Boycott PPM! (maybe)
stevenp
Clay did what he did with taking the pin repair guides offline. No one
seems happy about this. But the coerced contribution to Pacific Pinball
Museum to get a CD of the guide bears closer inspection. If PPM had any
hand in coming up with this hostage scheme (and yes, I do consider
taking material offline that was contributed by many people for
FREE/PUBLIC dissemination a hostage situation!), then I vote for
boycotting this organization that allegedly wants to promote pinball.
Anyone with half a brain or more would realize that taking the pinrepair
manuals offline would generally HURT the pinball community. And I doubt
that this whole donation arrangement was done without PPM's full
knowledge and cooperation.
As "Pinball Revival CO." wrote in a related thread:
"Clay has generously allowed us an opportunity to
utilize all of his work and efforts over the years to no only help our
cause, but to bring the material before a larger and more diverse
group of people.and I personally applaud him for that. He has been a
very valuable and appreciated friend of the PPM and PPE for several
years. His free contributuions to the pinball community at large are
unequaled, and in no way should be overshadowed or diminished by a
skewed perspective of his magnanomous gesture. Pinball is for
everyone, not just the serious collector, or the world class
tournament player....everyone. You can choose to ask what's in it for
you, or you can do what you can to see what you have to offer. We
want to be inclusive and bring all factions of the pinball community
together."
This is patently BS (except for the part about Clay's contributions to
the pin community being unequaled).
"Bring the material before a larger and more diverse group"???
Bullscheisse!!! How does taking information OFF of a public website and
REQUIRING a donation to get a CD MAILED to you improve dissemination of
the info??? Exactly who is going to buy this CD who wouldn't find and
access it more easily online? Simple question, but I see no ready answer
for such a BS assertion.
"We want to be inclusive and bring all factions of the pinball
community together." UH-HUH. Can't you just feel the love in the air as
we celebrate your wonderful plan to bring all the pinheads together in
harmony? I can feel a chorus of Kumbaya welling in my chest. Check all
the online discussions of the PPM pinrepair hostage situation to see the
unification. Actually, the only consensus I see is that people are
uniformly PO'd about the guides being taken offline.
BTW, it is very likely *not* legal for PPM to take the guides offline
completely (Clay was not hosting the website himself, nor paying for the
hosting), nor for PPM to sell CDs that includes copyrighted information
from 3rd parties without their consent. And I have seen several
contributors state they have NOT given consent. Heck, if PPM persists in
trying to carry out this farce, I'll be happy to represent anyone who
wants to sue for copyright infringement. (I'm an IP lawyer by day.)
Consider it my "donation" to the pinball community.
--
stevenp
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
Lloyd Olson
Mob mentality and extreme bull shit is not a good plan to move forward for
the good of pinball.
Mario had the best idea so far.
Make new guides. Make them available.
Now that is a worthy effort. LTG :)
"stevenp" <stev...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:stevenp...@gmail.com...
phishrace
You shouldn't assume that poster speaks for all of PPM. He's not
Professor Ju Ju.
While I question their need for so much money, I wouldn't recommend
anyone boycott anything other than maybe the CD in question. Instead,
spend the $10 on for-profit location pinball in your area. If you must
donate it, go to the PHOF. They'll take it one quarter at a time.
-phish
Tim N.
> Count me out of boycott crap.
>
> Mob mentality and extreme bull shit is not a good plan to move forward for
> the good of pinball.
>
> Mario had the best idea so far.
>
> Make new guides. Make them available.
>
> Now that is a worthy effort. LTG :)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agreed... Pinball is a hobby which needs as much positive exposure it
can get to survive.... Just be happy we have anything to use as a
resource. I blame Al Gore for giving us the internet in the first
place.
Hans
I see zero reason to even contemplate any boycotts right now. I think
that it's an honest misunderstanding that will, at some point, come to
a clean resolution.
Should I end up anywhere near the PPM, I have absolute no qualms with
stopping in to play some games and buy a couple t-shirts. Their clear
acrylic Surf Champ is definitely on the list of machines I want to
play sometime in my life.
-Hans
firepower
did and donate exactly one penny.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/df9b8eee5ffaa0cb#
That should get their attention if enough people do it. I personally
would have been happy to give more (probably a suggested $10) if they
had just put a "donate to a good cause here" button on Clay's site and
left site access open.
Instead of a paywall like it's exotic porno. Tacky. Tacky. Tacky.
I also wrote and asked to remove my IP from the PPM CD (and from Clay's
site) as it is no longer freely available for any pinball enthusiast
that needs it.
I may need to take you up on your offer of legal help if they issue CDs
with my information included.
"It's not cricket, old chap" (It's not on, just isn't done) as they say
here in the UK.
-Richard
kbliznick
> Count me out of boycott crap.
>
> Mob mentality and extreme bull shit is not a good plan to move forward for
> the good of pinball.
>
> Mario had the best idea so far.
> Make new guides. Make them available.
>
> Now that is a worthy effort. LTG :)
Wholeheartedly agree.
No Boycotts, no ill will, no negativity.
It is what it is and while some unpopular decisions have been made the
right move is to move forward and contribute what you can to promote
pinball, and not contribute in in-fighting. I wish PPM no ill will and
hope they suceed and continue to stay open. More than half of my
pinball knowledge has come from the contibutions of all the people who
helped make the repair guides what they were. In grattitude of that I
have made a $10 contribution to a pinball entity of my choice.
And in grattitude for the all free knowledge I have gained and
subsequently dissmeminated to others I want to move forward by helping
remake new and better free repair guides to take the place of the old
ones
stevenp
phishrace;1680480 Wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2:30*pm, stevenp <steven... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:
> > Clay did what he did with taking the pin repair guides offline. *No
> one
> > seems happy about this. *But the coerced contribution to Pacific
> Pinball
> > Museum to get a CD of the guide bears closer inspection. *If PPM had
> any
> > hand in coming up with this hostage scheme (and yes, I do consider
> > taking material offline that was contributed by many people for
> > FREE/PUBLIC dissemination a hostage situation!), then I vote for
> > boycotting this organization that allegedly wants to promote
> pinball.
