Just donated 1 cent to Pacific Pinball Museum
firepower
tell them to as well. I just clicked on that old "donate" button right
here: http://pacificpinball.org/get-involved/donations
...and sent them one US penny. I will probably cost them that to get
the donation from Paypal.
Am I a complete d!ckhead? Yeah, maybe so. But I wanted to get their
attention, as I am not one of the "happy band of campers" that blithely
sent out $10 because pinrepair.com says to do so "or else". And no,
it's not about the ten bucks.
We always supplied information with the ethos that it is not charged for
in *any* way. That's why we provided information to pinrepair.com... it
was with that express understanding.
PPM have offered information on a CD from the pinrepair.com site which
isn't actually theirs to offer to supply. Incidentally, as soon as you
start to charge, it might be putting *me* (and others I know) in
violation of rights held by WMS, Bally Gotlieb... etc.
I plan to revoke the use of my information on the site and the PPM CD,
am I completely wrong here? Please advise what *you* think.
Personally I think Clay's action will polarise the whole of the RGP
community. While I respect his efforts and suspect he tries to do
things for the benefit of pinball... this was not a well though out
decision.
More harm will come of it than good, and it's just another nail in
pinball's coffin.
-Richard
stevenp
firepower;1680463 Wrote:
> Yep. You read it right. I suggest others to freely give as their hearts
>
> tell them to as well. I just clicked on that old "donate" button right
>
> here: http://pacificpinball.org/get-involved/donations
>
>
> the donation from Paypal.
>
> Am I a complete d!ckhead? Yeah, maybe so. But I wanted to get their
> attention, as I am not one of the "happy band of campers" that blithely
>
> sent out $10 because pinrepair.com says to do so "or else". And no,
> it's not about the ten bucks.
>
> We always supplied information with the ethos that it is not charged
> for
> in *any* way. That's why we provided information to pinrepair.com...
> it
> was with that express understanding.
>
> PPM have offered information on a CD from the pinrepair.com site which
>
> isn't actually theirs to offer to supply. Incidentally, as soon as you
>
> start to charge, it might be putting *me* (and others I know) in
> violation of rights held by WMS, Bally Gotlieb... etc.
>
> I plan to revoke the use of my information on the site and the PPM CD,
>
> am I completely wrong here? Please advise what *you* think.
>
> Personally I think Clay's action will polarise the whole of the RGP
> community. While I respect his efforts and suspect he tries to do
> things for the benefit of pinball... this was not a well though out
> decision.
>
> More harm will come of it than good, and it's just another nail in
> pinball's coffin.
>
> -Richard
I agree with you and, as I just posted in my "boycott" thread, I am
willing to help anyone whose copyrighted material has been
misappropriated through this action.
--
stevenp
This USENET post sent from http://rgparchive.com
Lloyd Olson
Try and move forward in a positive manner.
We haven't heard anything from clay. Long range plans, or anything.
It seems foolish to punish the Pacific Pinball Museum.
You asked what I think. There it is. LTG :)
"firepower" <harvey_r@_ANTI_SPAM_tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fc1sp.41560$bT6....@newsfe05.ams2...
Tim N.
wrote:
I would love to use your information to create a site with Mario to
help the guides evolve even further than they have previously. Think
of this as a great opportunity to help pinball survive and bring new
blood into the hobby.
Magic Mike
You're only hurting yourself in the long run by encouraging childish BS like
this.
Mike
phishrace
> What I think is please don't do things like this.
>
> Try and move forward in a positive manner.
>
> We haven't heard anything from clay. Long range plans, or anything.
>
> It seems foolish to punish the Pacific Pinball Museum.
>
> You asked what I think. There it is. LTG :)
Completely agree.
-phish
firepower
> I would love to use your information to create a site with Mario to
> help the guides evolve even further than they have previously. Think
> of this as a great opportunity to help pinball survive and bring new
> blood into the hobby.
I already wrote to Mario earlier and offered help and what I have. I'm
not just bashing Clay and PPM. Think of this as an "affirmative action"
- it's not about the museum.
I look at it like this (consider this pinrepair parable):
I offer to build a trail up a mountain "for the good of the community".
Come help me build it, everyone can freely use our path once we
complete it! I pass out information, on flyers etc. saying that. You
all labour, give up your time, abilities, whatever. It isn't easy work
but we get it done. Together. Wonderful.
