Massassi's Honor Question
gre...@gmail.com
Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card
(e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of
Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action.
What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo
(e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns
or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle?
Massassi's Honor
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Osebo
Only usable when this Osebo is blocked (play before combat, if any).
Choose a ready untapped Osebo you control who could take that action,
put this card in play, and move any other cards this Osebo played this
action from your ash heap to this card. After this action, the chosen
Osebo must attempt the same action (with the same target, if any). He
or she may play cards from this card as if from your hand. Burn this
card at the end of that action or if the action is not possible.
CthuluKitty
> >From reading another post it seems clear that if an Osebo plays
> Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card
> (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of
> Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action.
> What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo
> (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns
> or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle?
The first action would succeed, as per the normal rules of the game.
Of that I'm fairly sure. I *think* that the second action (granted by
MH) would fizzle upon resolution since the card it's looking for is
already in play on another vampire. I'm unclear however on what might
happen if you could someone burn that card before taking your next
action. For example, you might have equipped with Blood Tears and
immediately burned it for 2 blood, or you could have played Enforcer
and then accidentally burned yourself with Daring the Dawn. In those
cases, it seems like the MH action should go off normally, but I'm
just not sure. Luckily, none of this should ever matter.
One other question for LSJ though: do cards played by the acting Osebo
after MH go to it? It seems that they should, since otherwise the card
doesn't do much of anything, but I'm finding the text somewhat unclear.
gpett...@gmail.com
>
> Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card
> (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of
> Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action.
> What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo
> (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns
> or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle?
>
Using Enforcer:
1. The first Osebo gets it placed on them (card text Enforcer).
2. The second Osebo must attempt an Enforcer action (card text MH).
3. If you have an Enforcer in your hand, the second Osebo must attempt
it (card text MH). If you choose not to play it, they become stuck
until the Enforcer is gone from your hand (making the action
impossible) or you leave the Minion Phase (making the action
impossible). Burn the MH at that time (card text MH). The second Osebo
would then be unstuck.
4. If you do not have an Enforcer in your hand, the MH burns because
the action is impossible (card text MH).
> Massassi's Honor
> Type: Action Modifier
> Requires: Osebo
> Only usable when this Osebo is blocked (play before combat, if any).
> Choose a ready untapped Osebo you control who could take that action,
> put this card in play, and move any other cards this Osebo played this
> action from your ash heap to this card. After this action, the chosen
> Osebo must attempt the same action (with the same target, if any). He
> or she may play cards from this card as if from your hand. Burn this
> card at the end of that action or if the action is not possible.
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
LSJ
> On Aug 7, 1:06 pm, gre...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >From reading another post it seems clear that if an Osebo plays
>> Massassi's Honor (MH) while taking an action that requires a card
>> (e.g. Flurry of Action) and continues as if unblocked (using Form of
>> Mist for example) the selected Osebo still gets to perform the action.
>> What happens if the action is one that puts a card on the acting Osebo
>> (e.g. Enforcer, weapons) does the first Osebo get it and the MH burns
>> or does the MH get it and the first action fizzle?
>
> The first action would succeed, as per the normal rules of the game.
> Of that I'm fairly sure.
Well, perhaps. But it's not a clear cut case (it requires a ruling here, not
just a clarification). The issue is whether the action to put the action card in
play (equipment, Army of Rats, Seeds of Corruption, &c.) can only put the card
in play from limbo (the staging area for action cards between announcement and
resolution), or if it puts it in play from anywhere.
For Form of Mist (and other "continue as if unblocked" effects) to work, either
retrieving from the ash heap at action resolution must be ruled possible or the
"continue as if unblocked" effects must be ruled to move the card from the ash
heap back to limbo as an inherent part of the "as if unblocked" effect).
The first ruling would be a precedent-setter that could be used for allowing the
action to work from other places as well (e.g., retrieving the card from
Massassi's Honor upon the continuance's successful resolution). The latter
ruling not so much.
But.
There is already a ruling that says you can't move put-me-in-play action cards
by mere action continuance. That ruling came up for Swarm vs. Form of Mist.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/118fa71fcbe54a7f
So it seems the course here is already set (new ruling):
"continue as if unblocked" inherently moves the action card from the ash heap
(where it went when the action was blocked) to limbo (where it should be if the
action is not blocked).
If the action card is not in the ash heap, then the action cannot be continued
(as per the earlier Swarm ruling).
That would apply to cards removed from the game upon being blocked, as well
(like Reinforcements).
> I *think* that the second action (granted by
> MH) would fizzle upon resolution since the card it's looking for is
> already in play on another vampire.
Well, with the ruling above, the continuance is thwarted, so the card remains on
Massassi's Honor, and the second action is performed as usual.
> I'm unclear however on what might
> happen if you could someone burn that card before taking your next
> action. For example, you might have equipped with Blood Tears and
> immediately burned it for 2 blood, or you could have played Enforcer
> and then accidentally burned yourself with Daring the Dawn. In those
> cases, it seems like the MH action should go off normally, but I'm
> just not sure. Luckily, none of this should ever matter.
