Weston Pedigree Reconsidered

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Shawn Potter

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Nov 11, 2022, 2:03:04 AM11/11/22
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Twelve years ago, I summarized my work on the 1633 Weston pedigree by the College of Arms here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QozzNrcLPPY/m/7kkDUgcx-f8J
. I quickly concluded that a formal presentation was needed, drafted an article, and then had to put that work on hold due to other commitments.

Now that I am retired, my wife and I have published our research in a new book entitled Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms. You can find it in multiple formats here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/. We not only present the evidence that we found so many years ago -- and more, we also share images of the manuscript documentation, thanks to permission by the British Library.

We would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of the book.

Best,
Shawn Potter

Will Johnson

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Nov 12, 2022, 10:57:10 AM11/12/22
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I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.

Shawn Potter

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Nov 12, 2022, 11:52:08 AM11/12/22
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On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 10:57:10 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

> I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.

Hi Will,

Thank you for your good question. The answer is, yes. Before our online discussion, my wife and I ordered and examined quite a few original documents. We also continued that process for a few months after our discussion; and we engaged the assistance of several British scholars to search UK holdings and translate Latin documents. We cite and illustrate these discoveries throughout our book.

I think you will find that we present a well-sourced, well-reasoned, and compelling case for our conclusions. We hope that you and others will evaluate our work for yourselves.

Best always,
Shawn Potter
shp...@gmail.com

Shawn Potter

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Dec 1, 2022, 2:13:44 AM12/1/22
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On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 10:57:10 AM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.

Further, in response to your good question, Will, we decided that it was unnecessary to address the Kettle document in our book. Matt Tompkins offered valuable perspective here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/37WN4EU-PyA/m/MpM0kLeAX9kJ when he wrote: "The document is a puzzling one, however, and needs careful interpretation. It consists of just a list of names with almost no other detail identifying individuals or their relationships, tantalizingly holding back as much evidence as it offers. It is undated, though its editor believes it to have been produced around 1532-3, and it nowhere explains what information it is recording – it appears to be a list of family groups, arranged by place of residence but with no indication of its meaning. Although it lists a large proportion of the households in each place, it clearly does not list all of them – but the reason for inclusion or exclusion is not apparent. Particularly oddly, many of the family groups include deceased members. The editor surmises that it may have been a list of souls to be prayed for. (All this is discussed in the introduction to the volume.)" However, after Matt went on to describe the contents of the Kettle document, he concluded: "It does look as though the John Weston living in Saddler Street in c1532-3 is the same man as Segar and Lily’s 60 John, though."

We believe Matt was mistaken with respect to his conclusion. But, of course, he reached this opinion, while expressing some reservation, before he had the benefit of our review of the Weston pedigree documentation in our book.

If we had addressed the Kettle document in our book, our first observation would have been that it presents a list of Weston names as if the named individuals belong to a single family, including nine children who are otherwise not attested to be children of John Weston of Lichfield -- i.e., Elizabeth, Agnes, John, Nicholas, +William, +John, Ellen, John, and Joan. Beyond the mysterious identities of these nine unattested children, we note that the list includes three presumed sons named John. The first John is listed as if he was still living in 1532-3, the second John is listed as if he was deceased in 1532-3, and the third John is listed as if he was living in 1532-3. We believe it is unlikely that a single family would include three children (two living at the same time) all bearing the same name. We conclude from the numerous unattested living and deceased children on the list that this is not an account of the family of John Weston of Lichfield, subject of the Weston pedigree, and we also conclude from the two living sons named John that someone created this list from multiple records, and then erroneously suggested that the names represent a single family.

Our second observation would have been that the cross appended to the presumed son named Richard appears to indicate that this son was deceased in 1532-3; and we also would have noted that there is no living son named Richard on the list. If the evidence that we present in our book regarding the fraternal relationship between Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston is correct -- which we believe is conclusive, then the presence of this deceased son named Richard and the absence of a living son named Richard (i.e., Justice Weston) demonstrates that this list does not provide an accurate record the family of John Weston of Lichfield, subject of the Weston pedigree, for we know that Justice Weston died on 6 Jul 1572.

