Recirculating pump for instant hot water.

[Lamont Cranston]

Does anyone here have a recirculating pump to provide instant hot water to a faucet. I was looking putting at a heater under my kitchen sink, but decided it took more room than I was willing to give up. Then I started looking at the recirculating pumps, that use the cold water pipe as a return for the hot water that gets pumped to the faucet. If you don't know, a little description may be helpful. The common installation has a thermal valve at the last faucet of the plumbing run. This thermal valve is between the incoming hot water pipe and the incoming cold water pipe. The pump usually mounted at the water heater, pumps hot water through the hot pipe and back through the cold pipe until the thermal valve senses hot water at the last faucet at which time the valve closes so no more water circulates through the pipes. However the pump continues to run. Many of the pumps have a timer that controls at minimum a 15 minute on, 15 minute off cycle. You can also set it so the pump is off when sleeping or when you're not home if you have regular schedule.
What are your thoughts about automating this so that when the water reaches a certain temperature at the last sink it sends a signal back to the pump to shut it off. Wireless would be preferable. Because the thermal valve closes at about 90*F I suspect a electric water valve would be need to isolate the hot and cold water when the water has reached the proper temperature. Ditching the thermal valve. I'm bothered by the pump running constantly when not needed. Even though it is only 22 watts. This is small compared to the cost of heating the water that cools in the pipe between the thermal valve cycles. This is somewhat offset by the
water/sewer cost and the cost to heat the extra water that is run down the drain. It wastes 1.4 gallons waiting for hot water at the shower, and about 1/2 gallon every time you try to get hot water at the kitchen sink. My water/sewer cost is 2.4 cent a gallon and another 3.2 cents to heat a gallon of water. Your thoughts?
Mikek

[Carlos E.R.]

Interesting idea. Never heard of this pump, but it certainly can solve a
problem. At worst, the thing can have a switch, and connected when going
to use the shower. Or a timer. Push the button, and have an hour of
instant hot water.

You might replace the thermo-valve with a sensor that would both switch
a valve and disconnect the pump. Or the pump could be installed at the
end of the run, perhaps, no valve.


In my case, the pump would need to put some pressure, because I have a
flash or instant gas heater. It fires when there is hot water flow, by
detecting a pressure drop, I guess.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/12/2023 1:33 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> Does anyone here have a recirculating pump to provide instant hot water to a
> faucet.

I think they covered this on (at least one) _This Old House_ episode, some
time back. IIRC, the situation was a second story bathroom that had "slow"
hot water... seldom used so any water "stored" in the pipe had ample time to
cool -- and a long lag to be "flushed" so fresh hot water could replace it.

> I was looking putting at a heater under my kitchen sink, but decided it took
> more room than I was willing to give up. Then I started looking at the
> recirculating pumps, that use the cold water pipe as a return for the hot
> water that gets pumped to the faucet. If you don't know, a little
> description may be helpful. The common installation has a thermal valve at
> the last faucet of the plumbing run. This thermal valve is between the
> incoming hot water pipe and the incoming cold water pipe. The pump usually
> mounted at the water heater, pumps hot water through the hot pipe and back
> through the cold pipe until the thermal valve senses hot water at the last
> faucet at which time the valve closes so no more water circulates through
> the pipes. However the pump continues to run. Many of the pumps have a timer
> that controls at minimum a 15 minute on, 15 minute off cycle. You can also
> set it so the pump is off when sleeping or when you're not home if you have
> regular schedule.

Is there any reason (other than simplicity of control) that the pump must
run in that way/duty-cycle?

> What are your thoughts about automating this so that when the water reaches
> a certain temperature at the last sink it sends a signal back to the pump to
> shut it off. Wireless would be preferable. Because the thermal valve closes
> at about 90*F I suspect a electric water valve would be need to isolate the
> hot and cold water when the water has reached the proper temperature.

Could a pressure sensitive valve, instead, be used? Look at the pressures
encountered in each pipe in each use/recirculate case...

> Ditching the thermal valve. I'm bothered by the pump running constantly when
> not needed. Even though it is only 22 watts. This is small compared to the
> cost of heating the water that cools in the pipe between the thermal valve
> cycles. This is somewhat offset by the water/sewer cost and the cost to heat
> the extra water that is run down the drain. It wastes 1.4 gallons waiting
> for hot water at the shower, and about 1/2 gallon every time you try to get
> hot water at the kitchen sink. My water/sewer cost is 2.4 cent a gallon and
> another 3.2 cents to heat a gallon of water. Your thoughts?

Does it truly have to be "hot"? E.g., could you mix in VERY HOT water
from an "instant hot water" dispenser at the use site? And, in this
way, keep the water "warmer than cold" -- until the real hot water
supply comes along to do the heavy lifting? ISTR these are relatively
small units designed just to deliver low volumes of very hot water
through a separate "faucet".

[Lamont Cranston]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:17:11 PM UTC-5, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Interesting idea. Never heard of this pump, but it certainly can solve a
> problem. At worst, the thing can have a switch, and connected when going
> to use the shower. Or a timer. Push the button, and have an hour of
> instant hot water.
>
> You might replace the thermo-valve with a sensor that would both switch
> a valve and disconnect the pump. Or the pump could be installed at the
> end of the run, perhaps, no valve.
>
>
> In my case, the pump would need to put some pressure, because I have a
> flash or instant gas heater. It fires when there is hot water flow, by
> detecting a pressure drop, I guess.
>
> --
> Cheers, Carlos.

Yes, I have seen the idea of a button at the sink, it does save the wasted water but not the time waiting for hot water.
It would probably be a longer wait because I suspect the pump has a lower flow rate than the normal outlet water flow.
It seems like the pump could have a pressure sensor on it to know when the thermovalve shut, but sense it is not a
displacement type pump, I don't have any idea if there is any or what the differential pressure is.
Mikek

[Ed Lee]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 1:33:57 PM UTC-7, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> Does anyone here have a recirculating pump to provide instant hot water to a faucet. I was looking putting at a heater under my kitchen sink, but decided it took more room than I was willing to give up. Then I started looking at the recirculating pumps, that use the cold water pipe as a return for the hot water that gets pumped to the faucet. If you don't know, a little description may be helpful. The common installation has a thermal valve at the last faucet of the plumbing run. This thermal valve is between the incoming hot water pipe and the incoming cold water pipe. The pump usually mounted at the water heater, pumps hot water through the hot pipe and back through the cold pipe until the thermal valve senses hot water at the last faucet at which time the valve closes so no more water circulates through the pipes. However the pump continues to run. Many of the pumps have a timer that controls at minimum a 15 minute on, 15 minute off cycle. You can also set it so the pump is off when sleeping or when you're not home if you have regular schedule.

> What are your thoughts about automating this o that when the water reaches a certain temperature at the last sink it sends a signal back to the pump to shut it off. Wireless would be preferable. Because the thermal valve closes at about 90*F I suspect a electric water valve would be need to isolate the hot and cold water when the water has reached the proper temperature. Ditching the thermal valve. I'm bothered by the pump running constantly when not needed. Even though it is only 22 watts. This is small compared to the cost of heating the water that cools in the pipe between the thermal valve cycles. This is somewhat offset by the

> water/sewer cost and the cost to heat the extra water that is run down the drain. It wastes 1.4 gallons waiting for hot water at the shower, and about 1/2 gallon every time you try to get hot water at the kitchen sink. My water/sewer cost is 2.4 cent a gallon and another 3.2 cents to heat a gallon of water. Your thoughts?
> Mikek

I had these pump before. So, a few observations: it only save money for gas water heater. Otherwise, it would be better to have electric heater closer to the faucel. The pump tends to lock up if not in use for long period of time. Suggestion is to run at least a few minutes per day.

Regarding cold water pipe recirculation, you would have to be careful about drinking from tap water. Hot water have more bacteria. You don't want to mix up hot and cold pipes.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

> Could a pressure sensitive valve, instead, be used? Look at the pressures
> encountered in each pipe in each use/recirculate case...

I mentioned that, open endedly in my previous post because I don't know what the pressures would be.
You have a pump that is already at 50 psi at the input and it may have slight increase to make the water flow,
but I don't think is is much pressure

> Does it truly have to be "hot"? E.g., could you mix in VERY HOT water
> from an "instant hot water" dispenser at the use site?

Ya, I'm already not to happy the the thermal valve works at 90*F so the water is already not hot.
I think that is a tradeoff so as to reduce the cost of the wasted heat lost in the pipes.

>And, in this way, keep the water "warmer than cold" -- until the real hot water
> supply comes along to do the heavy lifting? ISTR these are relatively
> small units designed just to deliver low volumes of very hot water
> through a separate "faucet".

I understand the idea, just not sure about a point of use water heater and a circulation pump.

[John Larkin]

Eight cents per shower doesn't sound like a big problem to be solved.
A second shower, or showering with a friend, is free.

>
>Does it truly have to be "hot"? E.g., could you mix in VERY HOT water
>from an "instant hot water" dispenser at the use site? And, in this
>way, keep the water "warmer than cold" -- until the real hot water
>supply comes along to do the heavy lifting? ISTR these are relatively
>small units designed just to deliver low volumes of very hot water
>through a separate "faucet".

Just run them in series, local electric water heater with a small
tank, fed from the long slow pipe from the main water heater.

We keep a bucket in the shower and run the water into that until it
gets hot. We water plants from the bucket. That takes maybe 2 gallons.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:47:23 PM UTC-5, Ed Lee wrote:

> I had these pump before. So, a few observations: it only save money for gas water heater.

Why would it only save money for a gas water heater? Second, I'm not sure it ever saves any money,
as I think the extra cost to heat water that just cools in the pipe many times per day is higher that the money saved
on less water wasted down the drain.
Otherwise, it would be better to have electric heater closer to the faucet. The pump tends to lock up if not in use for long period of time. Suggestion is to run at least a few minutes per day.

>
> Regarding cold water pipe recirculation, you would have to be careful about drinking from tap water. Hot water have more bacteria. You don't want to mix up hot and cold pipes.

Hmm, I have not seen any discussion about bacteria on the many pages of info I have read. This is the way these pumps are used, generally only on new installations is a separate return pipe used. Years ago we built a house with the water heater in the basement, I did add a return line and the whole thing was gravity fed so no pump needed, it worked very well.
Here is a somewhat typical pump although this has the extra bells and whistles like a timer and the thermal valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Watts-500800-Instant-Recirculating-Install/dp/B000E78XHG/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=Watts+recirculation+pump&qid=1678658313&sr=8-5
Mikek

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

I considered using waste water to preheat the cold water coming into
the water heater. There are gadgets to do that, and our incoming water
is always cold. But it would be a hassle with decades to pay back.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:

> Eight cents per shower doesn't sound like a big problem to be solved.
> A second shower, or showering with a friend, is free.

It's not a big problem, and it all started with just wanting instant hot water at the kitchen sink,
finding not enough room under the sink and then reading about recirculation pumps and the thermal valve
then finding they are often installed at the farthest sink. Now I've expended my thinking to the
whole house instead of just the kitchen sink. Although I may just drop back to the kitchen sink.

> We keep a bucket in the shower and run the water into that until it
> gets hot. We water plants from the bucket. That takes maybe 2 gallons.

Ya, that's something my wife would do, but I'm not about to fill a bucket until the water is
warm then set the bucket out into the bathroom and take my shower, then worry about watering the plants.
But, I'm not in CA. either, with all your states rules.
Mikek

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-12 22:43, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:17:11 PM UTC-5, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Interesting idea. Never heard of this pump, but it certainly can solve a
>> problem. At worst, the thing can have a switch, and connected when going
>> to use the shower. Or a timer. Push the button, and have an hour of
>> instant hot water.
>>
>> You might replace the thermo-valve with a sensor that would both switch
>> a valve and disconnect the pump. Or the pump could be installed at the
>> end of the run, perhaps, no valve.
>>
>>
>> In my case, the pump would need to put some pressure, because I have a
>> flash or instant gas heater. It fires when there is hot water flow, by
>> detecting a pressure drop, I guess.

> Yes, I have seen the idea of a button at the sink, it does save the wasted water but not the time waiting for hot water.
> It would probably be a longer wait because I suspect the pump has a lower flow rate than the normal outlet water flow.
> It seems like the pump could have a pressure sensor on it to know when the thermovalve shut, but sense it is not a
> displacement type pump, I don't have any idea if there is any or what the differential pressure is.

I need it to have the same flow of water as the tap. If the flow is too
small, the boiler doesn't fire. If it is different, the temperature
differs from the normal status. For example, if the flow is small, but
enough to trigger the boiler, say half of the normal tap flow, I would
get double the temperature for a while.

The button idea is to have the system active for a time, say one hour,
then it goes off. My pipes are not insulated, so I would waste too much
having the system waiting and ready the whole day.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT), Lamont Cranston
<amd...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 5:03:21?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> Eight cents per shower doesn't sound like a big problem to be solved.
>> A second shower, or showering with a friend, is free.
> It's not a big problem, and it all started with just wanting instant hot water at the kitchen sink,
>finding not enough room under the sink and then reading about recirculation pumps and the thermal valve
>then finding they are often installed at the farthest sink. Now I've expended my thinking to the
>whole house instead of just the kitchen sink. Although I may just drop back to the kitchen sink.

Recirculation will waste heat. Some of the heat from hot pipes will go
outdoors and some will diffuse indoors, good in winter but bad in
summer.

>
>> We keep a bucket in the shower and run the water into that until it
>> gets hot. We water plants from the bucket. That takes maybe 2 gallons.
>
> Ya, that's something my wife would do, but I'm not about to fill a bucket until the water is
>warm then set the bucket out into the bathroom and take my shower, then worry about watering the plants.

My wife is the plant person here. All I do is run the shower into the
bucket. I was waiting around anyhow.

>But, I'm not in CA. either, with all your states rules.
> Mikek

No state rules apply to the bucket.

[Ricky]

Personally, I think this is not a good idea. It doesn't solve the problem of the hot water cooling in the pipe, in terms of the cost to heat it. In fact, it ramps up that cost by assuring there is constantly hot water that is losing heat.

In Puerto Rico, they actually seldom bother with hot water at sinks. You don't really need 130°F water to wash your hands. Some places use an instant hot water heater for the whole house. Those tend to not work so well, as the water cools significantly by the time it reaches the sink or shower. This may be because the pipes are run in the concrete walls or floors, which wicks away heat more rapidly than the air space in lumber and dryrock construction.

But they also use instant heaters at the point of use. These work well, if sized properly. 120V tends to be a bit less heat than you might like, but is generally good enough. One place had an instant hot water heater for the house, using gas. It seemed to cut in and out, with the water temperature going hot, then cold, every couple of minutes. Not much fun in the shower!

It is not uncommon for larger houses to have two hot water heaters, one for the main level, and one for upstairs. I have estimated my 30 year old hot water heater uses about 3 kWh per day, when no water is used. I get this from the whole house electrical use when no one is home. The normal level runs 0.384 kWh (reported units are multiples of 128 Wh/hr) and spikes up to around 0.896 kWh per hour once, every 4 hours. So that's about $0.35 per day, or $2.50 a week.

So how much would it cost to keep the water hot, in 50 feet of uninsulated copper pipe? I bet it doubles the cost of the hot water heater idle power. I think I'd opt for good quality instant heaters, or install a second hot water heater (it can be a smaller unit and can be in the attic).

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Don Y]

On 3/12/2023 2:52 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>
>> Could a pressure sensitive valve, instead, be used? Look at the pressures
>> encountered in each pipe in each use/recirculate case...
> I mentioned that, open endedly in my previous post because I don't know what the pressures would be.
> You have a pump that is already at 50 psi at the input and it may have slight increase to make the water flow,
> but I don't think is is much pressure

I'm thinking about how the whole house pressure regulators work.
They drop the municipal water pressure to a point that the user
sets. But, if the internal pressure (on the house side) rises
above the municipal water pressure, a relief valve opens to
ensure the household pressure never rises above the municipal
water pressure.

[Folks who fail to install an expansion tank on the load side of
such a pressure reducing valve will experience very high pressures
when the water heater is depleted of hot water and that dense
COLD water must be heated. With no path back to the municipal
supply, the expanding water quickly drives the pressure in
the NOW CLOSED system very high!]

