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William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
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Jim Weber
Apr 25, 2012, 5:02:05 PM4/25/12
to
Dear Newsgroup,
"The Beaumonts in History" by Edward Beaumont, 1929, states the
following:
There is at Drayton Norfolk, an old memorial or market cross, the
inscription is now illegible, but in 1809 some portions remained which
read:
"VOUS CHE PRIE PUR L'AN WILLIAM DE BELLEMONT
..... JOHANNE SA FEMME .... PATER N: ... AVE
MARIA ... DE PARDON AVERA"
(Blomefield's NORFOLK, X. 413).
Blomefield confirms the text (in French), but does not mention the
date 1809 when it was legible.
This places William de Beaumont & his wife Joan in Drayton. Since
there were only 3 generations of Beaumonts connected with Drayton:
1 William de Beaumont & Alice de Drayton
2.William de Beaumont & Alice (l'Strange?)
3.Godfrey (dsp) & his bro. John Beaumont & Alice
According to Blomefield's treatise on Drayton,
vol X, p. 409-13, Alice, widow of John conveyed Drayton to Walter de
Langton, Bishop of Litchfield & Coventry in 33 Edw I (1304/5).
Edward Beaumont in "Beaumonts in History" stated that #2 William m.
Alice, dau. of Ralph l'Strange, but gave no source.
While it is possible that #2 William was married to a Joan, it is also
seems possible that #1 William was married to 1) Joan de Barsham, 2)
Alice de Drayton, & 3) Muriel de Langetot. In order to conform to the
excellent posts by John Watson in 2010 and 2011 (as well as earlier
posts by Rosie Bevans), the above William may have had a son named
William by both his 1st and 2nd wives. The elder William would have
inherited both his father's & mother's estates, while the younger
William would have inherited only from Alice de Drayton.
I would certainly welcome any comments about either of the
possibilites.
Jim Weber
"The Beaumonts in History" by Edward Beaumont, 1929, states the
following:
There is at Drayton Norfolk, an old memorial or market cross, the
inscription is now illegible, but in 1809 some portions remained which
read:
"VOUS CHE PRIE PUR L'AN WILLIAM DE BELLEMONT
..... JOHANNE SA FEMME .... PATER N: ... AVE
MARIA ... DE PARDON AVERA"
(Blomefield's NORFOLK, X. 413).
Blomefield confirms the text (in French), but does not mention the
date 1809 when it was legible.
This places William de Beaumont & his wife Joan in Drayton. Since
there were only 3 generations of Beaumonts connected with Drayton:
1 William de Beaumont & Alice de Drayton
2.William de Beaumont & Alice (l'Strange?)
3.Godfrey (dsp) & his bro. John Beaumont & Alice
According to Blomefield's treatise on Drayton,
vol X, p. 409-13, Alice, widow of John conveyed Drayton to Walter de
Langton, Bishop of Litchfield & Coventry in 33 Edw I (1304/5).
Edward Beaumont in "Beaumonts in History" stated that #2 William m.
Alice, dau. of Ralph l'Strange, but gave no source.
While it is possible that #2 William was married to a Joan, it is also
seems possible that #1 William was married to 1) Joan de Barsham, 2)
Alice de Drayton, & 3) Muriel de Langetot. In order to conform to the
excellent posts by John Watson in 2010 and 2011 (as well as earlier
posts by Rosie Bevans), the above William may have had a son named
William by both his 1st and 2nd wives. The elder William would have
inherited both his father's & mother's estates, while the younger
William would have inherited only from Alice de Drayton.
I would certainly welcome any comments about either of the
possibilites.
Jim Weber
TJ Booth
Apr 27, 2012, 1:21:19 PM4/27/12
to GenMedieval
Jim,
I also have an interest in the Beaumonts of Crossland (a Wentworth
ancestor), and therefore have close familiarity with the Edward Beaumont
book ('EB'). Please be aware that EB lacks the quality of documentation this
newsgroup expects, and a great many entries demand independent verification.
It is very unreliable in the early generations, one problem being - as
here - it confuses different family lines.
When John Watson posted information about a year ago regarding the identity
of Lucy Pigot (dau of Alice de Bellomonte, gr-dau of William de Bellomonte),
I got involved in the exchange along with Will. Afterwards I did more work
intending to share it, but other things came along. Your post sparked a
renewed interest in at least posting a summary of the later research before
going on holiday, since the myth of a Crossland Drayton connection must be
destroyed. I apologize that some underlying citations are in the unposted
unfinished draft but I don't want to spend the time to clean it up before
getting on the airplane. Being away, I also can't respond to many questions
the next 2 weeks. In the meantime, hopefully John Watson, Will and others
will have fun criticizing its errors and providing corrections.
For starters, there are 2 separate Beaumont lines involved, and each of them
started out as a Bellomonte but for different reasons. EB's work focused on
the Yorkshire Bellomonte/ Beaumont line, but as with Beaumont of Drayton it
mixed in other family lines, and as here mangled the identities of marriage
partners and children. There is not only NO evidence beyond a shared last
name to link William of Drayton with the Yorkshire Beaumonts, but
substantial evidence to disprove it. The likely origin of the Bellomonte/
Beaumonts of Crossland - perhaps earlier known as de Bretton - is better
traced in ML Faull and SA Morehouse; West Yorkshire Archaeological Survey to
1500; Vol 2: Administrative and Tenurial Framework [1981]. It is an
invaluable source for West Yorkshire property transactions between Domesday
and 1500, and cites many more sources than Dodsworth's Yorkshire Deeds
(which it also cites). It is too recent to be online. I had also worked on a
separate writeup on the origins and early generations of that line, and may
try to post it when I get back if there is time.
John Watson's excellent posts last year primarily addressed the
Bellomonte/Beaumont family of Fulking, Sussex - who were also of Gedney,
Lincolnshire.[1] Based primarily on records suggesting that William II's
heirs were his 3 daus by Alicia d'Oyri, and lacking further evidence, the
view at that time was that William of Fulking, Essex was "not the same
person as William de Beaumont of Drayton as alleged by Blomfield." [2] As
noted further below, there is now additional evidence that I believe
establishes that William of Drayton should be conflated with William of
Fulking and Gedney. It also resolves a puzzle first raised by Rosie Bevan in
2002 or 2003.
The still valid pedigree for Bellomonte/Beaumont of Fulking and Gedney
presented by Watson was essentially the following, to which some dates are
added (some perhaps from subsequently found sources) :
Gen 1. William I de Bellomonte of East Barsham, d. abt 1208, m (1) abt
1184, Joan de Barsham d. bef 1199; m (2) bef 1200 Muriel Langetot. William I
had 1 son, William II whose mother was likely Joan, but there was no issue
by Muriel.
Gen 2. William II de Bellomonte b. say 1185, d. bef 1245, m (1) say 1205
as her 2nd husband, Alicia de Oyri of Gedney Lincolnshire, d. bef 1245.
Alicia was dau of Fulk d'Oyri and wife Maud le Strange co-heir of her father
Sir Ralph; Alicia and sisters Ela (m. Robert Constable of Halsham) and
Ermecina (m. Ralph of Goxhill) were co-heirs of their brother Walter.
Alicia's 1st husband was John Belet dsp abt 1204. William II and Alicia de
Oyri had 3 daus, Joan, Alice and Ela [birth order unknown].
Gen 3.1. Joan de Bellomonte b. say 1208 m. Reyner De Burgh of Congeham
Norfolkshire. They had a son, Nicholas, who dsp bef 2 Jul 1297
Gen 3.2. Alice de Bellomonte b. say 1210 m. Warin FitzHugh. They had a
dau Lucy who m. John Picot of Doddington Cambridgeshire.
Gen 3.3. Ela de Beaumont b. say 1212 m. Hervey de Stanhou.
As you note, this family line was reviewed a number of other times on SGM.
Posts by Rosie Bevan in 2002/03 discussed some of the Drayton family, at
times identified as of Witnesham, Suffolk (a location noted below as better
associated with John Spring). A key document noted and discussed by her was
the 1315 IPM for 'Alice de Beaumont',[3] whose two daughters and heirs m.
John de Dagworth [noted in old MCA p. 256 sub Dagworth] and John de Belhous
[ancestor of Margaret Castelayn in old MCA p.476 sub Knyvet]. Douglas
Richardson and others have a number of SGM posts regarding Dagworth and
Belhouse. Alice de Beaumont could not be definitively linked in 2003 to this
or a different Beaumont line because of the then unexplainable absence of
her husband's son Richard in her 1315 IPM - Bishop Walter Langford instead
held Drayton at that time. There were also 2006 posts by Douglas Richardson
about 'Hubert de Burgh's brother, Sir Thomas de Burgh' who m. Nesta de
Cokefield dau of Adam de Cokefield. The Cokefields are a close Drayton
relation, since Adam de Cokefield's sister Gunnora m. William de Drayton
whose 2 daus were his co-heirs.
Documentation has now been found that suggests some additions to the above
pedigree. The clearest link between the Fulking/Gedney and Drayton lines is
found in a 1297 record that states that John (younger son of William II of
Drayton) was "kinsman and heir" to a 1/3 share of rents held by Reyner de
Burgh's son Nicholas (mentioned in 3.1 above) including Grymeston.[3] There
was also a 1306/07 fine involving Grimeston between John's son Richard, and
Bishop Walter de Langston.[4] This would seem best interpreted as indicating
that the 3 daus of William of Fulking were heirs of their mother, but not of
their father. Curiously, the memorial monument you note also suggests that
the Fulking/Gedney and Drayton Williams should be conflated, if one assumes
the mother of William II of Drayton was Joan (de Barsham).
The suggested pedigree additions are :
Gen 2. William II m. (2), Alicia de Drayton, co-heir of her father William
and his wife Gunnora de Cokefield (the other co-heir was Agnes, who had
Scarning by a 1229/30 fine with 'William Lanveisey' her huband). Alicia was
the widow of Gervase de Bradfield, lord of Drayton in 1229/30, who must have
dsp soon thereafter. William II and Alicia had 2 sons, Godfrey and John.
Gen 3.1. Godfrey de Bellomonte of Drayton, heir of his father, adult by
1272/73, d. abt Sep 1293, m.(1) Cecilia de Ferrers, who dsp bef 28 Jul 1290;
m.(2) Eleanor NN, who dsp aft 8 May 1294. His heir was his younger brother,
John.
Gen 3.2. John de Bellomonte of Drayton, d. bef 24 Sep 1298, m.(1) NN, who
likely d. bef 1290; m.(2) aft 13 Jun 1290 Alice Hardel of Rayleigh Essex,
who d. aft 4 Feb 1314/15 and bef 10 Mar 1314/15. Alice Hardel was the widow
of William Fitz Warin valet to Edw I, who d. bef 19 Nov 1285,[6] by whom she
had at least 1 dau, Alice, m. to John de Dagworth. Alice m.(3) by license
dated 21 Aug 1301, John Spring of Witnesham, by whom she had no issue. One
of Alice's properties in the 1315 IPM was Rayleigh, first granted her father
by de Burgh, in 1303 was held by John Spring and his wife Alicia de Bello
Monte, and also by William de Haverge who had m. Alice's sister Alina/Helen,
they being the co-heirs of John Hardel.[7] John had 1 son, Richard, by his
first wife, and 1 dau, Isolda, by his second wife Alice.
Gen 4.1. Richard de Bellomonte, heir of his father by an unknown wife, Lord
of Drayton in 1304 so b. bef 1283, named as Rector of Drayton in 1307 by
Bishop Walter Langton, likely dsp bef 1311 when he was replaced as rector of
Drayton. He is named in a 1306/07 fine with Bishop Walter Langton for the
manor of Grimmeston.[5] He was the last male Bellomonte of Drayton, and
because he likely dsp in 1311 his name would not appear in his mother's 1315
IPM. Since none of the properties in the 1315 IPM were his father's, and
Alice Hardel was not his mother, it was also unlikely he would have been
named an heir. It is possible that Grimmeston and Drayton went to Bishop
Langton when Richard became rector of Drayton, since Langton is shown as his
nominee. There are 2 1315 Close Rolls entries noting a settlement between
Alice and Bishop Langton over Drayton and Cristeshale (the latter in her
IPM), perhaps the issue was over her dower share.
Gen 4.2. Alice Fitz Warin, co-heir of her mother, b. 1285 (age 30 in 1315),
d. 15 May 1333; m. aft 4 Jul 1292 by grant of the king, Sir John de Dagworth
of Dagworth, Sussex, b. 25 Apr 1276, d. 27 Jul 1332. They have colonial
descendants noted in old MCA.
Gen 4.3. Isolda de Bellomonte, co-heir of her mother, b. 1291 (age 24 in
1315 per the IPM - if Fitz Warin d. by 1285, she had to be the dau of
Alice's 2nd husband if her age in the IPM is correct, or her and eldest
sister Alice were at least 6 years older than shown), d. abt 1353, m. abt
1314 John de Bellhouse of Stanway, Essex. They have colonial descendants
noted in MCA.
