Ancestry Of Martha Harper

[WADP]

I've just come across an incredible ancestry claimed for one Martha Harper, the supposed daughter of William Harper and Susan Pickering. Martha was the wife of John Proctor. She has two connections to the Salem Witchcraft Trials through her son John and the mother of her grandson's wife, Jane Martin. I haven't had a chance to check it out as I've just now come across it and was wondering if anyone has come across this? To say that I am skeptical of such claims (going back to European aristocracy and, probably, royalty) is an understatement. However, sometimes fantastic claims do turn out to be true.

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

A terça-feira, 2 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 03:23:26 UTC, pdaw...@gmail.com escreveu:
> I've just come across an incredible ancestry claimed for one Martha Harper, the supposed daughter of William Harper and Susan Pickering. Martha was the wife of John Proctor. She has two connections to the Salem Witchcraft Trials through her son John and the mother of her grandson's wife, Jane Martin. I haven't had a chance to check it out as I've just now come across it and was wondering if anyone has come across this? To say that I am skeptical of such claims (going back to European aristocracy and, probably, royalty) is an understatement. However, sometimes fantastic claims do turn out to be true.

Could you, please, tell us what the supposed ancestry is?

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

By that, I mean telling us what the line back to nobility is.

[Will Johnson]

I would say that this is the relevant page

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LR61-G4M

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 10:16:26 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> I would say that this is the relevant page
>
> https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LR61-G4M

Be careful of this line. It's got some pretty obviously bad genealogy. See for example "Sir William Beauchamp Bart Proctor" - ?? And very skimpy on sources...

There may be some fragments of possibly correct lines in this, but they've been connected together in ways that are definitely not supportable. I wouldn't waste much time trying to figure out what's good and what's bad. I found at least half a dozen questionable connections in 10 minutes or so.

[WADP]

Here's the link: https://www.geni.com/people/Martha-Proctor/5660075566670047027

[WADP]

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 8:19:44 PM UTC-7, pdaw...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here's the link:
>
> https://www.geni.com/people/Martha-Proctor/5660075566670047027

I'll leave it to someone else to wander through this Geni tree to see if there is any possible royal ancestry here. I find the tree format here very hard to use - at least compared to other formats like Family Search and Genealogics.

Can Geni provide a family tree with just ancestors of the root person and not all the collateral descendant branches?

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 04-11-2021 om 04:56 schreef John Higgins:

Not that I know, but when you pin a person, you can let Geni figure out any relationship, like this one:

Martha Proctor
→
William Harper
her father
→
Cecilia "Cecily" Harpur - Collier
his mother
→
Joyce Collier
her mother
→
Thomas Skrymsher (Scrimshire)
her father
→
Alice Skrymsher
his mother
→
Thomas Widdrington
her father
→
Elizabet Widdrington
his mother
→
Sir Thomas Grey, Kt., of Werke and Heaton
her father
→
Joan (Jane) de Mowbray
his mother
→
Elizabeth de Segrave, Baroness de Mowbray
her mother
→
Margaret, Duchess of Norfolk
her mother
→
Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk
her father
→
Edward I "Longshanks", King of England

[Will Johnson]

You are missing a generation

Elizabeth (Grey) Widdrington was the daughter of
Thomas /Grey/ of Heton and Warke; Knt
d 5 Aug 1415 executed; North Gate, Southampton, Hampshire, England
by his wife Alice de /Neville/

This Thomas was the son of
Thomas de /Grey/ of Berwick and Chillingham; Knt
"aged 10" 1369
by his wife
Joan (aka Catherine) de /Mowbray/
living in 1402

[Will Johnson]

So the most obvious place this line breaks is at Thomas Widdrington

Sir Roger Widdrington and his wife Elizabeth Grey *did* have a son named Thomas, but he died as a child
no marriage, no children...

See Vis York 1563 "Thomas died young"

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 04-11-2021 om 19:35 schreef Will Johnson:

> You are missing a generation
>
> Elizabeth (Grey) Widdrington was the daughter of
> Thomas /Grey/ of Heton and Warke; Knt
> d 5 Aug 1415 executed; North Gate, Southampton, Hampshire, England
> by his wife Alice de /Neville/
>
> This Thomas was the son of
> Thomas de /Grey/ of Berwick and Chillingham; Knt
> "aged 10" 1369
> by his wife
> Joan (aka Catherine) de /Mowbray/
> living in 1402
>

I'm not. These persons are all there, but you need to take into account that Geni often displays women by their married name, if they were entered that way.

This is something that I really don't like, but on Geni it's the reality that I have to live with. It's rather confusing, I know, because it cause Elizabeth Grey to be displayed as Elizabet Widdrington.

So much for the American way ...

cheers,

Enno

[John Higgins]

It seems that you cannot read the full profiles in Geni (including sources if there re any) unless you're a paid-up member of Geni. Understandable but frustrating.