> > Anyone with half a brain or more would realize that taking the
> pinrepair
> doubt
> > that this whole donation arrangement was done without PPM's full
> > knowledge and cooperation.
> >
> > As "Pinball Revival CO." wrote in a related thread:
> >
> > "Clay has generously allowed us an opportunity to
> > utilize all of his work and efforts over the years to no only help
> our
> > cause, but to bring the material before a larger and more diverse
> > group of people.and I personally applaud him for that. He has been a
> > very valuable and appreciated friend of the PPM and PPE for several
> > years. His free contributuions to the pinball community at large are
> > unequaled, and in no way should be overshadowed or diminished by a
> > skewed perspective of his magnanomous gesture. Pinball is for
> > everyone, not just the serious collector, or the world class
> > tournament player....everyone. You can choose to ask what's in it
> for
> > you, or you can do what you can to see what you have to offer. We
> > want to be inclusive and bring all factions of the pinball community
> > together."
> >
> > This is patently BS (except for the part about Clay's contributions
> to
> >
> > "Bring the material before a larger and more diverse group"???
> > Bullscheisse!!! How does taking information OFF of a public website
> and
> > REQUIRING a donation to get a CD MAILED to you improve dissemination
> of
> and
> > access it more easily online? Simple question, but I see no ready
> answer
> > for such a BS assertion.
> >
> > "We want to be inclusive and bring all factions of the pinball
> as
> > we celebrate your wonderful plan to bring all the pinheads together
> in
> > harmony? I can feel a chorus of Kumbaya welling in my chest. Check
> all
> > the online discussions of the PPM pinrepair hostage situation to see
> the
> > uniformly PO'd about the guides being taken offline.
> >
> > BTW, it is very likely *not* legal for PPM to take the guides
> offline
> > completely (Clay was not hosting the website himself, nor paying for
> the
> > hosting), nor for PPM to sell CDs that includes copyrighted
> information
> > from 3rd parties without their consent. And I have seen several
> > contributors state they have NOT given consent. Heck, if PPM persists
> in
> > trying to carry out this farce, I'll be happy to represent anyone
> who
> > wants to sue for copyright infringement. (I'm an IP lawyer by day.)
> > Consider it my "donation" to the pinball community.
> >
> > --
> > stevenp
> > This USENET post sent fromhttp://rgparchive.com
>
> You shouldn't assume that poster speaks for all of PPM. He's not
> Professor Ju Ju.
>
> While I question their need for so much money, I wouldn't recommend
> anyone boycott anything other than maybe the CD in question. Instead,
> spend the $10 on for-profit location pinball in your area. If you must
> donate it, go to the PHOF. They'll take it one quarter at a time.
>
> -phish
In the past year, I have supported PHOF and PAPA (on-site), as well as
many local establishments and pinball operators and league/tournament
organizers with my money, time, spare parts, etc. And I've been doing my
part in getting some new people interested in pinball. Way more than $10
worth!! And it is not about the money,, as so many people have said.
It's about taking the open information source offline.
Note the "maybe" in the subject line. It is there on purpose. I'm sure
the people at PPM are pinball advocates and want to do what's best for
the pin community. This thread is, admittedly, more of an
attention-getter, trying to get PPM to see the error of their ways in
this matter and DO THE RIGHT THING.
I simply cannot imagine the few donations they may receive would be
worth the amount of bad feelings this action is causing. As for the
"hostage" appellation: think about it, right now, the pinrepair manuals
are not openly available online (through conventional channels). And for
those who sent in a donation to get a CD--do you have any idea when such
CDs wll be burned and sent to you? I don't think anyone has--I saw a
post saying PPM was holding off on doing anything right now. Hopefully
they'll come to their senses. In the meantime, there is no legit access
to the pinrepair info for those who have not downloaded or printed them
earlier.
I'm not looking to create a schism here--just being a bit alarmist to
hopefully accelerate prevailing of common sense. I'm also not looking to
take legal action--just trying to emphasize that just because Clay says
it is OK, PPM still DOES NOT have the right to burn and distribute CDs
with information donated by 3rd parties!
Pinthetic
boycot PPM. I don't think the PPM people realized what a can of worms
they were about to unleash and may have acted differently if they had
considered it better. I personally know some of these people and they
are true pinheads. It also tells me that there is a disconnect between
the operators of PPM and true pinball techs. I think the true pin
techs therre should have spoke up, unless they were unaware what the
left had was doing. Odds are there is quite a bit of emails flying
amongst their own members right now.
There are statements in that news release that are just plain ignorant
like: "to bring the material before a larger and more diverse
group of people". You have all seen that. I had to read it twice as I
thought my eyes were playing tricks on me.
Check your emotions. PPM is good for the hobby and there are good
people there too. I just think someone, and I believe it is one person
behind it, got carried away with a bad idea.
Mario
Pinthetic
Tahoe41
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree with Mario....good people but a bad idea.
Mike
stevenp
Tahoe41;1680506 Wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I don't suspect there was anything malevolent involved in the
> least.
> think
> > > that it's an honest misunderstanding that will, at some point, come
> to
> > > a clean resolution.
> >
> with
> > > stopping in to play some games and buy a couple t-shirts. *Their
> clear
> > > acrylic Surf Champ is definitely on the list of machines I want to
> > > play sometime in my life.
> >
> > > -Hans- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I agree with Mario....good people but a bad idea.
>
> Mike
For the record, I agree too. And I'm hoping the bad idea will be
abandoned... sooner rather than later.
marcusaurelius9
Is it your material being used on that website? The only people who
have any right to say anything are people who have something of
their's on that website, the rest are just being crybabies. So far in
these threads I have seen one guy upset because he has material on
there and about 100 crybabies who have no stake, they just want free
stuff. A good percentage of these free stuff seekers even stoop to
stealing when it comes to it and then they brag about how easily they
were able to steal. Bunch of real upstanding peeps in the pinball biz,
no wonder you have to CYA to the hilt everytime you try and buy or
sell a pinball machine.
