Ambuda -- a Sanskrit library

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Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 6, 2022, 1:43:25 AM6/6/22
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I are pleased to announce Ambuda (https://ambuda.org), a new Sanskrit library project.

Ambuda is a small step toward a great ambition: to make traditional Sanskrit literature radically accessible.

Specifically, I have two major goals.

The first is to create a delightful reading experience for all. It is past time that we build a beautiful reading experience that works on all devices, that supports all scripts, that has an integrated dictionary for learners, and that is worthy of the dignity and power of the language itself.

The second is to build a comprehensive Sanskrit archive. Sanskrit texts are scattered across several archives that vary widely in quality, coverage, usage right, and accessibility. This grieves me greatly. Sanskrit learners and enthusiasts deserve better than this.

The project is in its early days. Currently, it has two texts with a side-by-side view of the Monier-Williams dictionary.

The immediate next steps are to:
- improve the number of texts on the site
- improve the display so it's not so ugly
- add support for transliterating the text into different scripts

Even these three would be a significant, breakthrough milestone for Sanskrit readers. But of course my aspirations extend far beyond this.

Once Ambuda has gathered enough texts from other website, the next step is to produce them on its own. And for this, it's necessary to build out the transcription platform I described last year.

You can follow along with the project here:


Please also let me know if you're able to contribute technically.

Arun

Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 6, 2022, 1:45:51 AM6/6/22
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PS: the transcription platform link is mistaken. The correct link is here: https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/A-distributed-transcription-platform-for-Sanskrit-texts--Bi6PrCerGGCrN5TEtwKLGU4MAQ-BWyGjSApfIFvCp6GIKtkP

Irene Galstian

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Jun 6, 2022, 3:08:15 AM6/6/22
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Rather than starting from scratch yet again, I wonder if anyone is working on improving the convenience factor of DCS. So far, this is the single resource I’d come across that I can honestly call helpful for reading, in spite of its shortcomings, which any such attempt will have anyway. 
If dictionary lookup of DCS were made into a side panel and defaulted to Meanings display, leaving the more sophisticated lookup optional, that would improve something that’s already immensely useful. 

Or if Apte was a dictionary option, not just MW. 

If anybody from the list is working on DCS since Oliver made it available, it would be good to know you and to visit your project. I am very interested in getting to know such practically-minded people. 

Irene 

On 6 Jun 2022, at 6:45 am, Learn Sanskrit <questions...@gmail.com> wrote:

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 6, 2022, 3:29:49 AM6/6/22
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my opinion having worked on similar stuff 


reuse comes with a cost - dealing with outdated tech and poor coding practices 

most valuable part of dcs is the data 


i think starting from scratch was the best choice here, and predictably Arun took it

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Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 6, 2022, 9:50:01 AM6/6/22
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Irene --

You have surely seen any number of new Sanskrit projects that breezily reinvent the wheel then fizzle out with nothing to show for it. I have seen the same. I can understand your skepticism, but please grant me the courtesy of not treating me like a fool.

If the data is there, the feature is cheap. After incorporating more text data from GRETIL and other archives, using DCS data is the logical second step.

Arun

Irene Galstian

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Jun 6, 2022, 9:56:52 AM6/6/22
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Arun,

I don’t know you personally and had no intention to offend. I hope your project brings you joy. If/when the project reaches practical usefulness comparable to what DCS has now, imperfect as it is, I’d be the first to shout your name from the rooftops. 

Irene 

On 6 Jun 2022, at 2:50 pm, Learn Sanskrit <questions...@gmail.com> wrote:



kenp

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Jun 6, 2022, 12:28:09 PM6/6/22
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Arun ji,
This is very good project for multi-linguist nation .This website can be read via attached translation and transliteration tools in the browser in idic scripts. If possible you may attach simplified Sandhi tools for shlokas.

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 6, 2022, 10:57:15 PM6/6/22
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On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 19:20, Learn Sanskrit <questions...@gmail.com> wrote:
If the data is there, the feature is cheap. After incorporating more text data from GRETIL and other archives, using DCS data is the logical second step.

आर्यारुणप्रसाद, 

रामायणस्य महाभारतस्य च तनूकृत-(critical)-संस्करणानि भारतेषु प्रायेण न कश्चित् प्रयुङ्क्ते - तदपेक्षया गोरक्षपुरसंस्करणानि जनप्रियाणि पारायणाध्ययनादौ।  शुद्धः पाठः सानुवादो लभ्यते। पठनस्य ध्वनिसञ्चिकाश् चापि। तेन तस्याप्य् अन्तर्भावं चिकीर्षेद् भवान्। 


 
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sanskrit-programmers/c6a33167-acd9-41e0-bc45-e4c5405fdff3n%40googlegroups.com.