Let me re-state the questionable part of the descent in the more customary format, using what appears to be Geni's idea of the line - and using maiden names instead of married names for the women:

1. Elizabeth Grey, m. Sir Roger Widdrington
2. Thomas Widdrington, m.
3. Alice Widdrington, m. William Skrymsher
4. Thomas Skrymsher, m. Alice "Skrymsher" [no maiden name given]
5. Joyce Skrymsher/Scrimshire, m. Sir Robert Terrell Colyer (Collier), of Darlaston
6. Cecilia Collier, m. Thomas Harper, Sr.
7. William Harper, m. Susan "Harper" [no maiden name given - perhaps Pickering?]
8. Martha Harper; m. Robert Proctor

From the sources I have available, I show that Thomas Widdrngton d. sp. Although I can find sources for the families in 3 through 5, the sources do not support the persons indicated to be in those families. I know nothing about generations 6 through 8.

Can anyone provide any documentation for these steps in the descent?

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 05-11-2021 om 19:28 schreef John Higgins:

> It seems that you cannot read the full profiles in Geni (including sources if there re any) unless you're a paid-up member of Geni. Understandable but frustrating.

And not true. I've been a member since years, and currently have a basic account (free). And although membership has its priveleges, you can do almost everything when you're invited by a member to work together. And once invited, you can edit all profiles connected to you in any way.

> Let me re-state the questionable part of the descent in the more customary format, using what appears to be Geni's idea of the line - and using maiden names instead of married names for the women:
>
> 1. Elizabeth Grey, m. Sir Roger Widdrington
> 2. Thomas Widdrington, m.

Here's his profile

https://www.geni.com/people/Thomas-Widdrington/6000000007605666478

for which you can see all details, if you get yourself a basic account.

There are 4 sources attached, but two are fake, meaning that they refer to profiles on My Heritage, leaving 1 reference to the visitation of Yorkshire. The other one is a picture.

The visitations don't mention a spouse or children, so that part of his profile is probably wrong.

> 3. Alice Widdrington, m. William Skrymsher

https://www.geni.com/people/Alice-Skrymsher/6000000010153897503

No source whatsoever.

> 4. Thomas Skrymsher, m. Alice "Skrymsher" [no maiden name given]
> 5. Joyce Skrymsher/Scrimshire, m. Sir Robert Terrell Colyer (Collier), of Darlaston
> 6. Cecilia Collier, m. Thomas Harper, Sr.
> 7. William Harper, m. Susan "Harper" [no maiden name given - perhaps Pickering?]
> 8. Martha Harper; m. Robert Proctor

I didn't check these, but in case you create an account, here's Martha:

https://www.geni.com/people/Martha-Proctor/5660075566670047027

Note that you can find about everyone by Googling their name with site:geni.com

HTH,

Enno

[John Higgins]

Thanks for suggesting a basic account. I did sign up for one and used it to look at Thomas Widdrington. As you say, the only real "source" given for Thomas Widdrington is the 1563-64 visitation of Yorkshire, which says that Thomas died young and without issue. I checked a few other profiles and and found the only "sources' to be links to My Heritage or Genealogie Online, which I did not pursue.

I don't intend to spend any more time on this. Not worth the effort....

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 05-11-2021 om 19:28 schreef John Higgins:

> Let me re-state the questionable part of the descent in the more customary format, using what appears to be Geni's idea of the line - and using maiden names instead of married names for the women:
>
> 1. Elizabeth Grey, m. Sir Roger Widdrington
> 2. Thomas Widdrington, m.
> 3. Alice Widdrington, m. William Skrymsher
> 4. Thomas Skrymsher, m. Alice "Skrymsher" [no maiden name given]
> 5. Joyce Skrymsher/Scrimshire, m. Sir Robert Terrell Colyer (Collier), of Darlaston
> 6. Cecilia Collier, m. Thomas Harper, Sr.
> 7. William Harper, m. Susan "Harper" [no maiden name given - perhaps Pickering?]
> 8. Martha Harper; m. Robert Proctor
>
> From the sources I have available, I show that Thomas Widdrngton d. sp. Although I can find sources for the families in 3 through 5, the sources do not support the persons indicated to be in those families. I know nothing about generations 6 through 8.

OK, now I have a problem on Geni, because I like to keep things a bit tidy, where possible.

Can anyone provide information about the proper parents for Alice Widdrington? Geni does not allow me to disconnect her from Thomas, unless I provide other parents before disconnecting. There's a weird rule that you can't break the tree.

Regards,

Enno

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 5:00:00 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thanks for suggesting a basic account. I did sign up for one and used it to look at Thomas Widdrington. As you say, the only real "source" given for Thomas Widdrington is the 1563-64 visitation of Yorkshire, which says that Thomas died young and without issue. I checked a few other profiles and and found the only "sources' to be links to My Heritage or Genealogie Online, which I did not pursue.

To add to John's point, the source for the 1563-64 Visitation of Yorkshire volume was an earlier pedigree of the Widdringtons, taken about 1480-85, and printed in 'Visitations of the North Part III: A Visitation of the North of England circa 1480-1500' (Surtees Society 144 (1930)), p. 35:
“Thomas [son of ‘Rogerus Wedrington = Elizabeth Gray’] obijt puer.”