I guess when one of the guys who holds a big pinball party decides to
charge a $10 cover fee next time and donate the money to his favorite
charity it's OK to break into his house and steal his machines
because:
1. The party was always free before.
2. You don't like they guys charity of choice.
3. A few other guys have plastic sets on some of those machines and
now they are being used for profit.
4. He said 10 years ago the party would walways be free.
5. His pinball party's are good for the pinball community and newbs
won't pay to attend them.
Lame excuses to try and justify jackass behavior is all that's going
on with many of the posts in these threads.
Ron Lyons
release the info yourself if you wrote something that wasn't in the
guide. If you know ANYTHING about pinball machines, just post it
somewhere.
Clay took the time to get all that up and running and compiled it.
You or anyone could the same damn thing. All he did was stop running
his website... what's the big deal?
For a 10 dollar donation to charity, he'll send you a copy of the
website he used to have up.
This is getting blown WAY out of proportion. Nothing's being held
hostage except Clay's hosting account. The info is still out there,
it's just not compiled in one place anymore. That was Clay's
contribution. He took his ball and went home.
Somebody else will step up and compile all the info again, and then
it'll be convienant again. Until then, the info's still out there,
just not compiled by Clay. ... and then, even THAT is still available
on the wayback machine.
This argument is fascinating. Talk about taking somebody for
granted.
metallik
> You or anyone could the same damn thing. All he did was stop running
> his website... what's the big deal?
Perhaps it's the part about him (or PPM) trying to profit from the
work of other people? Did you miss the posts where numerous
contributors to the guide expressed dismay that their work was now
being commercialized against their will?
Perhaps it's simply because some people don't like being forced to
support a particular organization?
Or perhaps it's the fact Clay is acting in a pretty hypocritical
manner. This text used to be on the front page, even after the
paywall - he deleted it last night or this morning (so obviously he's
reading these threads):
"Why Free? These guides are free because I want people to use them.
The more people use them, and the more it helps them, then the more
inclined I am to keep it up to date. For this reason, if you find the
guides useful, please tell your friends. These guides are free, rather
than formally published, because I want to deliver the best product
possible. If it was published, I would not be able to get to market so
quickly. I find that as information and new idea develop, timeliness
is important. Also since it's available for free, I am under no
pressure to make the guides "marketable". I simply include whatever I
think might be useful."
I guess he got enough pressure to make them "marketable". So much for
good karma.
MisterP
"em repair guide" -pinrepair pinball
and see what shows up at the top
I will order on disc as well once the fan(s) stops slinging.
Ron Lyons
> > Clay took the time to get all that up and running and compiled it.
> > You or anyone could the same damn thing. All he did was stop running
> > his website... what's the big deal?
>
> Perhaps it's the part about him (or PPM) trying to profit from the
> work of other people? Did you miss the posts where numerous
> contributors to the guide expressed dismay that their work was now
> being commercialized against their will?
>
Their work isn't being commercialized. It's still free. It's all
over the internet; also, they can release it however they want at any
time. They just don't want to do the work that Clay did.
> Perhaps it's simply because some people don't like being forced to
> support a particular organization?
Who's forcing who? Which particular organization is Clay shutting his
website down forcing you to support?
>
> Or perhaps it's the fact Clay is acting in a pretty hypocritical
> manner. This text used to be on the front page, even after the
> paywall - he deleted it last night or this morning (so obviously he's
> reading these threads):
>
> "Why Free? These guides are free because I want people to use them.
> The more people use them, and the more it helps them, then the more
> inclined I am to keep it up to date. For this reason, if you find the
> guides useful, please tell your friends. These guides are free, rather
> than formally published, because I want to deliver the best product
> possible. If it was published, I would not be able to get to market so
> quickly. I find that as information and new idea develop, timeliness
> is important. Also since it's available for free, I am under no
> pressure to make the guides "marketable". I simply include whatever I
> think might be useful."
That was how he felt when he made the site. Since then, things have
changed.
This isn't the huge deal people are making it out to be. Everybody
calm down. The sun is going to come up tommorow, I promise!
firepower
You obviously haven't read the thread through that discusses the action
pinrepair took.
On 21/04/2011 23:24, marcusaurelius9 wrote:
>
> Is it your material being used on that website?
Yes. And another person whom I represent here. So that's two and counting.
> The only people who
> have any right to say anything are people who have something of
> their's on that website, the rest are just being crybabies. So far in
> these threads I have seen one guy upset because he has material on
> there and about 100 crybabies who have no stake, they just want free
> stuff. A good percentage of these free stuff seekers even stoop to
> stealing when it comes to it and then they brag about how easily they
> were able to steal. Bunch of real upstanding peeps in the pinball biz,
> no wonder you have to CYA to the hilt everytime you try and buy or
> sell a pinball machine.
Speak for yourself. I usually give away stuff free.
I make it more than one person who's material has been "co-opted"
certainly 6 (or more) came forward already and openly said so. I'm sure
the count is much higher in reality. I'll name them and post links if
you are too slow to be able to read their posts.
A bunch of cry babies, maybe. But how can you "steal" something that
pinrepair.com has put in the public domain for years?
>
> I guess when one of the guys who holds a big pinball party decides to
> charge a $10 cover fee next time and donate the money to his favorite
> charity it's OK to break into his house and steal his machines
> because:
>
> 1. The party was always free before.
> 2. You don't like they guys charity of choice.
> 3. A few other guys have plastic sets on some of those machines and
> now they are being used for profit.
> 4. He said 10 years ago the party would walways be free.
> 5. His pinball party's are good for the pinball community and newbs
> won't pay to attend them.
What has this got to do with anything at all? Complete farce.
No- you just don't attend the party. Give your money to a bar for a
beer and a game of pinball there instead...
Nice fantasy though, would make a cool movie "Dude, where's my pinball
par-ty?"