We concluded that simple scrutiny reveals that the Kettle document does not provide an accurate account of the family of John Weston of Lichfield, subject of the Weston pedigree -- so we did not mention the list in our book. The Kettle document may refer to another family, or no family at all. On the other hand, we provide a compelling case, based on numerous contemporary records, that Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

Ian Goddard

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Dec 1, 2022, 7:31:48 AM12/1/22
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On 01/12/2022 07:13, Shawn Potter wrote:
> it is unlikely that a single family would include three children (two living at the same time) all bearing the same name
I don't know if there was a previous, deceased Richard in the family but
Kirkburton PRs record a baptism in 1744 of two Richards (Storth IIRC)
"they being twindles".
Message has been deleted

Shawn Potter

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Dec 1, 2022, 9:45:58 AM12/1/22
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A Kettle account of "twindles" does have a nice ring to it. ;) Yet chronology presents a problem for that explanation. We estimate that Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas, was born about 1513 in light of several life events, including his completion of a Bachelor of Civil Law degree at the University of Oxford on 17 Feb 1532/3, and our discovery, analysis, and illustration of a 16 Sep 1534 deed from Richard Weston of Brereton, brother of John Weston of Lichfield (called of Rugeley in the deed), to that Richard's nephew, also named Richard, who we ultimately conclude was later Justice of the Common Pleas. For a complete account of all this see Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022), 32-37 and 123-124. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Andrew Z

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Dec 1, 2022, 1:41:15 PM12/1/22
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Hi Shawn,

Thank you for all of your work and research. I've read your book with great interest: you certainly summarize the available documentary evidence well and help build a case for the pedigree to be authentic. I also appreciated you elaborating on the Kettle document, that was one of my main questions after reading your book.

During my research into the Hockmore family, I was alerted to a lineage that I didn't initially explore:

Honora Hele and Sir Gregory Hockmore
Elizabeth Elwes and Sir Thomas Hele
Susanah Dyott and Edward Elwes
Joan Dyott and Richard Cresswell
Catherine Weston and John Dyott

I was gratified to see Richard Cresswell's marriage to Joan Dyott in the Weston pedigree, along with reference to Edward Elwes (a merchant in London) in the letter from Dr. John Weston.

One comment that I have is in regard to the Church Wall Monument with the impaled Neville arms: it appears that the Westons of Lichfield used "ermine, on a chief azure five bezants" as their coat of arms, which was later supplanted by an "argent an eagle displayed sable" that we see in the Weston pedigree.

The seal of John Weston of Lichfield shows ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with martlet for difference.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=CDI9AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA508#v=onepage&q&f=false

This seal and arms descended to Dr. John Weston, Canon of Christchurch
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Oxford_Historical_Society/cL9CAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA80&printsec=frontcover

"For the arms of Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland...is a shield bearing the arms of Weston impaling those of his wife, Alice Jennings, ermine, a martlet gules on a chief azure, four [sic.] bezants for Weston impaling sable, a chevron or between three bezants, on a chief azure, for Jennings."
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/37WN4EU-PyA/m/U8BV-D6pSiwJ

Richard Weston's (Judge of the Common Please) arms on his tomb are the same:
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Essex_Archaeological/u5cWAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA57&printsec=frontcover

John Weston of Lichfield's granddaughter's (Joan Dyott) monument displays the same arms.
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_History_of_the_Parish_of_Tettenhall_in/N__lAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA252&printsec=frontcover

Simon Weston has the same arms under the doubtful arms of Staffordshire
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Collections_for_a_History_of_Staffordshi/LkrQAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=RA2-PA29&printsec=frontcover

This leads me to believe that the impaled Neville arms displayed on the Church Wall Memorial are a later embellishment since these arms are symmetrical to the impaled Ridgeway arms that would have been added after the marriage of Sir Simon Weston's daughter to the 2nd Earl Londonderry (possibly around 1619), but before the Weston pedigree was published in 1633 (with this memorial examined/sketched by the heralds). However, it is also true that we have no written record of these impaled Neville arms being challenged by the contemporary parishioners of that church.

Again, thank you for all your work.

Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 1, 2022, 5:01:32 PM12/1/22
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On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 1:41:15 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:

> This leads me to believe that the impaled Neville arms displayed on the Church Wall Memorial are a later embellishment since these arms are symmetrical to the impaled Ridgeway arms that would have been added after the marriage of Sir Simon Weston's daughter to the 2nd Earl Londonderry (possibly around 1619), but before the Weston pedigree was published in 1633 (with this memorial examined/sketched by the heralds). However, it is also true that we have no written record of these impaled Neville arms being challenged by the contemporary parishioners of that church.
>
> Again, thank you for all your work.
>
> Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for your kind words about our work. We appreciate your nice review; and we are glad that Dr. John Weston’s letter which names his near relatives, along with other contemporary documents in our book, were useful in your research on the Hockmore family.

We do not agree with the suggestion that the Neville arms impaling Weston arms on the Church Wall Monument is a later embellishment. You are correct that various members of the Weston family of Staffordshire bore arms consisting of ermine on a chief azure five bezants. However, they also bore, from earliest times, arms consisting of argent an eagle displayed sable. In some instances these two forms of Weston arms were displayed together and in other instances one or the other was displayed singly.

For example, see Stebbing Shaw’s 1801 description of the Weston arms on another Church Wall Monument, in this case memorializing John Weston of Lichfield’s nephew, one-time-removed, Richard Weston of Rugeley, who died 29 Mar 1613. Shaw writes: “In the same chapel on the North wall, is a monument of white marble, at the top having the arms of Weston quarterly 1 and 4, viz. ‘Or. a spread eagle, Sable and label of three points.’ 2d. ‘Ermine on a chief Az. 5 bezants.’ 3d. The arms of Ford as above described. On one side is the coat of Weston singly, and on the other Weston impaled with Kniveton, viz. ‘Gu. a Chevron vairy Arg. and Sable.’” We include an image of a sketch of this monument in Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022), 28-29. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/ The sketch shows quartered arms argent an eagle displayed sable and ermine on a chief azure five bezants above, and an eagle displayed sable singly below.

Furthermore, this Richard Weston of Rugeley’s son, Ralph Weston of Rugeley, who died before his father on 16 Jul 1605, bore arms containing argent an eagle displayed sable and ermine on a chief azure five bezants. For a discussion, and image of a sketch, of this monument see our book pages 29-30.

Other Rugeley and Lichfield Westons during this era also bore both arms (argent an eagle displayed sable and ermine on a chief azure five bezants). See the arms of Richard Weston, Knt., 1st Earl of Portland; James Weston, Knt., Baron of the Exchequer; and Richard Weston, Knt., of Rugeley, Baron of the Exchequer, in all three copies of the Weston pedigree cited in our book.

Also of note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. And this website contains an image of a stained glass window at St. Andrews’ Church at Weston Park, Staffordshire, which depicts Hugo de Weston – ancestor of the Westons of Rugeley and Lichfield – including his arms argent an eagle displayed sable. https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~fordingtondorset/genealogy/Files/JohnBall1574.html
A faithful sketch of this stained glass window is including in all three copies of the Weston pedigree cited in our book.

So, the form of Weston arms in the Neville arms impaling Weston arms on the Church Wall Monument does not suggest a later embellishment. Furthermore, considering the numerous contemporary records that support the Weston pedigree statement that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, there appears to be no reason for someone to engage in a later embellishment. And, as you note, there is no record of an objection by contemporary parishioners to the monument’s display of Neville arms impaling Weston arms.

Shawn

Shawn Potter

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Dec 1, 2022, 7:38:50 PM12/1/22
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On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 5:01:32 PM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> Also of note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. And this website contains an image of a stained glass window at St. Andrews’ Church at Weston Park, Staffordshire, which depicts Hugo de Weston – ancestor of the Westons of Rugeley and Lichfield – including his arms argent an eagle displayed sable. https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~fordingtondorset/genealogy/Files/JohnBall1574.html
> A faithful sketch of this stained glass window is including in all three copies of the Weston pedigree cited in our book.
>
> So, the form of Weston arms in the Neville arms impaling Weston arms on the Church Wall Monument does not suggest a later embellishment. Furthermore, considering the numerous contemporary records that support the Weston pedigree statement that the mother of Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland, there appears to be no reason for someone to engage in a later embellishment. And, as you note, there is no record of an objection by contemporary parishioners to the monument’s display of Neville arms impaling Weston arms.
>
> Shawn

Another example of early Weston use of the arms argent an eagle displayed sable is found with the effigies of Sir Hamo de Weston and Sir Hugo de Weston at St. Andrews' Church. Photographs of the effigies, with a description of their arms, are here https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/wm10QQV_de_Weston_effigies_St_Andrew_Weston_under_Lizard_Staffordshire

All three surviving copies of the Weston pedigree include faithful sketches of both effigies with these arms.

