Mickle mockery makest moxie MOC?

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greenly...@yahoo.com

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Oct 17, 2011, 8:36:05 PM10/17/11
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Dear Gentlemen,

I need your educated opinions on a most delicate matter, as I have
recently stumbled into an Investiture, performed by an Order calling
itself MOC, or "The Military Order of the Collar". (Maybe Guy Stair
Sainty could be kind enough to throw me a torch?)

The MOC claims to be a "legitimate Dynastic or House Order", under a
fons honorum called "The Sovereign Royal House of Aragon". Apparently
the Chief of this Royal House (and by necessity also "King of Aragon")
has been appointed to his position by some kind of "internal family
pact", written down in the middle of the 19th century.


Hence my questions:

1. Is it - in the field of continental nobiliary law - a normal,
accepted and legitimate form of behaviour to change the inheritance
laws and succession laws of a formerly reigning Royal or Princely
House, and to do it post dethronisation? I would expect that it would
cause confusion and hurt the likely success of any future Pretenders?

What do they do in Germany, among the many formerly reigning Houses?
What do they do in France and Italy? Could the House of Orléans, as
claimants to the "Kingdom of the French", for instance appoint or
assign a junior cadet of their family as rightful claimant to the
throne of the French, in direct contradiction to Salic law (and also
surpassing any possible future claimants of the senior lines?)


2. Is MOC a legitimate dynastic Order?

As a test of argument: would for instance the Grand Master of the SMOM
be likely to accept a promotion within this Order?


3. The Scandinavian branch of MOC is presently being led by a man
calling himself "Jan-Olov, Marquess von Wowern". Not to be rude and
impolite, but the name of the man have the flavour - for a
Scandinavian at least - as something like "Billiejoe Smith, Marquess
of Weavery". Is he a legitimate Marquess? Is he a legitimate noble?
And if so, by what standards?

The claim of this man to an ancient Flemish feudal dignity, is
spurious, to say the least.

In a fairly recent (2004) court case by PBR or the "Court of Patent
Appeals" in Stockholm, he has presented one of the most astoundingly
unique claims to nobility, that I have ever heard of in the history of
Europe. The argument is curtly presented below.

Apparently the bold Marquess claims that he is descended from an
ancient Flemish (Brabantine) family named "van de Wouwere", with
origins in Antwerpen. He further claims that ancient Flemish nobility
is transferred to all descendents, in both male and female lines.
(After a thousand years of intermarriages, Flanders is by now -
according to this argument - apparently, or most likely, an entirely
noble region.) The ancestor is claimed to be a "Gillis van de
Wouwere" (1090-1143), who was "Bailiff of Antwerpen" and "Marquess of
Rijen /or/ Rhien /or/ Ryen".

The Swedish branch of the present family is descended from a
"Sebastian von Wouvern", or "Sebastian the Weaver" (the spelling is
not entirely known), who settled in southern Sweden, in the late 16th
century. From various male and female descendants of this Sebastian,
do the claim of the present Marquess originate. The connection between
Sebastian and Gillis is unknown, but somehow they are assumed to be
related.

The Court of Patent Appeals wrote in the verdict that "The
investigation presented does not in all parts contain evidence, which
at an initial inspection is completely clarifying." (Swedish:
"Utredningen innehåller inte i alla delar bevis som vid ett första
påseende är helt klargörande.")

However, the Court accepted the claims of the Petitioner, and allowed
him to change his name (from a very common name) to his ancestral
family name "von Wowern", because of his claim to noble lineage. This
decision has caused some alarm and resentment in Swedish nobiliary
circles, as anyone now can claim a noble name and title in Sweden, if
the presented evidence is unclarifying enough. The Court of Patent
Appeals only pronounce judgment on evidence presented by the
Petitioner, after this evidence have been processed by the Patent
Office, and any fairly reasonable argument advocated with vigour, will
stand unabated before the judges, without any counter-argumentation.

