New Walton Descent from Edward III

[Shawn]

Can anyone provide additonal evidence for the connections between
generations 7-8 and 8-9 below? The connection between generations 7-8
is supported by a contemporary deed that identifies John Weston’s wife
as a sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland (mentioned by
others on this site). The connection between generations 6-9 is
indicated by the inheritence of the prebend of Sawley by Alice
Weston’s brothers (by a route that is unknown to me) from Isabel
Booth’s brothers. Beyond the interesting lineage itself, note the new
primary evidence that Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and
Richard Weston, Justice of Common Pleas, were indeed brothers.

Shawn H. Potter

Lineage

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
(descendant of Henry III, King of England)
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
(descendant of Edward I, King of England)
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (descendant
of Edward III, King of England)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville (descendant
of Edward I, King of England)
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecilia Neville = John Weston of Weeford
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
10. Isabel Ball = John White of Stanton
11. Martha White = Rev. William Cooke
12. Elizabeth Cooke = Rev. William Walton

Sources for Generational Connections

Generations 1-2. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
2004), 26-28. “Children of Edward III of England, by Philippe of
Hainault: … vi. John of Gaunt, K.G., Duke of Aquitaine and Lancaster,
Earl of Derby, Lincoln, and Leicester …”

Generations 2-3. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
2004), 429. “Children of John of Gaunt, K.G., by Blanche of
Lancaster: … iii. Elizabeth Lancaster …”

Generations 3-4. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
2004), 299-301. “Children of John Holand, K.G., by Elizabeth
Lancaster: … i. John Holand, Knt., K.G.”

Generations 4-5. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
2004), 299-301. “Children of John Holand, Knt., K.G., by Anne
Stafford: … ii. Anne Holand …”

Generations 5-6. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
2004), 544. “They [John Neville, Knt., and Anne Holand] had one son,
Ralph, K.B. [3rd Earl of Westmorland].”

Generations 6-7. Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in
Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.,
2004), 545. “They [Ralph Neville, K.B., 3rd Earl of Westmorland, and
Isabel Booth] had one son, Ralph [Lord Neville] …”

Generations 7-8. Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs
of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley, Their Ancestors and
Descendants (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1:110. Waters quotes Sir
William Segar, King of Arms, citing a 1526 deed as follows: “Sciant
omnes &c. quod ego Johannes Weston de Rugeley Senior, gen. dedi &c. ad
usum Johis. Weston junioris filii mei et Cecilie uxoris ejus, sororis
Radi Com. Westmoreland, &c. Dat Lichfield 15 July, 18 Hen. VIII. (15
[Add. MSS. 18667, in Brit. Mus.])” In part, this deed says Cecilia,
wife of John Weston of Lichfield, was a sister of Ralph, [4th] Earl of
Westmorland. See also History of Parliament Trust, The House of
Commons (House of Parliament Trust, 1558), 605. “Robert Weston, b.c.
1515, 4th s. of John Weston of Weeford by Cecily, da. of Ralph Neville
and sis. of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland; bro. of James, m. Margery,
da. of Humphrey Lowe of Lichfield.”

Generation 8-9. Two brothers of Alice Weston, Robert Weston, Lord
Chancellor of Ireland, and James Weston of Lichfield, possessed the
prebend of Sawley. The prebend of Sawley descended to Robert and
James Weston (by a route that is unknown to us) from Charles Booth,
Bishop of Hereford (possessed the prebend of Sawley from 1495 to 1516)
and John Booth (possessed the prebend of Sawley from 1459 to 1495),
sons of Roger Booth, Esq. of Aldersey, Mollington, and Sawley, and
brothers of Isabel Booth, wife of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville. The
possession of the prebend of Sawley by Robert and James Weston tends
to support statements by numerous sources, such as History of
Parliament Trust, The House of Commons (House of Parliament Trust,
1558), 605, “Robert Weston, b.c. 1515, 4th s. of John Weston of
Weeford by Cecily, da. of Ralph Neville and sis. of Ralph, 4th Earl of
Westmorland; bro. of James, m. Margery, da. of Humphrey Lowe of
Lichfield.”
1. Isabel Booth, mother of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, was a daughter
of Roger Booth , Esq. of Aldersey, Mollington, and Sawley. See
Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 2004), 545.
“... Isabel Booth, daugher of Roger Booth , Esq. of Aldersey and
Mollington ...” See also Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry: A
Study in Colonial and Medieval Families (Genealogical Publishing Co.,
Inc., 2004), 228. “Anne Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, K.B., 3rd
Earl of Westmorland, Lord Neville (descendant of King Edward III), by
Isabel, daughter of Roger Booth, of Sawley, Derbyshire [see Neville 13
for her ancestry].” See also Arthur Collins, The Peerage of England
(London, 1756), 3:130. “Roger Booth, fifth fon, married Catherine,
daughter and heir to Ralph Hatton, of Mollington, near Chefter, Efq;
and had iffue Robert Booth of Sawley, in com. Derb. Efq; and a
daughter named Ifabel, the wife of Ralph Nevil, the third Earl of
Weftmoreland, by whom he had iffue Anne, wife to William Lord
Coniers. The faid Roger, and his fon Robert, are both buried in
Sawley church.” See also E. Kimber and R. Johnson, The Baronetage of
England (London, 1771), 1:20-21. “This John Booth, of Barton,
married, firft, Joan, daughter of Sir Henry Trafford, of Trafford, in
Lancafhire, Knt. (a family of the greateft antiquity, having been
feated there before the time when William the Conqueror entered
England, and have continued there in a lineal defcent to this prefent
time,) by whom he had iffue feven fons, and five daughters ... 5.
Roger, who died Auguft 18, 1467, and was buried at Sallow, or Sawley,
aforefaid. His wife was Catharine, daughter and heir of Ralph Hatton,
of Mollington, near Chefter, Efq; She died in 1466, and was buried
with her hufband, leaving iffue, ... one daughter, Ifabel, married to
Ralph Nevil, third Earl of Weftmorland, and buried at Branfpath.”
2. “Deeds: C.3101 - C.3200,” A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient
Deeds: Volume 3 (1900), pp. 329-340. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64348&strquery="prebend
of sallowe&quot. “Certificate by Thomas Heywod the dean, and the
chapter, of Lichfield cathedral, that they have admitted John Bothe,
clerk, son of Roger Bothe, esquire, as treasurer, canon, and
prebendary of the prebend of Sallowe in their cathedral, vacant by the
resignation of master Vincent Clement, according to the letters patent
of masters Roger Walle, archdeacon of Coventry, and John Redhill,
canon of Salisbury and Lichfield, keepers of the spiritualities of the
bishopric of Coventry and Lichfield, now vacant, to them directed and
herein recited. The chapter House, Lichfield, 29 July, A.D. 1459.”
3. “Parishes: Sandiacre - Swarkston,” Magna Britannia: volume 5:
Derbyshire (1817), pp. 246-275. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50735&strquery=prebend
sallowe lichfield. “SAWLEY, anciently called Salle, or Sallowe, in
the hundred of Morleston and Litchurch, and in the deanery of Derby,
lies on the north side of the Trent, about nine miles from Derby. The
parish comprises the parochial chapelry of Risley, which, with
Breaston as a chapel of ease, is held as a separate benefice; and the
parochial chapel of Little-Wilne, and the chapel of ease of Long-
Eaton, which are held with Sawley. The manor of Sawley belonged to
the Bishop of Chester when the Survey of Domesday was taken. His
successors, the Bishops of Lichfield and Coventry (fn. 7) , have ever
since continued to possess it. The manor has been long held on lease
under the Bishop, by the Stanhope family. The Earl of Harrington is
the present lessee of the manor of Sawley, including Little-Wilne,
Long-Eaton, Wilstrop (fn. 8), and Draycot. Bishop Longespee, in 1258,
had a charter for a market on Tuesdays at Sawley, and a fair for three
days at Michaelmas. (fn. 9) The market, which had been long
discontinued, was revived soon after the year 1760, but not being much
frequented was discontinued again before 1770: the markethouse, a
small octangular building, still remains. The fair, which was held on
the 12th of November O. S., was some years ago noted for the sale of
mares and foals: the fair also has been discontinued. In the parish
church are two ancient monuments of ecclesiastics, without
inscriptions; that of Roger Bothe, Esq., who died in 1467, and
Catherine his wife, father and mother of Laurence Bothe, Bishop of
Durham, (afterwards Archbishop of York (fn. 10) ,) and of John Bothe,
Bishop of Exeter; and that of Robert Bothe, son of Roger (described as
brother of John Bothe, Archdeacon of Durham, afterwards Bishop of
Exeter (fn. 11), and Ralph Bothe, Archdeacon of York,) which Robert
died in 1478. In the south aisle is an altar-tomb, in memory of
Richard Shylton, merchant of the staple of Calais, 1510, and a
memorial of Edmund Edmonson, Gent., 1582, and his wife Constance. The
rectory of Sawley has been from an early period the corps of a prebend
in the church of Lichfield. Cardinal Gauselin, prebendary of Sawley,
claimed, in 1330, assize of bread, &c., in the rectorial manor. These
privileges were taken away because he had neglected to keep a pillory
and tumbrell, but were restored on payment of a fine. (fn. 12) The
Leech's were many years lessees of the prebendal manor: the present
lessee is the Rev. Spencer Madan, D.D. The prebendary appoints the
perpetual curate. The Bishop is patron of the prebend. There was a
chantry in this church, founded by Ralph de Chaddesden, who was
Treasurer of Lichfield in 1259. The endowment was valued at 5l. per
annum in 1547.”
4. Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, was a brother of James
Weston of Lichfield. See the Will of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor
of Ireland, Dublin, Ireland, dated 2 May 1573, proved 18 Jul 1573,
National Archives, UK. “And namelie my lease of the parsonage of
Isleworth and Twickenham with the advowson and dignitie treasorshipped
and prebend of Salowe within the Cathedrall church of Litchfield
remayning in the hande of my brother James Weston.” See also the Will
of James Weston, Lichfield, Staffordshire, England, dated 2 May 1589,
proved 24 May 1589, National Archives, UK. “... my quare impedit
against John Ludsome for the prebend of Sallowe be effectually
presented.”
5. Alice Weston was a sister of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
Ireland. See the Will of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
Dublin, Ireland, dated 2 May 1573, proved 18 Jul 1573, National
Archives, UK. “Item I give and bequeth to my Sister Ball my Lease of
a tenement in Brentwood in the holdings of Agnes White with the
seveall assignments to it belonging. I give also to my said Sister my
Lease of Helsmore … Item I give and bequeth to my cozen [nephew] John
Ball all my books.” John Ball also witnessed the will.
6. Alice Weston also was a sister of Richard Weston, Justice of the
Common Pleas. See the Will of Richard Weston, Justice of the Common
Pleas, Roxwell, County Essex, dated 4 Jul 1572, proved 29 Jul 1572,
National Archives, UK. “Together with the inheritances of the
Patronage of the parrishe church of Bucknell in the countye of Oxforde
I leave to dissend unto my aforesaide sonne and heire apparente
Jerrome Westone.” See also James Charles Blomfield, History of
Ardley, Bucknell, Caversfield, and Stoke Lyne (London: Elliot Stock,
1894), 8:54-56. The advowson of Bucknell passed from Richard Weston,
[Justice of the Common Pleas] to [his son, Sir] Jerome Weston, to [his
aunt] Alice [Weston] Ball, widow, to her son Robert Ball, to [his
nephew] Josias White [son of Isabel Ball and John White of Stanton].
7. Therefore, Alice Weston was a daughter of John Weston of Weeford
and Cecilia Neville.