As this pedigree was taken during the lifetime of Sir Gerard Widdrington (d. 1491), elder brother of Thomas, it can be seen as definitive evidence that the Thomas Widdrington who was the son of Roger Widdrington and Elizabeth Gray, died young. He was not married. He did not have a daughter named Alice. He did not have any children at all.

On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 12:54:56 PM UTC-7, enno...@gmail.com wrote:
> Can anyone provide information about the proper parents for Alice Widdrington? Geni does not allow me to disconnect her from Thomas, unless I provide other parents before disconnecting. There's a weird rule that you can't break the tree.

That is a weird rule, Enno. And an unfortunate one. Earlier this year on this newsgroup, Mark (mark66j) made a series of posts in a thread entitled 'Skrymsher of Muskham and North Deighton'. In it, he abstracts the will of Thomas Skrymsher of Norbury (buried 12 Sept 1551), dated 26 January 1550/1, proved 12 February 1551/2:
"I, Thomas Skrymsher of Norbury, Staffordshire, esquire, somewhat sick in body - to be buried in the chancel at Norbury - ... - to my daughter Colyer, £20 for the preferment of her little daughter"
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/IRTcNuwg4yE/m/UjZnwpjqBgAJ

Mark points out that "- a daughter married to - Colyer = Joyce ('Jocosa') Skrymsher, gentlewoman, married Robert Collier, gentleman, at Norbury, 15 January 1542 (P[arish] R[egister])"

I have not researched the Skrymsher family seated at Norbury, Cheshire any earlier than this Thomas Skrymsher (d. 1551), father of Joyce (Skrymsher) Colyer. But read all of Mark's posts in his thread, as they refer to various pedigrees of this Skrymsher family which have been published. I do not know of any evidence that says the mother of this Thomas Skrymsher (d. 1551) was a Widdrington, a Northumberland gentry family which, though it did intermarry with Yorkshire gentry, did not intermarry into the Cheshire gentry at all, in the late 15th & early 16th centuries.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 3:01:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I have not researched the Skrymsher family seated at Norbury, Cheshire any earlier than this Thomas Skrymsher (d. 1551), father of Joyce (Skrymsher) Colyer. But read all of Mark's posts in his thread, as they refer to various pedigrees of this Skrymsher family which have been published. I do not know of any evidence that says the mother of this Thomas Skrymsher (d. 1551) was a Widdrington, a Northumberland gentry family which, though it did intermarry with Yorkshire gentry, did not intermarry into the Cheshire gentry at all, in the late 15th & early 16th centuries.

Whoops! - Apparently the Skrymshers were seated at Norbury, Staffordshire, not Norbury, Cheshire. I didn't realize there are two different Norburys.

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 06-11-2021 om 23:01 schreef Brad Verity:

> That is a weird rule, Enno. And an unfortunate one. Earlier this year on this newsgroup, Mark (mark66j) made a series of posts in a thread entitled 'Skrymsher of Muskham and North Deighton'. In it, he abstracts the will of Thomas Skrymsher of Norbury (buried 12 Sept 1551), dated 26 January 1550/1, proved 12 February 1551/2:
> "I, Thomas Skrymsher of Norbury, Staffordshire, esquire, somewhat sick in body - to be buried in the chancel at Norbury - ... - to my daughter Colyer, £20 for the preferment of her little daughter"
> https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/IRTcNuwg4yE/m/UjZnwpjqBgAJ

It's unfortunate indeed, but I might get around that sometime, when I can connect her husband, William Skrymsher to the big tree, so that it won't break when I disconnect Alice.

I read that, and saw no Alice married to a William Skrymsher, but ...

> I have not researched the Skrymsher family seated at Norbury, Cheshire any earlier than this Thomas Skrymsher (d. 1551), father of Joyce (Skrymsher) Colyer. But read all of Mark's posts in his thread, as they refer to various pedigrees of this Skrymsher family which have been published. I do not know of any evidence that says the mother of this Thomas Skrymsher (d. 1551) was a Widdrington, a Northumberland gentry family which, though it did intermarry with Yorkshire gentry, did not intermarry into the Cheshire gentry at all, in the late 15th & early 16th centuries.

... I found a tree with this Thomas, on Genalogie Online:

https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/house-family/P919.php

But as usual, this one only has another tree as its source, so I can't verify anything.

This one suggests that Alice Widdrington is the same as Elizabeth Starkey.

Weird.

Enno

[Enno Borgsteede]

Op 07-11-2021 om 00:43 schreef Enno Borgsteede:

> ... I found a tree with this Thomas, on Genalogie Online:
>
> https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/house-family/P919.php
>
> But as usual, this one only has another tree as its source, so I can't verify anything.
>
> This one suggests that Alice Widdrington is the same as Elizabeth Starkey.

And it's a mess, because the James Starkey listed here was born 40 years after her.

Looks like I may have better things to do, like concentrating on my own medieval ancestors. :-)

cheers,

Enno