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Vishvas /विश्वासः

Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 7, 2022, 1:43:55 AM6/7/22
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On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:57:15 PM UTC-7 v...@gmail.com wrote:
आर्यारुणप्रसाद, 

रामायणस्य महाभारतस्य च तनूकृत-(critical)-संस्करणानि भारतेषु प्रायेण न कश्चित् प्रयुङ्क्ते - तदपेक्षया गोरक्षपुरसंस्करणानि जनप्रियाणि पारायणाध्ययनादौ।  शुद्धः पाठः सानुवादो लभ्यते। पठनस्य ध्वनिसञ्चिकाश् चापि। तेन तस्याप्य् अन्तर्भावं चिकीर्षेद् भवान्।

स्वस्ति मित्र। निश्चयेन! कालेन सर्व एते ग्रन्था जालस्थानेऽस्मिन् स्थापिता भविष्यन्ति। प्रथमं तु UX इति परिष्करणीयम्। ( याव् अम्बुदे विद्येते ताव् उदाहारायैव । ) तदनन्तरं सर्वं यौ च भवतात्रोक्तौ समाहरिष्यामि।

योजनानां सहस्राणि शनैर्याति पिपीलिका ...

भवदीयः
अरुणः

Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 14, 2022, 12:57:26 AM6/14/22
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It's still a prototype, but here is the Ramayana critical edition with Apte (plus 3 others) in a side panel and a word-for-word analysis using data pulled from DCS:


This setup naturally needs more polish, which is coming soon.

Arun

Rajeshwari Godbolé

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Jun 16, 2022, 12:30:03 PM6/16/22
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बहु उत्तमम्! धन्यवादाः! This is really very helpful and fantastic work. If it is ok, please allow me to suggest a couple of things:
  1. Please consider adding https://kosha.sanskrit.today/ in the list of dictionaries as they collate data from a lot of different dictionaries including the 4 you already support.
  2. Please consider integrating https://avinashvarna.github.io/audio_alignment/corpus/ramayana/1.001/ that has the audio for the shlok.
You may already be aware of other sites that provide a translation the Valmiki Ramayan, listing here the ones I know as an fyi for anyone who would like to look at these and may not have known. Perhaps we can have a section that list these as other resources?

Thanks,

Rajeshwari



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learnsanskrit.org

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Jun 16, 2022, 10:05:21 PM6/16/22
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On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 9:30 AM Rajeshwari Godbolé <rgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
बहु उत्तमम्! धन्यवादाः! This is really very helpful and fantastic work. If it is ok, please allow me to suggest a couple of things:
  1. Please consider adding https://kosha.sanskrit.today/ in the list of dictionaries as they collate data from a lot of different dictionaries including the 4 you already support.

Thank you! I'm undecided on the dictionaries but prefer a "less is more" approach. For example, I would not want to see data from 1000 dictionaries at once; I would feel overwhelmed, and I think it is cleaner to show a smaller number of curated dictionaries.

That said, it's just my preference, and I'm curious what you like about the sanskrit.today approach.
 
  1. Please consider integrating https://avinashvarna.github.io/audio_alignment/corpus/ramayana/1.001/ that has the audio for the shlok.

Yes, I want to add this at some point and think it would be a great addition once the foundation of the project is more solid. Do you know what the usage rights are for this audio?
 
  1. You may already be aware of other sites that provide a translation the Valmiki Ramayan, listing here the ones I know as an fyi for anyone who would like to look at these and may not have known. Perhaps we can have a section that list these as other resources?

Thanks, I'm aware of some of these. From looking through them all, I see (1) audio and (2) translations as the major features they have that Ambuda lacks. Both of these are on our roadmap, but only when the foundation of the project is stronger. For now I want to make sure that the project's core competencies -- texts presented on multiple devices, with a full word-by-word parse, and a quick dictionary lookup -- are seamless and delightful.

Arun
 
Thanks,

Rajeshwari



On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 12:57 AM Learn Sanskrit <questions...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's still a prototype, but here is the Ramayana critical edition with Apte (plus 3 others) in a side panel and a word-for-word analysis using data pulled from DCS:


This setup naturally needs more polish, which is coming soon.

Arun

On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 10:43:55 PM UTC-7 Learn Sanskrit wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:57:15 PM UTC-7 v...@gmail.com wrote:
आर्यारुणप्रसाद, 

रामायणस्य महाभारतस्य च तनूकृत-(critical)-संस्करणानि भारतेषु प्रायेण न कश्चित् प्रयुङ्क्ते - तदपेक्षया गोरक्षपुरसंस्करणानि जनप्रियाणि पारायणाध्ययनादौ।  शुद्धः पाठः सानुवादो लभ्यते। पठनस्य ध्वनिसञ्चिकाश् चापि। तेन तस्याप्य् अन्तर्भावं चिकीर्षेद् भवान्।

स्वस्ति मित्र। निश्चयेन! कालेन सर्व एते ग्रन्था जालस्थानेऽस्मिन् स्थापिता भविष्यन्ति। प्रथमं तु UX इति परिष्करणीयम्। ( याव् अम्बुदे विद्येते ताव् उदाहारायैव । ) तदनन्तरं सर्वं यौ च भवतात्रोक्तौ समाहरिष्यामि।

योजनानां सहस्राणि शनैर्याति पिपीलिका ...

भवदीयः
अरुणः

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Shreevatsa R

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Jun 17, 2022, 10:22:52 AM6/17/22
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On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 at 21:57, Learn Sanskrit <questions...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's still a prototype, but here is the Ramayana critical edition with Apte (plus 3 others) in a side panel and a word-for-word analysis using data pulled from DCS:


This setup naturally needs more polish, which is coming soon.