Ipso facto, the Swedish court system has now found a way to create
nobles, as a name change of this specific nature (with the predicat
"von") can be allowed anew in law only to those who have proven their
noble lineage. Ipso facto, the Swedish court system has now declared
that ancient Flemish nobility can be passed on to any and all
descendants. (By the way, what do the Flemings think about that?)

The Petitioner Jan-Olov - now styled "von Wouvern" - claimed that an
internal family pact had assigned this ancient feudal dignity to him
and his heirs (and some cousins and family members actually signed the
document confirming that it was so).

What ever happened to the original "feudal Marquessate of Rijen-Rhien-
Ryen"? Have it ever existed? Anyone who knows? Could there be any
claimants in Belgium, who have not signed the von Wouvern family pact?
The present Marquess do not claim his dignity through any principle of
seniority. The claim is based in its entirety on the principle of
"internal family assignation".

(And if stringent theory would be applied, now plain "Joe Smith" can
claim the "ancient feudal Dukedom of Smithereens", and after having
cousins Billyjoe and Billybob signing the internal family pact, he may
now himself claim this ancient feudal dignity, and ask the Court of
Patent Appeals in Stockholm to allow him to change his name to "of
Smithereens", thus confirming the noble name, title, style and dignity
of his ancestors, whether or not they were feudal Dukes in real life.)

The claim to the ancient feudal dignity of Marquess makes the new
noble Jan-Olov von Wouvern "one of the premier foreign nobles in
Sweden". (The premier Peers of Sweden, who are members of the House of
Knights, and Chiefs of their Names, are but mere Counts, Barons, and
Nobles. Not one Marquess among them.)

In the world of self-made Royalty and Nobility, this man might have
found one of the quickest and cleverest routes ever to a noble name
and title, notwithstanding the possibly questionable legitimacy of the
MOC.

Needless to say, I am very sceptical and critical of this newly found
(and founded) route to noble lineage, dignity and title. But I must
admit that the bold Marquess has Chutzpah!

Hence the idiosyncratic subject line.

/A now very Greenish Knight




Military Order of the Collar (MOC):

http://www.mocnolasco.org/faq
http://www.mocterranordica.org/Tronen_och_Altaret/Tronen_och_Altaret_35.pdf


Royal House of Aragon:

http://real-aragon.org/wp/archive/
http://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/harrisonopinion.pdf
http://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/bramstangopinion.pdf
http://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/sundbergopinion.pdf


Decisions by the Court of Patent Appeals (in Swedish):

http://reg.pbr.se/fmi/iwp/cgi?-db=PBRwebb&-loadframes
http://reg.pbr.se/fmi/iwp/cgi?-db=PBRwebb&-loadframes

nicho...@gmail.com

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Oct 18, 2011, 11:59:20 AM10/18/11
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There is some precedent for a deposed House changing it's laws. The
Hohenzollerns of Romania, for example. To succeed one must be a man
who marry a non-Romanian, but a) King Michael has no sons, and b) his
daughters married Romanians. I'm not sure whether this is really
accepted among the nobility of Europe. In fact I assume Princess
Margarita will not be recognized as head of the house by most of them
when she dies.

But the people who matter (aka: the Romanians who would have to vote
to restore a claimant) seem to prefer the new non-sexist rules. Partly
this is because sexism is considered anachronistic at best and evil at
worst, but partly it's because the only Royal Romanians left are the
five Princesses, their families, and their father. If the girls can't
succeed it reverts to the Head of the House of Hohenzollern, who is a
German with absolutely no connection to Romania. It will probably be a
situation analogous to that of Russia, where the claimant most likely
to be accepted by the Russian people (and state) is considered
morganatic and thus ineligible by much of Europe's nobility, who
prefer someone Russians consider a foreigner.

As for the deposed house of Aragon, from a brief reading of their
website they do not actually claim to be deposed rightful rulers. They
claim to be a cadet branch from the 1500s, whose head was specifically
given certain rights. These rights were apparently not really
exercised for 400 years, but were confirmed by the Italian Courts in
the late 50s and early 60s. I'd assume because these rights came from
a family pact when their founder was a cadet to the King of Aragon
there's no reason the pact couldn't be altered.