>
> Lame excuses to try and justify jackass behavior is all that's going
> on with many of the posts in these threads.
OK. That's your opinion 'war-pig'.
The only jackass behavior I can see is putting a blocking "paywall" on a
site that was freely available without any notice. And not bothering to
liaise with 3rd parties that had provided (some of) the information
which was "co-opted".
OH - And lastly. Now the site just says this:
"The copyrighted PinRepair.com Pinball Repair Guides are no longer
available."
No donation to PPM at all. So that's that then. Site closed. Problem
is all solved. Yeah, right.
Thanks a million, Clay. You are a class act!
-R.
Jason
wrote:
Clay IS a class act, man! Seriously?
Look at it like this. I just went and downloaded all those files,
took a little sorting and clicking and saving to, etc. Now I have a
Pinball Repair folder. It's less than 100 MBs. Now, I host them on
my laptop and external harddrive for myself.
All told, from start to finish, coming here and reading that the files
weren't being hosted anymore to now, about 25 minutes. Big deal! You
know how long Clay must have spent putting those things together? I'm
not sure, either, but it was a helluva lot longer than 25 minutes.
And hosting them for the past however many years isn't free either
usually!
Could Clay have handled the removal better? Sure. Post here first,
and explain things, communicate Clay. Then everyone's cool.
Surprises beget misinterpretations! And nobody likes feeling
strongarmed, quoting Shane: "I'll leave, but I'd like it to be my
idea." Or something like that Forced donations get about the same
feeling.
But even so, so what? Big deal. Do what I did if you think you will
need the files before you get a cd, or before Clay puts them up again,
which I'm sure he will. It's the Grapes of War and Peace Wrath of
Khan Huckleberry Finn of online Pinball Repair. Clay spent a lot of
time writing and arranging all of that material, even if some of it is
copyrighted by others, archiving it in that way in an ungodly act that
we should all STILL be thanking him for. I am happy to have donated
for the TOPcast dvds, and I own about every one. Same with Pins and
Vids. I love these pinball community media guides and entertainment
that are donated back into pinball. It takes a lot of time to do. A
lot more time than I spent (25 mins) looking up and saving it all in
an orderly fashion. Just downloading it and sorting through it all, I
have a whole new respect for the scope of that guide and how much
effort went into conjuring it up. So I just can't see where I have a
real complaint. A boycott? You gotta be kidding me, dude. Get a
grip on reality.
I don't know about any of you who have had to fix and restore pins
over the past 10 years, but my life would've been a LOT harder without
the efforts of Clay! And I never thanked him, or emailed him, or
anything. Never met the guy. But I'm glad people like Clay are in
the hobby, and so I'll take this time to say a long overdue 'Thanks a
lot for that extraordinary effort, Clay!"
ldnayman
vitriol from the NYC pinball cabal?
So unseemly.
stevenp
Ah, where to start. (OK, I'll move beyond not knowing how to spell
'ridiculous'!) Yes, Clay *compiled* the info from many sources (much of
it his own, admittedly). People submitted the info to have it publicly
available online to the entire community. Clay has no copyright to the
photos and written descriptions given to him by others. He didn't even
host the website out of his own pocket. And his decree of selling copies
of the site on CD for a requisite donation of $10 is commercialization.
(A 'donation' is voluntary; having to pay $10/$11 to receive a copy of
the CD is a sale, even if you try to call it a donation.) Not to
mention unauthorized use of material copyrighted by others. And it looks
like wheels are turning to do exactly as you suggest: put together a
comprehensive, OPEN wiki for pin repair info online. I'm sure it will
start out with much of the 3rd-party info that found its way into the
pinrepair pages.
As for taking Clay for granted--huh?? None of this would bother anybody
if he were taken for granted! Quite the opposite. And it is also clear
that many people would gladly pay for the info. Not for an
inconvenient/static CD, but for a sub to the online info. (Although even
then, the proceeds should be divided amongst the contributors fairly if
they so desire.) I think the multiple posts in multiple threads, and
the angst expressed therein, are an indication that Clay's efforts are
much appreciated and seen as a most valuable contribution to the pinball
community. His pulling them abruptly is confusing, to say the least. But
then again, I don't knwo the guy personally. (But I do have some TOP vhs
tapes...)
Cayle George
http://replay.web.archive.org/20090225083903/http://pinrepair.com/
-cAyle
kirb
Take, take, take...for free...now you want to screw with PPM? Not like
you were ever going to send them money anyway.
You wonder why people stop helping the hobby? It's posts like this.
Why would anyone ever do anything for free? All they get is thrown
under a bus when things with good intentions don't go the mob's way.
Sad
Kirb
kirb
Guys like you are the problem....you didn't contribute anything but
are crying the loudest.
Stop it already. The more insane bitching you guys do to save a buck
will only hurt the chances of this information going back up for free.
You can't keep taking from the hobby without giving something back.
How much work do YOU plan to provide?
Kirb
snyper2099
else's work for a profit/donation when they created it to be free. It
doesn't matter that the money is going to a non-profit either. I
archived the free website years ago and really don't care if it's up
or not. I do want to state that the repair guides were created to be
free and trying to take money in and offer those guides in return is
just plain wrong.
frenchy
people still want to see this stuff? I tried it on the EM page and it
still comes up. I am a total internet dummy, but while that cache
can't be relied on for being fully up to date, this page said April
17. Other than that I know zippo about how Google cache works or how/
when it's saved. Anyway it was 1000x better than the login screen I
saw on the real page, boooo!
CEG
try clicking on one of the links on the em page.. You can only view
the titles.
frenchy
view
> the titles.>>
Yeah, you don't click the links cuz they are now dead. You have to
copy and paste each link you want to look at into google, then search
and it should show up at or near the top. Then click on the 'cached'
on that and the cached page will show up. Did a few hours ago
anyway. I don't know how long the stuff is gauranteed to still show
up in Google though, or how much of it. Even if it works for all the
stuff one wanted to look at, it is a pain but better than nothing.
