Re: Ragland
Ken Ozanne
I just downloaded volume I from:
http://home.satx.rr.com/ragland/
I hope this moves us forward a little.
Best,
Ken (Just returned from extensive travels)
On 25/10/08 10:25, "gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com"
<gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
>
> From: jhigg...@yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:21:27 -0700 (PDT)
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Comprehensive descents from E3 - Evan Ragland, of VA?
>
> On Oct 24, 2:32 pm, marianne dillow <mdillo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> The two volumes on the Raglands are comprehensive and can be foind in public
>> libraries as well as family members who have copies plus you can google this
>> and look at the volumes yourself.
>>
>> Charles J. Ragland, Jr's The Raglands - The History of a British-American
>> Family, Volume 1 and II. ... Charles Ragland, Jr. is a distant cousin to
>> mine. I descend from Evan Ragland that located to New Kent Co., Va the son of
>> Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan.
>> Their included in the volumes.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Marianne Dillow
>>
>> --- On Fri, 10/24/08, Tony Hoskins <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> From: Tony Hoskins <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
>> Subject: RE: Comprehensive descents from E3 - Evan Ragland, of VA?
>> To: plantagenet...@hotmail.com, mdillo...@verizon.net
>> Cc: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
>> Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 4:13 PM
>>
>> Dear Mrs. Dillow:
>>
>> I for one have never heard or read of such a claimed descent for Evan
>> Ragland. I wonder if you could kindly cite us to sources?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Tony Hoskins
>>
>> Anthony Hoskins
>> History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
>> Sonoma County Archivist
>> Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
>> 3rd and E Streets
>> Santa Rosa, California 95404
>>
>> 707/545-0831, ext. 562
>
> If these Ragland volumes are actually on-line, can you be more
> specific as to where they are? Googling for them leads to the website
> below offering a draft copy for download (as of Nov. 2006), but the
> website it references has apparently gone dead.
>
> http://www.jenforum.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?ragland::964.html
>
>> From the citation in library catalogs, this looks like a privately
> produced family history. Sometimes these can be useful and reliable,
> but quite frequently they tend to be "vanity" publications, generally
> without adequate documentation of their genealogical conclusions. I'm
> not saying that this one is necessarily in the latter category, but
> the fact that the supposed Ragland royal descent is unknown to readers
> in this group (and hasn't been published elsewhere apparently) is
> certainly a red flag. Caveat lector....
>
> BTW, generation 5 in your descent shows "George Neville and Margaret
> Fienn". Based on the neighboring generations, this is George Nevill,
> 4th Lord Abergavenny, whose wife was Margaret, dau. of Sir Hugh Fenne
> [not Fienne, and thus not connected to the Fiennes family]. See CP
> 1:30-1.
>
WJho...@aol.com
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Bogus_Gateways_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Bogus_Gateways)
and a link to this page
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland)
where I note the royal gateway and why it doesn't work.
Will Johnson
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
no registration required and great graphics – check it out!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> John,
> I just downloaded volume I from:http://home.satx.rr.com/ragland/
>
> I hope this moves us forward a little.
>
> Best,
> Ken (Just returned from extensive travels)
>
>
> <gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
Thanks for pointing this out. It's too bad that volume 2 is not also
available, because volume 1 does not appear to support the line that
was posted, which was:
i. Edward III and Queen Philippa
ii. John of Gaunt and Catherine Swynford DeRoet
iii. Joan Beaufort and Ralph Neville
iv. Edward Neville and Elizabeth Beauchamp
v. George Neville and Margaret Fienne
vi. Elizabeth Neville and Thomas Berkeley
vii. Elizabeth Berkekey and George Herbert
vii. Cecilia Herbert and Thomas Morgan
viii. James Morgan and Mary Jenkyn
viii. Evan ap James Morgan and Maud unknown
ix. Jane Morgan and Thomas Ragland
x. Evan Ragland and Susanna Pettus
The only reference to anyone in this line in vol. 1 is generation
viii, Evan ap James Morgan, father of Jane who mar. Thomas Ragland.