This looks like the start of something great!
Right now, on a mobile device (width < 768px) there is no side panel, is it intended to have it working on a mobile eventually, or is that something impractical?
 

Arun

On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 10:43:55 PM UTC-7 Learn Sanskrit wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 7:57:15 PM UTC-7 v...@gmail.com wrote:
आर्यारुणप्रसाद, 

रामायणस्य महाभारतस्य च तनूकृत-(critical)-संस्करणानि भारतेषु प्रायेण न कश्चित् प्रयुङ्क्ते - तदपेक्षया गोरक्षपुरसंस्करणानि जनप्रियाणि पारायणाध्ययनादौ।  शुद्धः पाठः सानुवादो लभ्यते। पठनस्य ध्वनिसञ्चिकाश् चापि। तेन तस्याप्य् अन्तर्भावं चिकीर्षेद् भवान्।

स्वस्ति मित्र। निश्चयेन! कालेन सर्व एते ग्रन्था जालस्थानेऽस्मिन् स्थापिता भविष्यन्ति। प्रथमं तु UX इति परिष्करणीयम्। ( याव् अम्बुदे विद्येते ताव् उदाहारायैव । ) तदनन्तरं सर्वं यौ च भवतात्रोक्तौ समाहरिष्यामि।

योजनानां सहस्राणि शनैर्याति पिपीलिका ...

भवदीयः
अरुणः

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learnsanskrit.org

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Jun 17, 2022, 10:40:08 AM6/17/22
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Some version of it will work on mobile soon. I think a sidebar is difficult given the small screen, but I’m considering either a pop-over modal or a vertical split (text above, details below).

More philosophically, however, I am considering how this information might be exposed less clumsily. I like the idea of having this information replace the existing verse (where possible) rather than live in a separate window. That is, suppose a user could tap a word and see the sandhi undone “in-place” without having to refer to a separate screen.

Each has pros and cons. Do you have a preference?

Arun

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Shreevatsa R

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Jun 17, 2022, 10:45:41 AM6/17/22
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Yes I would much prefer sandhi (and compounds) being undone "in-place". For dictionary lookup, a pop-over model would be good.

(Just took a look at DCS and it does something similar, though that's hardly a standard of convenient reading. See also nodictionaries.com for another idea, though it doesn't work great on mobile either.)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sanskrit-programmers/CADSYPL4oFbx7W7q%2BaW_EULTEsv64YA0tM9XSwS5x4RmwxLXFhw%40mail.gmail.com.

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 18, 2022, 9:02:05 AM6/18/22
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 at 20:15, Shreevatsa R <shree...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes I would much prefer sandhi (and compounds) being undone "in-place".

 
For dictionary lookup, a pop-over model would be good.

Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 20, 2022, 1:09:36 AM6/20/22
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- Sandhi and compounds are now undone "in-place" when the user clicks or taps on them.

- Ambuda now works on mobile phones.

- The Mahabharata now has a padaccheda for most verses. On Ambuda I currently use the critical edition, and it's not obvious which version DCS uses but it contains extra material not in the CE. So I hacked together a heuristic verse/analysis aligner to make things work. Coverage is about 91% for the Ramayana and 95% for the Mahabharata, but I expect both to rise soon.

I will continue to increase the coverage for both of these texts, and I will also start adding other texts with their word-by-word analyses. In particular, the parse data needs further cleanup to better match the underlying text, so it's not perfectly usable as-is.

Arun

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 20, 2022, 3:13:52 AM6/20/22
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साधु!

https://github.com/sanskrit/ambuda/issues इत्यस्य सङ्केतः क्वचिन् निर्दिश्यताम् पृष्ठेषु, येन सूचना दातुं सरलं स्यात्। सद्यः सूचनाद्वयम् अर्पितम्। 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sanskrit-programmers/3d00f87e-2907-4bd5-b7e5-e6b275918542n%40googlegroups.com.

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 20, 2022, 3:16:07 AM6/20/22
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On Mon, 20 Jun 2022 at 10:39, Learn Sanskrit <questions...@gmail.com> wrote:
- Sandhi and compounds are now undone "in-place" when the user clicks or taps on them.

कथं यथापूर्वं करणीयम्? तदर्थम् अपि किञ्चिच् चिन्त्यताम्।

 

Arun

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Jun 20, 2022, 9:03:47 PM6/20/22
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> https://github.com/sanskrit/ambuda/issues इत्यस्य सङ्केतः क्वचिन् निर्दिश्यताम् पृष्ठेषु, येन सूचना दातुं सरलं स्यात्। सद्यः सूचनाद्वयम् अर्पितम्।

I'll add a link. I've followed up on both issues by (1) enabling dict re-fetch when the menu changes and (2) adding the shabda-sagara (see the comments on the issue for stardict).

> कथं यथापूर्वं करणीयम्? तदर्थम् अपि किञ्चिच् चिन्त्यताम्।

Just added a quick link to do this. It's a little hacky, but it should work well for now.

Arun

kenp

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Jun 21, 2022, 9:22:06 PM6/21/22
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Arun ji,
Is there a way to modify the Sanskrit transliteration scheme in  stated project?
Since ṃ / ं Has dual sound is  वंशा pronounced as vaṃśā or vaṁsha /vanshā ? There may be so many words like this in Sanskrit literature.

