I don't know if there was a previous, deceased Richard in the family but
Kirkburton PRs record a baptism in 1744 of two Richards (Storth IIRC)
"they being twindles".

Message has been deleted

Shawn Potter

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Dec 1, 2022, 9:45:58 AM12/1/22

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A Kettle account of "twindles" does have a nice ring to it. ;) Yet chronology presents a problem for that explanation. We estimate that Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, was born about 1513 in light of several life events, including his completion of a Bachelor of Civil Law degree at the University of Oxford on 17 Feb 1532/3, and our discovery, analysis, and illustration of a 16 Sep 1534 deed from Richard Weston of Brereton, brother of John Weston of Lichfield (called of Rugeley in the deed), to that Richard's nephew, also named Richard, who we ultimately conclude was later Justice of the Common Pleas. For a complete account of all this see Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022), 32-37 and 123-124. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

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Dec 2, 2022, 11:08:22 AM12/2/22

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Hi Shawn,

Thank you for your quick and detailed response, your knowledge and immediate recall of subject matter, as well as the related documents is very impressive.

I thought about commenting in my original post about Richard Weston of Rugeley's church wall memorial and its prominent display of the eagle arms. According to this source cited earlier, "Lord Weston was created Earl of Portland in 1632, and after the investigations which led to the compilation by Sir William Segar, Garter King of Arms, of the “ Westonorum antiquissime et equestris Familiae Genealogia,” the more ancient bearing of the eagle was placed in the first quarter, and at the funeral of the Earl his escutcheon bore, 1st and 8th, Or, an eagle displayed regardant sable (Weston); 2nd, Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants (Weston)." https://books.google.ca/books?id=CDI9AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA508#v=onepage&q&f=false

I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms. For example, the Westons of Sutton Palace also used the ermine, on a chief azure five bezants arms and in one of the images of the pedigree, we can see the similar arms for Maria Weston, daughter of William Weston, Esq. of Kent, mother of Anne Weston (wife of Nicholas Bacon).

At the same time, since John Weston's seal and three sons bore the "ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with martlet for difference" arms (if we infer that the doubtful arms of Simon Weston in 1580s were actually his father's, James Weston's), it is not clear to me if John Weston and his sons adopted the eagle arms in the 1500s; if they didn't, then the impaled Neville arms would have been commissioned later. However, I also note the "ermine, on a chief azure five bezants" arms displayed prominently on the Church Wall Memorial referenced in your book. It's a minor point, but since I have an amateur's interest in heraldry, I was curious to learn more about it.

Lastly, I noticed that as the result of your book, Wikitree was updated to change Ceclia's status as the daughter of Ralph Neville from uncertain to confident and that there's also a new research notes page in support of this: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston

All the best,

Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 3:24:50 PM12/2/22

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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms....

Hi Andrew,

Thank you again for your kind words and your good questions and comments. My wife and I are grateful to you.

To once more summarize, as you mentioned, your source, on page 508, notes: “The earliest armorial bearings of the Westons of Weston-under-Lyzard was an eagle displayed, and seals prove that this eagle was frequently regardant.” And, as I mentioned in my earlier note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. These seals, with their arms, illustrate that the Weston families of Rugeley and Lichfield were entitled to, and did, display the arms argent an eagle displayed sable from the time of Sir Hamo de Weston, generation after generation, to the time of the publication of the Weston pedigree. This was not a recent development connected with the publication of the Weston pedigree.

In light of this, one wonders how Waters could have written: “[Justice Weston] bore Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with a martlet for difference…. They are wholly different from the arms of the Westons of Rugeley, which were Or, an eagle displayed regardant sable; but it is significant that when the pedigree of 1632 was compiled, Lord Weston assumed the coat of the eagle, and in the same year Segar granted both coats to Richard Weston of Rugeley and his cousins at Lichfield.” See Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1:95. Waters tried to cite heraldic evidence in support of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication. Yet an examination of the records reveals that his assertion is without merit.

For those who want to know more about the Weston pedigree controversy, we address the assertion of fabrication by Waters – and examine Weston pedigree documentation as well as independent contemporary records – in our book Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

By the way, final resolution of this controversy should be of special interest to the estimated five million Americans who trace their ancestries to Weston family immigrants Jeremy Clarke and Frances Latham of Newport, Rhode Island; Elizabeth Cooke and Rev. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts; and Stephen Terry and Jane Hardey of Dorchester, Massachusetts.

Shawn

ps bumppo

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Dec 2, 2022, 5:01:07 PM12/2/22

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Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia Neville-John Weston connection. As it is my same great grandmother who is my James Cudworth connection (for those familiar with that morass of, seemingly never to be rectified, questions) who is also descended from William Walton, I feel closer to my third proven Royal lineage from here in Plymouth County (Edmund Hawes and Edward Raynsford are my first two). I won't tell you how many Mayflower lines I have proven:-), but in my retirement I have moved on to Royal/Charlemagne lines. Proving 20-30 generations is so much more difficult that my typically 10-12 from The Mayflower. I also have a strong George Morton heritage so am following with interest the Morton of Bawtry line on this great board, also.

Great fun, Thanks again Shawn, and to all who are making such great observations and citing of sources.

Paul Bumpus

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 5:31:28 PM12/2/22

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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:01:07 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here ....

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your kind words. My wife and I appreciate your encouragement. Since you mentioned your royal lines, you may be interested in the Clarke, Terry, and Walton royal lines in Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022), 129-130. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/ And you may enjoy the lists of additional Weston royal descents, including from Charlemagne, in the appendices.

Shawn

CLARKE DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (to Ed. III)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas = Weburgh Catesby
10. Sir Jerome Weston of Roxwell = Mary Cave
11. Mary Weston = William Clarke of East Farleigh
12. Jeremy Clarke of Newport, RI = Frances Latham

TERRY DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (to Ed. III)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
10. Isabel Ball = John White of Stanton
11. Mary White = Rev. John Terry of Stockton
12. Stephen Terry of Dorchester, MA = Jane Hardey

WALTON DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (to Ed. III)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
10. Isabel Ball = John White of Stanton
11. Martha White = Rev. William Cooke of Crediton
12. Elizabeth Cooke = Rev. William Walton of Marblehead, MA

Dec 5, 2022, 6:50:35 PM12/5/22

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This James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)

His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
They also had an eldest son
Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577

See

Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of
Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),
497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James
Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas
Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's
Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a
Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael
Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
91. ...... i)

Shawn Potter

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Dec 5, 2022, 6:53:00 PM12/5/22

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On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 5:57:22 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> "In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...

Hi Johnny,

Thank you for your observation. We ordered and carefully examined this manuscript in 2011. It is a single page, with no information about the informant, the herald who sketched the line, or the date of creation. It is associated with no supporting evidence. So it is impossible to assess its credibility, especially where it deviates from other well-documented records. It shows brothers Thomas Weston and John Weston, sons of William Weston of Prested Hall, as husbands successively of ... daughter of Neville, Lord Abergavenny, and one or the other couple -- or perhaps both couples (the lines are indistinctly drawn) as the parents of Edmund Weston; Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland; James Weston of Lichfield; Richard Weston; and Christopher Weston. When we compared this single unsourced document with the Weston pedigree, which is supported by more than 200 pages of contemporary records -- including deeds, testimony from near relatives, and church monuments, we concluded that this document is in error.

Shawn

Will Johnson

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Dec 5, 2022, 6:53:16 PM12/5/22

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Sir Symon Weston
Symon /Weston/ of Lichfield, co Staf -1598-; esq -1598-; Knt; MP 1624-6; W
married Mary Lloyd and had a daughter and heiress Elizabeth
who marreid
Robert Ridgway, Knt 1608; 2nd Earl of /Londonderry/ 1631-

Which adds an E3 descent for these Earls of Londonderry which I had not previously had

Will Johnson

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Dec 5, 2022, 7:03:39 PM12/5/22

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The will of this James Weston is abstracted here

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

Shawn Potter

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Dec 5, 2022, 7:15:36 PM12/5/22

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On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:03:39 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> The will of this James Weston is abstracted here
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

A digital image of the whole will is available through online download for a small fee. We make multiple references to his will in our book. Will of James Weston, Lichfield, co. Stafford, England, dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589, Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, PROB 11/73, The National Archives, London, UK.

