catholic and Anglican Church
- as it would provide information about the boy surviving childhood.
If those records exist in the mentioned parish, he has to be there,
unless he was taken to the New World as a child by some relative. In
any case, it would worth a look.
Paulo
Paulo Santos Perneta
Why not simply call it "the proposed Evan Ragland Lineage"?
Why are you being so picky on this, anyway? Don't you agree that there
is some probability that the lineage is actually correct? :)
Paulo
Nathaniel Taylor
<nltaylor-40087A...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> > I cracked the on-line version of vol. 1. from the link posted by Ken
> > Ozanne. Buried in the footnotes to one chapter deep in the book is the
> > circumstantial case for Evan Ragland of Virginia being the boy of that
> > name baptized in St. Decuman's, Somersetshire, in 1656 or whenever.
>
> A word on its organization. The first volume is divided into three
> parts-- a 'British Roots' section (pp. 1-56); a section on the early
> family in VA and NC (59-144); and a section on branches in the midwest
> or elsewhere (145-end). The most important bits are the chapter on Evan
> himself, pp. 59-71, and the chapters on the line to which he is claimed
> to belong, that of the 'Ragland family of Lysworney' [and St. Decumans,
> etc.] (45-52).
>
> Gordon, what does vol 2 add that vol. 1 did not cover? Was it published
> significantly later? Does it include substantive further investigation
> of the English family? Does it strengthen or restate the circumstantial
> case for the immigrant's identity?
jhigginsgen, thanks very much for your further remarks on vol. 2. I
hadn't realized that it was published a decade later and only summarizes
or restates the English research appearing in vol. 1. That means we
have the whole argument accessible in the online version of vol. 1
linked upthread.
This current thread shows extremes: those who are either naively
defending the whole thing (big book must be true), or gleefully shouting
it down without actually looking at it (show us the evidence). I think
the rest of us--Gordon, jhigginsgen, Tony, and I--are essentially in
agreement. The fundamental basis of the Ragland work is two 'name's the
same' arguments: first, that the immigrant is the boy of that name
baptized at St. Decuman's, Somerset, and not afterwards seen (and not
buried young); and second, that the entire South Wales / Westcountry
'Raglan(d)' population derives from a single ancestor, the noble scion
who adopted this toponymic surname. A 'name's the same' case is not
valueless when one is dealing with such a rare surname. The Raglan(d)
surname does seem very small, and concentrated only in South Wales and
the Westcountry in s. 17, which is of course the region around Raglan
itself. The rarity of the name could tend both to support a
single-ancestor theory and to increase the chance that the immigrant
actually is the boy from St. Decuman's. But both parts of this are
essentially arguments from silence--Ragland having found exactly one
candidate for the emigrant, and only one observable candidate as common
ancestor of all traceable families with this surname. At one point he
responds, in a footnote, to those who suggest that others of humble
stock may have taken the name of the village of Raglan as a surname, but
dismisses it saying he has found no one of the name who is not descended
from his candidate progenitor; but this appears to be based on circular
reasoning. An argument from silence in a case such as this is not
valueless but needs to be made with more systematic estimation of a
denominator, and of course more systematic citation of sources; and
without any corroboration of other kinds it will always remain
conjectural.
Another interesting part of the work is Ragland's discussion of the oral
traditions he appears to have polled in different parts of the
family--e.g. the impressment legend. However, he does not clearly lay
out the previous historiography of the family. He alludes to
19th-century research in which this legend might have figured. However,
he appears not to consider that earlier theories of immigrant origins
disseminated by amateur genealogists can become entrenched as oral
traditions in widely distributed branches of a family, appearing to
later generations as independent oral evidence.
Renia
It was the point, because no such Catholic records exist for the time
because it was against the law. Christening records for the Church of
England probably exist and, indeed, I believe a Christening record for
an Evan Ragland has been found. English records of this period, however,
are very sparse in the information they give, eg. "John, son of William
Smith batised on [date]".