>> Does it truly have to be "hot"? E.g., could you mix in VERY HOT water
>> from an "instant hot water" dispenser at the use site?
>
> Ya, I'm already not to happy the the thermal valve works at 90*F so the water is already not hot.
> I think that is a tradeoff so as to reduce the cost of the wasted heat lost in the pipes.
>
>> And, in this way, keep the water "warmer than cold" -- until the real hot water
>> supply comes along to do the heavy lifting? ISTR these are relatively
>> small units designed just to deliver low volumes of very hot water
>> through a separate "faucet".
>
> I understand the idea, just not sure about a point of use water heater and a circulation pump.

I'm saying to skip the pump. Let the "conventional" hot water delivery
mechanism move water to your point-of-use. *Know* that the first few
gallons of this will be "tepid/cool". Blend very hot water sourced
at the point of use to raise the temperature of that water -- until
the hot water from your "real" water heater can make its way through
the pipes.

I.e., rely on the fact that the "instant hot water" device can't deliver
a lot of water but can, hopefully, deliver enough to raise the
temperature of the water standing in the pipes. I *think* the way
those work is that they sense demand and only turn on (electric)
when the stored water (which is very little) temperature drops.

No idea what the overall power consumption would be as that would depend
on how often (and how *much*) you call on hot water.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-13 00:48, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/12/2023 2:52 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>>
>>> Could a pressure sensitive valve, instead, be used? Look at the
>>> pressures
>>> encountered in each pipe in each use/recirculate case...
>>    I mentioned that, open endedly in my previous post because I don't
>> know what the pressures would be.
>>   You have a pump that is already at 50 psi at the input and it may
>> have slight increase to make the water flow,
>>   but I don't think is is much pressure
>
> I'm thinking about how the whole house pressure regulators work.
> They drop the municipal water pressure to a point that the user
> sets.  But, if the internal pressure (on the house side) rises
> above the municipal water pressure, a relief valve opens to
> ensure the household pressure never rises above the municipal
> water pressure.
>
> [Folks who fail to install an expansion tank on the load side of
> such a pressure reducing valve will experience very high pressures
> when the water heater is depleted of hot water and that dense
> COLD water must be heated.  With no path back to the municipal
> supply, the expanding water quickly drives the pressure in
> the NOW CLOSED system very high!]

Ah. That's because water can not flow back to the municipal pipes.

There is another method: the hot water tank has a portion of air at the
top of the tank. And, the tank itself has a little relief valve at the
bottom. Now I clearly see why.


Curio history.

At a flat owned by a friend of mine they had such a hot water tank. The
floor was number 7, I think. The municipal network only grants that the
water reaches the ground level, the building has a tank and a pump to
push the water up. A pressure group, they call that here. But these
pumps don't create a constant pressure, but oscillating between a high
and low levels, constantly. This means that a little bit of water was
entering my friends flat, and exiting, oscillating in an out, up to a
few times per minute (say four). And, the flat has a water meter, that
doesn't count the water going out.

Result was the flat got an invoice for many thousand litres a month, a
significant number of euros.

The called a profesional plumber, who took a long time to find "the
leak". Then he installed a one way valve.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-12 23:45, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:33:57 PM UTC-4, Lamont Cranston wrote:

...

> One place had an instant hot water heater for the house, using gas. It seemed to cut in and out, with the water temperature going hot, then cold, every couple of minutes. Not much fun in the shower!

I have that, it's very common here. The temperature is constant, as long
as you don't touch the hot water tap and the water flow is constant.

There are two types: cheap, there is a constant gas flow, so the less
water flow, the hotter it is. Expensive, there is an electronic
regulator changing the gas flow trying to keep the temperature constant.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/12/2023 5:33 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-13 00:48, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/12/2023 2:52 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>>>
>>>> Could a pressure sensitive valve, instead, be used? Look at the pressures
>>>> encountered in each pipe in each use/recirculate case...
>>>    I mentioned that, open endedly in my previous post because I don't know
>>> what the pressures would be.
>>>   You have a pump that is already at 50 psi at the input and it may have
>>> slight increase to make the water flow,
>>>   but I don't think is is much pressure
>>
>> I'm thinking about how the whole house pressure regulators work.
>> They drop the municipal water pressure to a point that the user
>> sets.  But, if the internal pressure (on the house side) rises
>> above the municipal water pressure, a relief valve opens to
>> ensure the household pressure never rises above the municipal
>> water pressure.
>>
>> [Folks who fail to install an expansion tank on the load side of
>> such a pressure reducing valve will experience very high pressures
>> when the water heater is depleted of hot water and that dense
>> COLD water must be heated.  With no path back to the municipal
>> supply, the expanding water quickly drives the pressure in
>> the NOW CLOSED system very high!]
>
> Ah. That's because water can not flow back to the municipal pipes.

Exactly. The pressure reducing valve blocks that path -- UNLESS it
has a builtin relief valve. "Better" valves have this as a standard
feature -- cuz so many folks DON'T bother with the expansion tank
(in which case, why bother with the reducing valve?)

Our municipal pressure is ~110psi. Most "appliances" are rated at
a maximum of 80psi.

> There is another method: the hot water tank has a portion of air at the top of
> the tank. And, the tank itself has a little relief valve at the bottom. Now I
> clearly see why.

I don't think the relief valve in the water heater "wants" to open
in all but extreme cases. I don't think it is designed for "multiple
applications".

> Curio history.
>
> At a flat owned by a friend of mine they had such a hot water tank. The floor
> was number 7, I think. The municipal network only grants that the water reaches
> the ground level, the building has a tank and a pump to push the water up. A
> pressure group, they call that here. But these pumps don't create a constant
> pressure, but oscillating between a high and low levels, constantly. This means
> that a little bit of water was entering my friends flat, and exiting,
> oscillating in an out, up to a few times per minute (say four). And, the flat
> has a water meter, that doesn't count the water going out.
>
> Result was the flat got an invoice for many thousand litres a month, a
> significant number of euros.

Ha! Too funny.

> The called a profesional plumber, who took a long time to find "the leak". Then
> he installed a one way valve.

Ah, it's not common except for taller buildings (or, "defective" pumps?)
Otherwise, you would think the plumber would know what to look for...

[Don Y]

On 3/12/2023 2:52 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

>> And, in this way, keep the water "warmer than cold" -- until the real hot water
>> supply comes along to do the heavy lifting? ISTR these are relatively
>> small units designed just to deliver low volumes of very hot water
>> through a separate "faucet".
>
> I understand the idea, just not sure about a point of use water heater and a circulation pump.

This:

<https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired>

implements your solution -- but at the point-of-use end of the line.

*If* you have (or can get) power, there, then I suspect it may be a
more adaptable approach to the problem. I.e., sense the temperature
at the point-of-use and use that to control the pump located *there*
(instead of trying to signal a pump located at the water heater).

A bit of tinkering might have you periodically running the pump
"long enough" to ensure the water at your sensor is representative
of the water queued up in the pipe. Or (welcome to the 21st
century) *learning* your usage patterns and anticipating your
future needs for hot water before you make those demands.

[Reactive solutions are so 20th century... :> ]

[Carlos E.R.]

Oh, those I have seen can certainly be used often. Mine has a little
lever I can move with my finger and see water come out.

>
>> Curio history.
>>
>> At a flat owned by a friend of mine they had such a hot water tank.
>> The floor was number 7, I think. The municipal network only grants
>> that the water reaches the ground level, the building has a tank and a
>> pump to push the water up. A pressure group, they call that here. But
>> these pumps don't create a constant pressure, but oscillating between
>> a high and low levels, constantly. This means that a little bit of
>> water was entering my friends flat, and exiting, oscillating in an
>> out, up to a few times per minute (say four). And, the flat has a
>> water meter, that doesn't count the water going out.
>>
>> Result was the flat got an invoice for many thousand litres a month, a
>> significant number of euros.
>
> Ha!  Too funny.
>
>> The called a profesional plumber, who took a long time to find "the
>> leak". Then he installed a one way valve.
>
> Ah, it's not common except for taller buildings (or, "defective" pumps?)
> Otherwise, you would think the plumber would know what to look for...

I guess that plumber now knows ;-)


That kind of pump (design from 1980) has a reservoir, typically a metal
sphere with an air filled rubber balloon inside. A pressure switch
connects the pump when pressure is low, disconnect when high. Thus, the
pressure oscillates.

I think there is a design that couples a pump and an inverter, running
continuously, that keeps a constant pressure. But runs non stop. If the
water flow will be constant, it is a good alternative.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 4:42 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> I don't think the relief valve in the water heater "wants" to open
>> in all but extreme cases.  I don't think it is designed for "multiple
>> applications".
>
> Oh, those I have seen can certainly be used often. Mine has a little lever I
> can move with my finger and see water come out.

Yes, I can do that, as well. But, I'm not sure they are "specified"
with multiple uses in mind. It's (here) an *exception* for a water heater
to need to vent in that manner.

And, if it decides that was "once too often" and decides to fail, you
are (here) left without domestic water (unless you can isolate the
water heater from the cold inlet AND hot outlet connections).

Our (tank) water heaters also have a drain at the bottom. One
should periodically flush the tank to get rid of accumulating sediment.
But, the same hazard applies: if the valve decides that you've
opened it one too many times and refuses to reseal, completely,
you've got a persistent water leak.

> That kind of pump (design from 1980) has a reservoir, typically a metal sphere
> with an air filled rubber balloon inside. A pressure switch connects the pump
> when pressure is low, disconnect when high. Thus, the pressure oscillates.

That's similar to how the expansion tanks are designed, here (though without
the switch/sensor). The tank (metal) is sealed. A bladder separates the
dry compartment from the wet. The user pressurizes the dry compartment
(with air) to reflect the nominal water pressure. Any increases in
pressure on the wet side (from the expansion of water as heated) force
the dry side to be compressed, providing more volume on the wet side.

> I think there is a design that couples a pump and an inverter, running
> continuously, that keeps a constant pressure. But runs non stop. If the water
> flow will be constant, it is a good alternative.

It is interesting to see how different places approach these "utilities".
In parts of MX, water is *delivered* (via a truck) to a storage tank
mounted high on your residence (roof). Gravity feed so there's a limit
to the sort of pressure you expect.

And, more importantly, a limit to the amount of water you have available!
(I like REALLY long, hot showers so always decline invitations to visit
friends, there. "Oh, you can bathe in the ocean and a sponge bath to remove
all of the SALT!" NoThankYouVeryMuch. I left "summer camp" decades ago! :> )

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:23:01 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

> This:
>
> <https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired>
>
> implements your solution -- but at the point-of-use end of the line.
>
> *If* you have (or can get) power, there, then I suspect it may be a
> more adaptable approach to the problem. I.e., sense the temperature
> at the point-of-use and use that to control the pump located *there*
> (instead of trying to signal a pump located at the water heater).

OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
a rebuilt pump with only the temp sensor included and two remote controls, white and brown. I've been over the site and can't find any new
pumps with accessories. I expect a time will come when Grundfos/Watts comes out with a remote system for pump control, but they seem pretty
late to implement it.
Mikek

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
> site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,

Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn't go looking to research other
offerings.

How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just "packaging"?

I.e., if you put the "smarts" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
capabilities?

[I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
to implement. OTOH, those devices could just be electrically operated
valves with a recirculation pump at the water heater (I already have
a network drop, there, so would have to add more at each sink/shower/etc.)]

> a rebuilt pump with only the temp sensor included and two remote controls,

Yeah, it looks to be a step above "garage shop". :<

> white and brown. I've been over the site and can't find any new pumps with
> accessories. I expect a time will come when Grundfos/Watts comes out with a
> remote system for pump control, but they seem pretty late to implement it.

I've been waiting for "quality" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the "manual"
valves).

And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
(the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> > OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
> > site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
> Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn't go looking to research other
> offerings.
>
> How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just "packaging"?

It senses the temperature at the farthest sink and turns the pump on or off.
The others have a thermal valve that closes to stop recirculation, but it does not shut off the pump.
This could be done with a temp sensor at the sink and wiring or an RF link back to the magic black box that
controls operation of the pump.

>
> I.e., if you put the "smarts" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
> pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
> capabilities?

Uhm, not sure you explained that right, but yes, there is a way to control the operation of the pump by the temperature of the water at the sink.

>
> [I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
> point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
> to implement.

I'm a little suspicious of my kitchen sink, it is only 6-1/2 ft from the water heater, but
it takes 0.87 gallons to get hot water, So, I'm not sure water the pipe route is.

OTOH, those devices could just be electrically operated
> valves with a recirculation pump at the water heater (I already have
> a network drop, there, so would have to add more at each sink/shower/etc.)]
> > a rebuilt pump with only the temp sensor included and two remote controls,
> Yeah, it looks to be a step above "garage shop". :<

> > white and brown. I've been over the site and can't find any new pumps with
> > accessories. I expect a time will come when Grundfos/Watts comes out with a
> > remote system for pump control, but they seem pretty late to implement it.
> I've been waiting for "quality" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
> that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the "manual"
> valves).
>
> And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
> (the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
> during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

[Lamont Cranston]

The price is right, the amperage is not right for most home wiring, the safety and quality have to be questioned.
But at $2.87 with free shipping for a 3000 watt heater... :-)
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/8_HOPS6CbrM
If I had any use for it I'd waste $3.
Mikek

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 8:58 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
>>> OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
>>> site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
>> Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn't go looking to research other
>> offerings.
>>
>> How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just "packaging"?
>
> It senses the temperature at the farthest sink and turns the pump on or off.
> The others have a thermal valve that closes to stop recirculation, but it does not shut off the pump.
> This could be done with a temp sensor at the sink and wiring or an RF link back to the magic black box that
> controls operation of the pump.

Yes, my point was if you built a block diagram of *both* solutions,
would there be any real differences? is it *just* about "location
of components"?

>> I.e., if you put the "smarts" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
>> pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
>> capabilities?
>
> Uhm, not sure you explained that right, but yes, there is a way to control the operation of the pump by the temperature of the water at the sink.

I.e., instead of having the "device" at the heater (with all of its
smarts, rf link, etc.), imagine moving the smarts and pump to the "sink".
Has anything changed, other than the location?

>> [I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
>> point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
>> to implement.
>
> I'm a little suspicious of my kitchen sink, it is only 6-1/2 ft from the water heater, but
> it takes 0.87 gallons to get hot water, So, I'm not sure water the pipe route is.

Our water heater is sort-of centrally located. But, the "loads"
go off in different directions.

The plans for the house don't show how the water was routed
so I can't assume anything (without deliberate measurement).

Of course, the pipes are under the slab so can't be visually
examined. And, not insulated so heavily affected by the
soil and slab temperatures. (e.g., no cold water in summer!)

>> I've been waiting for "quality" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
>> that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the "manual"
>> valves).
>>
>> And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
>> (the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
>> during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)
>
> Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
> it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
> flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
> would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

Sorry, different application. I plan on installing "shut off" valves at
the water entrance to the residence (i.e., shut off ALL the water if you
detect a leak).

Thus, you have to decide what the "safe" condition should be -- err on
the side of preventing a leak (in the absence of power) *or* err on
the side of allowing water to flow DESPITE a leak (consider a residence
that is only occupied for a few months out of the year).

[Or, consider a malicious actor turning off power to the residence
KNOWING how the valve will behave in that condition.]

[Don Y]

"If it SOUNDS too good to be true..."

We've been looking for a *hand* mixer (I've finally convinced SWMBO
that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
the only one who uses the damn thing!).

Amusing to see these "no name" brands advertising *600*W motors...
who think The Masses will appreciate that it is "all copper".

"Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That's really important!
The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors..."

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 11:55:20 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 8:58 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> > On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> >>> OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
> >>> site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
> >> Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn't go looking to research other
> >> offerings.
> >>
> >> How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just "packaging"?
> >
> > It senses the temperature at the farthest sink and turns the pump on or off.
> > The others have a thermal valve that closes to stop recirculation, but it does not shut off the pump.
> > This could be done with a temp sensor at the sink and wiring or an RF link back to the magic black box that
> > controls operation of the pump.
> Yes, my point was if you built a block diagram of *both* solutions,
> would there be any real differences? is it *just* about "location
> of components"?
> >> I.e., if you put the "smarts" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
> >> pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
> >> capabilities?
> >
> > Uhm, not sure you explained that right, but yes, there is a way to control the operation of the pump by the temperature of the water at the sink.
> I.e., instead of having the "device" at the heater (with all of its
> smarts, rf link, etc.), imagine moving the smarts and pump to the "sink".
> Has anything changed, other than the location?