Generations 9-10. The Publications of The Harleian Society, vol.
LXIV, for the year MDCCCXIII, Pedigrees from the Visitation of
Hampshire Made by Thomas Benolt, Clarenceaulx, ao 1530, Enlarged with
the Visitation of the Same County Made by Robert Cooke, Clarenceulx
anno 1575 (London: 1913), 64:229. White lineage, citing MS. Harl.
1544, fo. 197, 198, shows “John White of Stanton St John in ye County
of Oxford” married to “Isabell the da. of John Bawle of Litchfield in
the County of ...,” parents of “John White of Dorcet in the County of
Dorcet” who married “Anne the da. of John Burges of Peterborough,”
“Martha” who married “Will. Cooke of Straton,” and “Mary” who married
“John Tery of Stokton.” See also James Charles Blomfield, History of
Ardley, Bucknell, Caversfield, and Stoke Lyne (London: Elliot Stock,
1894), 8:54. “Indenture made 7 Sept. 8 James 1st [1611] between
Robert Ball of Estington co. Gloster of the one part and George Ryves
of the univy of Oxford D.D. and Josyas White and Robert Pinke of the
university of Oxford aforesaid Maisters of arts of the other part
Witnesseth that the said Robert has granted to those of the 2nd part
the right of patronage of the rectory of Buknell als Buckenhull. To
hold the same for ever, reserving the right of next presentation
provided the same should fall during the lifetime of the said Robert,
of one of the Scholars of New Coll., and the said parties to the 2nd
part to always nominate a Scholar of New Coll., preference to be made
of one of the kindred of the said Geo. Ball. Indenture made 11 Feby.
12 James 1st [1615] Between Josyas White of Hornchurch co. Essex B.D.,
and Robert Pinke of the Univ. of Oxon., B.M., of the one part and the
warden and scholars of New Coll. of the other being an absolute grant
of the advowson of Bucknell with right of patronage, etc. Subject to
the covenant of putting in one of their fellows of the same blood or
kindred of Robert Ball late of Estington co. Gloster (if such a one be
fellow). Witness, etc.”

Generations 10-11. Harold F. Porter, Jr., “Mr. William Cooke, Father-
in-Law of Mr. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts” in The New
England Historic Genealogical Register, (Oct1988), 361, 367. William
Cooke, clerk [clergyman], and Martha White, daughter of John White of
Stanton St. John, county Oxford, gentleman, were married 27 April,
1597. “1597: Guilielmus Cooke cler. et Martha White filia Joh’is White
de Stanton St. Joh’is i com. Oxon. gen. solemn. m’ronio coniucti sunt
27 April.” (Stockton, Wiltshire, England, Marriages). William Cooke
wrote his will on February 7, 1614/5. It was proved in the
Prerogative Court of Canterbury on June 26, 1615. “I ... Devise and
bequeath unto my well-beloved wife Martha Cooke ... those ... lands I
lately purchased of Sir Robert Chichester, knight, being that
howse ... wherein I nowe ... Dwell, which performing all the severall
legacies and bequests aforesaid shee maye either sell or keepe at her
owne pleasure ... to my wife that hundred pounds which remayneth in
the hands of Mr. John White, my father-in-law, and was promised me in
marriage with her, as parte of her marriage porcion … My brother-in-
law Mr. John White, preacher of Gods word at Dorchester.” See also
Will of John White of Staunton, signed September 30, 1616 and proved
at Oxford on September 26, 1618 (Oxford Wills, series ii, vol. iv, p.
224) Extract: “… to my daughter Martha Cooke 20 pounds.”

Generations 11-12. Harold F. Porter, Jr., “Mr. William Cooke, Father-
in-Law of Mr. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts” in The New
England Historic Genealogical Register, (Oct1988), 368. “Children of
William Cooke and Martha White, probably all born at Crediton, Devon;
surname Cooke: … ii. Elizabeth, b. probably ca. 1602; recorded as
‘Elizabeth Cake’ when she m. at Holy Trinity, Dorchester, Dorset, 10
April 1627, William Walton.”

[Wjhonson]

Please provide a better source citation for this item below

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[Shawn]

Other properties mentioned in the wills of Robert Weston and James
Weston may provide additional clues to their ancestries if it can be
shown that one or more were inherited from the their Neville, Sandys,
or Booth ancestors. Spellings in the following lists are from the
images of their original wills found at the UK National Archives site
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SEARCH/quick_search.aspx.

Rober Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland
Prebend of Salowe (see my previous note)
Parsonage of Isleworth and Twickenham
Tenament of Brentwood
Tenament of Helsmore
Parsonage of Stone
Prebend of Wyford
Mansion house of St. Johns
House of Freeford
Prebend let to one Bulbington

James Weston of Lichfield
Prebend of Sallowe (see my previous note)
Rent from Burrowfordes and Broadhayes in or near the Lordship of King
Bromley
Rent from Handsacre and Armitage
Land at Newlandes—“ my Ancestors have longe byne tenante to the
Myttins of the landes I houlde at Newlandes”

[Wjhonson]

The Will of James Weston
Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)

This has been extracted in
http://books.google.com/books?id=oGMBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA93
"Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley, their Ancestors and Descendants", by Robert E. C. Waters, esq
Volume 1, page 93-94 wj

[Shawn]

PROB 11/55: Will of Robert Weston, Chancellor of Ireland
PROB 11/73: Will of James Weston of Lichfield, Staffordshire
PROB 11/54: Will of Richard Westone, Queen's Justice of Common Pleas
of Westminster, Middlesex

[John]

[snip]

> 6.  Alice Weston also was a sister of Richard Weston, Justice of the
> Common Pleas.  See the Will of Richard Weston, Justice of the Common
> Pleas, Roxwell, County Essex, dated 4 Jul 1572, proved 29 Jul 1572,
> National Archives, UK.  “Together with the inheritances of the
> Patronage of the parrishe church of Bucknell in the countye of Oxforde
> I leave to dissend unto my aforesaide sonne and heire apparente
> Jerrome Westone.”  See also James Charles Blomfield, History of
> Ardley, Bucknell, Caversfield, and Stoke Lyne (London: Elliot Stock,
> 1894), 8:54-56.  The advowson of Bucknell passed from Richard Weston,
> [Justice of the Common Pleas] to [his son, Sir] Jerome Weston, to [his
> aunt] Alice [Weston] Ball, widow, to her son Robert Ball, to [his
> nephew] Josias White [son of Isabel Ball and John White of Stanton].
> 7.  Therefore, Alice Weston was a daughter of John Weston of Weeford
> and Cecilia Neville.
>

The statement that Alice Weston Ball was also a sister of Sir Richard
Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, contradicts the information about
the parentage of Sir Richard in his bios in both ODNB and HOP, where
he is indicated to be of a different Weston family - with a much less
illustrious descent. The HOP bio (as well as other sources) says that
Sir Richard's grandson Richard, Earl of Portland, "inspired the
fabrication of a pedigree tracing his grandfather’s descent from the
Staffordshire family of Weston and a Neville of Westmorland". It also
says that "[Sir Richard] Weston’s real ancestry is uncertain. He was
probably a grandson of William Weston, mercer of London, who died in
1515 leaving four sons, of whom one, Richard, settled in Colchester,
where he died in 1541 or 1542, styling himself gentleman and leaving
three sons under age, the youngest named Richard."

Perhaps there was some reason other than kinship as to why the
advowson of Bucknell mentioned above apparently passed from one Weston
family to the other, but there does not seem to be a connection
between the two families - despite pedigrees saying otherwise.

[Shawn]

Here are properties (as best as I can make them out) listed in the
will of Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas:

Manor of Netiswell
Manors of Skrynes and Sainte Lawrence Hall in County Essex
Manor of Longe Barrows and Ffrayes
Rents of lands in Nettiswell, Moch Pardon, Little Pardon, Harlow, and
Latton in County Essex
Moity of the manor of Weste Tylberye with tenements called Stylmans in
Wickford, County Essex
Tenements in West Tylberye, Easte Tilberye, Chatwell, Grait Thwrock,
Little Thwrock, Wickforde, Penwell, __, Southe Haningfield in County
Essex
Patronage of the Parish Church of Bucknell in County Oxford
Rents of lands in East and West Tylberye

[Shawn]

In the will of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he gave his
daughter “all my arias hangings in the great chamber of St Pulchers.”
With this in mind, the following is interesting: “Later, Prior John
Weston (1476–91) presented a triptych of Flemish workmanship, of which
two panels still survive.” (Fincham, Order of St. John (2nd edn.),
58) “Religious Houses: House of Knights hospitallers,” A History of
the County of Middlesex: Volume 1: Physique, Archaeology, Domesday,
Ecclesiastical Organization, The Jews, Religious Houses, Education of
Working Classes to 1870, Private Education from Sixteenth Century
(1969), pp. 193-204. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22121.