If the 'main' link comes up dead too, you have to do the whole google
thing for it too before you do the same to it's links.
Fishbeadtwo
Hey, here's an idea. Put the pages back up and use a paypal button for
those who wish to contribute to the cause, maybe even have options for
the donation destination, IE: PHOF, PPM or even the fine people that
comprise team EM. Give the people what they want and they will be
happy to share is my philosphy.
John In WI
Someone would be pissed off because they were left off the donate list.
--
"A man who wants to do something will find a way; a man who doesn't will
find an excuse."
- Stephen Dooley, Jr. -
stevenp
kirb;1680787 Wrote:
>
> Guys like you are the problem....you didn't contribute anything but
> are crying the loudest.
>
> Stop it already. The more insane bitching you guys do to save a buck
> will only hurt the chances of this information going back up for free.
> You can't keep taking from the hobby without giving something back.
> How much work do YOU plan to provide?
>
> Kirb
Pay attention. I'll type REEEAAALLLL slow so you can follow, and try my
best to use small words.
1) It's not about the money. I have said that a few times as have many
other people. In fact, I said I would gladly pay $10 or more to keep the
info up--online. Having it only on CD/DVD is not good (had to replace
'inconvenient' here--word is too big). And updates can't be made and
accessed.
2) Many people took photos or wrote up info for the guides to be given
out freely. Clay has no right to make a deal for paid copies of this
info from PPM. It includes work that is not his and that he did not get
the OK to charge for.
3) Besides many contributions to the local pinball scene, I have
offered to edit any other pin repair docs to help out. I plan to do so
for the wiki to make the info easier to read.
Are you getting some of these basic points now, that you clearly missed
through dozens of posts? (It's tough writing responses using only
smaller words.)
Big12bus
It is about the money. He asked for 10 bucks for the Pacfic pinball
museum so you could use material he has compiled for years. Yes all
about the money. I am shocked he or someone else hasn't charged for
it in the past.
Give your 10 bucks and shut up.
Bill
Randy P.
"if PPM persists in trying to carry out this farce, I'll be happy to
represent anyone who
wants to sue for copyright infringement. (I'm an IP lawyer by day.)
Consider it my "donation" to the pinball community."
This turned out to be a poorly conceived idea, and before PPM or Clay
have even had a day to consider a different approach, you're offering
to represent the "victims."
Thank you for reaffirming my idea of what a helpful and generous bunch
of folks attorneys are.
With people (and I use the term loosely) like you in the mix, I
wouldn't blame Clay for simply pulling the plug on the whole thing and
saying screw you idiots. He can't do anything without a gang of thugs
throwing shit on him, and now a sleazy attorney is offering to *sue*
him for trying to help a pinball museum?
To the cooler heads reading this thread, I suggest you give PPE and
Clay a chance to figure out a solution that makes more sense.
Obviously they realize this was a bad idea, and I can't help but feel
that they'll come up with a better option if we'll just give them more
than a day to figure it out before calling for boycotts and lawsuits
and demands to remove certain content.
My feeling is they will just pull the plug on the whole thing, because
PPE will not be allowed to "sell" the content on DVDs whether it is
offered elsewhere for free or not (because even if only a few people
continue to object to "their" content being sold, it will not be worth
the effort,) and the only way Clay can escape the constant criticism
and threats is to just turn off the site. It will still be out there
for people to access, but he can take himself out of the picture. Who
could blame hiim?
Randy
skip34
Has it been considered that the pinball repair site was hacked and taken
over by those who set up a paypal site to line their pockets. No cd/dvd
will be issued and everyone who paid $10.00/$11.00 is out of luck???
--
skip34
seymour.shabow
Several people have charged for it in the past. Someone was selling
repair guides on a cd on ebay for several years; when asked what the
content was, no response..... but really, what else would it have been?
Pinball lizard used to sell 'tips' books.
Lots of other people sell books; most of them aren't newbie friendly.
One of them implies that for solid state games you hire a repair person
to fix it. That's just brilliant, buy a repair guide, so that the
advice for that type of game is to hire someone else to fix it. The EM
information in it isn't great either.
Bill, it's really NOT about the 10 bucks. It's about the information
being free to aid people, given freely with the understanding that it
continue to be free(ly) available.
Telling someone what their opinion should be and then telling them to
"shut up" is pretty damn closed-minded. Don't like Stevenp's opinion?
Fine, post that. For all the BS opinions that can fly in RGP there's
great kill files for that. No one person or group here 'rules' RGP and
that's what makes it great. We all certainly have strongly held
convictions and opinions, and there's zip wrong with us agreeing to
disagree (wax wars, best way to rebuild stern flippers, etc.)
I personally have a huge problem with censorship and "shouting" other
people down.
-scott CARGPB#29
seymour.shabow
> On Apr 21, 2:30 pm, stevenp <steven...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "if PPM persists in trying to carry out this farce, I'll be happy to
> represent anyone who
> wants to sue for copyright infringement. (I'm an IP lawyer by day.)
> Consider it my "donation" to the pinball community."
>
> This turned out to be a poorly conceived idea, and before PPM or Clay
> have even had a day to consider a different approach, you're offering
> to represent the "victims."
>
> Thank you for reaffirming my idea of what a helpful and generous bunch
> of folks attorneys are.
>
Wow, that's really nice. Hopefully you won't ever need an attorney in
your life for something where you truly have been wronged.
> With people (and I use the term loosely) like you in the mix,
That's a fine piece of vitriolic rhetoric there. Calling someone
non-human? I won't even respond to the rest of your thread. I'll leave
it at Don't know you, Don't wanna know you.
stevenp
Randy P.;1681215 Wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2:30*pm, stevenp <steven... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:
> [personal snipes edited]
>
> To the cooler heads reading this thread, I suggest you give PPE and
> Clay a chance to figure out a solution that makes more sense.
> Obviously they realize this was a bad idea, and I can't help but feel
> that they'll come up with a better option if we'll just give them more
> than a day to figure it out before calling for boycotts and lawsuits
> and demands to remove certain content.
