Summary of pro-Relativity and anti-Relativity debate
Tom Potter
"The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
Seekers of wisdom and truth
can browse this summary in order to determine
if the pro-relativity people of the anti-relativity people
are prejudiced in their positions.
Tom Potter
=========
The problem is that General Relativity includes everything,
EXCEPT the main player, man!
Einstein basically took the maths and methods
of stress analysis, and applied them to the universe,
rather than to an uninhabited, inanimate object.
This took one, or a few easily understood
and easy to compute problems,
and lumped them into one huge,
difficult, if not impossible, to solve sausage,
in which the ingredients had to be re-sorted out,
and weighed (Measured/quantized),
and as it eliminated sentient man,
it put the world back into the old auguring mode it was in
before the Lunar Society took Newton's Equations
and used them to forge the Industrial revolution,
General Relativity is a Tower of Babel
that wastes time, money and minds on such
pursuits as time travel, worm holes, gravity waves,
rubber rulers and clocks, etc.
After Newton's model,
there were immediate and rapid advances
in mechanics, astronomy, etc.
After Maxwell's model
there were immediate and rapid advances
in chemistry, electricity, etc.
After Watson's and Crick's DNA model
there were immediate and rapid advances
in medicine, genetics, animal husbandry,
the history of the Earth and Mankind, etc.
Here we are, 100 years after General Relativity
and it continues to generate more hype and heat
than light and advances.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste."
OsherD
======
I agree with Tom Potter.
[Osher to Sam]
If you [Sam] understand General Relativity so well, why do you
keep posting full articles by other people with no or minimal
comment?
Mark L. Fergerson
===============
You're stealing material from Pentcho Valev now?
Eric Gisse
========
With 8 websites, one would think you wouldn't post so much in a
newsgroup that even you admit does not like you.
--------------
Yes Tom, we know. As a salesman, you don't like or even understand
basic science unless it generates a product. As a result, you think
all research is a waste of time. You don't have to keep reminding us
of your ignorance every fucking time you post.
-----------------
Yes--you go on and on with your boiler plate responses every time.
Why, Potter, do you give a shit? You don't understand GTR... Why do
you care? How can you condemn something you don't understand?
---------------
Every time it is more of that boilerplate response tacked on with shit
about how you don't understand relativity.
---------------
Perhaps Tom Potter would get a clue and open a textbook on relativity.
I would post links that give experimental support, but apparently you
can't be bothered to read those.
The whole reason people care about relativity is because it predicts
correctly. Sure certain approximations make the application of the
whole theory an exercise in irritation, but that is no reason to dump
GR into the sea like you seem to desire.
I really wish you would stop posting, Tom. You have no appreciation
for the sciences whatsoever. You do not enjoy science nor do you have
any respect for basic research. You see no utility in understanding
the universe for the sake of understanding - almost every
technological device you own is the product of a theory that was
"useless" at the time. The irony of this is lost on you.
--------------------
GR is the only model that predicts all aspects of gravitation
properly. That is all that is required, and GR suffices. Your
inability to understand an admittedly complicated theory is not the
fault of the theory. Theories such as quantum mechanics are no less
complicated - but you don't bitch about them, even though you have no
chance of understanding them either.
The full implementation of QM requires lots of computer and man hours
- but do you bitch?
-----------------
Yea. You hate science. I get it.
Sam Wormley
===========
Hey, Potter, why do you knock General Relativity, when you don't even
understand it? What's it done to you personally to warrant your scorn?
----------------
In what way is GTR a lousy model? How is it pinching your balls?
-----------------
Yes--you go on and on with your boiler plate responses every time.
Why, Potter, do you give a shit? You don't understand GTR... Why do
you care? How can you condemn something you don't understand?
-----------------
Says, the former salesperson, Potter, who doesn't understand GTR
and can't articulate its use to predict effects on satellite
clocks.
----------------
I'm asking you a question, Potter: Why, Potter, do you give a
shit? Especially since you have no understanding of GTR! Why do
you care? How can you condemn something you don't understand?
-------------
Potter misses the critical point--"GR is the only model that
predicts
all aspects of gravitation properly. That is all that is required,
and
GR suffices".
Not surprising as Potter *fails* to understand GR.
Y.Porat
======
The notion that space is curved
is one of Einstein s biggest flops
hanson
======
GR is a religion, a belief system, that strayed away from the
empirical and
real world physics, as shown in
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wabnigga_saga.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/96c1fde68777bc9f
wherein it says
GR is even worse of a con then is SR, because it is nothing but
circular
dance and playing around with Newton's revered G. As long as Einstein
uses Newton's G in his equations he carries with him , unavoidably,
all the
baggage, the short comings and defects attributed to Newton's G that
REL is trying to get (unsuccessfully) rid of.
BioFreak
=======
GR is only hyped by non-physicist sorry-asses who never
forgave themselves and the world that they chose a
non-physics major once they had the chance. This pit as
well as every vile spot in USA is full of them.
Physicists take one course of it (or two) and then get
busy doing physics. They only hear of GR again from the
sorry-ass "engineer" losers who thought they had the
world and were left looking at themselves as nothing
but card-carrying slaves with a smile.
"me_so_horneee" (The_Man)
========================
How would you know? Angry becuase GR has developed a better method of
cold selling?
> A mind is a terrible thing to waste."
It is a shame what happened to YOURS.
Phineas T Puddleduck
==================
GR works loon. GPS, Hulse Taylor, Pound and Rebka.
Stick to frothing.
--------------------
Whay do you insist on proving your stupidity on a daily basis? Or has
being a salesman all your life rotted your little brain?
-----------------
Poor potter. Such a small little mind.
Y.Porat
======
GR has nothing to do with chemistry
you are parroting and mumbling !!
Don Stockbauer
=============
Hmmmmmmm.......Doesn't it seem like to be deserving of the name
General Relativity should include ALL relationships between all
entities in the Universe (at least out to the causal horizon)?????
--------------
So this is why second order cybernetics needs to be emphasized, where
the observer (The "I") (introspection, self-awareness) is paramount.
--------------
The neat thing about cybernetics is that it helps one combine systems
into a metasystem (although this is usually a self-organization thing,
not under our control). Even works for such systems as relativity and
quantum mechanics, combining them into a unified worldview. And other
such systems, like the nations of the Earth. But it's all too good to
be true.
---------------
It's "interesting" to read Endless Discussions (ED syndrome).
doug
====
> Tom Potter wrote:
> As can be seen from the following excerpt from a paper given at the
> 31st Annual Precise Time and Time Interval (PTTI) Meeting,
> the "gravitational red shift" numbers for
> "both general relativity and the quasi-Newtonian approach"
> yield the same results, as far as frequency shift is concerned.
No. It says the classical shift is half the GTR shift.
This is the abstract of a 1999 meeting. The author does not seem
to believe in relativity and is proposing an experiment to
disprove it. Nothing has shown up since this abstract on the
internet by this author. There is no proof here, only speculation.
Why bother to present this when it just weakens any arguement you
might want to present?
Jeff.Relf
========
How we model time, God and aging, effects our health. Lambda-CDM
employs
G.R., telling us that the energy of the known Universe is being "
spent ".
In General Relativity it's obvious that time is truly a spatial
dimension
( static, parochial, immutable ). It's only _ Pseudo _ randomness that
makes
it seem otherwise.
Regarding Doug's comment:
"No. It says the classical shift is half the GTR shift.",
I must point out that constants involve scaling,
and when models vary by pi, this indicates that
one model was scaled with cycles and the other with radians,
and when models vary by "2", this indicates that
one model was scaled with radius and the other with diameter.
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp/
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
Shubee
> Einstein basically took the maths and methods
> of stress analysis, and applied them to the universe,
> and lumped them into one huge,
> difficult, if not impossible, to solve sausage,
> in which the ingredients had to be re-sorted out,
> and weighed (Measured/quantized),
That is correct. Einstein's inspiration in describing the universe is
directly attributable to his love of sausages.
Shubee
http://www.everythingimportant.org/relativity/special.pdf
karand...@yahoo.com
Scooby DooDoo to Potty : crank to crank.
Sam Wormley
Crackpot Shubert is contradicted by SR! Check his posting record at
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group%3Asci.physics+author%3AInnocent
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group%3Asci.physics+author%3APerspicacious
Eric Gisse
[...]
We know you hate relativity. Nothing you can say or do will change
relativity's status in the physics community.
So why continue bleating?
Bill Hobba
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176086898.0...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> The following is a summary of the posts made to the
> "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
>
> Seekers of wisdom and truth
> can browse this summary in order to determine
> if the pro-relativity people of the anti-relativity people
> are prejudiced in their positions.
>
> Tom Potter
> =========
> The problem is that General Relativity includes everything,
> EXCEPT the main player, man!
So does just about every other theory in physics (the maybe here is quantum
physics - I don't believe it does but there are those who interpret some
perhaps injudicious comments by Von Neumann as requiring it) - and for good
reason. Revisit the foundations of science taught here in Australia to 10
year olds. In particular the tacit assumptions of 'naive realism'.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kochen-specker/
The specifics detailed in the above more advanced topic are obviously not
taught to 10 year olds - but the tacit assumptions of non contextuality and
value definiteness is, ie a world outside ourselves exits independent of us,
is.
Rest of usual rubbish snipped.
Bill
Tom Potter
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1176086898.0...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The following is a summary of the posts made to the
> > "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
>
> > Seekers of wisdom and truth
> > can browse this summary in order to determine
> > if the pro-relativity people of the anti-relativity people
> > are prejudiced in their positions.
>
> >Tom Potter
> > =========
> > The problem is that General Relativity includes everything,
> > EXCEPT the main player, man!
>
> So does just about every other theory in physics (the maybe here is quantum
> physics - I don't believe it does but there are those who interpret some
> perhaps injudicious comments by Von Neumann as requiring it) - and for good
> reason. Revisit the foundations of science taught here in Australia to 10
>
> The specifics detailed in the above more advanced topic are obviously not
> taught to 10 year olds - but the tacit assumptions of non contextuality and
> value definiteness is, ie a world outside ourselves exits independent of us,
> is.
>
> Rest of usual rubbish snipped.
>
> Bill
As can be seen by the web pages of,
and public statements by,
the General Relativity welfare gang,
they fear that their GTR scam is crumbling,
and they will not be able to continue to
be supported by the taxpayers,
and as can be seen by the responses to my posts,
it is obvious that the General Relativity Zombies
(Ignorant people who pretend to be privy to
powerful, esoteric knowledge,
in order to impress other ignorant people.)
are also fear being exposed as ignorant phonies.
I suggest that rational, intelligent folks
should compare the works of the Newton, Maxwell,
and DNA models to the General Relativity model
and consider what models are hyped,
and are supported and promoted with taxpayer dollars,
and what models daily make enormous contributions to mankind.
Dirk Van de moortel
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1176121149.8...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> As can be seen by the web pages of,
> and public statements by,
> the General Relativity welfare gang,
> they fear that their GTR scam is crumbling,
How would an ignoramus like you know about that, Protter?
> and they will not be able to continue to
> be supported by the taxpayers,
>
> and as can be seen by the responses to my posts,
> it is obvious that the General Relativity Zombies
> (Ignorant people who pretend to be privy to
> powerful, esoteric knowledge,
It only looks esoteric to less gifted (aka stupid) people
like you, Protter.
> in order to impress other ignorant people.)
There you go, an ignorant Protter. You got that one right.
> are also fear being exposed as ignorant phonies.
>
> I suggest that rational, intelligent folks
> should compare the works of the Newton, Maxwell,
> and DNA models to the General Relativity model
>
> and consider what models are hyped,
> and are supported and promoted with taxpayer dollars,
> and what models daily make enormous contributions to mankind.
Do you know how many taxpayer dollars it takes to feed
unemployed imbeciles and their ugly female offspring, Protter?
>
> --
> Tom Potter
You forgot a letter there.
Dirk Vdm
Uncle Al
>
> The following is a summary of the posts made to the
> "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
1) GPS works.
2) Idiot.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Androcles
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:461A5616...@hate.spam.net...
> Tom Potter wrote:
>>
>> The following is a summary of the posts made to the
>> "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
> [snip crap]
>
> 1) GPS works.
> 2) Idiot.
1) GPS works.
2) ass, fool, idiot, jackass, mooncalf, moron, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, simple, simpleton, softhead, tomfool, dope, gander, goose. cretin, ding-dong, dip, goof, jerk, nerd, schmo, schmuck, turkey, imbecile, FUCKHEAD.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
maxwell
> Scooby DooDoo to Potty : crank to crank.
Wow, glad you guys don't do movie reviews - giving 5 stars to this
comment as a contribution to science!
Tom Potter
> Tom Potter wrote:
>
> > The following is a summary of the posts made to the
> > "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
>
> [snip crap]
>
> 1) GPS works.
> 2) Idiot.
I was surprised to see that Uncle Al,
like many people,
has been brainwashed to think that General Relativity
is essential to the GPS system.
The fact of the matter is that General Relativity
is not needed to design, operate, and maintain the GPS system,
and plays a trivial, IF ANY, role in the GPS system.
It might be of value to people ignorant of the technologies that
went into the GPS system to examine
what the relative contributions
of some of the technologies were.