If some effect has removed the action card from Massassi's Honor before the
chosen Osebo could begin that second action, then that chosen Osebo would be
unable to attempt the action (lacking the card required to being the action), so
Massassi's Honor would simply be burned by its own card text with no additional
action at all (rather than a fizzled one).
> One other question for LSJ though: do cards played by the acting Osebo
> after MH go to it? It seems that they should, since otherwise the card
> doesn't do much of anything, but I'm finding the text somewhat unclear.
No. It only collects the cards played during the action prior to the MH. It
doesn't collect itself, nor any cards the acting minion plays after MH.
gpett...@gmail.com
> For Form of Mist (and other "continue as if unblocked" effects) to work, either
> retrieving from the ash heap at action resolution must be ruled possible or the
> "continue as if unblocked" effects must be ruled to move the card from the ash
> heap back to limbo as an inherent part of the "as if unblocked" effect).
>
Is there a particular reason why the Action Card doesn't simply stay
in Limbo until the action is over?
LSJ
Rules text. [6.2.3]
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3
Meej
Not to be pedantic, but the rules text looks like it needs to be
revised there
anyway - there's no mention of what becomes of the action card if the
action
is successful! (Not that there needs to be for clarity of play, since
that's not
something that's confused, but for completeness' sake it ought to be
there.)
Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just
*before*
resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat
resulting from a
successful Bum's Rush, is the Bum's Rush itself in the ash heap, or in
Limbo?)
Not that I can think of a case where this point matters at present,
but it did
make me curious... and it might have some bearing on Gregory's
question,
at least in terms of shedding light on the rules text.
- D.J.
LSJ
> On Aug 8, 10:15 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> gpettig...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Aug 8, 9:57 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>>> For Form of Mist (and other "continue as if unblocked" effects) to work, either
>>>> retrieving from the ash heap at action resolution must be ruled possible or the
>>>> "continue as if unblocked" effects must be ruled to move the card from the ash
>>>> heap back to limbo as an inherent part of the "as if unblocked" effect).
>>> Is there a particular reason why the Action Card doesn't simply stay
>>> in Limbo until the action is over?
>> Rules text. [6.2.3]
>> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_2_3
>
> Not to be pedantic, but the rules text looks like it needs to be
> revised there
> anyway - there's no mention of what becomes of the action card if the
> action
> is successful! (Not that there needs to be for clarity of play, since
> that's not
> something that's confused, but for completeness' sake it ought to be
> there.)
Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what
becomes of the action card" depends on the action.
> Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just
> *before*
> resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat
Before.
> resulting from a
> successful Bum's Rush, is the Bum's Rush itself in the ash heap, or in
> Limbo?)
Ash heap.
Meej
> Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what
> becomes of the action card" depends on the action.
(smacks head) Of course it does. But a cross-reference here might
help, too, since this is the "how to resolve an action" section.
> > Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just
> > *before*
> > resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat
>
> Before.
Cool; much clearer to me, and at least in both cases it's in the ash
heap before you get to the effects of resolution or block. Thanks for
clearing that curiosity up.
Any particular reason why then, rather than at the total end of the
action, other than "that's how it's written so far"? It seems that
if, in both cases, the card went to its final destination at the very
end of the action, it'd clear up a lot of messy interactions when an
action's continued after blocking or whatever. Maybe not important
enough to warrant a change, of course...
- D.J.
LSJ
> On Aug 8, 10:55 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what
>> becomes of the action card" depends on the action.
>
> (smacks head) Of course it does. But a cross-reference here might
> help, too, since this is the "how to resolve an action" section.
>
>>> Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just
>>> *before*
>>> resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat
>> Before.
>
> Cool; much clearer to me, and at least in both cases it's in the ash
> heap before you get to the effects of resolution or block. Thanks for
> clearing that curiosity up.
>
> Any particular reason why then, rather than at the total end of the
> action, other than "that's how it's written so far"?
Not that I know of, except perhaps intuition, at least in the case of blocked
actions.
> It seems that
> if, in both cases, the card went to its final destination at the very
> end of the action, it'd clear up a lot of messy interactions when an
> action's continued after blocking or whatever. Maybe not important
> enough to warrant a change, of course...
Sure. Also, Echoes of Harmonies assumes the current order. And Gift of Bellona
references the current order.
LSJ
> Meej wrote:
>> Not to be pedantic, but the rules text looks like it needs to be revised there
>> anyway - there's no mention of what becomes of the action card if the action
>> is successful! (Not that there needs to be for clarity of play, since that's not
>> something that's confused, but for completeness' sake it ought to be there.)
>
> Perhaps. It would likely be put in 6.1.6, and the like, however, since "what
> becomes of the action card" depends on the action.
>
>> Does the action card on a successful action go to the ash heap just
>> *before*
>> resolution, or just *after*? (In other words, during a combat
>
> Before.
Oops. After.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a0cae22d49ab2be3
>> resulting from a
>> successful Bum's Rush, is the Bum's Rush itself in the ash heap, or in
>> Limbo?)
>
> Ash heap.
So: Limbo.