The weak link continues to be the generation before, James Morgan and
Mary Jenkyn. Perhaps this couple is mentioned in volume 2?
My local genealogy library appears to have a copy of both of both
volumes of the Ragland work. I should be able to check it out on
Monday or Tuesday.
marianne dillow
Thanks, I would appreciate it if you could check it out. The Ragland book is 200 miles away from me and I can't go there. When I was at the Memphis Library the book was there but since it was so large and xeroxing was 20 cents a sheet I could only copy the early history and my direct line to Evan Ragland. They do not interloan.
As you look at the Ragland book , the author, Charles J. Ragland, says Evan Ragland through his parents Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan. descends back to Sir Thomas ap William of Raglan Castle through surnames of Carne, Howell, Kemeys, Matthew, Gamage,etc. There are two other sons.. Jevan ap Thomas and Howell ap Thomas plus Sir Thomas ap William who took the surname of Herbert.that Charles says comes back to Evan Ragland's parents Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan.
He gives charts in the book also of some of these surnames. He has given :
"Bap't ye Mar 31, 1656, Jevan (Evan) Ragland sone of Thomas and Jane Ragland.: Records in St. Decuman's in Somerset County, England. Some records in Stogumber Church also.
Charles Ragland says" The lives of Evan's three brothers can be traced in St. Decuman's and the county records of Somerset."
He gives starting with Sir William ap Thomas and Maud Morley dau of John Morley:
i. Jevan ap Thomas and Margaret Grant
ii. Robert ap Jevan (took the surname of Ragland) and Joan Clerke
iii. Lewis Raglan and Jane Evan
iv. Robert Ragland and Alice Matthew
v. Thomas Ragland and Mary Carne
vi. John Lewis Ragland and Alice Kingsonn
vii. Thomas Ragland and Marie Ingram
viii. Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan
x. Evan Ragland and Susanna Pettus.. first one to New Kent Co., Va.
also...
Sir Thomas ap William and Maude Morley dau of John Morley:
i. Howell ap Thomas wife unknown
ii. Isabella Verch Howell and John Carne
iii.Howell Carne and Cecile Kemeys
iv. Mary Carne and Thomas Ragland.. then goes to the lines listed above.
Sir Thomas ap William has a third son, Sir Thomas ap William that took the surname of Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke.... apparently there might be a mistake on his research on the Morgan line but Jane Morgan that married Thomas Ragland goes back to a Morgan line somewhere,
He has given sources and info where records were found. You will just have to look it over and see what you think and please let me know your observations after you look over the book please. I only want to pass on to my family my correct lineage.
Now, if anyone has any info on my Anne Sutton that married Richard Eltonhead.. to her father Edward Sutton that married Anne Stanley I would appreciate any info on Suttons from his Sutton family. I don't have any info on them but I always thought the Suttons goes back to the Dudleys. I also have seen where the Eltonheads probably came from the Norrey's family and took up the surname of Eltonhead.
Apparently Charles J. Ragland was wrong on the Morgan line with on Thomas Morgan and Cecilia Herbert I can accept that. I only want my TRUE lineage not faulty records.
I can give you this right now from his book. The records were initially found in St. Decuman's and Chapel of Stogumber in Somerset County, England.
"Bapt't ye Mar 31, 1656, Jevan (Evan) Ragland sone of Thomas and Jane Ragland.".. would be Jane Morgan born 1628 in Barry, south Wales. died in St. Decumans. He has her as the daughter of Evan ap James Morgan and Maud unknown... goes to James Morgan and Mary Jenkyn.. I always thought these two generations were rather obscure and have triied to find more info on them but never succeeeded.
Douglas gave me the following on my Eltonhead and Sutton line:
HENRY II, King of England, by a mistress, IDA DE TONY.
WILLIAM LONGESPÉE, Knt., Earl of Salisbury, married ELA OF SALISBURY.
STEPHEN LONGESPÉE, Knt., of King’s Sutton, Northamptonshire, married EMELINE DE RIDELISFORD.
ELA LONGESPÉE, married ROGER LA ZOUCHE, Knt., of Ashby de la Zouch, Leicestershire.