I don't think there is any difference. But you would need a temperature sensor and magic box to control the pump and
is you have a thermal valve it would not be used. I am curious how the pump at the water heater affects the flow rate.
I have not read any complaints about reduced flow rate, so I suspet it is minimal.

> >> [I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
> >> point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
> >> to implement.
> >
> > I'm a little suspicious of my kitchen sink, it is only 6-1/2 ft from the water heater, but
> > it takes 0.87 gallons to get hot water, So, I'm not sure water the pipe route is.

> Our water heater is sort-of centrally located. But, the "loads"
> go off in different directions.
>
> The plans for the house don't show how the water was routed
> so I can't assume anything (without deliberate measurement).
>
> Of course, the pipes are under the slab so can't be visually
> examined. And, not insulated so heavily affected by the
> soil and slab temperatures. (e.g., no cold water in summer!)

Same here, on a slab. Florida.

> >> I've been waiting for "quality" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
> >> that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the "manual"
> >> valves).

Is that for flood protection?

> >>
> >> And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
> >> (the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
> >> during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)
> >
> > Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
> > it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
> > flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
> > would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

> Sorry, different application. I plan on installing "shut off" valves at
> the water entrance to the residence (i.e., shut off ALL the water if you
> detect a leak).

I just lift the cover over my water meter and shut it off. I have a buddy that got a whopping water bill one month,
but didn't see any water in his yard. He end up poking around with a rod until he found a soft spot , dug it up and found the break.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 12:07:02 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 9:42 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> > The price is right, the amperage is not right for most home wiring, the safety and quality have to be questioned.
> > But at $2.87 with free shipping for a 3000 watt heater... :-)
> > https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/8_HOPS6CbrM
> > If I had any use for it I'd waste $3.
> "If it SOUNDS too good to be true..."

Other sellers have it at $60, must be Red isn't selling, so it is discounted! :-)

>
> We've been looking for a *hand* mixer (I've finally convinced SWMBO
> that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
> the only one who uses the damn thing!).

If you have the Kitchen Aid mixer, take it apart and regrease it, We did that 10 years ago and passed it on to our daughter.

>
> Amusing to see these "no name" brands advertising *600*W motors...
> who think The Masses will appreciate that it is "all copper".
>
> "Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That's really important!
> The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors..."

:-)

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 10:08 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
>> I.e., instead of having the "device" at the heater (with all of its
>> smarts, rf link, etc.), imagine moving the smarts and pump to the "sink".
>> Has anything changed, other than the location?
>
> I don't think there is any difference. But you would need a temperature sensor
> and magic box to control the pump and is you have a thermal valve it would not be used.

Yes. I'm assuming there's a magic box regardless. It's just the
amount and type of magic that's up for debate.

> I am curious how the pump at the water heater affects the flow rate.
> I have not read any complaints about reduced flow rate, so I suspet it is minimal.

Dunno. I suspect you could form an equivalence *electrical* model.
But, without any specifics...

E.g., the instant hot water devices that I mentioned have a dreadfully
low output rate. If that was piped into a (high!) pressure water
line, would any of the water actually *mix*?

>>>> I've been waiting for "quality" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
>>>> that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the "manual"
>>>> valves).
>
> Is that for flood protection?

Yes. But, also to protect the hoses connecting the appliances
to the water supply. E.g., we habitually turn off the water
valves "on the wall" when the appliances aren't in use just
to keep the hoses from having to cope with that pressure
while *not* in use.

The "main" valve I mentioned is intended to protect the house.

Anything that could result in unintended water flow. E.g., the
neighbor's dogs once broke their irrigation system. Water gushing
out at whatever rate the 1/2 copper pipe could support.

Of course, THEY were at work, at the time. And, yours truly wasn't
going to risk climbing over the wall and dealing with the dogs
just to save them some money (and a soaked yard -- as well as two
soaked dogs!)

Here, the fill line to the guest bathroom ruptured one evening.
Thankfully, I was able to catch it before it made a mess of
everything.

Imagine if you're "away" -- possibly for MONTHS (a neighbor just
left for their "summer home", today. We'll see them again in
October. I know they don't shut off the water main because
their plantings wouldn't see any water in their absence!)

>>>> And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
>>>> (the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
>>>> during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)
>>>
>>> Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
>>> it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
>>> flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
>>> would be no mixing of hot and cold water.
>
>> Sorry, different application. I plan on installing "shut off" valves at
>> the water entrance to the residence (i.e., shut off ALL the water if you
>> detect a leak).
>
> I just lift the cover over my water meter and shut it off. I have a buddy that got a whopping water bill one month,
> but didn't see any water in his yard. He end up poking around with a rod until he found a soft spot , dug it up and found the break.

I want this to act unattended. Either because the house is unoccupied
*or* because the occupant isn't savvy enough to see there's a problem
(until its too late).

Our shutoff (at the meter) is frozen "on". I *might* be able to
move it the quarter turn to "off". But, I also might break
the sumabitch in the process. If it's *after* the meter, then
it would be my dime!

So, I installed a ball valve *at* the house which I use to
MANUALLY shut off the "loads". There are two more, downstream
from that, to shut off the house and the yard, respectively.
But, I'd like to automate these and rely on the manual valves
just as a last resort (or, when servicing the system)

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 10:12 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
>> We've been looking for a *hand* mixer (I've finally convinced SWMBO
>> that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
>> the only one who uses the damn thing!).
>
> If you have the Kitchen Aid mixer, take it apart and regrease it, We did that 10 years ago and passed it on to our daughter.

The *stand* mixer works fine. It's the *hand* mixer that's on
its last leg.

I need one that has adequate "oompf" to deal with some of the
thicker batters that I make. *And*, high enough speed to
be able to whip the cream for the ice cream, cheesecake, etc.

The existing unit fails on both counts.

>> Amusing to see these "no name" brands advertising *600*W motors...
>> who think The Masses will appreciate that it is "all copper".
>>
>> "Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That's really important!
>> The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors..."
>
> :-)

(sigh) It's getting hard to sort out who the sleazeballs are
and who actually sells "good value". I've had several bad
experiences with Amazon and eBay, lately. In each case,
a trip to the post office/UPS to make the return. Plus, a
week lost waiting for something that you're just going to return!

[Dean Hoffman]

Consumer Reports has some hand mixer ratings.
Breville Handy Mix Scraper BHM800SILUSC Score 83. $130
KitchenAid Architect KHM7210 7-Speed Mixer Score 75. $50
Cuisinart HM-8GRP1 Mixer Score 75. $80
The top one had a 5 outta 5 score for mixing chocolate chip cookie dough.
The other two scored 4 outta 5.

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 11:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> Consumer Reports has some hand mixer ratings.
> Breville Handy Mix Scraper BHM800SILUSC Score 83. $130
> KitchenAid Architect KHM7210 7-Speed Mixer Score 75. $50
> Cuisinart HM-8GRP1 Mixer Score 75. $80
> The top one had a 5 outta 5 score for mixing chocolate chip cookie dough.
> The other two scored 4 outta 5.

But I'm not making chocolate chip cookies! :>

I find all sorts of "reviews" and "ratings". But,
that doesn't really tell me how they will perform
on the sorts of things that *I* make.

I've been looking at rated power (W) to give a
rough idea as to how *thick* the batter they'd be
able to handle.

But, you also need to see (hear?) how they
perform at low and high speeds as I'm sure
the speed is just governed by winding
selection and not a genuine mechanical
transmission.

I also look at the style of "beaters" they use
(not interested in dough hooks; the big hobart
will address those needs). I'm not fond of the
"wire" varieties. And, nothing plastic/rubber
coated.

Likewise, as few plastic parts as possible.
(I looked at the Braun but the mounting ends of
the beaters seem to be made of molded plastic :< )
The beater-ejector being something that I'd like
to see first-hand to get a "feel" for...

And, whether they have fancy digital controls
that are likely to shit the bed in the future
and prove impossible to repair.

I was curious that looking for "commercial"
mixers turns up all *stick* immersion mixers (!).
So, have to think why/if that might be a better
option.

Meanwhile, I just rethink what I'm going to make
to not require that sort of mixing action (e.g.,
I "still froze" the ice cream I made yesterday
instead of whipping it)

[Somehow it feels immoral to buy several different
models with the intent of returning at least most of
them!]

[Dean Hoffman]

Well, corded variable speed electric drills are cheap. I'm too lazy to make my own stuff.
Thank goodness for microwave ovens.

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 12:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>> [Somehow it feels immoral to buy several different
>> models with the intent of returning at least most of
>> them!]
>
> Well, corded variable speed electric drills are cheap.

I gave that some serious consideration! But, figured SWMBO would
throw a fit if she saw me *baking* with POWER TOOLS! :> She
doesn't seem to appreciate the duality... <frown>

> I'm too lazy to make my own stuff.

SWMBO is, as well! <frown> But, is very appreciative of
the stuff I *do* make (I don't eat any of this -- except
the ice cream... yum!). So, it's a relatively small price
to pay -- though continually *increasing*! (WTF?)

> Thank goodness for microwave ovens.

I actually only use the microwave to reheat tea (the brits
are probably shitting themselves over that! :> ). Baked
goods are the most demanding (cuz I make such large batches).
Tonight will be a batch of (400) Benne Wafers. But, I can
mix them with just a wooden spoon.

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/ANTWW7TGJE6RNBEG55BMZFKKVA.jpg&w=860>

*I* could likely live with just a hotplate. Or, a small
toaster oven (I tend to eat *one* thing at a time; not a
plateful of different food groups!)

[Tabby]

Aluminium is cheaper & does show up in chinese motors, & even mains leads.

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 20:33:57 UTC, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> Does anyone here have a recirculating pump to provide instant hot water to a faucet. I was looking putting at a heater under my kitchen sink, but decided it took more room than I was willing to give up. Then I started looking at the recirculating pumps, that use the cold water pipe as a return for the hot water that gets pumped to the faucet. If you don't know, a little description may be helpful. The common installation has a thermal valve at the last faucet of the plumbing run. This thermal valve is between the incoming hot water pipe and the incoming cold water pipe. The pump usually mounted at the water heater, pumps hot water through the hot pipe and back through the cold pipe until the thermal valve senses hot water at the last faucet at which time the valve closes so no more water circulates through the pipes. However the pump continues to run. Many of the pumps have a timer that controls at minimum a 15 minute on, 15 minute off cycle. You can also set it so the pump is off when sleeping or when you're not home if you have regular schedule.
> What are your thoughts about automating this so that when the water reaches a certain temperature at the last sink it sends a signal back to the pump to shut it off. Wireless would be preferable. Because the thermal valve closes at about 90*F I suspect a electric water valve would be need to isolate the hot and cold water when the water has reached the proper temperature. Ditching the thermal valve. I'm bothered by the pump running constantly when not needed. Even though it is only 22 watts. This is small compared to the cost of heating the water that cools in the pipe between the thermal valve cycles. This is somewhat offset by the
> water/sewer cost and the cost to heat the extra water that is run down the drain. It wastes 1.4 gallons waiting for hot water at the shower, and about 1/2 gallon every time you try to get hot water at the kitchen sink. My water/sewer cost is 2.4 cent a gallon and another 3.2 cents to heat a gallon of water. Your thoughts?

> Mikek

returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
> returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.

But, I'm sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

you generally don't want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

[Ricky]

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 4:34 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> But, I'm sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not
> willing to re-plumb their home to make use of a recirculating pump.

Of course not! And, in many types of construction, it's simply not
practical. You gonna jackhammer your slab just to run another length
of pipe?

> Also,
> recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain.

Here (SoAZ), the water has perceived value, even if not significant
monetary value (water is reasonably cheap... for the time being).
SWMBO empties any residual water in the kettle into her "watering
pail" each morning and uses that for plants, the bird bath, etc.

[I just add water and make another pot! :> ]

> In my area
> the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

Ditto. Maybe even a greater multiplier, here (they hide the
costs in all sorts of different fees so it's hard to sort out
what the actual costs of each, are).

There's a half-assed attempt to try to compensate for
irrigation uses (which don't burden the sewer system)
by using the winter months as a benchmark for sewer use
(assumes EVERY CCF of water consumed goes back through the
sewer -- which is already an invalid assumption as you
still need to irrigate in the winter months, swimming pools still
suffer evaporative losses, etc.)

One can install a separate meter for irrigation but that
is at your expense AND incurs a monthly fee to support that
monitoring (despite the fact that YOU monitor and report the
readings, THEY want to charge you for YOUR effort! :-/ )

[Carlos E.R.]

Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 05:43, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 4:34 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
>> But, I'm sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not
>> willing to re-plumb their home to make use of a recirculating pump.
>
> Of course not!  And, in many types of construction, it's simply not
> practical.  You gonna jackhammer your slab just to run another length
> of pipe?
>
>> Also,
>> recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain.
>
> Here (SoAZ), the water has perceived value, even if not significant
> monetary value (water is reasonably cheap... for the time being).
> SWMBO empties any residual water in the kettle into her "watering
> pail" each morning and uses that for plants, the bird bath, etc.
>
> [I just add water and make another pot!  :> ]

We desalinate sea water, so water for the city is not scarce, but not
that cheap. I think it is subsidized for the time being.

>> In my area
>> the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
>
> Ditto.  Maybe even a greater multiplier, here (they hide the
> costs in all sorts of different fees so it's hard to sort out
> what the actual costs of each, are).

Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is
charged in the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

...

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-13 14:17, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2023 4:42 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> I don't think the relief valve in the water heater "wants" to open
>>> in all but extreme cases.  I don't think it is designed for "multiple
>>> applications".
>>
>> Oh, those I have seen can certainly be used often. Mine has a little
>> lever I can move with my finger and see water come out.
>
> Yes, I can do that, as well.  But, I'm not sure they are "specified"
> with multiple uses in mind.  It's (here) an *exception* for a water heater
> to need to vent in that manner.
>
> And, if it decides that was "once too often" and decides to fail, you
> are (here) left without domestic water (unless you can isolate the
> water heater from the cold inlet AND hot outlet connections).
>
> Our (tank) water heaters also have a drain at the bottom.  One
> should periodically flush the tank to get rid of accumulating sediment.
> But, the same hazard applies:  if the valve decides that you've
> opened it one too many times and refuses to reseal, completely,
> you've got a persistent water leak.

I seem to recall the plumber saying to test the valve periodically, so
it is not expected to fail. Anyway, the electric hot water tank itself
is not expected to last :-p

>
>> That kind of pump (design from 1980) has a reservoir, typically a
>> metal sphere with an air filled rubber balloon inside. A pressure
>> switch connects the pump when pressure is low, disconnect when high.
>> Thus, the pressure oscillates.
>
> That's similar to how the expansion tanks are designed, here (though
> without
> the switch/sensor).  The tank (metal) is sealed.  A bladder separates the
> dry compartment from the wet.  The user pressurizes the dry compartment
> (with air) to reflect the nominal water pressure.  Any increases in
> pressure on the wet side (from the expansion of water as heated) force
> the dry side to be compressed, providing more volume on the wet side.

Same thing.

Oh, the sensor is external, coupled to the pump; it is used in houses
using water from a well or reservoir in the cellar, or in tall buildings.

The "air side" has the same type of valve used in car wheels, to inflate
them. With the thing as empty of water as can be, the air side is
inflated to just a bit over the minimum water pressure (the value at
which the pump triggers on).

>
>> I think there is a design that couples a pump and an inverter, running
>> continuously, that keeps a constant pressure. But runs non stop. If
>> the water flow will be constant, it is a good alternative.
>
> It is interesting to see how different places approach these "utilities".
> In parts of MX, water is *delivered* (via a truck) to a storage tank
> mounted high on your residence (roof).  Gravity feed so there's a limit
> to the sort of pressure you expect.

On the roof? Well, yes, we had that at a house my parents had. But that
reservoir was just 300 or 400 litres. There was another reservoir under
the ground, some 14 cubic metres. An automatic pump filled the roof
reservoir as needed.

In this case, there was municipal water, but during the high season it
was a trickle. The big tank was underground precisely to capture that
trickle during the night ;-)

My parents eventually sold that beach place and bought another, which
had instead a single reservoir in the garage, with a pump, metal sphere
and pressure switch. Less hassle. If the municipal pressure was high
enough, the system deactivated automatically (just a non return valve).