Shawn

Andrew Z

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Dec 2, 2022, 11:08:22 AM12/2/22
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Hi Shawn,

Thank you for your quick and detailed response, your knowledge and immediate recall of subject matter, as well as the related documents is very impressive.

I thought about commenting in my original post about Richard Weston of Rugeley's church wall memorial and its prominent display of the eagle arms. According to this source cited earlier, "Lord Weston was created Earl of Portland in 1632, and after the investigations which led to the compilation by Sir William Segar, Garter King of Arms, of the “ Westonorum antiquissime et equestris Familiae Genealogia,” the more ancient bearing of the eagle was placed in the first quarter, and at the funeral of the Earl his escutcheon bore, 1st and 8th, Or, an eagle displayed regardant sable (Weston); 2nd, Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants (Weston)." https://books.google.ca/books?id=CDI9AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA508#v=onepage&q&f=false

I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms. For example, the Westons of Sutton Palace also used the ermine, on a chief azure five bezants arms and in one of the images of the pedigree, we can see the similar arms for Maria Weston, daughter of William Weston, Esq. of Kent, mother of Anne Weston (wife of Nicholas Bacon).

At the same time, since John Weston's seal and three sons bore the "ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with martlet for difference" arms (if we infer that the doubtful arms of Simon Weston in 1580s were actually his father's, James Weston's), it is not clear to me if John Weston and his sons adopted the eagle arms in the 1500s; if they didn't, then the impaled Neville arms would have been commissioned later. However, I also note the "ermine, on a chief azure five bezants" arms displayed prominently on the Church Wall Memorial referenced in your book. It's a minor point, but since I have an amateur's interest in heraldry, I was curious to learn more about it.

Lastly, I noticed that as the result of your book, Wikitree was updated to change Ceclia's status as the daughter of Ralph Neville from uncertain to confident and that there's also a new research notes page in support of this: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston

All the best,

Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 3:24:50 PM12/2/22
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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:08:22 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> I completely agree with you that "eagle displayed sable" was associated with the Weston family since at least Sir Hamo de Weston (d.1189); it'd be great to understand (if that's even possible) which family branches adopted which arms....

Hi Andrew,

Thank you again for your kind words and your good questions and comments. My wife and I are grateful to you.

To once more summarize, as you mentioned, your source, on page 508, notes: “The earliest armorial bearings of the Westons of Weston-under-Lyzard was an eagle displayed, and seals prove that this eagle was frequently regardant.” And, as I mentioned in my earlier note, the Weston pedigree includes numerous sketches of seals on family documents bearing arms argent an eagle displayed sable. These seals, with their arms, illustrate that the Weston families of Rugeley and Lichfield were entitled to, and did, display the arms argent an eagle displayed sable from the time of Sir Hamo de Weston, generation after generation, to the time of the publication of the Weston pedigree. This was not a recent development connected with the publication of the Weston pedigree.

In light of this, one wonders how Waters could have written: “[Justice Weston] bore Ermine, on a chief azure five bezants, with a martlet for difference…. They are wholly different from the arms of the Westons of Rugeley, which were Or, an eagle displayed regardant sable; but it is significant that when the pedigree of 1632 was compiled, Lord Weston assumed the coat of the eagle, and in the same year Segar granted both coats to Richard Weston of Rugeley and his cousins at Lichfield.” See Robert Edmond Chester Waters, Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1:95. Waters tried to cite heraldic evidence in support of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication. Yet an examination of the records reveals that his assertion is without merit.

For those who want to know more about the Weston pedigree controversy, we address the assertion of fabrication by Waters – and examine Weston pedigree documentation as well as independent contemporary records – in our book Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

By the way, final resolution of this controversy should be of special interest to the estimated five million Americans who trace their ancestries to Weston family immigrants Jeremy Clarke and Frances Latham of Newport, Rhode Island; Elizabeth Cooke and Rev. William Walton of Marblehead, Massachusetts; and Stephen Terry and Jane Hardey of Dorchester, Massachusetts.