As another poster reminded us, this was the period of The Commonwealth,
where many parish registers between 1642-1660 were either not kept, or
have since been lost. It is a difficult period to cover, and it stops
many English genealogists in their tracks.
marianne dillow
Marianne Dillow
--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
the_ver...@comcast.net
> But I want to call it "The Evan Ragland Lineage".. and will continue to do so.. because I want to.... tis the freedom of speech.... :)
>
> Also.... Vol 1.... Evan Ragland's baptism is recorded in St. Decuman's Register. Somerset County, England... " Bap't ye Mar 31, 1656 Jevan (Evan ) Ragland sone of Thomas and Jane Ragland."
>
> Only two Evan Ragland's were ever found. Mine and the other one is Evan Ragland who lived in Wiltshire. This one is excluded because he lived in the wrong century and is known to have not left any grandsons. My Evan Ragland is not found in England after his baptism.
>
> You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. So be it. :)
>
> Marianne Dillow
>
I really hate to say this but...
Genealogy is built on evidence. It is built neither on opinion nor
lack of evidence.
That being said, while it is fine to put forth the theory that the
English Evan and the Virginia Evan are one and the same, it should be
made absolutely clear in any reports that it *IS* a theory and is
*NOT* fact.
One rule for all genealogists to remember is.. Place no emotional
connection to your research, it distorts perspective and clouds
judgement.
the_ver...@comcast.net
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
ok, so all we have to find is a male line descendant of Evan and a
male line of Evan's father or of Evan's father's brothers- right?
That should seal the deal one way or the other.
Renia
> There is always yDNA testing at Family Tree DNA. Male Ragland's could test. :)
That would only prove whether they were related in the male line, but
not what that male line was.
marianne dillow
I tested my mtDNA at Family Tree DNA. ...... maybe my male Ragland cousins can be talked into testing their yDNA ? That is an interesting aspect since DNA does not lie. A Ragland Project of male DNA might be helpful. :)
Marranne Dillow
--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
From: Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
WJho...@aol.com
re...@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
> david11...@gmail.com wrote in Mon, 1 Dec 2008 01:48:29 -0800 (PST):
>
> [..]
>> The strongest statement that can be made is that Evan Ragland,
>> baptised in 1656 in Somersetshire, might have been the Evan Ragland
>> who emigrated. On the other hand he might not. Probably impossible to
>> prove, one way or the other.
>
> The clue could be on some contemporaneous will or deed. I have seen many
> cases where an emigrant is mentioned as "João Pereira ausente nas Índias
> de Espanha", absent in the Spanish Indies. If someone is really
> interested in certifying this link, an extensive research on the
> Somersetshire wills and deeds would be helpful.
> More important than this, in Catholic Church there's a sacrament called
> "Crisma" - don't know the translation, but it's the christening
> confirmation - that you receive during adolescence, and is mandatory. If
> the religion in question here has the same thing, then if Evan survived
> childhood he would be recorded that way still in his native village.
During this period in England, people were Christened in the Church of
England, by law. Separate Catholic records would not exist. People were
fined as recusants for being Catholic and not attending church.>>
Really? People under Mary I were fined as recusants for being Catholic?
See _http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Monarch_of_England_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Monarch_of_England)
_Mary I, Queen of England_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php?title=Mary_I,_Queen_of_England&action=edit) , reigned Jul 19, 1553 - Nov
17, 1558, succeeded at her death by her sister _Elizabeth I, Queen of
England_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Elizabeth_I,_Queen_of_England) Nov 17, 1558 - Mar 24, 1603, succeeded at her death by her first
cousin, twice removed _James I, King of England_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/James_I,_King_of_England) , Mar 24, 1603 - Mar 27, 1625,
succeeded at his death by his son
Will Johnson
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
WJho...@aol.com
I'm a century off!
Mea culpa mea culpa
marianne dillow
Marianne Dillow
--- On Mon, 12/1/08, the_ver...@comcast.net <the_ver...@comcast.net> wrote:
From: the_ver...@comcast.net <the_ver...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
marianne dillow
Marianne Dillow
--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Diana Gale Matthiesen
line you're trying to prove. If the line you're trying to prove has any females
in it, you will not be able to use Y-DNA testing to prove it, or at least not
all of it.