>
> And, more importantly, a limit to the amount of water you have available!
> (I like REALLY long, hot showers so always decline invitations to visit
> friends, there.  "Oh, you can bathe in the ocean and a sponge bath to
> remove
> all of the SALT!"  NoThankYouVeryMuch.  I left "summer camp" decades
> ago!  :> )

:-D

We take for normal what we have :-)

This is a dry area. Water came from wells, then from rivers up to 150 Km
away, and now from desalinization of the Mediterranean sea.

Next advancement here will be installing huge solar panels to power them
and thus lower the costs.

Regional right wing politicians want to bring water from other regions,
but the politicians in those regions, all sides, say no way in hell. So,
I guess that's a no, no matter how much they bitch here. Desalinization
it will be :-}

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Ricky]

For a sink, it uses a standard 120V, 15A connection. Who doesn't have that??? Are you talking about some third world country? If they can't power this unit, how could they possibly power a hot water tank? Mine is 240V, 18A.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Carlos E.R.]

Most houses here have a contract that limits total instant power to 3.5
KW. It certainly is not a third world country. You can have more power,
up to 15 KW, but it is significantly more expensive.

Hot water tanks take 1 KW, maybe two if the tank is big. Mine I changed
to take 0.5 KW.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> >I had these pump before. So, a few observations: it only save money for gas water heater. Otherwise, it would be better to have electric heater closer to the faucel. The pump tends to lock up if not in use for long period of time. Suggestion is to run at least a few minutes per day.
> >
> >Regarding cold water pipe recirculation, you would have to be careful about drinking from tap water. Hot water have more bacteria. You don't want to mix up hot and cold pipes.
> I considered using waste water to preheat the cold water coming into
> the water heater. There are gadgets to do that, and our incoming water
> is always cold. But it would be a hassle with decades to pay back.

That's asking for trouble, wastewater is full of crud. A better way is to use an auxiliary uninsulated bladder between the street and heater tank, to store water long enough for it to come up to room temperature, most of the time. You have then reduced the heat loading by about (110-115 oF hot output )- (room temperature) difference x 8 lbs/gal x 1BTU/ (lb oF) x aux tank gallons. Of course, during heating system, the aux tank loads your heating system, but it helps during cooling season which makes no difference to you living in the 19th century.

Hot water is for health purposes non-potable. Elevated temperatures accelerate all kinds of corrosion and leaching mechanisms that contaminate the water. This means that whatever system you use, hot and its cold feed should be isolated with a backflow preventer valve.

The hot water recirculation system is as old as the hills, having been in use for 100 years in commercial and hospitality settings.

On-demand or point-of-use hot water heaters are problematic. For one thing they all have a minimum flow rate requirement to energize the heater, and this is variable and kind of on the high side for most of them, in the 0.5- 1.0 GPM range usually. Modern faucets are mostly flow rate limited to 1.0GPM, so you need to turn the water on 'full blast' to get heat- now how much water is that going to save... Bathtub spigots, at 2.0 GPM shouldn't be a problem, but showers just might be. Then there is the apparently insurmountable issue of scale formation and periodic maintenance. Who needs that?

Nominal 1/2" pipe is a crossection of 0.00136 ft^2 so that a 1 ft length holds 7.5 gal/ ft^3 = 0.010 gallons. A 50' length would only by 0.5 gals, and a wait time of 30 seconds from a 1.0 GPM faucet to flush it. But then that's an eternity for some people.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 13:07, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> On-demand or point-of-use hot water heaters are problematic. For one thing they all have a minimum flow rate requirement to energize the heater, and this is variable and kind of on the high side for most of them, in the 0.5- 1.0 GPM range usually. Modern faucets are mostly flow rate limited to 1.0GPM, so you need to turn the water on 'full blast' to get heat- now how much water is that going to save... Bathtub spigots, at 2.0 GPM shouldn't be a problem, but showers just might be. Then there is the apparently insurmountable issue of scale formation and periodic maintenance. Who needs that?

They are not problematic here. That is, every system has its advantages
and cons.

There is a minimum flow, yes, but that's not a problem with modern
electronically controlled units.

There are two main types here: constant gas flow, or dynamically
controlled to keep a constant water temperature.

Constant gas flow is cheaper. There is a manual regulator. The
temperature changes with the water flow: half water flow, double
temperature. The electronics can run from batteries.

The other is significantly more expensive. The heater needs electricity
for the controller and actuators. It is typically double use: it also
drives the house heating (hot water radiators).

The current generation are called "condenser type". The fumes exhaust is
at almost ambient temperature, so that the water vapor condenses into
water. This type requires that the gas is good quality, and yearly
maintenance, because that water can be acidic and corrosive. But uses
much less gas than "normal" heaters.


Scale formation? I haven't hit that problem yet. Depends on the city, I
guess. They last typically about 15 years, which is about the same for
electric heaters.

Mandatory inspection every 5 years (for every type of gas installation).


It is cheap: my unit spends one butane bottle (13KG) every two months.
Sanitary water only, not condensing, no automatic temperature
regulation, one person.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Fred Bloggs]

That's a different on-demand. There are whole house on-demand but I don't think they work spectacularly well because they usually install several of them. The type you have is good when you only have one or two faucets on it at one time. The modern water heater heater tanks are so good at retaining heat, I don't see any advantage to on-demand when you still have the heat loss problem through long runs of pipe from the heater to point of use. And you can't beat the price when they're a high volume commodity.


>
> --
> Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 2:24 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> It is interesting to see how different places approach these "utilities".
>> In parts of MX, water is *delivered* (via a truck) to a storage tank
>> mounted high on your residence (roof).  Gravity feed so there's a limit
>> to the sort of pressure you expect.
>
> On the roof? Well, yes, we had that at a house my parents had. But that
> reservoir was just 300 or 400 litres. There was another reservoir under the
> ground, some 14 cubic metres. An automatic pump filled the roof reservoir as
> needed.

Ah, that would make more sense! As I've never taken any of my friends
up on their offers to "spend a week by the sea", I'm only surmising what
they have. I've heard reference to "The Water Truck" and "on the roof".
My assumption was that the tank was on the roof but it could also be
that's just how it's filled (save the trouble of having to leave the
vehicle to position hoses, etc.)

> In this case, there was municipal water, but during the high season it was a
> trickle. The big tank was underground precisely to capture that trickle during
> the night ;-)
>
> My parents eventually sold that beach place and bought another, which had
> instead a single reservoir in the garage, with a pump, metal sphere and
> pressure switch. Less hassle. If the municipal pressure was high enough, the
> system deactivated automatically (just a non return valve).
>
>> And, more importantly, a limit to the amount of water you have available!
>> (I like REALLY long, hot showers so always decline invitations to visit
>> friends, there.  "Oh, you can bathe in the ocean and a sponge bath to remove
>> all of the SALT!"  NoThankYouVeryMuch.  I left "summer camp" decades ago!  :> )
>
> :-D
>
> We take for normal what we have :-)

Sadly, yes. I recall, growing up, it was common to "sweep the driveway"
with a hose (instead of a broom). Someone doing that here would promptly
be told to stop (by concerned neighbors).

> This is a dry area. Water came from wells, then from rivers up to 150 Km away,
> and now from desalinization of the Mediterranean sea.

Our water source is ground water, augmented by water from the colorado
river via the Central Arizona Project (CAP) -- a 300+ mile man-made canal
that transports water the length (N-S) of the state.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Arizona_Project>

As water is becoming scarcer (Lakes Mead and Powell are at historic lows),
there is heightened concern over water supplies. In most (AZ) municipalities,
you have to ensure a 100 year water supply (what bank would want to finance
development if the area wouldn't be habitable when the balance comes due?)

Some developers have skirted the law by developing "subdivisions" of *5*
homes (too small for water supply regulations to apply -- even though
they put up a dozen of these developments on the same parcel of land!
(ah, but then it would be 50-100 homes and subject to legal constraints!)
The homeowners purchasing, there, suddenly find themselves without
access to water.

[Seems to me, you'd want to be sure of that before sinking a few hundred
kilobucks into an investment!]

> Next advancement here will be installing huge solar panels to power them and
> thus lower the costs.

That's the logical solution, here, as the Gulf of California is just
~150 miles, as the crow flies, from our southern border. And, we have
an overabundance of sunshine making solar very practical -- esp on such
a large scale.

And, it sidesteps the energy storage issue; you "store" the energy "in" the
desalinated water which is easy to transport and store (no worries of
"oil spills", etc.)

But, this would require a long-term agreement with MX -- and, the US (esp
AZ) is hostile towards their state/peoples...

Finally, someone would want someone ELSE to pay for it!

> Regional right wing politicians want to bring water from other regions, but the
> politicians in those regions, all sides, say no way in hell. So, I guess that's
> a no, no matter how much they bitch here. Desalinization it will be :-}

The real solution is to adjust water usage. I still see people with
natural grass, here. And, swimming pools that lose 6 *ft* of depth to
evaporation, annually (the bigger the pool, the greater the volume).
Of course, *covering* the water cuts down those losses immensely
(and gives you a "heated pool") but that requires 10 minutes of
effort, daily. Far more than most folks are (apparently) willing
to spend!

And, people watering with "spray" irrigation (40% loss).

Of course, growing cotton in the desert is equally brain damaged.

[We've prepared for our citrus to be curtailed by planting smaller
varieties -- less losses to transpiration... less fruit, too! :< ]

But, this part of the country is accustomed to being water wary.
Other parts are going to really find it hard to make the adjustment.
No, you won't be washing your car in your driveway. And, maybe that
lawn is a thing of the past.

Utah has been notorious for being water wasters. Now, I see,
their "Great" Salt Lake is likely to disappear, in a few *years*
(not "generations"). With the downside of exposing lots of
*dried* nasty compounds to wind-blown dispersal in their metro
area. Ooops! Kinda like pissing in your own sink...

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 2:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Here (SoAZ), the water has perceived value, even if not significant
>> monetary value (water is reasonably cheap... for the time being).
>> SWMBO empties any residual water in the kettle into her "watering
>> pail" each morning and uses that for plants, the bird bath, etc.
>>
>> [I just add water and make another pot!  :> ]
>
> We desalinate sea water, so water for the city is not scarce, but not that
> cheap. I think it is subsidized for the time being.

Yes, as I said elsewhere, that's the logical way to go, *here*
(given that we have access to other "cheap" energy resources).

The city already uses "reclaimed" water for irrigation of
municipal properties (parks, etc.). Yet, seems to think they
need not be as scrupulous with *its* use (e.g., watering during
daytime hours) -- likely because they have more than they
can find use for (also golf courses).

It's only a matter of time before we see it introduced to our
domestic water supply.

New construction favors grey water recycling (local irrigation).
But, its one of those things that is hard to retrofit to a home
unless the floorplan is amenable.

>>> In my area
>>> the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
>>
>> Ditto.  Maybe even a greater multiplier, here (they hide the
>> costs in all sorts of different fees so it's hard to sort out
>> what the actual costs of each, are).
>
> Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is charged in
> the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

Many have pools, here, and summer losses (evaporation) would unduly
penalize those folks -- "why am I paying to treat this water when it's
not going down the drain??" Likewise for irrigation the demands of which
greatly increase in the summer months (summer starts in April).

They split out the garbage cost a few years ago -- as a way to add another
"fee" (which can be raised without involving "Water")

[Lamont Cranston]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 8:50:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

> >>> In my area
> >>> the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

> > Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is charged in
> > the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

> They split out the garbage cost a few years ago -- as a way to add another
> "fee" (which can be raised without involving "Water")

Looking at my bill, the sewer charge is 2.05 times the water bill.
Garbage pickup (required by the city) is another $36 a month.
I may be working my way out of the pump, I'm looking a a single basin sink,
this will move the drain piping away from one side of the cabinet. With that freed up
space, I would have room for a water heater under the sink. Already have electricity.
This doesn't take care of the showers, but this whole thing started with me wanting
instant hot water at the kitchen sink and then expanded from there.
Now I'm looking at a new sink, faucet, soap dispenser, drain, drop in cutting board,
and in sink draining rack. It is expanding in price.

[Lamont Cranston]

Sheesh, the nice sink I am looking at, is sold by,
Business Name: ChangshashiDuoziMuxingrenXiaoshouYouxianGongsi
Makes me wonder!
https://www.amazon.com/HOROW-Workstation-Topmount-Stainless-Accessories/dp/B0BX2L7T64?ref_=v_sp_product_dpx
And zero reviews.
Mikek

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 05:07:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
>> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >I had these pump before. So, a few observations: it only save money for gas water heater. Otherwise, it would be better to have electric heater closer to the faucel. The pump tends to lock up if not in use for long period of time. Suggestion is to run at least a few minutes per day.
>> >
>> >Regarding cold water pipe recirculation, you would have to be careful about drinking from tap water. Hot water have more bacteria. You don't want to mix up hot and cold pipes.
>> I considered using waste water to preheat the cold water coming into
>> the water heater. There are gadgets to do that, and our incoming water
>> is always cold. But it would be a hassle with decades to pay back.
>
>That's asking for trouble, wastewater is full of crud. A better way is to use an auxiliary uninsulated bladder between the street and heater tank, to store water long enough for it to come up to room temperature, most of the time.

Where would the heat come from?

> You have then reduced the heat loading by about (110-115 oF hot output )- (room temperature) difference x 8 lbs/gal x 1BTU/ (lb oF) x aux tank gallons. Of course, during heating system, the aux tank loads your heating system, but it helps during cooling season which makes no difference to you living in the 19th century.

We don't have a cooling season. We leave the heat on all year.

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 8:25 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 8:50:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
>
>>>>> In my area
>>>>> the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
>
>>> Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is charged in
>>> the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.
>
>> They split out the garbage cost a few years ago -- as a way to add another
>> "fee" (which can be raised without involving "Water")
>
> Looking at my bill, the sewer charge is 2.05 times the water bill.
> Garbage pickup (required by the city) is another $36 a month.

I think ours is $14. When we moved here, we had TWICE *weekly* pickups.
And, you could put *anything* on the curb (furniture, tires, etc.)
(used) Motor oil was picked up and poured into a tank on the truck.

Over time, that settled in at one pickup per week, twice annual
"bulk" pickups. Hazardous materials (oil, electronics, tires, etc.)
were dropped off at several spots around town. Recyclables (paper,
tin, cans, etc.) bi-weekly pickups.

Now, you have to drop off glass at one of a dozen sites around
town AND it needs to have been washed prior to dropoff -- did I
mention water is a scarce resource? (so, folks just toss it in
with their trash)

> I may be working my way out of the pump, I'm looking a a single basin sink,
> this will move the drain piping away from one side of the cabinet. With that freed up
> space, I would have room for a water heater under the sink. Already have electricity.

I added several circuits in the kitchen. Dishwasher, frig, disposal,
microwave, exhaust fan, etc. all compete for limited power (in addition
to the countertop circuits -- no, why would I want the microwave to eat
up that resource??)

The problem with hot water heating is you can't easily control
usage. You'd hate, for example, to turn on the disposal and pop
a breaker because the water heater *happened* to be on, at the time.
Or, the dishwasher was preheating water for a cycle...

> This doesn't take care of the showers, but this whole thing started with me wanting
> instant hot water at the kitchen sink and then expanded from there.

My shower solution is just to let water run down the drain while I'm
gettin' nekid. Wasteful, yes. But, so are 30 minute showers! :>

> Now I'm looking at a new sink, faucet, soap dispenser, drain, drop in cutting board,
> and in sink draining rack. It is expanding in price.

Projects expand to consume all of the time and money available! :>

Today is a "play" day; off to the auction to see what other shit^H^H^H
good stuff I can bring home to clutter up the house! :-/

And, being a play day, ice cream for breakfast! (Oooo, this is SO good!
Butter pecan -- 1/4 pound of butter in a quart batch!)

[Don Y]

That's Chinese for "Acme".

[Ricky]

It must take forever to heat a tank of water. Sounds rather dysfunctional. My microwave oven uses more than 0.5 kW and it is some 40 years old. A hair dryer uses 1.44 kW. I guess you have to turn off all sorts of things to use a stove. But then maybe you have gas. No, if that were true, you would have a gas hot water heater.

Sorry, this is not very easy for me to digest. The water uses the same amount of energy to heat up if you do it at 0.5 kW, or 5 kW. I just can't picture how it can be practical at 0.5 kW. I can take a shower and have a tank full of hot water in an hour. At 500 watts, it takes 10 hours.