Shawn Potter

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Dec 7, 2022, 11:23:02 AM12/7/22

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When my wife and I first read the argument by Waters in support of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication, we were startled by his following statement. “I subjoin an abstract of the Wills of Robert and James Weston to show that they omit all notice of Richard Weston the Judge, and his children, and of his sister Mrs. Slade, and her children; whilst Richard in his Will (p. 85 [sic. 87-88]) is equally silent about his supposed brothers and sisters.” See Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley, Their Ancestors and Descendants (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1: 94. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/OaxCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22i+subjoin+an+abstract+of+the+wills%22&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

We wondered why a reputable genealogist and barrister would suggest that the absence of the name of a testator’s brother in his will was evidence that the testator and his unnamed brother were not brothers. There was, and is, no requirement for testators to name brothers in their wills. Sir William Blackstone explained that, from before the Conquest until recent times, a widow was entitled to one third of her husband’s estate, children were entitled to one third of their father’s estate, and the testator could dispose of one third of his estate as he chose. Blackstone goes on to say that, during the 17th and early 18th centuries, laws were enacted throughout the realm that allowed testators to dispose of all their personal estates by will. See William Blackstone, Knt., Commentaries on the Laws of England (London: A. Strahan, 1825), 2: 491-493. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_England/dlQUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=wills

We also wondered why so many people accepted, and continue to repeat, such a meritless argument. We have no answer for this, or for the previous, question.

This observation led to our decision to examine all of Waters’ arguments in detail and review the Weston pedigree documentation and independent records for ourselves. As our project progressed, we were surprised to discover that none of Waters’ arguments are persuasive, and documents that accompany the pedigree, together with independent records, support the two statements in the Weston pedigree that Waters singled out for criticism – that Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn Potter

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Dec 7, 2022, 4:33:48 PM12/7/22

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On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.

28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois
9. Jeanne de Valois = William III, Graaf van Holland
8. Philippa of Hainault = Edward III, King of England
7. John “of Gaunt,” Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
6. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
5. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford
4. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
3. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Margaret Booth
2. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Elizabeth Sandys
1. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield

Leslie Mahler

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Dec 8, 2022, 1:15:49 AM12/8/22

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On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 7:57:10 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:03:04 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Twelve years ago, I summarized my work on the 1633 Weston pedigree by the College of Arms here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QozzNrcLPPY/m/7kkDUgcx-f8J
> > . I quickly concluded that a formal presentation was needed, drafted an article, and then had to put that work on hold due to other commitments.
> >
> > Now that I am retired, my wife and I have published our research in a new book entitled Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms. You can find it in multiple formats here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/. We not only present the evidence that we found so many years ago -- and more, we also share images of the manuscript documentation, thanks to permission by the British Library.
> >
> > We would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of the book.
> >
> > Best,
> > Shawn Potter
> I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.

Just by way of a reminder, Douglas Richardson & Matthew Tompkins posted
several records for this family, which are much earlier than the Weston Pedigree:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw

And Brad Verity made several comments:

"Shawn and Joe need Cecily Neville to have been the wife of John Weston of Lichfield in order to give John Weston's daughter Alice, and her descendants, ancestors which trace back to Edward III and earlier monarchs. Otherwise, there is no royal ancestry for Alice Weston Ball. "

"It's not our fault you aren't happy with the result: that no Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, can be found in any records from the early 1500s, except for the one deed allegedly from 1526, that is no longer where the 1632 Weston pedigree stated it had been (Chillingham in Staffordshire). "

Leslie

Message has been deleted

Shawn Potter

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Dec 8, 2022, 8:35:49 AM12/8/22

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On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw

Hi Leslie,

Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2022 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to those who are willing to examine original records – which my wife and I have done. Please see our work Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn

Johnny Brananas

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Dec 8, 2022, 11:22:30 AM12/8/22

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There could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:

--John, son and heir of Richard Weston.
--Elizabeth Marler, previously the wife of Richard Weston, and John Carter, executors of Thomas Marler.
--The profits of the manor of Prested [Essex].

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/bB4RAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+carter%22+%22thomas+marler%22+prested&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover

Presumably this Richard was the one who died in 1541, with a wife Elizabeth and son John:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/-AEOby-E5U0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22richard+weston%22+prested&pg=PA135&printsec=frontcover

Johnny Brananas

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Dec 8, 2022, 12:16:28 PM12/8/22

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--George Nevell.
--Ralph Weston and others.
--A grammar school at Rugeley [Stafford].

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/7O8MAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=weston

Shawn Potter

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Dec 8, 2022, 1:08:12 PM12/8/22

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On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 12:16:28 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > There could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:

Hi Johnny,

I suspect you are right about the possibility of finding other records about the family of William Weston of Prested Hall. We have looked at the ones you mention.

Waters cites Morant (1768) as the first to suggest that Justice Weston was a descendant of the Weston family of Prested Hall, while lamenting the fact that Morant did not provide any support for his claim; and then Waters (1878) himself described Justice Weston as a member of the Weston family of Prested Hall, again without citing any records to make the connection. I suspect both Morant and Waters would have cited evidence of the connection if they had been able to find any.

During our research, we ordered and examined images of the more than 200 pages of manuscript documentation that accompanies the Weston pedigree, along with numerous independent contemporary records. The considerable evidence we discovered includes contemporary deeds, testimony from near relatives, statements by independent observers (such as the Archbishop of Canterbury and members of parliament), inheritance of valuable property, and inscriptions on church monuments – to name just a few. All these records point to the same conclusion – Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. We present all this evidence in our book.

We also examine and evaluate the statements by Morant and Waters in our book. Our conclusion, based on our research, is that they both noticed similar Weston names in Essex County, where Justice Weston later settled and died, imagined the Prested Hall family connection, and published their supposition as fact; and then genealogists repeated their mistakes, without careful review of the original records, for almost 250 years.

Shawn

taf

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Dec 8, 2022, 2:10:52 PM12/8/22

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On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 1:33:48 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
>

The journal name is Foundations, with Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy being its descriptive subtitle. The article can be read here:
https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/volume-2/category/47-fnd-2-2

I have no expertise in this area, but feel it is worth pointing out that this is not a proven descent, having several speculative/uncertain links that merit elaboration, lest some naive reader misinterpret its representation without qualification here as reflecting certainty.

> 28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
> 27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
> 26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
> 25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
> 24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____

There are multiple reconstructions of the Armenian princely family, and not all are in agreement that this is the line that connected Apuganem with Bagrat.

pj.ev...@gmail.com

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Dec 8, 2022, 9:38:42 PM12/8/22

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Will, get a dictionary and learn to use it.
Constable (American Heritage College Dictionary, 4th edition):
1) A police officer with less authority and smaller jurisdiction than a sheriff
2) A medieval officer of high rank, usually serving as military commander in the absence of a monarch
3) The governor of a royal castle
4) (Chiefly British) A police officer

2 and 3 are clearly older meanings of the word.

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Dec 9, 2022, 9:58:08 AM12/9/22

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On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:42:15 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:
> Of course, your book goes into much more detail than I can present on a webpage, and I would encourage anyone truly interested to read it for themselves.

Thank you again, Joe, for your continued support. My wife and I agree with your advice that those who want to understand the Weston pedigree controversy should read our book. We present important discoveries that have never been discussed here; illustrate – in accordance with a license from the British Library – 22 pages of the Weston pedigree documentation; and assess a variety of independent contemporary records that confirm the two statements singled out by Waters for criticism – that Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. The evidence is so overwhelming, and the allegations by Waters are so baseless, that my earlier questions bear repeating: Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why did so many people accept and repeat his meritless arguments for almost 250 years? Readers can find our book in multiple formats here – Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn

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Dec 9, 2022, 8:23:01 PM12/9/22

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On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> Was Waters merely mistaken about every one of his five arguments in support of his claim?

Reference my previous questions: Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why did so many people accept and repeat his meritless arguments for almost 250 years? Here are my thoughts.

We know that “to err is human.” And we have no reason to suspect that something sinister motivated Waters, so we propose that he merely made a series of spectacular mistakes.

Writing under the anagram TEWARS in 1872, Waters expressed his admirable motives when he wrote: “Those who are striving to rescue genealogy from the degradation of ministering to vanity, and to restore it to its proper place as the auxiliary of history and truth, will be discouraged by three genealogical papers which were thought worth of insertion in “N. & Q.” of April 6, 1872.” Waters was pursuing a noble goal.

Waters went on to argue in that article that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication because the pedigree shows Richard Weston, Knt., 1st Earl of Portland, to be a lineal descendant of Reginald de Balliol, Lord of Weston. How Waters could have made such a glaring mistake is a mystery to us. We illustrate images from the Weston pedigree in our book, revealing that the lineage shows no genealogical connection between Reginald de Balliol, Lord of Weston, and Hamo de Weston, Knt., of Weston and Blemenhull, earliest ancestor of the Weston family of Staffordshire.