You also need at least one individual with a solid paper connection to the
progenitor in question to be the standard. Actually, you need two, because you
cannot know whether an individual has an NPE, a "non-paternal event" (viz., a
hidden adoption or illicit paternity) until he's had a match with another
descendant on a different line.
There is a RAGLAND project based at FTDNA:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/ragland/
The fact that the project's web site is located on the worldfamilies.net web
site is a bad sign, because that usually means the project has been orphaned
(i.e., the original admin, who opened the project, has resigned). The name
listed there as the admin is the person who fills in as substitue admin for such
projects until a new admin can be found, so you might be able to take the
project on. If this would be your first Y-DNA project, I would recommend being
co-admin with this individual, who's very experienced. There is an outside
chance that RAGLAND is actually a surname of personal interest to him, and he
won't want a co-admin, but probably not.
What every project needs is an admin who is an active researcher of the surname
and someone who will be active bringing in members. As an orphaned project, I
suspect the RAGLAND project currently has neither. The low number of members
(4) and lack of posted lineages (1) also suggest that is the case.
Diana
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of marianne dillow
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:55 AM
> To: Nathaniel Taylor
> Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Evan Ragland Lineage
>
D. Spencer Hines
> Born at Perthyre manor around the year
> 1408 he was orphaned at the age of eight. For a short period following
> the death of his father, Robert lived with his grandfather at Perthyre
> but soon moved to Raglan castle, the family seat of his uncle, Sir
> William ap Thomas, knt. At Raglan he received, as a member of
> Sir William's family, an education befitting his station and grew
> to manhood. Robert remained at Raglan until sometime after
> his marriage when he moved with his family to Glamorgan.
Did this Sir William ap Thomas, knt even exist?
>> In deference to his English upbringing at Raglan, he dropped the
>> Welsh name form at the time of his removal and assumed the
>> surname of Raglan(d), denoting the place from whence he
>> came, but at the same time distinguishing his family from
>> those of Sir William's sons who had adopted the Herbert surname."
Why did they adopt the surname Herbert?
Diana Gale Matthiesen
surname. You want to compare your RAGLAND with other RAGLANDs, not everyone in
Britain.
Diana
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of marianne dillow
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 4:33 PM
> To: Renia
> Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
>
> But there are Geographical Projects also besides the surname projects.
>
> Marianne Dillow
>
> --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
>
> From: Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr>
> Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 10:53 AM
>
Diana Gale Matthiesen
don't have a project admin working relentlessly to enlarge the project by
getting other RAGLANDs to join and be tested. The admin of a geographic project
is not going to work to bring other RAGLANDs (or any other particular surname)
into the project, at all. They just sit back and wait for people tested in
surname projects to *also* join a regional project.
Renia
Mary was a century earlier.
Renia
Yey!
M.Sjostrom
once upon a time, I perused the texts of the book of Charles Ragland:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/7b4ff912881897d4
but, I would not want to repeat that acquaintance.
Too much (such as, royal descents) is tried to be made out of conjectures on basis of 'names resemble'
I bet that if some Morgan's wife had not been a Herbert, but it were admitted that the 'James Morgan' was a peasant or otherwise relatively lowly as he probably was,
there'd not be so much noise about these 'Raglans'
Paulo Santos Perneta
> Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
>> Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:43:27 +0200:
>>
>>> Paulo Santos Perneta wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>>>> More important than this, in Catholic Church there's a sacrament called
>>>> "Crisma" - don't know the translation, but it's the christening
>>>> confirmation - that you receive during adolescence, and is mandatory. If
>>>> the religion in question here has the same thing, then if Evan survived
>>>> childhood he would be recorded that way still in his native village.
>>>
>>> During this period in England, people were Christened in the Church of
>>> England, by law. Separate Catholic records would not exist. People were
>>> fined as recusants for being Catholic and not attending church.
>>
>> OK, but that was not the point. The idea is to search for the
>> Confirmation (Crisma) records in the parish books - which I now know to
>> be a sacrament common to either Roman Catholic and Anglican Church - as
>> it would provide information about the boy surviving childhood. If those
>> records exist in the mentioned parish, he has to be there, unless he was
>> taken to the New World as a child by some relative. In any case, it
>> would worth a look.