I just can't picture how this is useful. Ok, not third world. Maybe world 2.5.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Tabby]

Years ago I saw flats each on a 5A feed. Residents had problems. Solution was to mark current draw on every plug & not exceed 5A total. Perfectly doable, though hardly ideal.

[Carlos E.R.]

No, the system I talk about is whole house on demand, gas fired. It is
very common here. One per home, typically a kitchen and two bathrooms.

Granted, for simultaneous use it better be the dynamically controlled
expensive type or the temperature will fluctuate a lot.

The advantage is price, and endless hot water.

I have never seen here a gas fired hot water tank, only electric.
Instant on demand, electric powered, is very rare, I have never seen
anyone use it; only seen it at one hardware store.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Actually, it takes about four hours, the tank has 50 litres. Runs on a
timer during the night, if I activate it. I prefer the gas fired on
demand hot water system (yes, I have both systems). There is only one
person in the house, I don't need the hot water tank to reheat till next
day.

> I just can't picture how this is useful. Ok, not third world. Maybe world 2.5.
>

No, you simply are wasteful and think the rest of the world runs the
same way :-p

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Lamont Cranston]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 10:12:02 PM UTC-5, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> No, you simply are wasteful and think the rest of the world runs the
> same way :-p
>
> --
> Cheers, Carlos.

Carlos you are correct, we live in a country of abundance, we can get almost anything we want in a few days.
We have everything at our fingertips.
We have time and money to waste and there is no doubt we do waste both. Just look on Youtube for things we GET to waste our time and money on!
My wife is from a 3rd world country, but has been here over 40 years, she did take on some of my wasteful ways over the years although was always frugal. But now in retirement, I notice she is reverting back to more frugal ways, worried about water use, keeping heating/cooling costs low, saving rain water in buckets, and having a garden to grow some food. She picks up items others throw away, because she knows with a little care,
she or I can fix it and she will sell it to someone, she has a large network of people that she knows. A few days ago she wheeled home a 22" self propelled lawn mower. It had a plastic guard that was broken, I said I wasn't going to spend any time fixing the plastic if it was any trouble to start, "darn it" it started on the 3rd pull. a few sq inches of scrap aluminum and 8 woods screws and the plastic was fixed.
Mikek

[Ricky]

LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGPMadwqPKQ

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Ricky]

Wow! I'm sorry, but that's clearly not first world. Or something is wrong with the math. 4 hours of 500W is 2 kWh, or 7.2 million joules. Divide by 4.186 (water specific heat) to get 1.7 million g°C, or 1,700 liter°C. That's around 34 °C for 50 liters. So room temperature to 130°F or about 55°C. Is your hot water room temperature when you finish your shower? That's not a very comfortable shower.

Reminds me of Puerto Rico, where they don't feel a need for hot water. They are happy with tepid water or just room temperature. The water from the street is not cold either, most places. Cold is not a word that is often used.

> > I just can't picture how this is useful. Ok, not third world. Maybe world 2.5.
> >
> No, you simply are wasteful and think the rest of the world runs the
> same way :-p

Yes, just like driving cars and using electric lights is wasteful.

Yep, third world. I like hot showers, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 8:38 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 10:12:02 PM UTC-5, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> No, you simply are wasteful and think the rest of the world runs the same
>> way :-p
>

> Carlos you are correct, we live in a country of abundance, we can get almost
> anything we want in a few days.

> We have everything at our fingertips.

> We have time and money to waste and there is no doubt we do waste both. Just
> look on Youtube for things we GET to waste our time and money on!

> My wife is from a 3rd world country, but has been here over 40 years, she
> did take on some of my wasteful ways over the years although was always
> frugal. But now in retirement, I notice she is reverting back to more frugal
> ways, worried about water use, keeping heating/cooling costs low, saving
> rain water in buckets, and having a garden to grow some food. She picks up
> items others throw away, because she knows with a little care, she or I can
> fix it and she will sell it to someone, she has a large network of people
> that she knows. A few days ago she wheeled home a 22" self propelled lawn
> mower. It had a plastic guard that was broken, I said I wasn't going to
> spend any time fixing the plastic if it was any trouble to start, "darn it"
> it started on the 3rd pull. a few sq inches of scrap aluminum and 8 woods
> screws and the plastic was fixed.

Sadly, most folks simply don't want "old" things -- regardless of
whether or not they work, show no signs of wear, etc.

A neighbor gave me one of these, yesterday:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/266159332945>
dog had chewed the power cords. What's that, an hour to repair
(at zero cost as you just cut the "modular" end off a power cord
and wire that in place of the damaged cord)?

[I made a point of selecting a very long cord as power tools
invariably have cords that *should* be a little longer]

When I went to return it (2 hours later), she told me to keep it; she'd
already bought a replacement (before she gave me the broken one).
Now, I'll have to try to find someone who will want it as I've already
got 3 hammer drills (various sizes).

I used to repair (large) *discarded* LCD TVs. But, quickly ran out of
people to give them to! Ditto computer monitors. (I now have ~30 that
I've rescued and repaired... it's interesting just how many you can
put to use when they are "free"! :-/ Sadly, I need a *small* one,
with VESA mount, and can't seem to find anything like that.)

I repaired/refurbished electric wheelchairs for a time (too many of
them being donated to us and then scrapped). I managed to find homes
for *two*. And, took two for myself (using one in my automation project,
the other I converted into an electric wheelbarrow). And, all the rest
(about one-and-a-half per month) just into the tip.

<https://marcsmobility.com/permobil-m300-powered-wheelchair-seat-lift-tilt-recline-legs-2544.html>

One of mine is silver, the other blue. And, have the upscale controller
(bluetooth, color LCD, phone charger, headlights, turn signals, seat
memory, etc.) and seating system (Corpus 3G w/ ROHO)

(This is almost understandable... the folks who need chairs likely need
someone to service them, call on when thy have a problem, "fit" them,
etc. And, often have insurance to cover those costs -- so where's
the incentive to save?)

When.if the apocalypse movies come to be, there'll not be a shortage
of "stuff" to exploit for quite some time! :<

[Carlos E.R.]

Well, if it starts at 20°C then in 4 hours it goes to 54°C, which is hot
enough to burn the skin. If the tank was not fully spent, it goes up to
70°C, which is about the max temp I set.

(room temp typically 20°C)


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Wow, garbaging a drill just because a bad cable.

Well, it makes sense if she doesn't know how to repair it herself, and a
repair shop is too expensive.

At a beach house the clothes washing machine broke down. The intake
valve, I knew. My guests, from the other side of the pond, said never
mind, we'll go to a laundry shop for a few days. I said, nah, I'll call
the repair man, it is only a valve. I called him, he charged just 35€.

My guests were surprised at how cheap that was. Well, on Madrid it might
be 50€ or 75€, they charge only for coming along.


Yes, of course, I could have repaired it myself, but would have taken
days, finding the correct valve, and tinkering to open the old machine,
and hurting my old back.

> I used to repair (large) *discarded* LCD TVs.  But, quickly ran out of
> people to give them to!  Ditto computer monitors.  (I now have ~30 that
> I've rescued and repaired... it's interesting just how many you can
> put to use when they are "free"!  :-/   Sadly, I need a *small* one,
> with VESA mount, and can't seem to find anything like that.)

I recogn I garbaged an LG TV recently. They asked too much, they said
they need to replace the entire power supply module.

I haven't done much electronic repairs since the 90's... My job path
didn't go that way. So my few repair skills are too rusty.

> I repaired/refurbished electric wheelchairs for a time (too many of
> them being donated to us and then scrapped).  I managed to find homes
> for *two*.  And, took two for myself (using one in my automation project,
> the other I converted into an electric wheelbarrow).  And, all the rest
> (about one-and-a-half per month) just into the tip.
>
> <https://marcsmobility.com/permobil-m300-powered-wheelchair-seat-lift-tilt-recline-legs-2544.html>
>
> One of mine is silver, the other blue.  And, have the upscale controller
> (bluetooth, color LCD, phone charger, headlights, turn signals, seat
> memory, etc.) and seating system (Corpus 3G w/ ROHO)
>
> (This is almost understandable... the folks who need chairs likely need
> someone to service them, call on when thy have a problem, "fit" them,
> etc.  And, often have insurance to cover those costs -- so where's
> the incentive to save?)

I knew of a chap around here who made rich repairing chairs and
equipment for disabled people. He is an invalid himself. I believe he
now hires repairmen, or rather he works as intermediary between invalids
all around the country and the repairmen he knows, arranging the
shipments. He knows many invalids, and knows where to find repairmen, I
think it is.

>
> When.if the apocalypse movies come to be, there'll not be a shortage
> of "stuff" to exploit for quite some time!  :<
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 14:34, Don Y wrote:

> On 3/14/2023 2:24 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> It is interesting to see how different places approach these
>>> "utilities".
>>> In parts of MX, water is *delivered* (via a truck) to a storage tank
>>> mounted high on your residence (roof).  Gravity feed so there's a limit
>>> to the sort of pressure you expect.
>>
>> On the roof? Well, yes, we had that at a house my parents had. But
>> that reservoir was just 300 or 400 litres. There was another reservoir
>> under the ground, some 14 cubic metres. An automatic pump filled the
>> roof reservoir as needed.
>
> Ah, that would make more sense!  As I've never taken any of my friends
> up on their offers to "spend a week by the sea", I'm only surmising what
> they have.  I've heard reference to "The Water Truck" and "on the roof".
> My assumption was that the tank was on the roof but it could also be
> that's just how it's filled (save the trouble of having to leave the
> vehicle to position hoses, etc.)

I think here, for those houses that are off the water network, the truck
demands that they pour the water down, by gravity.

>> In this case, there was municipal water, but during the high season it
>> was a trickle. The big tank was underground precisely to capture that
>> trickle during the night ;-)
>>
>> My parents eventually sold that beach place and bought another, which
>> had instead a single reservoir in the garage, with a pump, metal
>> sphere and pressure switch. Less hassle. If the municipal pressure was
>> high enough, the system deactivated automatically (just a non return
>> valve).
>>
>>> And, more importantly, a limit to the amount of water you have
>>> available!
>>> (I like REALLY long, hot showers so always decline invitations to visit
>>> friends, there.  "Oh, you can bathe in the ocean and a sponge bath to
>>> remove
>>> all of the SALT!"  NoThankYouVeryMuch.  I left "summer camp" decades
>>> ago!  :> )
>>
>> :-D
>>
>> We take for normal what we have :-)
>
> Sadly, yes.  I recall, growing up, it was common to "sweep the driveway"
> with a hose (instead of a broom).  Someone doing that here would promptly
> be told to stop (by concerned neighbors).

Yes, we should do that here as well. We typically "mind our own
business". There are too many houses with pools (when the beach is
meters away), or have a well kept grass garden.

>
>> This is a dry area. Water came from wells, then from rivers up to 150
>> Km away, and now from desalinization of the Mediterranean sea.
>
> Our water source is ground water, augmented by water from the colorado
> river via the Central Arizona Project (CAP) -- a 300+ mile man-made canal
> that transports water the length (N-S) of the state.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Arizona_Project>

I might have seen some documentary.

>
> As water is becoming scarcer (Lakes Mead and Powell are at historic lows),
> there is heightened concern over water supplies.  In most (AZ)
> municipalities,
> you have to ensure a 100 year water supply (what bank would want to finance
> development if the area wouldn't be habitable when the balance comes due?)
>
> Some developers have skirted the law by developing "subdivisions" of *5*
> homes (too small for water supply regulations to apply -- even though
> they put up a dozen of these developments on the same parcel of land!
> (ah, but then it would be 50-100 homes and subject to legal constraints!)
> The homeowners purchasing, there, suddenly find themselves without
> access to water.

{chuckle}

>
> [Seems to me, you'd want to be sure of that before sinking a few hundred
> kilobucks into an investment!]

Here there was a spree of building golf courses with lots of houses
around to sell mostly to British folk.

>> Next advancement here will be installing huge solar panels to power
>> them and thus lower the costs.
>
> That's the logical solution, here, as the Gulf of California is just
> ~150 miles, as the crow flies, from our southern border.  And, we have
> an overabundance of sunshine making solar very practical -- esp  on such
> a large scale.
>
> And, it sidesteps the energy storage issue; you "store" the energy "in" the
> desalinated water which is easy to transport and store (no worries of
> "oil spills", etc.)
>
> But, this would require a long-term agreement with MX -- and, the US (esp
> AZ) is hostile towards their state/peoples...

Tsk, tsk...

>
> Finally, someone would want someone ELSE to pay for it!

:-D

>> Regional right wing politicians want to bring water from other
>> regions, but the politicians in those regions, all sides, say no way
>> in hell. So, I guess that's a no, no matter how much they bitch here.
>> Desalinization it will be :-}
>
> The real solution is to adjust water usage.  I still see people with
> natural grass, here.  And, swimming pools that lose 6 *ft* of depth to
> evaporation, annually (the bigger the pool, the greater the volume).
> Of course, *covering* the water cuts down those losses immensely
> (and gives you a "heated pool") but that requires 10 minutes of
> effort, daily.  Far more than most folks are (apparently) willing
> to spend!
>
> And, people watering with "spray" irrigation (40% loss).

Indeed.

Agricultural production here (Murcia) is high. Lots of sun hours. While
water is cheap, it is very profitable. We export veggies up north to
Germany and around.

But we are now using more water than we have, and complaining we don't
get more water from other regions.

> Of course, growing cotton in the desert is equally brain damaged.
>
> [We've prepared for our citrus to be curtailed by planting smaller
> varieties -- less losses to transpiration... less fruit, too!  :< ]
>
> But, this part of the country is accustomed to being water wary.
> Other parts are going to really find it hard to make the adjustment.
> No, you won't be washing your car in your driveway.  And, maybe that
> lawn is a thing of the past.
>
> Utah has been notorious for being water wasters.  Now, I see,
> their "Great" Salt Lake is likely to disappear, in a few *years*
> (not "generations").  With the downside of exposing lots of
> *dried* nasty compounds to wind-blown dispersal in their metro
> area.  Ooops!  Kinda like pissing in your own sink...

Gosh.

Send the water to the bad water to the sea in trucks :-D

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Fred Bloggs]

I'm not all that familiar with the gas products other than if you need really big capacity on-demand, gas is the way to go. Gas fired hot water tanks are popular add-ons to homes already piped for gas to supply things like furnaces and cooking appliances.

All the heaters, regardless of type, are ON/OFF controllers, meaning they don't modulate the heat source. So of course you're going to have that flow rate dependence of water temperature. You have to go to a storage tank (conventional) system for constant water temperature.
Most modern residential architectural design clusters the plumbing fixtures, either stacked vertically and/or horizontal adjacent rooms, to minimize cost and eliminate problems like long wait times for the hot water. If you have an addition on your house that includes a bathroom and is located something like 50 ft or more from the existing tank, a little 40 gal tank can be installed in a 3 x 3 ft. space, so just add a small closet to the bathroom. Unless you require a really BIG water tank, like 75 gals, I don't see the advantage to going with on-demand. In office buildings or motels/hotels, the plumbing lines run a loooong way, so they absolutely have to recirculate the water to have hot water on tap.

>
> --
> Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

No, not true any longer.

We have instant gas heaters capable of keeping a constant water
temperature. It is an electronic control. Yes, the size of the flame can
be modulated.

Another method is having a small water tank (say, 5 litres) which
circulates with a pump and heats the tap water flow using a heat
exchanger. That little reservoir is heated intermittently.


In Spanish, so use google translate:

<https://www.leroymerlin.es/ideas-y-consejos/como-elegir/como-elegir-calentadores.html>

«In addition, heaters with automatic flame modulation or thermostatic
heaters offer energy savings of around 20% because they control the
flame output via the gas flow rate to match the heat input to the hot
water demand.»


For example, this unit, about 300€:

<https://www.leroymerlin.es/productos/fontaneria/agua-caliente-sanitaria/calentadores-de-agua/calentador-gas-gils-itaca-estanco-nox-12l-gas-butano-85163788.html>



I can not find at the site a section on electric instant heaters, but I
see no problem modulating the electric power with power electronics to
produce a fixed temp.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Fred Bloggs]

Here's one in English:

https://www.e-tankless.com/tankless-concept.php

https://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/

I would research replacement costs of single sourced parts before I bought something like that. If there's no "after market" industry support, I wouldn't touch it.