Then later on I put up a gate on the path and start to charge admission.
Oh... but it's OK - it's for a charity.
Now... how do you feel? Are you cool with that?
-Richard
firepower
> What I think is please don't do things like this.
>
> Try and move forward in a positive manner.
>
> We haven't heard anything from clay. Long range plans, or anything.
>
> It seems foolish to punish the Pacific Pinball Museum.
>
> You asked what I think. There it is. LTG :)
>
Thanks for your opinion, Lloyd. Please explain how I "punished" PPM? I
sent them a donation. I said everyone should do what their heart tells
them to. If your heart says the send them $100 - do that. $1,000 ? do
it. I don't mind, and if you do then you clearly have a happier and
more magnanimous heart than I do in this instance.
This isn't about PPM. It's about availability. Access. And what
someone cynically does with what I consider to be my information and
effort. You completely missed the point and are usually quick at seeing
right to the bottom of things.
But thanks. I'll think about it some more, maybe I'm just over-reacting.
-Richard
stevenp
Lloyd Olson;1680474 Wrote:
> What I think is please don't do things like this.
>
> Try and move forward in a positive manner.
>
> We haven't heard anything from clay. Long range plans, or anything.
>
> It seems foolish to punish the Pacific Pinball Museum.
>
> You asked what I think. There it is. LTG :)
>
Lloyd, I agree with your sentiments. But (as I posted in my 'alarmist'
boycott thread) PPM had to be fully involved in this donation scheme.
Clay is Clay and he'll do what he'll do. But I think PPM should also be
accountable for their part in devising this coerced contribution scheme
and encouraging having the pinrepair info taken offline. Simply stated,
they should have known better, even if Clay did not.
I'm all for a positive resolution to this. And I'll be happy to
contribute $10 (or more) to keep the repair info online and available.
But that is not even an option right now. Generating a pin repair wiki,
a significant effort, will also take significant time. Having written
a boatload of technical articles that are acknowledged as being clear
and easy to follow (in contrast to my more convoluted forum/newsgroup
style), I'll be happy to help with editing/wordsmithing of any
freely-available online pinball resources.
Pinthetic
I'm a firm believer in sometimes you just have to make a statement.
You have, and have been heard. Check your emotions and like Lloyd
said, go forward. We will with you along with the show. I was worried
about how this would go but the response is amazing. You guys here are
blowing me away with your eagerness to participate. My mailbox is
taking a beating right now and that is not political rhetoric, it's
fact. It will take some time but in the meantime if anyone is hurting
for repair info put that request out to this group and someone will
get you the info you need I am sure.
So if it makes you feel good to donate a penny, go ahead. Let's stay a
community, regardless.
Mario
On Apr 21, 3:03 pm, firepower <harvey_r@_ANTI_SPAM_tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
Tim N.
wrote:
> >
Awesomeon working with Mario, good to see this hasnt left a bad enough
taste in your mouth to stop contributing to the community. While I
agree it wasn't a good thing to do, the focus of your actions are the
positive impact it has on the hobby. I view this as more of a "fool me
once, shame on you".... Because of actions taken, you now know there
won't be a "fool me twice". Should Clay move forward, re-open the
guides, and do some updating, how many people are going to contribute
now based on his actions? His actions aren't heinous by any means, but
they certainly have left a bad enough taste in everyone's mouth, that
people will pause a bit longer before deciding to take another
drink....
metallik
>
> We haven't heard anything from clay. Long range plans, or anything.
And who's fault is this? Clay knows how to use a PC and I know he's
reading this thread.
> It seems foolish to punish the Pacific Pinball Museum.
They know how to use the internet as well, and have certainly received
a number of complaints, both from people who want the guides restored
to online versions, and those who's works have been hijacked. Their
silence is telling.
> You asked what I think. There it is. LTG :)
I think that I do like the PPM and their goal of preserving the
history of pinball, but as I told Greywolf on IRC, the longer this
situation persists, the further onto my shitlist they'll go. They're
just as much a party to this nonsense as Clay. PPM is getting away
with this so far *only* because of their good reputation. I can
imagine the shitstorm if something more controversial was the object
of the forced donations.
