Liburnian Toponyms (1)
Abdullah Konushevci
Croatia) with variants Ainona (Ptolem. II 16,2) with clear Latin
replacement of diphthong /ae/ to /ai/ and Elona/Enona (Rav. IV 22; V
14) through regular reading of diphthong /ae/ or /ai/ as simple /e/
testifies that its today's form Nin is formed through Proto-Albanian,
characterized with proverbial aphaeresis of unstressed syllable in
initial position (cf. Astibos > Shtip, Osinium > Sinj , Argyrocastra >
Gjirokastër etc.). The suffix -ona, characteristic for Illyrian
place names, is regularly replaced in Slavic by suffix -in: Salona >
Solin, Narona > Norin, Avlona/Albona > Labin etc., while it was
preserved in Albanian place names: Avlona, Valbona, Grabona etc.
Etymology: According to Udolph, the stem *aen- is the A-language
counterpart of the IE root *ein-, an extension of *ei- 'to go'. Thus
the name could be compared with hydronyms like Aenus fl. (Germania).
Starting from phonetic form *ain- I assume that its proto-form should
be *oi-no- 'one, unique' with regular outcome of PIE *oi > PAlb
ai > e, typical as a first element of compound words (cf. Cletic
Oen-gus).
ADRA, city in Liburnia (Ptolem. II 16,6), variant name Hadre (TP Millr.
IR, col. 462-471), Adrise (Rav. IV 16.).
Etymology: From suffixed form *ad-ra with variant form odra 'water'
in Messapian. This interchange a < > o, to my view, is characteristic
in many Liburnian place names or toponyms: Aenona, but Oenus flumen;
Aplus, but Oplus as well (see later Ort-opla, Oplica); Absorus, but
also Obsora; Art-a, but also Ort (see Ort-opla. Ort-ona, Ort-esi);
Alvona/Ablona, but as well Oblona.
Konushevci
Dusan Vukotic
Have you any valide argumentс to substantiate such an presumption? At
least 90% of the modern Albanian vocabulary is composed of loan words
(borrowed from Greek, Latin and Serbian).
ŠTIP (Serbian words STOPA foot, STUPATI tread, STAPATI merge, ŠTIPATI
pinch, ŠTAP stick, STUB stem etc.). Open the Albanian dictionary and
let us see what you can find there.
SINJ (Serbian SINJ blue; syntagm SINJE MORE blue see)
ĐIROKASTRA (Đorđe Kastriotić, Greek KASTRO citadel, castle; Serbian
KOSTUR skeleton);
tell me what 'kastro' means in Albanian? Have you ever heard the
Serbian folk poem "Marko Kraljević and Mina od Kostura?
ADRIA from the Greek 'hidro' water; Serbian 'jedro' (sail), 'jedrenje'
(sailing); Serbian river JADAR
LAB, LABIN (Serbian OBLIVATI suffuse, OBLJUBITI > POLJUBITI kiss,
LJUBITI kis LIVATI pour in, Lat. LIBATION, German LIEBE, English
LOVE...
As you can see, there is nothing to do with your invented
Proto-Albanian.
DV
DV
Dusan Vukotic
You have forgotten the Roman goddess BELONA! - Proto-Albanian!
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Albi, Alps' part in Japodes country (Strab. VII 314.). Probably from
PIE root *albh-o- 'white' with *bh > b.
ALVONA, today Labin, county Istarska, Croatia. Other documented form
Albona (Plin. NH III 21. Ptolem. II 16,2. TP Miller IR col. 462-471.
Rav. IV 22; V 14.). It seems that we have to deal with extended form
*albh- of PIE root *al- 'to grow, nurish' (cf. Alb shtalb/shtalp
'corn/wheat whose grain is still milky' < *stH- + alb-o, literally
that stays/needs yet to be grown, nourished; shterpë 'sterile',
besides shtjerrë 'lamb'; gjelb-të/njelm-të 'salted' from
*sal-.; thelb 'kernel' < *k'elbh-o.) Roots extended in bilabial
we found also in place name Arba, Alupinum, Krepsa, Delminim etc.
ARBA, today Rab, island and town in Croatia. It is to be noticed that
this place underwent metathesis of liquids: a - r > r - a, regular
sound law in Slavic languages. Documented form Arba (Plin. NH III 21.
Ptolem. II 16,8.).
Etymology: Probably we have same formation, extended bialabial form
*arbh- of PIE root *arH- 'to plow' wit. Albanian arb-en
'field', attested in antonymic pair mal e arben 'in mountain and
field'. This stem is attested also in Arb-on, Illyrian city (Polib.
II 11,15. Steph. s.v.). In Middle Age Albanians were known as Arbn-i
'the land of Arbani' with abstract plural suffix -ia, in Slavic
languages as Rabani and in Greek Arvanites, the source of Turkish
Arnavud. It is also attested in place name Arb-ana and (katundi)
Arban-ash. Tosk form is Arbëri with rhotacism of intervocalic /n/: n >
r / V_V.
Dusan Vukotic
replacement of diphthong /ae/ to /ai/ and Elona/Enona... through
regular reading of diphthong /ae/ or /ai/ as simple /e/ testifies that
its today's form Nin is formed through Proto-Albanian<
KNIN and NIN are the toponyms which names had sprung from the geminated
GON syllable; simmilar to the Biblical Cannan (Hanan, KANAN); Let us
compare now the Greek 'gyneco-, γυναίκα (woman), Serbian 'žena
/ ženka' (woman) and the hebrew 'khanan' (grace, gracious); on the
other side are the Serbian words 'gonjenje', 'gnanje', goniti' (drive,
driving, chase). Hypothetical, there is a great chance that IE and
Semitic languages may be much more related than anyone would have
supposed.
Is the name of the ancient Babylonian King NINO also "formed through
Proto-Albanian"? Do not be silly!; we are all adults here!
In fact, if your mind were more piercing you would notice the logical
connection among words like KING, German KNECHT (farm labourer);
Serbian UGNJETEN (oppressed) and KNEZ (duke, prince).
If you are interested, I am ready to explain this (seemingly unusual)
development of IE words in tiniest details. For free, of course!
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
ARGYRUNTUM with variants Argyrunti, Argerunto, Argerunton, Argyrunto
(Plin. NH III 21. Ptolem. II 16,2 dhe Rav. IV 22; V 14.), today
Starigrad in Kroaci. It is to be pointed out that in Epirus we have the
tribe's name Argyrinoi (Steph. S.v.), till is attested also place
name Argyrocastra, today Gjirokastra.
Connection of the first member argyr- with IE root *arg'- 'to
shine, white' ( PIE *H2erg'-) gives some hope to thoshe that deny
Albanian origin from Illyria, for palatal *g' was treated as simple
velar, but if the argyr- is connected with IE root *arg'-, in this
case we will have as outcome of place name Argyroscastra as
Dhirokastra, for voiced palatal */g'/ would not be treated as pure
velar */g/. We are much more inclined to see first element ar-gyr- as
prefixed form, attested as well in Ar-auzona in Dalamtia, till -gyr
as result of zero-grade form of PIE root *g'erH2- that have yielded
in Albanian grua 'woman' (cf. Greek ge:ras 'old age'), because
if palatal is followed by liquids, it was treated as simple velar.
Croatian name Starigrad "Old Town" will now has true meaning as
calqued form of Ar-gyr-untum.
Dusan Vukotic
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
Probably from
> PIE root *albh-o- 'white' with *bh > b.
PIE basis for 'white' could be only BEL. ALB is metathesis of BEL. In
fact, BEL-GON, Serbian BELINA (whitness), BELO (white). THis word is
coming right from the ancient sun god Bel. Greeks and Latins used to
begin the foreign names with vocals; for instance 'Αἴγυπτος'
(Egypt); Copt - native Egyptian name. Belina > Abelina > Albino; Labin
> Albin > Albona
> ALVONA, today Labin, county Istarska, Croatia. Other documented form
> Albona (Plin. NH III 21. Ptolem. II 16,2. TP Miller IR col. 462-471.
> Rav. IV 22; V 14.). It seems that we have to deal with extended form
> *albh- of PIE root *al- 'to grow, nurish' (cf. Alb shtalb/shtalp
> 'corn/wheat whose grain is still milky' < *stH- + alb-o, literally
No, Labin is the original Slavic name, later deformed by the Romans;
also LIVNO (from Serbian 'livanje' (pouring). Lat. libatio; LIVANJE
(LIVATI, LIVENJE) is aphaeresis of OBLIVANJE, OBLIVATI, OBLITI
(suffuse), the basic form from which were derived other Serbian words
as PLIVANJE, PLIVATI (swimming), PLOVITI, PLUTATI (sail, float),
PLAVITI (flooding).
Abdulah's *stH- + alb-o is a total nonsense; the matter is that Albanin
'shtalb' came from the same source as the Latin STABILIS (Serb. STABLO
log, trunk, stem; USTAVA dam, sluice; ZAUSTAVLJANJE stoppage); STA+BEL;
other Serbian words STUB (stem), STAVLJANJE, STAVITI (putting, setting,
laying, put), STAPATI, STAPANJE from STABLJANJE (merging) wherefrom
TOPLJENJE (melting), STUPANJE from STUBLJANJE (treading, stteping);
compare STOPA, STOPALO (foot) and STUB, STABLO (log, trunk, stem);
Fnally, there is the Serbian USTALJiVANJE (stabilize) from
USTABLJIVANJE (obtaining the form of the ripe stem, getting ripe) and
this completely explains the origin of the Albanian SHTALP.
DV
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
ARUPINIUM (Strab. IV 207; VII 315). Aruccia (Ptolem. II 16,6), Parupion
(Rav. IV 22), today Veliko i Malo Vitlon in Prozor.
Etymology: Form Arup-ini-um, like Aig-ini-on, Birzim-ini-um
(Podgorica), Delm-ini-um, (terra) Germ-ini-orum, Monet-ini-um, Os-
ini-um, Riz-ini-on, Ulc-ini-on, testifies that we have to deal with
Illyrian place name in collective plural suffix -ini-, so problematic
is the first element arup-, that could be a bilabial extension *arup-
of the root aru- (*H2eru-) 'to pray, curse' (cf.. Greek araomai
'I pray'). I like to mention that in this locality were found many
necropolis of late bronze age. It is considered one of richest
archeological locality of Japodes, Illyrian tribe. But, if we see in
ar- a prefix attested i Ar-gyr-untum and Ar-auz-ona, then -up is yet
unexplained. (Mallory-Adams h2eru- 356.)
Dusan Vukotic
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
ARUPINIUM is the present Dalmatian town ROVINJ. It is the clear-cut
Slavic/Serbian name, which sprung from the HOR-BEL ur-basis. There are
the other similar names from the same source, like Krapina (Croatia),
Krupanj (SErbia), Ripanj (suburb of Belgrade; beneath AVALA!!! ),
Rovine (Romania). Additional Serbian words needed for the understanding
of the name ARUPINUM:
RAVAN (flat, plain surface), GRBA (gibbosity, hummock; Serb.
humka!), HRAPAV (hoarse, coarse), HRSKAV (crisp, crunchy), HRSKAVICA
(cartilage, gristle), GRABITI (grab), (H)RVATI (wrestle, grappling),
RUPA (hole, hollow; Serb. kolo, kaljuga), ROVITI (rout, rabble, dig),
ROV (ditch, trench).
In this case, our interest should be focused on the words RUPA
(hallow), ROV (trench), the verb ROVITI (dig, rout), RAVNATI (level,
make even; opposite of ROVITI rout) and the word URVINE (debris,
rubble). Finally, compare this with the Latin URBANUS (of the city,
urbane) and, I hope, you will be able to grasp that your Proto-Albanian
is nothing else but the worst kind of jerry-built fairy tale!
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
AUSANCALIO, non-idetified place in Liburnia. Ausankalei (Ptolem. II
16,6. TP Miller Ir col. 462-471.)