Shawn

ps bumppo

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Dec 2, 2022, 5:01:07 PM12/2/22
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Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia Neville-John Weston connection. As it is my same great grandmother who is my James Cudworth connection (for those familiar with that morass of, seemingly never to be rectified, questions) who is also descended from William Walton, I feel closer to my third proven Royal lineage from here in Plymouth County (Edmund Hawes and Edward Raynsford are my first two). I won't tell you how many Mayflower lines I have proven:-), but in my retirement I have moved on to Royal/Charlemagne lines. Proving 20-30 generations is so much more difficult that my typically 10-12 from The Mayflower. I also have a strong George Morton heritage so am following with interest the Morton of Bawtry line on this great board, also.

Great fun, Thanks again Shawn, and to all who are making such great observations and citing of sources.

Paul Bumpus

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 5:31:28 PM12/2/22
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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:01:07 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here ....

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your kind words. My wife and I appreciate your encouragement. Since you mentioned your royal lines, you may be interested in the Clarke, Terry, and Walton royal lines in Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022), 129-130. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/ And you may enjoy the lists of additional Weston royal descents, including from Charlemagne, in the appendices.

Shawn

CLARKE DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (to Ed. III)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Richard Weston, Justice of the Common Pleas = Weburgh Catesby
10. Sir Jerome Weston of Roxwell = Mary Cave
11. Mary Weston = William Clarke of East Farleigh
12. Jeremy Clarke of Newport, RI = Frances Latham

TERRY DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (to Ed. III)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
10. Isabel Ball = John White of Stanton
11. Mary White = Rev. John Terry of Stockton
12. Stephen Terry of Dorchester, MA = Jane Hardey

WALTON DESCENT FROM EDWARD III, KING OF ENGLAND

1. Edward III, King of England = Philippe of Hainault
2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
3. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
4. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford (to Ed. III)
5. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
6. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Isabel Booth
7. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Edith Sandys
8. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield
9. Alice Weston = John Ball of Lichfield
10. Isabel Ball = John White of Stanton
11. Martha White = Rev. William Cooke of Crediton
12. Elizabeth Cooke = Rev. William Walton of Marblehead, MA

Will Johnson

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Dec 2, 2022, 6:45:20 PM12/2/22
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In your above Susanah Dyott, should be Susannah (or Susan) CRESSWELL

John Dyott by his wife Catherine Weston were the parents of Joan who died exactly 19 Oct 1590

Burke's Landed Gentry, calls this Catherine daughter of John Weston of Lichfield

I do have such a person in my database as the father of at least six children, I don't have a Catherine among those
But could it be the same man who married Cecily Neville ?
And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 7:16:05 PM12/2/22
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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:45:20 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> And if so, does someone have a specific reference to show this Catherine as a daughter of that John ?

Hi Will,

Thank you for your good question. We include Catherine Weston, daughter of Cecily Neville and John Weston of Lichfield, who married John Dyott of Lichfield, citing reliable sources for each statement, on page 126. We do not include Catherine’s descendants.

I hope this helps.

Shawn

Andrew Z

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Dec 2, 2022, 7:30:05 PM12/2/22
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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 6:45:20 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Will,

You're right, it should logically read Susannah Cresswell, that was a typo on my part.

Catherine Weston/Dyott is found in the Weston pedigree as a daughter of John of Lichfield; additionally, Joan Dyott is specifically mentioned as wife of Richard Cresswell. Impaled Dyott and Cresswell arms are present as well.

Shawn writes in his Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms book:
"The Weston pedigree shows Cecily Neville to be the mother of all John Weston’s children"
"For the parents of Catherine Weston in a genealogical tree see Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633"
Additional sources are cited for Catherine Weston in her Genealogical Summary part of the book.