ययातीक्ष्वाकुवंशश्च राजर्षीणां च सर्वशः ।
संभूता बहवो वंशा भूतसर्गाः सविस्तराः ॥ ४५ ॥
भूतस्थानानि सर्वाणि रहस्यं त्रिविधं च यत् ।
वेदयोगं सविज्ञानं धर्मोऽर्थः काम एव च ॥ ४६ ॥
धर्मकामार्थशास्त्राणि शास्त्राणि विविधानि च ।
लोकयात्राविधानं च संभूतं दृष्टवानृषिः ॥ ४७ ॥

yayātīkṣvākuvaṃśaśca rājarṣīṇāṃ ca sarvaśaḥ .
saṃbhūtā bahavo vaṃśā bhūtasargāḥ savistarāḥ .. 45 ..
bhūtasthānāni sarvāṇi rahasyaṃ trividhaṃ ca yat .
vedayogaṃ savijñānaṃ dharmo'rthaḥ kāma eva ca .. 46 ..
dharmakāmārthaśāstrāṇi śāstrāṇi vividhāni ca .
lokayātrāvidhānaṃ ca saṃbhūtaṃ dṛṣṭavānṛṣiḥ .. 47 ..

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 21, 2022, 9:24:45 PM6/21/22
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 at 06:52, kenp <drk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Arun ji,
Is there a way to modify the Sanskrit transliteration scheme in  stated project?
Since ṃ / ं Has dual sound is  वंशा pronounced as vaṃśā or vaṁsha /vanshā ? There may be so many words like this in Sanskrit literature.

The second pronunciation, while popular among modern Indo Aryan speakers, is wrong as per shAstra-s.

 
ययातीक्ष्वाकुवंशश्च राजर्षीणां च सर्वशः ।
संभूता बहवो वंशा भूतसर्गाः सविस्तराः ॥ ४५ ॥
भूतस्थानानि सर्वाणि रहस्यं त्रिविधं च यत् ।
वेदयोगं सविज्ञानं धर्मोऽर्थः काम एव च ॥ ४६ ॥
धर्मकामार्थशास्त्राणि शास्त्राणि विविधानि च ।
लोकयात्राविधानं च संभूतं दृष्टवानृषिः ॥ ४७ ॥

yayātīkṣvākuvaṃśaśca rājarṣīṇāṃ ca sarvaśaḥ .
saṃbhūtā bahavo vaṃśā bhūtasargāḥ savistarāḥ .. 45 ..
bhūtasthānāni sarvāṇi rahasyaṃ trividhaṃ ca yat .
vedayogaṃ savijñānaṃ dharmo'rthaḥ kāma eva ca .. 46 ..
dharmakāmārthaśāstrāṇi śāstrāṇi vividhāni ca .
lokayātrāvidhānaṃ ca saṃbhūtaṃ dṛṣṭavānṛṣiḥ .. 47 ..

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Arun

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Jun 21, 2022, 10:13:33 PM6/21/22
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Hi Ken ji,

Sorry, I don't understand what you are suggesting. ṃ is the IAST convention, and I think most readers of Romanized Sanskrit would treat ṁ and ṃ as basically identical.

Arun

kenp

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Jun 22, 2022, 9:06:28 PM6/22/22
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Arun Ji,
अं आं इं ईं उं ऊं एं ऐं ओं औं / अँ आँ इँ ईँ उँ ऊँ एँ
ङ् /ङ ,ञ् /ञ, ण्/ण, न् /न, म् /म, / ं
कं, कां, किं, कीं, कुं, कूं, कें, कैं, कों, कौं
For example हिंदी ,कंचन,कंबल,संस्कृत
Anusvar ṃ / ं /can be pronounced as m or n /म् or न् / in Sanskrit but in Hindi it is pronounced as न्

aṃ āṃ iṃ īṃ uṃ ūṃ eṃ aiṃ oṃ auṃ / am̐ ām̐ im̐ īm̐ um̐ ūm̐ em̐
ṅ /ṅa ,ñ /ña, ṇ/ṇa, n /na, m /ma, / ṃ
kaṃ, kāṃ, kiṃ, kīṃ, kuṃ, kūṃ, keṃ, kaiṃ, koṃ, kauṃ
For example hiṃdī ,kaṃcana, kaṃbala, saṃskṛta
Anusvar ṃ / ṃ /can be pronounced as m or n /m or n / in Sanskrit but in Hindi it is pronounced as n

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 22, 2022, 9:12:43 PM6/22/22
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 06:36, kenp <drk...@gmail.com> wrote:
Anusvar ṃ / ं /can be pronounced as m or n /म् or न् / in Sanskrit but in Hindi it is pronounced as न्

No Ken, you're mistaken. anusvAra in sanskrit is different from both म् and न्, though it is closer to the former. Sanskrit has something called "shixA" shAstra which describes pronunciation, and "vyAkaraNa" or grammar which posits allowable substitutions. Please study these. Or listen to intros such as https://deejayvaidya.tumblr.com/post/42427477788/sanskrit-pronunciation-podcast-5-anusvara-the .  You might have been fooled by observations of people you wrongly assumed to have been perfect in speech.