ALAN LA ZOUCHE, Knt., Lord Zouche, married ELEANOR DE SEGRAVE.
MAUD LA ZOUCHE, married ROBERT DE HOLAND, Knt., 1st Lord Holand.
MAUD DE HOLAND, married THOMAS DE SWINNERTON, Knt., 3rd Lord Swinnerton.
ROBERT DE SWINNERTON, Knt., 4th Lord Swinnerton, married ELIZABETH DE BEKE.
MAUD SWINNERTON, married JOHN SAVAGE, Knt., of Clifton, Cheshire.
MARY SAVAGE, married (as his 1st wife) WILLIAM STANLEY, Esq., of Hooton (in Wirral), Cheshire.
WILLIAM STANLEY, Esq., of Hooton (in Wirral), Cheshire, Stanley, married ALICE HOGHTON (or HOUGHTON).
WILLIAM STANLEY, Knt., of Hooton (in Wirral), Cheshire, married AGNES GROSVENOR.
WILLIAM STANLEY, Knt., Hooton (in Wirral), Cheshire, married ANNE HARINGTON.
PETER STANLEY, Esq., of Moor Hall (in Aughton), Lancashire, married CECILY TARLETON.
ANNE STANLEY, married EDWARD SUTTON, Gent., of Knowsley (in Huyton), Lancashire and Hall House (in Rushton Spencer), Staffordshire.
ANNE SUTTON, married RICHARD ELTONHEAD, Gent., of Eltonhead (in Prescot), Lancashire.
MARTHA ELTONHEAD, married EDWIN CONWAY, Gent., of Northampton and Lancaster Counties, Virginia.
Since the publication of my two books, I've since found evidence which conclusively proves that Maud de Holand (Gen. 7 above) married Thomas de Swinnerton, Knt. I descend from Elizabeth de Holand, sister of Maud de Holand, so we are distantly related to one another through the Holand family.
I will have to check out the other lines to se where they go to.
Marianne Dillow
--- On Sat, 10/25/08, jhigg...@yahoo.com <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Gordon and Jane Kirkemo
descent with great interest and some amusement. It seems clear that no one
other than Marianne has reviewed the books, and it appears that Marianne may
have misinterpreted or misunderstood part of the book.
I have copies of both books. My wife is a Ragland, so I've spent a little
time trying to piece her family together. In doing so, I spoke and
corresponded with Charles Ragland regarding his books. Unfortunately our
discussions were limited to Ragland families in America, as my interest in
earlier generations was not so strong then (about 15 years ago).
The books are not written in a scholarly format, but the information appears
to be conscientiously researched. Unfortunately, sources are not cited at
locations where they would be most helpful, and all sources may not be cited
at all. There are many footnotes and insightful references to places and
names that suggest he made a good effort to be accurate in his reporting.
Mr. Ragland lists a long series of portfolios at the end of his book that
appear to contain copies of correspondence and other materials not directly
cited. I would love to have access to these files but I do not know where
they may be found.
A couple of points need to be clarified.
First, Charles Ragland, in his two volume history of the Raglands, makes no
claim to a descent from Edward III for Evan Ragland the Immigrant. He does
lay out a descent from Charlemagne and William I.
Second, he does provide a chart (in fact, two charts) for the ancestry of
Sir Thomas Morgan. I note that Will Johnson provided a citation to a
document that proves there is no such connection to Edward III. That
document--"Notices of Pencoyd Castle and Langstone"--also provides a brief
ancestry for Sir Thomas beginning on page 7 and running through page 13 with
his descent. The link was provided in an earlier posting. Except for a few
dates, it matches the line provided by Mr. Ragland up to the critical point
of Sir Thomas.
Here is the line provided by Mr. Ragland on his chart on page 95 of Vol. 2.
I will also point out that Mr. Ragland takes the ancestry back 9 generations
earlier than I will record here.