Ron Lyons
childish behavior is what got Clay's joint shut down which in turn got
his site shut down because he's fed up with it. This isn't the huge
deal everybody's making it out to be. The info's still archived, the
info's still free, you can still post your info however you would
like, and nobody's being stolen from. I think people should calm
down.
If you truly feel slighted by this, they way to get anybody back that
you have a problem with is to do it better than they did. Girlfriend
dumps you? Get a hotter girlfriend. Clay shuts his website down?
Make a better website.
This is not rocket science :)
Lloyd Olson
cost them that to claim it ?
That would seem more harm than good. LTG :)
"firepower" <harvey_r@_ANTI_SPAM_tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CX1sp.4875$Ir....@newsfe13.ams2...
> >
> Thanks for your opinion, Lloyd. Please explain how I "punished" PPM? I
> sent them a donation.
> -Richard
Ron Lyons
wrote:
> I offer to build a trail up a mountain "for the good of the community".
> Come help me build it, everyone can freely use our path once we
> complete it! I pass out information, on flyers etc. saying that. You
> all labour, give up your time, abilities, whatever. It isn't easy work
> but we get it done. Together. Wonderful.
>
> Then later on I put up a gate on the path and start to charge admission.
> Oh... but it's OK - it's for a charity.
>
> Now... how do you feel? Are you cool with that?
>
> -Richard
Richard that's a rediculous analogy.
Here's a better one.
You decide to build a path up the mountain for the betterment of the
public, you pass out information, you all labor give up your time
abilities, whatever... it isn't easy work, but we get it done.
Together. Wonderful.
Then later on, you decide to stop keeping the path cleared.
Everybody throws a shit fit and says you're trying to kill them when
you ask for donations to the National Wildlife Refuge to keep the path
trimmed.
Instead of somebody else simply taking over and keeping the path
cleared, you're villianized for no longer participating.
homebrood
When I heard the PPM speaches at Expo two years ago, and they took
over half of the other speakers time, and pushed some people out all
together, I got the vibe that they were trying to take over
everything, thought they were better than everyone, and they thought
they were entitled... This shit now does not surprise me...Shit Stinks
no matter what kind of perfume you put on it!
Tom
William Brower
I think we should just let this ride out for now. All this BS is not
helping the matter one bit.
We are just feeding the fire and making it worse. I think it was a
very cool thing that Clay did by having all this information available
for all to share, but everything must come to an end sometime...and
this is the end...or is it?.
I think we should support Clay, even if we think that this was or was
not the thing to do.
It sounds as if Clay is going through some tough times right now with
all the other BS that is going on. I think he just wants to step back
a few feet and gather his thoughts.
Meanwhile...I would like to see Clay start his own Museum. I know he
is the right man for the job, and his heart is definitely into this
Pinball thing. All he would have needed to do was to put banners and a
donation button up on his site, and it would at least be a start in
helping him achieve the Master Goal of owning his very own Pinball
Museum. I've been saying this all along, way before this BS.
Everything has
a meaning...Everything. More good things are going to happen for Clay,
I'm sure.
I'm just sad to see it go down like this...life goes on and so does
Pinball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaRa3yiklKk
Have a nice night.
Bill
AVP Pinball Division
news:835eb442-9e86-4e0b...@v11g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Everybody throws a shit fit and says you're trying to kill them when
> you ask for donations to the National Wildlife Refuge to keep the path
> trimmed.
>
> Instead of somebody else simply taking over and keeping the path
> cleared, you're villianized for no longer participating.
Bad analogy here. If Clay was using the money to maintain and update a
domain and website then it would be correct. If PPM took over maintenance
and updates of the site but it remained free access it would still be
correct. Instead Clay handed the trail over to the Rough Riders who now say
you must "donate" to use the community path. The path has not been cleared.
You cannot access the path without paying the toll/donation/extortion fee.
It is now someone else's path. Whether Clay did this willingly or under
duress is not known as neither he nor PPM have commented about this sudden
change.
Clay has taken public domain/open source work, where the original
contributors can claim a copyright if it's distribution does not remain
free, and handed it off to a third party who now claim they hold copyright
to all of the information and have decided to charge for it. There isn't a
single word about copyright on Clay's site. It says "free". If Clay wishes
to have his part of the community contribution pulled offline and
distributed for a "donation" that is his prerogative. Charging for the
distribution of others' works, which became part of that guide under the
condition that the information remains free of cost and free for
distribution by whatever method (print, electronic, telepathy, etc...) is
where more than one RGP member believes the line was crossed.