Semiconductor technology - 30%
(Fast correlators, small, light weight, low power
comsumption devices are essential to the GPS system.)
Rocket technology - 30%
(You need a way to get the oscillators into orbit)
Communications technology - 15%
(Efficient transmitters and antennas,
and broadband transmitters and receivers are essential.)
Software technology 11%
(Fast, accurate algorithms are needed to perform
the correlations, and compute the co-ordinates of
the receivers from data received.)
Information theory - 9%
(Information theory, compression methods,
pseudo random codes, etc. play a critical role
in the GPS system.
The Doppler effect - 2%
(The Doppler Effect, discovered by Christian Doppler
over 100 years ago, is essential to understanding the
compensation needed in the local oscillator to track
the incoming signal, and it is also used to compute
the velocity of the receiver. The people who hype
General Relativity try to claim credit for the Doppler Effect,
just as they try to claim credit for the Galileo Effect.
Antenna technology - 1%
(Small, light, efficient antennas are essential to the GPS system.)
The Galileo effect - 1%
(Although the people who hype General Relativity claim
that it was necessary to compute the frequency offset in the
GPS oscillators, the effect of acceleration on the period of
oscillators,
discovered over 300 years ago, can be (And was) used to compute
the affect of altitude on the GPS oscillators.)
General Relativity - 0%
(It may be that the "contribution" of General Relativity
was a negative, as the GTR Gurus used 13 complicated, time-consuming,
hacks of GTR to account for the desired frequency offset in the
orbiting
oscillators, when it could be done with one, simple equation
determined by Galileo over 3000 years ago. )
It is interesting to see that the GTR Guru's
don't seem to comprehend why the frequency offset
is DESIRABLE but not essential
to the operation of the GPS system,
and they don't seem to know that the output frequency
of an oscillator can be scaled up or down electronically,
digitally with divider circuits, and
continuously with homodyne devices.
What is important is the stability of the oscillators,
not the absolute frequency, which can be, AND IS,
adjusted to the desired values.
Considering that Uncle Al frequently uses the phrases:
" 1) GPS works.
2) Idiot."
hopefully he will put forth his best argument as to why
General Relativity is essential to the GPS system,
and why it is more essential than the factors I mentioned above.
Eric Gisse
[snip spew]
Nobody cares what a retired salesman thinks about physics. Especially
when the retired salesman has to resort to blatantly false rhetoric.
Androcles
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1176179515.2...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 9, 6:04 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
>> Tom Potter wrote:
>>
>> > The following is a summary of the posts made to the
>> > "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
>>
>> [snip crap]
>>
>> 1) GPS works.
>> 2) Idiot.
>
> I was surprised to see that Uncle Al,
> like many people,
> has been brainwashed to think that General Relativity
> is essential to the GPS system.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
1) Grass is green.
2) Uncle Stooopid is a moron.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Morons/UncleStooopid.htm
Jeff…Relf
You don't like the way the meter and second are defined
( to wit, as counts of periods of a special maser )
but you don't offer anything that's better... Why ?
Red/Blue shifts alter the meter and the second.
Add energy ( e.g. by falling into a gravity well )
and you get a blue shift ( i.e. a shorter S.I. second ).
Subtract energy ( e.g. centrifugal force ) and you get a red shift.
Only G.R. gets the red/blue shifts right,
Newtonian physics is off by a factor of 2.
Sure, G.R. is a tad harder to work with... Why does that bother you ?
G.R. explains the origins of the known Universe,
Newton's stuff doesn't. Would you expunge Darwin as well ?
G.R. explains humanity, Newton's stuff doesn't.
Time is spatial; so what is God, entropy and randomness ?
In conversations were the word " God " is mentioned,
I've found that it often means,
" The higher powers that effect our fate. ".
( e.g. The pseudo arrow of time, a.k.a. pseudo entropy )
Also, religious people tend to be more optimistic than sober-minded,
using euphemisms like " Heavenly Father " instead of " Our Fate ".
If Jesus were alive today he'd be nailed to the cross again
by the same gang of law-obsessed, inhumane government stooges.
So I stay " judgement proof ".
harry
"maxwell" <sp...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1176152276.1...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Exactly - childish comments on crappy postings are worth nothing (and
neither is this comment worth anything!).
Come on, put one star here ;-)
O
I
I
I
I I
I I
Harald
T Wake
"Jeff.Relf" <Jeff...@Yahoo.COM> wrote in message
news:Jeff_Relf_20...@Cotse.NET...
> Hi Tom_Potter,
>
> You don't like the way the meter and second are defined
> ( to wit, as counts of periods of a special maser )
> but you don't offer anything that's better... Why ?
>
> Red/Blue shifts alter the meter and the second.
>
> Add energy ( e.g. by falling into a gravity well )
> and you get a blue shift ( i.e. a shorter S.I. second ).
> Subtract energy ( e.g. centrifugal force ) and you get a red shift.
>
> Only G.R. gets the red/blue shifts right,
> Newtonian physics is off by a factor of 2.
> Sure, G.R. is a tad harder to work with... Why does that bother you ?
>
> G.R. explains the origins of the known Universe,
> Newton's stuff doesn't. Would you expunge Darwin as well ?
>
> G.R. explains humanity, Newton's stuff doesn't.
> Time is spatial; so what is God, entropy and randomness ?
Jeff, that clue still stays just out of reach for you, doesn't it?
Tom Potter
It is interesting to see that Jeff posted that I
"don't like the way the meter and second are defined.",
when I pointed out to him,
that the units, that light speed is measured in,
is a function of the units used,
and that the natural units of light speed
is the dimensionless
time interval per time period.
One can just as correctly express light speed
in furlongs per fortnight,
as they can in meters per second.
And as I pointed out,
the constant "pi" occurs when
one uses radian units rather than cycle units,
and the constant "2" appears when one
uses radian units rather than diameter units.
I must also point out to Jeff,
that the model of the birth of the universe came about when
Hubble discovered that the universe seemed to be expanding,
and that when one extrapolated the rate of expansion backwards,
it appeared that all stars originated at a point about 13 billion
years ago.
In fact, Einstein had to modify his model
to accomodate Hubble's discovery.
Poor Newton was dead,
and didn't have the opportunity to modify his model.
Jeff did make a good point when he suggested that
General Relativity was more of a religion,
than a viable, useful model of reality.
.-- .- -... -. .. --. @.-----.DOT.-- H. Wabnig
Androcles:
>...........
>c = 2AB/(t'A-tA) = 0/0
I always wonder why Androcles considers that beeing 0/0,
especially why he sets ( t'-t) = 0
furthermore, in spite of you and hanson
GPS is relativity corrected, SRT and GR, both of them.
Read what hanson's governement says.
Buy yourself some knowledge:
http://www.navtechgps.com/supply/books.asp?Line=engineering
Get in touch with Einstein:
http://www.navtechgps.com/Newsletters/GPSetc_News_May_14_2004.asp
https://listserv.unb.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208&L=canspace&T=0&P=5139
http://www.satellitecorp.com/GPSRelativitySeminar.htm
Read what hanson's governement says:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/2001SPSPerformanceStandardFINAL.pdf
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/default.htm
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf
from above link for example:
>Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects,
>the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction.
>Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.
Wormleys GPS collection
http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html
hanson and Androcles are full time idiots and notorious liars.
Androcles and hanson, where have your parents been around
9 months before your birth?
w.
Tom Potter
--- -. DOT .- -> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:20:14 GMT, "Androcles"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1176179515.2...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Apr 9, 6:04 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
> >>> Tom Potter wrote:
>
> >>> > The following is a summary of the posts made to the
> >>> > "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
>
> >>> [snip crap]
>
> >>> 1) GPS works.
> >>> 2) Idiot.
>
> >> I was surprised to see that Uncle Al,
> >> like many people,
> >> has been brainwashed to think that General Relativity
> >> is essential to the GPS system.
>
> > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
> >1) Grass is green.
> >2) Uncle Stooopid is a moron.
>
> >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Morons/UncleStooopid.htm
>
> Androcles:
>
> >...........
> >c = 2AB/(t'A-tA) = 0/0
>
> I always wonder why Androcles considers that beeing 0/0,
> especially why he sets ( t'-t) = 0
>
> furthermore, in spite of you and hanson
>
> GPS is relativity corrected, SRT and GR, both of them.
> Read what hanson's governement says.
>
> Buy yourself some knowledge:http://www.navtechgps.com/supply/books.asp?Line=engineering
>
>
> Read what hanson's governement says:http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/2001SPSPerformanceStandardFINA...http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/default.htm
>
> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf
> from above link for example:
>
> >Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects,
> >the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction.
> >Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.
>
>
> hanson and Androcles are full time idiots and notorious liars.
>
> Androcles and hanson, where have your parents been around
> 9 months before your birth?
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wabby, it appears that you didn't read those books,
as that don't make your case.
Maybe you just chewed off the cover, eh?
It can be easily demonstrated
(As I have done in several posts.)
that General Relativity is not essential to the GPS system,
nor is it a FRUITFUL model to use
to compute the affect that acceleration
and velocity have on oscillators and received signals.
One equation, discovered by Galileo over three hundred years ago,
accurately models the frequency offset used,
(But not really needed.) in the GPS system
As can be seen, the General Relativity Charlatans
use 13 hacks of GTR to do compute the offset.
It is interesting to see that Ashby,
the number one GTR Charlatan,
tries to convince folks (Tax granters)
that the frequency outputs derived from the atomic clocks
cannot be adjusted with frequency dividers,
and phase lock and homodyne circuits.
hanson
"H. Wabnig" <.... .-- .- -... -. .. --. @ .- --- -. DOT .- -> who is back
with his wabniggering... wabniggering ferociously and big time
because he still can't see it... since he wabbniggers too much in
news:r21p13purivrnicqt...@4ax.com...
and says
>>
>>"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1176179515.2...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> have been brainwashed... , [but] GR is NOT essential to GPS.
>>
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:20:14 GMT, "Androcles"
> <Engi...@hogwarts.physics.co.uk> wrote:
>> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>>1) Grass is green.
>>2) Uncle Stooopid is a moron.
>> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Morons/UncleStooopid.htm
>
> furthermore, in spite of you and hanson....
> Read what hanson's governement says.
> hanson and Androcles are full time idiots and notorious liars.
> Androcles and hanson, where have your parents been around
> 9 months before your birth?
> w.
>
.... ahahaha... Helmut, Helmut, Helmut. You have been drinking
too much Einstein Dingleberry juice again that you are so numb,
bent, vulgar & uncouth to invoke my government & my parents
in your sorry condition. --- Now, how many times do I have to tell
you to argue with =1= to =8= , including Einstein himself, instead
of with Andro and me. --- Look, Wabbie, here it is again for your
benefit; here where your wabniggering has been immortalized:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wabnigga_saga.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/96c1fde68777bc9f
Take to heart what your idol Einsetin said in =3=, in the above links.
Be an admirer of Einstein's insight in =3= instead you moving ever
closer to your master's sphincter... or as you say "Arschloch".
But if you can't help yourself, Wabbie, then enjoy the warmth in there,
Wabbie, and its darkness.. or even better, crawl deep into it and
find the light for you in there: the Einsteinian bio-luminescence.
Here is Uncle Al showing you how to do it:
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/sunshine.jpg
Thanks for the laughs, Wabbie, and don't post when you drink.
ahahaha... ahahahanson
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It can be easily demonstrated
> (As I have done in several posts.)
> that General Relativity is not essential to the GPS system,
> nor is it a FRUITFUL model to use
> to compute the affect that acceleration
> and velocity have on oscillators and received signals.
>
> One equation, discovered by Galileo over three hundred years ago,
> accurately models the frequency offset used,
> (But not really needed.) in the GPS system
Post proof.
--
Got mail? I did ;-) Three and counting.
Got proof? Not yet, still waiting.
Eric Gisse
>
> > Read what hanson's governement says:http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/2001SPSPerformanceStandardFINA...
>
> > from above link for example:
>
> > >Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects,
> > >the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction.
> > >Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.
>
> > Wormleys GPS collectionhttp://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html
>
> > hanson and Androcles are full time idiots and notorious liars.
>
> > Androcles and hanson, where have your parents been around
> > 9 months before your birth?
> > w.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Wabby, it appears that you didn't read those books,
> as that don't make your case.
When was the last time you read a book, crackpotter?
>
> Maybe you just chewed off the cover, eh?
>
> It can be easily demonstrated
> (As I have done in several posts.)
Never to the satisfaction of anyone but yourself...
> that General Relativity is not essential to the GPS system,
> nor is it a FRUITFUL model to use
> to compute the affect that acceleration
> and velocity have on oscillators and received signals.
Yea, isn't it nice to know why the correction is needed rather than
sticking it in ad-hoc?
>
> One equation, discovered by Galileo over three hundred years ago,
> accurately models the frequency offset used,
> (But not really needed.) in the GPS system
Galileo never used c, idiot. That equation is not his.
>
> As can be seen, the General Relativity Charlatans
> use 13 hacks of GTR to do compute the offset.
Oh look, once again you bring out the "13 hacks". PUT UP OR SHUT UP,
CRACKPOTTER.
>
> It is interesting to see that Ashby,
> the number one GTR Charlatan,
> tries to convince folks (Tax granters)
> that the frequency outputs derived from the atomic clocks
> cannot be adjusted with frequency dividers,
> and phase lock and homodyne circuits.