This is about as cheap as it gets, and requires a 100A circuit, no thanks:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stiebel-Eltron-Tempra-24-Plus-Adv-Flow-Control-and-Self-Modulating-24-kW-4-68-GPM-Residential-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater-Tempra-24-Plus/306745520


>
> --
> Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/15/2023 3:53 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Sadly, most folks simply don't want "old" things -- regardless of
>> whether or not they work, show no signs of wear, etc.
>>
>> A neighbor gave me one of these, yesterday:
>>      <https://www.ebay.com/itm/266159332945>
>> dog had chewed the power cords.  What's that, an hour to repair
>> (at zero cost as you just cut the "modular" end off a power cord
>> and wire that in place of the damaged cord)?
>>
>> [I made a point of selecting a very long cord as power tools
>> invariably have cords that *should* be a little longer]
>>
>> When I went to return it (2 hours later), she told me to keep it; she'd
>> already bought a replacement (before she gave me the broken one).
>> Now, I'll have to try to find someone who will want it as I've already
>> got 3 hammer drills (various sizes).
>
> Wow, garbaging a drill just because a bad cable.
>
> Well, it makes sense if she doesn't know how to repair it herself, and a repair
> shop is too expensive.

I don't know if there are such things as "repair shops", anymore.
Major appliances are usually serviced by "appliance companies"
(third parties) who either have an agreement with the manifacturer
to provide "in warranty" service (billing the manufacturer for
their activities) *or* the homeowner.

The standing joke is: $100 to drive out to your house. This
is probably par for other services (plumber, electrician, etc.).
*Landscapers* will want $150+ to "maintain" your yard (note
that we don't have lawns, here, so there's no *grass* to mow)
and that's just one visit per month... "unskilled" labor.

> At a beach house the clothes washing machine broke down. The intake valve, I
> knew. My guests, from the other side of the pond, said never mind, we'll go to
> a laundry shop for a few days. I said, nah, I'll call the repair man, it is
> only a valve. I called him, he charged just 35€.
>
> My guests were surprised at how cheap that was. Well, on Madrid it might be 50€
> or 75€, they charge only for coming along.

Yes, see above.

> Yes, of course, I could have repaired it myself, but would have taken days,
> finding the correct valve, and tinkering to open the old machine, and hurting
> my old back.

I try to find a balance. Things like TVs/monitors, hammer drills, etc.
are relatively easy. And, as I'm not at risk of *losing* the item
(it was broken when I got it!), there's less pressure to get it done
quickly -- or at all!

OTOH, the blower motor in the furnace was making a lot of noise,
recently (the large squirrel-cage blower is supported solely by
the motor shaft so the bearings see a bit of wear). A new motor
was ~$200 and about an hour of my time. A serviceman would have
pitched replacing the furnace -- to the tune of ~$10K ("Well, we'll
have to replace the A-coil, as well. And, might as well replace
the compressor... BUT, we'll give you a brand new thermostat,
FOR FREE!"

The cooling fan in the compressor failed some years ago. $8 for
a new cap -- and another hour of my time (to drive to the store).

>> I used to repair (large) *discarded* LCD TVs.  But, quickly ran out of
>> people to give them to!  Ditto computer monitors.  (I now have ~30 that
>> I've rescued and repaired... it's interesting just how many you can
>> put to use when they are "free"!  :-/   Sadly, I need a *small* one,
>> with VESA mount, and can't seem to find anything like that.)
>
> I recogn I garbaged an LG TV recently. They asked too much, they said they need
> to replace the entire power supply module.

Well, of course, that's not what they *needed* to do; it's just how
they approach repairs (swap boards). I find a lot of TVs lose
an LDO for a standby supply or similar.

> I haven't done much electronic repairs since the 90's... My job path didn't go
> that way. So my few repair skills are too rusty.

I replace a lot of bad electrolytics. I've got a SAS HBA that needs
attention. "Buying new" is out of the question (no longer in
production).

The same approach deals with many monitor failures (inverters for
the CFLs... possibly taking out some FETs along the way).

>> I repaired/refurbished electric wheelchairs for a time (too many of
>> them being donated to us and then scrapped).  I managed to find homes
>> for *two*.  And, took two for myself (using one in my automation project,
>> the other I converted into an electric wheelbarrow).  And, all the rest
>> (about one-and-a-half per month) just into the tip.
>>
>> <https://marcsmobility.com/permobil-m300-powered-wheelchair-seat-lift-tilt-recline-legs-2544.html>
>>
>> One of mine is silver, the other blue.  And, have the upscale controller
>> (bluetooth, color LCD, phone charger, headlights, turn signals, seat
>> memory, etc.) and seating system (Corpus 3G w/ ROHO)
>>
>> (This is almost understandable... the folks who need chairs likely need
>> someone to service them, call on when thy have a problem, "fit" them,
>> etc.  And, often have insurance to cover those costs -- so where's
>> the incentive to save?)
>
> I knew of a chap around here who made rich repairing chairs and equipment for
> disabled people. He is an invalid himself. I believe he now hires repairmen, or
> rather he works as intermediary between invalids all around the country and the
> repairmen he knows, arranging the shipments. He knows many invalids, and knows
> where to find repairmen, I think it is.

I donate ~10/hrs per week to various "charities". Have done so for more
than 20 years as a way to "give back". I try to find activities that can
exploit my abilities in ways that others might not be able to offer
(e.g., I'm not going to tear down discarded kit to recycle its component
parts -- let some "less skilled" person take on that job).

I've got the tools to "reprogram" the controllers in the chairs -- as well
as understanding how the mechanisms are intended to interact (each chair
is different, once owned -- because each rider has different needs; so,
you have to return it to a "default" condition before it has any hope of
being of use to someone else).

And, thinking like an engineer (instead of a wheelchair repairman), I
can find ways to exploit the chair's design to make my work easier.

E.g., to replace the batteries on my chairs, you first have to raise the
seat (straight up). But, the batteries are dead -- so, you can't rely
on the motorized mechanism to do that for you! Instead, you are
expected to use the *special* long wrench that you thread through a
hole in the seat base (after removing the cushions) and manually
crank it up (like a jack for an automobile).

Then, remove the cosmetic shroud to expose the batteries. Remove
each of them (pretty heavy as they are very large -- capacity!).
Unbolt the power connections. Repeat, in reverse, to reinstall.

*But*, you can feed power into the chair through the charging port!
And, isolate the (dead) batteries -- master circuit breaker -- so the
charger isn't dragged down by their condition. And, bypass the safety
interlock so the chair is operable in this state.

While you can't source enough current to "move a person" (the wiring
to the charging port wasn't designed to carry much current -- nor any
of the connections along the way back to the battery), you *can* get
the chair to move itself AND, most importantly, get the seat elevator
to operate! No need to "crank" it up! Likewise, get the leg lift
mechanism to lift the leg rests for better access to the front battery.
Etc.

The whole operation proceeds much faster. Watch a chair repairman
do it the "approved way" and just chuckle.

(They charge $1100 to replace a set of batteries. IIRC, the batteries
are about $500 of that total -- undoubtedly more if you let them
charge you THEIR inflated prices for them).

If you have insurance, the insurance company will cover this cost
(I think once every 3-5 years?). But, you're paying for that insurance,
of course.

And, *I* can't make a claim for some chair that I don't medically
*need* (nor can the charity). So, it pays to be able to expedite the
repair!

Now, what does a recipient of such a "gifted" chair do when their
batteries run out? *I* don't guarantee my continued availability
to service THEIR chair -- even though I may have refurbished it
prior to it being gifted to them!

[Don Y]

On 3/15/2023 4:06 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> We take for normal what we have :-)
>>
>> Sadly, yes.  I recall, growing up, it was common to "sweep the driveway"
>> with a hose (instead of a broom).  Someone doing that here would promptly
>> be told to stop (by concerned neighbors).
>
> Yes, we should do that here as well. We typically "mind our own business".

Oh, the neighbors would *politely* draw your attention to your waste.
We realize that people who "aren't from around here" likely don't
understand the preoccupation with water; what was normal for you in
the last place you lived is likely not the same, here.

However, someone who repeatedly ignores such "prompting" can
just as easily find a uniformed police officer making the
same "threat" -- with legal consequences!

> There are too many houses with pools (when the beach is meters away), or have a
> well kept grass garden.

Thankfully, grass is obsolescent (though still not obsolete). The
diehards who are used to a "lush green lawn" move to artificial grass
(why not just PAINT the dirt green??)

Pools are laughable. I imagine 1/3 of homes have them (but they
are small -- 600-1200 sq ft) and can't recall seeing anyone *using*
them (maybe if the grandkids come for a visit as the *kids* are
no longer interested?).

So, it's a cost (water replenishment, routine cleaning, chemicals)
and a liability (you have to take steps to protect others from
accessing your pool and pay higher insurance premiums... for
something that deprives you of a usable yard!).

["garden", here, tends to indicate a plot of land dedicated
to growing foodstuffs. Lawn/yard being just "space"]

>> As water is becoming scarcer (Lakes Mead and Powell are at historic lows),
>> there is heightened concern over water supplies.  In most (AZ) municipalities,
>> you have to ensure a 100 year water supply (what bank would want to finance
>> development if the area wouldn't be habitable when the balance comes due?)
>>
>> Some developers have skirted the law by developing "subdivisions" of *5*
>> homes (too small for water supply regulations to apply -- even though
>> they put up a dozen of these developments on the same parcel of land!
>> (ah, but then it would be 50-100 homes and subject to legal constraints!)
>> The homeowners purchasing, there, suddenly find themselves without
>> access to water.
>
> {chuckle}

They, of course, feel that someone else should solve THEIR problem.
Like buying a diesel truck and discovering the nearest station
that sells diesel fuel is halfway across town (d'uh... didn't you
think about that BEFORE you made your purchase?)

>> [Seems to me, you'd want to be sure of that before sinking a few hundred
>> kilobucks into an investment!]
>
> Here there was a spree of building golf courses with lots of houses around to
> sell mostly to British folk.

We have some "world class" courses -- well, at least some "celebrity"
tournaments are hosted on them. But, it's largely a waste of real
estate. The private ones are usually associated with a "country
club" (a means of transfering money from folks who want to APPEAR
wealthy to people who delight in giving them the impression that
they *are*!) with membership dues, requirements to spend $X monthly
eating *at* The Club (if you fail to spend the money, you are just
billed for it AS IF you had dined there), etc.

SWMBO used to golf (recreationally) ages ago. She's found more
productive things to do with her time, now. And, other neighbors
have realized that their bodies aren't up for the task (and NO ONe
wants anything other than a 6AM tee time during the summer months...
it's already 80F, here, now).

>>> Regional right wing politicians want to bring water from other regions, but
>>> the politicians in those regions, all sides, say no way in hell. So, I guess
>>> that's a no, no matter how much they bitch here. Desalinization it will be :-}
>>
>> The real solution is to adjust water usage.  I still see people with
>> natural grass, here.  And, swimming pools that lose 6 *ft* of depth to
>> evaporation, annually (the bigger the pool, the greater the volume).
>> Of course, *covering* the water cuts down those losses immensely
>> (and gives you a "heated pool") but that requires 10 minutes of
>> effort, daily.  Far more than most folks are (apparently) willing
>> to spend!
>>
>> And, people watering with "spray" irrigation (40% loss).
>
> Indeed.
>
> Agricultural production here (Murcia) is high. Lots of sun hours. While water
> is cheap, it is very profitable. We export veggies up north to Germany and around.

The local drops tend not to be chosen wisely. Pecans, cotton, etc.
are heavy water users. A Saudi-owned farm produces alfalfa (!) to
export. It's likely there will be some significant changes to usage
as our CAP allotment is expected to be cut by 20%. Hard to imagine
a way that a farmer can trim that much off his water budget if
he hasn't already done so -- other than reducing the size of his crop!

> But we are now using more water than we have, and complaining we don't get more
> water from other regions.

Exactly. One thinks of water as just being "there" -- wherever "there"
happens to be!

>> Of course, growing cotton in the desert is equally brain damaged.
>>
>> [We've prepared for our citrus to be curtailed by planting smaller
>> varieties -- less losses to transpiration... less fruit, too!  :< ]
>>
>> But, this part of the country is accustomed to being water wary.
>> Other parts are going to really find it hard to make the adjustment.
>> No, you won't be washing your car in your driveway.  And, maybe that
>> lawn is a thing of the past.
>>
>> Utah has been notorious for being water wasters.  Now, I see,
>> their "Great" Salt Lake is likely to disappear, in a few *years*
>> (not "generations").  With the downside of exposing lots of
>> *dried* nasty compounds to wind-blown dispersal in their metro
>> area.  Ooops!  Kinda like pissing in your own sink...
>
> Gosh.
>
> Send the water to the bad water to the sea in trucks :-D

<https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/great-salt-lake-disappearing-drought-climate/index.html>

Note the water "off in the distance"...

[Ricky]

So you live somewhere hot like Puerto Rico, where the water never comes in cold. Still, the math doesn't lie. I don't know why you would want 70°C water. That's dangerously hot. 55°C will give you a first degree burn if you keep your hand under it until you are forced to pull it away. 70°C will give you second degree burns, even if you pull your hand away. Not the best idea.

At least you have electricity. So 2.5 world.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Lamont Cranston]

>Wow, garbaging a drill just because a bad cable.

I have a nice skilsaw, because someone cut the cord,
rather then fixing it the put it in the trash.
Mikek

[Don Y]

In the last month, I've rescued a chainsaw (bar oiler problem),
power washer (gummed up carburetor), the hammer drill, two
3KVA UPSs (batteries needed replacing... d'uh!), a little
"motorized skateboard" (no idea what the kids call these things),
a tiny PC -- 4"x4"x2" (bad power adapter), an electric bike
(actually, that was last month), a rusted bolt cutter (Naval jelly,
anyone?), etc.

If there weren't so many other, more interesting, things to do,
I could probably keep busy 24/7 just fixing things -- not
counting from folks who would *pay* for that service!

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-15 16:16, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/15/2023 4:06 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> We take for normal what we have :-)
>>>
>>> Sadly, yes.  I recall, growing up, it was common to "sweep the driveway"
>>> with a hose (instead of a broom).  Someone doing that here would
>>> promptly
>>> be told to stop (by concerned neighbors).
>>
>> Yes, we should do that here as well. We typically "mind our own
>> business".
>
> Oh, the neighbors would *politely* draw your attention to your waste.
> We realize that people who "aren't from around here" likely don't
> understand the preoccupation with water; what was normal for you in
> the last place you lived is likely not the same, here.
>
> However, someone who repeatedly ignores such "prompting" can
> just as easily find a uniformed police officer making the
> same "threat" -- with legal consequences!

Oh, I was just thinking that there are cultural differences. Most people
here would think "mind your own business" and say nothing, even if
some/many bitch in private about a neighbour that wastes water.

>> There are too many houses with pools (when the beach is meters away),
>> or have a well kept grass garden.
>
> Thankfully, grass is obsolescent (though still not obsolete).  The
> diehards who are used to a "lush green lawn" move to artificial grass
> (why not just PAINT the dirt green??)

There are other plants that keep the lawn green while using little
water. Not all of them allow to walk on it, though.

> Pools are laughable.  I imagine 1/3 of homes have them (but they
> are small -- 600-1200 sq ft) and can't recall seeing anyone *using*
> them (maybe if the grandkids come for a visit as the *kids* are
> no longer interested?).
>
> So, it's a cost (water replenishment, routine cleaning, chemicals)
> and a liability (you have to take steps to protect others from
> accessing your pool and pay higher insurance premiums... for
> something that deprives you of a usable yard!).
>
> ["garden", here, tends to indicate a plot of land dedicated
> to growing foodstuffs.  Lawn/yard being just "space"]

Oh! I didn't know that difference in meaning for garden.

>
>>> As water is becoming scarcer (Lakes Mead and Powell are at historic
>>> lows),
>>> there is heightened concern over water supplies.  In most (AZ)
>>> municipalities,
>>> you have to ensure a 100 year water supply (what bank would want to
>>> finance
>>> development if the area wouldn't be habitable when the balance comes
>>> due?)
>>>
>>> Some developers have skirted the law by developing "subdivisions" of *5*
>>> homes (too small for water supply regulations to apply -- even though
>>> they put up a dozen of these developments on the same parcel of land!
>>> (ah, but then it would be 50-100 homes and subject to legal
>>> constraints!)
>>> The homeowners purchasing, there, suddenly find themselves without
>>> access to water.
>>
>> {chuckle}
>
> They, of course, feel that someone else should solve THEIR problem.
> Like buying a diesel truck and discovering the nearest station
> that sells diesel fuel is halfway across town (d'uh... didn't you
> think about that BEFORE you made your purchase?)