Your specific question was 'who was Joan wife of William de Beaumont of
Drayton'. From the EB description, there is no way to verify the date the
monument was created or if the description is accurate. But as there were no
Bellomontes or Beaumonts at Drayton after 1315, it would likely have to date
from that time or before, so to me it sounds like it might be near
contemporary. It is possible and plausible that William II commissioned it
in memory of his father and mother, Joan de Barsham (though Joan herself did
not survive long enough to be 'of Drayton'). No other Bellomonte/Beaumonts
of the Drayton line had a wife named Joan. One of Watson's posts indicated
some question whether William II was the son of Joan de Barsham, or 2nd wife
Muriel Langetot - the monument likely resolves that issue in favor of
Joan.[8]
Alice Hardel's name recalls that of William Hardel, mayor of London in 1215
and the 'lost' MCS whose descendants have not been traced. Douglas
Richardson opined in a 2003 post that MCS Hardel 'might well be ancestral to
Alice', but also noted there was no proof.[3] I had started some research
last summer into the Hardels of London and believe Richardson's conjecture
to be true, but agree it likely cannot be proven. If one adopts a
'preponderance of the evidence' standard, a reasonable case can likely be
made for the relationship. The research indicated her father was certainly
John Hardel [cannot confirm it was 'Sir'], who was granted Rayleigh by John
de Burgh - de Burgh's wife was the dau of MCS William Lanvalay, and his
father was the son of King John's MC advisor Hubert de Burgh, so this Hardel
line was well acquainted with the baronies. The de Burgh grant suggests
Hardel's wife may even have been a dau of de Burgh and his Lanvalay wife.
The de Burghs also granted land to an ancestor of Gen 4.3 John de Bellhouse
[old MCA p. 497 sub Lanvalay], suggesting a longer Hardel and Bellhouse
family association. I had started to write up some of the Hardel ancestry in
early summer, but going to the Newberry to check some souces, library
security denied access to the genealogy floor - it was inaccessible the
entire last half of 2011 for "stack compacting"!!! It stopped most of my
research and I've moved on to other (non genealogy) projects that just keep
growing. Haven't visited Newberry since.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Copyright 2012.
Footnotes
------
[1] 55 Coram Rege Roll. Mich., 26 H. III [1241/42]. Gedeneye. 401. Egid de
Gousel versus William de Bellomonte and Alicia his wife-11 acres of land
etc. in Gedeneye as his share of the inheritance of Galfr' de Ory his uncle
and brother of the said Alicia in Gedney. [Note. Fulk de Oyri had 3 dau
co-heirs, Ela m. Robert de Constable, Alice m. William de Bellomonte, and
Emecina m. Ralph of Goxhill/Gousel.]
[2] Watson's initial post to the thread @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-03/1299125404 .
[3] IPM of Alice de Beaumont @
books.google.com/books?id=G7cKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA282
[4] 'Close Rolls, Edward I: July 1297', Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I:
volume 4: 1296-1302 (1906), pp. 38-52. URL:
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=96727. July 2. 1297.
Westminster. To the sheriff of Norfolk. Order to cause John de Bello Monte,
kinsman and heir of Nicholas son of Reyner [de Burgh], to have seisin of
100s. of yearly rent in Congeham, Geyton and Grymeston, which Thomas de
Weylond, who abjured the realm for felony, held, as the king learns by
inquisition taken by the sheriff that the rent has been in the king's hands
for a year and a day, and that Thomas held it of Nicholas, and that William
Berry had the king's year and day, for which he ought to answer to the king.
[5] Calendar of the Feet of Fines of Sussex, page 113 @
books.google.com/books?id=bAAdAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA113 .There was a fine 35 Edw I
[1306/7] between 'Walter de Langeton, Bishop of Coventry and Lytchefeld v.
Richard de Bello monte of part of manor of Grimmeston'
[6] CP 4:27 footnote g, states he d. bef 13 Jun 1290, which is the date
Alice had license to remarry. Not cited by CP is the following record which
revises the death date of Hugh Fitz Warin to bef 19 Nov 1285 : UK National
Archives; C 241/2/36; [1283 Nov 20 - 1285 Nov 19]. Chancery: Certificates of
Statute Merchant and Sta... Debtor: Alice Hardel, sometime the widow of
William Fitz-Warin [of Essex]. Creditor: John de Bokelai... Amount: ....s.
8d. Before whom: Ralph de Sandwich, Warden of London; .... .. ........,
[Clerk]. Writ to: Sheriff of Essex. Sent by: Ralph de Sandwich, Warden of
London; Note. Inquisition and return: [Clerk].Held by: The National
Archives, Kew.
[7] Feudal Aides, Vol II [Dorset-Huntingdon]; London; PRO; 1900, page 137
http://books.google.com/books?id=BuMrAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA137.
[8] archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-03/1299650460
[identity of Wm II' mother]
[9] Richardson comment re: Hardel @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2008-02/1204244174
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Weber" <jim....@nwintl.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
> Dear Newsgroup,
>
> "The Beaumonts in History" by Edward Beaumont, 1929, states the
> following:
>
> There is at Drayton Norfolk, an old memorial or market cross, the
> inscription is now illegible, but in 1809 some portions remained which
> read:
> "VOUS CHE PRIE PUR L'AN WILLIAM DE BELLEMONT
> ..... JOHANNE SA FEMME .... PATER N: ... AVE
> MARIA ... DE PARDON AVERA"
> (Blomefield's NORFOLK, X. 413).
>
> Blomefield confirms the text (in French), but does not mention the
> date 1809 when it was legible.
<SNIP>
I also have an interest in the Beaumonts of Crossland (a Wentworth
ancestor), and therefore have close familiarity with the Edward Beaumont
book ('EB'). Please be aware that EB lacks the quality of documentation this
newsgroup expects, and a great many entries demand independent verification.
It is very unreliable in the early generations, one problem being - as
here - it confuses different family lines.
When John Watson posted information about a year ago regarding the identity
of Lucy Pigot (dau of Alice de Bellomonte, gr-dau of William de Bellomonte),
I got involved in the exchange along with Will. Afterwards I did more work
intending to share it, but other things came along. Your post sparked a
renewed interest in at least posting a summary of the later research before
going on holiday, since the myth of a Crossland Drayton connection must be
destroyed. I apologize that some underlying citations are in the unposted
unfinished draft but I don't want to spend the time to clean it up before
getting on the airplane. Being away, I also can't respond to many questions
the next 2 weeks. In the meantime, hopefully John Watson, Will and others
will have fun criticizing its errors and providing corrections.
For starters, there are 2 separate Beaumont lines involved, and each of them
started out as a Bellomonte but for different reasons. EB's work focused on
the Yorkshire Bellomonte/ Beaumont line, but as with Beaumont of Drayton it
mixed in other family lines, and as here mangled the identities of marriage
partners and children. There is not only NO evidence beyond a shared last
name to link William of Drayton with the Yorkshire Beaumonts, but
substantial evidence to disprove it. The likely origin of the Bellomonte/
Beaumonts of Crossland - perhaps earlier known as de Bretton - is better
traced in ML Faull and SA Morehouse; West Yorkshire Archaeological Survey to
1500; Vol 2: Administrative and Tenurial Framework [1981]. It is an
invaluable source for West Yorkshire property transactions between Domesday
and 1500, and cites many more sources than Dodsworth's Yorkshire Deeds
(which it also cites). It is too recent to be online. I had also worked on a
separate writeup on the origins and early generations of that line, and may
try to post it when I get back if there is time.
John Watson's excellent posts last year primarily addressed the
Bellomonte/Beaumont family of Fulking, Sussex - who were also of Gedney,
Lincolnshire.[1] Based primarily on records suggesting that William II's
heirs were his 3 daus by Alicia d'Oyri, and lacking further evidence, the
view at that time was that William of Fulking, Essex was "not the same
person as William de Beaumont of Drayton as alleged by Blomfield." [2] As
noted further below, there is now additional evidence that I believe
establishes that William of Drayton should be conflated with William of
Fulking and Gedney. It also resolves a puzzle first raised by Rosie Bevan in
2002 or 2003.
The still valid pedigree for Bellomonte/Beaumont of Fulking and Gedney
presented by Watson was essentially the following, to which some dates are
added (some perhaps from subsequently found sources) :
Gen 1. William I de Bellomonte of East Barsham, d. abt 1208, m (1) abt
1184, Joan de Barsham d. bef 1199; m (2) bef 1200 Muriel Langetot. William I
had 1 son, William II whose mother was likely Joan, but there was no issue
by Muriel.
Gen 2. William II de Bellomonte b. say 1185, d. bef 1245, m (1) say 1205
as her 2nd husband, Alicia de Oyri of Gedney Lincolnshire, d. bef 1245.
Alicia was dau of Fulk d'Oyri and wife Maud le Strange co-heir of her father
Sir Ralph; Alicia and sisters Ela (m. Robert Constable of Halsham) and
Ermecina (m. Ralph of Goxhill) were co-heirs of their brother Walter.
Alicia's 1st husband was John Belet dsp abt 1204. William II and Alicia de
Oyri had 3 daus, Joan, Alice and Ela [birth order unknown].
Gen 3.1. Joan de Bellomonte b. say 1208 m. Reyner De Burgh of Congeham
Norfolkshire. They had a son, Nicholas, who dsp bef 2 Jul 1297
Gen 3.2. Alice de Bellomonte b. say 1210 m. Warin FitzHugh. They had a
dau Lucy who m. John Picot of Doddington Cambridgeshire.
Gen 3.3. Ela de Beaumont b. say 1212 m. Hervey de Stanhou.
As you note, this family line was reviewed a number of other times on SGM.
Posts by Rosie Bevan in 2002/03 discussed some of the Drayton family, at
times identified as of Witnesham, Suffolk (a location noted below as better
associated with John Spring). A key document noted and discussed by her was
the 1315 IPM for 'Alice de Beaumont',[3] whose two daughters and heirs m.
John de Dagworth [noted in old MCA p. 256 sub Dagworth] and John de Belhous
[ancestor of Margaret Castelayn in old MCA p.476 sub Knyvet]. Douglas
Richardson and others have a number of SGM posts regarding Dagworth and
Belhouse. Alice de Beaumont could not be definitively linked in 2003 to this
or a different Beaumont line because of the then unexplainable absence of
her husband's son Richard in her 1315 IPM - Bishop Walter Langford instead
held Drayton at that time. There were also 2006 posts by Douglas Richardson
about 'Hubert de Burgh's brother, Sir Thomas de Burgh' who m. Nesta de
Cokefield dau of Adam de Cokefield. The Cokefields are a close Drayton
relation, since Adam de Cokefield's sister Gunnora m. William de Drayton
whose 2 daus were his co-heirs.
Documentation has now been found that suggests some additions to the above
pedigree. The clearest link between the Fulking/Gedney and Drayton lines is
found in a 1297 record that states that John (younger son of William II of
Drayton) was "kinsman and heir" to a 1/3 share of rents held by Reyner de
Burgh's son Nicholas (mentioned in 3.1 above) including Grymeston.[3] There
was also a 1306/07 fine involving Grimeston between John's son Richard, and
Bishop Walter de Langston.[4] This would seem best interpreted as indicating
that the 3 daus of William of Fulking were heirs of their mother, but not of
their father. Curiously, the memorial monument you note also suggests that
the Fulking/Gedney and Drayton Williams should be conflated, if one assumes
the mother of William II of Drayton was Joan (de Barsham).
The suggested pedigree additions are :
Gen 2. William II m. (2), Alicia de Drayton, co-heir of her father William
and his wife Gunnora de Cokefield (the other co-heir was Agnes, who had
Scarning by a 1229/30 fine with 'William Lanveisey' her huband). Alicia was
the widow of Gervase de Bradfield, lord of Drayton in 1229/30, who must have
dsp soon thereafter. William II and Alicia had 2 sons, Godfrey and John.
Gen 3.1. Godfrey de Bellomonte of Drayton, heir of his father, adult by
1272/73, d. abt Sep 1293, m.(1) Cecilia de Ferrers, who dsp bef 28 Jul 1290;
m.(2) Eleanor NN, who dsp aft 8 May 1294. His heir was his younger brother,
John.
Gen 3.2. John de Bellomonte of Drayton, d. bef 24 Sep 1298, m.(1) NN, who
likely d. bef 1290; m.(2) aft 13 Jun 1290 Alice Hardel of Rayleigh Essex,
who d. aft 4 Feb 1314/15 and bef 10 Mar 1314/15. Alice Hardel was the widow
of William Fitz Warin valet to Edw I, who d. bef 19 Nov 1285,[6] by whom she
had at least 1 dau, Alice, m. to John de Dagworth. Alice m.(3) by license
dated 21 Aug 1301, John Spring of Witnesham, by whom she had no issue. One
of Alice's properties in the 1315 IPM was Rayleigh, first granted her father
by de Burgh, in 1303 was held by John Spring and his wife Alicia de Bello
Monte, and also by William de Haverge who had m. Alice's sister Alina/Helen,
they being the co-heirs of John Hardel.[7] John had 1 son, Richard, by his
first wife, and 1 dau, Isolda, by his second wife Alice.
Gen 4.1. Richard de Bellomonte, heir of his father by an unknown wife, Lord
of Drayton in 1304 so b. bef 1283, named as Rector of Drayton in 1307 by
Bishop Walter Langton, likely dsp bef 1311 when he was replaced as rector of
Drayton. He is named in a 1306/07 fine with Bishop Walter Langton for the
manor of Grimmeston.[5] He was the last male Bellomonte of Drayton, and
because he likely dsp in 1311 his name would not appear in his mother's 1315
IPM. Since none of the properties in the 1315 IPM were his father's, and
Alice Hardel was not his mother, it was also unlikely he would have been
named an heir. It is possible that Grimmeston and Drayton went to Bishop
Langton when Richard became rector of Drayton, since Langton is shown as his
nominee. There are 2 1315 Close Rolls entries noting a settlement between
Alice and Bishop Langton over Drayton and Cristeshale (the latter in her
IPM), perhaps the issue was over her dower share.