Lastly, these pedigrees also show Catherine Weston/Dyott as daughter of John of Lichfield:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gfwcAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA118&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&d&pg=PA232&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Survey_of_Staffordshire/DEgJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA136-IA4&printsec=frontcover
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Dyott_s_Diary_1781_1845/U-9MAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT1&printsec=frontcover

All the best,

Andrew

Will Johnson

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Dec 2, 2022, 8:59:46 PM12/2/22
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Thanks for that
However my question isn't whether or not she is called daughter of John Weston of Lichfield
But whether it was this particular John Weston of Lichfield
The one who married Cecily Neville
Knowing that there is more than one man called John Weston of Lichfield

Will Johnson

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Dec 2, 2022, 9:08:32 PM12/2/22
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I know that many sources follow a certain specific statement made but we also have to reconcile

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

The arms of Lady Tichborne are *wholely different* from the Weston's of Rugeley
And I follow this will for
William /Weston/ of London; mercer; of Prested Hall in Feering, co Essex (as Lord)
that John was his son

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 9:58:45 PM12/2/22
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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 9:08:32 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> I know that many sources follow a certain specific statement made but we also have to reconcile
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

Hi Will,

Thank you again for your question. The sources that we cite for Catherine Weston, wife of John Dyott, make it clear that she was a daughter of Cecily Neville and John Weston of Lichfield -- subjects of the Weston pedigree. One source that we cite, and illustrate, is a letter from Catherine's nephew, John Weston, Doctor of Civil Law and Canon of Christ Church, University of Oxford, which names his near relatives, including Catherine and her husband. I truly sympathize with your desire to reconcile the many perplexing statements by Waters. In fact, this was the motivation behind our book. We demonstrate, through careful analysis, that the statements by Waters about the Weston pedigree were without merit; and we present contemporary records that confirm key statements in the Weston pedigree -- especially the fraternal relationship between Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston, and the identity of their mother, Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. The best way to fully understand our work and evaluate our conclusions is to read our book.

Shawn

Andrew Z

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Dec 2, 2022, 9:58:50 PM12/2/22
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Hi Will,

That was my question too when I first started looking at this line, but the original pedigree manuscript makes it clear that Catherine Weston is the daughter of John Weston and Cecily Neville. In Shawn's books, there are two images of the pedigree that show Catherine Weston. One shows her to be the sister of Robert Weston, Chancellor of Ireland and her daughter marrying John Dyott and her granddaughter marrying Richard Cresswell. The other image lists her with her siblings (including Robert Weston, Richard Weston, James Weston and Alice Ball), with a single branch leading to their parents, which is unfortunately cut off (although the book makes it clear that the parents were John Lichfield and Cecily Neville).

Perhaps Shawn could confirm the parents at the end of the branch found in Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 15?

Additionally, there is an image of a letter written by Dr. John Weston, which lists his grandfather's (John Weston of Lichfield) children, including Judge Richard Weston and Robert Weston, Chancellor of Ireland. At the end of the letter, he writes "An other daughter Katherine Weston married Mr. Diott of Lichfield, of who she had sonnes and daughters...Ione Diott married Mr. Cressy [presumably Cresswell], who had a daughter [Susanah Cresswell] married to Sir John Curson yet living near Oxon. The said lady Curson had a former husband a Merchant in London [Edward Elwes], but I knowe not his name."

Also, HOP has Catherine Weston's brother's (Robert Weston) parents as "John Weston of Weeford, Staffs. by Cecily, da. of Ralph Neville and sis. of Ralph, 4th Earl of Westmorland"
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/weston-robert-1522-73

All the best,

Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 2, 2022, 11:07:55 PM12/2/22
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On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 9:58:50 PM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> Perhaps Shawn could confirm the parents at the end of the branch found in Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 15?

Hi Andrew,

As you mentioned, on page 54 of our book, we illustrate Weston-Cave Heraldic Pedigrees by William Segar, Knt., Garter King of Arms, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 18667, folio 25 verso, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, UK.

As you requested, we looked at folio 25 recto of the above manuscript, and note that the line continues for one more generation below Antonius Dyot to his son “Richardus Dyot Armiger filius et hares duxit in uxorem Dorotheam filiae et her. Richi Doington.” But this copy of the Weston pedigree does not continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, on folio 25 recto.

However, the second copy of the Weston Pedigree, Illuminated Genealogy of the Family of Weston of Weston-under-Lizard, co. Stafford, 25 Nov 1633, Add. 74251A, folio 19 recto, The British Library Manuscript Department, Boston Spa, Wetherby, West Yorkshire, UK, does continue the line of Joan Dyott and her husband, Richard Creswell, for another generation to – “Suzana Cresswell nupta 1o Edwardo Elwes de London Armigero demde renupta Johi Curzon militi.”