Is it possible that Waters never saw the Weston pedigree, and relied solely on the notes of some unworthy assistant? As Rabbit says to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, possible! 😊 But we do not know. At the same time, in 1878, Waters compounded his initial error by offering additional proofs of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication, each one of which collapses under simple scrutiny and a review of Weston pedigree documents together with independent records. The enthusiasm and certainty with which Waters made these errors again are a genuine mystery to us. Should we beware the noble warrior who pursues even a worthy cause with such zeal?

What about the question of why so many people accepted and repeated for so many years Waters’ meritless arguments. Was it too difficult for the average genealogist to examine the original copies of the Weston pedigree themselves to directly assess the claims made by Waters? As Rabbit again says to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, could be! 😊 Again, we do not know. When Waters made his claim in 1878, access to the original manuscripts would have been a considerable challenge. And by the time photocopies were affordable and available, general acceptance of the claims by Waters may have become so great that no one bothered to examine the records for themselves.

The Weston pedigree presents a compelling reminder that it is important to always assess the work of others, even respected experts, and examine contemporary documentation. See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn

Brad Verity

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Dec 9, 2022, 10:12:33 PM12/9/22

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On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 10:15:49 PM UTC-8, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> And Brad Verity made several comments:
> "Shawn and Joe need Cecily Neville to have been the wife of John Weston of Lichfield in order to give John Weston's daughter Alice, and her descendants, ancestors which trace back to Edward III and earlier monarchs. Otherwise, there is no royal ancestry for Alice Weston Ball. "
> "It's not our fault you aren't happy with the result: that no Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, can be found in any records from the early 1500s, except for the one deed allegedly from 1526, that is no longer where the 1632 Weston pedigree stated it had been (Chillingham in Staffordshire). "

Thank you, Leslie.

On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 5:23:01 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Weston pedigree presents a compelling reminder that it is important to always assess the work of others, even respected experts, and examine contemporary documentation.

Agreed, Shawn.

On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 2:31:28 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> TERRY DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND
[snip]
> 6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
> 7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
> 8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
> 9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield

What is the contemporary documentation for Generation 8 above?

Thanks and Cheers, -----Brad

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Dec 10, 2022, 8:47:30 AM12/10/22

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On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:12:33 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:

> What is the contemporary documentation for Generation 8 above?

Hi Brad,

Thank you for your comment, I was hoping to hear your opinion on the subject.

With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland. The charter, in conjunction with the detailed, referenced pedigree and the Weston correspondence would have been more than sufficient proof for a spouse from a less noble family, but in this case, the obvious red flag is why would the sister of a future Earl be married to a family of much lower station (although probably armigerous and wealthy), especially since, she would have been a valuable heiress should have her brother died. We can only speculate on the answer, but Shawn's book discusses documented connections between the Westons of Lichfield and family of Isabel Booth, grandmother of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland, (via the Advowson and Prebend of Sawley), as well the family of the guardian of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland (via the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist from the Stafford family).

Additionally, I don't recall the outcome of the past discussion about the veracity of the 1526 charter (which is absolutely crucial to the Neville descent), but the heralds found the charter in possession of a descendant of one of the witnesses, Andrew Giffard. I think analyzing the original document through a forensic lens would certainly help reinforce its credibility, especially in light of combined circumstantial evidence collected by the heralds as part of their research.

Happy holidays to you and yours,

Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 10, 2022, 10:41:20 AM12/10/22

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On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 8:47:30 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> Hi Brad,
> Thank you for your comment, I was hoping to hear your opinion on the subject.

Hi Andrew,

I appreciate your intentions, but your brief comments are incomplete and therefore misleading. They do not, and cannot, do justice to the 50 pages about this matter in our book. Readers should have the benefit of considering each and every contemporary document that we discovered, along with our “boring discussion” and illustration of them, before trying to render a judgment about whether we have presented sufficient evidence to identify Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, as the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and their siblings. We believe any fair minded reader will conclude that we present an overwhelming case in the affirmative. See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

You also reference past discussions here about the Weston pedigree. To my knowledge, no one, other than my wife and I, who commented on our discoveries in 2011 ever examined the Weston pedigree itself, with all its accompanying documentation. Yet they felt qualified to join Waters – who also appears to have never examined the manuscript – in declaring the Weston pedigree to be a fabrication. I would not give their passing comments more credibility than our presentation, discussion, and illustration of the evidence in our book.

Shawn

Brad Verity

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Dec 10, 2022, 8:33:32 PM12/10/22

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On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 5:47:30 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

Thank you for this response to my specific question, Andrew.

> The charter, in conjunction with the detailed, referenced pedigree and the Weston correspondence would have been more than sufficient proof for a spouse from a less noble family, but in this case, the obvious red flag is why would the sister of a future Earl be married to a family of much lower station (although probably armigerous and wealthy), especially since, she would have been a valuable heiress should have her brother died.

I'm going to put aside the argument as to whether or not a sister and potential co-heiress of the Earl of Westmorland would be married to a local Staffordshire gentry family. I know I made the case against it some years back, but it remains speculative at this point. The 4th Earl's known sister and potential co-heiress Isabel Neville was married as a second wife to a prominent Yorkshire gentryman Sir Robert Plumpton. Their maternal half-sister Elizabeth Darcy was married to another prominent Yorkshire gentryman, Sir Marmaduke Constable. Plumpton was knighted before his marriage to Isabel Neville. Constable was knighted after his marriage to Elizabeth Darcy. More study into their careers may be helpful, before making a comparison to the career of John Weston of Lichfield, to determine where each fell on the level of early 16th-century social status. Plumpton's long involvement in lawsuits greatly hurt his finances, despite his knighthood. Isabel (Neville) Plumpton wrote to her husband, "Sir, for God's sake take an end, for we are brought to beggar staffe" [Plumpton's ODNB entry]. So wealth and financial security could have outweighed a lower social status for this family in the early 1500s.

Joe Cochoit has provided a very useful summation of the arguments for and against Cecily Weston as the sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland in her Wikitree page. Joe has included the full text of the 1526 charter:

"The full text of the 1526 charter (BM Add MS 18667, fol. 101), translated, reads as follows:
[fo. 101 recto] Original at Chillington
"Know all men, present and future, that I, John Weston of Rugeley the elder, gent., have given, granted and in this my present charter have confirmed to John Giffard, knt., John Knightley, esq., and John Wolsley, gent., all my messuage in Lichfield, with all my lands and tenements, meadows, grazings and pastures, rents, reversions and services with all and singular their appurtenances belonging to the aforementioned messuage, and also the whole of my meadow called Hams in Linhurst, to have and to hold the messuage and meadow aforesaid and other premises with their appurtenances to the aforementioned John Gifford, John Kniteley and John [60] Wolseley, their heirs and assigns, to the use of John Weston the younger, [61] my son, and Cecily his wife, sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland, and their heirs and assigns forever, to hold from the Chief Lord of that fee by the service therefrom due and lawfully customary. And I the aforesaid John Weston and my heirs will warrant and forever defend the messuage and meadow aforesaid and other premises with their appurtenances to to the aforementioned John Giffard, John Knightley, John Wolsley, their heirs and assigns, to the aforesaid use against all men. Know further that I the aforementioned John Weston have appointed and put in my place my beloveds in Christ Roger Trusell and Alan Orel my true and lawful attorneys to deliver for me and in my name to the aforementioned John Giffard, John, and John Wolsley full and peaceful seisin of and in the messuage and meadow aforesaid and other premises with their appurtenances according to the force, form and effect of this my present Charter holding and to hold [fo. 101 verso] as ratified and pleasing all and anything my attorneys or either of them shall do in my name in delivery of the aforesaid seisin exactly as if I myself were there personally. In witness whereof I have affixed my seal to this my present Charter of enfeoffment. Dated at Lichfield, the fifteenth day of July in the eighteenth year of the reign of king Henry the eighth. [15 July 1526]"
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston#1526_Charter_.28translation.29

I'm confused as to who translated this charter.

Let's assume for the moment for argument's sake that it is genuine. What is the purpose? John Weston the elder is transferring his chief property, and all of his other holdings in Lichfield, to three feoffees to hold those properties for the use of his son John Weston the younger, and for John the younger's wife Cecily. It has all the appearance of a marriage settlement.