Gen 4.2. Alice Fitz Warin, co-heir of her mother, b. 1285 (age 30 in 1315),
d. 15 May 1333; m. aft 4 Jul 1292 by grant of the king, Sir John de Dagworth
of Dagworth, Sussex, b. 25 Apr 1276, d. 27 Jul 1332. They have colonial
descendants noted in old MCA.
Gen 4.3. Isolda de Bellomonte, co-heir of her mother, b. 1291 (age 24 in
1315 per the IPM - if Fitz Warin d. by 1285, she had to be the dau of
Alice's 2nd husband if her age in the IPM is correct, or her and eldest
sister Alice were at least 6 years older than shown), d. abt 1353, m. abt
1314 John de Bellhouse of Stanway, Essex. They have colonial descendants
noted in MCA.
Your specific question was 'who was Joan wife of William de Beaumont of
Drayton'. From the EB description, there is no way to verify the date the
monument was created or if the description is accurate. But as there were no
Bellomontes or Beaumonts at Drayton after 1315, it would likely have to date
from that time or before, so to me it sounds like it might be near
contemporary. It is possible and plausible that William II commissioned it
in memory of his father and mother, Joan de Barsham (though Joan herself did
not survive long enough to be 'of Drayton'). No other Bellomonte/Beaumonts
of the Drayton line had a wife named Joan. One of Watson's posts indicated
some question whether William II was the son of Joan de Barsham, or 2nd wife
Muriel Langetot - the monument likely resolves that issue in favor of
Joan.[8]
Alice Hardel's name recalls that of William Hardel, mayor of London in 1215
and the 'lost' MCS whose descendants have not been traced. Douglas
Richardson opined in a 2003 post that MCS Hardel 'might well be ancestral to
Alice', but also noted there was no proof.[3] I had started some research
last summer into the Hardels of London and believe Richardson's conjecture
to be true, but agree it likely cannot be proven. If one adopts a
'preponderance of the evidence' standard, a reasonable case can likely be
made for the relationship. The research indicated her father was certainly
John Hardel [cannot confirm it was 'Sir'], who was granted Rayleigh by John
de Burgh - de Burgh's wife was the dau of MCS William Lanvalay, and his
father was the son of King John's MC advisor Hubert de Burgh, so this Hardel
line was well acquainted with the baronies. The de Burgh grant suggests
Hardel's wife may even have been a dau of de Burgh and his Lanvalay wife.
The de Burghs also granted land to an ancestor of Gen 4.3 John de Bellhouse
[old MCA p. 497 sub Lanvalay], suggesting a longer Hardel and Bellhouse
family association. I had started to write up some of the Hardel ancestry in
early summer, but going to the Newberry to check some souces, library
security denied access to the genealogy floor - it was inaccessible the
entire last half of 2011 for "stack compacting"!!! It stopped most of my
research and I've moved on to other (non genealogy) projects that just keep
growing. Haven't visited Newberry since.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Copyright 2012.
Footnotes
------
[1] 55 Coram Rege Roll. Mich., 26 H. III [1241/42]. Gedeneye. 401. Egid de
Gousel versus William de Bellomonte and Alicia his wife-11 acres of land
etc. in Gedeneye as his share of the inheritance of Galfr' de Ory his uncle
and brother of the said Alicia in Gedney. [Note. Fulk de Oyri had 3 dau
co-heirs, Ela m. Robert de Constable, Alice m. William de Bellomonte, and
Emecina m. Ralph of Goxhill/Gousel.]
[2] Watson's initial post to the thread @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-03/1299125404 .
[3] IPM of Alice de Beaumont @
books.google.com/books?id=G7cKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA282
[4] 'Close Rolls, Edward I: July 1297', Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I:
volume 4: 1296-1302 (1906), pp. 38-52. URL:
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=96727. July 2. 1297.
Westminster. To the sheriff of Norfolk. Order to cause John de Bello Monte,
kinsman and heir of Nicholas son of Reyner [de Burgh], to have seisin of
100s. of yearly rent in Congeham, Geyton and Grymeston, which Thomas de
Weylond, who abjured the realm for felony, held, as the king learns by
inquisition taken by the sheriff that the rent has been in the king's hands
for a year and a day, and that Thomas held it of Nicholas, and that William
Berry had the king's year and day, for which he ought to answer to the king.
[5] Calendar of the Feet of Fines of Sussex, page 113 @
books.google.com/books?id=bAAdAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA113 .There was a fine 35 Edw I
[1306/7] between 'Walter de Langeton, Bishop of Coventry and Lytchefeld v.
Richard de Bello monte of part of manor of Grimmeston'
[6] CP 4:27 footnote g, states he d. bef 13 Jun 1290, which is the date
Alice had license to remarry. Not cited by CP is the following record which
revises the death date of Hugh Fitz Warin to bef 19 Nov 1285 : UK National
Archives; C 241/2/36; [1283 Nov 20 - 1285 Nov 19]. Chancery: Certificates of
Statute Merchant and Sta... Debtor: Alice Hardel, sometime the widow of
William Fitz-Warin [of Essex]. Creditor: John de Bokelai... Amount: ....s.
8d. Before whom: Ralph de Sandwich, Warden of London; .... .. ........,
[Clerk]. Writ to: Sheriff of Essex. Sent by: Ralph de Sandwich, Warden of
London; Note. Inquisition and return: [Clerk].Held by: The National
Archives, Kew.
[7] Feudal Aides, Vol II [Dorset-Huntingdon]; London; PRO; 1900, page 137
http://books.google.com/books?id=BuMrAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA137.
[8] archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2011-03/1299650460
[identity of Wm II' mother]
[9] Richardson comment re: Hardel @
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2008-02/1204244174
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Weber" <jim....@nwintl.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:02 PM
Subject: William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
> Dear Newsgroup,
>
> "The Beaumonts in History" by Edward Beaumont, 1929, states the
> following:
>
> There is at Drayton Norfolk, an old memorial or market cross, the
> inscription is now illegible, but in 1809 some portions remained which
> read:
> "VOUS CHE PRIE PUR L'AN WILLIAM DE BELLEMONT
> ..... JOHANNE SA FEMME .... PATER N: ... AVE
> MARIA ... DE PARDON AVERA"
> (Blomefield's NORFOLK, X. 413).
>
> Blomefield confirms the text (in French), but does not mention the
> date 1809 when it was legible.
John Watson
Apr 27, 2012, 5:45:30 PM4/27/12
to
>
> read more »
TJ,
Thanks for the excellent post. Unfortunately I have nothing useful to
add at the moment because of (a) a missing laptop containing most of
my previous notes and (b) an extremely busy work schedule which is
taking up 120% of my time.
Best regards,
John
Jim Weber
May 19, 2012, 7:19:55 PM5/19/12
to
Dear Terry & John,
In piecing together the ancestry of William de Bellomonte of Fulking &
Themilthorpe who m. Joan de Barsham and then Muriel de Langetot, I
came up with the following:
VCH Sussex, VII:202-4: "Soon after the Conquest, land in FULKING was
held by Godfrey de Bellomonte, and in 1286 Robert Aguilun died seised
of a tenement in Perching, formerly of Sir William Beaumund... This
was probably the manor of Fulking held by John de Scalariis and his
wife Alice. They, in 1260, released to Robert Aguilun all their
rights in two-thirds of the manor, with the reversion of the remaining
third, held by John Pycot and his wife Lucy as her dower of the
inheritance of Alice. In 1261 Robert Aguilun's right in one-third of
the manor was recognized by Robert de Castre and his wife Joan." (p.s.
I don't see where Robert Aguillon fits in: was his mother Margaret a
Bellomonte/Beaumund?)
The Godfrey mentioned above might be a great (or great-great)
grandfather of William. It certainly places the family in the area
for a long period of time.
Blomefield, Top. Hist. of Norfolk, VIII:277-9, in the footnotes on his
treatise of Themilthorpe states: "John of Oxford Bishop of Norwich
confirmed to the priory of Castleacre, two parts of the tithes of the
demeans of Godfrey de Bellomonte, as Simon the Bishop did in 1265."
Since John of Oxford was Bishop 1175-1200, this would place that
Godfrey of Themilthorpe as a potential father of William.
However the interesting question is: who is the Godfrey of 1265? The
most likely candidate is the son of the other William de Bellomonte &
Alice de Drayton. So this would be yet another connection between
William & Joan/Muriel and William & Alice. By placing the 1265
confirmation in Themilthorpe Blomefield implies that it has something
to do with it.
Estimating when William & Alice de Drayton were married (and might
have been born) would help in determining what the potential
connection is.
Copinger in "Manors of Suffolk" in a chart on p. 111 portraying the
relationships for Nesta de Cokefield, shows William de Bellomonte, 8
John, m., as her 1st husband, Alicia dau. of William Drayton & Gunnora
de Cokefield. Alicia m. 2ndly Gervase de Bradfield.
Copinger obviously & erroneously placed the first William (who had
died by 8 John when Muriel was his widow) as Alice's 1st husband and
Bradfield as her 2nd. The William who was alive c1248 to share in
Nesta's inheritance would have been his son William who had m. Alice
d'Oyly. As we know the latter William was the son of the William who
d. by 8 John, but by Joan Barsham--NOT by Alice de Drayton. This all
just adds to the confusion.
Blomefield in his treatise on Drayton, Norfolk, X:409-30, states
"William de Bellomont was living in the 4th of King John, and witness
to the foundation deed of Mountjoy priory, in that reign, and was
father of William, by Alice his wife, daughter and coheir (as I take
it) of William de Draiton, which Alice married first, Gervase de
Bradfield, who was lord in the 14th of Henry III."
So Blomefield has Alice's marriages reversed, which would place
William & Alice's marriage some time after 1229/30 (14 Hen III). He
still has their son as William. I believe that Blomefield is
referring to the William who m. Joan & Muriel when he is mentioning
4th of King John and the Mountjoy Priory (which is located near
Reepham & Barsham). More confusion.
However in Scarning, Norfolk, X:38-47, Blomefield states "Alice, the
other daughter and coheir, married Jervace de Bradfield, and
afterwards William de Bellomont. Godfrey or Geoffrey de Bellomonte, or
Beaumont, his son, claimed the assize of bread and beer of his
tenants..."
So in Scarning Blomefield does away with a son William, going directly
from William & Alice Drayton to Geoffrey. Given a marriage date after
c1229/30, this makes sense.
I believe that Blomefield (minus references to 4 John, Mountjoy
Priory, & a son William) is probably correct. The absence of a son
William makes it probable that Alice de Drayton was alive c1248, when
the king ordered a portion of Nesta's inheritance to be delivered to
William de Bellomonte (her husband). Of course I am not sure what the
order actually stated, as Copinger does not give the text of the c1248
order, only for the later order (c20 years later) when Godfrey was the
heir.
Given the marriage date and the fact that Alice had no children by
Gervase de Bradfield (who could have died fairly soon after they were
married?), Alice & William might have been born as late as 1200, or
even a little later.
To say that the inheritance of the 3 daughters of the William who m.
Alice d'Oyly could be all explained by the wives, is not entirely
accurate. Blomefield VIII:277-9 states that Warin FitzHugh had an
interest in Themilthorpe in 17 Edw I, along with other properties in
Cowling, Sussex, and Kerdeston, Repham, and East Barsham, Norfolk.
The properties in Norfolk were probably the inheritance of Alice, dau.
of William & Alice d'Oyly, who m. Warin son of Hugh. The citation at
the front of this post stated that a tenement in Fulking was also
passed to Alice. Themilthorpe & Fulking were probably inherited from
her father William's father and the others from his mother Joan
Barsham. Curiously I see no properties that can be attributed to the
d'Oyri family, but then they may not have been mentioned because they
weren't in Norfolk.
A minor side issue: Alice, the widow of John de Bellomonte, was
probably not the mother of Richard. CP IV:27 note (g) states that she
m. 1st a William Fitz Warin who d. bef. 13 Jun 1290. Unless he died a
long time before 1290, Alice would not have been m. to John early
enough to have Richard as a son.
I see 2 possibilities to explain the connections (others may think of
more): 1) William of Drayton was a son of an earlier wife of the
William who m. Alice d'Oyly, with Themilthorpe being divided by the
father and passed to one or more daughters by his 2nd wife, and
possibly his son by his 1st wife. 2) William of Drayton was the son
of a younger son of William & Joan Barsham, and the unnamed
intermediate generation d. v.p. and is not recorded in history (along
with any complications such as wardship of a minor son/grandson).
Later a grateful grandson erects a memorial in Drayton to his
grandparents, William & Joan.
Jim Weber
In piecing together the ancestry of William de Bellomonte of Fulking &
Themilthorpe who m. Joan de Barsham and then Muriel de Langetot, I
came up with the following:
VCH Sussex, VII:202-4: "Soon after the Conquest, land in FULKING was
held by Godfrey de Bellomonte, and in 1286 Robert Aguilun died seised
of a tenement in Perching, formerly of Sir William Beaumund... This
was probably the manor of Fulking held by John de Scalariis and his
wife Alice. They, in 1260, released to Robert Aguilun all their
rights in two-thirds of the manor, with the reversion of the remaining
third, held by John Pycot and his wife Lucy as her dower of the
inheritance of Alice. In 1261 Robert Aguilun's right in one-third of
the manor was recognized by Robert de Castre and his wife Joan." (p.s.