But I'd much prefer to read an analyses from somebody who knows more
about Aragon's legal system.

Nick

Derek Howard

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Oct 18, 2011, 12:09:49 PM10/18/11
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On Oct 18, 2:36 am, greenlyknigh...@yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> Apparently the bold Marquess claims that he is descended from an
> ancient Flemish (Brabantine) family named "van de Wouwere", with
> origins in Antwerpen. He further claims that ancient Flemish nobility
> is transferred to all descendents, in both male and female lines.
> (After a thousand years of intermarriages, Flanders is by now -
> according to this argument - apparently, or most likely, an entirely
> noble region.) The ancestor is claimed to be a "Gillis van de
> Wouwere" (1090-1143), who was "Bailiff of Antwerpen" and "Marquess of
> Rijen /or/ Rhien /or/ Ryen".
<snip>

Without supporting the absurd claims being made regarding orders in
any way, nor supporting any unsubstantiated genealogical claims, I
note that the name van den Wouwere did indeed exist. A Gilles van den
Wuwere, also known as Gilles Claes, is mentioned in the 1370s (to
bring this more on topic, he bore: On a fess two stars of five rays
between in chief two crescents and in base two roses – found in the
charters of the Dukes of Brabant); an Egidius son of Egidius van den
Wouwere is recorded in Brussels in the 1360s; and a Catherine van den
Wouwere in 1499. (Source De Raadt: “Sceaux armoriés des Pays-Bas et
des pays avoisinants” 1901, reprint 1999, v 4, p 294). I have no
evidence that they were nobles.

However, some of the name were enobled. A Nicholas van den Wouwere was
knighted by Charles de Bourgogne, count of Charolais, in 1465. A Jean
van den Wouwere, lord of Quenaste (now Quenast, in the commune of
Rebecq, Wallonian Brabant), échevin of Antwerp at various dates in the
early 17th century, held various offices and was knighted by Philip IV
in 1624. His son Roger van den Wouwere, lord of Quenaste, was knighted
in 1645 and d.s.p. 1667. This family is said to have come from the
Campine (Kempen - an area further north east towards Antwerp including
Maastricht, Turnhout, Breda, etc). They bore arms which included a
canton Argent three chevrons Gules for van den Wouwere (source:
Vegiano: “Nobiliaire des Pays-Bas et du Compté de Bourgogne”, ed. De
Herckenrode, 1865, v 2, p 2157) and hence apparently unconnected to
the armorial family of the 14th century above. It should be borne in
mind these were not "Flemish" titles but awarded by the monarch as
Duke of Brabant.

Nobility did _not_ descend through female lines though daughters of
nobles were considered noble.

There was no such title as Marquess von Wowern in what is now Belgium.
("von" is a German term).

<snip>
> The Petitioner Jan-Olov - now styled "von Wouvern" - claimed that an
> internal family pact had assigned this ancient feudal dignity to him
> and his heirs (and some cousins and family members actually signed the
> document confirming that it was so).
<snip>

There are no ancient feudal dignities in Belgium. These were abolished
when the French Revolution was exported to the Austrian Netherlands.
The feudal regime was abolished under French legislation of 4-11 Aug
1789 and nobility disappeared in the decree of 19-23 June 1790. These
effects were brought into Belgium by decrees of 3 Nov 1795 abolishing
feudalism and 8 Nov 1795 abolishing nobility. The Dutch and Belgian
states following the Napoleonic era created a nobility and restored
many titles but did not restore feudalism (see Braas: "La législation
nobiliaire en Belgique", 1960).

Within Belgium it is a criminal act under the Penal Code to claim
titles to which one is not lawfully entitled.