So it's very helpful to compare this to the marriage settlement of Sir Robert Plumpton and Isabel Neville. Thomas Stapleton, in his 'Plumpton Letters', does not unfortunately include a full transcription of the settlement, but he does abstract from it [pg. 197 note a]: "Dame Isabel Plumpton, their daughter, was married to Sir Robert Plumpton, of Plumpton, com. Ebor kt. about 18 Sep. 21 Hen. VII. 1505, for by deed of that date, the latter conveyed to Sir William Sand, kt. (afterwards the first Lord Sands), Sir John Rainsford, kt. Sir John Norton, kt. Edward Rainesford, esq. Thomas Ratclife, gent. Thomas Pigot, esq. Richard Mauleverey, esq. and William Croft, chaplain, all his lands and tenements lying in the vills and fields of Knarsbrough, Matheloftus near Knarsbrough, Heuby, Elthwatehill near Harwode, Ripon, Acton, Spopherd field, and Arkendon, in the county of York; which feoffees settled the same premises the day but one following upon Sir Robert Plumpton, of Plumpton, kt. and Isabella his wife, and either of them, the longer liver. (Chartul. No. 825-6-7.)"
https://archive.org/details/plumptoncorrespo04plumuoft/page/197/mode/2up

When we compare the Weston and the Plumpton deeds, supposedly the marriage settlements of two Neville sisters, a couple points stand out:

1) The Weston deed of 1526 is a full twenty-one years after the Plumpton deed of 1505. Why would the marriages of two sisters, both of whom would have to have been born between 1491 and 1498, be a full twenty years apart? Especially when the marriage licence of their younger half sister Elizabeth Darcy to Marmaduke Constable was in 1514:
"1514, April 26. Licence for Marmaduke, son and heir of Sir Robert Constable, ant. par. Hotham, and Elizabeth Darcy of Templehurst par. Birkin, to be married in the chapel within the manor-house of Templehurst. Banns once."
https://archive.org/details/publicationssur05socigoog/page/n375/mode/2up

2) Why is John Weston's wife Cecily specifically identified in the 1526 deed as "sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland"? There is no such identification of Isabel wife of Sir Robert Plumpton in the 1505 marriage settlement.

3) Why are there no feoffees in the 1526 Weston deed from the Neville, Darcy or Sandys families, to safeguard the interests of John Weston of Lichfield's wife Cecily, if she was a near relation to them? Notice that the first-named feoffee in the 1505 Plumpton deed is Isabel (Neville) Plumpton's maternal uncle Sir William (later 1st Lord) Sandys. He was still living in 1526.

> We can only speculate on the answer, but Shawn's book discusses documented connections between the Westons of Lichfield and family of Isabel Booth, grandmother of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland, (via the Advowson and Prebend of Sawley), as well the family of the guardian of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland (via the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist from the Stafford family).

Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, would only have had the guardianship of the 4th Earl of Westmorland. Any sisters would have remained in the care of their mother Edith (Sandys), Lady Neville, and her second husband Sir Thomas (later Lord) Darcy.

It's worth noting that Isabel Plumpton is assumed to be the daughter of Edith (Sandys) Lady Neville because in a letter written by Lady Edith to Lady Plumpton, she states, "Written in haste by the hand of your mother". Clearly Isabel Plumpton was named for her paternal grandmother Isabel (Booth), Countess of Westmorland. But the earliest Isabel could have been born is 1491, making her only 14 or 15 when she married the 52-year-old widower Sir Robert Plumpton in 1505. In a letter she wrote to Sir Robert not too long after the marriage, Isabel signs it "Be your bedfellow". There is some chronological difficulty making Isabel (Neville) Plumpton a consummated bride when only in her mid-teens. It may be possible that she was from Ralph Lord Neville's first marriage to Mary Paston (19 January 1471 - 25 December 1489), and her mother Edith Lady Neville was in reality her stepmother. That would open the possibility of making her two to three years older when she married in 1505.

> Additionally, I don't recall the outcome of the past discussion about the veracity of the 1526 charter (which is absolutely crucial to the Neville descent), but the heralds found the charter in possession of a descendant of one of the witnesses, Andrew Giffard. I think analyzing the original document through a forensic lens would certainly help reinforce its credibility, especially in light of combined circumstantial evidence collected by the heralds as part of their research.

Given that the original charter from 1526 cannot be located, and that this charter is the sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, can we be certain that the herald who examined it didn't mis-transcribe it? If Richard Weston, 1st Earl of Portland, was insisting in 1630-32 when this pedigree was being created, that he was descended from the Neville Earls of Westmorland, how easy would it have been for the herald who examined the 1526 settlement deed to insert the phrase "sororis Radi Com. Westmoreland" after the words "Cecilie uxoris ejus"? Who would ever in 1632, over one hundred years after this purported deed was written, bother to fact-check it? Why would anyone even challenge it or question Portland's descent? The 6th and last Neville Earl of Westmorland had died in exile in 1601.

I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl of Westmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a deed, abstracted by Segar ... but even if this deed be genuine, it is in the silence of all other authorities a very unsatisfactory proof of Cecily's parentage."
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalmem01wategoog/page/n150/mode/2up

> Happy holidays to you and yours,

Thank you, and all the joy of the season to you.

Cheers, ----Brad

Brad Verity

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Dec 10, 2022, 8:51:10 PM12/10/22

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On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> Joe Cochoit has provided a very useful summation of the arguments for and against Cecily Weston as the sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland in her Wikitree page. Joe has included the full text of the 1526 charter:

Whoops! One last point I meant to make in my previous post.

John Weston of Lichfield and his wife Cecily were blessed with five sons. Yet they did not give the name of 'Ralph' to any of them. Odd, if the illustrious Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was Cecily's brother. Also, one of their daughters, Alice, was named for her paternal grandmother Alice (Edshaw) Weston. It's curious that they did not name a daughter for the well-known Edith (Sandys), Lady Neville, a prominent fixture in the Tudor court (an account of her funeral is given by Thomas Stapleton in 'The Plumpton Correspondence'), given that Cecily weston is supposed to have been Lady Neville's daughter.

Cheers, -----Brad

pj.ev...@gmail.com

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Dec 10, 2022, 10:39:53 PM12/10/22

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On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:

This deed appears in their book, in both Latin and in this translation, which is credited to Mathew Tompkins. It does refer to Cecily as sister of the Earl of Westmorland:
"Iohīs Weston Iuniores filii mei et Cecilie uxoris eius sororis Rađi Comitis Westmorƚ"

Shawn Potter

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Dec 10, 2022, 11:34:03 PM12/10/22

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On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 8:33:32 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl of Westmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a deed, abstracted by Segar ... but even if this deed be genuine, it is in the silence of all other authorities a very unsatisfactory proof of Cecily's parentage."

Hi Brad,

You base your arguments on a series of assumptions that are unlikely to be true. In fact, in light of the evidence we provide in our book, we believe all your assumptions are mistaken. So your comments, although clever, merely perpetuate misinformed mistakes of the past. This is why I refer readers to Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

The approximate years of birth of Cecily’s children, which we discuss in the genealogical summary in our book, reveals that the 1526 Weston deed was not executed at the time of her marriage, but rather some 15 years later. One cannot know what considerations determined the choice of feofees at that later date.

We identify Matthew Tompkins as the scholar we employed to translate the deed in our book. We subsequently gave Matthew permission to post the translation here. We present images of the deed along with his translation, and discuss its provenance in our book. Again, our book is the best source for information about the deed.

You are mistaken when you say the deed is the “sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.” So your speculation that the herald may have mistranslated it or, under coercion from the 1st Earl of Portland, inserted erroneous text is another instance of baseless speculation.

Reference your statement regarding the 3rd Duke of Buckingham, we present contemporary evidence in our book that John Weston of Lichfield held the lease of the Manor of St. John the Baptist Hospital from either Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the duke’s son, Henry Stafford, Lord Stafford, brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

John Weston of Lichfield’s son, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, inherited the lease of the manor from his father, and Robert’s son John Weston, Doctor of Civil Law and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford, inherited the lease of the manor from his father. At the same time, James Weston of Lichfield, son of John Weston of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father, and Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father.

We address in our book your misperception that no one in 1632 would fact check the claim in the Weston pedigree that Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and their siblings. Your assumptions are surely mistaken.

We also include a letter in our book from Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, which states: “… my Grandfather Iohn Weston, who whilest he liued in England, liued in the Citty of Lichfeld, and had to wife Cecely, the daughter of Ralph Neuill that died in the life tyme of the Earle of Westmorland his father.” Three witnesses to this letter later witnessed a codicil to Sir Simon’s will. We present images of this letter along with images of Sir Simon’s will, and discuss the same, in our book.

Finally, if you read our assessment of each one of Waters’ meritless claims about the Weston pedigree, I suspect you would not associate yourself with, and continue to repeat, his views.

