A Super League Actually Happening?

[anders t]

Or just negotiation ammo?

I hope the latter.


--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08

[anders t]

Quoting anders t in rec.sport.soccer:
>Or just negotiation ammo?
>
>I hope the latter.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56794673

[MH]

On 2021-04-18 14:05, anders t wrote:
> Quoting anders t in rec.sport.soccer:
>> Or just negotiation ammo?
>>
>> I hope the latter.

Me too.

The idea of using a Swiss system in the CL is interesting, but 10 rounds
seems too many to me. 8 should be more than sufficient, followed by
QFs. Or maybe 1/16 finals and QFs consisting of one match each (higher
ranked team is at home).

I don't like the idea of teams that missed out on qualification getting
in because of their team UEFA coefficient at all.





>
> https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56794673
>

[Blueshirt]

I think these clubs are just playing poker for better deal tomorrow.
(New UEFA CL plans)

If not, then this will surely be strangled at birth by UEFA/FIFA and the
respective leagues affected.

[vedran]

On 18.4.2021. 22:01, anders t wrote:
> Or just negotiation ammo?
>
> I hope the latter.
>
>

Funny that after this news today youtube recommended me this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26a3UH9Rl0U

[Lily White]

Is happenin innit, proper football innit, like back in 1851 wen wees broke away frum de amatours. Wees startin wif 12 teems but weef will expand. Mees lookned at the clubs involved and youse can onestly say on paper weef got de best team innit and should winnit innit.

[Michael Falkner]

On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 1:02:06 PM UTC-7, anders t wrote:
> Or just negotiation ammo?
>
> I hope the latter.

I think it's happening.

I think the big clubs are sick of propping up the clubs which they feel need to die.

Mike

[FF]

Yeah, me too. Though I'm not into football any more. I hope they succeed and create a better system because the governing bodies have basically totally screwed up. They've had their chance, more than enough, and they screwed up. (No wonder given that they have been mostly condemned criminals.) Then again, let's see what these guys will do. If they end up being worse (I mean first of all refereeing and the VAR) I'll change my mind. But at least at first they'll probably want it to be as clean as possible.

Anyway, the format seems OK. Maybe not in theory but in practice, let's face it, they aim to bring together the best 20 clubs in Europe. The 12 already confirmed ones are definitely there. The 3 other permanent ones, my bet, they will be Bayern, Porto and possibly Ajax, or some other german team. Plus the best 5 from the rest of Europe. Seems about right.

I can't wait to see the EPL throwing out Man United, Man City, Liverpool and the other 3. Will anybody care what the outcome will be in such a competition ? Same goes for Spain and Italy. I can't wait to see how FIFA will hold a world cup without Messi, Ronaldo, Salah and all the rest. Plus I read that the ESL has launched legal actions against any such sanctions. This could take years.

Finally, I sincerely hope that these guys will clearly and openly cut the bullshit about equal pay in football. I see they plan to have a women competition at some point. I hope and would advise them against it. How about stating clearly that football is for men, women suck at it and they have no place in it ? They have plenty other sports in which at least they're not painful to watch.

[Ion Saliu]

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 6:33:16 AM UTC+3, Michael Falkner wrote:

Axiomatics:

European Super League (ESL) is an expression of sports economics. It was bound to happen. Actually, it should have happened earlier, given the existence of the American business model in professional sports.

The closest model that comes to mind is the National Hockey League (NHL). It is globalized, although not at the same scale as soccer. There are many players from outside Canada and USA — Russia, former Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Finland, other European countries.

The game performed very poorly up until 10 years back. Hockey was a religion in Canada but vastly ignored in the United States. The television rankings were in the doldrums. The game was way too fragmented. There were no commercial breaks as traditionally in the USA sports. The commercial breaks are the bread and butter of professional sports.

Hockey changed a few rules and instituted obligatory commercial breaks. The game soared business-wise (higher and higher ratings). Even an NBA legend, Charles Barkley, disgusted with after-Jordan basketball, “defected” to NHL! He would attend quite a few hockey games!

Football/soccer is like the old hockey insofar as the business model is concerned. It is a RELIGION alright. However, the TV model is very poor. The game has NO commercial breaks, except for a long one at the half. I reckon only a few “addicts” stay in front of the TV set to watch commercials! They must be drunk or drugged!

ESL could become a big success based on the very global religiosity football/soccer enjoys. But at least one rule should be infused: COMMERCIAL BREAKS. There are many dead moments during the game (e.g. injuries, goalkeepers kicking the ball, delayed throw-ins, etc.)

Another rule they should definitely change: Passing to the goalkeeper IF he is inside the 18-yard box. If it happens, an indirect kick should be awarded to the opponents.

A mandatory commercial break per half could be also implemented — very much like the ‘hydration breaks’ experimented in hot weather. Let the players have a drink of refreshments and get a little rest. They’ll be fresher and surely play better.

O course, ESL will destroy a lot of little-league organizations. It’s all about MONEY! There will still be such “little leaguers” (read: national competitions). There are many minor-league hockey competitions in North America. Also, baseball, basketball, even American football, have “minor-league” competitions.

FIFA and UEFA plan to take very adverse actions against the European Super League (ESL). One action is to ban the ESL players from playing for their respective national teams. I don’t think the players would care about it.

There are soccer players today who announced they “retired” from their national teams. Naturally and obviously, they care about their PROFESSIONAL CAREERS. They make lots of money. Why risk career-ending injuries out of “patriotism”? What do other professions do for the sake of patriotism? Do the plumbers do anything at all as “patriots”?

Most NBA top-players have always been reticent to play for Team USA in basketball Olympics or World Championships. NHL no longer allows the professional players to participate in the Olympic Games during the NHL season.

The soccer players would care as much as the Soviet hockey players who defected to North America. USSR not only banned them from the national team. Worse, the “defectors” were sentenced in absentia to prison terms!

Poor Skatolchah! His/Her Majesty will arrest him on the grounds of playing in the European Super League (ESL)...

“Die Meister!
Die Besten!
The Champions!”

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/european-super-league-updates-live-cmd-spt/index.html

[ixion martin - GdBx]

anders t a utilisé son clavier pour écrire :

> Or just negotiation ammo?
>
> I hope the latter.

https://twitter.com/OllieHolt22/status/1383908680530206725
https://twitter.com/fcsm_eng/status/1383918686302466049

Like them.

--
Ixion
La VAR est une technologie qui a été mise
en place pour envoyer Bordeaux en L2.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:02:06 PM UTC-4, anders t wrote:
> Or just negotiation ammo?
>
> I hope the latter.

Not quite sure what to think of this. First of all, there have been a lot of breakaway threats over the years, some more realistic than others. This time it looks more serious. Is it the end of football? Probably not. The end of football as we know it? Maybe.
FIFA and UEFA have a big ace up their sleeve, which is banning players from international tournaments, which still mean quite a lot for the current crop.

As for the league itself, right now it looks as if going to be a terrible bore, and why would fans want to watch Tottenham and Juve fight it out for the 15th spot. But I have a hunch that soon enough fans will start watching, including the "legacy" fans.
We'll see where that goes.

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Le 19/04/2021, Futbolmetrix a supposé :

> On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:02:06 PM UTC-4, anders t
> wrote:
>> Or just negotiation ammo?
>>
>> I hope the latter.
>
> Not quite sure what to think of this. First of all, there
> have been a lot of breakaway threats over the years, some
> more realistic than others. This time it looks more serious.
> Is it the end of football? Probably not.

No, the end of football started with Bosman and with the C1
system of 1999.

--
Ixion
Bordeaux premier club à remporter la coupe
de France sans jamais jouer à domicile.
A jamais les premiers.

[MH]

I for one will boycott watching such a league if it does actually
happen. I find the "champions'" league tedious enough, especially this
year with no fans.

I have been enjoying rugby a lot more than football this past year.
Partly because Super Rugby Aotearoa has been entertaining and actually
has fans, and partly because the six nations games have been awesome,
and there was suspense right to the very end of each tournament.
Feel a bit sorry for France , though, who have been the best team on
balance over the last two years, but did not win either one - they would
be top of a two year league table, I think.

[Real Mardin]

There has been absolute vitriol against this in the UK, it was even the leading story on the BBC evening news today. As far as I can tell I appear to be the only person in the country who actually has anything good to say about it.

My view is that it is sad it has come to this, but these breakaway teams have by their disproportionate wealth all but made the later stages of the Champions League (and all the riches that are to be found there) their own private playground for quite a while now, may as well let them formalise it.