I don't see where Robert Aguillon fits in: was his mother Margaret a
Bellomonte/Beaumund?)
The Godfrey mentioned above might be a great (or great-great)
grandfather of William. It certainly places the family in the area
for a long period of time.
Blomefield, Top. Hist. of Norfolk, VIII:277-9, in the footnotes on his
treatise of Themilthorpe states: "John of Oxford Bishop of Norwich
confirmed to the priory of Castleacre, two parts of the tithes of the
demeans of Godfrey de Bellomonte, as Simon the Bishop did in 1265."
Since John of Oxford was Bishop 1175-1200, this would place that
Godfrey of Themilthorpe as a potential father of William.
However the interesting question is: who is the Godfrey of 1265? The
most likely candidate is the son of the other William de Bellomonte &
Alice de Drayton. So this would be yet another connection between
William & Joan/Muriel and William & Alice. By placing the 1265
confirmation in Themilthorpe Blomefield implies that it has something
to do with it.
Estimating when William & Alice de Drayton were married (and might
have been born) would help in determining what the potential
connection is.
Copinger in "Manors of Suffolk" in a chart on p. 111 portraying the
relationships for Nesta de Cokefield, shows William de Bellomonte, 8
John, m., as her 1st husband, Alicia dau. of William Drayton & Gunnora
de Cokefield. Alicia m. 2ndly Gervase de Bradfield.
Copinger obviously & erroneously placed the first William (who had
died by 8 John when Muriel was his widow) as Alice's 1st husband and
Bradfield as her 2nd. The William who was alive c1248 to share in
Nesta's inheritance would have been his son William who had m. Alice
d'Oyly. As we know the latter William was the son of the William who
d. by 8 John, but by Joan Barsham--NOT by Alice de Drayton. This all
just adds to the confusion.
Blomefield in his treatise on Drayton, Norfolk, X:409-30, states
"William de Bellomont was living in the 4th of King John, and witness
to the foundation deed of Mountjoy priory, in that reign, and was
father of William, by Alice his wife, daughter and coheir (as I take
it) of William de Draiton, which Alice married first, Gervase de
Bradfield, who was lord in the 14th of Henry III."
So Blomefield has Alice's marriages reversed, which would place
William & Alice's marriage some time after 1229/30 (14 Hen III). He
still has their son as William. I believe that Blomefield is
referring to the William who m. Joan & Muriel when he is mentioning
4th of King John and the Mountjoy Priory (which is located near
Reepham & Barsham). More confusion.
However in Scarning, Norfolk, X:38-47, Blomefield states "Alice, the
other daughter and coheir, married Jervace de Bradfield, and
afterwards William de Bellomont. Godfrey or Geoffrey de Bellomonte, or
Beaumont, his son, claimed the assize of bread and beer of his
tenants..."
So in Scarning Blomefield does away with a son William, going directly
from William & Alice Drayton to Geoffrey. Given a marriage date after
c1229/30, this makes sense.
I believe that Blomefield (minus references to 4 John, Mountjoy
Priory, & a son William) is probably correct. The absence of a son
William makes it probable that Alice de Drayton was alive c1248, when
the king ordered a portion of Nesta's inheritance to be delivered to
William de Bellomonte (her husband). Of course I am not sure what the
order actually stated, as Copinger does not give the text of the c1248
order, only for the later order (c20 years later) when Godfrey was the
heir.
Given the marriage date and the fact that Alice had no children by
Gervase de Bradfield (who could have died fairly soon after they were
married?), Alice & William might have been born as late as 1200, or
even a little later.
To say that the inheritance of the 3 daughters of the William who m.
Alice d'Oyly could be all explained by the wives, is not entirely
accurate. Blomefield VIII:277-9 states that Warin FitzHugh had an
interest in Themilthorpe in 17 Edw I, along with other properties in
Cowling, Sussex, and Kerdeston, Repham, and East Barsham, Norfolk.
The properties in Norfolk were probably the inheritance of Alice, dau.
of William & Alice d'Oyly, who m. Warin son of Hugh. The citation at
the front of this post stated that a tenement in Fulking was also
passed to Alice. Themilthorpe & Fulking were probably inherited from
her father William's father and the others from his mother Joan
Barsham. Curiously I see no properties that can be attributed to the
d'Oyri family, but then they may not have been mentioned because they
weren't in Norfolk.
A minor side issue: Alice, the widow of John de Bellomonte, was
probably not the mother of Richard. CP IV:27 note (g) states that she
m. 1st a William Fitz Warin who d. bef. 13 Jun 1290. Unless he died a
long time before 1290, Alice would not have been m. to John early
enough to have Richard as a son.
I see 2 possibilities to explain the connections (others may think of
more): 1) William of Drayton was a son of an earlier wife of the
William who m. Alice d'Oyly, with Themilthorpe being divided by the
father and passed to one or more daughters by his 2nd wife, and
possibly his son by his 1st wife. 2) William of Drayton was the son
of a younger son of William & Joan Barsham, and the unnamed
intermediate generation d. v.p. and is not recorded in history (along
with any complications such as wardship of a minor son/grandson).
Later a grateful grandson erects a memorial in Drayton to his
grandparents, William & Joan.
Jim Weber
Doug
May 20, 2012, 3:25:04 PM5/20/12
to
Ralph de Beaufoe had a grant of this town, of which Aldulf, a freeman, was deprived; and Odar, at the survey held it under; 2 carucates belonged to it, with 7 villains and 8 borderers, and 3 servi, one carucate in demean, and 3 among the tenants, &c. with 10 acres of meadow, paunage for 3 swine, one runcus, 2 cows, &c. 180 sheep, and 60 goats. Two socmen had half a carucate, and there was a church endowed with 8 acres, valued at 16d. In King Edward the First's time, the whole was valued at 40s. at the survey at 50s.; it was one leuca long, and half a leuca broad, and paid 8d. 3 farthings gelt; the King and the Earl had the soc. (fn. 1)
Of this Ralph de Beaufoe, see in Swanton-Morley. Hermer de Draiton was lord of this town in the 9th of Richard I. and presented then his son, Peter, to this church.
The Draytons probably descended from Odarus abovementioned; from the Draitons it came to the Bellomonts. William de Bellomont was living in the 4th of King John, and witness to the foundation deed of Mountjoy priory, in that reign, and was father of William, by Alice his wife, daughter and coheir (as I take it) of William de Draiton, which Alice married first, Gervase de Bradfield, who was lord in the 14th of Henry III.
Geffrey de Bellomonte claimed in the 3d of Edward I. the assise, free warren, gallows, &c. this lordship being part of the barony of Rye: he married Cecilia, daughter of Robert de Ferrarijs.
In the 15th of this King, the said Geffrey, John de Crek, and Ralph Berners, brought a writ of right against the abbot of Bury, for the lordships of Semere, Groten, &c. in Suffolk, on which a duel was fought, and the abbot's champion was overcome.
Their claim was from Nesta de Cockfeld, who dying s. p. her three aunts were found to be her heirs; Alice, married to William de Bellomonte; —, to Robert de Crek, and Beatrix, to Ralph Berner. Godfrey dying s. p. in the 21st of the said King, lord of Assington, Trimley, the 3d part of Semere and Groten, and of Bokebroke in Suffolk, &c. Sir John de Bellomonte was found to be his brother and heir, who was lord in the 25th of that reign, and left by Alice his wife, a son and heir, Richard de Bellomonte, who was lord in the 27th: but in the 33d, Alice, widow of Sir John, conveyed this lordship to Walter de Langton Bishop of Litchfield and Coventry, (her interest herein for life being excepted,) as did her son Richard by fine, for 100l.
from
'Taverham Hundred: Drayton', An Essay towards a Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: volume 10 (1809), pp. 409-413. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78704 Date accessed: 20 May 2012.
Doug Smith
TJ Booth
May 20, 2012, 6:35:16 PM5/20/12
to GenMedieval
Jim,
Thank you for the added citations. I believe they are consistent with and
add to the pedigree set forth in my first post, including the Blomfield and
Copinger references. While I have much respect for Blomfield, he lacked
access to (or at least was unaware of) many national archive and other
contemporary documents that John, I and others have found after his time.
What may seem apparent confusion in their statements, is clarified by the
subsequent documents. If citations are needed for some of the dates in the
pedigree below they can be provided.
The first VCH Sussex document you cite is interesting. One interpretation is
that Lucy Fitz Hugh, dau of Warin and Alice de Bellomonte, had an earlier
husband than John Picot if she held a dower interest in 1260. It does
indicate Alice de Bellomonte d. bef that date, and Lucy and John after it.
Perhaps Lucy m (1) a de Scalariis who d. shortly after having fathered a
son, John.
As to 'who is the Godfrey of 1265?', see my first post and pedigree Gen 3.4
below. His name and association of his family with Fulking does suggest a
relationship to the Domesday Godfrey de Bellomonte of Fulking, but that
would seem conjecture at present lacking further evidence.
I now realize that it may initially seem unreasonable that William II's
heirs were his sons by second wife Alicia de Drayton. But as he had no male
heirs by first wife Alicia d'Oyri (his daus by d'Oyri were only her heirs),
his only male heirs were by 2nd wife Alicia de Drayton.
Further detail can now be added about William I Bellomonte's 2nd wife,
Muriel Langetot, which proves that William II was not her son. Searching the
archives, Rosie Bevan, Chris Phillips and others posted a great deal of
evidence and work in 2003 on the ancestry of Muriel and her 1st husband,
Alan II de Dunstanville of Shiplake.[1] Their posts and a set of Jan 1243
Plea Roll entries [2] show that Muriel had 4 heirs, three of whom were
sisters of her youngest son Geoffrey de Dunstanville (who like his older bro
Alan III dsp). The fourth heir was a dau, Muriel II, who was not Geoffrey's
heir, the footnote comment being she must be a half-sister. That Muriel II
was the youngest dau is also suggested by the fact that the 3 other sisters
were all d. in 1243 when it was the heirs of those sisters who brought suit
against Muriel II and her husband. These records 1) prove that William II
could not be the son of Muriel (or otherwise he would have also been named
an heir), and 2) make Muriel II the dau of William based on chronology.
The combined pedigree from the prior post, with additions for Muriel &
others, is as follows :
Gen 1. William I de Bellomonte, perhaps of Fulking, b. likely 1155/1165,
d. abt 1208, m (1) abt 1184, Joan de Barsham who d. bef 1199. William I had
issue by Joan, a son and heir William II.
William I m (2) bef 1199, as her 2nd husband, Muriel Langetot, b. 1155
(age 30 in 1185), d. aft 1209. Muriel, was dau of Geoffrey FitzWilliam and
Emma Langetot, and was co-heir of her mother along with sister Cecilia (m.
Alard FitzWilliam). Muriel was the widow of Alan II de Dunstanville of
Shiplake, Oxfordshire, by whom she had 2 sons who dsp (Alan III and
Geoffrey), and 3 daus : 1.Cecilia m. William Basset of Ippesden son of John
(Cecilia's aunt, Alice de Dunstanville, m. Thomas Basset of Hedendon, son of
Gilbert and Edith d'Oyly); 2. Alice m. Gilbert de Baseville/Boseville; 3.
Emma m. Thomas de Englefield. Muriel m. as her 3rd husband, Henry de
Ferlie/Ferley, d bef 1224. William I had 1 dau by Muriel, Muriel II.
Gen 2.1. William II de Bellomonte by Joan de Barsham, b. say 1185, d. bef
marriage. William II was likely the person who commissioned a monument to
his parents 'William de Bellemont . . Johanne sa Femme . . Pater N . . "
still partially legible in 1809. Alicia was dau of Fulk d'Oyri and wife
Maud le Strange co-heir of her father Sir Ralph. Alicia and sisters Ela (m.
was widow of Gervase de Bradfield, lord of Drayton in 1229/30, who must have
her mother would be age 44), d. aft 20 Jan 1243. She m. Robert Danvers, d.
aft 20 Jan 1243.[1]
Gen 3.1. Joan de Bellomonte, dau by Alice d'Oyri, b. say 1208, m. Reyner
heir' of Congesham, Grimston and other properties. [3]
Gen 3.2. Alice de Bellomonte, dau by Alice d'Oyri, b. say 1210 m. Warin
FitzHugh. They had a dau Lucy, d. aft 1260, who m. John Picot of Doddington
Cambridgeshire, d. aft 1260. Lucy may have earlier m. a de Scallariis and
had a son John by him, as Lucy held a 1/3 dower share of her mother in
Fulking Sussex in 1260 which was sold along with a 2/3 share owned by John.
Gen 3.3. Ela de Beaumont, dau by Alice d'Oyri, b. say 1212 m. Hervey de
Stanhou.