Idiot. The whole point is that so nobody has to DO THAT.
My god, do you really think you are anything other than a salesman?
Sam Wormley
> It can be easily demonstrated (As I have done in several posts.)
> that General Relativity is not essential to the GPS system,
> nor is it a FRUITFUL model to use to compute the affect that acceleration
> and velocity have on oscillators and received signals.
>
No theory *makes* the universe behave the way she does, but GTR
is the only theory that accurately predicts the correct values
for phenomena such as
o precession of orbits
o the relativistic effects on satellite clocks
o gravitational lensing
o frame dragging--where a rotating massive object "drags" space-time along with its rotation
o etc.
Contrary to Potter's spew, general relativity remains a very fruitful
theory of physics and provides GPS engineers and scientists with the
correct corrections for satellite clocks.
Poor pathetic Potter--he'll probably die sputtering and choking on GTR.
Tom Potter
wrote:
> In article <1176301648.173084.258...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It can be easily demonstrated
> > (As I have done in several posts.)
> > that General Relativity is not essential to the GPS system,
> > nor is it a FRUITFUL model to use
> > to compute the affect that acceleration
> > and velocity have on oscillators and received signals.
>
> > One equation, discovered by Galileo over three hundred years ago,
> > accurately models the frequency offset used,
> > (But not really needed.) in the GPS system
>
> Post proof.
As can be seen, "Puddleduck", like most people,
has been conditioned to give credit for the GPS frequency offset
to the wrong person.
A frequency offset for the **Galileo** effect is built into the
clocks.
(Although the frequency offset is not really required,
and the Charlatans that hype General Relativity
do not even seem to comprehend why the offset is used.)
Galileo Effect - Affect of acceleration on oscillating systems.
Hubble Effect - Affect of distance on oscillating systems.
Doppler Effect - Affect of velocity on oscillating systems.
It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
compute the GPS oscillator offset,
when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
does it just fine.
The Doppler Effect is not used to offset the oscillators
as the relative velocity between the birds and receivers
is constantly changing, and the Hubble Effect is not compensated for
because it is too small to be a factor.
The "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation is:
f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
where "g" is about 9.8 meters per seconds^2
"distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
and "C" is about 300,000,000 meters per second,
in the case of the GPS system in Earth orbit.
Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444,
and subtracting one (1.0..) to get the difference,
we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the number used
in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
of the "P code" offset.
Over 200 years ago, England sent ships all
over the world with standard pendulums
to measure the number of swings for sunrise to sunrise
Newton used this data and the **Galileo** effect
to compute all kinds of things about the Earth,
including its' shape, and tides all over the world.
It appears from their articles that the people who
promote the Urban Legend that General Relativity
was essential to the GPS system,
do not even know why the offset to the GPS clock
is useful, but not essential to the GPS system.
Apparently Einstein has far better press agents
than Galileo and Newton.
It is sad that so-called scientists
with selfish agenda's hype GTR so intently.
One would think that if they were privy to
powerful esoteric knowledge,
that some of them would have used this knowledge
in the free market and make billions of dollars,
instead of living off the taxpayers.
No doubt, General Relativity is the model of choice
if one wants to speculate about time travel, warping through space,
gravity waves, gravitons, dragging space around,
rubber clocks and rulers, and such,
but if one wants to affect the lives of mankind
in a "fruitful" way, General Relativity
is a waste of time, money and minds.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
--
Tom Potter
I must point out to Gisse
that it is not "fruitful"
to waste time, money and minds,
on to reinforce racial./religious positions
simply because they feel that it is "nice to know"
(Have their feelings reinforced.).
The frequency offset to the GPS system
is not even essential, and in fact,
could be, and was, computed
using the model discovered by Galileo
over 300 years ago.
I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
and took some physics and math classes,
and perhaps he will post why he thinks
the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
None of the so-called scientists on the taxpayer dole,
who constantly hype General Relativity seem to know,
so I suspect that the GTR Zombies
are also ignorant of why the offset is useful.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Eric Gisse
Just because you have no intellectual curiosity does not mean you need
to impose your desire of not learning on others.
>
> The frequency offset to the GPS system
> is not even essential, and in fact,
> could be, and was, computed
> using the model discovered by Galileo
> over 300 years ago.
No. It was not. Stop lying.
>
> I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
> and took some physics and math classes,
> and perhaps he will post why he thinks
> the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
If by "some" you mean enough to have an understanding of classical
mechanics and modern physics that will net me a physics degree...then
yes.
Why would I explain anything to you when you continually refuse to
learn and continually attempt to enforce your lack of intellectual
curiosity on others?
>
> None of the so-called scientists on the taxpayer dole,
> who constantly hype General Relativity seem to know,
> so I suspect that the GTR Zombies
> are also ignorant of why the offset is useful.
>
> A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
...why bitch at me? I'm going to spend my life trying to understand
how the universe works - you spent yours peddling hardware to folks
who did what I want to do.
>
> --
> Tom Potter
>
Eric Gisse
[snip crackpottery]
> It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
> compute the GPS oscillator offset,
Oh look, more lying about "hacks" that don't exist. Who do you think
you are fooling?
> when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
> does it just fine.
Oh look, more lying about an equation. Christ - do you really believe
this shit?
[...]
Tom Potter
Gisse's goal in life:
"trying to understand how the universe works"
reminded me of a Rodney Dangerfield movie
where he had a job trying to teach chimps to
"understand how the universe works".
Rodney commented that they should first
teach the chimps how to go to the bathroom.
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Eric Gisse
[...]
>
> Gisse's goal in life:
> "trying to understand how the universe works"
>
> reminded me of a Rodney Dangerfield movie
> where he had a job trying to teach chimps to
> "understand how the universe works".
>
> Rodney commented that they should first
> teach the chimps how to go to the bathroom.
You are just bitter.
Before you spew some more, how about explaining what the 13 hacks of
general relativity are. You have been spewing about them for about a
year now with no sign of knowing what they are.
>
> --
> Tom Potter
>
Tom Potter
"Eric Gisse" <jow...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:
1176358344.4...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 11, 9:10 pm, "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
>>
>> Gisse's goal in life:
>> "trying to understand how the universe works"
>>
>> reminded me of a Rodney Dangerfield movie
>> where he had a job trying to teach chimps to
>> "understand how the universe works".
>>
>> Rodney commented that they should first
>> teach the chimps how to go to the bathroom.
>
> You are just bitter.
>
> Before you spew some more, how about explaining what the 13 hacks of
> general relativity are.
The "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation is:
f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
where "g" is about 9.8 meters per seconds^2
"distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
and "C" is about 300,000,000 meters per second,
in the case of the GPS system in Earth orbit.
Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444,
and subtracting one (1.0..) to get the difference,
we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the number used
in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
of the "P code" offset.
As can be seen from a Google search on "General Relativity" and
"GPS",
the various General Relativity Charlatans don't use this simple
model,
but instead use various number of hacks of GTR depending upon their
preference,
in order to come up with the same number
that can be computed using the model discovered over 300 years ago
by Galileo, and used by Newton to compute many things about the
Earth,
including its' shape, density, the tides in many places, etc.
(England sent ships all over the world with standard pendulums,
and they counted the number of swings of these pendulums
from sunrise to sunrise.)
(Pendulums are oscillators, and like all<?> oscillators,
their angular velocity is affected by acceleration.)
Now, I understand that you are a high school graduate,
and have taken some physics classes,
and I suggest that it would be a good experience for you
to work directly with General Relativity,
and see how many hacks it takes you
to come up with the number that Galileo and Newton
could have computed centuries ago.
I must again point out,
that the frequency offset is not really essential
but as far as I can see, NONE of the Charlatans that hype GTR
seem to comprehend why the frequency offset is used in the first
place.
Maybe some GTR Charlatans know about this
but don't want to discuss it, as it would expose the big lie
that GTR was and is essential to the GPS system.
I will be looking forward to seeing Gisse
demonstrate how many hacks he needs to GTR
to come up with the number I computed above.
I wonder if he can do it in less than 13 hacks?
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
> compute the GPS oscillator offset,
> when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
> does it just fine.
It was 300 years ago recently.
And BTW Galilieo died in 1642.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One would think that if they were privy to
> powerful esoteric knowledge,
> that some of them would have used this knowledge
> in the free market and make billions of dollars,
> instead of living off the taxpayers.
>
> No doubt, General Relativity is the model of choice
> if one wants to speculate about time travel, warping through space,
> gravity waves, gravitons, dragging space around,
> rubber clocks and rulers, and such,
>
> but if one wants to affect the lives of mankind
> in a "fruitful" way, General Relativity
> is a waste of time, money and minds.
Hulse and Taylor?
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
> and took some physics and math classes,
> and perhaps he will post why he thinks
> the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
I understand you are a retired salesman,
and sold some gizmos to people,
and perhaps he will post why he thinks this means he
is capable of understanding what GR actually means.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As can be seen from a Google search on "General Relativity" and
> "GPS",
> the various General Relativity Charlatans don't use this simple
> model,
> but instead use various number of hacks of GTR depending upon their
> preference,
> in order to come up with the same number
> that can be computed using the model discovered over 300 years ago
> by Galileo, and used by Newton to compute many things about the
> Earth,
> including its' shape, density, the tides in many places, etc.
So you haven't actually DONE the calculation Tom?
I have.
John "C"
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineasp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> And BTW Galilieo died in 1642.
>
And BTW your pea-brain died in 1994, Varney.
HJ
John "C"
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineasp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> So you haven't actually DONE the calculation Tom?
>
> I have.
>
Have a cookie sonny.
HJ
John "C"
> In article <1176346129....@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
> > and took some physics and math classes,
> > and perhaps he will post why he thinks
> > the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
>
>
> I understand you are a retired salesman,
> and sold some gizmos to people,
> and perhaps he will post why he thinks this means he
> is capable of understanding what GR actually means.
>
HJ
Art Deco
>In article <1176346129....@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
>> and took some physics and math classes,
>> and perhaps he will post why he thinks
>> the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
>
>
>I understand you are a retired salesman,
>and sold some gizmos to people,
>and perhaps he will post why he thinks this means he
>is capable of understanding what GR actually means.
I have to give Crackpotter a little credit; at least he can quote and
attribute a post correctly, unlike Relfwit.
--
Supreme Leader of the Brainwashed Followers of Art Deco
"Still suffering from reading comprehension problems, Deco?
The section is clearly attributed to Art Deco, not to you, Deco."
-- Dr. David Tholen
"Who is "David Tholen", Daedalus? Still suffering from
attribution problems?"
-- Dr. David Tholen
Eric Gisse
> "Eric Gisse" <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:
>
> 1176358344.414796.288...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 11, 9:10 pm, "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...]
>
> >> Gisse's goal in life:
> >> "trying to understand how the universe works"
>
> >> reminded me of a Rodney Dangerfield movie
> >> where he had a job trying to teach chimps to
> >> "understand how the universe works".
>
> >> Rodney commented that they should first
> >> teach the chimps how to go to the bathroom.
>
> > You are just bitter.
>
> > Before you spew some more, how about explaining what the 13 hacks of
> > general relativity are.
>
> The "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation is:
> f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
NOT discovered by Galileo, and is NOT truly classical. The speed of
light is infinite in classical mechanics.
>
> where "g" is about 9.8 meters per seconds^2
At the Earth's surface, shit for brains - it won't be 9.8 at 36,000km
above the surface. Even at the surface it fluctuates significantly
within 1%. This is why a complicated model is needed - the Earth is
not simple.
Why do you continually attempt to criticize a subject you just don't
understand, crackpotter?
> "distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
Actually, the GPS satellites are in geosynch - that is closer to
36,000km.
> and "C" is about 300,000,000 meters per second,
> in the case of the GPS system in Earth orbit.
>
> Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444,
> and subtracting one (1.0..) to get the difference,
> we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the number used
> in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
> of the "P code" offset.
"basically"? You can't even put in the right numbers! What is the
actual number, crackpotter? Hint: It is a lot larger than that.
The static redshift formula in classical mechanics and a weak
implementation of GR match to _first order_, but neither include the
kinematic effect from moving. This is directly accounted for by
general relativity
>
> As can be seen from a Google search on "General Relativity" and
> "GPS",
> the various General Relativity Charlatans don't use this simple
> model,
> but instead use various number of hacks of GTR depending upon their
> preference,
> in order to come up with the same number
> that can be computed using the model discovered over 300 years ago
> by Galileo, and used by Newton to compute many things about the
> Earth,
> including its' shape, density, the tides in many places, etc.
OH GOD SCIENTISTS USE A COMPLICATED MODEL FOR AN EVEN MORE COMPLICATED
OBJECT!
Did you know that your criticisms make no goddamn sense? Do you really
expect the universe to behave simply?
>
> (England sent ships all over the world with standard pendulums,
> and they counted the number of swings of these pendulums
> from sunrise to sunrise.)
>
> (Pendulums are oscillators, and like all<?> oscillators,
> their angular velocity is affected by acceleration.)
Do you even know how the period of a pendulum can be calculated,
crackpotter? If I hand you the relevant differential equation, would
you even know how to solve it after I gave you the relevant
approximation?