Heh.

(around here, diesel is found on every station)

>
>>> [Seems to me, you'd want to be sure of that before sinking a few hundred
>>> kilobucks into an investment!]
>>
>> Here there was a spree of building golf courses with lots of houses
>> around to sell mostly to British folk.
>
> We have some "world class" courses -- well, at least some "celebrity"
> tournaments are hosted on them.  But, it's largely a waste of real
> estate.  The private ones are usually associated with a "country
> club" (a means of transfering money from folks who want to APPEAR
> wealthy to people who delight in giving them the impression that
> they *are*!) with membership dues, requirements to spend $X monthly
> eating *at* The Club (if you fail to spend the money, you are just
> billed for it AS IF you had dined there), etc.
>
> SWMBO used to golf (recreationally) ages ago.  She's found more
> productive things to do with her time, now.  And, other neighbors
> have realized that their bodies aren't up for the task (and NO ONe
> wants anything other than a 6AM tee time during the summer months...
> it's already 80F, here, now).

Yep, but it is not only the golf course itself. It is a whole
residential complex. The course, one hotel or more (different luxury
levels), individual houses (probably sharing a wall), apartments, shops,
restaurants, bars, discos, a Telco (to provide British TV programming to
them),... lots of things, huge investments. And lots of grass,
apparently the British love to see green even if this is almost the desert.

Dunno what they do now, after Brexit.


<https://goo.gl/maps/K1Naf4UwdDnZ8Wuw5>

<https://goo.gl/maps/wYnrpm8mVUUxm4uk8>

Yep.

>
>>> Of course, growing cotton in the desert is equally brain damaged.
>>>
>>> [We've prepared for our citrus to be curtailed by planting smaller
>>> varieties -- less losses to transpiration... less fruit, too!  :< ]
>>>
>>> But, this part of the country is accustomed to being water wary.
>>> Other parts are going to really find it hard to make the adjustment.
>>> No, you won't be washing your car in your driveway.  And, maybe that
>>> lawn is a thing of the past.
>>>
>>> Utah has been notorious for being water wasters.  Now, I see,
>>> their "Great" Salt Lake is likely to disappear, in a few *years*
>>> (not "generations").  With the downside of exposing lots of
>>> *dried* nasty compounds to wind-blown dispersal in their metro
>>> area.  Ooops!  Kinda like pissing in your own sink...
>>
>> Gosh.
>>
>> Send the water to the bad water to the sea in trucks :-D
>
> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/great-salt-lake-disappearing-drought-climate/index.html>
>
> Note the water "off in the distance"...
>

heh.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-15 15:55, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/15/2023 3:53 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Sadly, most folks simply don't want "old" things -- regardless of
>>> whether or not they work, show no signs of wear, etc.
>>>
>>> A neighbor gave me one of these, yesterday:
>>>      <https://www.ebay.com/itm/266159332945>
>>> dog had chewed the power cords.  What's that, an hour to repair
>>> (at zero cost as you just cut the "modular" end off a power cord
>>> and wire that in place of the damaged cord)?
>>>
>>> [I made a point of selecting a very long cord as power tools
>>> invariably have cords that *should* be a little longer]
>>>
>>> When I went to return it (2 hours later), she told me to keep it; she'd
>>> already bought a replacement (before she gave me the broken one).
>>> Now, I'll have to try to find someone who will want it as I've already
>>> got 3 hammer drills (various sizes).
>>
>> Wow, garbaging a drill just because a bad cable.
>>
>> Well, it makes sense if she doesn't know how to repair it herself, and
>> a repair shop is too expensive.
>
> I don't know if there are such things as "repair shops", anymore.
> Major appliances are usually serviced by "appliance companies"
> (third parties) who either have an agreement with the manifacturer
> to provide "in warranty" service (billing the manufacturer for
> their activities) *or* the homeowner.

We are going in that direction everywhere. :-(

...

> And, thinking like an engineer (instead of a wheelchair repairman), I
> can find ways to exploit the chair's design to make my work easier.
>
> E.g., to replace the batteries on my chairs, you first have to raise the
> seat (straight up).  But, the batteries are dead -- so, you can't rely
> on the motorized mechanism to do that for you!  Instead, you are
> expected to use the *special* long wrench that you thread through a
> hole in the seat base (after removing the cushions) and manually
> crank it up (like a jack for an automobile).
>
> Then, remove the cosmetic shroud to expose the batteries.  Remove
> each of them (pretty heavy as they are very large -- capacity!).
> Unbolt the power connections.  Repeat, in reverse, to reinstall.
>
> *But*, you can feed power into the chair through the charging port!
> And, isolate the (dead) batteries -- master circuit breaker -- so the
> charger isn't dragged down by their condition.  And, bypass the safety
> interlock so the chair is operable in this state.

I was thinking of that.

> While you can't source enough current to "move a person" (the wiring
> to the charging port wasn't designed to carry much current -- nor any
> of the connections along the way back to the battery), you *can* get
> the chair to move itself AND, most importantly, get the seat elevator
> to operate!  No need to "crank" it up!  Likewise, get the leg lift
> mechanism to lift the leg rests for better access to the front battery.
> Etc.
>
> The whole operation proceeds much faster.  Watch a chair repairman
> do it the "approved way" and just chuckle.
>
> (They charge $1100 to replace a set of batteries.  IIRC, the batteries
> are about $500 of that total -- undoubtedly more if you let them
> charge you THEIR inflated prices for them).
>
> If you have insurance, the insurance company will cover this cost
> (I think once every 3-5 years?).  But, you're paying for that insurance,
> of course.
>
> And, *I* can't make a claim for some chair that I don't medically
> *need* (nor can the charity).  So, it pays to be able to expedite the
> repair!
>
> Now, what does a recipient of such a "gifted" chair do when their
> batteries run out?  *I* don't guarantee my continued availability
> to service THEIR chair -- even though I may have refurbished it
> prior to it being gifted to them!

Of course.

>
>>> When.if the apocalypse movies come to be, there'll not be a shortage
>>> of "stuff" to exploit for quite some time!  :<
>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Because a 50 litres tank at 70°C lasts a longer shower than a tank at
50°C, or two people. That's how it is done here. You simply mix the hot
water with cold. Me, I set the tank to a hotter temp in winter than in
summer.

>
> At least you have electricity. So 2.5 world.

Interesting how you judge countries.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/15/2023 1:26 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-15 16:16, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/15/2023 4:06 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> We take for normal what we have :-)
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, yes.  I recall, growing up, it was common to "sweep the driveway"
>>>> with a hose (instead of a broom).  Someone doing that here would promptly
>>>> be told to stop (by concerned neighbors).
>>>
>>> Yes, we should do that here as well. We typically "mind our own business".
>>
>> Oh, the neighbors would *politely* draw your attention to your waste.
>> We realize that people who "aren't from around here" likely don't
>> understand the preoccupation with water; what was normal for you in
>> the last place you lived is likely not the same, here.
>>
>> However, someone who repeatedly ignores such "prompting" can
>> just as easily find a uniformed police officer making the
>> same "threat" -- with legal consequences!
>
> Oh, I was just thinking that there are cultural differences. Most people here
> would think "mind your own business" and say nothing, even if some/many bitch
> in private about a neighbour that wastes water.

For other things, yes. Leave your trash cans out at the curb an extra day
and folks will grumble *privately*, but likely not comment.

Water, OTOH, affects each of us. That's *my* water you're wasting!

>>> There are too many houses with pools (when the beach is meters away), or
>>> have a well kept grass garden.
>>
>> Thankfully, grass is obsolescent (though still not obsolete).  The
>> diehards who are used to a "lush green lawn" move to artificial grass
>> (why not just PAINT the dirt green??)
>
> There are other plants that keep the lawn green while using little water. Not
> all of them allow to walk on it, though.

We have crushed granite as a ground cover. Lots of plantings *in*
the yard but each has a dedicated irrigation line to ensure the
water *just* goes to its roots.

Xeriscaping (low water use landscaping) is common. E.g., we have a
couple of large (15 ft) Texas Mountain Laurels adjacent to the
front door. They are *never* watered. Yet, perpetually green.
(in bloom, presently. very pungent. they smell like grape soda)

<https://nativebackyards.com/texas-mountain-laurel-tree/>

>> Pools are laughable.  I imagine 1/3 of homes have them (but they
>> are small -- 600-1200 sq ft) and can't recall seeing anyone *using*
>> them (maybe if the grandkids come for a visit as the *kids* are
>> no longer interested?).
>>
>> So, it's a cost (water replenishment, routine cleaning, chemicals)
>> and a liability (you have to take steps to protect others from
>> accessing your pool and pay higher insurance premiums... for
>> something that deprives you of a usable yard!).
>>
>> ["garden", here, tends to indicate a plot of land dedicated
>> to growing foodstuffs.  Lawn/yard being just "space"]
>
> Oh! I didn't know that difference in meaning for garden.

Yes. On the continent, it seems to mean "yard". Here,
*yard* means yard! :> Garden is a place where you deliberately
grow things: vegetables, flowers, etc. -- some people even have
*rock* gardens (I guess for folks who can't grow stuff! :> )

>>>> As water is becoming scarcer (Lakes Mead and Powell are at historic lows),
>>>> there is heightened concern over water supplies.  In most (AZ) municipalities,
>>>> you have to ensure a 100 year water supply (what bank would want to finance
>>>> development if the area wouldn't be habitable when the balance comes due?)
>>>>
>>>> Some developers have skirted the law by developing "subdivisions" of *5*
>>>> homes (too small for water supply regulations to apply -- even though
>>>> they put up a dozen of these developments on the same parcel of land!
>>>> (ah, but then it would be 50-100 homes and subject to legal constraints!)
>>>> The homeowners purchasing, there, suddenly find themselves without
>>>> access to water.
>>>
>>> {chuckle}
>>
>> They, of course, feel that someone else should solve THEIR problem.
>> Like buying a diesel truck and discovering the nearest station
>> that sells diesel fuel is halfway across town (d'uh... didn't you
>> think about that BEFORE you made your purchase?)
>
> Heh.
>
> (around here, diesel is found on every station)

It is, here, as well. But, you might live someplace that doesn't have
any nearby stations. (there are areas that don't have electricity
*or* municipal water)

One common strategy folks adopt as they get older and accumulate wealth
is to move "farther out" -- larger plots of land to build bigger homes,
etc. Then, as they get older still, they realize it's a 30 minute drive
to the nearest hospital and they are increasingly likely to *need* to
make such a drive, "unexpectedly".

Ooops!

Some folks have summer homes on the mountain and winter homes in town.
Pity them if they have a medical emergency in the summer as it's a
helicopter ride to the nearest hospital (or, over an hour in a car).
In addition to the expense, it's still a long commute as the
helicopters are based AT the hospitals (so they have to run up the
mountain, pick up the pt and then return back down).

[I can be at one of 4 hospitals in 15 minutes -- obeying all traffic
signals. Give me an hour and I can be at one of 10!]

>>>> [Seems to me, you'd want to be sure of that before sinking a few hundred
>>>> kilobucks into an investment!]
>>>
>>> Here there was a spree of building golf courses with lots of houses around
>>> to sell mostly to British folk.
>>
>> We have some "world class" courses -- well, at least some "celebrity"
>> tournaments are hosted on them.  But, it's largely a waste of real
>> estate.  The private ones are usually associated with a "country
>> club" (a means of transfering money from folks who want to APPEAR
>> wealthy to people who delight in giving them the impression that
>> they *are*!) with membership dues, requirements to spend $X monthly
>> eating *at* The Club (if you fail to spend the money, you are just
>> billed for it AS IF you had dined there), etc.
>>
>> SWMBO used to golf (recreationally) ages ago.  She's found more
>> productive things to do with her time, now.  And, other neighbors
>> have realized that their bodies aren't up for the task (and NO ONe
>> wants anything other than a 6AM tee time during the summer months...
>> it's already 80F, here, now).
>
> Yep, but it is not only the golf course itself. It is a whole residential
> complex. The course, one hotel or more (different luxury levels), individual
> houses (probably sharing a wall), apartments, shops, restaurants, bars, discos,
> a Telco (to provide British TV programming to them),... lots of things, huge
> investments. And lots of grass, apparently the British love to see green even
> if this is almost the desert.

Here, the course is just a centerpiece. Unless you *join* the associated
country club, you're no better than any other plebian. :> The difference
is, you likely look out onto a large expanse of grass when you step into
your back yard.

> Dunno what they do now, after Brexit.
>
> <https://goo.gl/maps/K1Naf4UwdDnZ8Wuw5>
>
> <https://goo.gl/maps/wYnrpm8mVUUxm4uk8>

One of the more well known clubs, here:
<https://www.ventanacanyonclub.com/>

From the air:
<https://www.google.com/maps/search/ventana+canyon/@32.3204583,-110.847146,1278m/data=!3m1!1e3>

Zoom out to see how brown everything is, normally. You can spot where
each of the country clubs/courses are located just by looking for "green"!

What does "RM" stand for? Rue...? And, why some in yellow and others in
green?

[Don Y]

On 3/15/2023 1:34 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> And, thinking like an engineer (instead of a wheelchair repairman), I
>> can find ways to exploit the chair's design to make my work easier.
>>
>> E.g., to replace the batteries on my chairs, you first have to raise the
>> seat (straight up).  But, the batteries are dead -- so, you can't rely
>> on the motorized mechanism to do that for you!  Instead, you are
>> expected to use the *special* long wrench that you thread through a
>> hole in the seat base (after removing the cushions) and manually
>> crank it up (like a jack for an automobile).
>>
>> Then, remove the cosmetic shroud to expose the batteries.  Remove
>> each of them (pretty heavy as they are very large -- capacity!).
>> Unbolt the power connections.  Repeat, in reverse, to reinstall.
>>
>> *But*, you can feed power into the chair through the charging port!
>> And, isolate the (dead) batteries -- master circuit breaker -- so the
>> charger isn't dragged down by their condition.  And, bypass the safety
>> interlock so the chair is operable in this state.
>
> I was thinking of that.

There are two things that normally would stand in the way:
- the charger isn't intended to power the chair (it expects
to be loaded by a battery)
- there is a safety interlock that the charger electrically
engages to disable the chair (so you don't drive off with
the charger plugged in)

Both can be sidestepped *if* you plan on doing so. (and you still
have to remember to disconnect the main breaker else the battery
will just drag your power supply down -- or, burn up a wiring harness!)

I suspect employees of a "mobility" store likely aren't concerned as
to how long it takes them to do the job -- they're likely paid by
the hour (or by the day). Get done earlier and you'll just have something
else to do!

OTOH, when it's *your* (my) time involved, you want to figure out how
to do as much as possible in as little time.

>> While you can't source enough current to "move a person" (the wiring
>> to the charging port wasn't designed to carry much current -- nor any
>> of the connections along the way back to the battery), you *can* get
>> the chair to move itself AND, most importantly, get the seat elevator
>> to operate!  No need to "crank" it up!  Likewise, get the leg lift
>> mechanism to lift the leg rests for better access to the front battery.
>> Etc.
>>
>> The whole operation proceeds much faster.  Watch a chair repairman
>> do it the "approved way" and just chuckle.
>>
>> (They charge $1100 to replace a set of batteries.  IIRC, the batteries
>> are about $500 of that total -- undoubtedly more if you let them
>> charge you THEIR inflated prices for them).
>>
>> If you have insurance, the insurance company will cover this cost
>> (I think once every 3-5 years?).  But, you're paying for that insurance,
>> of course.
>>
>> And, *I* can't make a claim for some chair that I don't medically
>> *need* (nor can the charity).  So, it pays to be able to expedite the
>> repair!
>>
>> Now, what does a recipient of such a "gifted" chair do when their
>> batteries run out?  *I* don't guarantee my continued availability
>> to service THEIR chair -- even though I may have refurbished it
>> prior to it being gifted to them!
>
> Of course.

It is truly a sad state of affairs. But, short of offering my
services indefinitely (and who knows what liabilities I might
face), I don't see a way around it.