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Oct 20, 2011, 5:31:58 AM10/20/11
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On Oct 18, 2:36 am, greenlyknigh...@yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
> The ancestor is claimed to be a "Gillis van de
> Wouwere" (1090-1143), who was "Bailiff of Antwerpen" and "Marquess of
> Rijen /or/ Rhien /or/ Ryen".
<snip>
> What ever happened to the original "feudal Marquessate of Rijen-Rhien-
> Ryen"? Have it ever existed? Anyone who knows?
<snip>

The Marquisate of Antwerp was granted to Godfrey I (Godefroid le
Barbu), count of Leuven/Louvain, in 1106 by the German king of the
Romans, Henry V, at the same time he made him duke of Lower
Lotharingia. The duchy evolved into the duchy of Brabant and Antwerp
remained attached to it. (see Boffa: "Warfare in Medieval Brabant",
2004, 77).

In 1356 Louis of Male, count of Flanders, attacked Brabant and
compelled the duke, Wenceslas/Wenzel of Luxembourg and Joan his wife
to transfer Antwerp and Malines/Mechelen to Flemish control (though
not part of Flanders) at the treaty of Ath. Antwerp passed with
Flanders to Philip the Bold of Burgundy (d 1404) and his wife Margaret
daughter of Louis on this latter's death in 1384, then to Philip's son
Anthony, duke of Brabant (killed 1415. He had received the Duchy of
Brabant separately in 1404 Joan of Brabant via Margaret of Male).
Antwerp subsequently followed Brabant. (see Vaughan: "Philip the
Bold", 1962 and 2002, passim).

The marquisat of the land of Rijen or Herentals was the new (Flemish)
designation of the marquisate of Antwerp following the temporary
passage of the town and seigniory of Antwerp to Flamish control in
1357. The office of margrave (not a title of Marquess) was one of the
six hauts justiciers of the duchy of Brabant. (see Boffa: "Warfare in
Medieval Brabant", 2004, 106). The margrave in 1388 was Charles of
Immerzeel (Boffa, 179 & 223). Unlike the lordship of Mechelen/Malines
which continued as a separate title of the Burgundian dukes and then
Holy Roman Emperors (see under Charles V's titles on Wikipedia), the
marquisat of Antwerp was considered merely part of Brabant.

Derek Howard

The Green Knight

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Oct 20, 2011, 10:51:49 AM10/20/11
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> Within Belgium it is a criminal act under the Penal Code to claim
> titles to which one is not lawfully entitled.
>
> Derek Howard


Below is a copy of a page concerning the "von Wowern" family, giving
their view of their family history. It can be found at "Wowern-
gruppen": http://www.wowern.se/page12/page4/page4.html

They use "argent, three chevrons gules" (or other more proper
expression of the coat of arms). They also use the traditional helmet
of nobility, but with a bird emerging from the helmet. I think the
bird is some kind of pun on the family name.

With the help of Google Translater, I have made their webpage
accessible to English readers:




A Brief History of the name Wowern / family von Wowern

Van den Wouw / von Wowern - ancient nobility, family of marquess rank,
and one of the oldest families of Europe with still living members.

The name Wowern descended, as far as possible to verify, from 1090
when Gilles von Wouw was born. His family came from the village of
Wouw (located in the Netherlands on the border with Belgium). Gilles
was appointed in 1141 in Antwerp Official history (of Godfroi II, Duke
of Brabant) to sheriff of Antwerp and margrave of the country Rien.
From him there is an unbroken lineage to the present.

Carl Nikolaus von Wouw (formerly 1452) was married to Donna Anna
Maria, who reportedly was the daughter of the King of Aragon. Her
father, the Emperor Ferdinand the Catholic was married to Isabella of
Castile and Aragon, their mentioned daughter Joanna of Castile and
Aragon (also known as "John the Insane") was married to Philip of
Austria, whose grandson Charles later became the famous Holy Roman
Emperor Charles V e/1500-1558.
Carl Nikolaus von Wowern had titles such as;, a member of the King of
Spain's Supreme Council and Treasurer of Spain and had the title of
Viceroy of Aragon.
Carl Nikolus son Joost became lord of Malois, Hieselar, Qvarbeck and
Strabrack. Although he was a member of the King of Spain's Supreme
Council, General President of the royal court in Brussels and a
council of war. He was also a Knight of the Holy Cross order in
Jerusalem. He is said to have been proficient in many languages. He
died in 1567 and was buried in Antwerp in a chapel in Derders
monastery.
Joost's son Nicholas von Wowern fled in 1560 from his family and his
native Hamburg, Germany. He left Roman-Catholicism and joined the
Protestant movement (Calvinists). It was then Nicholas's son Sebastian
von Wowern which later came to Skåne and Sweden 1591st Sebastian was
born in 1564 in Hamburg and died in Sweden, 1615th