[lma...@att.net]

On Nov 24, 7:49 am, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Can anyone provide additonal evidence for the connections between
> generations 7-8 and 8-9 below?  The connection between generations 7-8
> is supported by a contemporary deed that identifies John Weston’s wife
> as a sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland (mentioned by
> others on this site).  The connection between generations 6-9 is
> indicated by the inheritence of the prebend of Sawley by Alice
> Weston’s brothers (by a route that is unknown to me) from Isabel
> Booth’s brothers.  Beyond the interesting lineage itself, note the new
> primary evidence that Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and
> Richard Weston, Justice of Common Pleas, were indeed brothers.
>
> Shawn H. Potter

>

> Generations 7-8.  Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs
> of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley, Their Ancestors and
> Descendants (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1:110.  Waters quotes Sir
> William Segar, King of Arms, citing a 1526 deed as follows: “Sciant
> omnes &c. quod ego Johannes Weston de Rugeley Senior, gen. dedi &c. ad
> usum Johis. Weston junioris filii mei et Cecilie uxoris ejus, sororis
> Radi Com. Westmoreland, &c. Dat Lichfield 15 July, 18 Hen. VIII. (15
> [Add. MSS. 18667, in Brit. Mus.])”  In part, this deed says Cecilia,
> wife of John Weston of Lichfield, was a sister of Ralph, [4th] Earl of
> Westmorland.  See also History of Parliament Trust, The House of
> Commons (House of Parliament Trust, 1558), 605. “Robert Weston, b.c.
> 1515, 4th s. of John Weston of Weeford by Cecily, da. of Ralph Neville
> and sis. of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland; bro. of James, m. Margery,
> da. of Humphrey Lowe of Lichfield.”

You might want to go back & look at what Chester Waters, Genealogical
Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester.... actually says regarding
Cecily Neville:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OaxCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA110&dq=note+on++the+parentage+of+richard+weston&hl=en&ei=I6HOTsyEFqiciQK0vIm8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=note%20on%20%20the%20parentage%20of%20richard%20weston&f=false

If there was a valid descent from Edward III, it would have been
presented as such.

Leslie

[Shawn]

Considering the arias hangings mentioned in the will of Robert Weston,
Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and the triptych of Flemish workmanship
presented by John Weston, Prior of England, cited above, it is
interesting that the arms on the tomb of Richard Weston, Justice of
the Common Pleas, are the same, with a difference, as the arms of John
Weston, Prior of England.

The Seals of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, 109. “There are two
seals known of John Weston, Turcopolier and Pillar of England from
1471 to 1476, and Grand Pior of England from 1476 to 1489. The first
of these (O.S.J., 163) is in the Record Office, attached to a deed of
the year 1481. It is oval, 1 inch by 7/8, and bears a shield of his
arms, ‘ermine, on a chief five besants,’ but is badly damaged.”

Miller Christy, W.W. Porteous, E. Bertram Smith, “Some Interesting
Essex Brasses” in Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society
(Colchester: Published by the Society at the Museum in the Castle,
1906), 9:57. Arms on the tomb of Richard Weston, Justice of the
Common Pleas: “Ermine; on a chief (azure) five bezants; a martlet
(gules) charged with a mullet (or) for double difference.”

[Douglas Richardson]

On Nov 24, 10:12 am, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:
< Other properties mentioned in the wills of Robert Weston and James
< Weston may provide additional clues to their ancestries if it can be
< shown that one or more were inherited from the their Neville,
Sandys,
< or Booth ancestors.

The only possibility (and it's very remote) is that Cecily, wife of
John Weston, was illegitimate. If so, she wouldn't inherit anything
from the Nevilles, Sandys, or Booths. Bastards were prevented by law
from inheriting anything.

DR

[John]

There are now three different Weston families involved in this
thread. Sir John Weston, Grand Prior of England for the Order of St
John, was of the Westons of Boston (later of Sutton Place) was of the
family of Weston of Boston (later of Sutton Place). Sir Robert
Weston, Chancellor of Ireland, and his brother Sir James Weston were
of the family of Weston of Lichfield, Staffordshire, which MAY be
distantly related to that of Boston.

There is no known connection between Sir Richard Weston, Justice of
the Common Pleas, and these other Weston families. As mentioned
before, a grandson of the last-mentioned Sir Richard arranged for the
creation of a pedigree to connect his family to the other family (or
families). It's possible, if not likely, that he also appropriated
the coat of arms of the family of Weston of Boston for his use as well.

[myrkrider]

> between the two families - despite pedigrees saying otherwise.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Is it possible that this Richard Weston just inserted himself into
this different Weston family (the one descended from Cecilia Neville)
to make it seem as if he had an illustrious pedigree, but that the
family he tried to connect to, actually existed and just had the
unfortunate circumstance of having a man a few generations making a
fake pedigree for himself. There are documents that link Alice Weston
Ball to Lord Chancellor of Ireland-Robert Weston showing that they are
siblings, but are there any documents connecting this Richard Weston
as a sibling to either of them? If not then he could just be treated
as a separate entity, a pretender trying to connect himself to another
family.

Ken B.

[Shawn]

Reference the skepticism expressed by Robert Edmond Chester Waters and
others regarding statements by Sir William Segar, King of Arms,
concerning the relationship between, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
Ireland, and Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, as well as
their royal ancestries. The lineage certainly is impressive; but, has
anyone seen evidence that the ancestry was invented? Does anyone know
of any reason to believe that Richard Weston, Justice of the Common
Pleas, would participate in such a fraud? Surely justices, like
everyone else, exhibit moral failures (unfortunately for those who are
subject to their decisions); but are there instances of this
particular justice’s dishonesty? If Sir William Segar, King of Arms,
along with Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, commited fraud
with regard to this Weston ancestry, the most persuasive argument
against their statements would be to present the correct linage.

With regard to the important reminder that bastards were prevented by
English law from inheriting, are there not examples of English parents
giving their bastard children gifts in property during this period?
Kings provided generously for their bastard children. Wouldn’t earls
and lords do the same? If Cecily was a bastard daughter of Ralph
Neville, she still would be a descendant of Ralph Neville’s mother,
Isabel Booth. If English law regarding inheritence did not prevent
Ralph Neville from giving his daughter, even if she was a bastard, a
gift in property, then it seems possible that Ralph Neville, or his
near relatives, could have given Cecily property that he, or they, had
inherited from the Booths. On the other hand, how do we know that
Cecily was not a legitimate daughter? Does anyone know if Ralph
Neville left a will? Has anyone examined Ralph Neville’s probate
records for clues of Cecily's existence?

[pj.evans]

Are you so desirous of a royal descent that you'd accept an invented
line?
(I have Jerome Weston on my tree. I don't have the Neville ancestry;
it's a too little iffy, even in <i>Chester of Chicheley</i>.

[John]

On Nov 24, 7:27 pm, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Reference the skepticism expressed by Robert Edmond Chester Waters and
> others regarding statements by Sir William Segar, King of Arms,
> concerning the relationship between, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
> Ireland, and Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, as well as
> their royal ancestries.  The lineage certainly is impressive; but, has
> anyone seen evidence that the ancestry was invented?  Does anyone know
> of any reason to believe that Richard Weston, Justice of the Common
> Pleas, would participate in such a fraud?  Surely justices, like
> everyone else, exhibit moral failures (unfortunately for those who are
> subject to their decisions); but are there instances of this
> particular justice’s dishonesty?  If Sir William Segar, King of Arms,
> along with Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, commited fraud
> with regard to this Weston ancestry, the most persuasive argument
> against their statements would be to present the correct linage.
>

Read the bio of Sir Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, in
either HOP or ODNB. Nobody has said that Sir Richard participated in
such a fraud - only that his descendant (specifically his grandson)
apparently did so. CP refers to the Segar pedigree as "an elaborate,
if untrustworthy genealogy by Segar....in the British Museum".

If you want to pursue the "correct lineage" you could start with
what's provided in HOP or ODNB and the sources they specify.

[Shawn]

John, the qualifiers … “apparently” … “if” … do not inspire
confidence; and, as you know, people regularly discover corrections to
Complete Peerage, and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is
not a primary source. I wonder if you can cite primary sources that
shed light on the correct lineage.

[Shawn]

There is an interesting discussion of the arms of Rev. John Weston,
son of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and the arms of
Simon Weston, son of James Weston of Lichfield by John Gough Nichols,
FSA, in The Herald and Genealogist (London: R.C. Nichols and J.B.
Nichols, 1874), 8:507-509.

[John]

I think it would be more useful for you to attempt to find primary
sources to support the lineage in the Segar pedigree - since that's
the lineage you seem to want to support. That lineage, of course, has
some major red flags associated with it, including criticism by at
least a few recognized authorities together with its apparent
origination as a fabrication (a background which you may want to
investigate further before you rely on the Segar version).

I doubt that full "primary sources" can be found for either version of
Sir Richard Weston's ancestry (or even just his parentage). Given
that lack of sources, we make judgments as best we can based on
secondary sources. In this case I think the Segar pedigree is dubious
enough to be considered an unreliable secondary source for this
lineage. That's my judgment, of course - you're welcome to arrive at
your own conclusions!

[Wjhonson]

I just realized that Richard named his son Hieronymous

-----Original Message-----
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

[Matt Tompkins]

On Nov 25, 3:27 am, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Reference the skepticism expressed by Robert Edmond Chester Waters and
> others regarding statements by Sir William Segar, King of Arms,
> concerning the relationship between, Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
> Ireland, and Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, as well as
> their royal ancestries.  The lineage certainly is impressive; but, has
> anyone seen evidence that the ancestry was invented?  Does anyone know
> of any reason to believe that Richard Weston, Justice of the Common
> Pleas, would participate in such a fraud?  Surely justices, like
> everyone else, exhibit moral failures (unfortunately for those who are
> subject to their decisions); but are there instances of this
> particular justice’s dishonesty?  If Sir William Segar, King of Arms,
> along with Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, commited fraud
> with regard to this Weston ancestry, the most persuasive argument
> against their statements would be to present the correct linage.

As the late, great Anthony Wagner put it (in English Genealogy
(Oxford. 1960), p. 311):

"The making of false pedigrees is an immemorial vice, practised in
antiquity, the Middle Ages, and modern times alike, but the age of
Elizabeth I has a specially bad name for such activities. The rise of
so many new families to wealth and station in a society where the
prestige of ancient blood was great combined with a growing but as yet
ill educated zeal for the study of English antiquities to produce a
market for deplorable concoctions as well as for genuine research."

William Segar's DNB biography says:

"Segar was a conscientious herald and a formidable scholar yet, like
many other Tudor genealogists, he authorized many pedigrees giving
most improbable descents from fabulous ancestors."

Matt Tompkins

[Shawn]

On Nov 25, 3:37 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>  I just realized that Richard named his son Hieronymous

Thank you. What is the genealogical significance, especially in this
context, of Richard Weston naming his son Hieronymus?