>
> It was the point, because no such Catholic records exist for the time
I'm not speaking of Catholic records, as I believe should be clear
from the paragraph above, but it seems it was not. The Catholic Church
was brought in as an analogy.
> because it was against the law. Christening records for the Church of
> England probably exist and, indeed, I believe a Christening record for
> an Evan Ragland has been found. English records of this period, however,
> are very sparse in the information they give, eg. "John, son of William
> Smith batised on [date]".
I'm not speaking about Christening records either, but the
Confirmation ones, which are performed during adolescence, and are
thus helpful to understand if the christened children reached adulthood.
I suppose the English Church has been recording them in a similar way
to the Catholic church.
Paulo
Paulo Santos Perneta
Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:32:07 -0800 (PST):
[..]
> ok, so all we have to find is a male line descendant of Evan and a
> male line of Evan's father or of Evan's father's brothers- right?
>
> That should seal the deal one way or the other.
If there has been no cheating, that is. ;)
Renia
Not to my knowledge, no. While Confirmation is practised by Anglicans,
it has not been widespread.
Diana Gale Matthiesen
ancestor "in genealogical time" (we're all related if you go back far enough).
IOW, you can know whether or not you are genetically related to the right
family, which I think most genealogists would agree is an important thing to
establish.
But even if you've proven they're the same family, you cannot prove exactly
which person that common ancestor was because the near male relatives of that
ancestor would have the same Y-chromosome. In other words, if a woman had an
affair with her brother-in-law, it's unlikely there would be any way to tell
based on the Y-DNA of her sons, although there are such cases where you could
tell, and that is in a generation where a new mutation arose.
I have had two cousins Y-DNA tested who are brothers, and they differ by one
mutation. We know which one has the mutation because their cousins match his
brother, not him. Henceforth, it will be possible to tell the descendants of
these two brothers apart by that mutation.
The probablilty of getting a mutation (when testing 67 markers) averages one per
seven generations (range 0-3). It's a matter of chance whether a new mutation
arises at a point that is useful. In the case of the two brothers mentioned
above, the appearance of this mutation is not helpful; I would have prefered one
back 7 or 8 generations. As it is, the un-mutated brother matches this family's
progenitor perfectly (67/67), so we have no DNA clue which of the progenitor's
sons is their ancestor.
Based on empirical evidence, the probability of an NPE, "non-paternal event" (a
hidden adoption or illicit paternity), runs about 1% per generation, so in the
case of long lineages, the probabilty that there has been an NPE is definitely
non-trivial.
I would submit that anyone wanting to prepare a solid pedigree needs to test
themselves (a surrogate if you're female) and as many other male lines as
possible (by testing cousins). Someday, if enough men with solid paper
pedigrees are Y-DNA tested, it will be possible to support -- or debunk -- at
least a few of these long paper lineages.
I wonder... How many men living today have a documented paper genealogy of
patrilineal descent from someone in the medieval period? Are there any?
Diana
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Paulo
> Santos Perneta
> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 7:37 AM
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
>
> "the_ver...@comcast.net" <the_ver...@comcast.net> wrote in
> Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:32:07 -0800 (PST):
>
> [..]
> > ok, so all we have to find is a male line descendant of Evan and a
> > male line of Evan's father or of Evan's father's brothers- right?
> >
> > That should seal the deal one way or the other.
>
M.Sjostrom
"...How many men living today have a documented paper genealogy of
patrilineal descent from someone in the medieval period?..."
* lots, I mean, *lots* of nobility have that.
Nobility itself is a thing which customarily has mostly been inherited by agnatic descent. A *lot* of noble and armigerous families trace their armigerous patrilineage from Middle Ages - usually from last medieval centuries, but there are a remarkable number of such tracing from high-medieval era even.
Of course, a vast number of families have been raised from commoners to nobility in 1800s, 1700s, 1600s - but still there are *lots* of those whose nobility is of medieval vintage.