Since then, this branch of the family lived in Sweden and Per von
Wowern started Wowern group in 1993 in Stockholm.

Literature references: Slaegten von Wowern, by Dr. C: A: M
Christiansen, Naestved 1965th Werner Sarau, Johan van Wouw und sein
Vermächtnis, 1984. Jan-Olov von Wowern, quenched von Wowern (CD ROM),
2003. Dr. E Warlop, The Flemish Nobility before 1300, Kortrijk 1975th

The Green Knight

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Oct 20, 2011, 11:19:08 AM10/20/11
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> Nobility did _not_ descend through female lines though daughters of
> nobles were considered noble.
>
> There was no such title as Marquess von Wowern in what is now Belgium.
> ("von" is a German term).


Oh, I am very sorry, but I just noticed that my two links to the
verdict of the Court of Patent Appeals were not functional. Now I have
used Google Translator and turned them into something which might
actually be readable.

Thank you for your educated commentaries on this matter.




PO, Case No. 03-2422
Patent Office, day of decision 2004-04-20
CPA, Case No. 04-114
Court of Patent Appeals, day of decision 2005-04-01

JUDGEMENT

Patent Appeals removes the appealed decision and shows the application
back to the Patent Office for the necessary treatment.

PETITIONS, etc.

JS and partners have maintained their claims for a change of surname
to "von Wowern".

They are the basis for an action maintained that there are serious
reasons for them to adopt the surname "von Wowern". They have stood
firm in this respect that they belong to the Swedish branch of the
Flemish family of ancient nobility "von Wowern" and the family branch
of the descendants now borne the name for 25 generations. They also
stood firm when they have received consent for the name change, and by
a majority of the family in Sweden, covering the four main branches
and principal JOS, partly by Wowern Group Company Limited. They have
also been maintained that JS used the name since 1981.

The development of its action, JS and partners stated in summary as
follows.

The von Wowern family of ancient nobility is a family of Brabant
(Antwerp) in Flanders, the Netherlands. Any Nobility association or
similar association has never been to the Flemish nobility. The
position of nobility rested originally instead of including possession
of a fortune and a certain standard of living. Nobility is transferred
from noble parents to their children through COGNATE succession, ie.
both the sword and spinning hand.

Founder of the von Wowern was Gilles van de Wouwere (c. 1090-1143),
which according to the city of Antwerp official history in 1141 was
appointed sheriff of Antwerp and margrave (marquis) of land Ryen /
Rijen. The Swedish branch of the von Wowern leads originated from -
the direct descendants of Gilles van de Wouwere derived - Sebastian
von Wowern (born about 1564), who in 1591 settled in Scania.

JS comes into direct descendants of Sebastian von Wowern. The JSS of
ancestors who later bore the name von Wowern was Carl Wowern
(1761-1850). Carl Wowerns daughter Ulrika von Wowern Amelia, who was
married to John Ljungdell (1795-1850), had five children but none of
them bore the name von Wowern. It Ulrika Amelia von Wowerns children
who brought the family branch also named as Frans Johansson
(1829-1910).
---

The case was heard.

Grounds

JS and partners have in the Court of Patent Appeals relied on an
extensive investigation into the von Wowerns nobility and its
membership of the Swedish branch of the family. The report does not in
all parts of evidence that, at first sight is fully clarified.
According to what the investigation shows, however, von Wowern is a
Flemish noble family to which the Swedish branch of JS and partners
can count on. And so far, has been JS and partners, building on the
tradition that the family's nobility rests on a right to bear the name
von Wowern.