Some good may actually come from it, if you take these elite teams out of the Champions League you're then left with a competition with a much more level playing field. Imagine a competition where Sevilla, Benfica, Porto, Aston Villa, Bayer Leverkusen, Celtic, Ajax, PSV, Galatasaray, Fenerbahce, Rangers, Zenit St Petersburg, Spartak Moscow, Club Brugge, Anderlecht, Red Bull Salzburg, Rapid Wien, Atalanta, Lazio and the like could compete on a more or less even footing, each entering the tournament with a reasonable prospect of actually winning the title. Could the Super League actually bring about the re-birth of the European Cup?

RM

[Futbolmetrix]

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 4:53:39 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> I for one will boycott watching such a league if it does actually
> happen. I find the "champions'" league tedious enough, especially this
> year with no fans.

Will you actively "boycott" it, or just have no interest? I have a hunch that boycotts will be short lived.

[MH]

That would be nice, but the down side would be trying to hold on to
promising players and build a team when the super league will be
knocking on your door with huge salaries and fees every time you build a
bit of success -- only to let the players languish on the bench. This
was already a problem, and would only get worse. I guess sanctions
against the super league and players in it would inhibit movement in the
run up to world cups (much as the way the All Blacks will only pick
players playing in NZ does), but we have yet to see if such sanctions,
if they come to pass, will be effective.
>
> RM
>

[MH]

No interest but I will not subscribe to any service just to watch it,
and I assume such services will go at a high premium. I suppose if I
were a real fan of any of the teams involved, instead of just having a
fondness for a few of them, I might react differently.

[Werner Pichler]

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:53:39 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
>
> I for one will boycott watching such a league if it does actually
> happen. I find the "champions'" league tedious enough, especially this
> year with no fans.
>
> I have been enjoying rugby a lot more than football this past year.
> Partly because Super Rugby Aotearoa has been entertaining and actually
> has fans, and partly because the six nations games have been awesome,
> and there was suspense right to the very end of each tournament.
> Feel a bit sorry for France , though, who have been the best team on
> balance over the last two years, but did not win either one - they would
> be top of a two year league table, I think.

But in rugby, too, the big clubs have successfully managed to strong-arm the federation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Rugby_Champions_Cup#Disagreements_over_structure_&_governance

And to repeat myself, the prime European example for the breakaway from a federation that resulted
in a successful closed league catering to the big clubs' wishes, is the Basketball EuroLeague
(with, incidentally, Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern participating).

Ciao,
Werner

[juanva...@gmail.com]

I remember a thread of a few years ago, when the FIFA scandal started leading to the Blatter and Platini downfall, that there was mention of an incoming football schism similar to what happened to the Chess Federation in the 90's.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.soccer/c/eGd1oNEntAY/m/FVbKbOn2GTUJ

I think the Super League crisis could lead to a schism of uncalculated proportions and in my opinion, the Super League move is a consequence of endemic corruption in FIFA, UEFA, football and sports in general.

I think these millionaires of the Super League are tired of watching FIFA and UEFA second rate bureaucrats eating a bigger chunk of the cake than they deserve.

Besides the enormous amount of money paid to quite a few players (I do not like to call it salary) was suicidal to the big spenders and big debtors.

While the money is running, there is no problem: you collect and pay, collect and pay, and the circus goes on; but when the money stops by any reason (in this case due to the unexpected pandemic), come the problems.

Viz, the Cirque du Soleil bankruptcy.

It's a kind of the same Ponzi's scheme, that is the Bank's scheme. They pay with the money of other people, but keep an enormous hidden debt.

So, the big debtors see the people on the very well groomed offices of Switzerland sucking their money and think: - Hey, why don't we go without these bureaucrats and their trickeries.

Follow the money.

"The beauty of this is how ugly it's getting" - Popular saying.

[The Doctor]

In article <25b50392-3f0b-417b...@googlegroups.com>,

I oppose a Super LEague.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
When one lacks enemies, one can always make them. -unknown

[FF]

> "why would fans want to watch Tottenham and Juve fight it out for the 15th spot"

Fans would rather watch this instead of Juve and Tottenham going out from the groups and the rest of the CL season they have nothing to watch. Also, instead of Juve fighting mighty Dinamo Zagreb, again in the groups, with no significance whatsoever and the result known beforehand.
It looks practically certain that the new format will generate more interest and money. As for a "more interesting" Champions League without the heavyweights, nonsense. They might as well drop it, it will be UEFA cup version 2. They can enhance the UEFA cup if they want more second-hand matches and teams involved.

It's a smart, reasonable move. As others have noted, the insatisfaction of the big clubs with the bureaucrats has been brewing for quite a while, with good reasons, so they had time enough to think it over. And since they are the ones who actually do the hard work and generate the money, it's their right to do as they please (being of course careful not to ruin things, but they won't do it, it's not in their interest).

[Futbolmetrix]

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 11:02:45 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
>
> And to repeat myself, the prime European example for the breakaway from a federation that resulted
> in a successful closed league catering to the big clubs' wishes, is the Basketball EuroLeague

Well yes, it seems to be modelled exactly after the Basketball EuroLeague: a fixed number of long-term licenses (11 in 2020-2021: Real Madrid, Barcelona, Baskonia, Maccabi Tel Aviv, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, CSKA Moscow, Efes, Fenerbahce, Olimpia Milano, Zalgiris Kaunas) and other short-term licenses awarded on merit.

This has not killed the national championships. In Italy, Olimpia Milano has been the best team over the past 5-6 years, but not overwhelmingly dominant. It has won three championships out of the last 6, but part of the reason for that are playoffs: if I have counted correctly, they have been the regular season champions in 5 of the past 6 years. In fact, part of their recent dominance could be due to their EuroLeague A-license. They have been historically the most successful Italian club, but were in the doldrums throughout most of the 1990s and 2000s. In any case, in the past 6 years the playoff final has featured a bunch of teams that were nowhere near the top of Serie A in the 1980s and 1990s: Venezia (two final appearances, two championships), Sassari (1 finals appearance, 1 championship), Trento (two finals appearances) Reggio Emilia (2 finals appearances) and Siena (1 finals appearance in 2013-2014 in which they lost to Olimpia, breaking a run of seven consecutive championships, the last two of which were revoked because of financial iregularities. They went bankrupt in 2014, regained promotion to Serie A2 in 2019, but went under again in 2019, and no longer exist).

On the other hand, despite its A-license, Olimpia has never been competitive in the EuroLeague, until this year, where they are currently in 4th place in the regular season.

> (with, incidentally, Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern participating).

In contrast to Barca and Real Madrid, european basketball royalty, Bayern Munich are new money, but they seem to be doing quite well this year (currently fifth in the Euroleague).

Anyway, that was a long diversion. My main point is that there is one very large difference between basketball and football. The basketball EuroLeague is maybe the second best basketball league in the world, but it is miles behind the NBA. Maybe the top 5% of players in the Euroleague could get semiregular playing time in the NBA. I expect its global revenue is also miles behind the NBA, and miles behind what a European football superleague could earn. So it's difficult to extrapolate what would happen to the competitiveness of national championships from the basketball example.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> There has been absolute vitriol against this in the UK,

On the other hand, opinions in Italy seem to be much more split. In fact, Juve fans, who I mostly follow, seem generally in favor. Mostly this has to do that we have never really forgiven the rest of the league for Calciopoli, so this is one more way of getting payback.

I haven't gotten a good sense of what Inter and Milan fans think.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 6:51:43 AM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:

> This has not killed the national championships. In Italy,

In Israel, Maccabi Tel Aviv won 23 championships in a row between 1970 and 1992, then 14 more between 1994 and 2007. In 2006 they ditched the best-of-5 format for the final, and instead went to a final-four format (or home-and -away in a couple of seasons). This has resulted in Maccabi dropping 6 championships out of 15, including three in a row between 2015 and 2017, when they didn't even make the final game.

All this while holding a permanent EuroLeague A license.

You want to give the little guys the chance to dream of a title? Switch to a playoff system.

[The Doctor]

In article <46e74d97-e4c6-4b7d...@googlegroups.com>,

UEFA and FIFA better take a stand now on this issue
and well as the domestic leagues!