Etymology: To my view this place name could be segmented as aus-,
colored form of the root *H2eus- 'draw water' and suffixed plural
form -ank-al-iyo 'to bend' of the root *onk- 'to bend'.
Testimony that root *aus- is linked with water are the river names
Ausentus flument (Etruria), Ausentum lumen (Kalabri), Auser lumen,
Ausoba flumen etc. With dialectal form ous- it appears in many
toponyms, like Celadussae, Melitoussa (Polyb. 13,10,9; Steph. s.v.). It
appears in compound ushuj 'lader' from *us-ud-n-yo and ushujzë
'leech' < *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer' and in
many place names abundant in water sources: Rad-usha, Mir-usha,
Kr-usha, Vell-usha etc. About the presence of the words of same
semantic fields in river names it is worth to be seen our analysis of
hydronyms and toponyms: Valb-ona (*wel- 'to turn', NE well) from
o-grade bilabial extended form *wolb-, Shkumbini flumen (< *(s)kemp-
'to bend'), Klina flumen (*k'lei- 'to bend') from suffixed
zero-grade form *k'li-na: etc.
Douglas G. Kilday
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> AENONA, city in Liburnia (Plin. NH III 21, today village Nin in
> Croatia) with variants Ainona (Ptolem. II 16,2) with clear Latin
> replacement of diphthong /ae/ to /ai/ and Elona/Enona (Rav. IV 22; V
> 14) through regular reading of diphthong /ae/ or /ai/ as simple /e/
> testifies that its today's form Nin is formed through Proto-Albanian,
> characterized with proverbial aphaeresis of unstressed syllable in
> initial position (cf. Astibos > Shtip, Osinium > Sinj , Argyrocastra >
> Gjirokastër etc.). The suffix -ona, characteristic for Illyrian
> place names, is regularly replaced in Slavic by suffix -in: Salona >
> Solin, Narona > Norin, Avlona/Albona > Labin etc., while it was
> preserved in Albanian place names: Avlona, Valbona, Grabona etc.
> Etymology: According to Udolph, the stem *aen- is the A-language
> counterpart of the IE root *ein-, an extension of *ei- 'to go'. Thus
> the name could be compared with hydronyms like Aenus fl. (Germania).
The river of Germania which has been Latinized as Aenus (probably by
analogy with a different river Aenus in Thessaly) cannot be reduced to
a stem *ein-. The modern forms (German Inn, Rhaetic En) require a
geminated protoform *enn-. The neuter gender of this river-name (now
only in Upper Austria, but generally in Middle High German) is quite
exceptional.
J.U. Hubschmied in _Bezeichnungen von Göttern und Dämonen als
Flussnamen_ [Bern 1947, p. 21] explained das Inn on the basis of a
Gaulish neuter *Ennon 'Bird', from Proto-Celtic *etnon (whence Welsh
<edn>, Irish <én>, Gaelic <eun> 'bird'), from PIE *petH2-no- < *petH2-
'to fly' (a similar animate neuter is Greek <teknon> 'child'). In H.'s
view, the Gauls identified the river with an avian deity, and the
ancient Germans maintained the neuter gender when they borrowed the
river-name. (For a neuter deity in modern religion, we need look no
further than <to hagion pneuma>.)
> Starting from phonetic form *ain- I assume that its proto-form should
> be *oi-no- 'one, unique' with regular outcome of PIE *oi > PAlb
> ai > e, typical as a first element of compound words (cf. Cletic
> Oen-gus).
>
> ADRA, city in Liburnia (Ptolem. II 16,6), variant name Hadre (TP Millr.
> IR, col. 462-471), Adrise (Rav. IV 16.).
> Etymology: From suffixed form *ad-ra with variant form odra 'water'
> in Messapian. This interchange a < > o, to my view, is characteristic
> in many Liburnian place names or toponyms: Aenona, but Oenus flumen;
> Aplus, but Oplus as well (see later Ort-opla, Oplica); Absorus, but
> also Obsora; Art-a, but also Ort (see Ort-opla. Ort-ona, Ort-esi);
> Alvona/Ablona, but as well Oblona.
I am skeptical about this apparently random interchange of /a/ and /o/.
In Messapic <odra> the /o/ reflects *u from the zero-grade of PIE
*wed-. The other examples you give have /o/ in initial position before
a consonantal cluster, and I wonder whether they might be similarly
explained from zero-grades of roots in *w-. As a guess, perhaps the
names in Ort- are based on *wert- 'to turn', in the sense 'place where
one turns (aside)' (cf. Lat. <deversorium> 'inn, lodging,
resting-place').
Adra/Hadre/Adrise in Liburnia probably has the same Illyrian root as
Adria/Hadria and Atria in NE Italy (for local dialectal devoicing cf.
Padua/Patavium, etc.), cognate with *Adra > Atter(see), Atter(gau),
Adrana > Eder, etc., meaning 'watercourse' but not related to PIE *wed-.
Abdullah Konushevci
According to H. Krahe all these place names are derived from Adranos,
armed god with nature of Ares and Hephestos. His cult was probably
introduced into Sicily by Phoenicians, so they have all teophoric
characteristics, that seems reasonable, but according to Pokorny they
are all derived from *ad(u)- 'water current'.
Dusan Vukotic
Maybe Serbian UZVODNO uz-vod-no (go/sail up the stream);
Serb. IZVADITI (take out) litt. iz + vode (out + water);
Interesting (!), is the Serbian IZVADAK the father of the Abdulah's
Proto-Albanian 'water drawer'? -;)
Where did you find 'ushujzë' (leech)? Might it have been 'shushunjë'?
Is it from Geg or Tosk language?
It may be interesting for eventual fans of Proto-Albanian to know that
Geg is used in the north and Tosk is used in the south of Albania.
Standard/Literary Albanian was barely codified in the early '70s. In
their purest vernacular forms, Geg and Tosk are inherently
unintelligible.The difference between Geg and Tosk is enourmous. Two
persons, one from far north and one from far south can not understand
each other at all.
The tosk language is more similar to the literary language and thus it
is easier to be understood by most of the albanian speaking persons.
The Kosovo Albanian people speak the northern dialect - gegërisht.
The problem with the Kosovo people speaking Albanian is that they often
use foreign words - a mixture of languages to be called Albanian.
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
> < *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer'>
> Maybe Serbian UZVODNO uz-vod-no (go/sail up the stream);
> Serb. IZVADITI (take out) litt. iz + vode (out + water);
> Interesting (!), is the Serbian IZVADAK the father of the Abdulah's
> Proto-Albanian 'water drawer'? -;)
>
> Where did you find 'ushujzë' (leech)? Might it have been 'shushunjë'?
> Is it from Geg or Tosk language?
>
Alb. ushunjzë 'leech' ("Oxford Albanian-English Dictionary" by Leonard
Newmark, Tiranë, 2000, pp. 907) with synonym 'shushunjë' in Tosk
dialect.
Italo
Adranos has the nature of Hephaestus because the deity
represents mt.Etna. I wonder if in the case of the name of
this god and the indigenous town of Adranos, rather as
connecting it to Adria etc or to the Syrian Hadaranes (also
as the Phoenicians mainly concentrated in the western part
of the island), it can instead be linked to Berber
Adar/Adrar 'mountain' (from which evidently also the name of
mt.Dyris/Atlas).
Abdullah Konushevci
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> ARGYRUNTUM with variants Argyrunti, Argerunto, Argerunton, Argyrunto
> (Plin. NH III 21. Ptolem. II 16,2 dhe Rav. IV 22; V 14.), today
> Starigrad in Kroaci. It is to be pointed out that in Epirus we have the
> tribe's name Argyrinoi (Steph. S.v.), till is attested also place
> name Argyrocastra, today Gjirokastra.
> Connection of the first member argyr- with IE root *arg'- 'to
> shine, white' ( PIE *H2erg'-) gives some hope to thoshe that deny
> Albanian origin from Illyria, for palatal *g' was treated as simple
> velar, but if the argyr- is connected with IE root *arg'-, in this
> case we will have as outcome of place name Argyroscastra as
> Dhirokastra, for voiced palatal */g'/ would not be treated as pure
> velar */g/. We are much more inclined to see first element ar-gyr- as
> prefixed form, attested as well in Ar-auzona in Dalamtia, till -gyr
> as result of zero-grade form of PIE root *g'erH2- that have yielded
> in Albanian grua 'woman' (cf. Greek ge:ras 'old age'), because
> if palatal is followed by liquids, it was treated as simple velar.
> Croatian name Starigrad "Old Town" will now has true meaning as
> calqued form of Ar-gyr-untum.
Reading Krahes' book "Die alten Balkanillyrischen geographischen namen"
I found (page 80) also: "Ar-on-ia opp. - Ario:n fl. - Ar-do:tion opp.
(vgl. Epi-dotio).".
Dusan Vukotic
Rijeka Dubrovačka (Arion), the ancient town Arion (if I remeber well,
somewhere in Macedonia), Arion the Greek legendary poet, Orion,
Heracles;
The name of KORČULA (island in Dalmatia) sprung from the same source
as the Greek HERACLEA (the name of a large number of ancient cities
founded by the Greeks). In addition, there is the Greek name of
KORČULA - KORKYRA (in Greek mythology Korkyra was the daughter of
Asopos river and nymph Metope; probably l > r rothacism in Korkyla -
Heraclea).
In Serbian language KORČITI (KRČITI) means 'trimming', 'cutting of
woods', 'land cultivation' (cf. KROĆENJE taming, SKRAĆIVANJE shorten,
USKRAĆIVANJE forbiddance, debar, abridge, interdict); Serb. oni su
KRČILI zemlju (they cultivated the land).
Additional Serbian words referring to the ur-basis HOR-GON and the
above KORČULA:
HARANJE/ARČENJE/HARATI (harry, raven, pillage), UKORITI (reprimand,
scold, rebuke, lecture, objurgate, reprehend, reprove); now you see
that HARAČ is the Serbian word; from HARANJE (pillaging, plundering);
as you know, Ottoman Pashas did occasionally employ Albanians, mainly
as mercenaries and collectors of the so called "harač" - a tax paid by
non-Moslems in the Ottoman Empire).
The Serbian names Đuro, Đorđe, Đurađ (Georg) and surnames Gerić,
Herak are in the clear relation with Heracles. NJEGOŠ (KNEGUS, KNEZ,
KING) is the greatest Serbian poet who originated from the HERAK tribal
brotherhood (NJEGUŠI a village in southern Montenegro; hence the
reigning Serbian family NJEGOŠ; Amharic nigūs; "nəgusä nägäst"
king of kings; semitic root NGS "to reign"; GON-GON, KNEGINJA princess;
KNEZ prince, KING, K/NEGUS the czar, the KING NINO, KNIN and NIN places
in Dalmatia).
Do you KNOW (your Proto-Albanian KNIGHT-hood) what is the meaning of
the Serbian words NAGON and NAGONITI? If you KNOW you are ready for the
real KNOWLEDGE Revelation (ZNALAČKO Otkrovenje).
You had better stop talking nonsense about the unexisting Illyrian or
your invented Proto-Albanian language. Only fools and horses could
continue to work on your vacant thoughts, maybe those uncritical people
on Cybalist; the people like Gasiorowski whom you have threatened with
divorce in case that someone had posted the message which would be in
contradiction with the imagined PROTO-ALBANIAN WORLD.
DV
Dusan Vukotic
Diryis, the Berber Idrarn/ Adrar; Dyris (Strabo), Daran (Plinius)
Hephaistos God of Smiths & Craftsmen; from the Serbian KOVATI (hammer,
coin, weld, forge) in connection with the verb KVASITI (dabble,
moisten), in fact U OKOV STATI (be fettered; there from possible
philosophic link between 'water' and 'fetter'); Serbian Gvožđe/GVOZD
iron; GVOZD = HEFEST! The same logic: Serbian ZVEZDA (star; Czech
HVEZDA); the ancient man believed that Hephaistos (Serbian personal
name GVOZD, GVOZDEN) hammered the stars. Actually Hephaistos is the
name from the same stem as the Serbian KOVAČ (smith, forger,
blacksmith, farrier); KOVANJE (hammering) from the ur-basis
GON-BEL-GON.