 
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Raman.M

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Jun 23, 2022, 3:20:04 AM6/23/22
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>> For example हिंदी ,कंचन,कंबल,संस्कृत

In Sanskrit, as far as I know, the right way is

हिन्दी, कञ्चन, कम्बल् and संस्कृतम्

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 23, 2022, 4:24:17 AM6/23/22
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 12:50, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> For example हिंदी ,कंचन,कंबल,संस्कृत

In Sanskrit, as far as I know, the right way is

हिन्दी, कञ्चन, कम्बल् and संस्कृतम्


In case we're dealing with a samasta-pada followed by a consonant with a corresponding anunAsika, there's an option. For example, संताप as well as सन्ताप is valid, depending on whether one takes the वा पदान्तस्य option.

 

Raman.M

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Jun 23, 2022, 5:10:03 AM6/23/22
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This incorrect-ness has been so pervasive that it is now come to be the truth and the original correct form being looked down.

For those who would like to stay with the tradition, here is some comfort or authority

 

image001.png

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 23, 2022, 9:50:42 AM6/23/22
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 14:40, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

This incorrect-ness has been so pervasive that it is now come to be the truth and the original correct form being looked down.

For those who would like to stay with the tradition, here is some comfort or authority

 

 
You're wrong about शंकर not being correct, since you would be contradicting the option retained under https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.4/8.4.59/ 


kenp

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Jun 23, 2022, 10:55:59 AM6/23/22
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Friends,
There may be grammatical rules for using Anusvar(ं) in Sanskrit written in Devanagari script but in Hindi it's not widely followed. 

हिंदी वर्णमाला में कुल पांच वर्ग होते हैं, इन वर्गों में पांचवे वर्ण को पंचमाक्षर कहा जाता हैं। जो निम्न है: ङ्, ञ़्, ण्, न्, म् इन शब्दों के स्थान पर अनुस्वार (ं) का प्रयोग किया जाता है।

One may read ...(ं) 3.6.1

Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 23, 2022, 10:58:08 AM6/23/22
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For further discussion on this point , I think samskrita would be a better list. For Sanskrit students who are confused on the usage here, see:

मोऽनुस्वारःhttps://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/8/3/23
नश्चापदान्तस्य झलि https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/8/3/24
अनुस्वारस्य ययि परसवर्णः https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/8/4/58
वा पदान्तस्य https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/8/4/59

And the अव्ययत्व of सम् --

स्वरादिनिपातमव्ययम्  https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/1/37

And the पदत्व of an अव्यय --

सुप्तिङन्तं पदम् https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/4/14
अर्थवदधातुरप्रत्ययः प्रातिपदिकम् https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/2/45
ङ्याप्प्रातिपदिकात् https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/4/1/1
अव्ययादाप्सुपः https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/2/4/82
प्रत्ययलोपे प्रत्ययलक्षणम् https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/1/62

Back on topic --

- Coverage for the Ramayana and the Mahabharata is around 100%, though there is still quite a lot of parse data to clean up and standardize.
- Added a Sanskrit-Kannada dictionary per Vishvas's suggestion. If there is a good Sanskrit-Hindi dictionary, I would like to add that too. Long-term I want Ambuda available in every Indian language (not just English), so having good dictionaries is a reasonable step.
- If you are interested in contributing technically to Ambuda, please join our Discord server, which has more low-level discussion of technical issues: https://discord.gg/7rGdTyWY7Z

Arun

Chandrasekharan Raman

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Jun 23, 2022, 11:24:34 AM6/23/22
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If there is a good Sanskrit-Hindi dictionary, I would like to add that too. Long-term I want Ambuda available in every Indian language (not just English), so having good dictionaries is a reasonable step.

One of the very good Sanskrit-Hindi dictionary by Apte. It is available in https://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl/. Please look here for example - https://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/cgi-bin/scl/MT/options1.cgi?word=दिव्&outencoding=DEV

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Learn Sanskrit

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Jun 23, 2022, 9:10:05 PM6/23/22
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> One of the very good Sanskrit-Hindi dictionary by Apte. It is available in https://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl/. Please look here for example - https://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/cgi-bin/scl/MT/options1.cgi?word=दिव्&outencoding=DEV

Wonderful! I don't see a download link on the site, so I will follow up with Professor Kulkarni on samskrita.

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 23, 2022, 9:23:26 PM6/23/22
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- Coverage for the Ramayana and the Mahabharata is around 100%, though there is still quite a lot of parse data to clean up and standardize.
- Added a Sanskrit-Kannada dictionary per Vishvas's suggestion. If there is a good Sanskrit-Hindi dictionary, I would like to add that too. Long-term I want Ambuda available in every Indian language (not just English), so having good dictionaries is a reasonable step.
There is a sa-ta dictionary at samskritam-tamizham_dictionary.babylon . No idea how good that is.


 
- If you are interested in contributing technically to Ambuda, please join our Discord server, which has more low-level discussion of technical issues: https://discord.gg/7rGdTyWY7Z

Arun

On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 7:55:59 AM UTC-7 kenp wrote:
Friends,
There may be grammatical rules for using Anusvar(ं) in Sanskrit written in Devanagari script but in Hindi it's not widely followed. 