>
> Now, I understand that you are a high school graduate,
> and have taken some physics classes,
> and I suggest that it would be a good experience for you
> to work directly with General Relativity,
> and see how many hacks it takes you
> to come up with the number that Galileo and Newton
> could have computed centuries ago.
Except it doesn't and can't because it doesn't include the kinematical
effect from moving. It gets the effect wrong for Hafele and Keating,
and gets it even more wrong for GPS.
By the way, crackpotter. I am continually amused that you say I have
taken "some" physics classes when in reality I nearly have my BSc in
Physics completed.
>
> I must again point out,
> that the frequency offset is not really essential
> but as far as I can see, NONE of the Charlatans that hype GTR
> seem to comprehend why the frequency offset is used in the first
> place.
...because there IS an offset, that's why it is used. If the offset
wasn't used, the onboard clocks would not be able to keep proper time
and would make the system worthless in short order - like within a
day.
>
> Maybe some GTR Charlatans know about this
> but don't want to discuss it, as it would expose the big lie
> that GTR was and is essential to the GPS system.
It is a one-time correction, idiot. It was essential in making them
work right in the first place, but isn't needed for day to day
operations. Perhaps if you knew something about the subjects you
criticize...
>
> I will be looking forward to seeing Gisse
> demonstrate how many hacks he needs to GTR
> to come up with the number I computed above.
You can't even handle classical mechanics, dude. Give me a good reason
and I will.
>
> I wonder if he can do it in less than 13 hacks?
I wonder where you got that 13 number from. I wonder, even harder, why
you think you think you are suddenly qualified to shit all over
established science.
>
> --
> Tom Potter
>
T Wake
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineasp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:phineaspuddleduck-B...@news.octanews.com...
> In article <1176345559.5...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
>> compute the GPS oscillator offset,
>> when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
>> does it just fine.
>
>
> It was 300 years ago recently.
>
>
> And BTW Galilieo died in 1642.
>
Potter hasn't quite mastered this calendar thing yet. Although in the
strictest sense, it was *over* 200 years ago. He could have easily said over
a week ago as well, and still been correct.
T Wake
"Art Deco" <er...@caballista.org> wrote in message
news:120420071054552464%er...@caballista.org...
> Phineas T Puddleduck <phineasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <1176346129....@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
>>> and took some physics and math classes,
>>> and perhaps he will post why he thinks
>>> the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
>>
>>
>>I understand you are a retired salesman,
>>and sold some gizmos to people,
>>and perhaps he will post why he thinks this means he
>>is capable of understanding what GR actually means.
>
> I have to give Crackpotter a little credit; at least he can quote and
> attribute a post correctly, unlike Relfwit.
Has potter won any awards though?
Art Deco
I don't think so, but with Kookle temporarily unavailable, I can't
very. He has been on the ballot at least once, though.
The Secretary of HomIntern
> "Eric Gisse" wrote...
>> On Apr 11, 9:10 pm, "Tom Potter" wrote: [...]
Uh-huh. So, to sum up, you're saying that Galileo or Newton could have
come up with E=mc^2 centuries ago, based on a model Galileo invented?
Riiiiiiiiight.
> (England sent ships all over the world with standard pendulums, and they
> counted the number of swings of these pendulums from sunrise to
> sunrise.)
>
> (Pendulums are oscillators, and like all<?> oscillators, their angular
> velocity is affected by acceleration.)
>
> Now, I understand that you are a high school graduate, and have taken
> some physics classes,
> and I suggest that it would be a good experience for you to work
> directly with General Relativity, and see how many hacks it takes you to
> come up with the number that Galileo and Newton could have computed
> centuries ago.
>
> I must again point out,
> that the frequency offset is not really essential but as far as I can
> see, NONE of the Charlatans that hype GTR seem to comprehend why the
> frequency offset is used in the first place.
>
> Maybe some GTR Charlatans know about this but don't want to discuss it,
> as it would expose the big lie that GTR was and is essential to the GPS
> system.
>
> I will be looking forward to seeing Gisse demonstrate how many hacks he
> needs to GTR to come up with the number I computed above.
>
> I wonder if he can do it in less than 13 hacks?
For his unsupported contention that Galileo could have calculated the
General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models, with no
help at all from any later scientists, I do hereby nominate Tom Potter
for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
weird science. Weird history, too.
Seconds?
--
________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! "The personal _is_ political."
Bent Depraved N. Deviant Cock-Smoker, Esq., Superfaggot
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Message-ID: <Xns990EE557C065pi...@204.153.245.131>
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http://www.lowgenius.net/kookway.htm
TEH WAY OF THE K00K
Never learn from your mistakes.
Always practice your mistakes; you may get them right.
Always pick on those smarter and tougher than you.
Always believe that only you know the TRVTH.
Never allow logic or reason get in the way of a good k00k.
When being overwhelmed by logic and reason: k00ksuit!
If you are going to be wrong, do it at the top of your lungs.
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(06-Jun-05) Obviously, since you have your own fan group, this must mean
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want to disappoint them!
(10-May-2005)Everyone reads usenet. Approval here means approval
everywhere.
Post numerous blank posts, or posts containing only a message id.
Post numerous copy&paste web articles from crackerpot websites.
Never forget to call kookologists "k00ks."
If there are several, call them "sockpuppets" too
When all else fails, accuse various and sundry kookologists of e-mailing
viruses to you. This is a sure-fire method of garnering sympathy and
ensuring that the General Public will always see things your way. An
especially effective sub-strategy here is to accuse them of infecting
you with the 'Sasser' worm via e-mail.
Quote notorious scientists or writers - it makes it look as if they
approve the drivel you are writing!
(9-Jul-05) Anytime your computer is infected with a virus, bogged down
by spyware, attacked over your internet connection, or otherwise suffers
from preventable problems, government agencies are responsible and are
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Ignore all traffic signs and feel free to trespass, you don't have to
obey any rules.
Scare your enemies with lawsuits, police escorts and whines.
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agencies.
Be vigilant in your redundancy. The more you repeat yourself, the more
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If you can't find anyone as crazy as yourself to support you in the
flamewars you start with the normal population, create sock puppets and
use anonymous remailers that shamelessly hang on every word you write.
(17-Mar-05) When dealing with law enforcement, remember that it is they
who have the problem, not you. Be sure to inform them of this at every
available opportunity, as they will surely appreciate your constructive
criticism. Be sure to make them aware that YOU KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! ("The
cops like that, when people know their rights. That way they don't have
to read them to you on the way to the station." - George Carlin)
The more your fake personalities adulate you, the more respect you'll
get!
When confronted with a reality that you don't like: Announce loudly
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Come back in three or four days and claim you were drunk, hacked,
abducted by alience, or forged. Alternately you can just not even
mention your prior departure, and if anyone asks you about it, either
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Always remain clueproof.
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of [$DEITY_OR_PROPHET] is obviously an infidel lacking in faith whose
soul in in peril of everlasting damnation.
When responding to one line challenges, post paragraphs of rants and
screed in response.
Incoherency is not a roadblock to poasting.
Neither is illiteracy.
Delusions poasted often enough become fact.
Claim you will destroy <insert newsfroup> for attacking you.
When spnaked, send cmsg for Fanboi newsfroup(s).
Find your Lame, Use your Lame, Be your Lame!
Post Edit when the TRVTH hurts.
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Post lots of boasts about your high IQ and incredible talents.
(20-Mar-05) If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
Anybody who fails to understand this is engaged in a deliberate campaign
of misinformation and character assassination.
Always <plonk> somebody just before replying the plonkee!
The k00k considers itself the most intelligent person in any
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ignorant, and have been waiting their whole lives for the k00k to rescue
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Write a self-published book and claim it a success. Bonus points for
comparing it to "Mein Kampf" and/or the Bible.
Declare yourself equal to a deity of your choice.
Claim that you've come from other planets.
Claim thousands of past lives.
Frothing complaints carry far more weight when you send them from
"legal@" some domain.
Nothing strikes terror into the hearts of your detractors more than
telling them that you're archiving their messages for possible use in
the future.
Never forget that everyone else posting to Usenet is a paid
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Usenet is governed by US law. If a poster in Romania killfiles you, he's
obviously violating your 1st Amendment rights and can be sued.
Every news admin in the world hangs out in NANAU, and they're just dying
to nuke the account of that meanyhead who just called you "fucknozzle".
Drop 'em a line - that's what they're there for, after all.
AUK will be closed down. Just you wait and see.
They've nuked hundreds of accounts in the name of free speech and
*yours* will be next.
The k00k will, without any trace of irony, lie, manipulate, impersonate,
censor, and declare themselves powerful in ways ranging from the ability
to have an account shut down to being God Herself, in order to convince
people that they are not liars, manipulators, censors, or insane.
Abuse women while telling how many hundreds you've loved. Nevermind that
you're one ugly motherfucker and that there were 30,000 femininas that
thought you were a scumbag with bad teeth.
Remember that your ko0ky klaims are 'facts', and that 'facts' do not
require proof.
Do not neglect to poast your responses to forums that the originator
doesn't read. This will make the people in that forum very impressed
with how you tear him to shreds without him being able to respond. They
like it even better if you are off-topic for that forum.
Keep in mind that lack of evidence supporting your konspiracy theory
actually _is_ evidence, of how effective the konspiracy is in hiding.
(06-Oct-05) When spanked, always retreat to the safety of the Ad
Hominem.
(04-Aug-2005) When spanked mercilessly for days on end, proving with
each poast just what an illiterate and ignorant fool you are, ALWAYS
claim ownership of [person(s),froup(s)]. This works on so many levels.
It inspires dread in your opponents that they will no longer be able to
poast in their home froup and that they will eventually have to pay
rent, to name just two.
Any problems with your poasts are the fault of the konspirators, who are
trying to stop you from preventing the extinction of humanity.
Konspiracies that are able to subvert whole governments are always unable
to silence konspiracy ko0ks.
The entire United States government is willing to spend millions of
dollars for the sole purpose of harassing you.
Hollywood is making movies based on your personal life.
Do not consult psychiatrists or other mental health professionals. They
are part of the konspiracy, and will sedate you and lock you away and
keep you drugged if you tell them the truth.
Numerology and Astrology are respectable sciences and are useful for
proving your case.
Everyone is Tim Hill, or David Green, or...
There is a fine line between trolling and kookery. Find that line and
cross it repeatedly. When you are killfiled and/or LARTed for net.abuse
as a result, claim victory. If you lose multiple accounts, this merely
proves that you are indeed a world-class troll, with a black-belt in
manipulation.
If you respond to every post someone else makes, they're obsessed. If
they respond to less than 1% of your posts, they're even more obsessed.
Publishing people's real names, addresses, and phone numbers when
there's no other way for you to come out of a flamewar with any dignity
is cool, and proves that you are a master of secret internet information
stores, and absolutely not to be fucked with.
Everyone is out to get you. You can put a stop to this by telling
everyone that they're out to get you at every available opportunity.
You are the only sane one.
Those that give you a hard time about morally bankrupt things you
yourself admit to are just persecutioners of the new inquisition.
Yelling in all caps and cursing at your detractors is debate. Your
detractors laughing at you with sarcastic remarks is obvious anger and
jealousy.
If doing something results in the loss of your account, legal hassles,
or blunt trauma injury, do it again. It always works better the second
time.
Asterisks, lots and lots of Asterisks.
Poking holes in kookscreed is stalking, and is a felony.
K00ks LOVE to "connect the dots". They are, of course, dots that only
the k00k can see.
"They laughed at Einstein, too!"
...with thanks to Aratzio, Dr. Flonkenstein, Dan Baldwin, Cujo, CJ
Osterwald, Jade, Bookman, and John Henry, of AUK. Meow. Original thread
at http://tinyurl.com/3fsho - some posts may not appear due to
x-no-archive headers. The spelling mistakes are intentional, dolt.
Phineas T Puddleduck
The Secretary of HomIntern <cbcrf...@zrbj.bet> wrote:
> ow, I understand that you are a high school graduate, and have taken
> > some physics classes,
> > and I suggest that it would be a good experience for you to work
> > directly with General Relativity, and see how many hacks it takes you to
> > come up with the number that Galileo and Newton could have computed
> > centuries ago.
> >
> > I must again point out,
> > that the frequency offset is not really essential but as far as I can
> > see, NONE of the Charlatans that hype GTR seem to comprehend why the
> > frequency offset is used in the first place.
> >
> > Maybe some GTR Charlatans know about this but don't want to discuss it,
> > as it would expose the big lie that GTR was and is essential to the GPS
> > system.
> >
> > I will be looking forward to seeing Gisse demonstrate how many hacks he
> > needs to GTR to come up with the number I computed above.
> >
> > I wonder if he can do it in less than 13 hacks?
>
> For his unsupported contention that Galileo could have calculated the
> General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models, with no
> help at all from any later scientists, I do hereby nominate Tom Potter
> for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
> weird science. Weird history, too.
>
> Seconds?
Yes. Potter's been espousing his 200/300/3000 year old formula for as
long as he can manage.
Seconded!
Glynn Haswell
Aye! Seconded! Also because this:
"General Relativity Charlatans... use various number of hacks of GTR
depending upon their preference, in order to come up with the same
number..."