On the other side, we have the Serbian word UDAR (strike, clap, clout,
shock, bump, hit), which is close to the Greek ύδωρ (water, aqua).
What has happened in reality? During the hammering, it is necessary to
hit the surface of a certain object in order to change its form (Serb.
UDARATI). I must admit, such a comparison seems frivolous, at least at
first sight.
Nevertheless, let us now mention the Serbian word POTERATI (from the
basis BEL-HOR) POHARATI (plunder), POGURATI (push forward), POKRET
(movement), POĆERATI => POTERATI (to hunt, chase, drive, persuit; the
role of 'pater' or 'father' was to lead his tribe and keep the order
inside his home); and from the BEL-GON basis POBUDITI (to irritate,
vex), POVODITI (follow something or someone), POVESTI (lead), VOĐA
(leader).
Obviously, the Serbian VODA and the English WATER did not come from the
same source (WATER belongs to BEL-HOR basis while VODA sprung from the
BEL-GON well). Even if we use the augmentative of VODA (VODURINA) the
stem o these two words is different. In Serbian the words BUĐENJE
(waking up), VIĐENJE (seeing) and VOĐENJE (leading) were derived from
the ancient BEL-GON basis (Serb. POGON drive, propulsion). In fact,
BELI DAN (white day, BEL-GON, BALKAN) is the "secret" instigator of the
earthly movement and VODA (VODENO aqueous, aquatic) is the most
prominent movable "medium", capable of being moved or transferred from
one place to another (Serb. BEL-GON => POGON propulsion => POĆI go).
The BUĐENJE (waking) is the first impulse (POGON) for the living
creatures on earth when the BELI DAN (white day, morning) dispersed the
dense darkness of the night. Of course, it is unnecessary to say that
after BUĐENJE (waking) the VIĐENJE (seeing) steps on the scene.
Let us go back to the WATER (BEL-HOR) and try to see the eventual
relation among WATER, PATER, FATHER, the Serbian POTERA (pursuit,
chase) and UDAR (strike, hit). Between the Serbian words POTERATI
(persuit) and UDAR (strike) we shall find the word UTERATI (drive into,
hunt down) and the logical consequence is: there is nothing you can
drive into (or hunt down) without the use of force - in other words
without striking (Serb. UDAR)! In Serbian, the words BODAR (vigorous,
sprightly, brisk, healthy), VEDAR (sunny, vivacious, fair, bright,
serene, shiny) and JEDAR (sturdy, healthy) appeared to be the branches
of the same stem (BEL-HOR). In order to resolve this enigma we are
going to invite the Serbian word VETAR (sprung from the same source as
the English WATER) or more better, its iekavian variant VJETAR.
Bingo! Now it becomes clear that sailing is impossible without the wind
(Serbian VJETAR) and without the sail (JEDRO); we see that JEDRENJE
(sailing) is nothing else but VJETRENJE (airing or the use of the
wind-power for the purpose of propulsion). The same happened to the
word JEDAR (BODAR/VEDAR) and (BODRINA/VEDRINA) JEDRINA health; hence
the Greek ιατρεία (medicine). The similar changes we have in the
Serbian words SUTRA / SJUTRA (tomorrow) => JUTRO (morning).
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
> AUSANCALIO, non-idetified place in Liburnia. Ausankalei (Ptolem. II
> 16,6. TP Miller Ir col. 462-471.)
> Etymology: To my view this place name could be segmented as aus-,
> colored form of the root *H2eus- 'draw water' and suffixed plural
> form -ank-al-iyo 'to bend' of the root *onk- 'to bend'.
> Testimony that root *aus- is linked with water are the river names
> Ausentus flument (Etruria), Ausentum lumen (Kalabri), Auser lumen,
> Ausoba flumen etc. With dialectal form ous- it appears in many
> toponyms, like Celadussae, Melitoussa (Polyb. 13,10,9; Steph. s.v.). It
> appears in compound ushuj 'lader' from *us-ud-n-yo and ushujzë
> 'leech' < *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer' and in
> many place names abundant in water sources: Rad-usha, Mir-usha,
> Kr-usha, Vell-usha etc. About the presence of the words of same
> semantic fields in river names it is worth to be seen our analysis of
> hydronyms and toponyms: Valb-ona (*wel- 'to turn', NE well) from
> o-grade bilabial extended form *wolb-, Shkumbini flumen (< *(s)kemp-
> 'to bend'), Klina flumen (*k'lei- 'to bend') from suffixed
> zero-grade form *k'li-na: etc.
BLANONA (Ptolem. II 16,6), Blandona (TP Miller IR cik. 474-476). It was
treated generally as counterpart of place name Flanona (Plomin). Its
relics is supposed to be found in Biograd na Moru in Croatia. Slavic
form Plomin speaks of betacism, very characteristic for South-Slavic
languages.
Etymology: With suffix -ona it belongs to wide group of Illyrian
place names. If we take as a calque Croatian form Biograd na Moru, then
its etymology could be explained from active participle form *bhle-nt-,
variant form of PIE *bhel- 'shine, white'. As I have proved many
time, group(s) *-en(t)/-em(t) have yielded usually in Albanian
-an(d)/-am. For reduction -nt- > -nd- > -n- see Alb anë 'end,
side' < *H2ent-eH2. So, phonetically speaking, even the variant form
Blandona was much later attested seems to be much older form then
Blanona. (Pokorny 1. bhel- 118.)
Dusan Vukotic
Poor Abdullah!
Blanona is the one of the many variants of the Roman goddess Belona
(Valona, Avlona, Ablona) and it came from the ur-basis BEL-GON were
from we have the other Slavic toponyms as VELES, BALKAN, BELASICA,
PELJEŠAC, BLACE, BLAGAJ, BOJANA, VELIKA PLANA(!), BAČKA PALANKA,
PELAGONIJA. the national names POLAK, WALACHIAN (Romanized Slavs);
historical names as PELAZGI and VELEGEZITI (the Romans noted the names
of the Serbian tribes according to their hearing; Dragovites
(Dragovići), Velegezites (Poleksići, Velakići, Velikići,
Veličkovići, Vlačići), Berzites (Brzići, Brezići, Brežani).
The same and similar toponymic names could be found all over the Europe
(Bologna, for instance). Are you going to say that the whole Old
Continent was once a mighty Sqipetar-Illyrian Empire? Every one can see
(find the medieval maps) that the toponyms in the north of the modern
Germany once were the same as those in Balkan.
You can not take te name BIOGRAD (BELGRADE) as a calque simple because
it has been compounded from BEL (belo white) and GRAD (town, city) BELI
GRAD (white town) and I do not see how the name BLANONA could be
translated as BIOGRAD. Finally, there is the Serbian word PLANINA
(mountain) and, according to your Shqiptar-Illyrian hypotheses, this
word must be a calque from the adopted (foreign) name of your Shqiperia
- ALBANIA.
In one of the preceding messages, Franz Gnaedinger wrote: "Abdullah
Konushevci argues carefully, on the basis of a linguistic knowledge". I
hope, after all these Abdulah's pranks, he (and all other fans of the
nonexistent Illyrian) will understand the massiveness of the
IDYLLIC-ILLYRIC delusion.
DV
lora...@cs.com
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
> Diryis, the Berber Idrarn/ Adrar; Dyris (Strabo), Daran (Plinius)
>
> Hephaistos God of Smiths & Craftsmen; from the Serbian KOVATI (hammer,
> coin, weld, forge) in connection with the verb KVASITI (dabble,
> moisten), in fact U OKOV STATI (be fettered; there from possible
> philosophic link between 'water' and 'fetter');
Don't think so.
> Serbian Gvožđe/GVOZD
> iron; GVOZD = HEFEST! The same logic: Serbian ZVEZDA (star; Czech
> HVEZDA); the ancient man believed that Hephaistos (Serbian personal
> name GVOZD, GVOZDEN) hammered the stars. Actually Hephaistos is the
> name from the same stem as the Serbian KOVAČ (smith, forger,
> blacksmith, farrier); KOVANJE (hammering) from the ur-basis
> GON-BEL-GON.
Don't think so.
> On the other side, we have the Serbian word UDAR (strike, clap, clout,
> shock, bump, hit), which is close to the Greek ύδωρ (water, aqua).
> What has happened in reality? During the hammering, it is necessary to
> hit the surface of a certain object in order to change its form (Serb.
> UDARATI). I must admit, such a comparison seems frivolous, at least at
> first sight.
It seems possible the serbian word has an origin in the act of
quenching in water.
> Nevertheless, let us now mention the Serbian word POTERATI (from the
> basis BEL-HOR) POHARATI (plunder), POGURATI (push forward), POKRET
> (movement), POĆERATI => POTERATI (to hunt, chase, drive, persuit; the
> role of 'pater' or 'father' was to lead his tribe and keep the order
> inside his home);
Don't think so.
> and from the BEL-GON basis POBUDITI (to irritate,
> vex), POVODITI (follow something or someone), POVESTI (lead), VOĐA
> (leader).
Definitely off-track here.
Clear cognate exists elsewhere in IE.
> Obviously, the Serbian VODA and the English WATER did not come from the
> same source (WATER belongs to BEL-HOR basis while VODA sprung from the
> BEL-GON well).
Lose the 'Bel-Hor' stuff... it is leading you into wilderness.
> Even if we use the augmentative of VODA (VODURINA) the
> stem o these two words is different. In Serbian the words BUĐENJE
> (waking up), VIĐENJE (seeing) and VOĐENJE (leading) were derived from
> the ancient BEL-GON basis (Serb. POGON drive, propulsion).
You have made five errors here.
> In fact,
> BELI DAN (white day, BEL-GON, BALKAN) is the "secret" instigator of the
> earthly movement and VODA (VODENO aqueous, aquatic) is the most
> prominent movable "medium", capable of being moved or transferred from
> one place to another (Serb. BEL-GON => POGON propulsion => POĆI go).
> The BUĐENJE (waking) is the first impulse (POGON) for the living
> creatures on earth when the BELI DAN (white day, morning) dispersed the
> dense darkness of the night. Of course, it is unnecessary to say that
> after BUĐENJE (waking) the VIĐENJE (seeing) steps on the scene.
And now you verge into imaginary realms..
> Let us go back to the WATER (BEL-HOR) and try to see the eventual
> relation among WATER, PATER, FATHER, the Serbian POTERA (pursuit,
> chase) and UDAR (strike, hit). Between the Serbian words POTERATI
> (persuit) and UDAR (strike) we shall find the word UTERATI (drive into,
> hunt down) and the logical consequence is: there is nothing you can
> drive into (or hunt down) without the use of force - in other words
> without striking (Serb. UDAR)! In Serbian, the words BODAR (vigorous,
> sprightly, brisk, healthy), VEDAR (sunny, vivacious, fair, bright,
> serene, shiny) and JEDAR (sturdy, healthy) appeared to be the branches
> of the same stem (BEL-HOR). In order to resolve this enigma we are
> going to invite the Serbian word VETAR (sprung from the same source as
> the English WATER) or more better, its iekavian variant VJETAR.
No, you are too uncritical.
> Bingo! Now it becomes clear that sailing is impossible without the wind
> (Serbian VJETAR) and without the sail (JEDRO); we see that JEDRENJE
> (sailing) is nothing else but VJETRENJE (airing or the use of the
> wind-power for the purpose of propulsion).
Probably correct.
lora...@cs.com
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> AUSANCALIO, non-idetified place in Liburnia. Ausankalei (Ptolem. II
> 16,6. TP Miller Ir col. 462-471.)
> Etymology: To my view this place name could be segmented as aus-,
> colored form of the root *H2eus- 'draw water' and suffixed plural
> form -ank-al-iyo 'to bend' of the root *onk- 'to bend'.