हिंदी वर्णमाला में कुल पांच वर्ग होते हैं, इन वर्गों में पांचवे वर्ण को पंचमाक्षर कहा जाता हैं। जो निम्न है: ङ्, ञ़्, ण्, न्, म् इन शब्दों के स्थान पर अनुस्वार (ं) का प्रयोग किया जाता है।

One may read ...(ं) 3.6.1

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Bandaru Viswanath

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Jun 24, 2022, 12:43:13 AM6/24/22
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You're wrong about शंकर not being correct, since you would be contradicting the option retained under https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.4/8.4.59/

It has to be शं कर (as two different words) correct ? not as a single word, since it won't be 'end of a word'.

Vissu

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sanskrit-programmers/CAFY6qgFXPhZkj7i6tR%3D8Tvbf-5dW_bBcfW8P17-P4ORsodS71A%40mail.gmail.com.

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 24, 2022, 1:46:21 AM6/24/22
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+ शब्दशास्त्रम् , sanskrit-programmers to bcc

"वा पदान्तस्य" इत्य्+अनेन
शंकर इत्य् अनुस्वारसहितरूपम् अपि सिध्यति खलु?

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:13, Bandaru Viswanath <vegav...@gmail.com> wrote:

You're wrong about शंकर not being correct, since you would be contradicting the option retained under https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.4/8.4.59/

It has to be शं कर (as two different words) correct ? not as a single word, since it won't be 'end of a word'.

समस्तपदघटने सुप्-प्रत्ययानां लुग् भवति। तथापि पदसंज्ञा तु वरतत एव। 

सुप्तिङन्तं पदम् https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/4/14
प्रत्ययलोपे प्रत्ययलक्षणम् https://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/1/62



 

Vissu

Raman.M

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Jun 26, 2022, 1:37:05 AM6/26/22
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From: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bandaru Viswanath
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 10:13 AM
To: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Ambuda -- a Sanskrit library

 

 

You're wrong about शंकर not being correct, since you would be contradicting the option retained under https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.4/8.4.59/

 

It has to be शं कर (as two different words) correct ? not as a single word, since it won't be 'end of a word'.

 

Vissu

That’s right.

शं नो॑ मि॒त्रः शं वरु॑ण:

Is valid.

image001.png

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 26, 2022, 1:52:28 AM6/26/22
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 11:07, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

From: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bandaru Viswanath
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 10:13 AM
To: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Ambuda -- a Sanskrit library

 

 

You're wrong about शंकर not being correct, since you would be contradicting the option retained under https://ashtadhyayi.github.io/suutra/8.4/8.4.59/

 

It has to be शं कर (as two different words) correct ? not as a single word, since it won't be 'end of a word'.

 

Vissu

That’s right.


False - if you have a basis in pANini's tradition for your claim, I'd love to read it in response to https://groups.google.com/g/shabda-shAstram/c/PS_KKV2iW-Y .

Raman.M

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Jun 26, 2022, 3:11:37 AM6/26/22
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It is not in my interest to counter these. Just pointing out the differences.

There is no second thought on what panini says about how these are to be pronounced. It is NOT pronounced as शं कर, only as शङ्कर. Tradition has it that you script the way it is pronounced, atleast in the one I grew up.

You are arguing on the scripting, which I have already highlighted that the convoluted practice prevails.

You can take a look at https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/

You will not find a single document that subscribes to this relaxed practice.

Rest up to the individuals needs and likes.

 

I rest the case.

image001.png

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 26, 2022, 3:42:08 AM6/26/22
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 12:41, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is not in my interest to counter these. Just pointing out the differences.

There is no second thought on what panini says about how these are to be pronounced. It is NOT pronounced as शं कर, only as शङ्कर. Tradition has it that you script the way it is pronounced, atleast in the one I grew up.

You are arguing on the scripting, which I have already highlighted that the convoluted practice prevails.


This is a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my view. I am NOT arguing on the basis of writing, but on the basis of upapadas in samasta-padas having pada-saMjJNA as per pANini. 

 

Raman.M

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Jun 26, 2022, 4:17:46 AM6/26/22
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Are you clarifying that शम्कर is how शंकर should be read and it is correct?

image001.png

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 26, 2022, 5:43:44 AM6/26/22
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 13:47, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you clarifying that शम्कर is how शंकर should be read and it is correct?


No! Please put in some effort to read and understand what others write before responding.

By the way, I suspect your claim "Tradition has it that you script the way it is pronounced, atleast in the one I grew up."  to be false as well. (Going by your name, you come from a tradition which used grantha or maybe nandinAgarI, but not devanAgarI - where anusvAra was routinely used to represent panchama-vargIya-vyanjana-s. )

 

Raman.M

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Jun 26, 2022, 6:32:02 AM6/26/22
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From: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of ???????? ???????? (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 3:13 PM
To: sanskrit-programmers <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Ambuda -- a Sanskrit library

 

 

 

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 13:47, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you clarifying that शम्कर is how शंकर should be read and it is correct?

 

No! Please put in some effort to read and understand what others write before responding.

Applies to you more. Don’t engage if you cant be polite and decent and cant understand what is written. You jumped in when I wrote to some one else claiming सन्ताप and संताप are same, and I only clarified that this is a convoluted practice (my opinion) and didn’t even call you out to respond. If you respect it, go through the link I provided, else stay calm. Your responses are rubbish, contradicting yourself.