The name von Wowern is that the Patent Office maintains a last name as
another in this country bears. There is thus needed, which the Board
also observes that there are exceptional reasons for the change of
name. Among the circumstances which may constitute extraordinary
reasons hear that someone wishes to bear a name that denotes
membership of a particular noble family. According to established
practice required thereby, the Patent Office reported that in addition
to the relationship is a temporal association between those who want
to bear the name and former bearer of the name. And the name should
have been borne as a surname of the applicant's family for at least
two generations in the past 100 years.

In a historical and cultural perspective, aristocratic families had a
special place in Sweden. And nobility is still one of the Swedish
government recognized public law corporation. Against this background,
it may be indicate the location of every person belonging to a Swedish
or a foreign noble family to excel this affiliation by wearing the
family name. Membership of a family may be in a case such as this in
itself constitute exceptional reasons for the change of surname.

Because of the foregoing, the appeal removed and the application is
referred back to the Patent Office for the necessary treatment.

Per Carlson Jeanette Bäckvall Ulf Hallin
Judges

Unanimously

Message has been deleted

The Green Knight

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Oct 20, 2011, 12:50:24 PM10/20/11
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> Nobility did _not_ descend through female lines though daughters of
> nobles were considered noble.
> There was no such title as Marquess von Wowern in what is now Belgium.
> ("von" is a German term).


Here is the second court case. It is very similar and based on the
same evidence given to the Court by the Petitioners.




PO, Case No. 04-4127
Patent Office, day of decision 2004-11-16
CPA, Case No. 04-340
Court of Patent Appeals, day of decision 2005-07-27

JUDGEMENT

Patent Appeals removes the appealed decision and shows the application
back to the Patent Office for the necessary treatment.

PETITIONS, etc.

CR and MR, which is registered in the partnership, has maintained its
claims for a change of surname to "von Wowern".

They are the basis for an action maintained that there are serious
reasons for them to adopt the surname von Wowern. They have stood firm
in this respect that they belong to the Swedish branch of the Flemish
family of ancient nobility called the von Wowern by CR related to this
family.

The development of its action, the CR and MR stated in summary as
follows.

The von Wowern family of ancient nobility is a family of Brabant
(Antwerp) in Flanders, the Netherlands. Any Nobiliary association or
similar association has never existed for the Flemish nobility.
Nobility was transferred from noble parents to their children through
COGNATE succession, ie. both the sword and spinning hand.

Founder of the von Wowern was Gilles van de Wouwere (c. 1090-1143),
which according to the city of Antwerp official history in 1141 was
appointed sheriff of Antwerp and margrave (marquis) of land Ryen /
Rijen. The Swedish branch of the von Wowern leads originate from the
direct descendants of Gilles van de Wouwere derived Sebastian von
Wowern (born 1564), who in 1591 settled in Scania.

CR comes in direct descendants of Sebastian von Wowern. The CR
ancestors who later bore the name von Wowern was his great-grandmother
Anna Catarina Carlsdotter von Wowern (1844-1887) and his grandmother's
mother's father, Carl Hanson von Wowern (1802-1874).
_________

CR and MR have the Court of Patent Appeals relied on investigation
into the von Wowerns nobility.

Grounds

The investigation of CR and MR in the Court of Patent Appeals relied
on the von Wowerns nobility and its membership of the Swedish branch
of the family does not in all parts of evidence that, at first sight
is fully clarified. According to what the investigation shows,
however, von Wowern a Flemish noble family to which the Swedish branch
of CR can count on. And as far as appears, the CR on the basis of the
tradition that the family's nobility rests on a right to bear the name
von Wowern.