I will begin with the following who is the earliest listed in the Pencoyd
paper with a continuous connection. From page 95:
Philip ap Llewelyn ap Ivor, Esq.,
Purchased Langstone manor, Gwen in
1382 and d. 1427, m. Maud, dau. & h.
to Sir John Norris, Knt., of Penllyn
Castle, Glamorgan.
|
|
Jenkin ap Philip ap Morgan, Lord of
Langstone manor, Gwent, d. 1441, m.
Cecily, dau. of Sir John Welsh, Knt.,
Lord of Llanwern, Gwent.
|
|
Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip, Lord of
Langstone manor, Gwent, d. 1472, m.
1st Elizabeth, dau. of Sir Roger Vaughan,
Knt., "The Younger", Lord of Bredwardine
manor, Herefordshire.
|
|
Sir Thomas Morgan, Knt., Lord of Langstone
Manor, Gwent, & Pencoyd manor, Glam., knighted
in 1495, m. Jane, dau. of John Gwilim Herbert
of Itton, Gwent (base son of Sir William ap
Thomas, Knt., Lord of Raglan Castle, d. 1446
and Carry Ddu heiress of Troy manor, Gwent.
He was the progenitor of the Herbert family,
earls of Pembroke).
|
|
Sir William Morgan, Knt., Lord of Pencoyd
manor, Glam., stewart of Wentlloog in 1522,
d. 1542, m. Florence, dau. of Sir Giles
Bridges, Knt., of Cuberley.
|
|
Sir Thomas Morgan, Knt., Lord of Pencoyd
manor, Glam., knighted by Henry VIII at
the siege of Bonlogne, stewart of Wentlloog
in 1545, sheriff of Glamorgan in 1559, d. 1566.
|
I will break the line here to insert an important observation. You will
note that Mr. Ragland does not identify a wife for Sir Thomas. He makes no
connection with Cecilia Herbert, the known wife of Sir Thomas. Mr.
Ragland's line continues thusly:
|
James ap Thomas Morgan, base son, merchant
of Cardiff, d. 1624, m. Mary Jenkin.
|
I will break here again to draw your attention to the fact that James is
identified as a "base son" of Sir Thomas. The Pencoyd paper identified
above does not name James as a son. Pencoyd and Langstone do not pass down
to him. I suggest the reason for James not being identified is that he was
a natural born son and not in line to inherit. I would also suggest that
the Pencoyd paper may not have included any base born children of Sir
Thomas. Mr. Ragland does not name a wife for Sir Thomas because the mother
of James is not known.
I do not know where Marianne found evidence that Cecily Herbert was the
mother of James, but I would certainly be interested to learn more about it.
I am not aware of any other claims being made as to a descent from Edward
III, so I'm not certain this is worthy of mention on the list of disproved
descents that is being compiled. The descent provided by Mr. Ragland
continues as:
|
Evan ap James Morgan of Barry, S. Wales, Barrister-at-law,
m. Maud. [apparent namesake for our immigrant]
|
|
Jane Morgan, m. 1654, Thomas Ragland (1628-1684) of St. Decuman's par.,
Somerset. [These are the parents of the immigrant]
It appears that some of you may choose to discount these books as further
examples of authors trying to tie their families to persons of renown. I
think the book has merit, but is certainly not without errors. I would love
to have some of you take an interest in it and provide some critical
feedback. I am not qualified to do this. These books have been the
principal resource for Ragland researchers, and the information provided
about the family in America represents an incredible amount of work.
The books can be easily obtained through the interlibrary loan program, and
I suspect a copy can be found at the LDS Library in SLC. I'll be happy to
research specific questions if anyone has an interest and if I have time (I
have two major family crises to deal with).
Sincerely,
Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: WJho...@aol.com [mailto:WJho...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:06 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ragland
I've added Evan Ragland to my list at
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Bogus_Gateways_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Bogus_Gateways)
and a link to this page
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland)
where I note the royal gateway and why it doesn't work.
Will Johnson
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites,
no registration required and great graphics - check it out!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
WJho...@aol.com
a base-born son.
Does Mr Ragland give his reasons for making James ap Thomas Morgan a son to
this particular Sir Thomas Morgan of Pencoyd?