There was a young girl (~10yo?) that I would see waiting, with
her mother (? care giver?) for the school bus each morning.
I had a *small* electric wheelchair that would have been perfect
for her.

But, what are the rules of etiquette when approaching someone
(stranger) regarding a disability? Perhaps the reason the girl is
in a conventional (pushed!) wheelchair is related to some other
problem she might have that would make an electric wheelchair
a bad match. Would my appearance/offer just irritate an already
bad situation? <shrug>

[Ricky]

So there is not room in your home for a larger tank, so you set the hot water to dangerously hot temperatures to provide longer showers. I seem to recall some comment from you about others being wasteful. Here I thought you were talking about taking shorter showers. But clearly that's not the case.

> > At least you have electricity. So 2.5 world.
> Interesting how you judge countries.

I'm just listening to what you are describing.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

hope you don't have hard water

[Rocky]

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:42:21 PM UTC+2, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-15 18:05, Ricky wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 6:37:10 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> >> On 2023-03-15 05:22, Ricky wrote

< snip >

> >> Well, if it starts at 20°C then in 4 hours it goes to 54°C, which is hot
> >> enough to burn the skin. If the tank was not fully spent, it goes up to
> >> 70°C, which is about the max temp I set.
> >>
> >> (room temp typically 20°C)
> >
> > So you live somewhere hot like Puerto Rico, where the water never comes in cold. Still, the math doesn't lie. I don't know why you would want 70°C water. That's dangerously hot. 55°C will give you a first degree burn if you keep your hand under it until you are forced to pull it away. 70°C will give you second degree burns, even if you pull your hand away. Not the best idea.
> Because a 50 litres tank at 70°C lasts a longer shower than a tank at
> 50°C, or two people. That's how it is done here. You simply mix the hot
> water with cold. Me, I set the tank to a hotter temp in winter than in
> summer.
> >
> > At least you have electricity. So 2.5 world.
> Interesting how you judge countries.

We have solar heated water that can get up to 90°C. The solution is to use a 'tempering valve' which mixes the hot and cold water so that the outlet temperature is 55°C to 60°C <https://www.google.co.za/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.takealot.com%2F15mm-solar-tempering-valve%2FPLID71231164>

[Jasen Betts]

You can install an automatic mixing valve to the tank, or at point of
use.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

[Ricky]

Not sure what a mixing value does. Will it prevent overly hot water from coming out the faucet? The ones I've seen have a setting, which can be set to very hot. If someone doesn't remember to turn it back, you get scalded.

There are many cases of children and people who are otherwise infirm being scalded by overly hot water. That's why, in the US, it is recommended that the hot water tank be set no higher than 130°F (55°C). That's a temperature that gives you time to prevent scalding.

The only reason to set a higher temperature in a home hot water heater, is to allow the hot water to last longer. But the same thing can be done with a larger tank, at a lower temperature. A lower temperature saves on heat losses too.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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[Carlos E.R.]

I was thinking of this one:

<https://plantasflores.com/cactaceas-suculento/carpobrotus-acinaciformis/>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpobrotus_acinaciformis>

Or similar.

...

>>> They, of course, feel that someone else should solve THEIR problem.
>>> Like buying a diesel truck and discovering the nearest station
>>> that sells diesel fuel is halfway across town (d'uh... didn't you
>>> think about that BEFORE you made your purchase?)
>>
>> Heh.
>>
>> (around here, diesel is found on every station)
>
> It is, here, as well.  But, you might live someplace that doesn't have
> any nearby stations.  (there are areas that don't have electricity
> *or* municipal water)
>
> One common strategy folks adopt as they get older and accumulate wealth
> is to move "farther out" -- larger plots of land to build bigger homes,
> etc.  Then, as they get older still, they realize it's a 30 minute drive
> to the nearest hospital and they are increasingly likely to *need* to
> make such a drive, "unexpectedly".
>
> Ooops!

Yep.

RM? Where? :-?


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-17 08:40, Ricky wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 2:30:43 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
>> On 2023-03-15, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 4:42:21 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Because a 50 litres tank at 70°C lasts a longer shower than a tank at
>>>> 50°C, or two people. That's how it is done here. You simply mix the hot
>>>> water with cold. Me, I set the tank to a hotter temp in winter than in
>>>> summer.
>>>
>>> So there is not room in your home for a larger tank, so you set the hot water to dangerously hot temperatures to provide longer showers. I seem to recall some comment from you about others being wasteful. Here I thought you were talking about taking shorter showers. But clearly that's not the case.
>> You can install an automatic mixing valve to the tank, or at point of
>> use.
>
> Not sure what a mixing value does. Will it prevent overly hot water from coming out the faucet? The ones I've seen have a setting, which can be set to very hot. If someone doesn't remember to turn it back, you get scalded.
>
> There are many cases of children and people who are otherwise infirm being scalded by overly hot water. That's why, in the US, it is recommended that the hot water tank be set no higher than 130°F (55°C). That's a temperature that gives you time to prevent scalding.

I have not heard of any one being scalded here. Maybe we are just
smarter :-)

Oh, we also have smart mixing taps.

And smart flash gas heaters that provide a constant temperature flow, on
demand.

>
> The only reason to set a higher temperature in a home hot water heater, is to allow the hot water to last longer. But the same thing can be done with a larger tank, at a lower temperature. A lower temperature saves on heat losses too.

Of course that here houses are smaller. Your country is empty, land is
cheap. And our tanks are put near the ceiling: try to do that with a
heavy tank.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

We do.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Don Y]

On 3/17/2023 4:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> There are too many houses with pools (when the beach is meters away), or
>>>>> have a well kept grass garden.
>>>>
>>>> Thankfully, grass is obsolescent (though still not obsolete).  The
>>>> diehards who are used to a "lush green lawn" move to artificial grass
>>>> (why not just PAINT the dirt green??)
>>>
>>> There are other plants that keep the lawn green while using little water.
>>> Not all of them allow to walk on it, though.
>>
>> We have crushed granite as a ground cover.  Lots of plantings *in*
>> the yard but each has a dedicated irrigation line to ensure the
>> water *just* goes to its roots.
>>
>> Xeriscaping (low water use landscaping) is common.  E.g., we have a
>> couple of large (15 ft) Texas Mountain Laurels adjacent to the
>> front door.  They are *never* watered.  Yet, perpetually green.
>> (in bloom, presently.  very pungent.  they smell like grape soda)
>>
>> <https://nativebackyards.com/texas-mountain-laurel-tree/>
>
> I was thinking of this one:
>
> <https://plantasflores.com/cactaceas-suculento/carpobrotus-acinaciformis/>
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpobrotus_acinaciformis>
>
> Or similar.

"Ice plants". We tried a couple of them. But, they get really stressed
in the summer (or, maybe it was the winter??)

The TX MTN Laurel just keeps chugging along. We have three "trees"
(exceedingly tall shrubs?) that line the entrance to the front of
the house. They are arranged in such a way that they trap the air
on the front walkway -- after perfuming it! It is really intoxicating.

They are reasonably prolific seeders. But, the "volunteers" are
really hard to transplant; disturbing their roots is the kiss of
death.

>>> Dunno what they do now, after Brexit.
>>>
>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/K1Naf4UwdDnZ8Wuw5>
>>>
>>> <https://goo.gl/maps/wYnrpm8mVUUxm4uk8>
>>
>> One of the more well known clubs, here:
>>     <https://www.ventanacanyonclub.com/>
>>
>>  From the air:
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/ventana+canyon/@32.3204583,-110.847146,1278m/data=!3m1!1e3>
>>
>> Zoom out to see how brown everything is, normally.  You can spot where
>> each of the country clubs/courses are located just by looking for "green"!
>>
>> What does "RM" stand for?  Rue...?  And, why some in yellow and others in
>> green?
>
> RM? Where?  :-?

On the map you cited. RM### for roadways (?)

[Ricky]

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 7:59:30 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-17 08:40, Ricky wrote:
> > On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 2:30:43 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
> >> On 2023-03-15, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 4:42:21 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> >>>> Because a 50 litres tank at 70°C lasts a longer shower than a tank at
> >>>> 50°C, or two people. That's how it is done here. You simply mix the hot
> >>>> water with cold. Me, I set the tank to a hotter temp in winter than in
> >>>> summer.
> >>>
> >>> So there is not room in your home for a larger tank, so you set the hot water to dangerously hot temperatures to provide longer showers. I seem to recall some comment from you about others being wasteful. Here I thought you were talking about taking shorter showers. But clearly that's not the case.
> >> You can install an automatic mixing valve to the tank, or at point of
> >> use.
> >
> > Not sure what a mixing value does. Will it prevent overly hot water from coming out the faucet? The ones I've seen have a setting, which can be set to very hot. If someone doesn't remember to turn it back, you get scalded.
> >
> > There are many cases of children and people who are otherwise infirm being scalded by overly hot water. That's why, in the US, it is recommended that the hot water tank be set no higher than 130°F (55°C). That's a temperature that gives you time to prevent scalding.
> I have not heard of any one being scalded here. Maybe we are just
> smarter :-)

No, just more arrogant.

> Oh, we also have smart mixing taps.
>
> And smart flash gas heaters that provide a constant temperature flow, on
> demand.

So they don't produce 70°C water? That's the only thing you've said that is smart.

> > The only reason to set a higher temperature in a home hot water heater, is to allow the hot water to last longer. But the same thing can be done with a larger tank, at a lower temperature. A lower temperature saves on heat losses too.
> Of course that here houses are smaller. Your country is empty, land is
> cheap. And our tanks are put near the ceiling: try to do that with a
> heavy tank.

LOL!!! You are a trip. My pressure tank is on the ceiling! We mostly put hot water heaters in the basement, or under stairs or even in the attic. No one has them in their living rooms.

Again, world 2.5.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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[Carlos E.R.]

Ah. "Región de Murcia". That is, "RM-F30" is a road that is owned and
maintained by the Murcia Region, number "F30". Dunno what the F stands
for, maybe avoiding three digit roads. Huh, no, I see "RM-313".

Dunno why some in yellow and some in green. Good question. Maybe
"quality" of the road, the width. [...] Found it. Black on yellow is
regional (autonomic) third level road. White on green, same but second
level.

Autonomic 1st level roads are "CL-XXX", where the X are numbers, black
letters on orange background.

<https://www.cnae.com/blog/index.php/clasificacion-carreteras-tipos-espana/>



"N-340" is national road 340.

"AP-7" is "Autopista de Peaje" number 7, ie, toll highway number 7.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Tabby]

Dunning Kruger strikes again.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-17 22:34, Ricky wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 7:59:30 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-03-17 08:40, Ricky wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 2:30:43 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
>>>> On 2023-03-15, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 4:42:21 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> Because a 50 litres tank at 70°C lasts a longer shower than a tank at
>>>>>> 50°C, or two people. That's how it is done here. You simply mix the hot
>>>>>> water with cold. Me, I set the tank to a hotter temp in winter than in
>>>>>> summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> So there is not room in your home for a larger tank, so you set the hot water to dangerously hot temperatures to provide longer showers. I seem to recall some comment from you about others being wasteful. Here I thought you were talking about taking shorter showers. But clearly that's not the case.
>>>> You can install an automatic mixing valve to the tank, or at point of
>>>> use.
>>>
>>> Not sure what a mixing value does. Will it prevent overly hot water from coming out the faucet? The ones I've seen have a setting, which can be set to very hot. If someone doesn't remember to turn it back, you get scalded.
>>>
>>> There are many cases of children and people who are otherwise infirm being scalded by overly hot water. That's why, in the US, it is recommended that the hot water tank be set no higher than 130°F (55°C). That's a temperature that gives you time to prevent scalding.
>> I have not heard of any one being scalded here. Maybe we are just
>> smarter :-)
>
> No, just more arrogant.

LOL.

>> Oh, we also have smart mixing taps.
>>
>> And smart flash gas heaters that provide a constant temperature flow, on
>> demand.
>
> So they don't produce 70°C water? That's the only thing you've said that is smart.

Sure they do, if you adjust it so.

>
>
>>> The only reason to set a higher temperature in a home hot water heater, is to allow the hot water to last longer. But the same thing can be done with a larger tank, at a lower temperature. A lower temperature saves on heat losses too.
>> Of course that here houses are smaller. Your country is empty, land is
>> cheap. And our tanks are put near the ceiling: try to do that with a
>> heavy tank.
>
> LOL!!! You are a trip. My pressure tank is on the ceiling! We mostly put hot water heaters in the basement, or under stairs or even in the attic. No one has them in their living rooms.
>
> Again, world 2.5.

We put hot water tanks or heaters near the places where the hot water is
used most. If gas, on the kitchen. If electric, in the main bathroom.
And near the ceiling, so that they don't use floor space.

Where it makes sense :-p


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Ricky]

At this point, you are just being silly. You live a life style that has to preserve every square foot of space, and squeeze every penny on your electric bill. I talked to someone else in Spain who had similar restrictions from the power company. Many places don't have such restrictions. The power company provides 50 kW connections for most homes in the US. That doesn't mean you have to use 50 kW. It just means you can have a proper hot water heater that just runs when it needs to, rather than being run at the pleasure of the power company. We have room in our homes to put a hot water heater under stairs or in the back of a closet, without worrying that we are taking up valuable floor space.

I'm sure you manage to deal with these issues, but life is better when you just don't need to worry with it.

I pay $0.12 per kWh, with a $14 a month service charge. I turn off my water heater when I'm away for a week, but it actually saves very little money, maybe $2 a week, at most.

Life is good when you can have things, and not worry with them being scarce. I would hate to have to turn my water heater off and on every day. Being on a timer is fine, until the timer gets off track.

Yes, world 2.5.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

[Don Y]

On 3/17/2023 3:56 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>>>> What does "RM" stand for?  Rue...?  And, why some in yellow and others in
>>>> green?
>>>
>>> RM? Where?  :-?
>>
>> On the map you cited.  RM### for roadways (?)
>
> Ah. "Región de Murcia". That is, "RM-F30" is a road that is owned and
> maintained by the Murcia Region, number "F30". Dunno what the F stands for,
> maybe avoiding three digit roads. Huh, no, I see "RM-313".

"Owned by" is an interesting way of putting it. That may, also, apply
here. But, we tend to think of it as "maintained by".

E.g., there are roads that are maintained by the city, county, state,
federal government -- as well as private roads (e.g., in some subdivisions,
the homeowners are responsible for the maintenance of the roads that
interconnect their homes).

Some roads are "toll-ways" (pay for use) but most are open for general use.

> Dunno why some in yellow and some in green. Good question. Maybe "quality" of
> the road, the width. [...] Found it. Black on yellow is regional (autonomic)
> third level road. White on green, same but second level.

Second vs. first vs. third? Does this have anything to do with the
quality of the road, how wide it is (lanes), the type of traffic it
supports, etc.?

Here, that distinction is separate from the road's "ownership". E.g.,
the city road that my subdivision empties onto is 6 lanes. There are other
city/county roads that may be just two lanes. The interstate (federal)
highway to the next metro center is no larger than the road by my
subdivision -- but, the speed limit, there, will be 65 whereas here it's
45 (which means 55) and the road construction will be of a higher quality
(better signage, wider shoulders, smoother/more-durable pavement, etc.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbered_highways_in_the_United_States>

[Tabby]

Ricky doesn't know it or get it but still thinks he's always right.

> You live a life style that has to preserve every square foot of space, and squeeze every penny on your electric bill. I talked to someone else in Spain who had similar restrictions from the power company. Many places don't have such restrictions. The power company provides 50 kW connections for most homes in the US. That doesn't mean you have to use 50 kW. It just means you can have a proper hot water heater that just runs when it needs to, rather than being run at the pleasure of the power company. We have room in our homes to put a hot water heater under stairs or in the back of a closet, without worrying that we are taking up valuable floor space.
>
> I'm sure you manage to deal with these issues, but life is better when you just don't need to worry with it.
>
> I pay $0.12 per kWh, with a $14 a month service charge. I turn off my water heater when I'm away for a week, but it actually saves very little money, maybe $2 a week, at most.
>
> Life is good when you can have things, and not worry with them being scarce. I would hate to have to turn my water heater off and on every day. Being on a timer is fine, until the timer gets off track.
>
> Yes, world 2.5.

He thinks getting the same result in a dumber less efficient way is better. No amount of explaining educates someone that isn't even interested.