Really means:
"General Relativity Charlatans... use 1 + 1 = 2, or 3 + 4 + -5 = 2, or 1 + 2
+ 3 - 4 = 2 in order to come up with 2..."
And because this:
"Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444, and subtracting one (1.0..)
to get the difference, we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the
number used in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
of the "P code" offset."
Really means:
"Computing we get: 2 which is basically the number of eggs a non-specific
chicken surely laid yesterday."
And because this:
"which is basically the number"
Really means: "I can't account for the difference so if I don't focus any
attention there at all then I might get away with this bullshit."
And because this:
"basically"
Really means: Coincidentally.
Kadaitcha Man
is the foul fiend Flibbertigibbet. Ye chin wagged:
PS: Do you think the sock I used to second that will be uncovered?
--
alt.usenet.kooks
"We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us."
Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 [129]
Hammer of Thor: February 2007. Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook,
Line & Sinker: September 2005, April 2006, January 2007.
Vescere puter subgalia meis.
"Now I know what it is. Now I know what it means when an
alt.usenet.kook x-post shows up."
AOK in news:ermdlu$nli$1...@registered.motzarella.org
Jij homofiele likkende ondeugd.
Eric Gisse
wrote:
[...]
That didn't take long. I have been forwarding these morons to AUK for
a day now, and already got one nomination.
Oh, and I second the nomination.
Tom Potter
As can be seen,
I posted the desired offset to the GPS oscillators
using a 300 year old model,
and challenged Gisse
to put his knowledge where his mouth is,
and compute the offset using General Relativity.
Hopefully Gisse will not bullshit,
bob and weave,
rope-a-dope
equivocate,
brag about his high school diploma,
but will compute the desired offset using General Relativity,
and show how many hacks are needed to come up with
a useable offset.
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Tom Potter
> "Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddled...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:phineaspuddleduck-B...@news.octanews.com...
>
> > In article <1176345559.559510.148...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
> >> compute the GPS oscillator offset,
> >> when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
> >> does it just fine.
>
> > It was 300 years ago recently.
>
> > And BTW Galilieo died in 1642.
>
> Potter hasn't quite mastered this calendar thing yet. Although in the
> strictest sense, it was *over* 200 years ago. He could have easily said over
> a week ago as well, and still been correct.
Much ado about nothing.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> but will compute the desired offset using General Relativity,
> and show how many hacks are needed to come up with
> a useable offset.
get yourself a copy of Exploring Black Hole Spacetimes by Taylor/Wheeler
which (provided you can do the math) walks you through the entire
calculation.
Tom Potter
wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:56:54 -0700,Tom Potterk'lamed:
>> For his unsupported contention that Galileo could have calculated the
>> General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models, with no
>> help at all from any later scientists, I do hereby nominate Tom Potter
>> for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
>> weird science. Weird history, too.
I don't know who "The Secretary of HomIntern " is,
but I do know that he is a bare faced liar,
who is determined to make Galileo look bad,
perhaps because Galileo was a Catholic,
perhaps because Galileo was an Italian,
perhaps because "The Secretary of HomIntern " worships Einstein,
perhaps because Galileo was not Jewish.
(Or perhaps because I have exposed the ignorance
of his buddy (Alter ego?), "Phineas T Puddleduck".)
I challenge this dishonest person to post where I asserted that
Galileo
"could have calculated the General Theory of Relativity
based on one of his own models."
As can be seen from my post quoted below,
I did point out to "Phineas T Puddleduck"
that the frequency offset used in the GPS system
can be calculated using information discovered by Galileo
over 300 years ago.
"As can be seen, "Puddleduck", like most people,
has been conditioned to give credit for the GPS frequency offset
to the wrong person.
A frequency offset for the **Galileo** effect is built into the
clocks. (Although the frequency offset is not really required,
and the Charlatans that hype General Relativity
do not even seem to comprehend why the offset is used.)
Galileo Effect - Affect of acceleration on oscillating systems.
Hubble Effect - Affect of distance on oscillating systems.
Doppler Effect - Affect of velocity on oscillating systems.
It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
compute the GPS oscillator offset,
when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
does it just fine.
The Doppler Effect is not used to offset the oscillators
as the relative velocity between the birds and receivers
is constantly changing, and the Hubble Effect is not compensated for
because it is too small to be a factor.
The "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation is:
f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
where "g" is about 9.8 meters per seconds^2
"distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
and "C" is about 300,000,000 meters per second,
in the case of the GPS system in Earth orbit.
Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444,
and subtracting one (1.0..) to get the difference,
we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the number used
in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
of the "P code" offset.
Over 200 years ago, England sent ships all
over the world with standard pendulums
to measure the number of swings for sunrise to sunrise
Newton used this data and the **Galileo** effect
to compute all kinds of things about the Earth,
including its' shape, and tides all over the world.
It appears from their articles that the people who
promote the Urban Legend that General Relativity
was essential to the GPS system,
do not even know why the offset to the GPS clock
is useful, but not essential to the GPS system.
Apparently Einstein has far better press agents
than Galileo and Newton."
I suggest that anyone who reads
"that Galileo could have calculated the
General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models.."
into any of my posts should join with
"Phineas T Puddleduck" and "The Secretary of HomIntern",
and the other Parrots and Zombies,
who get all bent out of shape when someone
exposes their belief in some Urban Legend,
but otherwise I suggest that they should initiate
a "Liar of the month" award,
and vote "The Secretary of HomIntern"
in as the initial member.
I suggest that another good award classification
would be for the "Urban Legend Parrot of the month"
and "Phineas T Puddleduck"
would fit this classification quite well.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> into any of my posts should join with
> "Phineas T Puddleduck" and "The Secretary of HomIntern",
> and the other Parrots and Zombies,
> who get all bent out of shape when someone
> exposes their belief in some Urban Legend,
>
> but otherwise I suggest that they should initiate
> a "Liar of the month" award,
> and vote "The Secretary of HomIntern"
> in as the initial member.
>
> I suggest that another good award classification
> would be for the "Urban Legend Parrot of the month"
> and "Phineas T Puddleduck"
> would fit this classification quite well.
More froth Pitter?
Tom Potter
slime-slit.org> wrote:
> The Secretary of HomIntern <cbcrfan...@zrbj.bet> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:56:54 -0700,Tom Potterk'lamed:
> > for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
> > weird science. Weird history, too.
>
> > Seconds?
>
> Aye! Seconded! Also because this:
>
> "General Relativity Charlatans... use various number of hacks of GTR
> depending upon their preference, in order to come up with the same
> number..."
>
> Really means:
>
> "General Relativity Charlatans... use 1 + 1 = 2, or 3 + 4 + -5 = 2, or 1 + 2
> + 3 - 4 = 2 in order to come up with 2..."
>
> And because this:
>
> "Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444, and subtracting one (1.0..)
> to get the difference, we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the
> number used in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
> of the "P code" offset."
>
> Really means:
>
> "Computing we get: 2 which is basically the number of eggs a non-specific
> chicken surely laid yesterday."
>
> And because this:
>
> "which is basically the number"
>
> Really means: "I can't account for the difference so if I don't focus any
> attention there at all then I might get away with this bullshit."
>
> And because this:
>
> "basically"
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
As my Pappy used to say:
"A stuck pig squeals."
It appears that my post about General Relativity
has a few Einstein cult members
all bent out of shape.
Here is the post that set them squealing:
"Sam raises a good point about " fruitful models",
as it is sometimes helpful to remind folks
about what is,
and what isn't "fruitful".
After Newton's model,
there were immediate and rapid advances
in mechanics, astronomy, etc.
After Maxwell's model
there were immediate and rapid advances
in chemistry, electricity, etc.
After Watson's and Crick's DNA model
there were immediate and rapid advances
in medicine, genetics, animal husbandry,
the history of the Earth and Mankind, etc.
I noticed in the news in the last few days,
that the DNA model was recently used to develop
a new form of rice that will prevent 500,000 children
from going blind EVERY YEAR,
and that was used to convert blood types,
and that people with rare blood types will have a safe
supply of blood in the future.
As can be seen Newton's, Maxwell's and the DNA model
are being used daily **in the free market** in "fruitful" ways,
where as, as can be seen by the recent news,
over one billion of the tax payers dollars have been spent
on just one of the many projects to rationalize General Relativity
( Gravity Probe-B ).
Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
Here we are, 100 years after General Relativity
and it continues to generate more hype and tax spending
than light and "fruit".
Can you imagine the benefits to mankind
if some of that one billion dollars was used
in "fruitful" ways on DNA projects? "
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here we are, 100 years after General Relativity
> and it continues to generate more hype and tax spending
> than light and "fruit".
>
> Can you imagine the benefits to mankind
> if some of that one billion dollars was used
> in "fruitful" ways on DNA projects? "
You have a point. We could perhaps remove terminal idiocy, similar to
yourself, from our gene pool.
Phineas T Puddleduck
> Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
> in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
> the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
> who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
> that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
Here you go...
http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/projecta.pdf
Edwin Taylor has provided the WHOLE chapter on calculating the relevant
offsets with some calculus (you CAN do calculus, right?) with full help
and explanations.
Put your money where your mouth is, loser.
"The timing accuracy required by the GPS is so great that general
relativistic effects are central to its performance. First, clocks run
at different rates when they are at different distances from a center of
gravitational attraction. Second, both satellite motion and Earth
rotation must be taken into account; neither the moving satellite nor
Earth零 surface corresponds to the stationary spherical shell described
in Chapter 2. In this project you will investigate these effects.
Your challenge in this project (and in all later projects) is to respond
to the numbered queries. (Query 1 for this project appears on page A-4.)
Typically, a query contains several related questions. Answer the
queries in order, or as assigned to you, or skip to those that interest
you the most. "
SO - the BALL is in your court.
Eric Gisse
...AND YOU GOT IT WRONG! You were inputting the _WRONG_ numbers and
you were ignoring the kinematic effect from moving. You are aware that
stuff in orbit *MOVES*, right? You were not even within an order of
magnitude of the right answer.
In fact you are _TWO_ orders of magnitude off!
> using a 300 year old model,
> and challenged Gisse
> to put his knowledge where his mouth is,
> and compute the offset using General Relativity.
Dumbshit.
The speed of light is infinite in classical mechanics. If you are
going to copy and paste responses, try getting them right beforehand.
>
> Hopefully Gisse will not bullshit,
> bob and weave,
> rope-a-dope
> equivocate,
> brag about his high school diploma,
Idiot. A high school diploma is not worth bragging about - I have no
idea why you are taking cues from Jeff Relf.
If I'm going to brag, it is to point out I am nearly finished with my
bachelors of science in physics.
>
> but will compute the desired offset using General Relativity,
> and show how many hacks are needed to come up with
> a useable offset.
Just say approximation instead of being intellectually dishonest.
Assumptions:
Schwarzschild metric - nonrotating planet [I can input rotation in
later], spherically symmetric.
Circular orbits - it's easier that way.
The satellite and receiver are both on the equator. [even easier!]
Movement is in a plane with theta = pi/2 [equator] in the usual
spherical coordinate system.
With that in mind...
ds^2 = [c^2 -2GM/r]dt^2 - r^2 d\phi^2
Factor out dt and make the abbreviation that w = angular velocity of
objects = d\phi/dt.
ds^2 = dt^2 ( c^2 - 2GM/r - r^2w^2)
We really care about proper time - ds^2 = d\tau^2/c^2
d\tau = dt*sqrt(1 - 2GM/rc^2 - (rw/c)^2)
Integrate [it doesn't really matter since r,w are not functions of
either coordinate or proper time].
tau / t = sqrt(1 - 2GM/rc^2 - (rw/c)^2)
Now, for my numbers
[IN SI UNITS]
G = 6.672x10^-11
r_orbit = 4.22x10^7 m
r_surface = 6.37x10^6 m
M = 6x10^24 kg
c = 3x10^8 m/s
w = 1/86400s
Using this, I get a dtau = tau_surface - tau_orbit = 5.888x10^-10 dt
Which means the satellite clock is faster by about 51000 nanoseconds
per day. The true answer [via experiment] is about 38,000 nanoseconds
per day. I ignored oblateness, density fluctuations, the moon and the
sun, eccentricity and I'm _STILL_ within 75% of the true answer and I
used the simplest possible model.
A hell of a lot closer than your answer. Notice I didn't use any
'hacks' - straight up Schwarzschild - I didn't even bother using the
binomial expansion for the square root. Pretty easy, huh?
http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html - for the actual numbers.
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/ - for the
more complicated derivation that is a lot closer to reality.
>
> --
> Tom Potter
>
Eric Gisse
wrote:
> In article <1176432935.953460.99...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
> > in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
> > the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
> > who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
> > that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
>
> Here you go...
>
> http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/projecta.pdf
>
> Edwin Taylor has provided the WHOLE chapter on calculating the relevant
> offsets with some calculus (you CAN do calculus, right?) with full help
> and explanations.
Well shit, I just spent a half hour doing it myself. I did get the
right [within the context of Schwarzschild] answer though, and my
notation on paper was all over the map.
Time well spent though.
The answer I got was 50869.7 ns/day with the numbers I gave. I still
think it is pretty impressive that such a simple model gets the answer
right to within 75%. I bet I could get a lot closer if I use the
*correct* orbital parameters...
[...]
Eric Gisse
[...]