Andrew Z

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Dec 3, 2022, 6:58:10 AM12/3/22
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Hi Shawn,

Thank you so much to you and your wife for doing and summarizing this research; your access to and knowledge of the Weston pedigrees is a very valuable resource. I really appreciated you examining the manuscript and finding information about Suzana Cresswell and her husbands - that's an amazing find.

On that note, I think this example serves to illustrate the thoroughness, scope and accuracy of the authors of the pedigree, since they accurately recorded the marriages of Catherine Weston's daughter and granddaughter - a less illustrious maternal line. Dr. John Weston didn't specify Suzana's name, nor could he recall the name of Edward Elwes. Suzana's second marriage to Sir John Curzon created confusion in such usually relatively credible sources (not to mention various other pedigrees) as Vivan's Visitations of County of Devon (where her daughter Elizabeth is listed as daughter of Curzon, her stepfather) and Cockayne's Complete Baronetage, where it says that Sir Thomas Hele "m, secondly, 16 July 1632, at Kensington, Elizabeth, da. of Edward Elwayes. He is also said to have m. Elizabeth, da, of (— ) Curson, of Oxon"

HOP correctly has Elizabeth as the daughter of Edward Elwes:
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/hele-sir-thomas-1595-1670

Again, thank you for all your work and quick responses!

Have a great weekend,
Andrew

Shawn Potter

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Dec 3, 2022, 1:10:36 PM12/3/22
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On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 6:58:10 AM UTC-5, Andrew Z wrote:
> On that note, I think this example serves to illustrate the thoroughness, scope and accuracy of the authors of the pedigree, since they accurately recorded the marriages of Catherine Weston's daughter and granddaughter - a less illustrious maternal line. Dr. John Weston didn't specify Suzana's name, nor could he recall the name of Edward Elwes. Suzana's second marriage to Sir John Curzon created confusion in such usually relatively credible sources (not to mention various other pedigrees) as Vivan's Visitations of County of Devon (where her daughter Elizabeth is listed as daughter of Curzon, her stepfather) and Cockayne's Complete Baronetage, where it says that Sir Thomas Hele "m, secondly, 16 July 1632, at Kensington, Elizabeth, da. of Edward Elwayes. He is also said to have m. Elizabeth, da, of (— ) Curson, of Oxon"

Hi Andrew,

Thank you again for your kind words. We agree with your perceptive observation regarding the implication of the Weston pedigree’s inclusion of information about this less illustrious line.

The collection of supporting documents that the heralds assembled from multiple family archives truly does inspire confidence in their work. And, as we explain and illustrate in our book, our comparisons between original manuscripts and independent sources consistently demonstrated the reliability of the Weston pedigree.

Best always,
Shawn

Shawn Potter

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Dec 4, 2022, 9:22:44 AM12/4/22
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Why did he do it?

My wife and I demonstrate in Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/) that Robert Edmond Chester Waters falsely claimed that the Weston pedigree published by the College of Arms in 1633 was a fabrication. Was Waters merely mistaken about every one of his five arguments in support of his claim? If so, one wonders how a genealogist with his reputation could have made such a series of mistakes. Some of his statements about the pedigree suggest that he never saw the original records. Was he relying on the work of others? Was he himself deceived? Or was his allegation of fraud, which so many people accepted for some 250 years, something more sinister? We did not address this question in our book.

However, it is interesting to note that Waters first, to our knowledge, alleged that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication in 1872, writing under the anagram TEWARS (see footnote 2 in our chapter entitled Rise of Skepticism). This was six years before he made his allegation, writing in true name, in Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley.

Perhaps equally vexing for us is the question, why did so many people believe his assertions for so many years, until we published our discoveries on soc.genealogy.medieval in 2011, and more recently in our book. It seems likely to us that most people were unable to examine the Weston pedigree and related contemporary records for themselves and simply trusted the claims by Waters. Still, one wonders.

Shawn

Will Johnson

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Dec 5, 2022, 2:42:58 PM12/5/22
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I have now added Catherine As a daughter to Cecily Neville
This makes Catherine a Cecil 7, but more importantly for most she is an E3#8, eight generations from Edward III
Which of course improves the lines for all her descendants, formally some of whom, only had the poorer E1 descent

Johnny Brananas

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Dec 5, 2022, 5:57:22 PM12/5/22
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"In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...

...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.