Many see the donation simply as the cost of doing business. It may be for
them. Others see it as a form of extortion.
The pin repair guides were by the community for the community. The
conglomeration of information has never been, as a whole, subject to
copyright as long as it was freely distributed. Public domain, open source,
probably a few other legal terms apply. Those who contributed can, under
open source/public domain rules, still claim a copyright to the material
they provided as the information is now being distributed for a fee.
Start selling CDs of "Linux", or any other well known intellectual product,
by Ron Lyons where all of the material comes from other open source/public
domain authors, who do retain copyright to their work and demand that it be
distributed without charge, and watch how quickly the C&D orders surface
followed by prosecution.
JMHFO. ;)
--
Pistol Pete
kirb
> I'm all for a positive resolution to this. And I'll be happy to
> contribute $10 (or more) to keep the repair info online and available.
Talk is as cheap as most people who say they will contribute anything.
It hardly ever happens.
Kirb
Aeneas - www.flippers.be
> contributors can claim a copyright if it's distribution does not remain
> free, and handed it off to a third party who now claim they hold copyright
> to all of the information and have decided to charge for it. There isn't a
> single word about copyright on Clay's site. It says "free". If Clay wishes
> to have his part of the community contribution pulled offline and
> distributed for a "donation" that is his prerogative. Charging for the
> distribution of others' works, which became part of that guide under the
> condition that the information remains free of cost and free for
> distribution by whatever method (print, electronic, telepathy, etc...) is
> where more than one RGP member believes the line was crossed.
I notice many people are mixing copyright / free to use / public
domain
For example, the bally/stern repair guide (and all others) clearly
state at the top:
by c...@provide.net, 02/02/09. Copyright 1999-2009, all rights
reserved.
And as far as I know these guides have been online (+10 years now)
they always stated this.
So what you're saying that there is no copyright mentioned - is
totally incorrect.
Everything written by Clay and the whole document is copyrighted by
him and should not be distributed in that identical shape.
(so taking the whole contents of his site and putting them on a mirror
site like I heard some people plan to do is a bad idea).
The guides have been free to use. But that does not make the guides
themselves public domain, or made Clay give up any rights to them.
As for people contributing things to the guide (I know I'm playing
devils advocate here) - in theory they should've known they have given
up their copyright.
Their name hadn't been added to the copyright clause, they just were
given credit for submitting things.
Imo that's Clays mistake - he should've made it more clear that people
submitting information were giving up their rights, and he should put
credit by each photo he didn't make himself.
Notice that ipdb.org is better handling this - they only allow you to
upload photos that you took yourself and you allow them full use by
uploading - if you don't agree you can't upload the pictures. See
details of a pinball machine and the name of who took the photo is
mentioned. That's legally how it should be done.
But up to now it never was a problem and as the guides grew for so
many years, it's not something you think of from the beginning and can
easily implement later.
The information in the guides however, procedures and facts, can
probably now be considered to be public domain.
Nothing stops you from re-writing everything, taking new pictures, ..
The new pin wiki is a good idea - just make sure you don't copy Clays
guides step by step - reorder the information, rewrite every word,
make new pictures, ..
and make sure people that submit thing know they are giving up their
rights to anything they submit (put a checkbox on the submit page like
ipdb does).
Btw this post is not meant to defend Clay, it's not my opinion that he
is totally correct in doing what he did, and the whole situation
could've been handled better.
I personally think this whole storm is bad for the hobby and this
group and hope it'll clear up soon.
I just wanted to rectify some blatant errors people are saying about
copyrights/public domain.
And add some more neutral point of view, as I maintain a pinball
website too.
My website is also free (I do put banner ads on it to help paying for
hosting because after all these years the costs add up), but all
articles and
pictures are still copyrighted by me.
I usually allow people to use a picture/text on their own site
(usually a translation) when they ask nice. When someone copies things
from my site without my knowledge (especially without linking back to
me and giving any credit) then I get annoyed when I find out and
demand they take it down.