>
> Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
> in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
> the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
> who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
> that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
No stoopid - frame dragging _definitely_ occurs. We knew that to
within 20% or so before GP-B was launched - GP-B seeks to make sure GR
gets it _right_ because frame dragging is a nonintuitive and odd
prediction.
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/17/12/309
Take a break from your copying and pasting of nonsense, and read an
actual paper.
[snip spewing]
If you had it your way, the United States government would close all
universities and stop funding basic research. People like you are who
keep other people in the dark - willingly and happily.
Fortunately, you will never get your way because you are an
intellectually in-curious caveman. I'm willing to bet that if I said
nothing, you would not have looked at the paper I quoted you
previously. I am willing to bet, even more strongly, that were I to
quiz you on the paper's contents, you would fail.
Tom Potter
wrote:
> In article <1176431464.228230.293...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > but will compute the desired offset using General Relativity,
> > and show how many hacks are needed to come up with
> > a useable offset.
>
> get yourself a copy of Exploring Black Hole Spacetimes by Taylor/Wheeler
> which (provided you can do the math) walks you through the entire
> calculation.
Puddleduck raises a good point
about the utility of General Relativity,
when he points out that Taylor/Wheeler
devoted a whole book to
computing the offset used in the GPS system.
As can be seen from my post,
this can can be done with one line,
using the same model that Newton used
over ten minutes ago
in computing the shape of the Earth,
the tides all over the world, etc.
As can be infered from Puddleduck's statement:
"provided you can do the math)"
General Relativity is a Tower of Babel
that wastes time, money and minds
on such pursuits as time travel, worm holes,
rubber clocks and rulers, gravitons and such.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Tom Potter
wrote:
> In article <1176432321.630772.130...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > into any of my posts should join with
> > "Phineas T Puddleduck" and "The Secretary of HomIntern",
> > and the other Parrots and Zombies,
> > who get all bent out of shape when someone
> > exposes their belief in some Urban Legend,
>
> > but otherwise I suggest that they should initiate
> > a "Liar of the month" award,
> > and vote "The Secretary of HomIntern"
> > in as the initial member.
>
> > I suggest that another good award classification
> > would be for the "Urban Legend Parrot of the month"
> > and "Phineas T Puddleduck"
> > would fit this classification quite well.
>
> More froth Pitter?
Polly want a cracker?
Kadaitcha Man
Ye hollered:
> A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Nice get-out clause. Of course, the astute reader will realise that you must
first have a brain to waste.
--
alt.usenet.kooks
"We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us."
Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 [129]
Hammer of Thor: February 2007. Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook,
Line & Sinker: September 2005, April 2006, January 2007.
Vescere puter subgalia meis.
"Now I know what it is. Now I know what it means when an
alt.usenet.kook x-post shows up."
AOK in news:ermdlu$nli$1...@registered.motzarella.org
Wat ben jij een lelijke logge eikelkluiver.
Tom Potter
wrote:
> In article <1176432935.953460.99...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Here we are, 100 years after General Relativity
> > and it continues to generate more hype and tax spending
> > than light and "fruit".
>
> > Can you imagine the benefits to mankind
> > if some of that one billion dollars was used
> > in "fruitful" ways on DNA projects? "
>
> You have a point. We could perhaps remove terminal idiocy, similar to
> yourself, from our gene pool.
It is interesting to see
that Phineas T Puddleduck,
an unemployed computer programmer
seems to be of the opinion that
people who make statement that expose urban legends,
parrots, and charlatans
should be removed from the gene pool,
and that the taxpayers money should be used
to support childish, unemployed, dishonest, neurotic clowns
who contaminate science newsgroups
with lies, insults, and childish remarks.
Regarding Phineas T Puddleduck's comment
"our gene pool", I dare say that no
rational, intelligent, mature, honest, heterosexual person
would want to share Phineas T Puddleduck's genes.
Tom Potter
>
> > Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
> > in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
> > the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
> > who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
> > that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
>
> Here you go...
>
> http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/projecta.pdf
>
> Edwin Taylor has provided the WHOLE chapter on calculating the relevant
> offsets with some calculus (you CAN do calculus, right?) with full help
> and explanations.
>
> Put your money where your mouth is, loser.
>
> "The timing accuracy required by the GPS is so great that general
> relativistic effects are central to its performance. First, clocks run
> at different rates when they are at different distances from a center of
> gravitational attraction. Second, both satellite motion and Earth
> rotation must be taken into account; neither the moving satellite nor
> in Chapter 2. In this project you will investigate these effects.
>
> Your challenge in this project (and in all later projects) is to respond
> to the numbered queries. (Query 1 for this project appears on page A-4.)
> Typically, a query contains several related questions. Answer the
> queries in order, or as assigned to you, or skip to those that interest
> you the most. "
>
> SO - the BALL is in your court.
It is interesting to see that Phineas T Puddleduck
refers me to a paper by one of the three primary
General relativity Welfare Scientists,
who takes nine pages to come up with the answer
that I came up with in two lines
using the same model used by Newton
to computed many things about the Earth,
including its' shape and tides all over the world.
And note that the author ends his nine page analysis with
this problem for students such as Phineas T Puddleduck and Gisse.
"A junior traveler, making her frst trip by train from the United
States into
Mexico, sees the town of Zacatecas outside her window and reassures
her-
self by the marginal note in the guidebook that this ancient silver-
mining
town is 1848 kilometers from San Diego, California, and 1506
kilometers
from New Orleans, Louisiana. On a surface, two distances thus sufice
to
fix location."
Strange???
It seems to me that there are two places
on the Earth's surface that are:
"1848 kilometers from San Diego, California,
and 1506 kilometers from New Orleans, Louisiana."
Hopefully, the General Relativity parrots
will cease their endless "parroting",
(Insulting, name calling, equivocating, clowning, referencing......)
and post, as I did,
an equation that can be used in computing the
offset used in the GPS oscillators,
and actually compute the value.
Tom Potter
Gisse raises a good point!
As the satellites are "moving"
with respect to all of the GPS receivers,
to compensate for General Relativity
the oscillators on all of the satellites
would have to be offset for
all of the receivers using the GPS system.
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Tom Potter
Sorry, I don't have any more time to play today,
as I have other fish to fry,
and PARROTS to roast.
I'll try to get back to your silly posts in a day or so.
Bye bye.
Polly want a cracker?
Sam Wormley
>
> As the satellites are "moving"
> with respect to all of the GPS receivers,
> to compensate for General Relativity
> the oscillators on all of the satellites
> would have to be offset for
> all of the receivers using the GPS system.
>
Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5....
Poor Potter having trouble with conceptual understanding?
Androcles
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1176301648.1...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 11, 9:48 am, H. Wabnig <.... .-- .- -... -. .. --. @ .-
> --- -. DOT .- -> wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:20:14 GMT, "Androcles"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <Engin...@hogwarts.physics.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >"Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1176179515.2...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> >> On Apr 9, 6:04 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
>> >>> Tom Potter wrote:
>>
>> >>> > The following is a summary of the posts made to the
>> >>> > "The General Relativity gang are circling the wagons." thread.
>>
>> >>> [snip crap]
>>
>> >>> 1) GPS works.
>> >>> 2) Idiot.
>>
>> >> I was surprised to see that Uncle Al,
>> >> like many people,
>> >> has been brainwashed to think that General Relativity
>> >> is essential to the GPS system.
>>
>>
>> >1) Grass is green.
>> >2) Uncle Stooopid is a moron.
>>
>> >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Morons/UncleStooopid.htm
>>
>> Androcles:
>>
>> >...........
>> >c = 2AB/(t'A-tA) = 0/0
>>
>> I always wonder why Androcles considers that beeing 0/0,
>> especially why he sets ( t'-t) = 0
>>
It's been explained to Wabnigger and he's still wondering...
>> furthermore, in spite of you and hanson
>>
>> GPS is relativity corrected, SRT and GR, both of them.
>> Read what hanson's governement says.
>>
>> Buy yourself some knowledge:http://www.navtechgps.com/supply/books.asp?Line=engineering
>>
>> Get in touch with Einstein:http://www.navtechgps.com/Newsletters/GPSetc_News_May_14_2004.asphttps://listserv.unb.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208&L=canspace&T=0&P=5139http://www.satellitecorp.com/GPSRelativitySeminar.htm
>>
>> Read what hanson's governement says:http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/2001SPSPerformanceStandardFINA...http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/default.htm
>>
>> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf
>> from above link for example:
>>
>> >Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects,
>> >the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction.
>> >Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.
>>
>> Wormleys GPS collectionhttp://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html
>>
>> hanson and Androcles are full time idiots and notorious liars.
>>
>> Androcles and hanson, where have your parents been around
>> 9 months before your birth?
>> w.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Wabby, it appears that you didn't read those books,
> as that don't make your case.
>
> Maybe you just chewed off the cover, eh?
>
> It can be easily demonstrated
> (As I have done in several posts.)
> that General Relativity is not essential to the GPS system,
> nor is it a FRUITFUL model to use
> to compute the affect that acceleration
> and velocity have on oscillators and received signals.
>
> One equation, discovered by Galileo over three hundred years ago,
> accurately models the frequency offset used,
> (But not really needed.) in the GPS system
>
> As can be seen, the General Relativity Charlatans
> use 13 hacks of GTR to do compute the offset.
>
> It is interesting to see that Ashby,
> the number one GTR Charlatan,
> tries to convince folks (Tax granters)
> that the frequency outputs derived from the atomic clocks
> cannot be adjusted with frequency dividers,
> and phase lock and homodyne circuits.
Eric Gisse
[snip]
How about reading the rest of the post?
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Eric Gisse" <jow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well shit, I just spent a half hour doing it myself. I did get the
> right [within the context of Schwarzschild] answer though, and my
> notation on paper was all over the map.
>
> Time well spent though.
>
> The answer I got was 50869.7 ns/day with the numbers I gave. I still
> think it is pretty impressive that such a simple model gets the answer
> right to within 75%. I bet I could get a lot closer if I use the
> *correct* orbital parameters...
I did it a year ago .... ;-) I'm quite familar with T/W's book as it
contains enough SR/GR for my needs ;-)
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Puddleduck raises a good point
> about the utility of General Relativity,
>
> when he points out that Taylor/Wheeler
> devoted a whole book to
> computing the offset used in the GPS system.
Chapter != Book.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> using the same model that Newton used
> over ten minutes ago
> in computing the shape of the Earth,
> the tides all over the world, etc.
>
> As can be infered from Puddleduck's statement:
> "provided you can do the math)"
So you CANT do Calculus then.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is interesting to see
> that Phineas T Puddleduck,
> an unemployed computer programmer
> seems to be of the opinion that
>
Soon-to graduate astrophysicist - Get it right.
> people who make statement that expose urban legends,
> parrots, and charlatans
> should be removed from the gene pool,
No - I said idiots.
>
> and that the taxpayers money should be used
> to support childish, unemployed, dishonest, neurotic clowns
> who contaminate science newsgroups
> with lies, insults, and childish remarks.
>
> Regarding Phineas T Puddleduck's comment
> "our gene pool", I dare say that no
> rational, intelligent, mature, honest, heterosexual person
> would want to share Phineas T Puddleduck's genes.
BWAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
Looks over computer
BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hopefully, the General Relativity parrots
> will cease their endless "parroting",
> (Insulting, name calling, equivocating, clowning, referencing......)
> and post, as I did,
> an equation that can be used in computing the
> offset used in the GPS oscillators,
> and actually compute the value.
So you cannot do the relevant calculations?
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I don't have any more time to play today,
> as I have other fish to fry,
> and PARROTS to roast.
>
> I'll try to get back to your silly posts in a day or so.
>
> Bye bye.
>
> Polly want a cracker?
So you cannot understand the physics, juniour salesman potter?
Tom Potter
> http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/- for the
> more complicated derivation that is a lot closer to reality.
As can be seen from above,
I computed the oscillator offset used by the GPS oscillators
using the "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation:
f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
and got a shifted frequency of 1.00000000054444444
Subtracting one (1.0..) I got the difference:
5.4*10^-10
Gisse used the following hacks to General Relativity
1 Schwarzschild metric
2. Movement is in a plane with theta = pi/2 [equator] in the usual
spherical coordinate system.
and avoided using the following General Relativity hacks:
1. Rotating planet
2. Non-circular orbits
3. The satellite and receiver are both on the equator.
(And the other hacks frequently used by General Relativity Gurus.)
and Gisse got
5.888x10^-10
Note the following:
1. Gisse asserted
"In fact you are _TWO_ orders of magnitude off!"
and he came up with basically the same "order of magnitude"
after he did the calculation.
2. Gisse thinks that the GPS satellites are in geosynchronous orbit.
3. Asserted that the speed of light was infinite in classical
mechanics.
Apparently Gisse doesn't know that Galileo, like many early
physicists,
understood that it took time for events to propagate,
and that propagation time / propagation distance = propagation
velocity,
and that he tried to measure the speed of light but was unable to do
so.
and that in 1676 Römer used data from the eclipses of Jupiter's moons
to compute the speed of light as 225,000 km per second,
and that in 1849 Fizeau measure the speed of light to be
300,000 kilometers per second,
and that in 1862 Maxwell computed the speed of light
using the values of the electric (Permittivity)
and magnetic (permeability) constants.