[Binder Dundat]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 10:17:56 AM UTC-4, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <46e74d97-e4c6-4b7d...@googlegroups.com>,
> FF <FAIRFOOT...@domainsbyproxy.com> wrote:
> >> "why would fans want to watch Tottenham and Juve fight it out for the
> >15th spot"
> >
> >Fans would rather watch this instead of Juve and Tottenham going out
> >from the groups and the rest of the CL season they have nothing to
> >watch. Also, instead of Juve fighting mighty Dinamo Zagreb, again in the
> >groups, with no significance whatsoever and the result known beforehand.
> >It looks practically certain that the new format will generate more
> >interest and money. As for a "more interesting" Champions League without
> >the heavyweights, nonsense. They might as well drop it, it will be UEFA
> >cup version 2. They can enhance the UEFA cup if they want more
> >second-hand matches and teams involved.
> >
> >It's a smart, reasonable move. As others have noted, the insatisfaction
> >of the big clubs with the bureaucrats has been brewing for quite a
> >while, with good reasons, so they had time enough to think it over. And
> >since they are the ones who actually do the hard work and generate the
> >money, it's their right to do as they please (being of course careful
> >not to ruin things, but they won't do it, it's not in their interest).
> UEFA and FIFA better take a stand now on this issue
> and well as the domestic leagues!

Youse bettar douse sumthin kwikly befur Spurs win de ESL and Mr Lily White becomes totally unbearable. Like he said, they got the best team on paper and should win this new superliga thing every year for the foreseeable future.

World Cups are dead, Qatar was the last nail, it is all gonna be like American sports, no relegation and franchises being bought and sold like pork bellies. Rugby is the new sport of the people. I for one welcome our new cauliflowered eared overlords.

Honestly I cant watch american sports, not even NHL anymore, I just cant get interested in it, I kind of hate everything american, it is that whole "The stupid ruling the earth" thing that gets me. Burger king is the finest restaurant in the world, coors light is the best beer, chevrolet the best car etc.. and people believe it.

Also, all three leagues providing teams for this superliga have had Mourinho as a manger, coincidence or teams that have no ethics?

And yeah, like Juan said, Fifa and Uefa caused this with their greed. It is gonna come to South America too, Caracas FC in the SASL.

[Jesus Petry]

Em domingo, 18 de abril de 2021 às 17:02:06 UTC-3, anders t escreveu:
> Or just negotiation ammo?
>
> I hope the latter.

Fear not. Chelsea is about to leave the boat and the others will soon follow.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry

[Jesus Petry]

Oh, and great respect for Milner, who was the first player to speak up against this!

Tchau!
Jesus Petry

[Jesper Lauridsen]

On 2021-04-19, Futbolmetrix <daniele....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As for the league itself, right now it looks as if going to be a
> terrible bore, and why would fans want to watch Tottenham and Juve
> fight it out for the 15th spot.

Getting your anti-W in early.

[anders t]

Quoting anders t in rec.sport.soccer:
>Or just negotiation ammo?
>
>I hope the latter.

It's falling apart!


--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08

[Futbolmetrix]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-4, anders t wrote:
> >
> >I hope the latter.
> It's falling apart!
>

As others have commented, the level of amateurism in launching the whole things with no preparation for the highly predictable blowback is quite staggering.

[Blueshirt]

On 20/04/2021 18:35, Binder Dundat wrote:
>
> Youse bettar douse sumthin kwikly befur Spurs win de ESL and Mr Lily White becomes totally unbearable. Like he said, they got the best team on paper and should win this new superliga thing every year for the foreseeable future.

At the rate the teams are dropping out of the Three Nation "Super"
League, Tottenham will win it every year, as they'll probably be the
only team left in it! :-)

[Blueshirt]

They were only seeing the $$/€€/££... foresight of anything beyond that
was not on their agenda.

[Werner Pichler]

A five-year-old could have predicted what would happen. That highly paid executives didn't is absolutely astonishing.
Florentino Pérez has always been renowned - and vilified - for his shrewdness, ever since becoming president on the back of pulling
off the Luis Figo coup. But looking at this mess he's fully responsible for, you really have to wonder.

Ciao,
Werner

[The Doctor]

In article <e796fba4-673e-4a8a...@googlegroups.com>,

Like ManCHEATING C!

Hopefully Arsenal!

[FF]

> Jesus Petry <jesus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Em domingo, 18 de abril de 2021 às 17:02:06 UTC-3, anders t escreveu:
> >> Or just negotiation ammo?
> >>
> >> I hope the latter.
> >
> > Fear not. Chelsea is about to leave the boat and the others will soon follow.
> >
> > Tchau!
> > Jesus Petry

Well, that was quick. :)
I don't think it's Perez's fault. The 6 english clubs gave their word and then they chickened out when they saw the reactions (which they should have anticipated). Perez tried, as he thought he had to. That's it, the power of western populism is huge, as we well know. Especially in England. That's probably the end of it, they can't do it without the english clubs and I don't expect any more reversals.

Now the bureaucrats supported by the populists will reign supreme. Let's see how the business owners behind the clubs will like it, especially in England. The money has to come from somewhere.

[juanva...@gmail.com]

Between cockcrowing and midnight = "Entre gallos y medianoche"

In the oldest tradition of the Spanish "Pronunciamiento", Don Florentino staged his failed coup d'état in the early morning between Sunday and Monday.

He couldn't wait to stage a press conference at midday, with lots of fanfare and a huge display of audiovisual means.

Huuuuuuge faux pas.

Quel toupet! What a nerve! How gauche! What a farce! Vergogna!

The timing could have not been worse.

But, is this the end of Florentino?

Mind you, he resigned once, in a bad moment for Real Madrid, after the cherry of the cake was a goal by Venezuelan Juan Arango in rainy Sunday at Mallorca. The embarrassment of the century. Real Madrid of the galacticos defeated by a Venezuelan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyW7TTHStpU

After a few years he came back and with a huge checkbook based on debt and on dubious agreements with the government of Madrid, mounting to a subsidy probed by the European Commission, led RM to a string of Champion Leagues.

"It is not over, until it's over". Yogi Berra.


P.S.: FlorenTIMO is trending topic, according to Sport

https://www.sport.es/es/noticias/fuera-de-juego/florentimo-convierte-trending-topic-despues-11670499

TIMO is Spanish for SCAM :-DDD

[The Doctor]

In article <9693a49e-b3ad-448a...@googlegroups.com>,

juanva...@gmail.com <juanva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Between cockcrowing and midnight = "Entre gallos y medianoche"
>

>In the most old tradition of the Spanish "Pronunciamiento", Don

All English interest is quached!

[Michael Falkner]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 9:31:40 PM UTC-7, juanva...@gmail.com wrote:

> But, is this the end of Florentino?

Yes.

And it better also be the end of the owners who tried this. The price for trying to assassinate your professional pyramid and domestic leagues must be made so that no one tries it again.

Mike (Of course, this is also going to be the end of the Engllsh club domination (or at least central nexus) of European club competitions for a while. Because the owners are either going to be out, or many of their players will be. Those owners just lost billions, and perhaps billions APIECE, today.)

[Binder Dundat]

I can not believe it is over before it even began. I was so looking forward to Juve and Spurs fighting it out for 15th spot, now all we have left is Juve and Barca fighting it out for third.

I dont think it was the "legacy fans" backlash (cus the Asian and N American fans loved the idea and they are what are really keeping the WWEpl rich) that cased the swift turnaround, but rather the thought of having to play and losing to Spurs so often in one season.


Power to the People!

[Michael Falkner]

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 8:27:57 AM UTC-7, Binder Dundat wrote:
> I can not believe it is over before it even began. I was so looking forward to Juve and Spurs fighting it out for 15th spot, now all we have left is Juve and Barca fighting it out for third.
>
> I dont think it was the "legacy fans" backlash (cus the Asian and N American fans loved the idea and they are what are really keeping the WWEpl rich) that cased the swift turnaround, but rather the thought of having to play and losing to Spurs so often in one season.

Wasn't The People at all.

It was the FA basically saying if they tried this, that no more work visas would be approved for foreign players.

Mike

[FF]

> Wasn't The People at all.
>
> It was the FA basically saying if they tried this, that no more work visas would be approved for foreign players.

If indeed the FA, or maybe Boris himself, made it clear to the clubs that he's going to go to such lengths, then I wouldn't say the clubs chickened out any more. Basically there was nothing they could do. (Not even threatening to sue under european law since Britain isn't in the EU any more :) ). Then it was just the case that they tried it because they needed to (and it's quite obvious the english clubs wanted it too, probably more than Real, regardless of what they're saying now), they saw it couldn't be done and backed out. That's it, life sucks sometimes (most of the times), even for the big guys. As said, we'll see what the long-term consequences will be. The big clubs are clearly not OK with the current situation, now probably even less than before.
Bayern were smart this time. :) They waited first for a few days before committing, to see what happens.