Of note, there is an etching (after Anthony van Dyck) of Richard
Weston, 1st Earl of Portland, mislabled as Hieronymus Westonius, at
this site: http://www.sandersofoxford.com/describe?id=25405

By the way, one source, A History of the County of Oxford: Ploughley
Hundred (http://books.google.com/books?id=oPLuAAAAMAAJ&q=%22jeremiah
+weston%22&dq=%22jeremiah+weston
%22&hl=en&ei=743PTu_sDObk0QGP1PA6&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwATgU)
writes his name as Jeremiah. This must be a mistake, because the name
Jeremiah has a different origin than the name Jerome (the Anglicized
form of Hieronymus); and because in Richard Weston’s will, his son’s
name is spelled “Jerrome,” and in Jerome Weston’s own will, his name
is spelled “Jerome.”

[Wjhonson]

I think you would greatly advance our knowledge should you investigate more deeply his first wife Wilburga Catesby and her connections. Sources on the ground for her are slim.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn <shp...@comcast.net>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2011 5:40 am
Subject: Re: New Walton Descent from Edward III

[Shawn]

Does anyone see any clues to the ancestry of Robert, James, and
Richard Weston in their properties?

Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Will of Robert Weston, Lord

Chancellor of Ireland, Dublin, Ireland, dated 2 May 1573, proved 18

Jul 1573, PROB 11/55, National Archives, UK)
- Prebend of Salowe: Sawley descended from two brothers of Isabel
Booth, mother of Ralph Neville.
- Parsonage of Isleworth and Twickenham
- Tenament of Brentwood: Sampson Erdeswick, Thomas Harwood, A Survey
of Staffordshire: Containing the Antiquities of that County
(Westminster: John Nichols and Son, 1820), 204. “John Wells died 1529
seized of … Burntwood … Handsacre …”
- Tenament of Helsmoee
- Parsonage of Stone: Sampson Erdeswick, Thomas Harwood, A Survey of
Staffordshire: Containing the Antiquities of that County (Westminster:
John Nichols and Son, 1820), 34. William Crompton was in possession
of Stone in the early 1600s.
- Prebend of Wyford
- Mansion house of St. Johns
- House of Freeford: Sampson Erdeswick, Thomas Harwood, A Survey of
Staffordshire: Containing the Antiquities of that County (Westminster:
John Nichols and Son, 1820), 230. “There was a lease of William
Andrews, gent. To William Zouche, gent. of the lordship of Freeford,
for 40s. for the term of twenty years, dated 34 Hen. VIII. It had
once belonged to a family who assumed the same name. This estate came
into the hands of the family of Dyott, temp. Eliz. One sixth share
from Swinfen, one sixth from Andrews, one sixth from Jermain, and
three sixths from Harcourt, by inter-marriage with that family. An
award was made by Richard Broughton and James Weston, between John
Dyott and Richard Harcourt, of lands in Freeford, 2 Eliz.”
- Prebend let to one Bulbington

James Weston of Litchfield (Will of James Weston, Lichfield,
Staffordshire, England, dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589, PROB
11/73, National Archives, UK)
- Prebend of Sallowe: Sawley descended from two brothers of Isabel
Booth, mother of Ralph Neville.
- Rent from Brownsfields and Broadhayes in or near the Lordship of
King Bromley: “Townships: Streethay with Fulfen,” A History of the
County of Stafford: Volume 14: Lichfield (1990), pp. 273-282. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42363&amp;strquery=weeford
weston. “BROWNSFIELDS FARM apparently took its name from the Brown
family of Lichfield. In 1440 the estate of John Brown of Lichfield was
divided between his two daughters and coheirs, one of whom, Alice, was
the wife of William Rugeley. (fn. 93) In 1562 Alice's descendants
granted land to Richard Hussey, who in turn sold land called 'Brownes
fields' to Michael Lowe of Timmor in Fisherwick and James Weston of
Lichfield. Weston died in 1589, and his interest passed to his son
Simon; Lowe died in 1593 or 1594, leaving his interest to his son-in-
law Edward Bromley. (fn. 94) Weston and Bromley sold their shares to
Richard Pyott (d. 1620), or his son Richard, of Streethay, (fn. 95)
and by 1632 Brownsfields was let. (fn. 96).
- Rent from Handsacre and Armitage: Sampson Erdeswick, Thomas Harwood,
A Survey of Staffordshire: Containing the Antiquities of that County
(Westminster: John Nichols and Son, 1820), 204. “John Wells, 20 Hen.
VIII. [1529], died seized of … Burntwood … Handsacre …”
- Land at Newlandes—“ my Ancestors have longe byne tenante to the
Myttins of the landes I houlde at Newlandes”: Sampson Erdeswick,
Thomas Harwood, A Survey of Staffordshire: Containing the Antiquities
of that County (Westminster: John Nichols and Son, 1820), 388.
“Houndhill passed, by marriage, temp. Hen. VI. to Robert Hylle. 2 Hen.
VIII. Henry Hill sold it, and lands in Marchington, Newland, Stubby-
lane, &c. to William Smith, of Elford; who two years afterwards, sold
it to Robert Dormer; and he, 6 Hen. VIII. to Humphry Vernon, third son
of sir Henry Vernon, knt. of Haddon, co. Derby; in which family it yet
(1820) remains.”

Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas (Will of Richard Weston,

Justice of the Common Pleas, Roxwell, County Essex, dated 4 Jul 1572,

proved 29 Jul 1572, PROB 11/54, National Archives, UK)
- Manor of Neteswell: “Parishes: Netteswell,” A History of the County
of Essex: Volume 8 (1983), pp. 206-213. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63854&amp;strquery=netteswell.
“Netteswellbury was one of the manors granted at the Dissolution to
the last abbot of Waltham, Robert Fuller, for life. On his death c.
1542 it came into the hands of the king, who in 1544 granted it with
the advowson of the rectory to Richard Heigham of Roydon. (fn. 32)
Richard (d. 1546) was succeeded by his brother William Heigham (d.
1558), and he by his son John. (fn. 33) John Heigham conveyed the
manor and advowson in 1561 to (Sir) Richard Weston, justice of the
Queen's Bench. (fn. 34) Sir Richard was succeeded in 1572 by his son
(Sir) Jerome (d. 1603). Sir Jerome's son Sir Richard, later earl of
Portland, minister to James I and Charles I, sold Netteswell in 1618
to Sir William Martin of Woodford. (fn. 35)”
- Manors of Skrynes and Sainte Lawrence Hall in County Essex: David
Hughson, London; being an Accurate History and Description of the
British Metropolis and its Neighborhood (London: W. Stratford, 1809),
6:261. “Skreens takes its name from a very antient possessor, William
Skreene, of Writtle, and of Clifford’s Inn, who enjoyed this estate in
the year 1409: it afterwards went to William lord Hastings; whose
descendants being attainted of high treason, Henry VIII. granted it to
Richard Sampford, yeoman; who alienated it to Richard Weston, Esq. in
whose family it continued till it was purchased in the year 1635 by
Sir John Bramstone, knt. lord chief justice of the King’s Bench; in
which family it remains.”
- Manor of Longe Barns and Ffrayes: “Beauchamp Roding: Manors,” A
History of the County of Essex: Volume 4: Ongar Hundred (1956), pp.
198-200. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15653&amp;strquery=frayes.
“The Crown retained the manorial rights [of Beauchamp Roding alias
Longbarns]. It undertook to bear the cost of repairs to the houses of
the manor in timber and tile, while Scurlocke was to bear those in
thatching and daubing and was to have fireboot, ploughboot,
harrowboot, and hedgeboot. In 1554 the manor was granted for life to
Mary, widow of Sir John Gate. (fn. 54) She was still alive in 1570,
when she presented to the rectory. Meanwhile in 1558 Longbarns (or
presumably its reversion) was granted by the Crown to (Sir) Richard
Weston of Skreens in Roxwell, then Solicitor General and later a
justice of Common Pleas. (fn. 55) He died in 1572 and was succeeded by
his son (Sir) Jerome (d. 1603). (fn. 56) The manor descended to
Jerome's son Sir Richard (1577-1635) who in 1633 was created Earl of
Portland.” “Beauchamp Roding: Manors,” A History of the County of
Essex: Volume 4: Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 198-200. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15653&amp;strquery=frayes.
“The manor of FRAYES may have derived its name from the family of John
Fray, to whom a tenement in Beauchamp Roding was conveyed in 1408 by
William Sudbury, draper of London, and Cecily his wife, and Peter
Wymundham, also draper of London. (fn. 69) In 1477 Frayes was held by
the lord of the manor of Beauchamp Roding (see above). (fn. 70) It
followed the same descent as that manor until 1611 when Sir Richard
Weston sold it to Thomas Younge. (fn. 71)”
- Rents of lands in Netteswell, Moch Parndon, Little Parndon, Harlow,

and Latton in County Essex

- Moity of the manor of Weste Tylberye with tenements called Stylmans
in Wickford, County Essex
- Tenements in West Tylberye, Easte Tilberye, Chatwell, Grait
Thurrock, Little Thurrock, Wickforde, Penwell, __, Southe Haningfield
in County Essex
- Patronage of the Parish Church of Bucknell in County Oxford:
Bucknell descended through Jerome Weston to Alice Weston Ball, to
Robert Ball, to Josias White.
- Rents of lands in East and West Tylberye

[Shawn]

Reference the cited connection between Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor
of Ireland, and Richard Weston, Justice of Common Pleas--i.e., Alice
Weston, who lived in Lichford, Staffordshire, sister of Robert Weston,
who lived in Dublin Ireland, received the prebend of Bucknell in
County Oxford from Richard Weston's son, Jerome, who lived in Roxwell,
County Essex. What do the arms of Robert Weston and Richard Weston
tell us, if anything, about their relationship?

Miller Christy, W.W. Porteous, E. Bertram Smith, “Some Interesting
Essex Brasses” in Transactions of the Essex Archaeological Society
(Colchester: Published by the Society at the Museum in the Castle,
1906), 9:57. Arms on the tomb of Richard Weston, Justice of the
Common Pleas: “Ermine; on a chief (azure) five bezants; a martlet
(gules) charged with a mullet (or) for double difference.”

John Gough Nichols, FSA, in The Herald and Genealogist (London: R.C.