Gen 3.4. Godfrey de Bellomonte of Drayton, son of his father's 2nd wife
Alice de Drayton but heir male of his father since there were no sons by
Alice d'Oyri, adult by 1272/73, d. abt Sep 1293, m.(1) Cecilia de Ferrers,
of his bro, d. bef 24 Sep 1298, m.(1) NN, who likely d. bef 1290; m.(2) aft
the manor of Grimmeston which his father inherited from Nicholas de Burgh.
settlement between his step-mother Alice, and Bishop Langton over Drayton
Warin and co-heir of her mother, b. 1285 (age 30 in 1315), d. 15 May 1333;
Gen 4.3. Isolda de Bellomonte, dau of Alice Hardel's 2nd husband John de
Bellomonte and co-heir of her mother, b. 1291 (age 24 in 1315 per the IPM -
Chicago IL
Footnotes
________
[1] There were numerous posts, with citations spread amongst them, regarding
the Langetot ancestry. A suggested pedigree of Langetot is at
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2003-03/1048823590 dated
27 Mar 2003. A later 27 Jul response to a Chris Phillips post agrees Muriel
de Langetot's dau Muriel was by William de Bellomonte, not Alan II de
Dunstanville
(archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2003-07/1059373706).
There was also much discussion of the ancestry of Muriel's 1st husband, Alan
II de Dunstanville by Chris Phillips, Ivor West and others in 2001, an
interesting consensus ancestry for Alan I de Dunstanville suggesting that
his paternal brandmother was perhaps Adeliza de Warenne, dau of William and
Gundreda de Flanders, with Adeliza having m. the heir of Hugh de Lisle but
Traditionally, Adeliza is seen as the dau of Hugh de Lisle.
[2] George Wrottesley; 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 1239-43',
Staffordshire Historical Collections, vol. 4 (1883), pp. 90-102. URL:
ww.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52388.
Plea Roll No. 58. [January, 1243.] Oxon. William de Englefeud, (fn. 12)
Alan Basset, and Gilbert de Bosevill, sue Robert Danvers and Muriell his
wife, for half a knight's fee (excepting two carrucates) in Shiplak, and the
advowson of the Church; and state that one Geoffrey de Dunstanville their
ancestor was seised of them as of fee in the time of King Henry, the
grandfather of the present King, and from Geoffrey the right descended to
Emma, Cecilia, and Alice, his sisters and heirs, because he died without
issue; and from Emma to Alan (de Engelfeld), as her son and heir; and from
Alan to William, as son and heir, who now sues.And from Cecilia the right
descended to the said Alan Basset, who now sues, as her son and heir. And
from the said Alice the right descended to Gilbert de Basevill, as her son
and heir.
Robert and Muriell admit the above facts, but state that the land in
question was the inheritance of one Muriell, who was wife of Alan de
Dunstanvill and the mother of the said Muriell, and of Emma, Alice, and
Cecilia; and after the death of Geoffrey the said William, Alan, and Gilbert
had taken with them the said Muriell as one of their heirs, and had gone
with her to the Earl Richard, the capital lord of the fee, and they had paid
together their relief. The verdict is for the plaintiffs, excepting as to
that portion of the land which formed the marriage portion of Muriell. m. 4,
dorso.
[Roll No. 59].[20th January, 1243.] M. 7. Oxon. The suit of William de
Engelfeld, Alan Basset, and Gilbert de Bosevill, versus Robert Danvers and
Muriel his wife (given at greater length than in Roll No. 58). It states
that William, Alan, and Gilbert denied they had ever recognised Muriel as a
co-heir, and they asked for judgment if Muriel ought to have a part of the
land in dispute, inasmuch as she was no heir, nor could be heir of the said
Geoffrey de Dunstanvill. (fn. 13 - which notes "Although not stated, Muriel
must have been daughter of Muriel de Dunstanville by another husband, and
half-sister only to the co-heiresses of Geoffrey de Dunstanville.")
[3] In an important 2 Jul 1297 document cited in my 27 Apr post, John de
Bellomonte is called 'heir and kinsman' of Nicholas son of Reyner de Burgh,
the properties including Congeham and Grymeston/Grimston. The relationship
can only exist if the first wife of Godfrey's father were Alice d'Oyri. See
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Weber" <jim....@nwintl.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> I see 2 possibilities to explain the connections (others may think of
> more): 1) William of Drayton was a son of an earlier wife of the
> William who m. Alice d'Oyly, with Themilthorpe being divided by the
> father and passed to one or more daughters by his 2nd wife, and
> possibly his son by his 1st wife. 2) William of Drayton was the son
> of a younger son of William & Joan Barsham, and the unnamed
> intermediate generation d. v.p. and is not recorded in history (along
> with any complications such as wardship of a minor son/grandson).
> Later a grateful grandson erects a memorial in Drayton to his
> grandparents, William & Joan.
>
> Jim Weber
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank you for the added citations. I believe they are consistent with and
add to the pedigree set forth in my first post, including the Blomfield and
Copinger references. While I have much respect for Blomfield, he lacked
access to (or at least was unaware of) many national archive and other
contemporary documents that John, I and others have found after his time.
What may seem apparent confusion in their statements, is clarified by the
subsequent documents. If citations are needed for some of the dates in the
pedigree below they can be provided.
The first VCH Sussex document you cite is interesting. One interpretation is
that Lucy Fitz Hugh, dau of Warin and Alice de Bellomonte, had an earlier
husband than John Picot if she held a dower interest in 1260. It does
indicate Alice de Bellomonte d. bef that date, and Lucy and John after it.
Perhaps Lucy m (1) a de Scalariis who d. shortly after having fathered a
son, John.
As to 'who is the Godfrey of 1265?', see my first post and pedigree Gen 3.4
below. His name and association of his family with Fulking does suggest a
relationship to the Domesday Godfrey de Bellomonte of Fulking, but that
would seem conjecture at present lacking further evidence.
I now realize that it may initially seem unreasonable that William II's
heirs were his sons by second wife Alicia de Drayton. But as he had no male
heirs by first wife Alicia d'Oyri (his daus by d'Oyri were only her heirs),
his only male heirs were by 2nd wife Alicia de Drayton.
Further detail can now be added about William I Bellomonte's 2nd wife,
Muriel Langetot, which proves that William II was not her son. Searching the
archives, Rosie Bevan, Chris Phillips and others posted a great deal of
evidence and work in 2003 on the ancestry of Muriel and her 1st husband,
Alan II de Dunstanville of Shiplake.[1] Their posts and a set of Jan 1243
Plea Roll entries [2] show that Muriel had 4 heirs, three of whom were
sisters of her youngest son Geoffrey de Dunstanville (who like his older bro
Alan III dsp). The fourth heir was a dau, Muriel II, who was not Geoffrey's
heir, the footnote comment being she must be a half-sister. That Muriel II
was the youngest dau is also suggested by the fact that the 3 other sisters
were all d. in 1243 when it was the heirs of those sisters who brought suit
against Muriel II and her husband. These records 1) prove that William II
could not be the son of Muriel (or otherwise he would have also been named
an heir), and 2) make Muriel II the dau of William based on chronology.
The combined pedigree from the prior post, with additions for Muriel &
others, is as follows :
Gen 1. William I de Bellomonte, perhaps of Fulking, b. likely 1155/1165,
d. abt 1208, m (1) abt 1184, Joan de Barsham who d. bef 1199. William I had
issue by Joan, a son and heir William II.
William I m (2) bef 1199, as her 2nd husband, Muriel Langetot, b. 1155
(age 30 in 1185), d. aft 1209. Muriel, was dau of Geoffrey FitzWilliam and
Emma Langetot, and was co-heir of her mother along with sister Cecilia (m.
Alard FitzWilliam). Muriel was the widow of Alan II de Dunstanville of
Shiplake, Oxfordshire, by whom she had 2 sons who dsp (Alan III and
Geoffrey), and 3 daus : 1.Cecilia m. William Basset of Ippesden son of John
(Cecilia's aunt, Alice de Dunstanville, m. Thomas Basset of Hedendon, son of
Gilbert and Edith d'Oyly); 2. Alice m. Gilbert de Baseville/Boseville; 3.
Emma m. Thomas de Englefield. Muriel m. as her 3rd husband, Henry de
Ferlie/Ferley, d bef 1224. William I had 1 dau by Muriel, Muriel II.
Gen 2.1. William II de Bellomonte by Joan de Barsham, b. say 1185, d. bef
1245, m (1) say 1205 as her 2nd husband, Alicia de Oyri of Gedney
Lincolnshire, d. perhaps by 1230 and certainly bef William II's 2nd
marriage. William II was likely the person who commissioned a monument to
his parents 'William de Bellemont . . Johanne sa Femme . . Pater N . . "
still partially legible in 1809. Alicia was dau of Fulk d'Oyri and wife
Maud le Strange co-heir of her father Sir Ralph. Alicia and sisters Ela (m.
Robert Constable of Halsham) and Ermecina (m. Ralph of Goxhill) were
co-heirs of their brother Walter. Alicia's 1st husband was John Belet dsp
abt 1204. William II and Alicia de Oyri had 3 daus, Joan, Alice and Ela
[birth order unknown].
William II m. (2) aft 1230, Alicia de Drayton, co-heir of her father
co-heirs of their brother Walter. Alicia's 1st husband was John Belet dsp
abt 1204. William II and Alicia de Oyri had 3 daus, Joan, Alice and Ela
[birth order unknown].
William and his wife Gunnora de Cokefield (the other co-heir was Agnes, who
had Scarning by a 1229/30 fine with 'William Lanveisey' her husband). Alicia
was widow of Gervase de Bradfield, lord of Drayton in 1229/30, who must have
dsp soon thereafter. William II and Alicia had 2 sons, Godfrey and John.
Gen 2.2. Muriel de Bellomonte, by Muriel de Langetot, b. bef 1199 (when
her mother would be age 44), d. aft 20 Jan 1243. She m. Robert Danvers, d.
aft 20 Jan 1243.[1]
Gen 3.1. Joan de Bellomonte, dau by Alice d'Oyri, b. say 1208, m. Reyner
De Burgh of Congeham Norfolkshire. They had a son, Nicholas, who dsp bef 2
Jul 1297, when John de Bellomonte [Gen 3.5] was found to be his 'kinsman and
heir' of Congesham, Grimston and other properties. [3]
Gen 3.2. Alice de Bellomonte, dau by Alice d'Oyri, b. say 1210 m. Warin
FitzHugh. They had a dau Lucy, d. aft 1260, who m. John Picot of Doddington
Cambridgeshire, d. aft 1260. Lucy may have earlier m. a de Scallariis and
had a son John by him, as Lucy held a 1/3 dower share of her mother in
Fulking Sussex in 1260 which was sold along with a 2/3 share owned by John.
Gen 3.3. Ela de Beaumont, dau by Alice d'Oyri, b. say 1212 m. Hervey de
Stanhou.
Gen 3.4. Godfrey de Bellomonte of Drayton, son of his father's 2nd wife
Alice de Drayton but heir male of his father since there were no sons by
Alice d'Oyri, adult by 1272/73, d. abt Sep 1293, m.(1) Cecilia de Ferrers,
who dsp bef 28 Jul 1290; m.(2) Eleanor NN, who dsp aft 8 May 1294. His heir
was his younger brother, John.
Gen 3.5. John de Bellomonte of Drayton, son by Alicia de Drayton and heir
was his younger brother, John.
of his bro, d. bef 24 Sep 1298, m.(1) NN, who likely d. bef 1290; m.(2) aft
13 Jun 1290 Alice Hardel of Rayleigh Essex, who d. aft 4 Feb 1314/15 and bef
10 Mar 1314/15. Alice Hardel was the widow of William Fitz Warin valet to
Edw I, who d. bef 19 Nov 1285,[6] by whom she had at least 1 dau, Alice, m.
to John de Dagworth. Alice m.(3) by license dated 21 Aug 1301, John Spring
of Witnesham, by whom she had no issue. One of Alice's properties in the
1315 IPM was Rayleigh, first granted her father by de Burgh, which in 1303
10 Mar 1314/15. Alice Hardel was the widow of William Fitz Warin valet to
Edw I, who d. bef 19 Nov 1285,[6] by whom she had at least 1 dau, Alice, m.
to John de Dagworth. Alice m.(3) by license dated 21 Aug 1301, John Spring
of Witnesham, by whom she had no issue. One of Alice's properties in the
was held by John Spring and his wife Alicia de Bello Monte, and also by
William de Haverge who had m. Alice's sister Alina/Helen, they being the
co-heirs of John Hardel. John had 1 son, Richard, by his first wife, and 1
William de Haverge who had m. Alice's sister Alina/Helen, they being the
dau, Isolda, by his second wife Alice.
Gen 4.1. Richard de Bellomonte, heir of his father by an unknown wife,
Lord of Drayton in 1304 so b. bef 1283, named as Rector of Drayton in 1307
by Bishop Walter Langton, likely dsp bef 1311 when he was replaced as rector
of Drayton. He was named in a 1306/07 fine with Bishop Walter Langton for
Gen 4.1. Richard de Bellomonte, heir of his father by an unknown wife,
Lord of Drayton in 1304 so b. bef 1283, named as Rector of Drayton in 1307
by Bishop Walter Langton, likely dsp bef 1311 when he was replaced as rector
the manor of Grimmeston which his father inherited from Nicholas de Burgh.