> Testimony that root *aus- is linked with water are the river names
> Ausentus flument (Etruria), Ausentum lumen (Kalabri), Auser lumen,
> Ausoba flumen etc. With dialectal form ous- it appears in many
> toponyms, like Celadussae, Melitoussa (Polyb. 13,10,9; Steph. s.v.). It
> appears in compound ushuj 'lader' from *us-ud-n-yo and ushujzë
> 'leech' < *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer' and in
> many place names abundant in water sources: Rad-usha, Mir-usha,
> Kr-usha, Vell-usha etc. About the presence of the words of same
> semantic fields in river names it is worth to be seen our analysis of
> hydronyms and toponyms: Valb-ona (*wel- 'to turn', NE well) from
> o-grade bilabial extended form *wolb-, Shkumbini flumen (< *(s)kemp-
> 'to bend'), Klina flumen (*k'lei- 'to bend') from suffixed
> zero-grade form *k'li-na: etc.
Not sure about the aus-water relationship, but consider 'forge' for
'......' kalei'
lora...@cs.com
H needed to look no futher than 'en' from an original *enains meaning
'shady' or 'shadowed'.
Same with the town "AENONA/ Enona (Rav. IV 22; V"
> > Starting from phonetic form *ain- I assume that its proto-form should
> > be *oi-no- 'one, unique' with regular outcome of PIE *oi > PAlb
> > ai > e, typical as a first element of compound words (cf. Cletic
> > Oen-gus).
Correct assumption... as suffixes at least.
> > ADRA, city in Liburnia (Ptolem. II 16,6), variant name Hadre (TP Millr.
> > IR, col. 462-471), Adrise (Rav. IV 16.).
> > Etymology: From suffixed form *ad-ra with variant form odra 'water'
> > in Messapian. This interchange a < > o, to my view, is characteristic
> > in many Liburnian place names or toponyms: Aenona, but Oenus flumen;
> > Aplus, but Oplus as well (see later Ort-opla, Oplica); Absorus, but
> > also Obsora; Art-a, but also Ort (see Ort-opla. Ort-ona, Ort-esi);
> > Alvona/Ablona, but as well Oblona.
>
> I am skeptical about this apparently random interchange of /a/ and /o/.
You shouldn't be.
> In Messapic <odra> the /o/ reflects *u from the zero-grade of PIE
> *wed-. The other examples you give have /o/ in initial position before
> a consonantal cluster, and I wonder whether they might be similarly
> explained from zero-grades of roots in *w-. As a guess, perhaps the
> names in Ort- are based on *wert- 'to turn', in the sense 'place where
> one turns (aside)' (cf. Lat. <deversorium> 'inn, lodging,
> resting-place').
And you would be wrong. 'Udra' needs no reflection - though sometimes
it can have one.
It is a term related to 'water'.
> Adra/Hadre/Adrise in Liburnia probably has the same Illyrian root as
> Adria/Hadria and Atria in NE Italy (for local dialectal devoicing cf.
> Padua/Patavium, etc.), cognate with *Adra > Atter(see), Atter(gau),
> Adrana > Eder, etc., meaning 'watercourse' but not related to PIE *wed-.
Well.. you've got that correct.
lora...@cs.com
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> According to H. Krahe all these place names are derived from Adranos,
> armed god with nature of Ares and Hephestos. His cult was probably
> introduced into Sicily by Phoenicians, so they have all teophoric
> characteristics, that seems reasonable, but according to Pokorny they
> are all derived from *ad(u)- 'water current'.
Pokorny is (in this rare instance) more correct than Krahe.
Dusan Vukotic
lora...@cs.com wrote:
Illyrian root?
Could anyone exlain what this syntagm means?
What about Martian root? It would be more convincing than Illyrian.
Boost your imagination and...
Welcome to Alice's Wonderland!
DV
lora...@cs.com
PS.
I forgot to mention the obvious; 'aus' could simply be 'east'.. giving
an original town meaning of 'East Forge'
'Water Drawing Town / Well Town' is also possible because you are
correct in your *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer' assumption.
(but is less likely - I think - simply because the town is said to have
been situated on a stream - and wells would have been less remarkable)
.
Dusan Vukotic
Liburnia in ancient times (11th to 1st century BC) was the alleged land
of the Liburnians, a region along the northeastern Adriatic coast. Of
course, there is no serious scientist in the world who would be able to
explain did the Liburnian exist or not as a tribal name in Balkan. The
fact is that we today have the toponyms in the Balkan which confirm
that Liburnia's name was present along the whole Adriatic coast as well
as it was present in the far interior of the Balkan Peninsula.
The name Labrani (or Liburni) was not limited to the Balkan area and
here we can adduce the name of the city Livorno, situated on the
Tyrrhenian Sea on the western edge of Tuscany, Italy. The cenral point
of the supposed Liburnian land was the town Lovran (Italian Laurana) -
located on the eastern coast of Istria, in the Bay of Kvarner. It would
be interesting to mention another town, this time in the northern part
of Serbia, close to the Romanian border, with the name Alibunar.
According to the local legend, Alibunar was named after Ali-paša
(Ali-pasha), who had a cattle and a well at this place (Kruševo
monument 1713). Nevertheless, the Serbian word 'bunar' has been derived
from the older word 'oblivanje' (suffuse), over 'livanje' and
'livarenje' (pooring in; Leva Reka = Left River; Serbian surname
Ljevar, Levar); i.e. from LIBANJE and LIBARENJE - liburn => buran =>
bunar (Ger. Brunnen); hence the French 'lavoir' (wash basin, Serb.
lavor), Latin 'labrum' (lip, edge, basin).
At this place, it is necessary to explain where (and how) the Latin
words 'labrum' and 'labium' appeared form. We shall see that there is
an unusual inter-relation among the Latin 'labium' (lip), German
'Liebe', English 'love' and the Serbian verb 'ljubiti' (kiss), 'ljubav'
(love). They are very close to each other not only phonetically but
also semantically and logically. There is a litlle chance to understand
the history of the words 'love' and 'lip' (labium, Serb. ljubim = I
love) if the one of the Slavic languages (the Serbian is the best
because of its "shepherd" structure) is not taken in serious
consideration.
Namely, in order to comprehend this "fervent love-affair" we must go
back to the primordial flash of the flaming sun and to the coast of the
eternal River, which waves passionately suffuse (Serb. oblivati,
oblivanje; obliva) the both River's coasts. The Latin 'libatio' is the
word coming from the same source as the Serbian 'livati / levati' (to
pour... beverage etc.). The hand that holds the empty glass that nedeed
to be filled up (Serb. liti, levati), has been named 'left' (Serb.
leva).
When the boy kisses the girl he suffuses (Serb. obliva) the both girl's
lips in the same way as the river suffuses the both of its coasts
(Serb. obala). It is the reason why the Serbian verbs 'oblivati
(suffuse, splash)' and 'obljubiti' (kiss, intercourse) have te same
reduplicated BEL form (sun god BEL, Serbian OBLO round as the sun,
OBALA coast; the round form of the riverbank; sloping land - especially
the slope beside a body of water).
Now, when we have resolved our "no LOVE LEFT" problem we are ready to
visite the river Lab (in the south of Serbia), according to wich some
ancient tribe named themselves LABANI (Labeati on the teritory of
todays Republic of Monte Negro, from Skadar to Podgorica).As we can see
from the above explnation, Lab is a clear-cut Serbian name of river and
it means 'oblivati' (suffuse), 'livati' (pour), 'ljubiti' (kiss),
'plaviti' (flood) and 'obljuba' (water-coast intercourse).
Additionally, there is the river with the same name as the Serbian LAB
in the north of Germany, the slavic LABA (German Elbe; the same
metathesis as LABANI => ALBANI). Is there anything else we would have
needed as a final proof that so called Illyrian language never existed?
The same is with the Albanian nation (Sqiptar), which adopted the Roman
calque of the Serbian regional name Labani.
At the end, let us be reminded of the Serbian/Slavic personal names
like Lovro, Lovrenović, Lavrnić, Lubarda, Ljubović, Ljubo, Ljuban,
Labus, Labud and the place names Ljubovo, Lapovo, LJUBLJANA, LIPLJAN
(the town in Kosovo, Serbia; the same BEL-BEL basis as Ljubljana; Serb.
ljubljenje kissing; OBLJUBITI => POLJUBITI kiss). LJIPLJAN is the one
of the numberless evidences that the Serbian toponymic names in Balkan
were distorted by Romans – in the case of Lipljan, Ulpiana is a
deformed name of the Serbian Lipljan).
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
> treated generally as counterpart of place name Flanona (Plomin). Its
> relics is supposed to be found in Biograd na Moru in Croatia. Slavic
> form Plomin speaks of betacism, very characteristic for South-Slavic
> languages.
> Etymology: With suffix -ona it belongs to wide group of Illyrian
> place names. If we take as a calque Croatian form Biograd na Moru, then
> its etymology could be explained from active participle form *bhle-nt-,
> variant form of PIE *bhel- 'shine, white'. As I have proved many
> time, group(s) *-en(t)/-em(t) have yielded usually in Albanian
> -an(d)/-am. For reduction -nt- > -nd- > -n- see Alb anë 'end,
> side' < *H2ent-eH2. So, phonetically speaking, even the variant form
> Blandona was much later attested seems to be much older form then
> Blanona. (Pokorny 1. bhel- 118.)
JADERA (Plin. NH III 21, 22, 26. Mela II 3,57. Ptolem. II 16,2. TP
Miller IR col. 474-476.), Jaderdtina (Veg. V 3.), Iader/Iadera (Rav. IV
16; V 14.). Today city Zadar in Croatina and Zara in Albanian due to
VDV=V (D 'voiced stop').
Etymology: According to V. Georgiev this place vend is derived from
*iudh-ro, as a prefixed o-grade form of the root *ioudh- 'to move
swiftly, fight', but other possibility is that this toponym could be
derived from suffixed form *ad-ro of the root *ad(u)- in a language in
which */a/ is diphthongized in /ia/, language this akin to Daco-Myzian.
Our opinion is that place name Jadera should be segmented as ja-der-a,
where first member ja- is derived from zero-grade *sm.- of the root
*sem- 'one, unique' (for same semantic development see above
Aen-ona), attested as well in tribes name: Japodes, Japyges, till the
second member -der is derived form suffixed zero-grade form of
*udo:r- of the root *wed- 'water, wet' (cf. Greek. gr. hudo:r
'water'< *ud-o:r) with aphaeresis of first unstressed syllable and
regular outcome of *o: > e in Proto-Albanian, like *o >a as well in
Illyrian and Proto-Albanian. Prefixed zero-grade form *H1en- + sm
have yielded Alb nja 'some'(cf. NE. some < *sm.-mo).
Second member dytë -der is attested in place names Be-der-iana,
Ab-der-a, An-der-va (Nikshiqi), but in Slavicized form due to a > o in
microtponym Pos-der-ka, a district that lays immediately after the
river Prishtina, today street "Llapi".
About place name Bederiana, Prokopious of Cesarea in "De Aedeficis"
(IV 17) wrote: "Among the Dardanians of Europe who live beyond the
boundaries of the Epidmanians, close to the fortress which is called
Bederiana, there was a hamlet named Taurisium, whence sprang the
Emperor Justinian, the founder of the civilised world.4 18 He therefore
built a wall of small compass about this place in the form of a square,
placing a tower at each corner, and caused it to be called, as it
actually is, Tetrapyrgia.5 19 And close by this place he built a very
notable city which he named Justiniana Prima6 (this means "first" in
the Latin tongue), thus paying a debt of gratitude to the home that
fostered him. 20 Yet all Romans should have shared this debt among
themselves, for this land nourished a common saviour for all of them.
21 In that place also he constructed an aqueduct and so caused the city
to be abundantly supplied with ever-running water."
So, form Be-der-iana has the meaning 'without water'
*b(h)e-l/-gh'- 'without': OPruss bhe 'pa', Lit be 'pa',
OCS be(z)- 'pa' (Pokorny b(h)el and b(h)eg'h 112.).