 

By the way, I suspect your claim "Tradition has it that you script the way it is pronounced, atleast in the one I grew up."  to be false as well. (Going by your name, you come from a tradition which used grantha or maybe nandinAgarI, but not devanAgarI - where anusvAra was routinely used to represent panchama-vargIya-vyanjana-s. )

Just because you moderate the group, you can get away with anything? No different from the liberals who gather a bunch of like minded nuts and go around distorting everything and claiming their understanding is superior.

 

image001.png

Raman.M

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Jun 26, 2022, 7:24:35 AM6/26/22
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That’s शङ्कर in grantha, so every one knows who is lying and trying to put down others with a lie about lie-ing.

 

From: Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 4:02 PM
To: 'sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com' <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: Ambuda -- a Sanskrit library

 

 

 

From: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of ???????? ???????? (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2022 3:13 PM
To: sanskrit-programmers <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Ambuda -- a Sanskrit library

 

 

 

On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 13:47, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you clarifying that शम्कर is how शंकर should be read and it is correct?

 

No! Please put in some effort to read and understand what others write before responding.

Applies to you more. Don’t engage if you cant be polite and decent and cant understand what is written. You jumped in when I wrote to some one else claiming सन्ताप and संताप are same, and I only clarified that this is a convoluted practice (my opinion) and didn’t even call you out to respond. If you respect it, go through the link I provided, else stay calm. Your responses are rubbish, contradicting yourself.

 

By the way, I suspect your claim "Tradition has it that you script the way it is pronounced, atleast in the one I grew up."  to be false as well. (Going by your name, you come from a tradition which used grantha or maybe nandinAgarI, but not devanAgarI - where anusvAra was routinely used to represent panchama-vargIya-vyanjana-s. )

Just because you moderate the group, you can get away with anything? No different from the liberals who gather a bunch of like minded nuts and go around distorting everything and claiming their understanding is superior.

 

 

 

 

From: sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com <sanskrit-p...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of ???????? ???????? (Vishvas Vasuki)

image001.png
image002.png

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 26, 2022, 8:03:03 AM6/26/22
to sanskrit-programmers, Vinodh Rajan
On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 16:54, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

That’s शङ्कर in grantha, so every one knows who is lying and trying to put down others with a lie about lie-ing.


LOL. I did not say that it is impossible to write panchama-s in grantha (or for that matter in devanAgarI) - I just said that anusvAra is routinely used in its place, as it was in all neighboring script traditions (kannada, telugu, malayalam, tamil ..). I am open to being corrected by a sensible person who is actually familiar with the script (such as vinod, cc-ed)
 

 

No! Please put in some effort to read and understand what others write before responding.

Applies to you more. Don’t engage if you cant be polite and decent and cant understand what is written. You jumped in when I wrote to some one else claiming सन्ताप and संताप are same, and I only clarified that this is a convoluted practice (my opinion) and didn’t even call you out to respond.


Who told you that I need your invitation to respond to bogus statements on a public list I participate in?


 

Your responses are rubbish, contradicting yourself.


Oho - shows your reading and thinking ability. (Tip: As I said in my very first email to Ken, anusvAra (the sound, not the sign) is different from makAra. )

Since you think my responses are rubbish and since I think you're misunderstanding, misrepresenting and wasting everyone's time, I put your posts on moderation.
Still, I challenge you to show a single contradiction in what I said (ie - quote two statements verbatim such that statement A contradicts statement B) - and I assure you that I will let it through (with my sincere thanks) - if it is not bullshit again.

Shreevatsa R

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Jun 26, 2022, 10:11:08 AM6/26/22
to sanskrit-programmers, Vinodh Rajan
Could we please move further discussion about script to a separate thread?

This has nothing to do with the Ambuda project any more (and even the first post by Ken P that led to this tangent was of questionable direct relevance).

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Bandaru Viswanath

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Jun 27, 2022, 12:19:06 PM6/27/22
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 as it was in all neighboring script traditions (kannada, telugu, malayalam, tamil ..). I am open to being corrected by a sensible person

Doesn't apply to Telugu, of which I am a native speaker. Modern telugu from modern people is not a reference, since it is convoluted, and english is actually accepted and understood as telugu than real telugu.  All the old telugu literature books from reputed houses such as Vavilla, use proper 5th letters in ku-tu-pu etc vargas.

Letters in telugu script are a superset of what's asked for in Sanskrit, and all of sanskrit can be represented in telugu script without any loss, and with out additional letters.

Thanks
Vissu

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jun 28, 2022, 12:49:04 AM6/28/22
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On Mon, 27 Jun 2022 at 21:49, Bandaru Viswanath <vegav...@gmail.com> wrote:
 as it was in all neighboring script traditions (kannada, telugu, malayalam, tamil ..). I am open to being corrected by a sensible person

Doesn't apply to Telugu, of which I am a native speaker. Modern telugu from modern people is not a reference, since it is convoluted, and english is actually accepted and understood as telugu than real telugu.  All the old telugu literature books from reputed houses such as Vavilla, use proper 5th letters in ku-tu-pu etc vargas.
 