Shawn

Brad Verity

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Dec 11, 2022, 1:52:23 AM12/11/22

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On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 8:34:03 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> You base your arguments on a series of assumptions that are unlikely to be true. In fact, in light of the evidence we provide in our book, we believe all your assumptions are mistaken.

I hesitated to comment on this at all, Shawn, because I knew it would end up with you arguing your assumptions and me arguing mine. The likelihood of which of our assumptions are true or not, is completely subjective. Given that the only piece of evidence written in the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield is a deed said to be from 1526, the original of which cannot now be located.

> So your comments, although clever, merely perpetuate misinformed mistakes of the past.

They perpetuate an argument put forward by a very competent 19th-century genealogist. I want to make clear that my only interest and examination of this issue is in regards to whether Cecily Weston was the sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. Any other information Segar's 1632 pedigree provides on the Weston family I defer to the expertise of you, your wife, and other genealogical scholars who have studied the family.

> This is why I refer readers to Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

As you have done consistently for the past month. I wish you every success with it, sincerely.

> The approximate years of birth of Cecily’s children, which we discuss in the genealogical summary in our book, reveals that the 1526 Weston deed was not executed at the time of her marriage, but rather some 15 years later. One cannot know what considerations determined the choice of feofees at that later date.

Well, if the 1526 marriage settlement-style deed is thought to have been educated fifteen years after the marriage, two questions arise.

1) Why? Why was Cecily's material security delayed for such a long period of time? Both Edith Lady Neville and the 4th Earl were prominent at court. If Cecily was their daughter and sister, such a long delay in securing her interest is hard to explain.

2) If Cecily had been married for about fifteen years prior to her marriage settlement, and if the 4th Earl of Westmorland was not one of the three feoffees named in the 1526 settlement, then there is even less of a reason to have named his as Cecily's brother within the settlement. Simply settling the properties on John Weston the younger and his wife Cecily would be sufficient for the purpose. There was no need to further identify her as Westmorland's sister.

> We identify Matthew Tompkins as the scholar we employed to translate the deed in our book. We subsequently gave Matthew permission to post the translation here. We present images of the deed along with his translation, and discuss its provenance in our book. Again, our book is the best source for information about the deed.

Matthew Tompkins is an excellent scholar. Well versed in heraldry as well as genealogy.

> You are mistaken when you say the deed is the “sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.”

My source was Andrew's post earlier in this thread: "With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland."

"Contemporary" in this case, implies documents from the lifetime of John and Cecily Weston of Lichfield, so from the early to mid-sixteenth century (I do not have dates of death for either). Are there other documents identifying Cecily as a Neville within that time period?

> So your speculation that the herald may have mistranslated it or, under coercion from the 1st Earl of Portland, inserted erroneous text is another instance of baseless speculation.

It is certainly speculation. I wanted to demonstrate how and why it could have been done. That was the 'base' for it.

> Reference your statement regarding the 3rd Duke of Buckingham, we present contemporary evidence in our book that John Weston of Lichfield held the lease of the Manor of St. John the Baptist Hospital from either Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the duke’s son, Henry Stafford, Lord Stafford, brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

OK. The Staffords were one of the most powerful ennobled dynasties in England, with extensive landed holdings. If you are suggesting the Manor of St. John the Baptist Hospital in Lichfield was held by the Westons from the Staffords because Cecily Weston was a relation of them through the 4th Earl of Westmorland, then it again begs the question of why the three feoffees in the 1526 deed which secured her property rights and financial interests, were not her relations?

> John Weston of Lichfield’s son, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, inherited the lease of the manor from his father, and Robert’s son John Weston, Doctor of Civil Law and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford, inherited the lease of the manor from his father. At the same time, James Weston of Lichfield, son of John Weston of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father, and Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father.

This is all worthwhile research into the Weston family in the 16th-century, and into the early 17th-century, but it has nothing to do with the identification of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield.

> We address in our book your misperception that no one in 1632 would fact check the claim in the Weston pedigree that Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and their siblings. Your assumptions are surely mistaken.

My assumptions *may* be mistaken. They are not "surely" mistaken.

> We also include a letter in our book from Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, which states: “… my Grandfather Iohn Weston, who whilest he liued in England, liued in the Citty of Lichfeld, and had to wife Cecely, the daughter of Ralph Neuill that died in the life tyme of the Earle of Westmorland his father.” Three witnesses to this letter later witnessed a codicil to Sir Simon’s will. We present images of this letter along with images of Sir Simon’s will, and discuss the same, in our book.

Yes, Sir Simon Weston may have been accurate as to the identity of his grandmother. He could also have believed it to be the truth because he was told by other family members, though they themselves were mistaken. Or he could have written the letter at the behest of his cousin Lord Portland.

> Finally, if you read our assessment of each one of Waters’ meritless claims about the Weston pedigree, I suspect you would not associate yourself with, and continue to repeat, his views.

The only claim Waters made regarding the Weston pedigree, which I have any interest in, is the one he made that was skeptical of the identity of Cecily Weston as sister of the Earl of Westmorland. In that claim, which he made in a note on p. 110 of his 1878 work 'Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley'. In that note he quotes in Latin from the 1526 Weston deed, abstracted from the Segar pedigree. Is that not proof that Waters examined the pedigree?

You wrote in an earlier post in this thread: "Some of his [Waters's] statements about the pedigree suggest that he never saw the original records. Was he relying on the work of others? Was he himself deceived?"

This of course is speculation on your part. Though Waters directly quoting in 1878 from Segar's abstract of the 1526 deed in the Latin as it appears in the original 1632-33 pedigree, suggests that Waters did indeed examine the pedigree and its evidences. At least the portion pertaining to John Weston of Lichfield and his wife Cecily.

Cheers, ------Brad

Shawn Potter

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Dec 11, 2022, 3:57:38 AM12/11/22

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On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 1:52:23 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> This of course is speculation on your part. Though Waters directly quoting in 1878 from Segar's abstract of the 1526 deed in the Latin as it appears in the original 1632-33 pedigree, suggests that Waters did indeed examine the pedigree and its evidences. At least the portion pertaining to John Weston of Lichfield and his wife Cecily.

Hi Brad,

I appreciate your reluctance to comment, but the fact that you did illustrates my point. People are inclined to speculate about vexing questions such as the choice of feofees in a 16th century deed without examining the original documents. No matter how artful, bold assertions such as these merely perpetuate erroneous notions about the pedigree.

Sir Simon Weston addressed his letter to Richard Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, who was not a descendant of Cecily, and who was not the Earl of Portland. The provenance of Sir Simon’s letter and its witnesses both suggest that the letter is genuine.

As to your suggestion that Sir Simon may have been mistaken, or was making a false statement at the urging of the Earl of Portland, when he named his grandmother, Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, why assume such an unlikely event. Of course, a novel idea like this would be necessary to continue the fiction that the pedigree is a fabrication; but why would anyone propose or believe such a baseless theory, if not for the meritless arguments by Waters? Waters did not mention Sir Simon’s letter – or much of the other information about Cecily Neville that we present in our book. He may not have been aware of it. I know of no reason to doubt the truthfulness of Sir Simon or question the veracity of his letter.

And Sir Simon's letter is not the only evidence that his grandmother was Cecily Neville. Again, I point those who want to learn more about documents that identify Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, as the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and their siblings to our book, pages 64-114.

Why Waters, writing 250 years later, accused the Earl of Portland of orchestrating a fabrication of the pedigree is a mystery. Perhaps Waters needed to name a culprit to advance his claim. That is surely speculation on my part; but Waters offered no evidence to support his slander against the earl. And why the public has generally believed Waters for 150 years is equally puzzling.

In the latter instance, I suspect people form fixed conclusions, without examining the records, simply because they want to believe Waters. “He is an authority; he said it; and I believe it.” However, I say, examine the original records.

When I suggested that Waters may not have examined the pedigree, I did so on the basis of his numerous erroneous claims about it. To understand how fabulously mistaken he was, you must read our analysis of his claims – or examine the records yourself.

Shawn

Hans Vogels

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Dec 11, 2022, 5:08:56 AM12/11/22

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Op zondag 11 december 2022 om 09:57:38 UTC+1 schreef shp...@gmail.com:

I am bemused by this polite exchange of views on a genealogical issue from centuries back. It is a refreshing dispute that some Americans can take an example. Having no interest in the families mentioned I must do with details in the remarks Brad made. I think they are more then just assumptions.

1. Absence of familiar Neville names in the descending Westons. This is highly peculiar with the Nevilles being so much higher up on the social plane.
From my experience on Dutch noble families around that time and earlier one tended to cherish a descent by repeating familiar names from generations past and one introduced heraldic elements of the descent in the family arms or even adopting the arms one was so proud of descending of.
This is an observation and not an assumption.