[Werner Pichler]

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 12:22:14 AM UTC+2, Werner Pichler wrote:
>
> Florentino Pérez has always been renowned - and vilified - for his shrewdness, ever since becoming president on the back of pulling
> off the Luis Figo coup. But looking at this mess he's fully responsible for, you really have to wonder.

Actually he's coming across now as slightly unhinged.

Ciao,
Werner

[juanva...@gmail.com]

No, I think he's not coming across "slightly" unhinged.

The wrinkles on the sides of his face look very much deeper or is it my imagination?

I guess that the man has several days without sleep.

[MH]

I am glad this has fallen out as it has, but it still makes me wonder:

Where were all these fans when the changes to the CL rules and the
amount of money involved more or less made it into a closed shop already ?

Were some of these players not those who moved clubs because they "had
to have" champions league football* ? - a sentiment that must have given
some encouragement to the owners/club presidents who pushed this plan.

* I view this argument with a great deal of taste because it is at least
partially insincere. Some of it is almost definitely about money. And
if players genuinely wanted regular CL football they would be better off
going to Ajax or Porto than some of the heavyweights in the EPL, La
Liga, or Serie A. I mean how many CL matches, on average, does a
player who is in the top 16, but not necessarily the first 11, of a team
like City, Chelsea, or bayern actually get in a year - maybe 4 if you
add up all the minutes ? (wild guess, taking into account not starting
two group games, being rested in the final two group games, and going
out in the QF).

[Werner Pichler]

On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:16:05 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
> On 2021-04-22 01:31, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 12:22:14 AM UTC+2, Werner Pichler wrote:
> >>
> >> Florentino Pérez has always been renowned - and vilified - for his shrewdness, ever since becoming president on the back of pulling
> >> off the Luis Figo coup. But looking at this mess he's fully responsible for, you really have to wonder.
> >
> > Actually he's coming across now as slightly unhinged.
> >
< >
> >

> I am glad this has fallen out as it has, but it still makes me wonder:
>
> Where were all these fans when the changes to the CL rules and the
> amount of money involved more or less made it into a closed shop already ?

Those changes were applied piecemeal and since the big countries never stood to lose anything they were mostly
ignored there. All this stuff I like about UEFA coefficient battles and so on is featured in the media, at most, in
countries like Austria, Belgium, Denmark, or the Netherlands, and hardly ever in Spain, England or Italy. In fact, the few
articles you do find about it in those countries are often woefully uninformed.

Also, this is a different divide (Big Leagues/Smaller Leagues) than the one that led the Dirty Dozen to try and split.
After all, everyone in the PL stands to benefit if they get more direct CL spots. This year it could be West Ham, for example,
so why should they complain? But they'd definitely have been left in the lurch if the SuperLeague plans had gone through,
and therefore the uproar.

I also absolutely agree that there's an ironic overlap between those fans who complain bitterly on Twitter why
the cheapsters at their club won't buy Mbappé for 200m, and those who have now deplored the SuperLeague.
But I think one of the miscalculations of the Dirty Dozen was that they assumed people only ever want the high-profile
games (Pérez: 'if Nadal plays the number 80 in the world, nobody watches'). Rather, what fans of super clubs enjoy,
and have become used to, is winning every other week (and if they don't it's immediately 'crisis'), and they can't do that
in a SuperLeague setting. Nadal, to *be* Nadal, needs to beat lesser players on the way to the big final. It can't be just
one big final after the other all the time.

(incidentally, another disappointing feature of the SuperLeague was just how uninspired crap the proposed format was)

> Were some of these players not those who moved clubs because they "had
> to have" champions league football* ? - a sentiment that must have given
> some encouragement to the owners/club presidents who pushed this plan.
>
> * I view this argument with a great deal of taste because it is at least
> partially insincere. Some of it is almost definitely about money. And
> if players genuinely wanted regular CL football they would be better off
> going to Ajax or Porto than some of the heavyweights in the EPL, La
> Liga, or Serie A. I mean how many CL matches, on average, does a
> player who is in the top 16, but not necessarily the first 11, of a team
> like City, Chelsea, or bayern actually get in a year - maybe 4 if you
> add up all the minutes ? (wild guess, taking into account not starting
> two group games, being rested in the final two group games, and going
> out in the QF).

Playing in the CL is not enough. Playing in the CL and *winning* is where it's at.


BTW I'll come out and say it: I like UEFA's new 'Swiss model' CL and think it's better than the old group stages.
Just get rid of the ridiculous Wildcard spots (which I believe could happen now, and would never have happened
before the SuperLeague débâcle) and I'm reasonably content.


Ciao,
Werner

[juanva...@gmail.com]

I think Florentino is out of touch with the youngsters’ trends.

If he had set TikTok, Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, Telegram and Twitter accounts, bought a few million followers, view, clicks and likes; launched a huge campaign hiring Russian bots and hackers; the result would be very different and the Super League would be very well on its tracks.

But he is 74 and knows nothing about millennials and snowflakes.

OTH, maybe a well advised Florentino would propose soon a new European Super League format with matches of say, 6 innings of ten minutes each, with 5 minute intervals, in which a team attacks and the other defends in the first part of the inning and vice versa in the second part of the inning. The duration of the matches would be around 90 minutes altogether.

That will give TV enough time for a lot of advertisements in between each part of an inning and between innings, just like in baseball.

Each team will have a group of eight specialist attacking players and a group of four specialist defending players, which will not be at the same time on the turf. The difference between the number of attacking and defending players will have a positive effect on higher scores. No more 0-0, 1-1, 2-2 and the like. We are talking about 42-23, 57-35 scores for example.

The smaller grounds can save a lot of space and they could be half the size of the current ones.

The stadia should grow higher, but saving ground level space for development of other facilities around the playing field, like karting tracks, casinos, virtual reality video arcades, FIFA PES competitions, puticlubs and other entertainments for younger people, while the elderly people would watch "traditional" football smoking cigars and drinking Scotch whisky in the VIP boxes.


"The future ain't what it used to be". Yogi Berra.

[MH]

On 2021-04-22 09:54, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:16:05 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
>> On 2021-04-22 01:31, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 12:22:14 AM UTC+2, Werner Pichler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Florentino Pérez has always been renowned - and vilified - for his shrewdness, ever since becoming president on the back of pulling
>>>> off the Luis Figo coup. But looking at this mess he's fully responsible for, you really have to wonder.
>>>
>>> Actually he's coming across now as slightly unhinged.
>>>
> < >
>>>
>> I am glad this has fallen out as it has, but it still makes me wonder:
>>
>> Where were all these fans when the changes to the CL rules and the
>> amount of money involved more or less made it into a closed shop already ?
>
>
> Those changes were applied piecemeal and since the big countries never stood to lose anything they were mostly
> ignored there.

Yeah, true.
Their effect has perhaps been most negative in places like Austria,
Scotland, Belgium, Turkey and (maybe to a lesser extent) the
Netherlands. (thinking about 1990s as most recent point of reference
before expansion to more than one entry per league in the late 90s).
Especially with the changes to bonus points, it is very hard to break
into the upper echelons and stay there.

All this stuff I like about UEFA coefficient battles and so on is
featured in the media, at most, in
> countries like Austria, Belgium, Denmark, or the Netherlands, and hardly ever in Spain, England or Italy. In fact, the few
> articles you do find about it in those countries are often woefully uninformed.
>
> Also, this is a different divide (Big Leagues/Smaller Leagues) than the one that led the Dirty Dozen to try and split.
> After all, everyone in the PL stands to benefit if they get more direct CL spots. This year it could be West Ham, for example,
> so why should they complain? But they'd definitely have been left in the lurch if the SuperLeague plans had gone through,
> and therefore the uproar.

I don't get how anyone thought that the Superleague could function while
allowing its members to stay in their national leagues, playing on
weekends there. But I never did see any report that mentioned the
proposed format. Will have to look harder for that.

>
> I also absolutely agree that there's an ironic overlap between those fans who complain bitterly on Twitter why
> the cheapsters at their club won't buy Mbappé for 200m, and those who have now deplored the SuperLeague.

Yup.