This our opinion was accepted by Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (message
28107) in Cybalist: "Now this example is very different. If the
morpheme der- is Illyrian, and means water, and derives from *wodó:r
(*udó:r), then that might be significant."
lora...@cs.com
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> Testimony that root *aus- is linked with water are the river names
> Ausentus flument (Etruria), Ausentum lumen (Kalabri), Auser lumen,
> Ausoba flumen etc. With dialectal form ous- it appears in many
> toponyms, like Celadussae, Melitoussa (Polyb. 13,10,9; Steph. s.v.). It
> appears in compound ushuj 'lader' from *us-ud-n-yo and ushujzë
> 'leech' < *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer' and in
> many place names abundant in water sources: Rad-usha, Mir-usha,
> Kr-usha, Vell-usha etc. About the presence of the words of same
> semantic fields in river names it is worth to be seen our analysis of
> hydronyms and toponyms: Valb-ona (*wel- 'to turn', NE well) from
> o-grade bilabial extended form *wolb-, Shkumbini flumen (< *(s)kemp-
> 'to bend'), Klina flumen (*k'lei- 'to bend') from suffixed
> zero-grade form *k'li-na: etc.
Your < *us- + *ud-n-ya:, litteraly 'water drawer' > is very interesting
to me.
If you have the time could you give me the source of this
reconstruction?
Is it yours, or have you discovered it elsewhere?
Abdullah Konushevci
Seems to be mine, for Meyer have thinked that it is from Lat.
sanguisuga and reconstruct Rom. supposed form *sanguisungia (Orel AED,
pp. 491.).
Dusan Vukotic
1. What's 'ushuj' got to do with water? Lard is semisolid substance...?
2. The Albanian 'shushunjë' (leech) is a clear-cut borrowing from the
Latin 'sanguisungia' (bloodsucker). Or is it not?
3. Water is 'ujë' in Albanian? The verb 'ujit' means irrigate, water,
dabble... Could it not be just a simple omission of the sound 'p' at
the beginning of the Serbian 'pojiti' (drink; pijenje drinking, pijem
=> I drink, pijesh => you are drinking; pije => he drinks); compare
Albanian 'pi' / 'pijë' ( drink)?
4. Would you be so kind and tell us what the Albanian 'pi ujë' means?
5. What about the possibility that the Sqiptars have simply divided the
Serbian word 'pijenje' (pojenje drinking) to have made their words PI
(drink) + UJE (water).
6. Your 'aus wasser' (Serb. uzvodno - izvodno) acrobatic is amasing,
but it hardly could be taken as a statement of fact. Could you explain
more precisely the sound changes in your supposed transformation of
*us- + *ud-n-ya (water drawer) into the bloodsucking 'ushujze'?
7. Have you ever been thinking that your 'ushujzë' is just a garbled
form of 'shushunjë'? The final -ungia in the Latin 'sanguisungia'
could be equaly changed in -unje as well as it could become -ujze. Am I
right?
8. Do you not know that Radusha, Mirusha, Krusha*, Vellusha are the
original Serbian names (augmentative words: Mira => Mirusha, Rada =>
Radusha, Vela => Velusha)?
*The noun 'krusha' has two possible meanings in Serbian: one is
'KRUSHKA' (pear) and the other one is KRUH (bread), KRUSHNE MRVE (bread
crumbs); both Serbian words were named in accordance with their round
form (Serb. KRUG circle; VELIKA KRUSHA village in Kosovo).
Regards,
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci
If you would be more litterate in linguistics, you would know that Alb
dhjamë 'fat' and Greek demos are derived from PIE *da:- 'to flow;
river', cf. Celt Da:nuvius, today Serbian Danub. (Pokorny da:-175).
>
> 2. The Albanian 'shushunjë' (leech) is a clear-cut borrowing from the
> Latin 'sanguisungia' (bloodsucker). Or is it not?
It is simply a prefixed variant of Alb ushunjëz 'leech'
>
> 3. Water is 'ujë' in Albanian? The verb 'ujit' means irrigate, water,
> dabble... Could it not be just a simple omission of the sound 'p' at
> the beginning of the Serbian 'pojiti' (drink; pijenje drinking, pijem
> => I drink, pijesh => you are drinking; pije => he drinks); compare
> Albanian 'pi' / 'pijë' ( drink)?
Yes, it could be in yours imaginary world, where the Serbian language
is a common source of all languages!
> 4. Would you be so kind and tell us what the Albanian 'pi ujë' means?
"I drink water' as well as 'Drink water!'
> 5. What about the possibility that the Sqiptars have simply divided the
> Serbian word 'pijenje' (pojenje drinking) to have made their words PI
> (drink) + UJE (water).
See answer under 3.
> 6. Your 'aus wasser' (Serb. uzvodno - izvodno) acrobatic is amasing,
> but it hardly could be taken as a statement of fact. Could you explain
> more precisely the sound changes in your supposed transformation of
> *us- + *ud-n-ya (water drawer) into the bloodsucking 'ushujze'?
Again, if you would be more litterate in linguistics, you would know
that *us- is a zero-grade of *aus- and *ud-n-ya: is suffixed zero-grade
form of *wed- 'water; wet'.
>
> 7. Have you ever been thinking that your 'ushujzë' is just a garbled
> form of 'shushunjë'? The final -ungia in the Latin 'sanguisungia'
> could be equaly changed in -unje as well as it could become -ujze. Am I
> right?
Why? Just why you like it?!
> 8. Do you not know that Radusha, Mirusha, Krusha*, Vellusha are the
> original Serbian names (augmentative words: Mira => Mirusha, Rada =>
> Radusha, Vela => Velusha)?
About derivative of the root *ered- see Albanian Inherited Lexicon by
Abdullah Konushevci in PIEML:
*ered- ‘to flow, dampness’, PIE *H1red-. 1a. Alb. <rrjedh> ‘to
flow’, aor. <rrodha>; b. Deverbative noun <rrjedhë> ‘flow’
probably from prefixed form *H2ew- + *red-o (wr > Alb. /rr/, *e > ie >
je and *d /dh / V_V). 2. O-grade form is attested in many place and
river names: Rad-ika (river in Macedonia), Rad-usha ‘village in
Macedonia’, Rad-on-ik ‘lake’ (near city of Gjakova), Rad-avc
‘village’ (near city of Peja), Rad-ish-eva (village in Drenica),
Rad-onja ‘village in Albania’, Rad-o-mia 'village in Albania', as
well as Rad-enska and Rad-enci in Slovenia (cf. Celt.-Ligur. River name
Rodanos; Rednitz from *Radontia). (Pokorny ered- 334.)
Dusan Vukotic
1. What's 'ushuj' got to do with water? Lard is semisolid substance...?
> If you would be more litterate in linguistics, you would know that Alb
> dhjamë 'fat' and Greek demos are derived from PIE *da:- 'to flow;
> river', cf. Celt Da:nuvius, today Serbian Danub. (Pokorny da:-175).
If you have been more careful, you would have seen that Pokorny wrote,
"und vermutlich (probably!) gr. δημοσ" (Pokorny da:-175).
Therefore, please, I need no one (especially not you) to teach me what
real illiteracy looks like.
What is the meaning of the Serbian words ’tok’ and ’tečenje’
(č = ch), ’utoka’ and ‘pri-toka’. Let mi remind you:
TOK = FLOWING,
TEĆI = TO FLOW,
UTOKA (PRITOKA) = CONFLUENT,
POTOK = BROOK, RIVER.
The source of these words is the secondary DA-GNA basis, the same one
that yields the German ‘Tag’ and the Serbian ‘dan’ (day) and
many other IE words, which were connected to any kind of movement.
Every one can see that your comparison of ‘dhjamë’ and ‘demos’
looks terrible inconvincible and without any serious chance of being
accepted as a fact.
> > 2. The Albanian 'shushunjë' (leech) is a clear-cut borrowing from the
> > Latin 'sanguisungia' (bloodsucker). Or is it not?
> It is simply a prefixed variant of Alb ushunjëz 'leech'
Albanian 'shushunjë', Serbian ‘sisanje’, English ‘sucking’,
German ‘saugen’;
See this!
Italian (Sicily) sunza ‘pork fat, lard’ (medieval Latin sungia) =>
Albanian 'ushuj' (lard)
Italian sanguisuga (leech) => Abanian 'shushunjë' => Albanian
‘ushunjëz’ (leech)!
Whom do you want to fool here?; me, this forum, complete intelligent
world?
> > 3. Water is 'ujë' in Albanian? The verb 'ujit' means irrigate, water,
> > dabble... Could it not be just a simple omission of the sound 'p' at
> > the beginning of the Serbian 'pojiti' (drink; pijenje drinking, pijem
> > => I drink, pijesh => you are drinking; pije => he drinks); compare
> > Albanian 'pi' / 'pijë' ( drink)?
>
> Yes, it could be in yours imaginary world, where the Serbian language
> is a common source of all languages!
Serbian PIJEM (I drink), PIJE (he drinks), Albanian PI UJE (I drink
water)?!!
> > 4. Would you be so kind and tell us what the Albanian 'pi ujë' means?
>
> "I drink water' as well as 'Drink water!'
>
> > 5. What about the possibility that the Sqiptars have simply divided the
> > Serbian word 'pijenje' (pojenje drinking) to have made their words PI
> > (drink) + UJE (water).
>
> See answer under 3.
>
> > 6. Your 'aus wasser' (Serb. uzvodno - izvodno) acrobatic is amasing,
> > but it hardly could be taken as a statement of fact. Could you explain
> > more precisely the sound changes in your supposed transformation of
> > *us- + *ud-n-ya (water drawer) into the bloodsucking 'ushujze'?
>
> Again, if you would be more litterate in linguistics, you would know
> that *us- is a zero-grade of *aus- and *ud-n-ya: is suffixed zero-grade
> form of *wed- 'water; wet'.
Instead of trying to teach me a lesson, I think you had better answer
the above question. Of course, if you can answer it at all.
> > 7. Have you ever been thinking that your 'ushujzë' is just a garbled
> > form of 'shushunjë'? The final -ungia in the Latin 'sanguisungia'
> > could be equaly changed in -unje as well as it could become -ujze. Am I
> > right?
>
> Why? Just why you like it?!
>
> > 8. Do you not know that Radusha, Mirusha, Krusha*, Vellusha are the
> > original Serbian names (augmentative words: Mira => Mirusha, Rada =>
> > Radusha, Vela => Velusha)?
>
> About derivative of the root *ered- see Albanian Inherited Lexicon by
> Abdullah Konushevci in PIEML:
> *ered- ‘to flow, dampness’, PIE *H1red-. 1a. Alb. <rrjedh> ‘to
> flow’, aor. <rrodha>; b. Deverbative noun <rrjedhë> ‘flow’
> probably from prefixed form *H2ew- + *red-o (wr > Alb. /rr/, *e > ie >
> je and *d /dh / V_V). 2. O-grade form is attested in many place and
> river names: Rad-ika (river in Macedonia), Rad-usha ‘village in
> Macedonia’, Rad-on-ik ‘lake’ (near city of Gjakova), Rad-avc
> ‘village’ (near city of Peja), Rad-ish-eva (village in Drenica),
> Rad-onja ‘village in Albania’, Rad-o-mia 'village in Albania', as
> well as Rad-enska and Rad-enci in Slovenia (cf. Celt.-Ligur. River name
> Rodanos; Rednitz from *Radontia). (Pokorny ered- 334.)
You must be joking here! Is there any Albanian called Radosh, Radenko,
Radomir, Ratko, Radovan, Radan, Rodoljub, and do the Sqiptars have the
surnames Radonjić, Radić, Ratković, Radović, Rudić, Radoshević!
Do not be silly! The Albanian ‘rrjedhë’ is just a sub variant of
the Serbian ‘rijeka / reka’; the Latin ‘irrigo’, ‘irrigare’
(thumb the Albanian dictionary: rrëke flow!). Abanian ‘river’
(lumë) is a clear-cut borrowing from the Latin ‘flumen’ (Serb.
plima tide).