No doubt, some people like Descartes thought
that the speed of light was infinite,
much as some physicists today
claim that GTR is essential to the GPS system.
Of course, it may be that Gisse does not consider
that Römer, Fizeau, Maxwell and others
were involved in "classical mechanics".
4. Commented on the equation I used
f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
by saying:
"At the Earth's surface, shit for brains -
it won't be 9.8 at 36,000km above the surface"
when the equation clearly indicates that
the "g" used is the acceleration at zero distance.
5. Note that Gisse made the statement:
" Why do you continually attempt to criticize a subject you just don't
understand, crackpotter?
Actually, the GPS satellites are in geosynch - that is closer to
36,000km."
(Note that he used the figure "r_orbit = 4.22x10^7 m" in his
calculation.)
Considering that Gisse does not comprehend where the
GPS satellites are, and thinks [sic] they "are in geosynch",
and continually makes childish comments on things he has no knowledge
of,
one might wonder why Gisse:
" continually attempts to criticize subjects <he> just doesn't
understand.."
I suggest that young boys like Gisse
should give a lot of though about
Newton's rules of reasoning
"RULE I
"We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are
both
true and sufficient to explain their appearances.
To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain,
and more is in vain when less will serve;
for Nature is pleased with simplicity,
and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes. "
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gisse raises a good point!
>
> As the satellites are "moving"
> with respect to all of the GPS receivers,
> to compensate for General Relativity
> the oscillators on all of the satellites
> would have to be offset for
> all of the receivers using the GPS system.
And the derivation I posted includes GR effects to get 38,000 ns
correction - accuracy to within 10 metres.
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As can be seen from above,
> I computed the oscillator offset
And got it wrong - its actually 38,000 ns allowing for GR.
Your imaginary formula only allows for SR not GR corrections.
Bzzt wrong thanks for playing
Phineas T Puddleduck
> I suggest that young boys like Gisse
> should give a lot of though about
> Newton's rules of reasoning
>
> "RULE I
> "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are
> both
> true and sufficient to explain their appearances.
>
> To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain,
> and more is in vain when less will serve;
> for Nature is pleased with simplicity,
> and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes. "
And when it comes to being simple, Potter you have us all beat.
Phineas T Puddleduck
> Gisse used the following hacks to General Relativity
> 1 Schwarzschild metric
> 2. Movement is in a plane with theta = pi/2 [equator] in the usual
> spherical coordinate system.
>
> and avoided using the following General Relativity hacks:
> 1. Rotating planet
> 2. Non-circular orbits
> 3. The satellite and receiver are both on the equator.
> (And the other hacks frequently used by General Relativity Gurus.)
The last three are NOT gr hacks - they're simplifications also used when
calculating any orbital mechanics, particularly in Newtonian cases.
3 simply enables you to ignore \phi as you set d\phi =0 - a simple bit
of Newtonian analysis will show you that any orbital motion stays in a
plane, and all you are doing with 3 is applying a rotation of the
coordinates.
1 - Well, you can use the relevant metric, but the rotation of Earth is
slow enough such that the error is far less then your "equation" gives.
2 - well, all that does is enable you to ignore dr changes. Considering
the satellites ARE in circular orbits, your reasoning is false.
Unlike you I HAVE a physics degree, finishing my masters AND have a PhD
place ready for autumn, loon.
Phineas T Puddleduck
>
> As can be seen from above,
> I computed the oscillator offset used by the GPS oscillators
> using the "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation:
> f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
>
> and got a shifted frequency of 1.00000000054444444
>
> Subtracting one (1.0..) I got the difference:
> 5.4*10^-10
And the correction is 38,000 ns. Your equation is not CLASSICAL as
classical mechanics says c is infinite, which you dance around like a
fool. What you are using is a form of
g = GM/r^2
so what you are using is actually
\nu = \nu_0 \times \left( 1 + \frac{GM}{2rc^2} \right)
Which is actually a wrong form of the Schwarzschild correction, the term
in the bracket is ACTUALLY
\frac{2GM}{rc^2}
Your term is out by a factor of 4.
bz
@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> Actually, the GPS satellites are in geosynch - that is closer to
> 36,000km.
>
The nominal orbital period of a GPS satellite is one half of a sidereal day
or 11 hr 58 min ... The orbital radius is approximately 26600 km
http://www.palowireless.com/gps/tutorial2.asp
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
T Wake
> On Apr 13, 12:36 am, "T Wake" <usenet.es...@gishpuppy.com> wrote:
>> "Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineaspuddled...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:phineaspuddleduck-B...@news.octanews.com...
>>
>> > In article <1176345559.559510.148...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> > "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
>> >> compute the GPS oscillator offset,
>> >> when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
>> >> does it just fine.
>>
>> > It was 300 years ago recently.
>>
>> > And BTW Galilieo died in 1642.
>>
>> Potter hasn't quite mastered this calendar thing yet. Although in the
>> strictest sense, it was *over* 200 years ago. He could have easily said
>> over
>> a week ago as well, and still been correct.
>
> Much ado about nothing.
Yeah, accuracy in theories is pretty unimportant, isn't it?
I mean, it is reasonable to have thought Galileo was promoting his ideas
3000 years ago, isn't it?
T Wake
"Phineas T Puddleduck" <phineasp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:phineaspuddleduck-D...@news.octanews.com...
> In article <1176438524....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Puddleduck raises a good point
>> about the utility of General Relativity,
>>
>> when he points out that Taylor/Wheeler
>> devoted a whole book to
>> computing the offset used in the GPS system.
>
>
> Chapter != Book.
Well, remember we are talking about potter here.
T Wake
> In article <pan.2007.04.13....@bisexuals.for.lgbt.freedom>,
> The Secretary of HomIntern <cbcrf...@zrbj.bet> wrote:
>
>> ow, I understand that you are a high school graduate, and have taken
>> > some physics classes,
>> > and I suggest that it would be a good experience for you to work
>> > directly with General Relativity, and see how many hacks it takes you
>> > to
>> > come up with the number that Galileo and Newton could have computed
>> > centuries ago.
>> >
>> > that the frequency offset is not really essential but as far as I can
>> > see, NONE of the Charlatans that hype GTR seem to comprehend why the
>> > frequency offset is used in the first place.
>> >
>> > as it would expose the big lie that GTR was and is essential to the GPS
>> > system.
>> >
>> > needs to GTR to come up with the number I computed above.
>> >
>>
>> For his unsupported contention that Galileo could have calculated the
>> General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models, with no
>> help at all from any later scientists, I do hereby nominate Tom Potter
>> for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
>> weird science. Weird history, too.
>>
>> Seconds?
>
>
> Yes. Potter's been espousing his 200/300/3000 year old formula for as
> long as he can manage.
>
> Seconded!
The wonders of a cut and paste.
Thirded (if such a thing were necessary)
T Wake
> On Apr 13, 4:22 am, "Glynn Haswell" <hungry-lady-of-easy-vir...@rough-
> slime-slit.org> wrote:
>> The Secretary of HomIntern <cbcrfan...@zrbj.bet> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:56:54 -0700,Tom Potterk'lamed:
>> >> "Eric Gisse" wrote...
>> >>> On Apr 11, 9:10 pm, "Tom Potter" wrote: [...]
>>
>> >>>> Gisse's goal in life:
>> >>>> "trying to understand how the universe works"
>>
>> >>>> reminded me of a Rodney Dangerfield movie where he had a job
>> >>>> trying to teach chimps to "understand how the universe works".
>>
>> >>>> Rodney commented that they should first teach the chimps how to go
>> >>>> to the bathroom.
>>
>> >>> You are just bitter.
>>
>> >>> Before you spew some more, how about explaining what the 13 hacks of
>> >>> general relativity are.
>>
>> >> f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
>>
>> >> 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters, and "C" is about 300,000,000
>> >> meters per second, in the case of the GPS system in Earth orbit.
>>
>> >> Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444, and subtracting one (1.0..)
>> >> to get the difference, we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the
>> >> number used in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
>> >> of the "P code" offset.
>>
>> >> "GPS", the various General Relativity Charlatans don't use this
>> >> simple model, but instead use various number of hacks of GTR
>> >> number that can be
>> >> computed using the model discovered over 300 years ago by Galileo,
>> >> and used by Newton to compute many things about the Earth, including
>> >> its' shape, density, the tides in many places, etc.
>>
>> > come up with E=mc^2 centuries ago, based on a model Galileo invented?
>> > Riiiiiiiiight.
>>
>> >> (England sent ships all over the world with standard pendulums, and
>> >> they counted the number of swings of these pendulums from sunrise to
>> >> sunrise.)
>>
>> >> (Pendulums are oscillators, and like all<?> oscillators, their
>> >> angular velocity is affected by acceleration.)
>>
>> >> some physics classes,
>> >> and I suggest that it would be a good experience for you to work
>> >> directly with General Relativity, and see how many hacks it takes
>> >> you to come up with the number that Galileo and Newton could have
>> >> computed centuries ago.
>>
>> >> I must again point out,
>> >> that the frequency offset is not really essential but as far as I can
>> >> see, NONE of the Charlatans that hype GTR seem to comprehend why the
>> >> frequency offset is used in the first place.
>>
>> >> Maybe some GTR Charlatans know about this but don't want to discuss
>> >> it, as it would expose the big lie that GTR was and is essential to
>> >> the GPS system.
>>
>> >> I will be looking forward to seeing Gisse demonstrate how many hacks
>> >> he needs to GTR to come up with the number I computed above.
>>
>> >> I wonder if he can do it in less than 13 hacks?
>>
>> > For his unsupported contention that Galileo could have calculated the
>> > General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models, with no
>> > for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
>> > weird science. Weird history, too.
>>
>> > Seconds?
>>
>>
>> "General Relativity Charlatans... use various number of hacks of GTR
>> depending upon their preference, in order to come up with the same
>> number..."
>>
>> Really means:
>>
>> "General Relativity Charlatans... use 1 + 1 = 2, or 3 + 4 + -5 = 2, or 1
>> + 2
>> + 3 - 4 = 2 in order to come up with 2..."
>>
>> And because this:
>>
>> "Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444, and subtracting one (1.0..)
>> to get the difference, we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the
>> number used in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
>> of the "P code" offset."
>>
>>
>> "Computing we get: 2 which is basically the number of eggs a
>> non-specific
>> chicken surely laid yesterday."
>>
>> And because this:
>>
>> "which is basically the number"
>>
>> attention there at all then I might get away with this bullshit."
>>
>> And because this:
>>
>> "basically"
>>
>> Really means: Coincidentally.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> "A stuck pig squeals."
>
> It appears that my post about General Relativity
> has a few Einstein cult members
> all bent out of shape.
>
> Here is the post that set them squealing:
>
> "Sam raises a good point about " fruitful models",
> as it is sometimes helpful to remind folks
> about what is,
> and what isn't "fruitful".
>
> After Newton's model,
> there were immediate and rapid advances
> in mechanics, astronomy, etc.
>
> After Maxwell's model
> there were immediate and rapid advances
> in chemistry, electricity, etc.
>
> After Watson's and Crick's DNA model
> there were immediate and rapid advances
> in medicine, genetics, animal husbandry,
> the history of the Earth and Mankind, etc.
>
> I noticed in the news in the last few days,
> that the DNA model was recently used to develop
> a new form of rice that will prevent 500,000 children
> from going blind EVERY YEAR,
> and that was used to convert blood types,
> and that people with rare blood types will have a safe
> supply of blood in the future.
>
> As can be seen Newton's, Maxwell's and the DNA model
> are being used daily **in the free market** in "fruitful" ways,
>
> where as, as can be seen by the recent news,
>
> over one billion of the tax payers dollars have been spent
> on just one of the many projects to rationalize General Relativity
> ( Gravity Probe-B ).
>
> Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
> in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
> the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
> who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
> that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
>
> and it continues to generate more hype and tax spending
> than light and "fruit".
>
> Can you imagine the benefits to mankind
> if some of that one billion dollars was used
> in "fruitful" ways on DNA projects? "
Wait until after the vote before you start with your acceptance speeches.
T Wake
> On Apr 13, 5:59 am, Phineas T Puddleduck <phineaspuddled...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> In article <1176432935.953460.99...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Here we are, 100 years after General Relativity
>> > and it continues to generate more hype and tax spending
>> > than light and "fruit".
>>
>> > Can you imagine the benefits to mankind
>> > if some of that one billion dollars was used
>> > in "fruitful" ways on DNA projects? "
>>
>> You have a point. We could perhaps remove terminal idiocy, similar to
>> yourself, from our gene pool.
>
> It is interesting to see
> that Phineas T Puddleduck,
> an unemployed computer programmer
Your massive amounts of Bad Science is matched only with your Bad History
and here we get a blinding example of how your Bad Reading has meant you
haven't followed what people have said in the past.
> seems to be of the opinion that
>
> people who make statement that expose urban legends,
> parrots, and charlatans
> should be removed from the gene pool,
>
> and that the taxpayers money should be used
> to support childish, unemployed, dishonest, neurotic clowns
> who contaminate science newsgroups
> with lies, insults, and childish remarks.
>
> Regarding Phineas T Puddleduck's comment
> "our gene pool", I dare say that no
> rational, intelligent, mature, honest, heterosexual person
> would want to share Phineas T Puddleduck's genes.