2. Brad compares the "settlements" and his two questions do indeed touch the core of the dispute.

>> Well, if the 1526 marriage settlement-style deed is thought to have been educated fifteen years after the marriage, two questions arise.
1) Why? Why was Cecily's material security delayed for such a long period of time? Both Edith Lady Neville and the 4th Earl were prominent at court. If Cecily was their daughter and sister, such a long delay in securing her interest is hard to explain.
2) If Cecily had been married for about fifteen years prior to her marriage settlement, and if the 4th Earl of Westmorland was not one of the three feoffees named in the 1526 settlement, then there is even less of a reason to have named his as Cecily's brother within the settlement. Simply settling the properties on John Weston the younger and his wife Cecily would be sufficient for the purpose. There was no need to further identify her as Westmorland's sister.<<

These are observations too and no assumptions.
In those days people did everything for a reason. To avoid later disputes one used standard retoriek and family to garanty the intend of the settlement. One should hold in mind the five w's: who-what-where-when-why.
The 1526 document stands out and that questions its authenticity.

3. Waters quoted a Latin abstract from the 1526 document. Thus the remark that Waters judged without having seen the document is not correct. Repeating your opinion on the matter and the way Waters behaved does not cut. Brad has certainly a point there.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans Vogels

Peter Stewart

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Dec 11, 2022, 6:36:25 AM12/11/22

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On 11-Dec-22 3:34 PM, Shawn Potter wrote:
> On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 8:33:32 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
>> I'm glad Shawn and his wife have examined the Weston pedigree in detail as it has helped to sort out much about the Weston family. But when it comes to the purported identity of Cecily, wife of John Weston of Lichfield as a sister of the 4th Earl of Westmorland, I remain as skeptical as Robert Edmond Chester Waters was in 1878: "Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or wills of the Nevilles, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a deed, abstracted by Segar ... but even if this deed be genuine, it is in the silence of all other authorities a very unsatisfactory proof of Cecily's parentage."
>
> Hi Brad,
>
> You base your arguments on a series of assumptions that are unlikely to be true. In fact, in light of the evidence we provide in our book, we believe all your assumptions are mistaken. So your comments, although clever, merely perpetuate misinformed mistakes of the past. This is why I refer readers to Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
>
> The approximate years of birth of Cecily’s children, which we discuss in the genealogical summary in our book, reveals that the 1526 Weston deed was not executed at the time of her marriage, but rather some 15 years later. One cannot know what considerations determined the choice of feofees at that later date.
>
> We identify Matthew Tompkins as the scholar we employed to translate the deed in our book. We subsequently gave Matthew permission to post the translation here. We present images of the deed along with his translation, and discuss its provenance in our book. Again, our book is the best source for information about the deed.
>
> You are mistaken when you say the deed is the “sole document from the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield that identifies his wife as sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.” So your speculation that the herald may have mistranslated it or, under coercion from the 1st Earl of Portland, inserted erroneous text is another instance of baseless speculation.
>
> Reference your statement regarding the 3rd Duke of Buckingham, we present contemporary evidence in our book that John Weston of Lichfield held the lease of the Manor of St. John the Baptist Hospital from either Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham, guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the duke’s son, Henry Stafford, Lord Stafford, brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.
>
> John Weston of Lichfield’s son, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, inherited the lease of the manor from his father, and Robert’s son John Weston, Doctor of Civil Law and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford, inherited the lease of the manor from his father. At the same time, James Weston of Lichfield, son of John Weston of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father, and Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, lived in the manor after his father.

According to ODNB John Weston's son and heir Robert was born in or
before 1522 - how is it established that the marriage of his parents had
taken place 15 years before 1526? Do this mean it was contracted ca
1511, or consummated by around then? If it was perhaps not consummated
until around 1521, then how is it proven that Cecily could not have been
a maternal half-sister of Ralph Nevill?

Peter Stewart

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Andrew Z

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Dec 11, 2022, 8:18:05 AM12/11/22

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Hi Brad,

Thank you for taking the time to revisit this question and post a detailed response. Since it would affect the two descents from Edward III for multiple families, I think it's crucial to understand both sides of the argument in order to be able to decide for yourself. I think Shawn and his wife did a great job researching and summarizing the available evidence, which is examined in greater detail in their book to help build the case for the Weston-Neville lineage. However, you certainly raise some important questions to consider.

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 1:52:23 AM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:

> My source was Andrew's post earlier in this thread: "With the exception of the 1526 charter, it is my understanding there are no other contemporary documents specifically referring to Cecily Neville being the sister of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland."
>
> "Contemporary" in this case, implies documents from the lifetime of John and Cecily Weston of Lichfield, so from the early to mid-sixteenth century (I do not have dates of death for either). Are there other documents identifying Cecily as a Neville within that time period?

That was my interpretation of your question and the 1526 deed is the only document from the lifetime of John and Cecily Weston of Lichfield that I see presented in the book as supporting evidence for her being the sister of the 4th Earl of Westmorland.

>Given that the only piece of evidence written in the lifetime of John Weston of Lichfield is a deed said to be from 1526, the original of which cannot now be located.

The image of the deed in the book appears to be a copy made by the heralds and has a heading of "Originat apud Chillington" (Original at Chillington). I do not know if the original has been preserved, located or examined.

All the best,

Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 11, 2022, 9:59:20 AM12/11/22

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When Matt Tompkins, whom Brad describes as “an excellent scholar,” shared the text of the 1526 Weston charter with the group, he wrote: “By this date gentlemen as well as esquires had been armigerous for well over a century, so there is no problem here. Also, although English-language conveyances were beginning to appear at about this time, Latin was still the language used in the vast majority of such documents, so that is not a problem, either. In fact the charter is in every respect in a perfectly normal and credible form, except perhaps for one small but rather important point – the insertion of the phrase ‘sister of Ralph, earl of Westmorland’. Statements of a party’s family connections were normally only included if it was relevant to the title to the property being transferred or necessary for identification purposes – neither purpose applies here. Of course this is hardly proof that the charter is a fake – there are always documents which depart from the norm – but the reference to Cecily’s illustrious family does look a little odd. The charter conveyed a messuage in Lichfield and a piece of meadow in a neighbouring hamlet.”

We believe the records we discovered regarding the Weston pedigree, including about Cecily Neville, which we present in our book, when considered as a whole, confirms that the charter is genuine.

“... of the value of [charters and deeds], ... it may be said that it is very great, as they may be classed among the surest proofs of a genealogy, either from the description of the party making the Charter — some recital relating to his father, mother, wife, children, or other branches of his family — from his Seal of Arms — or the names mentioned as witnesses.” [Stacey Grimaldi, Origines Genealogicae; or, the Sources Whence English Genealogies May Be Traced From the Conquest to the Present Time (London: Printed for Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, and Green, 1828), 18-19.]

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Paulo Ricardo Canedo

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Dec 11, 2022, 11:52:25 AM12/11/22

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Regarding the issue of whether a sister of the Earl of Westmorland would have married a member of the local gentry, as
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston#Other_Objections_Raised notes, Edith Sandys, supposed mother of Cecilia Neville, was from a local gentry family and her mother in law Isabel Booth was barely kore important than her. What do you think of that, Brad? Admittedly, AFAIK, men were more likely than women to marry people from lower status than then.

Shawn Potter

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Dec 11, 2022, 2:09:14 PM12/11/22

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On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 3:57:38 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> When I suggested that Waters may not have examined the pedigree, I did so on the basis of his numerous erroneous claims about it. To understand how fabulously mistaken he was, you must read our analysis of his claims – or examine the records yourself.

Group,

Why is it a mistake to say, “I am only interested in the single question of whether Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, was the wife of John Weston of Lichfield?” This approach is a mistake because the big picture, a review of all the evidence, reveals important insights about this very question.

1. If a person decides that Cecily Neville is a fiction based on the writings of Waters, then it matters if Waters made a number of statements about the pedigree that are demonstrably and spectacularly false. In fact, we believe the scope of the erroneous statements by Waters about the pedigree impeach his credibility as a source regarding any aspect of the document.

2. If, as we demonstrate in our book, Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers – in contrast to the claims by Waters, then the family’s meteoric ascendancy must be explained. The rise of any single individual during this period of social unrest might be explained by intelligence, determination, or mere good fortune. Yet, in only four generations, John Weston of Lichfield’s descendants and their spouses included seven earls, nine knights, a head of England’s treasury, a justice of England’s supreme court for matters of equity, a justice of England’s supreme court for matters of common law, two heads of Ireland’s treasury, a head of Ireland’s judiciary, and a head of Ireland’s legislative affairs. See our book for a chart showing the names and relations among these individuals. What caused the family’s sudden ascendancy?