>
> My feeling is they will just pull the plug on the whole thing, because
> PPE will not be allowed to "sell" the content on DVDs whether it is
> offered elsewhere for free or not (because even if only a few people
> continue to object to "their" content being sold, it will not be worth
> the effort,) and the only way Clay can escape the constant criticism
> and threats is to just turn off the site. It will still be out there
> for people to access, but he can take himself out of the picture. Who
> could blame hiim?
>
> Randy
If you read this whole thread, you will note that I followed up early
on to clarify this as an attention-getter to motivate positive action,
not a call-to-arms. And, believe it or not, I think I am doing a
positive service to PPM by alerting them to the fact that they do not
have rights to sell the pinrepair website on DVD/CD. (Yes, a mandatory
'contribution' is essentially a sale.) Last I heard, they are still
planning to press and sell some of these. And if anyone ever steals
something from you, I'm sure you'll feel a bit differently about
attorneys. Believe me, it's water off my back--you and your opinions
mean absolutely nothing at all to me.
All that I (and most people here) want is to make the information
easily available online. And most of us are willing to contribute money
to help support the effort if that is the issue. (It doesn't seem to be;
the site is hosted by a generous 3rd party.)
I agree with your last paragraph. I think it would be better if Clay
just walked away from this and left the info for others to maintain and
make available to the community.
I still cannot understand why he would want to take the info offline,
with or without requesting/requiring donations, and make it available
only on CD/DVD as the plan was presented. That is the main issue with
many people here, myself included. The establishment of a new pinball
repair wiki seems to be the alternative solution that is taking shape.
Perhaps this would be preferable to leaving control of the info in the
hands of one erratic personality.
I'm retiring from this topic now. Too many blowhards who don't seem to
'get it.' I do hope things are resolved to the benefit of the entire
pin community.
stevenp
Big12bus;1681198 Wrote:
Please re-read point (1) above. Or ask somebody to read it and explain
it to you, as you clearly have trouble comprehending this simple
concept. Then re-read point (2) above, and look up what 'compiling'
means. He put together the info provided by others for the intent of
open, free distribution. The collected info is not his to sell or assign
freely.
*sheesh*
Josh Lehan - Krellan
> community together." UH-HUH. Can't you just feel the love in the air as
> we celebrate your wonderful plan to bring all the pinheads together in
> harmony? I can feel a chorus of Kumbaya welling in my chest. Check all
> the online discussions of the PPM pinrepair hostage situation to see the
> unification. Actually, the only consensus I see is that people are
> uniformly PO'd about the guides being taken offline.
Agreed. There's other problems, not just about money:
1) Many people new to the pinball hobby, try searching online for
pinball repair tips, and Clay's guides were often the first thing that
was found. They've helped a lot of people fix their games and get
them running again. The alternative is to try to hack the repair
yourself (often resulting in damage) or call a pro to come over and
fix it (expensive, thus discouraging you from getting into the pinball
hobby). I know at least one person in this situation. With the
information taken down, there will be fewer working games in the
world, which will be a shame.
2) Several people made contributions to Clay's guides, with the
expectation the material would be incorporated into the guide and left
online for others to read. Had they known the work would have been
taken offline and made commercial, they wouldn't have been inclined to
contribute their knowledge for free. The work as a whole would
suffer, due to less people working on it.
3) With the online site taken down, and the material now distributed
only on CD, the material is now static. It won't be updated. Having
a live website means that the text can be updated at any time,
mistakes can be corrected, new material can be added, and so forth.
It becomes a living document, instead of yet another piece of
consumable media that will grow stale and be forgotten over the years.
4) It happened all of a sudden. Perhaps a "tip jar" might have been
appropriate to add first, if having the site up for free was becoming
cost prohibitive. I would have been happy to donate some money, had
it been voluntary, and not coerced.
Josh
Josh Lehan - Krellan
> trying to carry out this farce, I'll be happy to represent anyone who
> wants to sue for copyright infringement. (I'm an IP lawyer by day.)
> Consider it my "donation" to the pinball community.
Nice that you're an IP lawyer.
What do you think about the "GNU Free Documentation License"?
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html
If the GNU FDL were applied to a new site that was created, do you
think it would be enough to protect against somebody doing something
like this in the future? The idea is to give contributors protection
against their work later being taken commercial without their consent.
Josh
cody chunn
How ironic is it that Clay himself, when he was getting started, basically
copied those copyrighted publications and then posted them on the internet
for free, killing their value and stealing money from The Pinball Lizard.
But hey, Clay was a great guy then because he was disseminating a property
formerly only available by purchase for free.
My how the tables have turned. I guess Clay finally has an inkling what he
put Joel through.
-cody
"seymour.shabow" wrote in message
news:4db1d9b5$0$19798$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org...
Pinball Revival Co.
> Clay did what he did with taking the pin repair guides offline. No one
> seems happy about this. But the coerced contribution to Pacific Pinball
> Museum to get a CD of the guide bears closer inspection. If PPM had any
> hand in coming up with this hostage scheme (and yes, I do consider
> taking material offline that was contributed by many people for
> FREE/PUBLIC dissemination a hostage situation!), then I vote for
> boycotting this organization that allegedly wants to promote pinball.
> Anyone with half a brain or more would realize that taking the pinrepair
> manuals offline would generally HURT the pinball community. And I doubt
> that this whole donation arrangement was done without PPM's full
> knowledge and cooperation.
>
> As "Pinball Revival CO." wrote in a related thread:
>
> "Clay has generously allowed us an opportunity to
> utilize all of his work and efforts over the years to no only help our
> cause, but to bring the material before a larger and more diverse
> group of people.and I personally applaud him for that. He has been a
> very valuable and appreciated friend of the PPM and PPE for several
> years. His free contributuions to the pinball community at large are
> unequaled, and in no way should be overshadowed or diminished by a
> skewed perspective of his magnanomous gesture. Pinball is for
> everyone, not just the serious collector, or the world class
> tournament player....everyone. You can choose to ask what's in it for
> want to be inclusive and bring all factions of the pinball community
> together."