Diana Gale Matthiesen
are willing to get tested and risk discovering an NPE in their line... :-o
M.Sjostrom
Y DNA testing indeed is intriguing, when applied to old noble families.
I am aware of, for example, a completed y DNA testing of various Hamiltons, including several branches of the noble families Hamilton. The most prominent of these is of course that Scots late-medieval lineage coming from FitzGilbert, who acquired Cadzow. Later they acquired several more noble titles for various branches.
Many branches, diverged already several centuries ago (some even since medieval era) were found well to be their paper-supported agnates, and some branch earlier believed so, was disproved...
This family was proven to be Germanic of origin. Viking or Saxon or something like that...
Then, it transpired that the swedish barons and counts Hamilton, earlier believed to be agnates via a very obscure medieval branch, actually are not, but they hold a different (Celtic) y dna.
It has not been seemingly any proböem for their those descendants to participate.
But perhaps to some it would be. However, succession to noble titles are not expected to be decided on basis of conclusions about medieval lineages...
And, here we have seen occasional report sometimes of the Russian princely project, ewhich has identified the Ryurik lineage y Dna, and is hopefully nearing an identification of Gediminas y Dna
There are anyway several other factors which may be a justification of holding a noble title (which mostly today are just decorations, not worth a real battle) despite of suspected NPE, or other y dna failure, that not many people's noble rank or social status would be affected by inconsistency in lineage y dna.
Therefore, it should not be impossible to encourage nobles to participate in y Dna testings.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/2008 10:59:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mdil...@verizon.net writes:
Sir William ap Thomas who took the surname of Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke,
is the son of Sir Thomas ap William. They built Raglan Castle. Robert
Raglan(d) . first of the surname lived at Raglan Castle.>>
------------------------
I'm not as certain of this as you are.
I think it's possible that William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke, was the
son of
William ap Thomas Herbert, Knight Banneret and his wife Gwladus verch Daffyd
Gam
Will Johnson
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)
Douglas Richardson
> I wonder... How many men living today have a documented paper genealogy of
> patrilineal descent from someone in the medieval period? Are there any?
>
> Diana
Dear Diana ~
I can trace my ancestry back to the colonial immigrant, [Mr.] Amos
Richardson (c. 1618-1683), of Boston, Massachusetts and Stonington,
Connecticut. My brother's DNA and mine match five other male
Richardsons. Three of the five descend from my immigrant ancestor.
One descends from a man named Richardson living in Virginia in the
1790's. The fifth person descends from an immigrant from Yorkshire to
Canada about 1850.
This isn't the medieval period, but it does show that DNA can be used
to link together people of known kinship and unknown kinship, and
possibly point to the English origin of an American family.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Tony Hoskins
kinship and unknown kinship, and possibly point to the English origin of
an American family."
This is good to hear - and interesting. At long last - scientific
ignoramus that I am - I've embarked on the DNA road, with Diana's kind
mentoring. Have sent away for my testing materials for the 67 marker
test. Eager to learn what lurks in my genes!
Tony Hoskins
Kevin Bradford
I thought I'd see if anyone on this list might share, along with myself, a documented matrilineal descent from Jane Bond, daughter of Robert Bond, who married Richard Coles, Gent. of Preston Capes, Northamptonshire, 1536. Living in 1577, Jane was dead by 1584.
Jane's matrilineal great-granddaughter (and in my line) was the American colonial immigrant, Alice Freeman Thompson Parke (d. 1665, CT), the latter who is described by Gary Boyd Roberts as a type of genealogical "ur-mother" due to her dozens of noteworthy descendants (including the late Princess Diana):
http://www.newenglandancestors.org/research/services/articles_gbr68.asp
While it may be rare to trace agnatic lines to the medieval era, it seems even more surprising to be able to do so for a female lineage.
Best regards,
Kevin Bradford
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008
WJho...@aol.com
you mentioned.
That is to say as the wife of Richard Coles.
See
_http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00032199&tree=LEO&display=s
tandard_
(http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00032199&tree=LEO&display=standard)
Can you specify your source?