Nichols and J.B. Nichols, 1874), 8:507-508. “The seal of John Weston,
of Litchfield, temp. Henry VIII, who was the fourth son of John Weston
of Rugeley, co. Stafford, temp. Henry VII., bore, Ermine, on a chief
azure five bezants, a martlet for difference. Crest, a Saracen’s
head. Footnote: He was father of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
Ireland, and great grandfather of Richard Weston first Earl of
Portland. The seal descended to and was used by Dr. John Weston,
Canon of Christchurch, Oxon, grandson of John Weston of Lichfield [the
previous page says this John died July 20, 1632, and was a son of
Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland].”

[Shawn]

Reference the relationship between Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
Ireland, and Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas. The
transfer of the advowson of Bucknell in County Oxford, from Richard
Weston’s son, Jerome Weston, who, like his father, lived in Roxwell,
County Essex, (93 miles from Oxford) to Alice (Weston) Ball, widow,
who lived in Lichfield, Staffordshire, (144 miles from Roxwell) seems
to makes no sense unless Richard Weston was a brother of Alice Weston—
i.e., Richard Weston, Justince of the Common Pleas, was a brother of
Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland. It seems improbable beyond
belief that the advowson passed from Jerome to Alice, who lived so far
away, by mere chance.

The advowson of Bucknell passed from:
- Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, of Roxwell, County
Essex, to his son,
- Sir Jerome Weston of Roxwell, County Essex, in 1572, to Jerome’s
aunt,
- Alice (Weston) Ball, widow, of Lichford, Staffordshire, in 1574, to
Alice (Weston) Ball’s son
- Robert Ball of Estington, County Gloster, in 1578, to Robert Ball’s
nephew,
- Josias White of Roxwell, County Essex, son of Isabel Ball and John
White of Stanton, and two other scholars of New College, Oxford, in
1611.

Alice Weston was a sister of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of
Ireland. See the Will of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
Dublin, Ireland, dated 2 May 1573, proved 18 Jul 1573, PROB 11/55,

National Archives, UK. “Item I give and bequeth to my Sister Ball my
Lease of a tenement in Brentwood in the holdings of Agnes White with
the seveall assignments to it belonging. I give also to my said
Sister my Lease of Helsmore … Item I give and bequeth to my cozen
[nephew] John Ball all my books.” John Ball also witnessed the will.

Sir William Segar, King of Arms, cited contemporary documents that
indicate that Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, was a brother
of Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas.

James Charles Blomfield, History of Ardley, Bucknell, Caversfield, and

Stoke Lynne (London: Elliot Stock, 1894), 8:53-55. “Soon after the
dissolution of Oseney Abbey, Henry VIII. sold the advowson [of
Bucknell] to Richard Weston, Esq. … The advowson [of Bucknell]
descended to Jeremiah [sic.] Weston, Esq., who in 1574 sold it to Mrs.
Ball of Lichfield. ‘Jeremiah [sic.] Weston of Roxwell co. Essex Esq.
grants to Alice Ball of the city of Lichfield widow the advowson and
right of patronage of the rectory of Bucknell. To hold the same for
ever. Dated 30 January, 16 Elizth.’ (Footnote: New College
Documents, Cart. 7.) Four years later Mrs. Ball gave the advowson to
her son Robert, Scholar of New College, 1569, Fellow 1571-82. ‘Alice
Ball of Lichfield widow grants to Robert Ball her son the advowson of
the church of Bucknell. To hold the same for ever. Dated 1 Feby, 20
Elizth.’ (Footnote: Ibid., Cart. 8.) … In 1611 Mr. Ball conveyed the
advowson as a gift to his college. ‘Indenture made 7 Sept. 8 James
1st between Robert Ball of Estington co. Gloster of the one part and

George Ryves of the univy of Oxford D.D. and Josyas White and Robert
Pinke of the university of Oxford aforesaid Maisters of arts of the
other part Witnesseth that the said Robert has granted to those of the
2nd part the right of patronage of the rectory of Buknell als

Buckenhull. To hold the same for ever, reserving the right of the

next presentation provided the same should fall during the lifetime of
the said Robert, of one of the Scholars of New Coll., and the said
parties to the 2nd part to always nominate a Scholar of New Coll.,

preference to be made of one of the kindred of he said Geo. [sic.]
Ball.’ (Footnote: New College Documents, Cart. 9.) ‘Indenture made
11 Feby. 12 James 1st Between Josyas White of Hornchurch co. Essex

B.D., and Robert Pinke of the Univ. of Oxon., B.M., of the one part
and the warden and scholars of New Coll. of the other being an

absolute grant of the advowson of Bucknell with right of patrongage,

etc. Subject to the covenant of putting in one of their fellows of
the same blood or kindred of Robert Ball late of Estington co. Gloster

(if such a one be fellow). Witness, etc.’ (Footnote: New College
Documents, Cart. 10.)”

[Shawn]

Reference the accusations of Lee and Waters (cited below) that Lilly
fabricated and Segar erroneously certified the lineage of Sir Richard
Weston, 1st Earl of Portland. In his argument, Waters cited a
contemporary deed that was put forth by Segar that states that John
Weston of Lichfield married a sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of
Westmorland. Then Waters questioned the veracity of the deed on the
basis of “the silence of all other authorities.” Lee then cited
Waters as evidence that Lilly fabricated and Segar erroneously
certified the lineage.

It is interesting that Harwood, a scholar from Lichfield, in his
history of Staffordshire, based on the work of Erdeswick, who was a
contemporary of these Weston families, endorsed Segar’s lineage (see
below). It also is interesting that King James imprisoned Segar for
certifying an erroneous lineage put forth by York Herald Brooke in
1616 (see below). One would think that Segar, who had been made
Garter, Principal King at Arms, because of his scholarship and
trustworthiness, would be especially careful to verify lineages after
this unpleasant episode. Neither does Noble’s description of the work
and reputation of Lilly, who Lee claimed had “fabricated” the lineage,
suggest that Lilly would forge a deed that showed the subject Neville
– Weston connection (see below).

Yet, the arguments by Lee and Waters (that the deed put forth by Segar
that shows that John Weston’s wife was a sister of the Earl of
Westmorland must be fabricated because there is no evidence that
Richard Weston, Justice of Common Pleas, was a brother of Robert
Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland) are belied by the transfer of the
advowson of Bucknell from Sir Jerome Weston, son of Richard Weston,
Justice of Common Pleas, to Alice (Weston) Ball, sister of Robert
Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland. Also, the possession by Robert
Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and then by his brother, James
Weston of Lichfield, of the prebend of Sawley, which previously had
been in the possession of two brothers of Isabel Booth, mother of
Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, demonstrates a connection between these
families. I wonder what other evidence Lee and Waters missed; and, in
light of the above discoveries, I wonder why one should believe Lee
and Waters (who wrote more than 200 years later) over Seger and Lilly
(who were near contemporaries of the events).

-------------------

Sidney Lee, ed., Dictionary of National Biography (London: Smith,
Elder, & Co., 1899), 60:364. “According to an elaborate pedigree
fabricated for Portland’s [Richard Weston, 1st Earl of Portland
(1577-1635] benefit in 1632 by Henry Lilly, then rouge croix,
certified by Sir William Segar, engrossed on vellum, extant in British
Museum Additional MS. 18667, and printed in Erdeswick’s
‘Staffordshire’ (ed. Harwood, p. 164), Portland was descended from the
ancient family of Weston, represented in the sixteenth century by
Robert Weston, lord chancellor of Ireland, who is erroneously said to
have been brother of Portland’s grandfather, Richard Weston (d. 1572),
justice of the common pleas. The judge is represented as a second son
of John Weston of Litchfield by Lady Cecily Neville, but there is no
proof that this branch of the Weston family had any connection with
Staffordshire; and Morant’s statement, that he came from an Essex
family, is more probably correct. His grandfather seems to have been
William Weston (d. 1515), whose fourth son, John, was father of the
judge (see an elaborate examination of the Weston genealogy in Chester
Waters, Chesters of Chicheley, pp. 93 sqq.).”

Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct

Family of Chester of Chicheley (London: Robson and Sons, 1878),
1:110. “The doubts expressed in the text respecting Segar's
statement, that John Weston of Lichfield was the father of Richard
Weston the Judge, apply with still greater force to the statement,
that his mother was Lady Cecily Nevill, the sister of Ralph Earl of
Westmoreland. Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or
wills of the Nevills, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to
their illustrious connexions. The whole story seems to depend on a
deed, abstracted by Segar, ‘Sciant omnes &c. quod ego Johannes Weston

de Rugeley Senior, gen. dedi &c. ad usum Johis. Weston junioris filii

mei et Cecilie uxoris ejus, sororis Radi Com. Westmoreland, &c. Dat.
Lichfield 15 July, 18 Hen. VIII.’ (15) But even if this deed be
genuine, it is in the silence of all other authorities a very
unsatisfactory proof of Cecily’s parentage.”

Thomas Harwood, BDFSA, A Survey of Staffordshire: Containing the
Antiquities of that County by Sampson Erdeswick, Esq. (Westminster:
John Nichols and Sons, 1820), xxix. “Sampson Erdeswick was the son of
Hugh Erdeswick, esq. descended from an ancient family at Sandou in
this county, where he was born. He became a gentleman commoner of
Brazenose college, Oxford, in 1553-4; where he laid the foundation of
his future eminence and usefulness. He afterwards retired to the
possession of his patrimony, and devoted his time to the pursuit and
encouragement of elegant learning. He began his ‘View’ or ‘Survey’ of
Staffordshire, about 1593, and continued it to his death [April 11,
1603].” Ibid., 128. Genealogy chart, image on Google books site
obscured, showing: Johannes Weston de Lichfield, 4 fil. 18 Hen. VIII.
= Cecilia, soror Radulphi, comitis Westmorlandiae, fil. Radulphi,
domini Freville, parents of Alicia Weston, nupta ... Barber, 25 Hen.
VIII. Ibid., 129. Genealogy chart, image on Google books site
obscured, showing: Johannes Weston de Lichfield, 4 fil. 18 Hen. VIII.
= Cecilia, soror Radulphi, comitis Westmorlandiae, fil. Radulphi,
domini Freville, parents of Jacobus Weston de Lichfield ... = Margeria
fil. Hum. Lowe de Lichfield, ob. 1587. Ibid., 130. Genealogy chart,
image on Google books site obscured, showing: Johannes Weston de
Lichfield, 4 fil. 18 Hen. VIII. = Cecilia, soror Radulphi, comitis
Westmorlandiae, fil. Radulphi, domini Freville, parents of Alicia
Weston, nupta Johanni Ball, de Lichfield, and Catherine Weston =
Johannes Dyott, de Lichfield.