>
> the pin community being unequaled).
>
> "Bring the material before a larger and more diverse group"???
> Bullscheisse!!! How does taking information OFF of a public website and
> REQUIRING a donation to get a CD MAILED to you improve dissemination of
> the info??? Exactly who is going to buy this CD who wouldn't find and
> access it more easily online? Simple question, but I see no ready answer
> for such a BS assertion.
>
> community together." UH-HUH. Can't you just feel the love in the air as
> we celebrate your wonderful plan to bring all the pinheads together in
> harmony? I can feel a chorus of Kumbaya welling in my chest. Check all
> the online discussions of the PPM pinrepair hostage situation to see the
> unification. Actually, the only consensus I see is that people are
> uniformly PO'd about the guides being taken offline.
>
> completely (Clay was not hosting the website himself, nor paying for the
> hosting), nor for PPM to sell CDs that includes copyrighted information
> contributors state they have NOT given consent. Heck, if PPM persists in
> trying to carry out this farce, I'll be happy to represent anyone who
> wants to sue for copyright infringement. (I'm an IP lawyer by day.)
> Consider it my "donation" to the pinball community.
>
decision to take the website down (that cannot be understated and is
irrefutable - PERIOD). None, zilch, nada, zippo!! This assertion/
assumption is just simply not true at any level and does not reflect
the reality of the situation at all and has absolutely no evidence to
support it There is/was no coersion or impropriety of any kind and
any accusations to that effect are unfounded and without any merit
whatsoever. No part of my previous post is untrue, false or "patently
BS" as one very uninformed opinion of it suggests. There is no great
conspiracy, there is no secret agenda. Let's all take a breath and
maybe reserve accusations for when actual evidence and actions warrant
them, not just because were angry and need someone to blame.
phishrace
wrote:
> No part of my previous post is untrue...
You implied that I was 'hurling empty veiled accusations' in your
reply to me. That wasn't true. I wasn't making accusations of any kind
and I don't appreciate you suggesting I was.
If that wasn't directed at me (in your reply to me), please let us
know who it was directed at.
-phish
Ron Strom
Well, here's another opinion that will also probably mean nothing to
you.
I do not understand your "if anyone ever steals something from you" in
the context of this information. The folks donating the info to the
guides did so to help other pinheads, full well knowing the information
would be distributed widely and with no profit to them or anyone else.
Nothing has changed. The information would have still been distributed
to help others with no one lining their pockets since it is a non-profit
organization. Yeah, the "contribution/sale" definitely could have been
handled better.
As to the folks who now want their information pulled from the site,
it's my opinion that they only want to help others if the "game" is
played their way, otherwise they're going to take their ball and go
home, thereby no longer helping anyone.
If any information I contributed ended up in the guides and helped
someone, I could care less how it's distributed or for free or profit.
If it helped someone, fine. Christ, it's not a novel.
>
> All that I (and most people here) want is to make the information
> easily available online. And most of us are willing to contribute money
> to help support the effort if that is the issue. (It doesn't seem to be;
> the site is hosted by a generous 3rd party.)
>
> I agree with your last paragraph. I think it would be better if Clay
> just walked away from this and left the info for others to maintain and
> make available to the community.
>
> I still cannot understand why he would want to take the info offline,
> with or without requesting/requiring donations, and make it available
> only on CD/DVD as the plan was presented. That is the main issue with
> many people here, myself included. The establishment of a new pinball
> repair wiki seems to be the alternative solution that is taking shape.
> Perhaps this would be preferable to leaving control of the info in the
> hands of one erratic personality.
>
> I'm retiring from this topic now. Too many blowhards who don't seem to
> 'get it.' I do hope things are resolved to the benefit of the entire
> pin community.
>
>
> --
> stevenp
> This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
>
>
--
Ron -- CARGPB7 - ronlstr@?.com (Change the ? to q to email)
firepower
You may be able to provide a link (or a file) to help someone fix their
personal game for home use. I say may, because it's likely someone
owning prior rights to the diagram would turn a blind eye to that use.
Think about schematics and manuals hosted online at IPDB and you will
understand my point. Gottlieb doesn't let them be hosted, at all.
It becomes a whole different animal if that information is packaged up
and sold - or provided for a $10 'donation' to a charity (which in this
case is essentially a transaction which can be construed as a sale).
If I made a 'collection' of all the game schematics online and sold them
on a CD (probably a DVD as there are that many from the different
manufacturers) - then I would be breaking the spirit of why they were
hosted and available to me, and someone could come back and enforce
copyright.
Sure, if you are providing "facts" or "game repair tips" only then what
you say is probably true. It's not just the facts themselves, but the
diagrams, pictures, EROM images, which are likely to be the problem.
Same difference between watching a DVD movie with a few of your friends
(in your new 'home cinema') and making 5 copies of the same movie and
selling it to the same friends for $10 each. In both cases the result
is the same, your friends get to watch the movie! The latter clearly
violates copyright, I believe the former does not so long as you charge
nothing (and receive nothing) for the viewing.
I could be way off base legally here, but I suspect I am not. I am not
a lawyer, but others on the thread understand the finer points here.
Say I copied a ROM and provided it to Clay. He can do what he likes
with it, not my problem. He may even mention my name with thanks. But
as soon as that EPROM image which has a copyright notice) is sold- we
are both dropped in it. Why can't you understand that?
-Richard
Big12bus
Steve, I was wrong in the way I came off on my post. I guess I am
tired of all the BS from this. You points are valid just as Mr.
Kaplan's about the subject. Please accept my apology.
Bill
cody chunn
> understand my point. Gottlieb doesn't let them be hosted, at all.
Actually, there are pieces of Gottlieb schematics and manuals reproduced in
the repair guides. I wonder why that is allowed?