When people submit things to write an article about (like
modifications they did), I give them credit for the idea, photo credit
for photos they submitted, but the copyright on that article becomes
mine. And http://www.flippers.be is mine and mine only, should I
decide to remove totally, that's my choice and when someone else would
put mirror copies online without my permission, I'd get seriously
p*ssed off..
Aeneas.
http://www.flippers.be
firepower
saw XTC with the Police in Phoenix,AZ (at a State Fair for free!) on Nov
7th 1980. An outstanding band and concert.
And I agree with your comments here, which are sensible.
As I started this thread, I'm going to use it to apologise to RGP and to
Clay Harrel. I'm sorry I over reacted.
I was upset, and really pissed off yesterday. I should have taken a
deep breath and held my tongue. I didn't, and lived to regret it now...
the next morning here. Thanks kirb, Lloyd, Hans, William and many
others that have showed more restraint.
If the donation was optional, I would gladly have donated $10 to PPM.
It was never about a few bucks. I already donate (and support in other
ways) www.IPDB.org , www.IPSND.org (.net) ... because they are useful
sites to have around.
I'm sorry for being such a 'hothead' and probably a d!ckweed too. It's
just my (our) ethos has *always* been that this stuff should be free,
any donation should be a choice the user of the information makes.
Should people donate to PPM (more than the .01 I gave?)
-------------------------------------------------------
Yes, please do. Be aware it is just that, a donation. Don't expect
more than that.
Do we need Clay's guides?
------------------------
Hell yes. There is a clear mandate from the responses. Clay has done a
lot for pinball. I'm sorry for all the recent decisions made, mine
included. It's just "the way it went down", I can't take it back now.
We have yet to hear anything concrete from Clay.
Should there be a moderated pinball repair Wiki?
-----------------------------------------------
Could there be another site, more up to date information and constantly
updated and corrected schematics? Sure. I've tried to do my part to
make that available online already. And hopefully I will be allowed to
continue to do so. I don't just take, take, take. I've spent more of my
time (and money) on this hobby than you would expect.
There's room for a pinWiki too, and as many have said it's a logical
progression. That's a more positive action to take so a repository
becomes freely available. It will take a lot of time and will not be as
useful as Clay's guides, for a while. Maybe never, time will tell.
There are quite a few pinWiki type stubs that went nowhere. Now it
looks like something will be available in future. I will help.
In summary, the intention of my message wasn't a boycott. More of an
attention getter to say "hey RPG, PPM and Clay - can't you see the
principle here is wrong?" It was a good idea, but bad execution.
Again, please try and accept my apology. I acted and spoke without
thinking it through. No one is perfect.
Peace.
-Richard
William Brower
wrote:
> Thanks for that link William. Made me think about a bigger picture. I
> saw XTC with the Police in Phoenix,AZ (at a State Fair for free!) on Nov
> 7th 1980. An outstanding band and concert.
>
> And I agree with your comments here, which are sensible.
>
> As I started this thread, I'm going to use it to apologise to RGP and to
> Clay Harrel. I'm sorry I over reacted.
>
> I was upset, and really pissed off yesterday. I should have taken a
> deep breath and held my tongue. I didn't, and lived to regret it now...
> the next morning here. Thanks kirb, Lloyd, Hans, William and many
> others that have showed more restraint.
>
> If the donation was optional, I would gladly have donated $10 to PPM.
> It was never about a few bucks. I already donate (and support in other
"Thanks for that link William. Made me think about a bigger picture.
I
saw XTC with the Police in Phoenix,AZ (at a State Fair for free!) on
Nov
7th 1980. An outstanding band and concert."
Richard,
I think that XTC is one of the most underrated bands out there. It
must have been cool to see them in concert since they don't tour much.
Andy Partridge has stage fright.
As far as regretting your post. I do it all the time...just did (Sorry
Steve). I think there is too much negativity with all this BS going
down here on RGP . But, I think that more good is going to come out of
this than bad. Now if the pinball GOD would announce himself here and
let the flock know what is going on here, It might calm some of down a
bit. I would like to be his agent, the man has endless possibilities
with his talent, and will achieve the highest goal in this great world
pinball..."Pinball God". And I shall follow and support what ever he
shall do...AMEN
I really think Clay needs a vacation, take some time off and recoup.
Life is not all Pinball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQo8aekXlnw
Thanks,
Bill