3. With the false statements by Waters about the pedigree dispensed with – not willy-nilly, but based on a careful assessment of each, then a fair review of the contemporary records we present in our book leads to the inevitable conclusion that Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, was the wife of John Weston of Lichfield, and the mother of Justice Weston, Chancellor Weston, and their siblings.

Having reached this conclusion, several questions come to mind. Why did Waters falsely claim that Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers? Was it to dispense with the obvious difficulty for his false assertion regarding their mother? Did he realize that if Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, he would have difficulty asserting that their mother was not Cecily Neville? Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.

Shawn

Shawn Potter

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Dec 11, 2022, 2:38:23 PM12/11/22

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On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 6:36:25 AM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> According to ODNB John Weston's son and heir Robert was born in or
> before 1522 - how is it established that the marriage of his parents had
> taken place 15 years before 1526? Do this mean it was contracted ca
> 1511, or consummated by around then? If it was perhaps not consummated
> until around 1521, then how is it proven that Cecily could not have been
> a maternal half-sister of Ralph Nevill?

Hi Peter

Thank you for your good question. We provide contemporary evidence that Edmund Weston, Archdeacon of Lewes; Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas; Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland; James Weston of Lichfield; and Christopher Weston, Burgess of Tamworth, were brothers -- just as presented in the Weston pedigree. Edmund completed a B.C.L. at Oxford on 19 Nov 1532, Richard completed a B.C.L. at Oxford on 17 Feb 1532/3, and Robert completed a B.C.L at Oxford on 17 Feb 1538. These records, and other life events which we discuss in our book, suggest that Edmund was born say about 1511, Richard was born say about 1513, and Robert was born say about 1515 (or perhaps a small number of years later). This information, and more, can be found in the genealogical summary of our book. We believe all the evidence suggests Cecily Neville married John Weston of Lichfield in about 1510. Again based on multiple life events, we estimate Cecily Neville's birth year as about 1493, when her father, Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, was married to Edith Sandys.

Shawn

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Shawn Potter

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Dec 12, 2022, 10:48:34 AM12/12/22

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On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 2:09:14 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> Once again, quoting Rabbit's answer to Winnie the Pooh, mmm, maybe! 😊 I love that Pooh Bear.

Group,

In 1878, Waters wrote in a footnote: “The doubts expressed in the text respecting Segar’s statement, that John Weston of Lichfield was the father of Richard Weston the Judge, apply with still greater force to the statement that his mother was Lady Cecily Nevill, the sister of Ralph Earl of Westmoreland. Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or will of the Nevills, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a deed, abstracted by Segar, ‘Sciant omnes &c. quod ego Johannes Weston de Rugeley Senior, gen. dedi &c. ad usum Johis. Weston junioris filii mei et Cecilie uxoris ejus, sororis Radi Com. Westmoreland, &c. Dat. Lichfield 15 Jul, 18 Hen. VIII.’ (15) But even if this deed be genuine, it is in the absence of all other authorities a very unsatisfactory proof of Cecily’s parentage.” See Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1:110.

In our book (Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/), we demonstrate, by examining and illustrating Weston pedigree supporting documents as well as independent records, that Waters was in error with regard to his above remarks, as well as other statements, about the Weston pedigree.

On pages 16-19 of our book, we demonstrate that three fundamental statements by Waters about the Weston pedigree were erroneous.

On pages 31-62 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that Justice Weston was not a brother of Chancellor Weston was erroneous – they were brothers.

On pages 64-114 of our book, we demonstrate that the statement by Waters that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was not Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, was erroneous – she was their mother.

On pages 113-114 of our book, we summarize our discoveries about Cecily Neville, as presented on pages 64-114 of our book, as follows.

“Our examination of Weston pedigree documents and independent records relating to the identity of the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston led to eight discoveries.

1. The immediate descendants of John Weston of Lichfield soared to the heights of society in a manner consistent with the influence of a recent ancestor from the aristocracy.

2. Neighbors, friends, and the public at large accepted, and did not object to, the Weston pedigree proclamation that the wife of John Weston of Lichfield was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

3. John Weston of Lichfield and his descendants held the lease of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist Manor from the guardian of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, or from the guardian’s son and brother-in-law of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

4. Sons of John Weston of Lichfield owned property that previously had been inherited by members of the family of Isabel Booth, mother of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville.

5. The tomb of a son, grandson, and great-granddaughter of John Weston of Lichfield displayed Neville arms impaling Weston arms — marital arms of a Weston male and his Neville wife.

6. John Weston of Rugeley deeded land to “John Weston, Junior, my son, and Cecily, his wife, sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland.”

7. Simon Weston, Knt., of Lichfield, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

8. Nicholas Bacon of Gillingham, son-in-law of James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer, son of James Weston of Lichfield, and grandson of John Weston of Lichfield, wrote that his wife’s great-grandmother was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

We found some of these discoveries to be suggestive, and others to be persuasive; however, as we considered this whole body of evidence, the effect on our thinking was decisive. Every detail points to a single conclusion. The mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.”

Those who wish to review our presentation, discussion, and illustration of documents that led to discoveries 1-8 above, should see pages 64-114 of our book.

Shawn

ache...@gmail.com

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Dec 12, 2022, 8:26:14 PM12/12/22

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A well researched, presented, and sourced book that was certainly worth the small amount of money I spent to resolve the issue in my own mind. Thanks to both you and your wife for all of your efforts Shawn. Doubtless the hours of time spent in dialogue/debate here are more costly at even a reasonable hourly rate than that which I spent on your worthy tome.

Shawn Potter

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Dec 13, 2022, 8:43:56 AM12/13/22

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On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 8:26:14 PM UTC-5, ache...@gmail.com wrote:
> A well researched, presented, and sourced book that was certainly worth the small amount of money I spent to resolve the issue in my own mind. Thanks to both you and your wife for all of your efforts Shawn. Doubtless the hours of time spent in dialogue/debate here are more costly at even a reasonable hourly rate than that which I spent on your worthy tome.

Thank you for your kind words. Lois and I are glad that our work was helpful to you in your research; and we appreciate your encouragement. Shawn

Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57

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Dec 13, 2022, 10:34:46 AM12/13/22

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Shawn, Thank you to you and Lois for all your work. I'm relatively new here and have been following this thread with great interest. Am just starting to explore medieval genealogy, and have purchased your book. This reading will significantly enhance my understanding of gathering and evaluating evidence and making a case, and I'm looking forward to learning more about the Westons and the families of the earls of Westmorland. Congratulations! Jinny

Will Johnson

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Dec 13, 2022, 2:56:10 PM12/13/22

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Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.

One, as has been beaten many times, is that this Cecily, and even her descendants, are not mentioned in any of the wills of this family to which she is said to belong.

Even more so, as, during the time the 4th Earl remained childless, she and her supposed sister, would have been co-heiresses to the immense fortune of the Westmoreland lands. Immense. Not slight. Enormous.

That she might be married off to some nobody, is not credible.

ps bumppo

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Dec 13, 2022, 3:56:22 PM12/13/22

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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:01:07 PM UTC-5, ps bumppo wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 3:24:50 PM UTC-5, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> > > I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms....
> >
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > Thank you again for your kind words and your good questions and comments. My wife and I are grateful to you.
> >
> > To once more summarize, as you mentioned, your source, on page 508, notes: “The earliest armorial bearings of the Westons of Weston-under-Lyzard was an eagle displayed, and seals prove that this eagle was frequently regardant.” And, as I mentioned in my earlier note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. These seals, with their arms, illustrate that the Weston families of Rugeley and Lichfield were entitled to, and did, display the arms argent an eagle displayed sable from the time of Sir Hamo de Weston, generation after generation, to the time of the publication of the Weston pedigree. This was not a recent development connected with the publication of the Weston pedigree.
> >
> > In light of this, one wonders how Waters could have written: “[Justice Weston] bore Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with a martlet for difference…. They are wholly different from the arms of the Westons of Rugeley, which were Or, an eagle displayed regardant sable; but it is significant that when the pedigree of 1632 was compiled, Lord Weston assumed the coat of the eagle, and in the same year Segar granted both coats to Richard Weston of Rugeley and his cousins at Lichfield.” See Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1:95. Waters tried to cite heraldic evidence in support of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication. Yet an examination of the records reveals that his assertion is without merit.
> >
> > For those who want to know more about the Weston pedigree controversy, we address the assertion of fabrication by Waters – and examine Weston pedigree documentation as well as independent contemporary records – in our book Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
> >
> > By the way, final resolution of this controversy should be of special interest to the estimated five million Americans who trace their ancestries to Weston family immigrants Jeremy Clarke and Frances Latham of Newport, Rhode Island; Elizabeth Cooke and Rev. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts; and Stephen Terry and Jane Hardey of Dorchester, Massachusetts.
> >
> > Shawn
> Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia Neville-John Weston connection. As it is my same great grandmother who is my James Cudworth connection (for those familiar with that morass of, seemingly never to be rectified, questions) who is also descended from William Walton, I feel closer to my third proven Royal lineage from here in Plymouth County (Edmund Hawes and Edward Raynsford are my first two). I won't tell you how many Mayflower lines I have proven:-), but in my retirement I have moved on to Royal/Charlemagne lines. Proving 20-30 generations is so much more difficult that my typically 10-12 from The Mayflower. I also have a strong George Morton heritage so am following with interest the Morton of Bawtry line on this great board, also.
>
> Great fun, Thanks again Shawn, and to all who are making such great observations and citing of sources.
>
> Paul Bumpus