-cody
"firepower" wrote in message news:Ewwsp.48609$Hl6....@newsfe23.ams2...
evolve-studios (Ken)
Just send clay 10 bucks for his hard work over the years and use the
online archived versions.
Everyones whining like little babies - what work did they steal from
you thats worth suing over,
how to solder a TIP102? I mean this stuff is so minor. Take the work
you did and add it to the
pinwiki - that way its free again.
maybe your works not included in the CD to begin with, lets see what's
on the CD then start bitching
Septo
coming off as a bunch of basement-dwelling mamma's boys with their
panties in a knot. Its a hobby, a pastime-whatever you want to call
it. Get over it. In every hobby there are jerks. This one is not an
exception, but maybe-just we should just concentrate on what is really
important. Our families, our health, our freedoms. If you don't like
what is going on that's fine. Move on. You're not going to change
anything by whining here.
Jay
metallik
I beg to disagree.
http://www.pinrepair.com/bally/index1.htm#tp
...doesn't work anymore. None of the content URLs work anymore. That
is a major change. Clay has replaced hyperlinks (modern, convenient)
with CD-only distribution (horribly inconvenient). If someone wants
to fix their game and needs to use the guide, they must wait for a CD
with the information to be shipped. THAT is a major change. To say
"nothing has changed" is asinine :)
Had pinrepair been solely comprised of Clay's content, all we could do
would be grumble and accept it, but it's not solely his content.
Everyone who sent their content for the guide expected it to remain
accessible, freely, via hyperlink. Clay changed that suddenly,
turning it into a pay-only physical medium, and that really upset some
contributors. That is a BIG problem.
If you can't understand that simple, concise explanation, I don't know
what else to say. The PPM and the charge/donation of $10 are quite
secondary to the real problem.
evolve-studios (Ken)
If you can't understand that everything is here I don't know what else
to say http://replay.web.archive.org/20090225083903/http://pinrepair.com/
cody chunn
Drive through!
-cody
"Septo" wrote in message
news:584a1fce-d84e-4ccf...@j25g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
Welcome to Wayback.
Loading...
as close to the date:
8:39:03 Feb 25, 2009
as is available..
Then loops back to itself over and over.
Drive through!
-cody
"evolve-studios (Ken)" wrote in message
news:78a0d6a8-9492-4cfb...@v16g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
metallik
> to sayhttp://replay.web.archive.org/20090225083903/http://pinrepair.com/
Relying on a third party cache is not a long-term solution, especially
when Clay can have that cache removed.
evolve-studios (Ken)
agreed but till things get sorted out - its a temp solution.
stevenp
Pinball Revival Co.;1681421 Wrote:
>
> To be perfectly clear, PPM played no part whatsoever in Clay's
> decision to take the website down (that cannot be understated and is
> irrefutable - PERIOD). None, zilch, nada, zippo!! This assertion/
> assumption is just simply not true at any level and does not reflect
> the reality of the situation at all and has absolutely no evidence to
> support it There is/was no coersion or impropriety of any kind and
> any accusations to that effect are unfounded and without any merit
> whatsoever. No part of my previous post is untrue, false or "patently
> BS" as one very uninformed opinion of it suggests. There is no great
> conspiracy, there is no secret agenda. Let's all take a breath and
> maybe reserve accusations for when actual evidence and actions warrant
> them, not just because were angry and need someone to blame.
OK, I have to ask now because I really need to know. Did Clay arrange
the deal to allow PPM to sell the pinrepair DVDs, and NEVER mention that
the online manuals would be taken down? Idf this is true, then I was
wrong and apologize for reaching the wrong conclusion.
OTOH, I highly doubt that this wasn't mentioned at all while working
out the donation/DVD arrangement. I will allow for the possibility that
Clay may have been quirky enough to not mention that 'minor' fact to
PPM. But, admittedly, I am not in possession of these facts.
So, if PPM was truly unaware that the pinrepair site would be taken
offline as part of this arrangement, then I apologize. And I do commend
them for doing the smart thing by not pressing/shipping the DVDs.
That said, I'm all for making contributions to PPM or any other pinball
organization(s) of your choice. And to the new pinwiki that is picking
up the pieces of this fiasco, if any funds are needed there too.
ldnayman
>
> OK, I have to ask now because I really need to know. Did Clay arrange
> the deal to allow PPM to sell the pinrepair DVDs, and NEVER mention that
> the online manuals would be taken down? Idf this is true, then I was
> wrong and apologize for reaching the wrong conclusion.
Ask all you want. You are a newbie and nobody gives a fuck about you
or your petty inquisition, and nobody is going to tell you shit.
Thanks and good night.
firepower
But dude- that's harsh! What happened to cooperation and civil manners
around here between us pinball enthusiasts? I know it's a newsgroup,
but how does it further the discussion to say that?
Get real- it's only a repair guide. It isn't a life or death situation.
The information still exists in the community. The sun will rise
tomorrow and you may feel different after a good nights rest. You may
feel reborn on Easter day, I hope you do.
BTW- I might like to learn the whole story, that's not unreasonable
although it won't solve the issue. Regarding the thread title, not a
good idea. Having groups that further pinball is a good thing. If
everyone put this much energy into positive things, we could make a
difference to pinball as a whole. Pick your favorite pinball .org /
charity/Wiki/show and offer something, your time use of your games or money.
Happy Easter to you, ldnayman. And all at RGP.
stevenp
ldnayman;1682342 Wrote:
Levi--Grow up. And don't ever cross my path in person. I don't want to
soil my good nature with your petty presence.
bigehrl
> or your petty inquisition, and nobody is going to tell you shit.
> Thanks and good night.
top 10 reasons why i know levi needs to get laid, really, really
badly....
10) he's way too angry at nothing to be getting laid regularly.
9) he responded to stevenp 6 min. after his latest post, at 3:26 in
the morning!
8) oh, whatever, i don't need 10 reasons, i think i proved my point..
coming soon...
levi's wise-guy response, which is both political and unrelated to
anything other than helping his own cause...
this is me bracing myself :#
-jon - reciprocal nyc