William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcover

Will Johnson

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Dec 5, 2022, 6:50:35 PM12/5/22
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This James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)

His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
They also had an eldest son
Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577

See

Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of
Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),
497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James
Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas
Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's
Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a
Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael
Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
91. ...... i)

Shawn Potter

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Dec 5, 2022, 6:53:00 PM12/5/22
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On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 5:57:22 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> "In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...

Hi Johnny,

Thank you for your observation. We ordered and carefully examined this manuscript in 2011. It is a single page, with no information about the informant, the herald who sketched the line, or the date of creation. It is associated with no supporting evidence. So it is impossible to assess its credibility, especially where it deviates from other well-documented records. It shows brothers Thomas Weston and John Weston, sons of William Weston of Prested Hall, as husbands successively of ... daughter of Neville, Lord Abergavenny, and one or the other couple -- or perhaps both couples (the lines are indistinctly drawn) as the parents of Edmund Weston; Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland; James Weston of Lichfield; Richard Weston; and Christopher Weston. When we compared this single unsourced document with the Weston pedigree, which is supported by more than 200 pages of contemporary records -- including deeds, testimony from near relatives, and church monuments, we concluded that this document is in error.

Shawn

Will Johnson

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Dec 5, 2022, 6:53:16 PM12/5/22
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Sir Symon Weston
Symon /Weston/ of Lichfield, co Staf -1598-; esq -1598-; Knt; MP 1624-6; W
married Mary Lloyd and had a daughter and heiress Elizabeth
who marreid
Robert Ridgway, Knt 1608; 2nd Earl of /Londonderry/ 1631-


Which adds an E3 descent for these Earls of Londonderry which I had not previously had

Will Johnson

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Dec 5, 2022, 7:03:39 PM12/5/22
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Shawn Potter

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Dec 5, 2022, 7:15:36 PM12/5/22
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On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:03:39 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> The will of this James Weston is abstracted here
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

A digital image of the whole will is available through online download for a small fee. We make multiple references to his will in our book. Will of James Weston, Lichfield, co. Stafford, England, dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589, Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, PROB 11/73, The National Archives, London, UK.

Shawn Potter

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Dec 7, 2022, 11:23:02 AM12/7/22
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When my wife and I first read the argument by Waters in support of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication, we were startled by his following statement. “I subjoin an abstract of the Wills of Robert and James Weston to show that they omit all notice of Richard Weston the Judge, and his children, and of his sister Mrs. Slade, and her children; whilst Richard in his Will (p. 85 [sic. 87-88]) is equally silent about his supposed brothers and sisters.” See Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley, Their Ancestors and Descendants (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1: 94. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/OaxCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22i+subjoin+an+abstract+of+the+wills%22&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

We wondered why a reputable genealogist and barrister would suggest that the absence of the name of a testator’s brother in his will was evidence that the testator and his unnamed brother were not brothers. There was, and is, no requirement for testators to name brothers in their wills. Sir William Blackstone explained that, from before the Conquest until recent times, a widow was entitled to one third of her husband’s estate, children were entitled to one third of their father’s estate, and the testator could dispose of one third of his estate as he chose. Blackstone goes on to say that, during the 17th and early 18th centuries, laws were enacted throughout the realm that allowed testators to dispose of all their personal estates by will. See William Blackstone, Knt., Commentaries on the Laws of England (London: A. Strahan, 1825), 2: 491-493. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_England/dlQUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=wills

We also wondered why so many people accepted, and continue to repeat, such a meritless argument. We have no answer for this, or for the previous, question.

This observation led to our decision to examine all of Waters’ arguments in detail and review the Weston pedigree documentation and independent records for ourselves. As our project progressed, we were surprised to discover that none of Waters’ arguments are persuasive, and documents that accompany the pedigree, together with independent records, support the two statements in the Weston pedigree that Waters singled out for criticism – that Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn Potter

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Dec 7, 2022, 4:33:48 PM12/7/22
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On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.

28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois
9. Jeanne de Valois = William III, Graaf van Holland
8. Philippa of Hainault = Edward III, King of England
7. John “of Gaunt,” Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
6. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
5. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford
4. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
3. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Margaret Booth
2. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Elizabeth Sandys
1. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield

Leslie Mahler

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Dec 8, 2022, 1:15:49 AM12/8/22