Thanks
Will Johnson
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
marianne dillow
Marianne Dillow
--- On Fri, 10/24/08, Ken Ozanne <keno...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
From: Ken Ozanne <keno...@bordernet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Ragland
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 8:56 PM
John,
I just downloaded volume I from:
http://home.satx.rr.com/ragland/
I hope this moves us forward a little.
Best,
Ken (Just returned from extensive travels)
On 25/10/08 10:25, "gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com"
<gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
marianne dillow
I'm so glad you posted this. My papers I copied out of the Ragland book in Memphis is scattered in my basement with stacks of other lines as I haven't worked on my line in a long time.. I don't know where I got Cicely Morgan either because it has been so long ago. I'm glad your wife is a Ragland. I must have made a mistake on that but I am a honest person and if I made an error I can own up to it. You are correct on Charlemagne and William I. Edward III must be an honest error.
I agree with you that Charles J. Ragland, Jr. tried his best to give a correct lineage of the Ragland's that he could find. It is much better than a lot of family histories I have seen. He wrote the book in 1978 and I started genealogy in 1982. I accidentally came across Vol. 1 at the Memphis Public Library and xeroxed my lines. I don't own Vol 1 or 2.
The charts you provide I have but is somewhere in my basement. I have been trying to find them. Charles J. Ragland gives other charts too besides this one on the Morgans. It is really an interesting read and I too hope others will take it in consideration as the book was written in good faith.
Marianne Dillow
--- On Sat, 10/25/08, Gordon and Jane Kirkemo <kir...@comcast.net> wrote:
Sincerely,
Gordon
Will Johnson
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites,
no registration required and great graphics - check it out!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
M.Sjostrom
dear Will,
where in the books of Charles Ragland did YOU find a claim that James Morgan were a scion of the Abergavenny aristocratic family ??
I only found a mention that Evan Ragland's mother was descended from a James Morgan. But, if no further (such as, parentage for that James Morgan) is claimed in the books, then this surely is no bogus....
It looks rather to me that the bogus claim of royal ancestry is coming from somewhere else than from book of Charles Ragland. Probably the wishful thinking is done by someone else...
I suggest you should check carefully where the actual bogus identification or bogus claim is published.
M.Sjostrom
I do not think a royal lineage was claimed at Charles Ragland's books; rather, it possibly comes from someone else's wishful thinking, putting Cecily Herbert unwarrantedly as mother of James Morgan, which seemingly is a filiation NOT claimed by Charles Ragland.
Such things happen easily to wishful thinkers. I have seen in the internet a flora of claimed descents where another female spouse of a proven forefather is put to the role of ancestress. For example, if we believe in such, the direct descent from St.Bridget of Sweden would not be extinct (as it however is fairly well known, and even contemporary attested, to be), because one of her sons-in-law (knight Bengt Ulfson av Langnes) happened to have sons from his earlier marriage than the marriage with St.Bridget's daughter...
---
The contents as of today, of the linked page, are as follows:
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland
Evan Ragland
Evan Ragland, immigrant ancestor and claimed to have royal blood through the Barons Burgavenny (aka Abergavenny).
The royal lineage was claimed in: The Raglands - The History of a British-American Family, Volume I and II, by Charles Ragland, Jr
It was disproved by Will Johnson on 24 Oct 2008 in a posting to soc.genealogy.medieval, "Re: Comprehensive descents from E3" citing this page to show that there was no son James Morgan.
See Also
* Bogus Gateways
----
But this 'bogussing' may just be careless from the part of the disprover.
WJho...@aol.com
qs...@yahoo.com writes:
where in the books of Charles Ragland did YOU find a claim that James Morgan
were a scion of the Abergavenny aristocratic family ??>>
You-re right. I assumed from the thread that the person citing this book as
the source meant that all of what she posted was from that source.