> But I think one of the miscalculations of the Dirty Dozen was that they assumed people only ever want the high-profile
> games (Pérez: 'if Nadal plays the number 80 in the world, nobody watches'). Rather, what fans of super clubs enjoy,
> and have become used to, is winning every other week (and if they don't it's immediately 'crisis'), and they can't do that
> in a SuperLeague setting. Nadal, to *be* Nadal, needs to beat lesser players on the way to the big final. It can't be just
> one big final after the other all the time.

Agreed. I have watched less football than usual this last year. Partly
too busy, partly because I get bored (having fans really does do
something). But on the whole I have been more entertained with EPL
games featuring aspiring teams like Leeds or Villa or even Southampton
on a good day than the games in the CL (especially the average group
stage game). But then again I have never been a big fan of the CL.

>
> (incidentally, another disappointing feature of the SuperLeague was just how uninspired crap the proposed format was)
>
>
>> Were some of these players not those who moved clubs because they "had
>> to have" champions league football* ? - a sentiment that must have given
>> some encouragement to the owners/club presidents who pushed this plan.
>>
>> * I view this argument with a great deal of taste because it is at least
>> partially insincere. Some of it is almost definitely about money. And
>> if players genuinely wanted regular CL football they would be better off
>> going to Ajax or Porto than some of the heavyweights in the EPL, La
>> Liga, or Serie A. I mean how many CL matches, on average, does a
>> player who is in the top 16, but not necessarily the first 11, of a team
>> like City, Chelsea, or bayern actually get in a year - maybe 4 if you
>> add up all the minutes ? (wild guess, taking into account not starting
>> two group games, being rested in the final two group games, and going
>> out in the QF).
>
> Playing in the CL is not enough. Playing in the CL and *winning* is where it's at.
>



>
> BTW I'll come out and say it: I like UEFA's new 'Swiss model' CL and think it's better than the old group stages.

You will get no argument from me on that. It makes individual games less
likely to be meaningless (at least for most of the table if Europa
league places are still at stake (are they ?). The larger number of
games, all against different opponents, is also a plus.

Negatives would only be for travelling supporters, who presumably could
not plan holidays in advance to the extent that they currently do (my
cousin in Glasgow actually does this)

> Just get rid of the ridiculous Wildcard spots (which I believe could happen now, and would never have happened
> before the SuperLeague débâcle) and I'm reasonably content.

Agreed here as well
>
>
> Ciao,
> Werner
>

[juanva...@gmail.com]

I would like to see a composite ranking or graph of European clubs taking into account money spent versus points and trophies gained in domestic and international competitions.

Florentino says that it is not acceptable that small teams earn money, while big and “successful” clubs lose money.

I smell a contradiction here. If a club or an enterprise loses money, it is not successful. When Florentino says Real Madrid is in ruins, it is something like the fireman who steps on his hose or the guy who shoots himself on the foot.

It should be easier to be successful with a gross checkbook than with limited resources.

That is the principle behind the salary caps. In some fantasy football games you have a limited budget and that levels the ground for all participants.

That is also the principle behind sports like boxing, where the athletes fight in equal weight categories.

Maybe Futbolmetrix or Ion could help on the ranking/graph.

[MH]

On 2021-04-22 13:26, juanva...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I would like to see a composite ranking or graph of European clubs taking into account money spent versus points and trophies gained in domestic and international competitions.
>
> Florentino says that it is not acceptable that small teams earn money, while big and “successful” clubs lose money.
>
> I smell a contradiction here. If a club or an enterprise loses money, it is not successful. When Florentino says Real Madrid is in ruins, it is something like the fireman who steps on his hose or the guy who shoots himself on the foot.

It seems especially hypocritical in Spain where the allocation of TV
money is, as I understand it, far less distributional and fair than in
the EPL for example.

Anyway, the solution to stop the bleeding of money is easy for big
clubs. Sell a few players, let a few contracts expire, don't make
expensive signings for a year or two - and presto ! Not even a very
risky strategy given that the top leagues get so much guaranteed
participation in the lucrative CL - finishing 4th or higher is not a
huge challenge for Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern, even if you cut back
their squads a bit with no new high-profile signings (eg. Modric, Kroos,
Ramos, Marcelo out - all getting long in the tooth anyway)

[Ion Saliu]

Don Juan:

Axiomático, thanks for your reading my scribblings. I was an avid futbol player — as a kid only. I was also a big fan BEFORE my moving to America. Football/soccer is a BORE, compared to American pro sports. Socc is prone to ‘for-result-only’ mode. American sports are a lot more action-inclined.

Anyhow, back to my point in my previous post here. Sporting events became BIG-BUSINESS in the television era. Sports became even bigger during the Cold War. Communism low-and-beheld Olympic sports, while Capitalism boasted professional sports.

Communism is dead now and the pro sports prevailed. Nadias are nothing, Messis are everything — at least in Europe. The 30-year gap in sports professionalism put the pro sports in former Communist countries out of the picture of high competition. Teams from the defunct system will never count, for all intents and purposes. If 1–1 on the road, it’s very likely to expect a 0-4 at home. MONEY DOES COUNT!

Looks like that ESL lived two days only. Don’t mourn the infant! The wildfire started! This form of an SSL (Soccer Super League) is here to stay. It’ll come back to fruition, axiomáticas/axiomáticos, axiomatics, axiomatischen, assiomatice/assiomatici, axiomatiques et al.!

It'll be the same form, only different... or, should I say, the same difference?

How about an International Futbol Super Liga (IFSL) headquartered in South America? Just take the best South American footballers from the grandiose European Super Clubs? HUH? How about them players of Afrikan descent? What would be left in UEFA at this point in time? A few top players from former Yugoslavia...

There are teams in the English Premier League with NO Englishmen in the starting lineups. There will be no Spaniards in the starting lineups of them grandiosos (?!) LaLiga teams.

So, you ManCHEETERs talk about an ESL dislodging your patriotism?! Fuck you! ESL might as well reinstall your national prowess in da game you invented.

The first English team who won the European club title consisted only of Shakespeares. It ain’t talking racism here. When I say ‘English teams consisting of Englishmen only’ I refer to persons like Shakespeare; or, in LaLiga, Spaniards looking like Cervantes; or, in Bundesliga, Germans looking like Hitler... bad joke... persons looking like Wagner...

The best-case scenario of rediscovered national prowess in soccer is Johannes Cruijff’s Ajax Amsterdam. Everyone was a ‘Flying Dutch” (i.e. looking like Rembrandt). What is Ajax Amsterdam now? The Americans call it a FARM (sports-wise).

Playing in South America, their native culture, would be a lot more palatable to the South American football players. Even racism would be diminished. Players of African descent would feel a lot better in a less-racist culture.

And the money could be as big as in Europe. The time zone would be less favo(u)rable to TV-watching in Europe. But the time zone would be far more favorable to TV ratings in the largest market of the world: US of A.

Nevertheless, Europe is the fertile ground for a soccer Super League. The UE Continent already has the biggest clubs where the best players of the world play. Besides, the Big Clubs already entered compelling financial contracts. Already at a loss, the Big Clubs would have to pay damages worth possibly billions of dollars (per total). It ain’t easy to skip contracts on the basis of “patriotic” blackmail.

The only bad thing with ESL was the FORMAT. They can’t have “INVITED” teams. It is extremely hard only with “PERMANENT” teams. How would the “invitees” go back and forth from ESL to national leagues and vice versa?! ESL can only function with the same number of teams; let’s say, 16. Play 30 regular games like any league. Then, the top-8 go to the real playoffs — 1 versus 8, 2 vs 7, 3 v 6, 4 vs 5; and so on, as in Champions League.

Plenty of games between the Big-16 Clubs every year. Very importantly, American speaking, exclusive TV contracts between ESL and TV broadcasters. It would be more expensive, but the TV commercials would bring in significantly more dough.

And, yes, Don Juan, axiomático, the TV advertising model must be changed. The largely boring game of soccer has way too many ‘dead moments’. Fill ’em up with TV commercials. I ain’t seen that on UEFA TV. However, I’ve watched experiments on Romanian TV. They fill up dead moments in soccer games with POP-UP TV commercials. The TV commercials are not only about SPORTS BETTING — at least 95% of all TV commercials in soccer broadcasting. I’ve seen pop-up TV commercials for other products/services.

"I received a phone call
From one who claimed was tall;
Then, he cursed me even worse
For my gambling on the horse."