Mark Noble, FAS, A History of the College of Arms (London: J. Debrett,
1804), 204. Segar was made Garter, Principal King at Arms, on October
30, 1593. Ibid., 231-232. “His Majesty conferred the honor of
Knighthood upon him, November 5, (as Lant says, as others, 9), 1616.
In the following month, incurring the royal displeasure, he was
imprisoned: he had imprudently given a man the royal arms of Arragon,
with a Canton of Brabant, or at least confirmed them, for the small
sum of twenty-two shillings; this man was sent by Brooke, or
Brookesmouth, York herald, the most vicious and abandoned character
that ever disgraced any society; the man who sued and obtained the
grant, or confirmation, was Brandon, the public executioner. York,
finding his diabolical scheme succeed so far, shewed the grant to the
King, who was highly exasperated; but at length the iniquitous
business being unravelled, Garter was restored to freedom and favor. …
Garter Anstis says, he [Segar] died December 13, 1633.” Ibid., 249.
“Henry Lilly, Gent., Signet in January 1637-8. Second son of John
Lilly, of London, but born in Worcestershire; his mother was Mary,
daughter and coheir of John Gabott, of London, merchant-taylor.
Whilst Rouge-rose, he was employed, in 1634, with Owen, York herald,
to visit the counties of Essex and Worcester, for Sir Richard St.
George, Clarenceux, and Sir John Burrough, Norroy. There can be but
little doubt, that Rouge-croix was the Mr. Henry Lilly, ‘an arms
painter in Little Britain,’ who Mr. Dugdale, afterwards Garter, gained
an acquaintance with, before he became an officer at arms; and who,
that great antiquary says, ‘according to that measure of learning he
had gained, was not a little versed in those studies, having been
employed by divers persons of honor and quality, in framing their
pedigree out of original evidences, and other warrantable
authorities.’ This taste for heraldry and genealogy, led him to
obtain a place in the College. Unfortunately he died in the same year
he became Rouge-croix. The manuscript pedigrees he left of the
nobility, so justly prized, evince he was a person of great merit in
his profession. He was buried in Farnham church, in Essex.”

[Brad Verity]

On Nov 26, 6:43 am, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Neither does Noble’s description of the work
> and reputation of Lilly, who Lee claimed had “fabricated” the lineage,
> suggest that Lilly would forge a deed that showed the subject Neville
> – Weston connection (see below).

Where is this deed? Is it in the Access To Archives or National
Archives databases? Is it among the papers of the Weston family, or
filed in the College of Arms? In order to authenticate this descent,
and revise the peerage publications, this deed needs to be examined.
Otherwise the descent remains as dubious today as it did in the 19th
century.

> Yet, the arguments by Lee and Waters (that the deed put forth by Segar
> that shows that John Weston’s wife was a sister of the Earl of
> Westmorland must be fabricated because there is no evidence that
> Richard Weston, Justice of Common Pleas, was a brother of Robert
> Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland) are belied by the transfer of the
> advowson of Bucknell from Sir Jerome Weston, son of Richard Weston,
> Justice of Common Pleas, to Alice (Weston) Ball, sister of Robert
> Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland.

If there was an actual transfer of an advowson from one party to
another, it would be recorded through a fine, or deed of sale, or some
kind of documentation.

> Also, the possession by Robert
> Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and then by his brother, James
> Weston of Lichfield, of the prebend of Sawley, which previously had
> been in the possession of two brothers of Isabel Booth, mother of
> Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, demonstrates a connection between these
> families.

No, it demonstrates that each of the families had a connection to the
(village?) of Sawley, not necessarily to each other. Is Sawley
covered in the Victoria County History series? Which county is it in?

> Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct
> Family of Chester of Chicheley (London: Robson and Sons, 1878),
> 1:110.  “The doubts expressed in the text respecting Segar's
> statement, that John Weston of Lichfield was the father of Richard
> Weston the Judge, apply with still greater force to the statement,
> that his mother was Lady Cecily Nevill, the sister of Ralph Earl of
> Westmoreland.  Cecily Weston does not occur in any of the pedigrees or
> wills of the Nevills, and her supposed sons never allude in any way to
> their illustrious connexions.

Waters is dead-on correct here. The only known full-blood sister of
the 4th Earl of Westmorland was Isabel Neville, who married 1st, Sir
Robert Plumpton of Plumpton, and 2nd, Lawrence Kighley of New Hall.
Isabel and any sister she may have had would not be in any position to
choose their own husbands. Ralph Lord Neville married Edith Sandys in
1490, and died in 1498, the year his son Ralph the future 4th Earl was
born. Isabel and any other daughters were thus born in the
mid-1490s. Isabel's first husband, Sir Robert Plumpton, was born in
1453, so he was forty years her senior. That most definitely was not
a love match, but a marriage arranged for her by (most likely) her
mother and her stepfather, Thomas Lord Darcy. Isabel's second husband
Lawrence Kighley was from a less-established family than the
Plumptons, but as a widow aged close to 30 (Plumpton died in 1525),
Isabel was able to make her own choice about her next husband.

Who was John Weston of Lichfield? All we know is that he was the
fourth son of a Nottinghamshire family. What made him a suitable
match for the daughter of Lady Darcy? Was he a part of Lord Darcy's
household? Was he an attorney for the family? Was he a wealthy
merchant? Lord Darcy of course is most famous for his role as one of
the nobles caught up in the Pilgrimage of Grace in 1536 (He's played
by Colm Wilkinson in Season 3 of 'The Tudors'). Were the Westons by
his side in this? Can any connection be made between the Weston
family and the Darcy family at all, let alone the Nevilles?

> The whole story seems to depend on a
> deed, abstracted by Segar, ‘Sciant omnes &c. quod ego Johannes Weston
> de Rugeley Senior, gen. dedi &c. ad usum Johis. Weston junioris filii
> mei et Cecilie uxoris ejus, sororis Radi Com.  Westmoreland, &c.  Dat.
> Lichfield 15 July, 18 Hen. VIII.’ (15) But even if this deed be
> genuine, it is in the silence of all other authorities a very
> unsatisfactory proof of Cecily’s parentage.”

And this deed, if it is authentic, does not state Cecily's parentage.
It merely states she was the sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland.
She could be a bastard half-sister from his father; she could be a
half-sister from his mother's second marriage to Lord Darcy. She
could be a step-sister, either a daughter from Lord Darcy's previous
marriage, or a bastard daughter of his. Any of those relationships
would still qualify her to be labeled 'sororis Radi Com. Westmoreland'
in a deed. And what was this deed conveying? What was John Weston of
Rugeley giving to his son John and young John's wife Cecily?

I understand your questioning, Shawn, as to why the pedigree would be
faked. More specifically, why would the herald Segar have picked the
Earls of Westmorland as the noble family from which to descend the
Westons? Did he do it because by the end of the 16th century, the
Nevilles of Westmorland were exiled & disgraced & in no position to
challenge a bogus pedigree? Or was there actually an authentic
connection between the Westons & Nevilles (and/or Darcys, with Segar
assuming the 4th Earl's paternal family & overlooking his step-family)
back in the early 16th-century that the herald reported truthfully, or
seized on and 'enhanced'?

Lots of questions. Certainly more research needs to be done before
the descent can be considered a valid one. At least you're on the
right track, and seem to be enjoying gathering all of the information!

Cheers, -------Brad

[John]

With respect to Sir Richard Neville the Justice, we should keep in
mind that there are TWO apparent issues with his ancestry. The
question of Cecily Neville being discussed here has a bearing not just
for Sir Richard but for the Westons of Lichfield in general. But the
other issue which still remains is whether Sir Richard the Justice was
in fact connected to the Westons of Lichfield or whether he had
different parents entirely, as indicated in HOP and ODNB (perhaps
based on Morant's Kent).

The construction of a fraudulent pedigree, apparently at the behest of
Sir Richard's grandson, has been discussed here, but it's not clear
whether the fraud encompassed the Cecily Neville issue or the
connection of the two Weston families - or both.

As Brad says, Shawn has done quite a job of gathering information on
this subject. But I think the jury is still out on both aspects of
the pedigree problem.

One small point on the advowson of Bucknell: It seems strange that
Sir Richard's son Sir Jerome would transfer the advowson to his
supposed aunt Alice Weston Ball in preference to his own son the
future earl of Portland, or to one of Jerome's daughters - or, for
that matter, to one of Alice's brothers or their heirs.

[Wjhonson]

Jerome also had two living nephews, sons of his sister Amphyllis (Weston) Tichborne
Both nephews had been born before Jerome died, and both were living when he died.

-----Original Message-----
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2011 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: New Walton Descent from Edward III

<snip>

[Shawn]

Wow, Brad, thank you for your many good questions—rhetorical, leading,
and otherwise. I truly appreciate your thoughts. As you say, one
ultimately must track down and examine the records cited by Segar in
order to assess their veracity. I hope others will take an interest
and make the effort as well.

Your thoughts about the likely role of Lord Darcy in any marriage of a
daughter or step-daughter are helpful. By the way, if the mother of
Robert Weston was a daughter of Edith Sandys, who was wife first of
Ralph Neville and second of Thomas Darcy, it seems to me more likely
that Robert’s mother was a daughter of Edith’s first marriage to Ralph
Neville, because Robert was not his mother’s first son and Robert is
described in various sources as being born in 1515. Edith’s marriage
to Thomas Darcy after Ralph Neville’s death in 1499 seems too late to
produce a daughter who would be the mother of John Weston’s children
born before 1515.

Reference the advowson of Bucknell, Richard Weston, Justice of the
Common Pleas, gave the advowson of Bucknell to his son, Jerome, in his
will. According to Blomfield, the transfers of the advowson of
Bucknell from Jerome Weston, to Alice (Weston) Ball, to Robert Ball,
to Josias White et al., are recorded in Oxford University, New College
Documents, Cart. 8, 9, and 10. These, and associated records, must be
found and examined.

As you suggest, I have been enjoying this search. Yet, I hope others
who are equally interested and have greater experience in medieval
research will join the quest.

Thanks again,

Shawn

[Shawn]

Reference questions about the transfer of the advowson of Bucknell
from Jerome Weston to his aunt, Alice (Weston) Ball. There are
presedences for such transfers to other than eldest sons. In his
will, Robert Weston bequeathed advowsons, prebends, and leases to his
sister, Alice (Weston) Ball, his brother, James, his daughter, Audrie,
and his son, John. At the same time, he gave his daughter, Alice,
only money, arias hangings, and his great gilt cup—no advowson,
prebend, or lease. We see the same practice of giving advowsons,
prebends, and leases to people other than an eldest son in the will of
Richard Weston. So, I don’t see why it would be surprising that
Jerome gave the advowson of Bucknell to his aunt, especially since the
records indicate that he did.