He was the last male Bellomonte of Drayton, and because he likely dsp in
1311 his name would not appear in his mother's 1315 IPM. Since none of the
properties in the 1315 IPM were his father's, and Alice Hardel was not his
mother, it was also unlikely he would have been
named an heir. It is possible that Grimmeston and Drayton went to Bishop
Langton when Richard became rector of Drayton, since Langton is shown as his
nominee to the rectorship. There are 2 1315 Close Rolls entries noting a
1311 his name would not appear in his mother's 1315 IPM. Since none of the
properties in the 1315 IPM were his father's, and Alice Hardel was not his
mother, it was also unlikely he would have been
named an heir. It is possible that Grimmeston and Drayton went to Bishop
Langton when Richard became rector of Drayton, since Langton is shown as his
settlement between his step-mother Alice, and Bishop Langton over Drayton
and Cristeshale (the latter in her IPM), perhaps the issue was over her
dower share.
Gen 4.2. Alice Fitz Warin, dau of Alice Hardel's 1st husband William Fitz
dower share.
Warin and co-heir of her mother, b. 1285 (age 30 in 1315), d. 15 May 1333;
m. aft 4 Jul 1292 by grant of the king, Sir John de Dagworth of Dagworth,
Sussex, b. 25 Apr 1276, d. 27 Jul 1332. They have colonial descendants noted
in MCA.
Sussex, b. 25 Apr 1276, d. 27 Jul 1332. They have colonial descendants noted
Gen 4.3. Isolda de Bellomonte, dau of Alice Hardel's 2nd husband John de
Bellomonte and co-heir of her mother, b. 1291 (age 24 in 1315 per the IPM -
if Fitz Warin d. by 1285, she had to be the dau of Alice's 2nd husband if
her age in the IPM is correct, or her and eldest sister Alice were at least
6 years older than shown), d. abt 1353, m. abt 1314 John de Bellhouse of
Stanway, Essex. They have colonial descendants noted in MCA.
Terry Booth
her age in the IPM is correct, or her and eldest sister Alice were at least
6 years older than shown), d. abt 1353, m. abt 1314 John de Bellhouse of
Stanway, Essex. They have colonial descendants noted in MCA.
Chicago IL
Footnotes
________
[1] There were numerous posts, with citations spread amongst them, regarding
the Langetot ancestry. A suggested pedigree of Langetot is at
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2003-03/1048823590 dated
27 Mar 2003. A later 27 Jul response to a Chris Phillips post agrees Muriel
de Langetot's dau Muriel was by William de Bellomonte, not Alan II de
Dunstanville
(archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2003-07/1059373706).
There was also much discussion of the ancestry of Muriel's 1st husband, Alan
II de Dunstanville by Chris Phillips, Ivor West and others in 2001, an
interesting consensus ancestry for Alan I de Dunstanville suggesting that
his paternal brandmother was perhaps Adeliza de Warenne, dau of William and
Gundreda de Flanders, with Adeliza having m. the heir of Hugh de Lisle but
by whom she had no issue
(archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2001-02/0981239959).
Traditionally, Adeliza is seen as the dau of Hugh de Lisle.
[2] George Wrottesley; 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 1239-43',
Staffordshire Historical Collections, vol. 4 (1883), pp. 90-102. URL:
ww.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52388.
Plea Roll No. 58. [January, 1243.] Oxon. William de Englefeud, (fn. 12)
Alan Basset, and Gilbert de Bosevill, sue Robert Danvers and Muriell his
wife, for half a knight's fee (excepting two carrucates) in Shiplak, and the
advowson of the Church; and state that one Geoffrey de Dunstanville their
ancestor was seised of them as of fee in the time of King Henry, the
grandfather of the present King, and from Geoffrey the right descended to
Emma, Cecilia, and Alice, his sisters and heirs, because he died without
issue; and from Emma to Alan (de Engelfeld), as her son and heir; and from
Alan to William, as son and heir, who now sues.And from Cecilia the right
descended to the said Alan Basset, who now sues, as her son and heir. And
from the said Alice the right descended to Gilbert de Basevill, as her son
and heir.
Robert and Muriell admit the above facts, but state that the land in
question was the inheritance of one Muriell, who was wife of Alan de
Dunstanvill and the mother of the said Muriell, and of Emma, Alice, and
Cecilia; and after the death of Geoffrey the said William, Alan, and Gilbert
had taken with them the said Muriell as one of their heirs, and had gone
with her to the Earl Richard, the capital lord of the fee, and they had paid
together their relief. The verdict is for the plaintiffs, excepting as to
that portion of the land which formed the marriage portion of Muriell. m. 4,
dorso.
[Roll No. 59].[20th January, 1243.] M. 7. Oxon. The suit of William de
Engelfeld, Alan Basset, and Gilbert de Bosevill, versus Robert Danvers and
Muriel his wife (given at greater length than in Roll No. 58). It states
that William, Alan, and Gilbert denied they had ever recognised Muriel as a
co-heir, and they asked for judgment if Muriel ought to have a part of the
land in dispute, inasmuch as she was no heir, nor could be heir of the said
Geoffrey de Dunstanvill. (fn. 13 - which notes "Although not stated, Muriel
must have been daughter of Muriel de Dunstanville by another husband, and
half-sister only to the co-heiresses of Geoffrey de Dunstanville.")
[3] In an important 2 Jul 1297 document cited in my 27 Apr post, John de
Bellomonte is called 'heir and kinsman' of Nicholas son of Reyner de Burgh,
the properties including Congeham and Grymeston/Grimston. The relationship
can only exist if the first wife of Godfrey's father were Alice d'Oyri. See
'Close Rolls, Edward I: July 1297', Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I:
volume 4: 1296-1302 (1906), pp. 38-52. URL:
ww.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=96727
volume 4: 1296-1302 (1906), pp. 38-52. URL:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Weber" <jim....@nwintl.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
> Dear Terry & John,
>
> In piecing together the ancestry of William de Bellomonte of Fulking &
> Themilthorpe who m. Joan de Barsham and then Muriel de Langetot, I
> came up with the following:
>
> VCH Sussex, VII:202-4: "Soon after the Conquest, land in FULKING was
> held by Godfrey de Bellomonte, and in 1286 Robert Aguilun died seised
> of a tenement in Perching, formerly of Sir William Beaumund... This
> was probably the manor of Fulking held by John de Scalariis and his
> wife Alice. They, in 1260, released to Robert Aguilun all their
> rights in two-thirds of the manor, with the reversion of the remaining
> third, held by John Pycot and his wife Lucy as her dower of the
> inheritance of Alice. In 1261 Robert Aguilun's right in one-third of
> the manor was recognized by Robert de Castre and his wife Joan." (p.s.
> I don't see where Robert Aguillon fits in: was his mother Margaret a
> Bellomonte/Beaumund?)
<snip>
Subject: Re: William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
> Dear Terry & John,
>
> In piecing together the ancestry of William de Bellomonte of Fulking &
> Themilthorpe who m. Joan de Barsham and then Muriel de Langetot, I
> came up with the following:
>
> VCH Sussex, VII:202-4: "Soon after the Conquest, land in FULKING was
> held by Godfrey de Bellomonte, and in 1286 Robert Aguilun died seised
> of a tenement in Perching, formerly of Sir William Beaumund... This
> was probably the manor of Fulking held by John de Scalariis and his
> wife Alice. They, in 1260, released to Robert Aguilun all their
> rights in two-thirds of the manor, with the reversion of the remaining
> third, held by John Pycot and his wife Lucy as her dower of the
> inheritance of Alice. In 1261 Robert Aguilun's right in one-third of
> the manor was recognized by Robert de Castre and his wife Joan." (p.s.
> I don't see where Robert Aguillon fits in: was his mother Margaret a
> Bellomonte/Beaumund?)
> I see 2 possibilities to explain the connections (others may think of
> more): 1) William of Drayton was a son of an earlier wife of the
> William who m. Alice d'Oyly, with Themilthorpe being divided by the
> father and passed to one or more daughters by his 2nd wife, and
> possibly his son by his 1st wife. 2) William of Drayton was the son
> of a younger son of William & Joan Barsham, and the unnamed
> intermediate generation d. v.p. and is not recorded in history (along
> with any complications such as wardship of a minor son/grandson).
> Later a grateful grandson erects a memorial in Drayton to his
> grandparents, William & Joan.
>
> Jim Weber
>
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
John Watson
May 21, 2012, 6:14:51 AM5/21/12
to
On May 21, 5:35 am, "TJ Booth" <tjbo...@aol.com> wrote:
TJ,
As I pointed out in another post in the past couple of weeks. I can
find no evidence that Lucy, wife of John Picot was the daughter of
Warin FitzHugh and Alice de Beaumont and it appears that my post of
last year was in error. Re-examining the evidence of fines, etc. my
best guess is that Lucy was married firstly to a brother of Joan,
Alice and Ela de Beaumont, who died in his father's lifetime and
secondly to John Picot. It also appears that Alice de Beaumont, after
the death of Warin FitzHugh married John de Scalers.
I hope that this makes it clear.
Regards,
John Watson
TJ,
As I pointed out in another post in the past couple of weeks. I can
find no evidence that Lucy, wife of John Picot was the daughter of
Warin FitzHugh and Alice de Beaumont and it appears that my post of
last year was in error. Re-examining the evidence of fines, etc. my
best guess is that Lucy was married firstly to a brother of Joan,
Alice and Ela de Beaumont, who died in his father's lifetime and
secondly to John Picot. It also appears that Alice de Beaumont, after
the death of Warin FitzHugh married John de Scalers.
I hope that this makes it clear.
Regards,
John Watson
Jim Weber
May 21, 2012, 2:49:50 PM5/21/12
to
Terry,
Thank you for the great pedigree, much better than anything I have
seen. It makes a lot of sense.
There are a few niggling questions.
1. The first is the one that you mentioned: All of William II's lands
from his father & mother seemed to go to his daughters (actually I
only know of the ones for Alice wife of Warin Fitz Hugh). While I
find none of the lands mentioned for his sons, Godfrey & John, being
other than those attributable to Alice de Drayton (and her cousin
Nesta de Cokefield)'s inheritance.
2. John Watson cited: "From a Lincolnshire assize of mort d'ancestor
in 1245, we find that the heirs of William de Beaumont and Alice were
their three daughters: Joan, wife of Reyner de Burgh, Alice wife of
Warin son of Hugh, and Ela, wife of Hervey de Stanhou". This implies
both dead by 1245 (and would be quite late if it was just based on the
c1230 death Alice d'Oyri), when William & his 2nd wife Alice de
Drayton were both supposedly alive c1248 when Nesta de Cokefield died.
Jim Weber
Thank you for the great pedigree, much better than anything I have
seen. It makes a lot of sense.
There are a few niggling questions.
1. The first is the one that you mentioned: All of William II's lands
from his father & mother seemed to go to his daughters (actually I
only know of the ones for Alice wife of Warin Fitz Hugh). While I
find none of the lands mentioned for his sons, Godfrey & John, being
other than those attributable to Alice de Drayton (and her cousin
Nesta de Cokefield)'s inheritance.
2. John Watson cited: "From a Lincolnshire assize of mort d'ancestor
in 1245, we find that the heirs of William de Beaumont and Alice were
their three daughters: Joan, wife of Reyner de Burgh, Alice wife of
Warin son of Hugh, and Ela, wife of Hervey de Stanhou". This implies
both dead by 1245 (and would be quite late if it was just based on the
c1230 death Alice d'Oyri), when William & his 2nd wife Alice de
Drayton were both supposedly alive c1248 when Nesta de Cokefield died.
Jim Weber
TJ Booth
May 21, 2012, 5:03:03 PM5/21/12
to GenMedieval
John,
Thanks for the correction. I now recall your 5 May post but its contents
escaped me this last week - likely jet lag since I was on holiday 5 May and
it was left for later review given it seemed a puzzle and the database was
at home.
There are 3 Final Concord documents for the Gedeney property that were cited
in your 20 Mar 2011 post.[1] You interpreted them then - I'd thought
correctly - as indicating that Lucy m. John Picot was the dau. of Warin Fitz
Hugh and Alice de Bellomonte.
Going back and re-reading the final concords, I commend you for revisiting
them. There is indeed no evidence in them that Lucy who m. John Picot was
the dau of Warin Fitz Hugh and Alice de Bellomonte. Instead, the evidence in
the last 1249 final concord [2] would seem best interpreted as indicating
that both Lucy and Ida (m. Godfrey de Mylers) were Warin and Alice's daus -
in - law, with both sons deceased.. Lucy's last name is thus unknown.
For each to possess a dower interest 'of the inheritance of Alice', the
likely scenario would be 1) Alice is granted/inherits an interest in Gedeney
and other properties, perhaps on her marriage with Warin; 2) Warin and Alice
have a son and heir who is granted Gedeney, he m. Lucy (or Ida) and then
dsp, leaving her with a dower interest; and 3) Warin and Alice have a
younger son who is then granted Gedeney, he m. Ida (or Lucy) but d. bef
1249, also leaving his wife a dower interest in the property. The property
then reverts back to Warin and Alice, who in 1249 'gift' (for 100 pounds)
their 'interest' in Gedeney to Roger de Thurkelby subject to the 2 dowers.
This same scenario would seem consistent with the slightly later 1260 VCH
Sussex record [3] involving Fulking, the only difference being there is no
mention of Ida as holding a dower interest. That lack would be explained if
one concludes Ida was then d. Lucy's husband would need to have been granted
both Gedeney and Fulking for Lucy to have both dower interests.