The name von Wowern is that the Patent Office maintains a last name as
another in this country bears. There is thus needed, which the Board
also observes that there are exceptional reasons for the change of
name. Patent Appeals Court in the Judgement of 1 April 2005 in Case
04-014, regarding a change of surname to play von Wowern, found that
belonging to a noble family in a case such as the then-current can be
considered as important reasons for the change of surname. In this
case, the reasons for change are essentially the same as in the
aforementioned case. CR, and thus MRI may therefore be considered to
have serious reasons to change the surname of von Wowern.

Turenne

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Oct 22, 2011, 9:57:38 AM10/22/11
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The Green Knight wrote:

>They use "argent, three chevrons gules" (or other more proper expression of the coat of arms).

Three chevronels would be more precise...

RL

François R. Velde

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Oct 22, 2011, 12:56:44 PM10/22/11
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In medio rec.heraldry aperuit greenly...@yahoo.com os suum:
>Dear Gentlemen,
>
>I need your educated opinions on a most delicate matter, as I have
>recently stumbled into an Investiture, performed by an Order calling
>itself MOC, or "The Military Order of the Collar". (Maybe Guy Stair
>Sainty could be kind enough to throw me a torch?)
>
>The MOC claims to be a "legitimate Dynastic or House Order", under a
>fons honorum called "The Sovereign Royal House of Aragon". Apparently
>the Chief of this Royal House (and by necessity also "King of Aragon")
>has been appointed to his position by some kind of "internal family
>pact", written down in the middle of the 19th century.

This nonsense has been discussed here before over the years:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry/browse_thread/thread/fc34fe8ff1288cda/a65cc191050bd389

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.heraldry/browse_thread/thread/f3a1c8f2735d2c86/d51091f993193377?q=#d51091f993193377
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/

e!!5k1

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Oct 24, 2011, 11:51:29 AM10/24/11
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> In medio rec.heraldry aperuit greenly...@yahoo.com os suum:
>>Dear Gentlemen,
>>
>>I need your educated opinions on a most delicate matter, as I have
>>recently stumbled into an Investiture, performed by an Order calling
>>itself MOC, or "The Military Order of the Collar". (Maybe Guy Stair
>>Sainty could be kind enough to throw me a torch?)
>>
>>The MOC claims to be a "legitimate Dynastic or House Order", under a
>>fons honorum called "The Sovereign Royal House of Aragon". Apparently
>>the Chief of this Royal House (and by necessity also "King of Aragon")
>>has been appointed to his position by some kind of "internal family
>>pact", written down in the middle of the 19th century.

Not very creative. If your'e making the whole thing up in the first place,
why not use a little more imagination?
Order of the collar sounds more like a uniform manual telling you how to
wear it, than a name....


Joseph McMillan

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Oct 24, 2011, 12:16:41 PM10/24/11
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On Oct 17, 8:36 pm, greenlyknigh...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> I need your educated opinions on a most delicate matter, as I have
> recently stumbled into an Investiture, performed by an Order calling
> itself MOC, or "The Military Order of the Collar".

Hmmm... "military" from "miles," the term used in medieval Latin for a
knight, corresponding to Gaelic "niadh."

"Collar" in Gaelic would be "nask."

Coincidence?

Joseph McMillan

Turenne

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Oct 24, 2011, 1:06:43 PM10/24/11
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On Oct 24, 5:16 pm, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan...@gmail.com> wrote:
.
>
> Hmmm... "military" from "miles," the term used in medieval Latin for a
> knight, corresponding to Gaelic "niadh."
>
> "Collar" in Gaelic would be "nask."
>
> Coincidence?
>

Brilliant!

RL


François R. Velde

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Oct 25, 2011, 12:15:16 AM10/25/11
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In medio rec.heraldry aperuit Joseph McMillan <mcmil...@gmail.com> os suum:
The "Military Order of the Collar", whose full name is "... of Saint Agatha of
Paterno", was kicking around long before Terence McCarthy was born.