[Wjhonson]

Please cite exactly where Blomfield states this

-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn <shp...@comcast.net>

To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2011 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: New Walton Descent from Edward III

[Shawn]

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of

> the message- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Please see my post yesterday--Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:41:19 -0800 (PST)--
which provided the following details.

[Wjhonson]

It's odd that for "grant" one you quote "sold" and for "grant" two you quote "GAVE"
Both quotes use the word grant. Doesn't it strike you that these original documents can be found and examined?

-----Original Message-----
From: Shawn <shp...@comcast.net>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com

[Shawn]

Thank you for your helpful observation. I noticed that Blomfield said
“sold” and then quoted “granted” with respect to Jerome’s transfer of
the advowson to Alice; but I did not notice that Blomfield’s second
quote, in saying “granted” was identical to his first quote. These
original documents truly should be found and examined. I wonder if
Jerome’s transfer of the advowson to Alice explicitly states their
relationship. Yet, even without that information, the mere discovery
of the transfer of the advowson from Jerome Weston to Alice (Weston)
Ball—especially when one considers the great distance between Jerome
and Alice in counties Essex and Stafford—seems to be a strong
indication that Segar was correct when he showed that Richard Weston,
Justice of the Common Pleas, was a brother of Robert Weston, Lord
Chancellor of Ireland.

[Wjhonson]

Shawn there's no point in continuing to beat the horse

Start searching for those original documents.

[Shawn]

Reference speculation about the identity of the parents of Cecily,
wife of John Weston of Lichfield. Segar clearly stated that Cecily
was a daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville. On the second page of
Segar’s lineage, which faces page 126 in Harwood’s Survey of
Staffordshire, we read: “Johannes Weston de Lichfield, 4 fil. 18 Hen.
VIII. ... = Cecilia, soror Radulphi, comitis Westmorlandiae, fil.
Radulphi, domini Freville.” The abbreviated phrase “fil. Radulphi”
could either mean “son of Ralph” or “daughter of Ralph,” depending on
the complete word being abbreviated by “fil.” But, on the third and
fourth pages of this lineage, this same generation is repeated, and
the phrase in question is spelled out as: “filia Radulphi,” which can
only mean “daughter of Ralph.” So, Segar clearly stated that Cecily
was a daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville. By the way, I suspect
that “Lord Freville” in Harwood’s copy of the lineage was a misreading
of “Lord Neville.” See Thomas Harwood, BDFSA, A Survey of

Staffordshire: Containing the Antiquities of that County by Sampson

Erdeswick, Esq. (Westminster: John Nichols and Sons, 1820), four-page
lineage facing page 126, at http://books.google.com/books?id=WZPRAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA126#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Shawn ~

I had the opportunity just now to review the various Neville pedigrees
which mention Sir Ralph Neville, Lord Neville (died 1498), and his
wife, Edith Sandes. I've listed them below for your review.

1. Collectanea Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 297–299 (Neville ped.: “Lord
Neville, wedded Edith, dau. of Sir William Sandys.”).

This record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=C80KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA299

2. Tonge, Vis. of Northern Counties 1530 (Surtees Soc. 41) (1863): 28–
30 (Neville ped.: “Rauff Lord Nevill, son and heyre of Rauff Erle of
Westmerland, maried Edyth, doughter of Syr John Sandes, and sister to
Willyam Lord Sandes.”).

This record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2KUwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA29

3. Flower Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 224–226 (Nevill
ped.: “Raff Lord Nevell, son & heyr, dyed his father lyvinge. =
Elsabeth doughter of Sir John Sandes syster to William Lord Sandes.”).

This record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JvwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA226

The first pedigree above gives no children for Ralph and his wife,
Edith, as it was contemporary to their marriage. The latter two
pedigrees state that Ralph Neville and his wife, Edith Sandes, had but
one surviving child, Ralph, and no daughters. This is surely fatal
to your thesis that there was a daughter, Cecily, who married John
Weston.

Elsewhere I find in claimed in Stapleton, Plumpton Correspondence
(Camden Soc. 4) (1839): cxiv–cxvi, 196–197 that Ralph and Edith
Neville had a daughter, Isabel, who married (1st) Robert Plumpton,
Knt., and (2nd) Lawrence Kighley, Esq. The evidence for the existence
of such a daughter is taken from an undated letter written by "Edith
Nevill" which is addressed to "Myn own good Lady Plumpton." Edith
begins the letter by saying, "I recommende me unto you and to your gud
husband." The address and opening are hardly those of a mother
writing to her daughter. In fact, no where does Edith Neville refer
to Lady Plumpton as her daughter. The letter may be viewed at the
following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wZcKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA196

Since the letter is undated, it is impossible to say which of Sir
Robert Plumpton's two wives were being addressed by Edith Neville.
The editor assumes that it was the second wife, Isabel, which may be
true, but we have no way of knowing.

That Edith Sandys is the mother of Isabel Plumpton is inferred by the
editor from a statement in the letter which reads: ""Written in hast
with the hand of your mother, the 28 day of April."

This could mean that it was Lady Plumpton's mother who wrote the
letter for Edith Neville, or perhaps that Edith Neville was Lady
Plumpton's godmother. On its own, this letter should not be taken as
conclusive evidence that Edith Sandes was Isabel Plumpton's mother,
especially since the two visitations cited above fail to mention
Isabel's existence, and since we can't tell which Lady Plumpton was
the recipient of the letter.

Possibly other evidence can be found which proves that Isabel Plumpton
was a Neville. I note that the editor, Mr. Stapleton, mentions a
settlement made in 1505 by Isabel's husband, Sir Robert Plumpton. The
settlement apparently mentions Isabel alright, but not her maiden
name.

If anyone knows of further particulars on this matter, I'd appreciate
hearing from them here on the newsgroup. This matter deserves further
research before Stapleton's claims can be accepted that Isabel
Plumpton was the daughter of Ralph and Edith Neville.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Shawn]

Douglas,

Thank you very much. I appreciate your thoughts. These are awesome
sources.

I have several questions. Since these visitations do not list Isabel
as a daughter of Edith, yet Edith’s letter appears to indicate that
Isabel was Edith’s daughter, is it reasonable then to say that Cecily
could not likewise have been a previously unknown daughter? My
question, of course, assumes that Isabel was Edith’s daughter, which
seems likely from the letter. If Isabel is an otherwise unattested
daughter, this discovery seems to support the possibility that another
child—i.e., Cecily—may have have existed.

Also, some have speculated that Cecily may have been a bastard
daughter of Ralph Neville. Is that a possibility? Segar said Cecily
was sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland, and daughter of Ralf, Lord
Neville. If Segar was correct, then Cecily could have been a
previously unknown daughter of one of Ralph’s wives or a bastard
daughter. Do you know of a primary source that eliminates any or all
of these possibilities?

Digging into a lineage that was attested by the Garter King of Arms,
yet is poorly attested and has been doubted by later scholars, is
interesting and a challenge. Chasing phantoms is not.

On the other hand, the Westons, with their sudden surge to prominence
and their scholarly and religious connections, are interesting. It
would be interesting to know more about their forebears regardless of
who they were.

Thanks again,

Shawn

[Douglas Richardson]

Shawn ~

You need to read my comments again.

I stated that Edith Neville's letter was undated and addressed to an
unnamed Lady Plumpton. It was the editor's assumption that the letter
was addressed to Sir Robert Plumpton's second wife, Isabel. It could
have been addressed just as easily to Sir Robert Plumpton's first
wife, Agnes Gascoigne.

The sentence "Written in hast with the hand of your mother, the 28 day
of April" doesn't necessarily mean that Edith Neville was Lady
Plumpton's mother. As I stated, it could mean that Agnes or Isabel's
own mother wrote the letter for Edith Neville, or that Edith Neville
was Agnes or Isabel Plumpton's godmother.

Given that Edith Neville did not refer to Lady Plumpton as her
daughter, and given that Isabel, the 2nd wife of Sir Robert Plumpton,
doesn't occur in the Neville family pedigrees, I believe that Mr.
Stapleton made an unwarranted assumption that Isabel Plumpton was the
blood daughter of Edith (Sandys) Neville.

Furthermore I should note that Mr. Stapleton provides us no evidence
to prove that the Edith Neville who wrote the letter was even Edith
Sandys, widow of Ralph Neville.

[Shawn]

Douglas,

Thank you for the clarification. I understood that you were skeptical
about the claims that Isabel was Edith's daughter and about whether
the Edith who wrote the letter was the wife of Ralph Neville, Lord
Neville. Your request for further evidence regarding these points
makes sense to me from what little I have seen. At the same time,
entertainment of this question at all (the possibility of a previously
unknown daughter) seems to suggest that children occasionally are not
listed in visitation lineages, so the absense of children in
visitation lineages should not be taken at face value, without further
evidence, to indicate that other children did not exist. Aren't there
instances of ommitted children in visitation lineages? I return to my
original question with regard to primary sources that bear on the
question of Segar's claims.

Shawn

[Shawn]

As I think further about this question, I wonder, if Cecily were a
bastard daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, wouldn't the Garter
King of Arms have qualified his statement that John Weston's wife was
"Cecilia, soror Radulphi, comitis Westmorlandiae, filia Radulphi,
domini Freville" [sic.]? I think the answer to my question is yes--
but I invite comment from others who are more familiar with these
types of records. It seems to me that Segar's statement means that
Cecily was a sister (either half or full) of the Earl of Westmorland
and a daughter (lawfully born) of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville.

On Nov 27, 8:34 pm, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Douglas,

[myrkrider]

> > of these possibilities?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I have seen online that Ralph Neville Lord Neville married first a
Mary Paston the daughter of Sir William Paston and Anne Beaufot. I
don't know if this is true, but it also states that she died of
measles in Westminster Palace. The record lists no children but if
they had had a child that child would be a legitimate child of Ralph
Neville Lord Neville and a half sibling of Ralph Neville Earl
Westmorland.