It is unclear if Warin Fitz Hugh and Alice de Bellomonte left any issue
given there were only dower interests mentioned in 1249. As you suggest, if
Warin Fitz Hugh d. bef 1260, his widow would have had time to m. John de
Scalariis/Scalers and take her interest in Fulking with her. That interest
would still be subject to Lucy's dower interest if were granted similarly to
Gedeney.
This would seem a simpler scenario than having Lucy m. a previously unknown
Bellomonte son who dsp. It is a bit clouded because it is unclear why Alice
had Gedeney and Fulking to the apparent exclusion of her sisters. Maybe
there some were grants or exhanges of 1/3 interests for larger ones - or her
'rights in Gedeney' were just a 1/3 interest at that point. Likely 'rights
to Gedeney' grew as heirs d. out and/or sisters exchanged shares. We do know
Nicholas de Burgh, Alice's nephew, held no interests in Gedeney or Fulking
in 1297, when John de Bellomonte was his heir, so there may well have been
some early partitioning. If John was heir, this also suggests Alice de
Bellomonte had no descendants in 1297. [4]
Would appreciate your and other's thoughts/corrections. Hopefully some
additional records may surface to help clarify this.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
________
[1]
archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2011-03/1300605571
[2] C.W. Foster; 'Final Concords for Lincs: 34 Henry III (Case 130, File
34)', Final Concords of the County of Lincoln: 1244-1272 (1920), pp. 51-63.
URL: www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53622
No. 2. At Westminster; from St. Martin in fifteen days, 34 Henry III, [25
November, 1249]. Between Roger de Thurkelby, querent, and Warin son of Hugh,
and Alice his wife, impedients, of 1 messuage and 33 acres of land in
Gedeneye, and of 7s. 6d. of rent in Quappelade and Holebech.
Plea of warranty of charter. Warin and Alice have acknowledged the land
and rent with all their appurtenances, as in the advowson of the church,
demesnes, rents, wards, reliefs, escheats, homages and services of free men,
villeinages, meadows, pastures and marshes and all other things which to the
said land and rent belong, to wit, whatsoever Warin and Alice heretofore
held in the said vills, without any retainment, to be the right of Roger as
those which he has of their gift: to hold to Roger and his heirs of Warin
and Alice and the heirs of Alice forever; rendering therefor yearly one pair
of white gloves or one halfpenny at Easter; and doing therefor to the chief
lords of that fee for Warin and Alice and the heirs of Alice the foreign
service which to the tenements belong for all service and demand.And,
moreover, Warin and Alice have granted for themselves and the heirs of Alice
that all the land and tenements which Godfrey de Mylers and Ida his wife and
John Pycot and Lucy his wife held as the dower of Ida and Lucy in the said
vills on the day on which this concord was made, of the inheritance of
Alice, and which, after the death of Ida and Lucy, ought to revert to Alice
and her heirs as the purparty of Alice shall, after their death, remain to
Roger and his heirs: to hold, together with the lands and tenements which
remain to them by this concord, of Warin and Alice and the heirs of Alice by
the said services, for ever.
And Warin and Alice and the heirs of Alice shall warrant, acquit and
defend to Roger and his heirs all the tenements for the said services
against all men, excepting the earl of Albemarl and his heirs in respect of
certain suit if it is due to them in respect of the tenements, for ever. And
for this Roger has given Warin and Alice 100l. sterling.
[3] VCH Sussex, VII:202-4: "Soon after the Conquest, land in FULKING was
Thanks for the correction. I now recall your 5 May post but its contents
escaped me this last week - likely jet lag since I was on holiday 5 May and
it was left for later review given it seemed a puzzle and the database was
at home.
There are 3 Final Concord documents for the Gedeney property that were cited
in your 20 Mar 2011 post.[1] You interpreted them then - I'd thought
correctly - as indicating that Lucy m. John Picot was the dau. of Warin Fitz
Hugh and Alice de Bellomonte.
Going back and re-reading the final concords, I commend you for revisiting
them. There is indeed no evidence in them that Lucy who m. John Picot was
the dau of Warin Fitz Hugh and Alice de Bellomonte. Instead, the evidence in
the last 1249 final concord [2] would seem best interpreted as indicating
that both Lucy and Ida (m. Godfrey de Mylers) were Warin and Alice's daus -
in - law, with both sons deceased.. Lucy's last name is thus unknown.
For each to possess a dower interest 'of the inheritance of Alice', the
likely scenario would be 1) Alice is granted/inherits an interest in Gedeney
and other properties, perhaps on her marriage with Warin; 2) Warin and Alice
have a son and heir who is granted Gedeney, he m. Lucy (or Ida) and then
dsp, leaving her with a dower interest; and 3) Warin and Alice have a
younger son who is then granted Gedeney, he m. Ida (or Lucy) but d. bef
1249, also leaving his wife a dower interest in the property. The property
then reverts back to Warin and Alice, who in 1249 'gift' (for 100 pounds)
their 'interest' in Gedeney to Roger de Thurkelby subject to the 2 dowers.
This same scenario would seem consistent with the slightly later 1260 VCH
Sussex record [3] involving Fulking, the only difference being there is no
mention of Ida as holding a dower interest. That lack would be explained if
one concludes Ida was then d. Lucy's husband would need to have been granted
both Gedeney and Fulking for Lucy to have both dower interests.
It is unclear if Warin Fitz Hugh and Alice de Bellomonte left any issue
given there were only dower interests mentioned in 1249. As you suggest, if
Warin Fitz Hugh d. bef 1260, his widow would have had time to m. John de
Scalariis/Scalers and take her interest in Fulking with her. That interest
would still be subject to Lucy's dower interest if were granted similarly to
Gedeney.
This would seem a simpler scenario than having Lucy m. a previously unknown
Bellomonte son who dsp. It is a bit clouded because it is unclear why Alice
had Gedeney and Fulking to the apparent exclusion of her sisters. Maybe
there some were grants or exhanges of 1/3 interests for larger ones - or her
'rights in Gedeney' were just a 1/3 interest at that point. Likely 'rights
to Gedeney' grew as heirs d. out and/or sisters exchanged shares. We do know
Nicholas de Burgh, Alice's nephew, held no interests in Gedeney or Fulking
in 1297, when John de Bellomonte was his heir, so there may well have been
some early partitioning. If John was heir, this also suggests Alice de
Bellomonte had no descendants in 1297. [4]
Would appreciate your and other's thoughts/corrections. Hopefully some
additional records may surface to help clarify this.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
________
[1]
[2] C.W. Foster; 'Final Concords for Lincs: 34 Henry III (Case 130, File
34)', Final Concords of the County of Lincoln: 1244-1272 (1920), pp. 51-63.
URL: www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53622
No. 2. At Westminster; from St. Martin in fifteen days, 34 Henry III, [25
November, 1249]. Between Roger de Thurkelby, querent, and Warin son of Hugh,
and Alice his wife, impedients, of 1 messuage and 33 acres of land in
Gedeneye, and of 7s. 6d. of rent in Quappelade and Holebech.
Plea of warranty of charter. Warin and Alice have acknowledged the land
and rent with all their appurtenances, as in the advowson of the church,
demesnes, rents, wards, reliefs, escheats, homages and services of free men,
villeinages, meadows, pastures and marshes and all other things which to the
said land and rent belong, to wit, whatsoever Warin and Alice heretofore
held in the said vills, without any retainment, to be the right of Roger as
those which he has of their gift: to hold to Roger and his heirs of Warin
and Alice and the heirs of Alice forever; rendering therefor yearly one pair
of white gloves or one halfpenny at Easter; and doing therefor to the chief
lords of that fee for Warin and Alice and the heirs of Alice the foreign
service which to the tenements belong for all service and demand.And,
moreover, Warin and Alice have granted for themselves and the heirs of Alice
that all the land and tenements which Godfrey de Mylers and Ida his wife and
John Pycot and Lucy his wife held as the dower of Ida and Lucy in the said
vills on the day on which this concord was made, of the inheritance of
Alice, and which, after the death of Ida and Lucy, ought to revert to Alice
and her heirs as the purparty of Alice shall, after their death, remain to
Roger and his heirs: to hold, together with the lands and tenements which
remain to them by this concord, of Warin and Alice and the heirs of Alice by
the said services, for ever.
And Warin and Alice and the heirs of Alice shall warrant, acquit and
defend to Roger and his heirs all the tenements for the said services
against all men, excepting the earl of Albemarl and his heirs in respect of
certain suit if it is due to them in respect of the tenements, for ever. And
for this Roger has given Warin and Alice 100l. sterling.
[3] VCH Sussex, VII:202-4: "Soon after the Conquest, land in FULKING was
held by Godfrey de Bellomonte, and in 1286 Robert Aguilun died seised of a
tenement in Perching, formerly of Sir William Beaumund... This was probably
the manor of Fulking held by John de Scalariis and his wife Alice. They, in
1260, released to Robert Aguilun all their rights in two-thirds of the
manor, with the reversion of the remaining third, held by John Pycot and his
wife Lucy as her dower of the inheritance of Alice. In 1261 Robert Aguilun's
right in one-third of the manor was recognized by Robert de Castre and his
wife Joan."
[4] 'Close Rolls, Edward I: July 1297', Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward
tenement in Perching, formerly of Sir William Beaumund... This was probably
the manor of Fulking held by John de Scalariis and his wife Alice. They, in
1260, released to Robert Aguilun all their rights in two-thirds of the
manor, with the reversion of the remaining third, held by John Pycot and his
wife Lucy as her dower of the inheritance of Alice. In 1261 Robert Aguilun's
right in one-third of the manor was recognized by Robert de Castre and his
wife Joan."
I: volume 4: 1296-1302 (1906), pp. 38-52. URL:
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=96727
July 2. 1297. Westminster. To the sheriff of Norfolk. Order to cause John
de Bello Monte, kinsman and heir of Nicholas son of Reyner, to have seisin
of 100s. of yearly rent in Congeham, Geyton and Grymeston, which Thomas de
Weylond, who abjured the realm for felony, held, as the king learns by
inquisition taken by the sheriff that the rent has been in the king's hands
for a year and a day, and that Thomas held it of Nicholas, and that William
Berry had the king's year and day, for which he ought to answer to the king.
Weylond, who abjured the realm for felony, held, as the king learns by
inquisition taken by the sheriff that the rent has been in the king's hands
for a year and a day, and that Thomas held it of Nicholas, and that William
Berry had the king's year and day, for which he ought to answer to the king.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Watson" <watso...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
From: "John Watson" <watso...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: William de Beaumont, of Drayton, & his wife Joan,
TJ Booth
May 22, 2012, 1:50:42 PM5/22/12
to GenMedieval
Jim,
Thanks for your comments. We live in a golden age for medieval research,
since the internet and digitization is making records far more accessible
and easier to search than was possible just decades ago, and SGM promotes
sharing unpublished research. Blomfield and others worked wonders with what
they had, but there were no internet or website search engines then.
Re point #1. Good observation - I agree there aren't any identifiable lands
from the Bellomonte side that Godfrey inherited. The most likely explanation
is that William II granted all his lands to his daus by Alicia d'Oyri bef
his 2nd marriage. We know he granted some part of Gedeney (Alice's in 1241)
to John d'Oyri before his daus and their husbands concurred [1]. Alicia de
Drayton was apparently childless and in her mid 30's when she m. William II
so there was likely a question of any more children, Drayton might well
satisfy William II's then needs (abt age 65 in 1245), and Drayton would
still be a good inheritance if the couple did have children. While the
standard inheritance algorithm holds that oldest sons inherit their father's
property, most people don't realize that before Edw I, property grants
before death that avoided inheritance rules were fairly easy to do, were not
uncommon, and were often unrecorded if the property were held of someone
other than the king. Bracton (1210-1268, a contemporary of William II)
stated "the truth is that the donee may grant the property and the land
granted to him to whomsoever he pleases, unless there were some special
provision against alienation at the time of the feoffment (i.e. grant)". The
rules governing alienations (i.e. grants of property) were not changed until
"De Donis Conditionalibus" in 1285, and subinfeudation was not outlawed
(prospectively) until 1290 with the 'Quia Emptores' statute.
Re point #2, the death date for William II is critical, and my 20 May
pedigree erred in stating that William II d. bef 1245, which is the date
on the record you cite. Reviewing the records again, Alicia D'Oyri was
likely alive in 1241 when she was heir of Gedeney of her brother [2], but d.
bef 7 May 1245 [1] when the Gedeney property had been granted to John d'Oyri
by William de Bellomonte [no mention of Alice]. My database originally had
William d. bef that date based on that record, but re-reading it there is no
statement he was then d. - only his wife, perhaps a sister of John d'Oyri.
As you note that date allows little time for a second wife and family. One
suspects he made the grant of Gedeney (and likely others) about the time of
his second marriage to provide his then adult children by d'Oyri an early
inheritance, William II expecting to live at Drayton. Although William's
date of death is uncertain, he was certainly alive in 1248 [3] when he was
involved in a dispute about Groton and Semere, his 2nd wife being a co-heir
of Nesta de Cokefield. His death date should be assigned to "aft 17 Oct
1248" based on the last dated related Close Rolls entry [4]. The date is
consistent with son Godfrey's dispute for the same properties in 1272/73,
indicating Godfrey was b. bef 1252 - that is the earliest dated record for
Godfrey. He and his brother John were likely b. in the period 1245-1250,
given that Alicia de Drayton's first husband Gervase was lord of Drayton in
1229/30, so Alicia de Drayton was likely b. around or bef 1210 and her
child-bearing years would be ending about 1250. John was said to be age 40
in his brother's death 1293 IPM so was b. at least by 1252, but more likely
a few years earlier since 40 is such a round number it suggests he was then
age 40 'or more'.