Yes, Shawn, Thank You. I am on the Walton line;

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
(descendant of Henry III, King of England)
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
(descendant of Edward I, King of England)
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (descendant
of Edward III, King of England)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville (descendant
of Edward I, King of England)

6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys

8. Cecilia Neville = John Weston of Weeford

9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield

10. Isabel Ball = John White of Stanton
11. Martha White = Rev. William Cooke
12. Elizabeth Cooke = Rev. William Walton 13. Elizabeth Walton = Lot Conant
14. Martha Conant = Luke Perkins
15. Luke Perkins = Ruth Cushman (Allerton – Howland descendant)
16. Ignatious Perkins = Keziah Davis (James Cudworth descendant)
17. Ruth Perkins = Jesse Pierce
18. David Pierce = Desire Nye
19. Mary Ann Pierce = David Harlow
20. Hannah Pierce Harlow = Reuben Bumpus

Some may note my 16, Ignatious Perkins = Keziah Davis is my much debated James Cudworth line, so I am following with interest this new, perhaps better, connection to Royalty.

Thanks Again for your work,
Paul S. Bumpus

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Dec 13, 2022, 5:35:27 PM12/13/22

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One instance of calling her Lord Nevill's daughter does not negate
repeated instances of calling her instead the earl of Westmorland's
sister. Why could not Herald Lily and Garter Segar be misled - or bribed
- as other officers of arms have been?

Shawn Potter

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Dec 13, 2022, 5:39:21 PM12/13/22

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On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 3:56:22 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Again for your work,

Hi Paul,

It looks like we are cousins through Elizabeth Walton and her husband Lot Conant. I am glad to make your acquaintance. Thank you again for your kind words about our work. We wish you great success in your continued genealogy research.

Shawn

Paulo Ricardo Canedo

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Dec 13, 2022, 5:40:04 PM12/13/22

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Regarding the issue of whether a sister of the Earl of Westmorland would have married a member of the local gentry, as

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston#Other_Objections_Raised notes, Edith Sandys, supposed mother of Cecilia Neville, was from a local gentry family and her mother in law Isabel Booth was barely above her. What do you think of that, Will? Admittedly, AFAIK, men were more likely than women to marry people from lower status than then

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Dec 13, 2022, 9:27:03 PM12/13/22

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The case you have presented in this forum would be far more persuasive
if you had Nevills describing Westons as their relatives. Extraordinary
marriages no doubt did occur in the early 16th century, but so did
extraordinary impostures by families on the make. The circumstantial
grounds for doubt cannot be dismissed just for being 500 years old,
especially given that the documentation as presented here is short of
absolutely satisfactory.

Shawn Potter

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Dec 13, 2022, 9:55:01 PM12/13/22

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On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 9:27:03 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> The case you have presented in this forum would be far more persuasive if you had Nevills describing Westons as their relatives.

Hi Peter,

I am not trying to present my case on this forum. See my initial post. I am encouraging readers to examine the evidence that my wife and I present in our book. My responses to you and others here are intended to be a courtesy to those who sincerely seek to understand our work.

We follow the evidence where it leads rather than trying to imagine how this or that bit of evidence, if it had survived, would have effected our conclusions. The evidence we found and present is compelling.

Shawn

Shawn Potter

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Dec 13, 2022, 10:01:03 PM12/13/22

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On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 9:55:01 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> We follow the evidence where it leads rather than trying to imagine how this or that bit of evidence, if it had survived, would have effected our conclusions. The evidence we found and present is compelling.

Group,

Several people have recently posted something to the effect that the sister of an earl would not marry a nobody. Those who make this argument are assuming that John Weston of Lichfield was a nobody. Records from this period are so scarce that this kind of speculation is risky. Sir Simon wrote “… my Grandfather Iohn Weston, who whilest he liued in England …” What was John Weston of Lichfield doing abroad? Where was he? Who was he with? Was he engaged in military or diplomatic service, or was he studying abroad? We do not know. The record of his activities overseas, to my knowledge, have not been found. His father-in-law’s cousin, Charles Booth, Bishop of Hereford, graduated from the University of Bologna with a degree in civil law in 1493; and someone named James Weston graduated from the same institution with a degree in canon law in 1494. Was John Weston of Lichfield in Bologna? I have no reason to think so; but I ask the question to show that this kind of speculation is endless.

I do not accept the assertion that John Weston of Lichfield was a nobody, because there is no evidence for the statement. According to the records we present in our book, he was enough of a somebody to marry the sister of an earl. And his wife certainly was a somebody. After all, their descendants through three sons included seven earls, nine knights, a head of England’s treasury, a justice of England’s supreme court for matters of equity, a justice of England’s supreme court for matters of common law, two heads of Ireland’s treasury, a head of Ireland’s judiciary, and a head of Ireland’s legislative affairs.

Rather than engaging in endless speculation, why not examine the evidence we present in our book? I think you will find the case to be compelling.

Shawn

Shawn Potter

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Dec 13, 2022, 10:25:16 PM12/13/22

to

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 10:01:03 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> Rather than engaging in endless speculation, why not examine the evidence we present in our book? I think you will find the case to be compelling.

Group,

My wife and I appreciate all those who posed sincere questions about, and shared their informed impressions of, our work Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

As I mentioned in my initial post on this thread, we would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of our book.

Best always,
Shawn Potter

Peter Stewart

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Dec 13, 2022, 10:56:32 PM12/13/22

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Well, the evidence you have presented in this forum is not compelling.

If you are not trying to present your case here, I don't understand why
you have posted so much about it. You can characterise your work and
advertise your book for sale as you wish, but you can't compel agreement
in this forum just by expecting it to result from this.

Will Johnson

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Dec 14, 2022, 11:48:10 AM12/14/22

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On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:19:28 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:56:10 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Reviewing again the older thread on this same subject, a few points seem damning.
> Hi Will,
>
> As I have noted before, many people have said a lot about the Weston pedigree over the years without ever bothering to examine the original documents. In the process, they often repeat unfounded assertions by Waters, and thereby perpetuate his mistakes. We address this false assertion on page 18 of our book.
>
> “… it is regrettable that Waters failed to identify the Neville wills that he said do not mention Cecily. The authors engaged archivists at The National Archives in London, Durham University in Durham, and the University of York in York, to search for wills of (1) Ralph Neville, Lord Neville; (2) Edith Sandys, wife firstly of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and secondly of Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (3) Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy; (4) Elizabeth, daughter of Edith Sandys and Thomas Darcy, Knt., Lord Darcy, and wife of Marmaduke Constable, Knt.; (5) Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland; and (6) Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. The archivists reported that they found no wills for any of these individuals.”
>
> So I would ask what wills the people who make this argument are referring to. And why does the number of times such a red herring has been repeated matter?
>
> We continue on the same page of our book:
>

> “The authors further note that even if Waters identified a Neville will that did not mention Cecily, his argument from silence would be unconvincing, because the rule of primogeniture rather than bequest by will determined the inheritance of real property before 1540, when Parliament enacted the Act of Wills, Wards, and Primer Seisins, Whereby a Man May Devise Two Parts of His Land.12 Therefore, it would not be surprising to find a will during this time frame that did not mention a child that was not a principal heir.”
>

Wills are not used for the purpose of devising land generally, in this period, as you've stated.
No one has ever said that there should be a will devising land to Cecily.
Just that she is not mentioned.

However wills can contain dozens of bequests and instructions that have nothing to do with land.
So this paragraph is a bit misapplied in this case.

By the way, did you manage to review the IPMs at all for this family?