Abdullah Konushevci
> > About derivative of the root *ered- see Albanian Inherited Lexicon by
> > Abdullah Konushevci in PIEML:
> > *ered- ‘to flow, dampness’, PIE *H1red-. 1a. Alb. <rrjedh> ‘to
> > flow’, aor. <rrodha>; b. Deverbative noun <rrjedhë> ‘flow’
> > probably from prefixed form *H2ew- + *red-o (wr > Alb. /rr/, *e > ie >
> > je and *d /dh / V_V). 2. O-grade form is attested in many place and
> > river names: Rad-ika (river in Macedonia), Rad-usha ‘village in
> > Macedonia’, Rad-on-ik ‘lake’ (near city of Gjakova), Rad-avc
> > ‘village’ (near city of Peja), Rad-ish-eva (village in Drenica),
> > Rad-onja ‘village in Albania’, Rad-o-mia 'village in Albania', as
> > well as Rad-enska and Rad-enci in Slovenia (cf. Celt.-Ligur. River name
> > Rodanos; Rednitz from *Radontia). (Pokorny ered- 334.)
>
> You must be joking here! Is there any Albanian called Radosh, Radenko,
> Radomir, Ratko, Radovan, Radan, Rodoljub, and do the Sqiptars have the
> surnames Radonjić, Radić, Ratković, Radović, Rudić, Radoshević!
> Do not be silly! The Albanian ‘rrjedhë’ is just a sub variant of
> the Serbian ‘rijeka / reka’; the Latin ‘irrigo’, ‘irrigare’
> (thumb the Albanian dictionary: rrëke flow!). Abanian ‘river’
> (lumë) is a clear-cut borrowing from the Latin ‘flumen’ (Serb.
> plima tide).
And what have to do personal names and surnames with river names or
places characterized by brooks, rivers and so on.
And stop offending me using constantly Sqiptars, for I know as well
what does it means Shkja < sclavus, Shkavell etc., but I have never
used them.
And, please, stop boring me with so much nonsenses, for I will never
more reply on your postings.
Dusan Vukotic
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
When you panic, you hyperventilate and it makes you featherbrained.
Sqiperia - the land of eagles. Am I not allowed to call you in the same
way as you call yourself? Are you ashamed of your own national name?
You prefer more the foreign name - Albania - than your native
SHQIPERIA? If you did not know, Republic of Albania is in fact
REPUBLIKA E SHQIPERISE. See for yourself: http://www.president.al/
I am trying to imagine one Hollander being mad because someone called
him Dutchman or Netherlander; or much better, one German who is
outraged to here his native name - Deutcher.
I know you are terrified, because your Sqiptar-Illyrian theory is
falling apart like dreams in a shallow sleep.
DV
Dusan Vukotic
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
Yes, they do, because Radusha, Mirusha and Vellusha were named in
concordance with the augmented Serbian female names Rada => Radusha,
Mira => Mirusha, Vela, Velika => Velusha.
Similar naming of the Serbian places in a possessive form: Radojevo,
Radinci, Mirjevo (suberb of Belgrad), Velanovac, Velinovo (village in
Bulgaria).
All the above names have neither connection with water, nor rivers nor
brooks.
Mira - from MIR (peace), Rada - from RAD (work) and Vela, Velika -
VELIK (big).
Do you know according to which historical person the town UROSHEVAC in
Kosovo was named?
DV
ps
I did not expect an onomastics expert to ask such a naive question -;)
Dusan Vukotic
I am surprised that no one on this list reacts on Abdullah's
nonsensical posts. Some of the members of this forum even supported the
Sqiptar-Illyrian babbling by saying that "Abdulah argues carefully" and
"on the basis of a linguistic knowledge". Let us than analyze such an
unusual "lingua knowledge".
1. Abdulah distorted the truth when alleging that "Miguel Carrasquer
Vidal accepted his view about morpheme der-", although everyone can
clearly see that Carrasqer's "acceptance" had been expressed
conditionally. (Miguel told: If the morpheme der- is Illyrian... then
that might be significant).
2) What an impertinence! Abdulah writes that DER is the Illyrain word
derived from the ancient *wodó:r. How? Simply, by apheresis! What if I
said the English 'chat' had been derived from the Serbian 'pri-chati'
(talk)? I only need to find my "WITHAL" who would admit that my
'discovery' MIGHT BE SIGNIFICANT.
The truth is that the great number of Albanian words has been developed
trough aphaeresis. For instance, who would have ever thought that the
Albanian MBLEDH has been derived from the nasalized Italian gruppo
(Serbian grupa group, krupan big)? You would be able to grasp what
really happened to the Albanian word MBLEDH if you looked at the other
Albanian word – GRUMBULLOJ with the same meaning as ‘mbledh’ (to
group, assemble).
3) I have already been talking about the relations among the words with
the same basis and different meanings as 'water', 'fetter' and
'father'. In addition, we can adduce here the Greek πατέρας
(father), πατερίτσα (crutch), πατρικός (paternal,
fatherly) and the Serbian verb 'poterati' (pursuit, chase, drive),
'patarica' (stick, wooden rod), 'postarati se' (look after), 'starac'
(old men; once this world was used in sense of father). Now, we should
be reminded at this point that scepter (baton) symbolized the
‘patarica’ (Greek σκήπτρον club, cudgel) in the hand of the
Patriarch. In fact, Greek ‘skeptron’ is a compound word (ske +
patron) where the ‘ske-‘ has the meaning of a certain movement,
similar to the Serbian ‘iskati’ (ask), ‘izgoniti” (expel,
eject, exo-, out-, aus-, iz-), sterati (force into; with the older
Serbian form ‘šćerati’ (Serb. starati look after, šćer, ćerka
daughter), which is the cognate of the Latin scio, scire). Of course,
there are other Serbian words as ‘skupiti’ (amass, group, scoop)
and ‘ščepati’ (grab, hold firmly) that belongs to the words with
the same basis as the Greek ‘skeptro/n’. Even the name of
Shqiptars, the one Abdulah is ashamed of, fits well in the above
analyses.
Coming soon, stay tuned!
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
KODRJANA, nomen fluminis, a tributary of Kozica-Arbec (ARCHAIC PLACE
NAMES IN SLOVENIA: PRE-INDO-EUROPEAN, INDO-EUROPEAN (ILLYRIAN, CELTIC,
THRACIAN), EARLY ROMANCE by Sorin Paliga), Illyrians KODRIONI (Liv.
XXXI 27,4), Illyrian city in the province of Dasaretia) are from
morpheme kodr- 'hill, forest': Alb kodra 'hill', Rom codru 'forested
hill', a derivative of PIE root *ka:dh- 'to shelter, protect', suffixed
in -ro/-reH2 due to regular *a: > o outcome in PAlb. Same outcome we
found as well in place name Lop-si-ca from PAlb appellative lopë 'cow'
from *leH2:p- (Pokorny la:p- 654.): Latv luops 'cattle' etc. So, in
both cases we have PIE *a: > Ill/PAlb /o/.
Appellative lopë 'cow' is present also in Albanian toponymy: Lopez and
as commemorative surname Lopez in Arberesh idiom. It is also present in
Latin form Vak-s-inca, Vakarica, but also in betacized Slavic form
Baks, all from Vulgar Latin vacca 'id.'. This appellative could be
found also in Slavic place names: Kravari, Kravarica etc.
Colin Fine
>
> 3. Water is 'ujë' in Albanian? The verb 'ujit' means irrigate, water,
> dabble... Could it not be just a simple omission of the sound 'p' at
> the beginning of the Serbian 'pojiti' (drink; pijenje drinking, pijem
> => I drink, pijesh => you are drinking; pije => he drinks); compare
> Albanian 'pi' / 'pijë' ( drink)?
>
> 4. Would you be so kind and tell us what the Albanian 'pi ujë' means?
Aha! So the Serbian word is borrowed from Albanian. I see!.
Colin
Dusan Vukotic
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
4) The name Shqiptar and the native name of Albania (Shqipëri) are
phonetically very close to the name of the village Škabrnja (in
Dalmatia, Croatia). It seems logical that Škabrnja yielded its name
(by metathesis from ‘škrape’ rough terrain; from Serb. grba hump,
izgrebati scrape, škrabanje scribble). It is known that Škabrnja bore
(in the medieval times) the name Kamenjani (Serb. kamen stone); i.e. it
was named according to its stony ground (Serb. kamenit stony) or
according to the Serbian verb ‘grbav/ hrapav’ (scabrous, raucous,
rugged, hoarse; Latin scaber rough, scaly). As we can see, the similar
word history could be applied to the Croatian capital Zagreb (Ital.
Zagabria).
Let us now compare all the above words with the fish Scorpaena scrofa
(Serb. škrpina/škarpa; scorpion or rock fishes); scorpion and škarpa
(scorpion fish) are named like that in accordance with their scabrous
back.
Obviously, the indigenous name of Albania - Shqipëri – has been
named after the Italian SCABRO (harsh, rough, raucous, throaty,
hoarse, raw; scabrosita ruggedness, roughness), which from its side
has been sound transposed Serbian word ‘zagrebati’ (scrape; Serb.
škrape rocky ground, škrabanje scribble, zgrbiti hump, hunch, arch
one's back). It is a well-known fact that Albania is a rocky land,
rough and hardly approachable. Therefore, it becomes clear that first
Albanian settlers (brought to the Serbian land from Sicily in the 11th
century during the George Maniaces rebellion against Byzantium; read
Michael Attaliates “History”, pp. 9-20, written in 1079-1080),
named their new country Škrabina or Škabrina.
After all, no one need to contemplate much about the history of the
native Albanian name (Shqipëri); it would be enough if we compared
above mentioned Italian SCABROSITA (ruggedness, roughness) with the
today’s name of Albania - Republika e SHQIPERISE!
At the end, let us add a few extra explanations in order to understand
the other known etymologies of the name Shqipëri.
The most used one is the etymology, which refers to the Albanian word
‘eagle’ (shqiponjë eagle; hence Shqiperia – alleged Land of
Eagles). In this case, we need to know that eagle is a predator
(vulture) and in Serbian it is GRABLJIVICA (predatory, rapacious bird;
Serbian ‘zgrabiti’ grab). The Albanian noun shqiponjë, as we can
see, is missing the sound ‘r’, the one that is present in the name
of Shqiperia. The similar process of the sound ‘r’ omission can be
seen in the Latin word ‘scabies’ (minge, the itch; Ital. scabbia)
that has evidently been derived from SCRAB (Eng. scrape, Serb. ZGRABITI
grab, ZAGREBATI scratch, scrape.
The other etymology is connected with the Albanian word ‘shqiptoj’
(enounce, pronounce, enunciate, say, utter, mouth). With a significant
probability we can conclude that the Albanian ‘shqiptoj’ appeared
from the basis SCRIBO (Serb. škrabati) with the elision of the sound
‘r’. An additional solution may be the Serbian word
‘izgovaranje’ (betacism of IZGOBARANJE pronunciation; govorenje =>
zborenje speech), because this word has the same phonetic structure as
the above mentioned Škabrnja, Italian Zagabria (izgovor, zagovarati,
sagovornik interlocutor), although there was no metathesis as in case
of the Italian words Zagabria and scabro. Actually, the Serbian
IZGOVARANJE is a compound word IZGON (exodus, ostracism, dislodge,
expel, eject, evict) + PRIČANJE (preach); i. e. ZNANJE (knowledge) +
PRIDIKA (homily, preachment), but this PREACH-CHAT (Serbian PRIČATI
speak) will be on the "chatting agenda" some other time.
DV
Dusan Vukotic
Colin Fine wrote:
You must be the Pope PIUS! ;-)
DV
Dusan Vukotic
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
PIOUS of course!
Do you drink during ceremony?
We do a lot of drinking in Serbia (Serb. PIJE SE the "drinkig time")
DV
Dusan Vukotic
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
Not water, of course, but the strongest alcoholic beverages!