Ion Saliu (royalty-name: Parpaluck)
The best football player ever (who never played professionally)

[Ion Saliu]

My opinion has never changed. It overlasted Communism. European football/soccer is a dirty political game à la Europe. It is led by a bunch of belligerent assholes. The Continent created the Philosophy of War. It’ll never lack pugnacious AHs.

Of course, the corrupted-stinky UEFA will always oppose any form of challenge:

https://www.gsp.ro/international/campionate/ceferin-salariu-uefa-630061.html

"I received a phone call
From one who claimed was tall;
Then, he cursed me even worse
For my gambling on the horse."

(Curiously, one of the numbers that called have restrictive callbacks!)

[Michael Falkner]

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 6:34:53 PM UTC-7, FF wrote:
> > Wasn't The People at all.
> >
> > It was the FA basically saying if they tried this, that no more work visas would be approved for foreign players.
> If indeed the FA, or maybe Boris himself, made it clear to the clubs that he's going to go to such lengths, then I wouldn't say the clubs chickened out any more. Basically there was nothing they could do. (Not even threatening to sue under european law since Britain isn't in the EU any more :) ). Then it was just the case that they tried it because they needed to (and it's quite obvious the english clubs wanted it too, probably more than Real, regardless of what they're saying now), they saw it couldn't be done and backed out. That's it, life sucks sometimes (most of the times), even for the big guys. As said, we'll see what the long-term consequences will be. The big clubs are clearly not OK with the current situation, now probably even less than before.

I think it's clear that the owners believe the system is dead and don't want to be responsible for the success of the rest of the professional pyramid.

Mike

[Michael Falkner]

The question about a World Super League in the Western Hemisphere/South America is whether they could get the big Euro players to leave their clubs for such an effort.

Mike

[FF]

Perez says the project continues, and that the english clubs cannot leave, they have binding contracts. What's he going to do, sue them ? I don't think so. It might get interesting, or not.

[FF]

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 5:26:20 PM UTC+3, MH wrote:
> On 2021-04-22 13:26, juanva...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I smell a contradiction here. If a club or an enterprise loses money, it is not successful. When Florentino says Real Madrid is in ruins, it is something like the fireman who steps on his hose or the guy who shoots himself on the foot.
> It seems especially hypocritical in Spain where the allocation of TV
> money is, as I understand it, far less distributional and fair than in
> the EPL for example.

There is no contradiction. A club like Real is successful in building a strong team, playing top quality football, beating everybody else, winning big trophies and thus attracting a lot of TV audience (leaving aside the matter of wrongful results for now). Then UEFA or the EPL or whoever comes and takes the money and gives a tiny share to Real and a big share to many clubs that haven't actually earned it. That's what Perez says and he has a point, if you want to get it. Now, of course, the objection is that there cannot be a top of the pyramid if there is no pyramid. OK, this can be discussed. Perez and the other big club owners think that the bureaucrats are overbearing and it isn't acceptable any more. The others obviously don't. It's probably a little more complicated than that, but to just say that "If a club or an enterprise loses money, it is not successful" is way too simplistic.

> Anyway, the solution to stop the bleeding of money is easy for big
> clubs. Sell a few players, let a few contracts expire, don't make
> expensive signings for a year or two - and presto ! Not even a very
> risky strategy given that the top leagues get so much guaranteed
> participation in the lucrative CL - finishing 4th or higher is not a
> huge challenge for Real Madrid, Barca or Bayern, even if you cut back
> their squads a bit with no new high-profile signings (eg. Modric, Kroos,
> Ramos, Marcelo out - all getting long in the tooth anyway)

Right. Let's destroy the strong performant teams so that in the end there is even less money in the system. Great solution.
There are no easy ways in this matter.

[juanva...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 25 April 2021 at 16:31:55 UTC+3, FF wrote:
> On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 5:26:20 PM UTC+3, MH wrote:

> > On 2021-04-22 13:26, juan..@com wrote:
> > >
> > > I smell a contradiction here. If a club or an enterprise loses money, it is not successful. When Florentino says Real Madrid is in ruins, it is something like the fireman who steps on his hose or the guy who shoots himself on the foot.
> > It seems especially hypocritical in Spain where the allocation of TV
> > money is, as I understand it, far less distributional and fair than in
> > the EPL for example.
> There is no contradiction. A club like Real is successful in building a strong team, playing top quality football, beating everybody else, winning big trophies and thus attracting a lot of TV audience (leaving aside the matter of wrongful results for now). Then UEFA or the EPL or whoever comes and takes the money and gives a tiny share to Real and a big share to many clubs that haven't actually earned it. That's what Perez says and he has a point, if you want to get it. Now, of course, the objection is that there cannot be a top of the pyramid if there is no pyramid. OK, this can be discussed. Perez and the other big club owners think that the bureaucrats are overbearing and it isn't acceptable any more. The others obviously don't. It's probably a little more complicated than that, but to just say that "If a club or an enterprise loses money, it is not successful" is >way too simplistic.

I see it as simple, not simplistic.

When Real Madrid started a project, say, a few years ago, they knew the constraints and conditions of the field in which they were. Of course, the pandemic changed many things, but they are not blaming the pandemic as the cause of their problems. They blame UEFA and FIFA.

Knowing that UEFA and FIFA took a bigger chunk of the cake than they deserve, these clubs continued spending money like mad.

Real Madrid won four Champions League in five years with an unlimited amount of money, enormous debts and subsidies from the government when they changed the legal sport use of the land around Bernabeu Stadium so that they could develop the area as residential; pocketing a huge amount of money. This is or was under investigation by the European Commission.

Someone in the press said something like "...instead of six Lamborghinis for the players, they want to give them seven".

They were losing money, they bet on a coup d'état, the coup failed and consequentially they are going to lose more money, to me they are not successful.

But, maybe losing money is a way to be successful... if you convince other people to buy your shares on the expectation that sometime in the future they will become more valuable.

That is the business model of Uber, Theranos and others.

[FF]

OK, so you're saying the main blame for their losing money is their own for overspending and overborrowing.
Maybe it is, I can't argue with you on this point.
Perez said something about the pandemic too. And you have to admit it's a good excuse for trying the thing now.

The thing is, it's not just Real. As it looks, most big clubs including the big 6 in England (or should I say, especially the big 6) are in more or less the same situation, considering that they were willing to risk the backlash (not knowing it would be that big but still expecting a heavy one).
Regardless who's to blame, I find it abusive that if these clubs want to have a european league, they aren't allowed. In itself the idea seems a good one. The best 20 clubs in Europe compete in a league. Sounds good. And it seems they think it will generate more money, and I haven't seen anybody dispute this point.
As for how the money should and will be shared, I'm inclined to give the lion share to the clubs who do the actual work. But maybe this is also a little too simplistic. In the end, it's their problem and they should be able to get to a reasonable compromise. I favor the club owners against the bureaucrats, especially since I have no sympathy at all for what they've done with football so far. But that's just me.

[FF]

On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 5:43:25 PM UTC+3, juanva...@gmail.com wrote:

> They were losing money, they bet on a coup d'état, the coup failed and consequentially they are going to lose more money, to me they are not successful.

It's not really a coup d'etat. UEFA is a private entity. It's more like, I did business with you because at that time it was the best alternative I had; now I don't like it any more and I have better alternatives so bye bye. And it doesn't seem to be illegal, at least I haven't heard of anybody saying they will be sued, it's them who threatened with going to court. What I don't like is when the state (in our case England) comes and threatens to impose abusive laws to keep the current state of things going. Even if it's backed by the public. Smells heavily like demagogic dictatorship.
Of course, there is the very important issue of the good of football in general. If I trusted the bureaucrats with it, it would be one thing, but I don't. So in the end I still (doubtfully) favor the clubs.

[Werner Pichler]

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 12:22:14 AM UTC+2, Werner Pichler wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 10:22:10 PM UTC+2, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-4, anders t wrote:
> > > >
> > > >I hope the latter.
> > > It's falling apart!
> > >
> > As others have commented, the level of amateurism in launching the whole things with no preparation for the highly predictable blowback is quite staggering.
> A five-year-old could have predicted what would happen. That highly paid executives didn't is absolutely astonishing.

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1390306839942860801


Ciao,
Werner

> Florentino Pérez has always been renowned - and vilified - for his shrewdness, ever since becoming president on the back of pulling
> off the Luis Figo coup. But looking at this mess he's fully responsible for, you really have to wonder.
>

> Ciao,
> Werner

[Werner Pichler]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 2:32:20 PM UTC+2, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> > There has been absolute vitriol against this in the UK,
>
> On the other hand, opinions in Italy seem to be much more split. In fact, Juve fans, who I mostly follow, seem generally in favor.