No doubt there are other interpretations, but there is no other way John de
Bellomonte could be 'kinsman and heir' of Nicholas de Burgh in 1297 than for
his father to have m (1) Alicia d'Oyri.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
________
[1] C.W. Foster; 'Final Concords for Lincs: 29 Henry III (Case 130, File
31)', Final Concords of the County of Lincoln: 1244-1272 (1920), pp. 1-16.
URL: www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53619
No. 21. At Lincoln; from Easter in three weeks, 29 Henry III, [7 May,
1245]. Between Reyner de Burgo and Joan his wife, Warin son of Hugh and
Alice his wife, Hervey de Stanhou and Ela his wife, plaintiffs, by William
Gambun put in the place of Hervey and Ela, and John de Oyry, tenant, of 38
acres of land in Gedeney. And between the same plaintiffs, by the said
William Ganbun [sic] put in the place of Hervey and Ela, and the said John,
whom Thomas rector of the church of Gedeney vouched to warrant, of 1½ acres
of land in the same vill.
Assize of mort d'ancestor. The plaintiffs have acknowledged all the land
to be the right of John, as that which he has of the gift of William de
Bello Monte, the father of Joan, Alice and Ela, whose heirs they are: to
hold to John [de Oyry] and his heirs of Reyner and Joan and the heirs of
Joan for ever; rendering therefor yearly one pound of cumin at the Nativity
of the Lord for all service, suit of court, custom and demand. Reyner and
Joan and the heirs of Joan shall warrant the land to John and his heirs. For
this John has given the plaintiffs 10 pounds sterling.
[2] 55 Coram Rege Roll. Mich., 26 H. III [1241/42]. Gedeneye. 401. Egid
books.google.com/books?id=6TtOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA110, Nesta de Cokefield "died
without issue by any of her husbands, about the year 1248, when the King
commanded Edmund, Abbot of St. Edmunds to restore to Bartholomew de Creke,
Ralph de Berners and William de Bellomonte the Manors of Groton and Semere."
[4] H.C. Maxwell Lyte; 'Close Rolls, October 1248', Calendar of Close
Rolls, Henry III: volume 6: 1247-1251 (1922), pp. 120-123. URL:
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=93142
Close Rolls, October 1248 [m. 4d.]
Rex vicecomiti Suff', salutem. Precipe Edmundo abbati Sancti Edmundi quod
juste et sine dilacione reddat Bartholomeo de Crek', Radulfo de Berners et
Willelmo de Bello Monte unam carucatam terre cum pertinenciis, exceptis
duodecim acris terre in Grotene, et excepta advocacione ecclesie ejusdem
ville; et tres carucatas terre cum pertinenciis in Semer', excepta
advocacione ecclesie ejusdem ville. In quas idem abbas non habet ingressum
nisi per Henricum quondam abbatem Sancti Edmundi, predecessorem predicti
abbatis, qui se intrusit in easdem, dum Nesta de Cokefeud', consanguinea
predictorum Bartholomei, Radulfi et Willelmi, cujus heredes ipsi sunt,
agebat in extremis, occasione dimissionis quod Matheus de Leiham, quondam
vir predicte Neste, eodem tempore inde fecit Johanni de Cramavill', sine
assensu et voluntate ipsius Neste, ut dicunt. Et nisi fecerit et iidem
Bartholomeus, Radulfus et Willelmus fecerint te securum de clamio suo
prosequendo etc., summone per bonos summonitores predictum abbatem, quod sit
coram justiciariis nostris apud Lewes in comitatu Sussex' in octabis Sancti
Martini, ostensurus quare non fecerit. Et habeas ibi summonicionem et hoc
breve. Teste me ipso apud Westmonasterium xvij. die Octobris anno regni
nostri xxxij.
<Snip>
Thanks for your comments. We live in a golden age for medieval research,
since the internet and digitization is making records far more accessible
and easier to search than was possible just decades ago, and SGM promotes
sharing unpublished research. Blomfield and others worked wonders with what
they had, but there were no internet or website search engines then.
Re point #1. Good observation - I agree there aren't any identifiable lands
from the Bellomonte side that Godfrey inherited. The most likely explanation
is that William II granted all his lands to his daus by Alicia d'Oyri bef
his 2nd marriage. We know he granted some part of Gedeney (Alice's in 1241)
to John d'Oyri before his daus and their husbands concurred [1]. Alicia de
Drayton was apparently childless and in her mid 30's when she m. William II
so there was likely a question of any more children, Drayton might well
satisfy William II's then needs (abt age 65 in 1245), and Drayton would
still be a good inheritance if the couple did have children. While the
standard inheritance algorithm holds that oldest sons inherit their father's
property, most people don't realize that before Edw I, property grants
before death that avoided inheritance rules were fairly easy to do, were not
uncommon, and were often unrecorded if the property were held of someone
other than the king. Bracton (1210-1268, a contemporary of William II)
stated "the truth is that the donee may grant the property and the land
granted to him to whomsoever he pleases, unless there were some special
provision against alienation at the time of the feoffment (i.e. grant)". The
rules governing alienations (i.e. grants of property) were not changed until
"De Donis Conditionalibus" in 1285, and subinfeudation was not outlawed
(prospectively) until 1290 with the 'Quia Emptores' statute.
Re point #2, the death date for William II is critical, and my 20 May
pedigree erred in stating that William II d. bef 1245, which is the date
on the record you cite. Reviewing the records again, Alicia D'Oyri was
likely alive in 1241 when she was heir of Gedeney of her brother [2], but d.
bef 7 May 1245 [1] when the Gedeney property had been granted to John d'Oyri
by William de Bellomonte [no mention of Alice]. My database originally had
William d. bef that date based on that record, but re-reading it there is no
statement he was then d. - only his wife, perhaps a sister of John d'Oyri.
As you note that date allows little time for a second wife and family. One
suspects he made the grant of Gedeney (and likely others) about the time of
his second marriage to provide his then adult children by d'Oyri an early
inheritance, William II expecting to live at Drayton. Although William's
date of death is uncertain, he was certainly alive in 1248 [3] when he was
involved in a dispute about Groton and Semere, his 2nd wife being a co-heir
of Nesta de Cokefield. His death date should be assigned to "aft 17 Oct
1248" based on the last dated related Close Rolls entry [4]. The date is
consistent with son Godfrey's dispute for the same properties in 1272/73,
indicating Godfrey was b. bef 1252 - that is the earliest dated record for
Godfrey. He and his brother John were likely b. in the period 1245-1250,
given that Alicia de Drayton's first husband Gervase was lord of Drayton in
1229/30, so Alicia de Drayton was likely b. around or bef 1210 and her
child-bearing years would be ending about 1250. John was said to be age 40
in his brother's death 1293 IPM so was b. at least by 1252, but more likely
a few years earlier since 40 is such a round number it suggests he was then
age 40 'or more'.
No doubt there are other interpretations, but there is no other way John de
Bellomonte could be 'kinsman and heir' of Nicholas de Burgh in 1297 than for
his father to have m (1) Alicia d'Oyri.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
________
31)', Final Concords of the County of Lincoln: 1244-1272 (1920), pp. 1-16.
URL: www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53619
No. 21. At Lincoln; from Easter in three weeks, 29 Henry III, [7 May,
1245]. Between Reyner de Burgo and Joan his wife, Warin son of Hugh and
Alice his wife, Hervey de Stanhou and Ela his wife, plaintiffs, by William
Gambun put in the place of Hervey and Ela, and John de Oyry, tenant, of 38
acres of land in Gedeney. And between the same plaintiffs, by the said
William Ganbun [sic] put in the place of Hervey and Ela, and the said John,
whom Thomas rector of the church of Gedeney vouched to warrant, of 1½ acres
of land in the same vill.
Assize of mort d'ancestor. The plaintiffs have acknowledged all the land
to be the right of John, as that which he has of the gift of William de
Bello Monte, the father of Joan, Alice and Ela, whose heirs they are: to
hold to John [de Oyry] and his heirs of Reyner and Joan and the heirs of
Joan for ever; rendering therefor yearly one pound of cumin at the Nativity
of the Lord for all service, suit of court, custom and demand. Reyner and
Joan and the heirs of Joan shall warrant the land to John and his heirs. For
this John has given the plaintiffs 10 pounds sterling.
[2] 55 Coram Rege Roll. Mich., 26 H. III [1241/42]. Gedeneye. 401. Egid
de Gousel versus William de Bellomonte and Alicia his wife-11 acres of land
etc. in Gedeneye as his share of the inheritance of Galfr' de Ory his uncle
and brother of the said Alicia in Gedney.
[3] per Copinger p. 110 @
etc. in Gedeneye as his share of the inheritance of Galfr' de Ory his uncle
and brother of the said Alicia in Gedney.
books.google.com/books?id=6TtOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA110, Nesta de Cokefield "died
without issue by any of her husbands, about the year 1248, when the King
commanded Edmund, Abbot of St. Edmunds to restore to Bartholomew de Creke,
Ralph de Berners and William de Bellomonte the Manors of Groton and Semere."
[4] H.C. Maxwell Lyte; 'Close Rolls, October 1248', Calendar of Close
Rolls, Henry III: volume 6: 1247-1251 (1922), pp. 120-123. URL:
www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=93142
Close Rolls, October 1248 [m. 4d.]
Rex vicecomiti Suff', salutem. Precipe Edmundo abbati Sancti Edmundi quod
juste et sine dilacione reddat Bartholomeo de Crek', Radulfo de Berners et
Willelmo de Bello Monte unam carucatam terre cum pertinenciis, exceptis
duodecim acris terre in Grotene, et excepta advocacione ecclesie ejusdem
ville; et tres carucatas terre cum pertinenciis in Semer', excepta
advocacione ecclesie ejusdem ville. In quas idem abbas non habet ingressum
nisi per Henricum quondam abbatem Sancti Edmundi, predecessorem predicti
abbatis, qui se intrusit in easdem, dum Nesta de Cokefeud', consanguinea
predictorum Bartholomei, Radulfi et Willelmi, cujus heredes ipsi sunt,
agebat in extremis, occasione dimissionis quod Matheus de Leiham, quondam
vir predicte Neste, eodem tempore inde fecit Johanni de Cramavill', sine
assensu et voluntate ipsius Neste, ut dicunt. Et nisi fecerit et iidem
Bartholomeus, Radulfus et Willelmus fecerint te securum de clamio suo
prosequendo etc., summone per bonos summonitores predictum abbatem, quod sit
coram justiciariis nostris apud Lewes in comitatu Sussex' in octabis Sancti
Martini, ostensurus quare non fecerit. Et habeas ibi summonicionem et hoc
breve. Teste me ipso apud Westmonasterium xvij. die Octobris anno regni
nostri xxxij.
<Snip>
Jim Weber
May 22, 2012, 8:56:40 PM5/22/12
to
I think your arguments are good: the Burgh uncle relation to the Oyri
family (as well as the Drayton memorial to William & Joan) are
explained with your line.
In fact I was just cleaning up my notes on the 2 William de Beaumont/
Bellomonte who m. Alice d'Oyri & Alice de Drayton in order to merge
them into 1 person when I discovered another transaction which I had
previously copied from A2A:
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Transaction from Suffolk Records Office, Ipswich Branch:
Reference: HD 1538/257/4
Feoffment
Creation dates: n.d.[early-mid 13c.]
Physical characteristics: Equestrian seal
Language: Latin
Scope and Content
1. William de Bello monte
2. John de Bello monte, his son
For homage and service, (1) to (2), all his land and tenement in towns
of Rutham [Rougham], Bekketun [Bacton] and Heggeseth [Hessett], except
Adam Hemming with his tenement; to hold to (2) and heirs of his body
lawfully begotten, of (1) and heirs, paying 1 pair of gloves annually
to (1) and accustomed services to chief lords of fees. Warranty
clause.
Witnesses: Sir Robert de Nortun', Sir Thomas de Lutun', John de
Pakkeham, William de Nekketun', William Le Larg', Hervey de Heggeseth,
William de Stowe, Thomas de La Hum', John del Herst, Stephen de La
Hum', Geoffrey the clerk of Heggeseth, William de La Hum', Geoffrey
the clerk of Bekketun' and others.
-------
I don't like to keep coming up with issues, but they do pop up. The
estimate of early-mid 13th century is certainly not exact, and I could
not easily identify any of the witnesses in order to help arrive at a
date. But if the above transaction required John to be of age (does
it?), then it could be pushing the envelope.
The lands could well be part of the Nesta inheritance, which William
was distributing to his son John. But this brings up another
question: William may have been "lord" of the lands inherited by his
wife, but doesn't it usually require the consent of his wife to
partake in a transaction involving them, even if it is to subinfeudate
(I guess that's the term) them to an eventual heir. And if Alice de
Drayton was dead, what are William's rights? In other words, it seems
as if William was acting as if he held the lands in the above
transaction and also in 1248 when he was involved in the dispute with
the Bishop over possession of some of Nesta's lands.
Hopefully the last issue/question,
Jim Weber
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