Jonas Arnell

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Nov 14, 2011, 8:49:16 AM11/14/11
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> http://www.mocnolasco.org/faqhttp://www.mocterranordica.org/Tronen_och_Altaret/Tronen_och_Altaret_...
>
> Royal House of Aragon:
>
> http://real-aragon.org/wp/archive/http://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/harrisonopinion.pdfhttp://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/bramstangopinion.pdfhttp://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/sundbergopinion.pdf
The "Royal House of Aragon" has some quaint connection to Sweden - the
pretender of the throne's younger brother Thorbjorn was born in
Molndal, outskirts of Gothenburg. And of course he has his own Royal
universe, complete with court verdicts etc: see http://www.paternocastello.info/
and http://www.paternocastello.it/ mirrored in Spanish http://www.paternocastello.es/
...

/Jonas

Juan Diaz

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Nov 14, 2011, 12:13:13 PM11/14/11
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I see mentions of charitable organizations affiliated with these
groups. Do they at least do any real philanthropic work? Do those
countries have any ratings for charities?

matslarsson60

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Nov 18, 2011, 5:01:32 AM11/18/11
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On 18 Okt, 01:36, greenlyknigh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.mocnolasco.org/faqhttp://www.mocterranordica.org/Tronen_och_Altaret/Tronen_och_Altaret_...
>
> Royal House of Aragon:
>
> http://real-aragon.org/wp/archive/http://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/harrisonopinion.pdfhttp://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/bramstangopinion.pdfhttp://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/sundbergopinion.pdf
The Swedish Law of names has a paragrapf that makes it possible to
assume a name from older generations. Jan Olov born Malmberg's
paternal grand mother was a von Wovern, so it is from this context
that the NAME has been changed. It does in NO WAY mean that the
Swedish Patent and Registration office has accepted claims to nobility
OR to the title Marquess.

Similar case is that of the Swedish Member of Parliament Tuve
Skånberg, who first tried to be placed in the Bonde noble family by
female line (denied by the Riddarhuset) and which since claims to be
related to the Beetz von Beetzen family. He has changed his name to
Tuve Skånberg von Beetzen (sigh...) on similar grounds as Jan-Olov.

Another is Thor Kristoffersson, who changed his name to Thor von
Rahden (with title Baron) and became the leader of a Russian-derived
branch of fake Order of St John.

Riddarhuset (the House of Nobles) have a hard time combatting name-
changes to names of the - or similar to - nobles introduced inte the
Riddarhuset. The above families were never introduced into the
Riddarhuset hence nobody can monitor ursurpations - the Association of
the Unintroduced Nobility does not have the muscles...

/Mats

Jonas Arnell

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Nov 18, 2011, 11:55:49 AM11/18/11
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On 18 Okt, 01:36, greenlyknigh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.mocnolasco.org/faqhttp://www.mocterranordica.org/Tronen_och_Altaret/Tronen_och_Altaret_...
>
> Royal House of Aragon:
>
> http://real-aragon.org/wp/archive/http://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/harrisonopinion.pdfhttp://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/bramstangopinion.pdfhttp://real-aragon.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/pdf/sundbergopinion.pdf
The "Tronen och altaret" publication has been swiftly removed. Pity!
One could see several "show-room dummies" (prominent Swedes who by
their mere prescence signify some sort of genuinity which attract
further unsuspecting members).

What is really interesting, though, is the fact that the MOC have
admitted more "Knights" and "Dames" into the Order in Sweden - c. 40
persons - in one single year than the Order of Malta and the Order of
the Holy Sepulchre has admitted in eight years in Sweden combined!

Obviously NO care for
1. trying to improve "order's" and the "Royal House's" already poor
status,
2. the status of what a neck order should signify (=order inflation
which demotes the status of all other neck orders in the public eye),
3. for taking care of new members, making sure finding themselves at
home in the MOC and remaining members etc... I mean, most orders of
Knighthood have a probationary period of upto a year and admit very
sparingly, so that ALL members locally may know the candidate WELL and
vice versa. This is simply not possible when you admit 13 on the
dozen.

From this, it is tempting to conclude that the only thing the MOC is
interested in is to see how wide candidates can open their wallet. :-(

/J
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