DV
Dusan Vukotic
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
In one of my earlier posts
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/browse_frm/thread/cddac41269a457d1
I mentioned the Albanian word mbresë (impression, scar) and I did
expect that someone would notice that this word was a cognate of the
Latin ‘imprimo, imprimere, impressi’ (impress, Serbian obrezati,
porezati cut). The Latin ‘presso’ is equal to the Serbian
‘prezanje’ (preassure) and the named nasalized form of the Serbian
‘obrez - oMbrez’ (circumcision, cut; Latin ‘abrasio’) seem to
be the basis for the development of the Latin ‘impressi’ as well as
the Albanian ’mbresë’
There are other Albanian words that are derived directly from the
Serbian as ‘mpreh’ (whet, sharpen; Serbian ‘brusiti’) and
‘mbreh’ (harness, yoke, put by force; Serb. upregnuti, uprego
harness; nasalized Serb. uMprego => Alb. mbreh).
Sometimes, the Albanian words are deformed in such a way that no one is
able to see where they are coming from. Who would ever say that the
Albanian ‘mbretëreshë’ (queen) was derived from the Italian
‘imperatrice’ (empress)? Albanian ‘shkrim’ means writing
(shkrimtar writer), from Latin scribo (Serb. škrabati; from
‘izgrebati’ scratch). The ‘shkrep’ is Albanian word for crag,
rock and it appeared from the Serbian ‘škrape’; again related to
the Serbian verb ‘iz-grebati’ (Eng. scratch, scrape; Serb. greben
ridge). Is there any difficulty with the Albanian word ‘shkurtim’
(abbreviation; Alb. shkurt, shkurtër short; Serb. skratiti )? Italian
‘socio’ (fellow, partner) became the Albanian ‘shok’ (friend).
Interesting, the shoulder is named ‘shpatull’ in Albanian (from
Ital. spatula, a broad flat body part as of the shoulder, Gr. Gk.
λεπίδα blade, σπάθα sward, Serb. lopata shovel). In fact,
‘spatula’ could be metathesis from the Serbian ‘slepiti’
(stick, adhere), sljubiti’ (adhere as if by kissing), ‘slupati’
(shatter, break up) and ‘šljapiti’ (hit, strike), ‘slap’
(cascade), ‘slabine’ (loin, groin).
Abdullah Konushevci
interesting!
Etymolgy: VUKDU from Vukotic Dusan.
Konushevci
Dusan Vukotic
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
Thanks Abdullah! (-:
Interesting, we may be speaking the same language, although we hardly
understand each other.
Dušan
Dusan Vukotic
Falemnderit!
Falem sounds familiar to me. (-: Hvala!
However, this 'nder' seems to be a big brain-teaser for me.
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Your are misled. See root *spe(n)d- and Alb faltore 'shrine', te falat
e nuses 'bride's offerings' ; m'u fale 'to pray' etc. *sp- > Alb f-.
Did you ask your self why Rusian and other Slavic langueges use
different words for 'thank you'? It could very easy be a loan from
Albanian. So, Alb falemnderit has the primary meaning 'I pray for your
honor', as well as falmeshendet 'I pray for your health'.
Konushevci
Abdullah Konushevci
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> AENONA, city in Liburnia (Plin. NH III 21, today village Nin in
> Croatia) with variants Ainona (Ptolem. II 16,2) with clear Latin
> replacement of diphthong /ae/ to /ai/ and Elona/Enona (Rav. IV 22; V
> 14) through regular reading of diphthong /ae/ or /ai/ as simple /e/
> testifies that its today's form Nin is formed through Proto-Albanian,
> characterized with proverbial aphaeresis of unstressed syllable in
> initial position (cf. Astibos > Shtip, Osinium > Sinj , Argyrocastra >
> Gjirokastër etc.). The suffix -ona, characteristic for Illyrian
> place names, is regularly replaced in Slavic by suffix -in: Salona >
> Solin, Narona > Norin, Avlona/Albona > Labin etc., while it was
> preserved in Albanian place names: Avlona, Valbona, Grabona etc.
> Etymology: According to Udolph, the stem *aen- is the A-language
> counterpart of the IE root *ein-, an extension of *ei- 'to go'. Thus
> the name could be compared with hydronyms like Aenus fl. (Germania).
> Starting from phonetic form *ain- I assume that its proto-form should
> be *oi-no- 'one, unique' with regular outcome of PIE *oi > PAlb
> ai > e, typical as a first element of compound words (cf. Cletic
> Oen-gus).
>
Today I found place name DAINO, attested in Latin and Italian sources
from Middle Age, known as one of the strongest fortress of Skanderbeg
("Reise durch die Gebeite des Drin und Wardar", 1867 by Johann G. von
Hahn, especially outline "Vau i Dejës"). In Cybalist (message 33681 of
1 August 2004) I have noticed that Alb river names Drini, Drilon,
Kril-eva are all from prefixed form D-rinu, D-ril-on and K-ril-eva (cf.
OE rinnan 'to run' < *ri-nu, Low German rille 'running stream'< *ri-l-)
and I will add now also D-riv-astum (cf. Lat rivus 'stream'). To same
conclusion cames also Sorin Paliga: Davçe < Ad Avçe, Damar < Ad Amar,
Deles < Ad Alesso, Devea < Aveaco, Darte < Arte, writting about
pre-Slavic and pre-Latin place name in Slovenia, being not aware of my
view. I stress this so much out, just to justify also castle and city
name DAIN-O as prefixed form D-AIN-o, attested also in
Ain-ona/Aen-ona/Enona above etc. The same development we saw in road
name Shkalla e D-unjas 'Watery Stair, for it passes nearby brooks and
rivulets, as well as Qafa e D-ulës 'Lowering Pass' in Kosova.
Dusan Vukotic
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
Wrong Abdulah. What about the Latin 'qualis'? Serb. hvalisanje
(boasting); kakvo_li_je. If you want I can explain you what's really
hapened here. Nothing to do with the loan_word Albanian vocabulary.
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Dusan Vukotic wrote:
> At the end, let us be reminded of the Serbian/Slavic personal names
> like Lovro, Lovrenović, Lavrnić, Lubarda, Ljubović, Ljubo, Ljuban,
> Labus, Labud and the place names Ljubovo, Lapovo, LJUBLJANA, LIPLJAN
> (the town in Kosovo, Serbia; the same BEL-BEL basis as Ljubljana; Serb.
> ljubljenje kissing; OBLJUBITI => POLJUBITI kiss). LJIPLJAN is the one
> of the numberless evidences that the Serbian toponymic names in Balkan
> were distorted by Romans – in the case of Lipljan, Ulpiana is a
> deformed name of the Serbian Lipljan).
>
> DV
About the river name Lab in Dardania I think that we have much better
explanation. Because the river names are more archaich parts of place
names, I am inclined to see it derived from *sloub-o, o-grade form of
*(s)leub- 'be slick, wet'. Its suffixed zero-grade form *(s)lub-no have
yielded in Albanian lumë 'river' (M. Huld, BAE, p. 88), like *sup-no >
Alb gjumë 'sleep', *lubh-no > Alb (i) lumë 'lucky'. So, *sl- > Alb
ll, *ou > a and *bh > b are all regular outcomes to explain river name
Llap/Llab with regular devoicing of bilabial stop. Form its name take
the name the provinces Llapi and Gallapi. Also we have ancient
attestation in Colapis and in ancient Dardanian place names Labutza and
Laberion.
Dušan Vukotić
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
Abdullah,
Nobody needs to be an expert to see that your above explanation is too
taut and grotesque.
Logic is clear here, we start with the reduplicated BEL syllable;
namely, BEL-BEL-GON => O-BLJU-BLJE-N (to stick close, beloved) =>
O-BLJU-BI-TI => POLJU-BI-TI (kiss) => LJUBITI (kiss), O-BLI-VA-TI
(splash, suffuse) = LIVATI (splash, pour; Lat. libatio); PLAVITI
(flood) => LAVA (lava) PLIVATI (swim) => LIVATI, LITI (pour)
LABIN (Istria), LAB (Serbia), LABA (Northern Germany),
LIVNO (city in Bosnia), LEBANE (Serbia), PLAV (Monte Negro), PLIVA
(river Croatia),
LIPLJAN (Serbia), LJUBLJANA, (Slovenia), LUBLIN (Poland)
LJUBIJA (Bosnia), LJUBOVIJA (Serbia) etc.
Albanian lumë 'river' is a derivative from the Latin 'flumen' and it's
got nothing to do with Albania and Albanian language.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
Why would you not read the great Albanian historian Ardian Vehbiu? I
think it could be very educational for you:
http://members.aol.com/Plaku/illyrian.htm
-There is an Illyrian myth, with which Albanian culture has been
flirting for at least 150 years, and as a myth it can't be questioned
(for it has all the answers). There is also a very tentative Illyrian
science, based mainly on archaeology, and on some data transmitted by
Ancient Greek and Latin Historians.
These inscriptions, being totally alien to Albanian, show that the
Illyrian question is extremely complicated, and that it isn't likely to
be resolved, unless fundamental epigraphic discoveries are made.
The great Illyrologist Hans Krahe himself was no supporter of the
Illyrian theory about the origin of Albanians. In his late years he
came to understand that most of his paleolinguistic theories were
generally wrong. Krahe started by finding Illyrian traces everywhere in
Europe, but then it was made clear that all he had found were
Indo-European traces -- and nobody had any doubt that Indo-European
tribes had been in Europe for a long many years.
Onomastics is of no great help in settling linguistic and ethnogenetic
issues. Let's have a look at some important place names in Albanian
territories, like Dajti, Shkodra, Durresi, Vlora, Burreli, Drini,
Shkumbini, Tirana, etc. Are they Albanian? We can't say that, for there
are no Albanian words that would explain them (as we explain, for
example, Kruja with "krue" - fountain).
This might well be true, but seems pathetic in front of the fact that
we can't explain through Albanian words the place names we currently
use, let alone the Illyrian ones. So what?
Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages
the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in
the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where
are the places they have named after their common words (technically
called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic
place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar,
Mallakaster, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the
Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.
Abdullah Konushevci
Gathering similar words together has nothing to do with sound approach
to onomastics, it has nothing to do even with folk etymology.
Your bel-bel-gon or sur-bel-gon syllables confines with madness.
>
> Albanian lumë 'river' is a derivative from the Latin 'flumen' and it's
> got nothing to do with Albania and Albanian language.
It could not be a derivative, if you pretend, but a loan from Latin.
But, why should Albanian drops initial voicless interdental fricative
/f/ in cluster fl-, when it is so familiar in Albanian, i.e. there are
no phonotactics rule that will stop it, cf. flas 'I speak', flakë
'flame, blaze', flutur 'butterfly' and so on.
> DV
Abdullah Konushevci
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> Onomastics is of no great help in settling linguistic and ethnogenetic
> issues. Let's have a look at some important place names in Albanian
> territories, like Dajti, Shkodra, Durresi, Vlora, Burreli, Drini,
> Shkumbini, Tirana, etc. Are they Albanian? We can't say that, for there
> are no Albanian words that would explain them (as we explain, for
> example, Kruja with "krue" - fountain).
>
> This might well be true, but seems pathetic in front of the fact that
> we can't explain through Albanian words the place names we currently
> use, let alone the Illyrian ones. So what?
About Shkodra, Durrësi, Vlora, Drini, Shkumbini see my recent messages
on Cybalist and sci.lang.
> Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages
> the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in
> the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where
> are the places they have named after their common words (technically
> called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic
> place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar,
> Mallakaster, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the
> Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.
They are mentioned in Michael Attaleiates book as 'Albanoi, Romaino:n
kai 'Albano:n and Boulgaro:n te kai 'Arbanito:n (see G. Schramm, Fillet
e krishterimit shqiptar, pp. 280-281; R. Elsie, The First Byzantine
References www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH02.html). So, twice he used
latin tradition in naming the Albanians (in original text 'Albano:n,
gen plural) and once he used Byzantine tradition 'Arbanito:n.