As it happens, my sAmaveda AchArya-s used telugu script (mixed with what seems to be some obscure grantha-type script for svaras). I handled and saved manuscripts which they laboriously and meticulously copied from generation to generation till their hands were swollen (and have seen older copies on palm leaf which I did not digitize), for example -

You can see routine usage of anusvAras for panchama-s. So, this practice of Vavilla type publishers not using such anusvAra shortcut is news to me and make me suspect if it is a rare (and relatively modern practice). Could you point me to the oldest telugu books and manuscripts you know of which do this?

 



Thanks
Vissu

On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 5:33 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 at 16:54, Raman.M <mram...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

That’s शङ्कर in grantha, so every one knows who is lying and trying to put down others with a lie about lie-ing.


LOL. I did not say that it is impossible to write panchama-s in grantha (or for that matter in devanAgarI) - I just said that anusvAra is routinely used in its place, as it was in all neighboring script traditions (kannada, telugu, malayalam, tamil ..). I am open to being corrected by a sensible person who is actually familiar with the script (such as vinod, cc-ed)
 

 

No! Please put in some effort to read and understand what others write before responding.

Applies to you more. Don’t engage if you cant be polite and decent and cant understand what is written. You jumped in when I wrote to some one else claiming सन्ताप and संताप are same, and I only clarified that this is a convoluted practice (my opinion) and didn’t even call you out to respond.


Who told you that I need your invitation to respond to bogus statements on a public list I participate in?


 

Your responses are rubbish, contradicting yourself.


Oho - shows your reading and thinking ability. (Tip: As I said in my very first email to Ken, anusvAra (the sound, not the sign) is different from makAra. )

Since you think my responses are rubbish and since I think you're misunderstanding, misrepresenting and wasting everyone's time, I put your posts on moderation.
Still, I challenge you to show a single contradiction in what I said (ie - quote two statements verbatim such that statement A contradicts statement B) - and I assure you that I will let it through (with my sincere thanks) - if it is not bullshit again.

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Bandaru Viswanath

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Jun 28, 2022, 11:26:18 AM6/28/22
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HI Vishvas,

Vavilla is a very old publisher, and doesn't publish any more, though there are efforts to revive it. It is the nirnaya sagar press for telugu. You will find plenty of books in archive.org. I am attaching a screen-grab from their "kirAtarjuneeyam' book. You can see proper panchamyanta-usage in telugu script.

I am also attaching a picture from the taittirya samhita first anuvaka. This is the book that I was taught my swa-shakha by my teacher. This is a modern book. Here also you can see proper panchamyanta-usage in telugu script.

I can't comment on the process you mentioned for lack of familiarity with people and their knowledge. All the samaveda scholars I know of, all use nagari.  All I can say is that using 'ma' as a shortcut in telugu script is a wrong practice, but popular these days.

Screenshot 2022-06-28 at 8.40.11 PM.png
WhatsApp Image 2022-06-28 at 8.42.13 PM.jpeg


Thanks
Vissu

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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jul 16, 2022, 9:10:35 PM7/16/22
to sanskrit-programmers, Vinodh Rajan, Venugopalan Sankaran
I am still curious about the below (ie - are the panchama varNas routinely used in grantha script texts). I just learned that (much to my surprise) that in tamiL script, the panchama varNa-s are properly used - for example, 
அஞ்சிலே அணங்கை
If anyone knows, please let me know.

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jul 16, 2022, 10:11:12 PM7/16/22
to sanskrit-programmers, Vinodh Rajan, Venugopalan Sankaran, Ramanuja-char रामानुजः पराङ्कुशाचार्य-सूनुः P, Ajit अजितकृष्णसूनुः होता
(+ रामानुजार्यः, अजितश् च)

विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jul 17, 2022, 12:35:00 AM7/17/22
to Ajit Krishnan, sanskrit-programmers, Venugopalan Sankaran, Vinodh Rajan, Ramanuja-char रामानुजः पराङ्कुशाचार्य-सूनुः P
Thanks!

The highlights in blue are all न, right (whose use is common in scripts which use "lazy anusvAra" as well)?

You are saying that shankara and ganga are always written with 𑌙 - so we see  ṅa 𑌙 or ña 𑌞 quite frequently? (unlike in kannaDa or telugu)?


On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 at 08:32, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
If your question is about internal sandhis (upasargas etc), anusvara is uncommon, in my recollection. Anusvara is not used at all in words like ganga, Shankara etc. The very existence of special glyphs for some of these cases attests to it. 

    

On Sat, Jul 16, 2022 at 10:54 PM Ajit Krishnan <ajit.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

I haven’t paid attention to it. I think anusvara is more common. Fifth varna is not at all rare. It’s used more often in slokas and mantras. Anusvara is more common with right justified words.

Here’s a random passage showing all of the above. Red is anusvara. Blue are the fifths.

    ajit


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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)

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Jul 17, 2022, 7:15:21 AM7/17/22
to Ajit Krishnan, sanskrit-programmers, Venugopalan Sankaran, Vinodh Rajan, Harish हरीशः स्वामिनाथसुतः swamintn, Ramanuja-char रामानुजः पराङ्कुशाचार्य-सूनुः P
Additional info from shrI harIsh (cc-ed), whose son learned KYV following the TamiL tradition (which uses grantha lipi for instruction) -

"They use anusvara mostly..This is based on printed texts ..not sure about manuscripts"

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