What about now that the tide has turned, but Real, Barça and Juve seem still willing to take UEFA head-on?
Is that a hill Juve fans would be willing to die on? (i.e. risk a European ban)

Ciao,
Werner


> Mostly this has to do that we have never really forgiven the rest of the league for Calciopoli, so this is one more way of getting payback.
>
> I haven't gotten a good sense of what Inter and Milan fans think.

[Blueshirt]

On 08/05/2021 15:01, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 2:32:20 PM UTC+2, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>> On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
>>> There has been absolute vitriol against this in the UK,
>>
>> On the other hand, opinions in Italy seem to be much more split. In fact, Juve fans, who I mostly follow, seem generally in favor.
>
> What about now that the tide has turned, but Real, Barça and Juve seem still willing to take UEFA head-on?
> Is that a hill Juve fans would be willing to die on? (i.e. risk a European ban)

I doubt UEFA actually has the balls to ban Real Madrid, Barcelona and
Juventus!

[Futbolmetrix]

On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 10:01:01 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

> What about now that the tide has turned, but Real, Barça and Juve seem still willing to take UEFA head-on?

There was a bit of uncertainty at the beginning when people didn't have a good grasp of what the whole enterprise would entail. Now that the whole affair has become an "us versus them" thing, Juve fans have closed ranks and become even more pro-SuperLeague.

I have seen some isolated calls for Agnelli to resign, but this is more about the political fiasco of the SuperLeague collapse and

> Is that a hill Juve fans would be willing to die on? (i.e. risk a European ban)

As Blueshirt says, this seems a bit like an empty threat by UEFA. But an actual SuperLeague would almost completely kill off UEFA's main source of revenue (the Champions League), so they may be desperate enough to incur a very large short-term cost just to fight it off, and deter future attempts.

[Werner Pichler]

Oh I don't think for a moment that UEFA won't give them a million outs to avoid that outcome, but if those three insist on being banned I believe they will be.
Especially between Čeferin and Agnelli it's become personal.

Ciao,
Werner

[Werner Pichler]

On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 8:57:14 PM UTC+2, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> On Saturday, May 8, 2021 at 10:01:01 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
>
> > What about now that the tide has turned, but Real, Barça and Juve seem still willing to take UEFA head-on?
>
> There was a bit of uncertainty at the beginning when people didn't have a good grasp of what the whole enterprise would entail. Now that the whole affair has become an "us versus them" thing, Juve fans have
> closed ranks and become even more pro-SuperLeague.

With the English teams having definitely dropped out, it begs the question - you and what army?

Ciao,
Werner

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:40:50 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

> With the English teams having definitely dropped out, it begs the question - you and what army?
>

They said quite clearly when everybody started folding that the project would not take place right now. But it's quite likely that the idea will resurface again. Keeping the option open can still be used as a bargaining chip (albeit a pretty weak one)

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:40:15 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

> Oh I don't think for a moment that UEFA won't give them a million outs to avoid that outcome, but if those three insist on being banned I believe they will be.
> Especially between Čeferin and Agnelli it's become personal.

It has become so personal that Juve has decided not to qualify for the CL anyway just so that he can't ban us!

(football sucks, by the way)

[Werner Pichler]

Milan have done that before you know, preferring serving a ban to playing Europa League.

Ciao,
Werner

[Bruce Scott]

On 2021-04-20, Jesus Petry <jesus...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, and great respect for Milner, who was the first player to speak
> up against this!

In Germany, practically everybody immediately went public against it.
KHR (Bayern) followed by the DFL (who pointed out these big clubs have
no reasonable business model... all are in killer debt), and then,
after their fans forced them, Borussia Dortmund. But for whatever
reasons they did it, I was happy Bayern were so loud so soon.

--
ciao, Bruce

ps OTOH, there is the CL reform, which KHR has been pushing...

[Michael Falkner]

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 2:25:10 PM UTC-7, Futbolmetrix wrote:

> It has become so personal that Juve has decided not to qualify for the CL anyway just so that he can't ban us!
>
> (football sucks, by the way)

I would not 100% rule out that being intentional.

Juve is being thrown out of Serie A unless they renounce.

Mike

[Futbolmetrix]

Quickie SuperLeague update:

- All the UEFA talk about severely punishing the rebels was for naught. A Spanish court ordered UEFA to drop all legal actions against Barca, Real and Juve.

- Juve did qualify for the CL (thank you, Weaufx Gods). But they are starting the season without any reinforcements in midfield, and with Daniele "already over the hill at 27 years old" Rugani likely to play substantial minutes in the back. This doesn't look good. Inter is in disarray, but I wouldn't be too shocked if Atalanta mounts a serious scudetto challenge. As for the CL, realistically anything beyond should be viewed as a massive achievement.

- Good thing that Real Football (tm) was spared from the evils of the SuperLeague. Now we have PSG buying Donnarumma, Hakimi and Wijnaldum, Chelsea paying 130m for Lukaku, ManCity splurging 100m for Jack Grealish (how much for Kane?), and Bayern raiding their rivals' best players for peanuts. Football back to the people, indeed...

[Bruce Scott]

On 2021-08-05, Futbolmetrix <daniele....@gmail.com> wrote:

> - Good thing that Real Football (tm) ...

Freising are on a good roll in the Landesliga Sud (Bayern, 6th Div.)
Real Football is back!

--
ciao, Bruce

[Real Mardin]

On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 4:29:02 PM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:

> - Good thing that Real Football (tm) was spared from the evils of the SuperLeague. Now we have PSG buying Donnarumma, Hakimi and Wijnaldum, Chelsea paying 130m for Lukaku, ManCity splurging 100m for Jack Grealish (how much for Kane?), and Bayern raiding their rivals' best players for peanuts. Football back to the people, indeed...

Exactly this. What the ridiculous outrage at the Super League proposal failed to acknowledge is that for years we've already had what is effectively a Super League of mega rich clubs dominating the later stages of the Champions League. It could have freshened up the Champions League having them breakaway.

It was also ironic to hear the critics dismiss the idea as being fueled by greed, when we all know the Champions League itself was devised to increase tv and gate receipt revenues for already rich clubs.

RM

[Blueshirt]

On 05/08/2021 16:29, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>
> Quickie SuperLeague update:

The European SuperLeague is a dead now as it was when it was announced.

Move along please... nothing here to see...

[Ion Saliu]

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 2:49:26 PM UTC+3, Ion Saliu wrote:
> On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 6:33:16 AM UTC+3, Michael Falkner wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 1:02:06 PM UTC-7, anders t wrote:
> > > Or just negotiation ammo?
> > >
> > > I hope the latter.
> > I think it's happening.
> >
> > I think the big clubs are sick of propping up the clubs which they feel need to die.
> >
> > Mike
> Axiomatics:
>
> European Super League (ESL) is an expression of sports economics. It was bound to happen. Actually, it should have happened earlier, given the existence of the American business model in professional sports.
>
> The closest model that comes to mind is the National Hockey League (NHL). It is globalized, although not at the same scale as soccer. There are many players from outside Canada and USA — Russia, former Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Finland, other European countries.
>
> The game performed very poorly up until 10 years back. Hockey was a religion in Canada but vastly ignored in the United States. The television rankings were in the doldrums. The game was way too fragmented. There were no commercial breaks as traditionally in the USA sports. The commercial breaks are the bread and butter of professional sports.
>
> Hockey changed a few rules and instituted obligatory commercial breaks. The game soared business-wise (higher and higher ratings). Even an NBA legend, Charles Barkley, disgusted with after-Jordan basketball, “defected” to NHL! He would attend quite a few hockey games!
>
> Football/soccer is like the old hockey insofar as the business model is concerned. It is a RELIGION alright. However, the TV model is very poor. The game has NO commercial breaks, except for a long one at the half. I reckon only a few “addicts” stay in front of the TV set to watch commercials! They must be drunk or drugged!
>
> ESL could become a big success based on the very global religiosity football/soccer enjoys. But at least one rule should be infused: COMMERCIAL BREAKS. There are many dead moments during the game (e.g. injuries, goalkeepers kicking the ball, delayed throw-ins, etc.)
>
> Another rule they should definitely change: Passing to the goalkeeper IF he is inside the 18-yard box. If it happens, an indirect kick should be awarded to the opponents.
>
> A mandatory commercial break per half could be also implemented — very much like the ‘hydration breaks’ experimented in hot weather. Let the players have a drink of refreshments and get a little rest. They’ll be fresher and surely play better.
>
> O course, ESL will destroy a lot of little-league organizations. It’s all about MONEY! There will still be such “little leaguers” (read: national competitions). There are many minor-league hockey competitions in North America. Also, baseball, basketball, even American football, have “minor-league” competitions.
>
> FIFA and UEFA plan to take very adverse actions against the European Super League (ESL). One action is to ban the ESL players from playing for their respective national teams. I don’t think the players would care about it.
>
> There are soccer players today who announced they “retired” from their national teams. Naturally and obviously, they care about their PROFESSIONAL CAREERS. They make lots of money. Why risk career-ending injuries out of “patriotism”? What do other professions do for the sake of patriotism? Do the plumbers do anything at all as “patriots”?
>
> Most NBA top-players have always been reticent to play for Team USA in basketball Olympics or World Championships. NHL no longer allows the professional players to participate in the Olympic Games during the NHL season.
>
> The soccer players would care as much as the Soviet hockey players who defected to North America. USSR not only banned them from the national team. Worse, the “defectors” were sentenced in absentia to prison terms!
>
> Poor Skatolchah! His/Her Majesty, Frau EU, et al. will arrest him on the grounds of playing in the European Super League (ESL)... BTW - He and other greats play now in the football league of Saudi Arabia!!!
>
> “Die Meister!
> Die Besten!
> The Champions!”
>
> https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/european-super-league-updates-live-cmd-spt/index.html