Thanks
Diana Gale Matthiesen
Yes, indeed, thank you for sharing your example.
There are several such examples in my five DNA surname projects. We have cases
where the paper genealogy is supported, where an unexpected line is connected,
and where bogus connections have been uncovered. The genealogy of these
families is making much more "sense" than it used to.
Speaking personally, using DNA I've only managed to "cross the pond" on one
line, and that line back only to 1616, but I'm patient, and more people are
being tested every day... :-)
Diana
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:09 AM
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
>
Kay Allen
We share many lines, including this one. I still hold that the Capetian line IS tenable.
Due to Social Security regulations which limit income to those who have been forced into retirement before
the deceased spouse and herself have reached their official retirement dates (Mine is May, 2009), I have not had the wherewithal to pursue obtaining copies of the original germane supporting evidences, which are much more than stained glass windows. These supporting evidences do support the statements of these glass windows in Thames Church, however.
Does anyone know the date of the installation of these windows?
Thanks muchly,
K
________________________________
From: Kevin Bradford <plantag...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:31:39 AM
Subject: Medieval matrilineals & Jane Bond Coles
http://www.newenglandancestors.org/research/services/articles_gbr68.asp
Best regards,
Kevin Bradford
-------------------------------
Paulo Santos Perneta
08:32:07 -0500:
[..]
> I wonder... How many men living today have a documented paper genealogy of
> patrilineal descent from someone in the medieval period? Are there any?
Hordes of them (literally), from the Portuguese Royal family, at least.
They descend uninterruptedly by male from the Duchy of Burgundy, and
then Robert II of France, Hugh Capet, etc., all the way at least until
Robert the Strong, died 2 Jul 866. As far as I know, a few dozens of
them live now in Brazil.
Paulo
Diana Gale Matthiesen
eventually at least.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 2:04 PM
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
>
Paulo Santos Perneta
15:23:35 -0500:
> Let's home at least some of them can be persuaded to get Y-DNA tested,
> eventually at least.
They are listed in http://www.geneall.net/P/ and I'm sure that for
many of them are easy to find the contacts online, in case you want to
go for it.
Just look for any of the Portuguese Kings in the 19th century and
follow down the male lines.
There's at a branch living in New York city currently, D. Michel
William de Braganza and wife Barbara Haliburton Fales. Another branch
lives in Stamford, Connecticut. And I'm sure there are quite a few
more in the USA.
They are close cousins of our candidate to the crown, D. Duarte Pio.
And all of them have male lines that go to Robert the Strong in the
9th century, or even beyond, if you want to consider Robert's alleged
ancestry as credible.
Paulo
marianne dillow
Thank You,
Marianne Dillow
--- On Sat, 12/13/08, Paulo Santos Perneta <dar...@spamcop.net> wrote:
chip...@gmail.com
marlow...@frontier.com
Evan Ragland is my 8th great grandfather also through his son , Stephen Ragland. . I always think DNA testing is great but at Family Tree DNA based in Houston only about ten males have tested so far..
>From another poster by googling:
James Madison Ragland's line of ancestors were in Granville area for a number of generations.
Following his line back: James Madison Ragland was the son of Evan Ragland & Aggie Williams.
Evan was the son of William Ragland & Emily Sneed.
William was the son of Stephen Ragland.
Stephen was the first of this line to live in the Granville area. Stephen was the son of Evan Ragland and Susanna Pettus. Evan came to the colonies from England and as far as is known is the common ancestor of all Raglands in America.
Marianne Dillow
Marianne Dillow
----- Original Message -----
From: "chip cook" <chip...@gmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 9:59:43 PM
Subject: Re: Evan Ragland purported Lineage
Renia
> I am a Ragland. My greatX2 grandpa was James Madison Ragland/ I believe Evan was my 8X grandpa. Where do we sign up for the DNA test?
scbo...@gmail.com
I am a natural horsewoman my mother always said it was because it was in our genetic makeup all the way.back to medieval days I would really like to know where we came from.
scbo...@gmail.com
Ireta Remsburg (maiden name was Brown)
My mother was Cleo Irene Ragland