So what I need to do, when I get to my office is fix up that page, to cite
to this conversation, and additionally state that his book states that James
was base-born.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
no registration required and great graphics – check it out!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
jhigg...@yahoo.com
I've now had the opportunity to look at both volumes of the Ragland
work. I agree with Gordon Kirkemo's assessment of the level of
genealogical scholarship in the work - it's not very good at citing
specific sources but at least there's evidence of considerable
research. Volume 2 is unfortunately of lesser quality in this regard
than volume 1, as the author (as he notes in his foreword to volume 2)
has specifically not provided footnotes or citations, for the sake of
efficiency in production and cost reduction and, strangely, because
"such an addition would not realistically increase its value" .
Despite this, the author's charts of descents do appear to agree
generally with the commonly accepted accounts of the families involved
- although I haven't checked every generation or every single detail.
No specific support is given for the statement that James Morgan who
mar. Mary Jenkin was a base son of Sir Thomas Morgan who mar. Cicely
Herbert, but I'd bet that this could be verified by an interested
person who has access to one or another the standard collections of
Welsh pedigrees (in this case, probably Clark's Limbus Patrum
Morganiae et Glamorganiae - which is on film at the FHL).
As mentioned previously in this thread, Charles Ragland's book does
not assert that Ewan Ragland the emigrant was descended from Edward
III. This claim, however, is mentioned in passing by another book on
the Ragland family genealogy: "Genealogies of the Ragland Families",
by Margaret Miriam Hale Strong (1928). The claim is made in a very
cursory overview of the family's English ancestry, but no specific
descent is shown nor are any sources given for the assertion.
Weirdly, the book also claims that a Raglan [sic] son married a
daughter of the Beaufort family (scions of John of Gaunt) but this is
clearly ridiculous.
marianne dillow
I wish Volume II on the Raglands had a better lead in from Volume I. It was my mistake on Cicely Morgan. I must have made an error when I transferred names from the book and the charts to my Family Tree Maker. I have had to delete a lot of names that was leading from her because of my error. Sorry !!
I wish anyone who has access to those charts and access to the Welsh publication you have mentioned would do it if possible because much work has gone into the two volumes and there are Ragland descndants all over the US from Evan Ragland, the immigrant, from his parents Thomas Ragland and Jane Morgan that was taken from the two volumes. I can't make the trip to Memphis where Volune I is located.
I have scattered charts in my basement from the Ragland book that I xeroxed out of Vol I that led to my direct lineage. But that is all I have except some history of the time frame and also on Raglan Castle as xeroxing was too expensive for me to do the entire book. I haven't located them yet because of an injury to my hand.
I feel like Gordon Kirkemo, that the volumes were done in good faith and has merit although as he said there is sources left out and info we wish we had access to.If were not kin to Edward III that is OK as I think we just want the true lineage wherever it leads. :)
Best Regards,
Marianne Dillow
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, jhigg...@yahoo.com <jhigg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: jhigg...@yahoo.com <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Ragland
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
WJho...@aol.com
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Evan_Ragland)
with the latest information.
And for those curious enough to add this line to your databases, there are
snippet views of Volume I through Google Books for example
_http://books.google.com/books?id=dDdMAAAAMAAJ&dq=robet+ragland+alice+matthew&
q=Marie+Ingram&pgis=1#search_ (http://books.go
ogle.com/books?id=dDdMAAAAMAAJ&dq=robet+ragland+alice+matthew&q=Marie+Ingram&pgis=1#search)
second son
stating that that Thomas Ragland who married Marie Ingram was the second son
of his parents.
Trying various words, you can retrieve a few more useful tidbits
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 10/25/2008 2:26:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kir...@comcast.net writes:
Philip ap Llewelyn ap Ivor, Esq.,
Purchased Langstone manor, Gwen in
1382 and d. 1427, m. Maud, dau. & h.
to Sir John Norris, Knt., of Penllyn
Castle, Glamorgan.
|
|
Jenkin ap Philip ap Morgan, Lord of
Langstone manor, Gwent, d. 1441, m.
Cecily, dau. of Sir John Welsh, Knt.,
Lord of Llanwern, Gwent.>>
---------------------------------------
Hmm that's odd.
The son calls himself "son of Philip son of Morgan"
but the father calls himself "son of Llewellyn, son of Ivor" ?