[Wjhonson]

They were married in the presence of the king and queen.
I doubt she was six months pregnant at the time.
Anneys and Elizabeth were their father's co-heiresses alone. That would not have been the case were there a grandchild as well.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com

[Brad Verity]

On Nov 27, 2:48 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

> I had the opportunity just now to review the various Neville pedigrees
> which mention Sir Ralph Neville, Lord Neville (died 1498), and his
> wife, Edith Sandes.  I've listed them below for your review.
>
> 1. Collectanea Top. et Gen. 1 (1834): 297–299 (Neville ped.: “Lord
> Neville, wedded Edith, dau. of Sir William Sandys.”).
>
> This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=C80KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA299

As you say below, Douglas, this record doesn't help in this situation
as it states only the marriage.

> 2. Tonge, Vis. of Northern Counties 1530 (Surtees Soc. 41) (1863): 28–
> 30 (Neville ped.: “Rauff Lord Nevill, son and heyre of Rauff Erle of
> Westmerland, maried Edyth, doughter of Syr John Sandes, and sister to
> Willyam Lord Sandes.”).
>
> This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=2KUwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA29

The herald Tonge ignores daughters in several of the pedigrees in this
work. Scrolling through quickly, I notice that the pedigrees of
Scrope of Bolton and Boynton of Sedbury omit known daughters and
younger sons from generations.

> 3. Flower Vis. of Yorkshire 1563–4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 224–226 (Nevill
> ped.: “Raff Lord Nevell, son & heyr, dyed his father lyvinge. =
> Elsabeth doughter of Sir John Sandes syster to William Lord Sandes.”).
>
> This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=JvwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA226

Frankly, this work is useless as evidence as these pedigrees are
patchworked together by its well-meaning editor using a manuscript
that was the workbook of late 16th-century heralds. The Visitations
of the North series printed by the Surtees Society are the ones to
consult for the authentic pedigrees taken during the 1563-64
visitation.

> The first pedigree above gives no children for Ralph and his wife,
> Edith, as it was contemporary to their marriage.  The latter two
> pedigrees state that Ralph Neville and his wife, Edith Sandes, had but
> one surviving child, Ralph, and no daughters.   This is surely fatal
> to your thesis that there was a daughter, Cecily, who married John
> Weston.

"Fatal" seems too extreme. None of the above pedigrees are strong
enough sources to come to the conclusion that the 4th Earl of
Westmorland was the only child of his parents.

> Elsewhere I find in claimed in Stapleton, Plumpton Correspondence
> (Camden Soc. 4) (1839): cxiv–cxvi, 196–197 that Ralph and Edith
> Neville had a daughter, Isabel, who married (1st) Robert Plumpton,
> Knt., and (2nd) Lawrence Kighley, Esq.  The evidence for the existence
> of such a daughter is taken from an undated letter written by "Edith
> Nevill" which is addressed to "Myn own good Lady Plumpton."  Edith
> begins the letter by saying, "I recommende me unto you and to your gud
> husband."  The address and opening are hardly those of a mother
> writing to her daughter.  In fact, no where does Edith Neville refer
> to Lady Plumpton as her daughter.  The letter may be viewed at the
> following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=wZcKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA196

Thank you for providing this link.

> Since the letter is undated, it is impossible to say which of Sir
> Robert Plumpton's two wives were being addressed by Edith Neville.
> The editor assumes that it was the second wife, Isabel, which may be
> true, but we have no way of knowing.

I think its a natural conclusion, since Joan Neville Gascoigne
Harrington, the mother of Agnes Gascoigne, the first Lady Plumpton,
was dead before 1482. The money referred to in the letter, which
Edith gives to Lady Plumpton, was in regards to financial difficulties
that Sir Robert Plumpton was experiencing in the first decade of the
1500s, when the two husbands of Sir Robert's nieces were disputing him
over the Plumpton inheritance.

> That Edith Sandys is the mother of Isabel Plumpton is inferred by the
> editor from a statement in the letter which reads: ""Written in hast
> with the hand of your mother, the 28 day of April."

Since it would appear to be the second Lady Plumpton to whom the
letter is addressed, given the chronology, I think the Mr. Stapleton
made a logical conclusion in regards to the relationship between her
and Edith Neville.

> This could mean that it was Lady Plumpton's mother who wrote the
> letter for Edith Neville,

Which is the most direct interpretation of Edith's statement.

> or perhaps that Edith Neville was Lady
> Plumpton's godmother.

It's a bit of a stretch, but I agree that a godmother could use the
sign-off statement that closes the letter. So could a step-mother.

> On its own, this letter should not be taken as
> conclusive evidence that Edith Sandes was Isabel Plumpton's mother,
> especially since the two visitations cited above fail to mention
> Isabel's existence, and since we can't tell which Lady Plumpton was
> the recipient of the letter.

I agree. It's strong evidence, but not definitive. Though I disagree
the reason is because we can't tell which Lady Plumpton received the
letter. Agnes Plumpton's mother was long-dead by 1500, she had no
stepmother, and it is not possible chronologically for Edith Sandys to
have been a godmother to Agnes at her birth in the 1450s. So Edith
Neville could have no mother relationship to the first Lady Neville.
It had to have been the second one.

> Possibly other evidence can be found which proves that Isabel Plumpton
> was a Neville.  I note that the editor, Mr. Stapleton, mentions a
> settlement made in 1505 by Isabel's husband, Sir Robert Plumpton.  The
> settlement apparently mentions Isabel alright, but not her maiden
> name.

Correct. The settlement does however list Sir William (later 1st
Lord) Sandys at the head of the feoffees. He was Edith's brother, and
his involvement in Isabel Plumpton's marriage settlement is strong
evidence of a relationship. Especially since the Sandys' estates were
centered in Hampshire, far away from the Plumpton family in
Yorkshire. So it's not as if Sir William Sandys was heading the list
of Plumpton feoffees because he was a close neighbour and colleague of
Sir Robert's.

> If anyone knows of further particulars on this matter, I'd appreciate
> hearing from them here on the newsgroup.  This matter deserves further
> research before Stapleton's claims can be accepted that Isabel
> Plumpton was the daughter of Ralph and Edith Neville.

I do agree, Douglas, that there is a bit of red flag here, but my big
concern is the chronology. The fact that Sir Robert Plumpton made a
marriage settlement on his second wife Isabel in September 1505
indicates that she would have been of sufficient age to co-habit and
consummate her marriage at that date. Yet, with Ralph Lord Neville
and Edith Sandys married in 1490, the oldest Isabel could have been in
September 1505 was age 14, which seems a bit young to be given over to
a 50-year-old knight as a full-fledged wife.

I wonder if it's possible that Lord Neville and Edith were married
earlier than 1490, or if Edith had a husband prior to Lord Neville? I
haven't researched the Sandys family in any detail yet, as they do not
descend from Edward I. Edith herself is the first of them to marry
into the Edward I bloodline, and it is likely her kinship to King
Henry VII's mother, the Countess of Richmond, which secured her a
future earl as a husband. She may have been a young widow at that
point, with an infant daughter?

The other possibility was that Edith was stepmother to Isabel
Plumpton, who would then be a daughter of Thomas Lord Darcy by his
first wife. Is there any pedigree that establishes the children of
Thomas Lord Darcy with any authority?

On Nov 27, 5:34 pm, Shawn <shpx...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have several questions. Since these visitations do not list Isabel
> as a daughter of Edith, yet Edith’s letter appears to indicate that
> Isabel was Edith’s daughter, is it reasonable then to say that Cecily

> could not likewise have been a previously unknown daughter?

Yes, Shawn, that would be a reasonable conclusion. The only firm
evidence is the 1530 Visitation pedigree that herald Thomas Tonge took
of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland. He didn't cite any siblings for the
Earl. Yet there are other pedigrees that Tonge took, where known
siblings have been left off of the pedigree. So if a sibling of the
Earl can be concluded through other sources, then we know that the
Westmorland pedigree was one where Tonge simply focused on direct line-
of-succession.

But the pedigree brings up an important point. Up until the
mid-1520s, when the 4th Earl of Westmorland and his wife began to
produce children, the Earl's heirs to the Westmorland inheritance
would be any full-blood sisters he may have had. So if Cecily Weston
and Isabel Plumpton were indeed daughters of Lord Neville & Edith
Sandys, they would have been potential co-heiresses of their brother
at the time their marriages were arranged. Neither Sir Robert
Plumpton or John Weston could be considered of sufficient standing to
potentially divide up the Westmorland inheritance.

> My
> question, of course, assumes that Isabel was Edith’s daughter, which
> seems likely from the letter. If Isabel is an otherwise unattested
> daughter, this discovery seems to support the possibility that another
> child—i.e., Cecily—may have have existed.

Yes. So ascertaining the parentage of Isabel Lady Plumpton is vital
for authenticating any royal descent for the Westons.

> Also, some have speculated that Cecily may have been a bastard
> daughter of Ralph Neville. Is that a possibility?

It's always possible, but any bastard Lord Neville may have had, he
would be in a position to provide for, and for a daughter her marriage
would be her provision. So does John Weston figure into the household
of the earls of Westmorland? Do wills exist for Lord Neville and his
father the 3rd Earl of Westmorland? It would be expected for them to
provide for any daughters, legitimate or otherwise, who were unmarried
at the time they made their wills.

> Segar said Cecily
> was sister of Ralph, Earl of Westmorland, and daughter of Ralf, Lord
> Neville. If Segar was correct,

And that of course is the big 'if'. Segar provides as evidence for his
conclusion only a transcribed fine. And the only definitive
conclusion that can be made from the fine as transcribed by Segar is
that Cecily was identified as a sister to Ralph Earl of Westmorland
(presumably sister to the earl alive at the date of the fine). The
possibility for the Earl to even have a sibling is what is being
looked into at the moment.

> then Cecily could have been a
> previously unknown daughter of one of Ralph’s wives or a bastard
> daughter. Do you know of a primary source that eliminates any or all
> of these possibilities?

That's what we're looking at now. So far none has turned up. I must
say, that at this point, it looks doubtful to me that either Cecily
Weston or even Isabel Lady Plumpton could have been full-blood sisters
of the 4th Earl of Westmorland. And the strongest indicator of this
is the families the ladies married into. Neither one seems to be in
any kind of position to warrant the potential inheritance of the
Westmorland estate should the young 4th earl die before his own
marriage. Isabel has a stronger case as a full-blood sister because
of the letter sent to her by Edith Lady Neville. But Douglas
correctly points out that the letter itself is not definitive proof,
as there is the possibility that Edith was actually a step-mother or
godmother to Isabel, rather than birth mother.

Cheers, -----Brad