>
Working the campaign trail hard, I see.
T Wake
>
> Sorry, I don't have any more time to play today,
> as I have other fish to fry,
> and PARROTS to roast.
As if you have done anything but get spnaked constantly here....
> I'll try to get back to your silly posts in a day or so.
Take your time. 3000 years would be good.
> Bye bye.
>
> Polly want a cracker?
You are such a funny guy.
T Wake
> On Apr 13, 4:01 am, The Secretary of HomIntern <cbcrfan...@zrbj.bet>
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 04:56:54 -0700,Tom Potterk'lamed:
>
>>> General Theory of Relativity based on one of his own models, with no
>>> for the Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award. That is _very_
>>> weird science. Weird history, too.
>
> but I do know that he is a bare faced liar,
> who is determined to make Galileo look bad,
> perhaps because Galileo was a Catholic,
> perhaps because Galileo was an Italian,
> perhaps because "The Secretary of HomIntern " worships Einstein,
> perhaps because Galileo was not Jewish.
>
> (Or perhaps because I have exposed the ignorance
> of his buddy (Alter ego?), "Phineas T Puddleduck".)
>
> I challenge this dishonest person to post where I asserted that
> Galileo
> "could have calculated the General Theory of Relativity
>
> As can be seen from my post quoted below,
> I did point out to "Phineas T Puddleduck"
> that the frequency offset used in the GPS system
> can be calculated using information discovered by Galileo
> over 300 years ago.
>
> "As can be seen, "Puddleduck", like most people,
> has been conditioned to give credit for the GPS frequency offset
> to the wrong person.
>
> A frequency offset for the **Galileo** effect is built into the
> clocks. (Although the frequency offset is not really required,
> and the Charlatans that hype General Relativity
> do not even seem to comprehend why the offset is used.)
>
> Galileo Effect - Affect of acceleration on oscillating systems.
> Hubble Effect - Affect of distance on oscillating systems.
> Doppler Effect - Affect of velocity on oscillating systems.
>
> It would be insanity to use 13 hacks of General Relativity to
> compute the GPS oscillator offset,
> when ONE equation discovered by Galileo over 200 years ago
> does it just fine.
>
> as the relative velocity between the birds and receivers
> is constantly changing, and the Hubble Effect is not compensated for
> because it is too small to be a factor.
>
> The "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation is:
> f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
>
> where "g" is about 9.8 meters per seconds^2
> "distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
> and "C" is about 300,000,000 meters per second,
> in the case of the GPS system in Earth orbit.
>
> Computing we get: 1.00000000054444444,
> and subtracting one (1.0..) to get the difference,
> we get the 5.4*10^-10 which is basically the number used
> in the GPS system to offset the "chip rate" (Frequency)
> of the "P code" offset.
>
> over the world with standard pendulums
>
> Newton used this data and the **Galileo** effect
> to compute all kinds of things about the Earth,
> including its' shape, and tides all over the world.
>
> It appears from their articles that the people who
> promote the Urban Legend that General Relativity
> was essential to the GPS system,
> do not even know why the offset to the GPS clock
> is useful, but not essential to the GPS system.
>
> Apparently Einstein has far better press agents
> than Galileo and Newton."
>
> I suggest that anyone who reads
> "that Galileo could have calculated the
>
> into any of my posts should join with
> "Phineas T Puddleduck" and "The Secretary of HomIntern",
> and the other Parrots and Zombies,
> who get all bent out of shape when someone
> exposes their belief in some Urban Legend,
>
> but otherwise I suggest that they should initiate
> a "Liar of the month" award,
> and vote "The Secretary of HomIntern"
> in as the initial member.
>
> I suggest that another good award classification
> would be for the "Urban Legend Parrot of the month"
> and "Phineas T Puddleduck"
> would fit this classification quite well.
Is this an acceptance speech? You really should wait until _after_ the vote
you know. Having said that, with fr0ths like this, the odds of you winning
are VERY good.
I hope Jeff isn't running against you this month as he has no chance against
spew like this.
T Wake
"Art Deco" <er...@caballista.org> wrote in message
news:120420071742135449%er...@caballista.org...
>T Wake <usenet...@gishpuppy.com> wrote:
>
>>"Art Deco" <er...@caballista.org> wrote in message
>>news:120420071054552464%er...@caballista.org...
>>> Phineas T Puddleduck <phineasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <1176346129....@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I understand that Gisse is a high school graduate,
>>>>> and took some physics and math classes,
>>>>> and perhaps he will post why he thinks
>>>>> the frequency offset is used in the GPS system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I understand you are a retired salesman,
>>>>and sold some gizmos to people,
>>>>and perhaps he will post why he thinks this means he
>>>>is capable of understanding what GR actually means.
>>>
>>> I have to give Crackpotter a little credit; at least he can quote and
>>> attribute a post correctly, unlike Relfwit.
>>
>>Has potter won any awards though?
>
> I don't think so, but with Kookle temporarily unavailable, I can't
> very. He has been on the ballot at least once, though.
>
I think he is a strong candidate for VVFWS this month.
bz
@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:
>> > > > "distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
Eric said:
>> > > Actually, the GPS satellites are in geosynch - that is closer to
>> > > 36,000km.
>
actually, you were BOTH wrong.
http://www.palowireless.com/gps/tutorial2.asp
gives the period as ~ 11 hours 58 minutes (twice per sidereal day).
My computations shows an altitude of 20,184 km or an orbital radius of 26,562
km.
Eric appears to be closer closer, only off by ~10,000 km while Tom was off by
~16,000 km.
Note: neither made it clear if they are talking about altitude or orbital
radius. The earths radius must be added to the altitude to get the orbital
radius.
Finally, I suggest that personal insults don't help anyone's case and they
often make reading some postings 'unpleasant'.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz+...@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
bz
news:phineaspuddleduck-7...@news.octanews.com:
> In article <1176441030....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gisse raises a good point!
>>
>> As the satellites are "moving"
>> with respect to all of the GPS receivers,
>> to compensate for General Relativity
>> the oscillators on all of the satellites
>> would have to be offset for
>> all of the receivers using the GPS system.
>
>
> And the derivation I posted includes GR effects to get 38,000 ns
> correction - accuracy to within 10 metres.
>
Note: you used the wrong altitude.
http://www.palowireless.com/gps/tutorial2.asp
[quote]
The satellite constellation consists of the nominal 24-satellite
constellation (the first was launched in 1978 and the 24th in 1994). They
transmit signals (at 1575.42 MHz) that can be detected by receivers on the
ground. The satellites are positioned in six Earth-centred orbital planes
with four satellites in each plane. This means that signals from six of
them can be received 100 percent of the time at any point on earth. The
nominal orbital period of a GPS satellite is one half of a sidereal day or
11 hr 58 min. The orbits are nearly circular and equally spaced about the
equator at a 60° degree separation with an inclination relative to the
equator of nominally 55° degrees. The orbital radius is approximately
26,600 km (i.e., distance from satellite to centre of mass of the earth).
[unquote]
Sam Wormley
> I computed the oscillator offset used by the GPS oscillators
> using the "classical" "gravitational red shift" equation:
> f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
>
> and got a shifted frequency of 1.00000000054444444
>
Potter, you might want to do some self education, by reading
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/icd200/default.htm
Phineas T Puddleduck
bz <bz+...@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu> wrote:
> > And the derivation I posted includes GR effects to get 38,000 ns
> > correction - accuracy to within 10 metres.
> >
>
> Note: you used the wrong altitude.
>
> http://www.palowireless.com/gps/tutorial2.asp
> [quote]
> The satellite constellation consists of the nominal 24-satellite
> constellation (the first was launched in 1978 and the 24th in 1994). They
> transmit signals (at 1575.42 MHz) that can be detected by receivers on the
> ground. The satellites are positioned in six Earth-centred orbital planes
> with four satellites in each plane. This means that signals from six of
> them can be received 100 percent of the time at any point on earth. The
> nominal orbital period of a GPS satellite is one half of a sidereal day or
> 11 hr 58 min. The orbits are nearly circular and equally spaced about the
> equator at a 60° degree separation with an inclination relative to the
> equator of nominally 55° degrees. The orbital radius is approximately
> 26,600 km (i.e., distance from satellite to centre of mass of the earth).
> [unquote]
Thats EF Taylor's derivation.
Art Deco
> f = f0 * ( 1 + 1/2 * g * distance / C^2)
>
>where "g" is about 9.8 meters per seconds^2
>"distance" is about 10,000 kilometers or 10,000,000 meters,
Now this is the Crackpotter I remember, completely delusional. A great
acceptance speech for your nomination, BTW.
--
Supreme Leader of the Brainwashed Followers of Art Deco
"Still suffering from reading comprehension problems, Deco?
The section is clearly attributed to Art Deco, not to you, Deco."
-- Dr. David Tholen
"Who is "David Tholen", Daedalus? Still suffering from
attribution problems?"
-- Dr. David Tholen
Art Deco
>On Apr 13, 5:55 am, Phineas T Puddleduck <phineaspuddled...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> In article <1176432321.630772.130...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > into any of my posts should join with
>> > "Phineas T Puddleduck" and "The Secretary of HomIntern",
>> > and the other Parrots and Zombies,
A lits.
>> > who get all bent out of shape when someone
>> > exposes their belief in some Urban Legend,
>>
>> > but otherwise I suggest that they should initiate
>> > a "Liar of the month" award,
>> > and vote "The Secretary of HomIntern"
>> > in as the initial member.
Fake kook award.
>>
>> > I suggest that another good award classification
>> > would be for the "Urban Legend Parrot of the month"
>> > and "Phineas T Puddleduck"
>> > would fit this classification quite well.
Fake kook award.
>>
>> More froth Pitter?
>
>Polly want a cracker?
A wealth of UV points here, Crackpotter.
>
>--
>Tom Potter
>
>*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Your sig is malformed.
Art Deco
>In article <1176438524....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> using the same model that Newton used
>> over ten minutes ago
>> in computing the shape of the Earth,
>> the tides all over the world, etc.
>>
>> As can be infered from Puddleduck's statement:
>> "provided you can do the math)"
>
>
>So you CANT do Calculus then.
There's a surprise.
Art Deco
>On Apr 13, 6:04 am, Phineas T Puddleduck <phineaspuddled...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> In article <1176432935.953460.99...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Papers on the General Relativity experiment will be forthcoming
>> > in a few days, and maybe, just maybe,
>> > the scientists on the taxpayer dole,
>> > who promoted this project will make the astounding announcement
>> > that "Yes Virginia, frame dragging MIGHT occur."
>>
>> Here you go...
>>
>> http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/projecta.pdf
>>
>> Edwin Taylor has provided the WHOLE chapter on calculating the relevant
>> offsets with some calculus (you CAN do calculus, right?) with full help
>> and explanations.
>>
>> Put your money where your mouth is, loser.
>>
>> "The timing accuracy required by the GPS is so great that general
>> relativistic effects are central to its performance. First, clocks run
>> at different rates when they are at different distances from a center of
>> gravitational attraction. Second, both satellite motion and Earth
>> rotation must be taken into account; neither the moving satellite nor
>> Earth零 surface corresponds to the stationary spherical shell described
>> in Chapter 2. In this project you will investigate these effects.
>>
>> Your challenge in this project (and in all later projects) is to respond
>> to the numbered queries. (Query 1 for this project appears on page A-4.)
>> Typically, a query contains several related questions. Answer the
>> queries in order, or as assigned to you, or skip to those that interest
>> you the most. "
>>
>> SO - the BALL is in your court.
>
>It is interesting to see that Phineas T Puddleduck
>refers me to a paper by one of the three primary
>General relativity Welfare Scientists,
>who takes nine pages to come up with the answer
>that I came up with in two lines
>using the same model used by Newton
>to computed many things about the Earth,
>including its' shape and tides all over the world.
>
>And note that the author ends his nine page analysis with
>this problem for students such as Phineas T Puddleduck and Gisse.
>
>"A junior traveler, making her frst trip by train from the United
>States into
>Mexico, sees the town of Zacatecas outside her window and reassures
>her-
>self by the marginal note in the guidebook that this ancient silver-
>mining
>town is 1848 kilometers from San Diego, California, and 1506
>kilometers
>from New Orleans, Louisiana. On a surface, two distances thus sufice
>to
>fix location."
>
>Strange???
>It seems to me that there are two places
>on the Earth's surface that are:
>
>"1848 kilometers from San Diego, California,
>and 1506 kilometers from New Orleans, Louisiana."
>
>Hopefully, the General Relativity parrots
>will cease their endless "parroting",
>(Insulting, name calling, equivocating, clowning, referencing......)
>and post, as I did,
>an equation that can be used in computing the
>offset used in the GPS oscillators,
>and actually compute the value.
Translation from Crackpotterese: "I can't do the calculation."
Daedalus
wrote:
It looked like a lot of avoidance to me too.
But, maybe since he's bragged so much about condensing his brilliant
answers in a tiny amount of space compared to the real scientists, we
just can't see his calculations because he did them in one of those
blank spaces between his sentences in microscopic font.
Jade
Art Deco
Hmm, yes. I forgot to use Photoshop and the magic enhancement plug-in
on a screen capture.