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
More from the Albanian historian Ardian Vehbiu:
My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not
from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally
aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among
Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less
fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian
romanticism.
Nobody has ever put into discussion the fact that Albanians DO HAVE an
origin (probably Illyrian), but there is NO MEMORY of the Illyrian past
in the Albanian cultural heritage. Centuries of Turkish role didn't
destroy our memory of being Albanians (but we DID lose the names
"Arber" and "Arberi", and started calling ourselves "shqiptare", and
the country "Shqiperi"). The descendants of Illyrians in the Middle
Ages, however, DIDN'T KNOW Illyrians were closely related to them. Even
the ideological leaders of Rilindja showed scarse interest in
Illyrians, obsessed as they were with the Pelasgian myth.
Nobody is doubting that Albanians might have inherited a number of
costumes and customs from Illyrians, rather than their pertinency to
the discussion. My point is that there is NO MEMORY of this Illyrian
past in the Albanian cultural heritage. Nobody has ever put into
discussion the fact that the Albanians DO have an origin (probably
Illyrian).
I don't see any kind of contradicting here. Illyrians were discovered
to have been (probably) our ancestors in the 19th century. Up to that
date hardly any Albanian had ever heard about this. (Moreover, the
Illyrian heritage was claimed for some times by Croatians and Slovenes,
when these peoples were going through their own period of awakening.
Before the advent of comparative linguistics, ideas about the origin of
peoples and languages were generally confuse.) That's precisely what I
mean with a memory lost. We knew we were Albanians, but we didn't knew
who were our ancestors in antiquity. As a PEOPLE, we knew about
Scanderbeg, but not about Bardylis.
Dušan Vukotić
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
Vehbiu:
"When people move, their memories change. We all know that, in spite of
the great gesta of our national hero Scanderbeg, his name in Albania
was practically FORGOTTEN, until the Rilindja came to tell Albanians
about him. A whole area in the North sings to Muji and Halili, and
Gjergj Elez Alia, and Krajleviq Marko, and Zuku Bajraktar, and Paji
Harambash, but makes no mention of Gjergj Kastrioti.
"The Arbresh in Italy generally claim that their communities were
created from people coming from Northern Albania. Their actual dialect,
though, is strictly Tosk. Was Tosk the language spoken in Kruja and
Shkodra at that time? Probably not, because the "Baptismal Formula", or
the first written document in Albanian, produced by the Bishop of
Durres, has clear Gheg features (not to mention "Meshari").
Dušan Vukotić
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
Vehbiu:
"The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic
place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar,
Mallakaster, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the
Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism.
All toponyms in Kosovo are Serbian, most of the place names in today's
Albania are also Serbian... Do you not find unusual that Albanians have
used Serbian to denote the places where they have been living for
centuries?
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
It seems that you are forced to be based in Vahabi sources. Poor Dusan!
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
In case of Serbian we do not need any kind of linguistic 'gymnastics'.
Only fool would not be able to see the logical connections among all
the words I have mentioned, not only from Balkan but across the whole
Europe. Would you say that Poles had loaned an Albano-Illyrian name in
case of LUBLIN or Czechs when naming LIPOVICE?
Albanian 'lume' is as much original word as there are Albanian
'lakmues' (greedy; from Serbian LAKOM greedy) or 'lavdi' (glory, fame;
from Serbian SLAVITI glorify; Lat. libatio), 'lëndinë' (nasalized
Serbian LEDINA (meadow, grass-land), listë (from Serbian LIST(A) leaf,
list), 'livadh' (from Serbian LIVADA meadow)
Your 'lum' (happy' has nothing to the with 'lumë' (river), because
that word was contracted from 'lumtur(i)' happy, happiness and it
probably came from the Serbian 'lunjati' (lunjarati, lunjara) and
LUNTOR (fool around, gad about, a restless seeker after amusement;
Serb. LANDRATI move around aimlessly, potter); this Serbian words comes
from the BEL-GON basis (Serb. bludeti, BLUD bawdry, LUTANJE wandering,
LUD fool, crazy; cf. English LEWDNESS). Should I remind you of Serbian
syntagm 'LUD od sreće' (go crazy from happiness).
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
> It seems that you are forced to be based in Vahabi sources. Poor Dusan!
Ardian Vehbiu has nothing in common with VAHABI movement (Wahabit), at
least as far as I know.
One would say, you never heard about the work of the leading Albanian
historian.
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
I confess I didn't, but somehow this Ardian sounds to me Illyrian!
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
So do Haradin and Hardin (Serb. Gordan, Jordan, Ardutina) ;-))
ARDIEI <= Vardaei; Vardar, Varda; in fact T-VRDA, T-VRDJAVA, DVOR
(citadel, tower, castle).
Do you not see: Serb. OBRADA (Lat. abrado), OBRADJEN, DOVRSHEN,
UTVRDJEN; Slavic surnames VARDA, VARDIC, BARTOLIC, VRDOLJAK and place
name VARDA (village near KOSJERIC, Serbia).
Of course, you are going to say that Albanian have the name Barthyl as
a memory on famous Illyrian king Bardhyllus, but at your misfortune you
are unable to explain that name with the help of the Albanian
vocabulary. Are you going to say that Bardhyllus is "white star", from
the Albanian word bardhë (white)? OK, I would be ready to accept such
explanation if you were able to tel me the history of the Albanian word
bardhë.
How many Bardillo names we have in Italy, Spain and Portugal? ;-)
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
All right. I will try to explain Alb bardh 'white', but first I like to
know is the Dušan related to do-uš-nik?
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
I would rather say 'dužnik' (debtor), because it seems I will never
stop paying back the money I borrowed. :-)
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
Do not rush. Work at your own pace.
I do understand the complexity of such a big undertaking! :-))
DV
Paul J Kriha
news:1168545902.4...@i39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
[...]
>> All right. I will try to explain Alb bardh 'white', but first I like to
>> know is the Dušan related to do-uš-nik?
>
>I would rather say 'dužnik' (debtor), because it seems I will never
>stop paying back the money I borrowed. :-)
You'll have to sell your soul (duša) (or is it duše po srpski?)
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
Paul J Kriha wrote:
Duša is OK ('duše' is plural of 'duša'; Mrtve DUŠE - Gogol's "Dead
SOULS").
The whole world is doing nothing but selling souls. The prize of the
souls of today is on the lowest level possible; it is not profitable
any more.
Please, may I ask you to be quiet and not disturb the poor Abdulah's
soul; he is in the deepest depths of desperate contemplation, trying to
find the answer to the above "white star" question.
DV
Abdullah Konushevci
*bherHg- ‘to shine; bright, white’, PIE form *bherHg’- is
probably the root from which the Albanian bredh ‘fir, fir-tree’ was
derived, as well as Romanian brad ‘fir’. Its perform was probably
o-grade form *bhrog’-o > PAlb *bradza. From this root is also derived
Old English birce(e) ‘birch’ from Germanic *birkjo:n- as well as
Latin fraxinus ‘ash tree’. Generally this root is used to describe
the ‘white tree’. From this root is also derived Alb adjective
(i,e) bardhë ‘white’ probably from suffixed zero-grade form
*bhr.H2g’-o, where *-r.H2- has yielded PAlb –ra- (see Cybalist). As
adjective it is also used in personal names: Albert from OHG Adalbert
‘nobel bright’ (adal ‘nobel’), OHG Giselberht ‘bright
hostage’, Herbert ‘bright army’ and so on (see Watkins AHDIR,
p.11.). So, to claim that Illyrian king’s name Bardhylis is not
derived from the adjective *bhr.H2g’-o, to my view, is nonsense. This
adjective is also present in Romanian barza ‘stork; literally - white
bird’ and I believe in Slavic patronymic Lubarda probably from
lumbardha ‘female pigeon, bomb’ or (i,e) lubardhë ‘whitish,
fair-hared, blond’. To me is very interesting its religious meaning
‘blessed’: i bardhi ti ‘blessed you’, e bardha ditë ‘blessed
day’ etc.
I think that –is in king’s name Bardhylis is a masculine ending,
till –yl could be a suffix, attested also in z-bërdhyl-un
‘whitish’ etc.
Etymology Bardhylis ‘white star’ to my view is a folk etymology,
made by Edwin Jacques in his book: The Albanians: An Ethnic History
from Prehistoric Times to the Present (page 82.).
Konushevci
Dušan Vukotić
Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
I agree here with you. Ur-basis of the Albanian 'bredh' (fir) and
'bardhë' (white) obviously was BR-GON (or the "root" *bherHg’-) as
it was the source of other words, Albanian 'bredh' (wander), Albanian
'prag' (threshold; loan word from Serbian –prag-) or the English
'bread'. For instance, English bread probably came from OHG prioჳan
(Latin frangere, Serbian prsnuti) but it could have also come from the
English 'burn' (Serbian purenje); i.e. from 'brewing' (Serb. 'vrenje'
yeast fermenting process). In fact, it doesn't matter (at all!) from
which of the three above "sources" bread appeared, because all the
above processes are clearly and logically connected.
There is no doubt that the Albanian 'bardhë' and English 'bright' are
the descendants of the same above progenitor. Nevertheless, I could
not agree with you that ‘birch’ (Serbian ‘breza’) means
“white tree” because ‘percus’ (“Perkūnas, Latvian Pērkons,
Prussian Perkonis, in name and function closely associated with the
Slavic Perun, Hittite Peruna, Old Indic Parjānya” /Marija Gimbutas
The Balts/) has the meaning ‘oak’. Most of the modern linguists
believe that Latin ‘quercus’ is coming from ‘percus’; in
reality, ‘quercus’ is related to Serbian ‘hrast’ and Celtic
‘Hercynia’, both from the basis HOR-GON. Perkunas, like Perun, Thor
and Donnar, is a Thunder god and, as we know, thunder strikes the oak
tree very often. Serbian ‘brest’ might be translated as
‘bel-hrast’ (elm; white oak), or it just happened to look so
because <brest> is the tree of the god Bel. If we consider carefully
the Serbian word ‘drvo’ we will see that this word comes from the
ancient basis HOR-BEL (compare Russian дерево/ đerevo, Serbian
‘gorivo’ /fuel/, ‘ogrev’ /fuel/ and you will be able to grasp
what I am talking about).
Romanian ‘barza’ is coming from the same well spring as the Serbian
word ‘roda’ (stork). In fact barza (roda, stork) is considered as
to be the BIRD that BRINGS babies. As you see I intentionally
capitalized words BIRD and BRING trying to show you the way in which
the English words BIRD, BRING and BIRTH are mutually connected (Serbian
POROD = BIRTH). Hence, Romanian BARZA has nothing to do with your
‘white bird’?
Let me finish. I do also agree with you that no one with the sound
mind would have ever claimed that Bardhylis was not derived from BR-GON
basis (or your *bhr.H2g’-o “root”). The ur-basis BR-GON means
literally ‘opposite driving’ and there from we have the Serbian
words ‘obrtati’ (rotate), ‘obratiti se’ (address),
‘obrnuti’ (convert), ‘obratno’ (inverse), ‘vrteti’ (spin),
‘obratiti se nekome’ (come up to). If you were in trouble to whom
would you come up to for help? Of course, probably you would have
addressed first to your brother (Serbian BRAT). There are a lot of
Serbian names and surnames that have been derived from the word BRAT
(brother) – BRACAN, BRATKO, BRATISLAV, BRATOVOJE, BRATOMIR, BRAJAN
(medieval Serbian name, the same as today’s BRIAN in UK), BRATOLJUB
(often nicknamed as BRATOJLE); and some other names (old and modern) as
BRACA, BRAJO, BRALE, BRAJLE, BRAJILO.
According to the above analysis Bardhylis appears to be a clear Slavic
name, and I admit, it opposes the official historic view about “the
great migration of the Slavs” during the 6-7th century AD. It shows,
together with the clear Slavic geographical names across the whole
Central and South Europe, that Slavs were indigenous Balkan people.
DV
Dušan Vukotić
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
Abdullah,
Are you OK?
DV