A major development! Read it in Google-Groups-Usenet… while it lasts!

• https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.soccer/c/W4YAydutrKM
• UNLAWFUL: UEFA and FIFA Ban on ‘European Super League’ (2023)

[Real_Mardin]

So to summarise A22's revised plans for a European Super League:


1) Three divisions Star (16 teams), Gold (16 teams), Blue (32 teams)

2) All divisions divided into groups of eight, teams play home and away.

3) Each division will have an end of season knockout round with 8 clubs competing for the championship.

4) There will be promotion and relegation between the three leagues. Promotion into the Blue Division is based on performance in the domestic leagues.

5) Following on from the above - there are no permanent members and appointment to the league is based on sporting merit.

6) Participating clubs still remain in their domestic leagues.

7) All matches to be broadcast free of charge on the ESL's Unity streaming platform.


I think there should be enough there to address the concerns of people who protested against the original Super League proposal on the grounds that the domestic football leagues would be diminished or that permanent members made it anti competitive. Matches being broadcast for free should win a few over too and takes away the argument that the Super League somehow isn't "for the people".

I think A22 have come up with a really smart proposal, both in terms of the structure of the league but also in terms of changing certain principles of the league to negate the points made by those who were against it.

Of course, not as many teams are represented in the ESL as under current UEFA club competitions, but then nothing stops UEFA continuing to run the Europa & Europa Conference Leagues alongside the ESL.

I'm certainly more engaged by this revised ESL proposal than the forthcoming change of format to the Champions League.

RM

[MH]

On 2023-12-23 16:37, Real_Mardin wrote:
> So to summarise A22's revised plans for a European Super League:
>
>
> 1) Three divisions Star (16 teams), Gold (16 teams), Blue (32 teams)
>
> 2) All divisions divided into groups of eight, teams play home and away.

14 matches there

>
> 3) Each division will have an end of season knockout round with 8 clubs
> competing for the championship.

two-legged ? That is another 5 matches for the most successful ones.

>
> 4) There will be promotion and relegation between the three leagues.
> Promotion into the Blue Division is based on performance in the domestic
> leagues.
>
> 5) Following on from the above - there are no permanent members and
> appointment to the league is based on sporting merit.
> 6) Participating clubs still remain in their domestic leagues.

That would require the approval of the domestic leagues, presumably.
They were not keen on this with the last proposal.

It also means the ESL would play mid-week games. How to squeeze them in
amid domestic cups etc ? That would require concessions from domestic
leagues (eg. reduce the leagues to 16 teams perhaps ?) or FAs (change
format and entry point for domestic cups.)

>
> 7) All matches to be broadcast free of charge on the ESL's Unity
> streaming platform.
>

So where will they make their money ? Advertising ?

[Real_Mardin]

On 2023-12-23 16:37, Real_Mardin wrote:
> So to summarise A22's revised plans for a European Super League:
>
>
> 1) Three divisions Star (16 teams), Gold (16 teams), Blue (32 teams)
>
> 2) All divisions divided into groups of eight, teams play home and away.

> 14 matches there
>
> 3) Each division will have an end of season knockout round with 8 clubs
> competing for the championship.

> two-legged ? That is another 5 matches for the most successful ones.

The proposal says the ESL will use home and away fixtures throughout the competition, so I guess so.

>
> 4) There will be promotion and relegation between the three leagues.
> Promotion into the Blue Division is based on performance in the domestic
> leagues.
>
> 5) Following on from the above - there are no permanent members and
> appointment to the league is based on sporting merit.
> 6) Participating clubs still remain in their domestic leagues.

> That would require the approval of the domestic leagues, presumably.
> They were not keen on this with the last proposal.

I thought the issue with the first proposal was that the clubs were wanting to break away from their domestic leagues? This rectifies that, from a purely fixtures perspective the clubs would be absent from domestic duty for broadly the same amount of time as they are under UEFA competitions.

The only possible reluctance I can see from domestic leagues might be more political, eg fears of losing favour and influence with UEFA which could somehow negatively impact their national teams in some way.

> 7) All matches to be broadcast free of charge on the ESL's Unity
> streaming platform.
>

> So where will they make their money ? Advertising ?

Exactly that. The free of charge broadcast will be funded by advertising. There are supposed to be premium options open to people who want to pay more to reduce the advertising or have interactive options such as selecting different camera angles, live match data etc.

Given that premium sports channels who I currently pay to watch still maximise their profits by having adverts during the matches I for one have no issue with the ESL free to air broadcast having adverts.

RM

[Blueshirt]

Real_Mardin wrote:
>
> I thought the issue with the first proposal was that the clubs were
> wanting to break away from their domestic leagues?

Nope. That was the spin put on it by the media. The original ESL
proposal was a replacement for the UEFA competitions and ESL fixtures
would have been played midweek.

> The only possible reluctance I can see from domestic leagues might
> be more political, eg fears of losing favour and influence with
> UEFA which could somehow negatively impact their national teams in
> some way.

Very few, if any, of the big domestic leagues are going to go against
UEFA/FIFA. Some big clubs might want to give them a bloody nose, but
that's just to leverage a situation that will give them a bigger
slice of the pie.

> The free of charge broadcast will be funded by advertsing.

> There are supposed to be premium options open to people
> who want to pay more to reduce the advertising or have
> interactive options such as selecting different camera angles, live
> match data etc.

Anybody thinking they will be watching a "Super League" of all the
big European teams free of charge is delusional. Adverts will be a
part of it but revenue from the TV broadcasters is so big these days
I'd dare to think how many on-screen adverts we'd have to put up with
if the broadcasters can't make money from subscriptions. (Currently
in the UK there is no on-screen adverts during matches, as Sky
Sports/TNT/Amazon are pay for football services.) Adverts only would
probably mean 90 minutes of adverts.

> Given that premium sports channels who I currently pay to watch
> still maximise their profits by having adverts during the matches I
> for one have no issue with the ESL free to air broadcast having
> adverts.

Don't hold your breath! The new proposal might put some pressure on
UEFA/FIFA to 'fix' things for certain clubs, but only two big
European teams have publicly expressed an interest in it. The idea
won't be going away I'm sure and there is some merit in giving UEFA a
kick. But without the likes of Bayern Munich, PSG and the English
clubs the two Spanish clubs aren't going to be having much
competition in their two team "Super League".

[The Doctor]

In article <99ae85c600d4b63f...@news.novabbs.com>,

Get UEFA to the table someone!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nk.ca Ici doc...@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
Merry Christmas 2023 and Happy New year 2024 Beware https://mindspring.com

[Blueshirt]

The Doctor wrote:
>
> Get UEFA to the table someone!

Don't worry, I'm sure they are scurrying around behind the scenes
seeing what 'they can do' to help the poor mis fortunate clubs who
feel they are not getting the riches and attention they deserve...