Tonights conversation with wayne gillard
Dylan
plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
interest. His reply:
"You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
use.
This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
you and the Printer who made them.
It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
tens of thousands.
Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
yourself to break the Law.
The plastics will be made in time. "
Wayne Gillard
The Pinball Factory
www.pinball.com
James
pinballkings nephew
hobby not what puts the most money in one guys pocket
bwodie
so whats the prob?
make them for your own game and be happy lol
faterikcartman
I'm pretty sure it costs a boatload of money to enforce a patent.
Since the damages would be so de minimus, I'm guessing there is a lot
of bluffing going on.
What I don't get is why a company like Stern doesn't try to buy this
joker's patent rights and actually do something with them.
pinballkings nephew
Now theres an idea! maybe shit would actually get done
Dylan
Me:
"Exactly, its about the money for you not the hobby, pinball isnt an
industry anymore for us in america its a hobby, and you leave us with
nothing
All im saying is either get the ball rolling or pass the torch."
Wayne:
"Well even IPBs parts sold to Australia, we own it all
Just like you own Vegemite and UGG boots we own your Precious Pinball
Its a commercial coin operated product not designed to be in peoples
homes, and games are long past their expiry date.
It's a business and we will make what there is a demand for and charge
what we will to make profit.
Pass the torch, I am a Millionaire Businessman, everything is for sale
for a price, however we have already declined all the piss poor offers
which caused you to loose pinball to start with."
kbliznick
you snoose you loose!
faterikcartman
I can only imagine he made his money the old fashioned way -- via
trust fund.
In my opinion one can distill his message to this: My millionaire
business genius strategy is to not make any parts for old Bally/
Williams games because there is no demand for them, and I refuse to
sell my patent rights because the fewer parts I make because no one
wants them the richer I get! I will never sell my patent rights
because the fewer parts I make the more money I make! Understand
yokels? This is a money making business and the way to make money is
to have no product! At least that's how I read it.
brainsnap
NEVER has had, NEVER will have.
It is the BIGGEST case of "bashed at school syndrome" that I have EVER
encountered.
Oh and he INHERITED the money - 'millionare businessman' my arse -
another convenient mis-truth?
He REALLY appears to be becoming more dillusional and in need of
serious help than ever before - starting with a spellchecking
gramethitist.
And Bwodie - U seemingly support his raving lunatic ?
Surely not.
Pinboy
How many lawsuits do you think he could maintain at once ?!
Magic Mike
Mike
Jazman
disdain for those in the hobby is quite frankly, embarrassing.
But, if you went and sold plastics on your own, you'd probably see
Gene at IPB coming after you as well. Maybe you should get ahold of
Gene and see what his thoughts are on making the Dr. Dude set? Or,
offer to do them yourself and have him license them?
Jaz
Adm56
Maybe he could come to Expo and give a seminar with the same theme.
evolve-studios (Ken)
Its one thing to be a good, successful business man - its another
thing to be a total arrogant A-hole.
I dont know the specifics of all this Wayne stuff being knew to the
hobby but I have my opinions of the guy and
they aren't great. I say make the plastics make a bunch of extras for
your self - if one of your buddies breaks in
and steals a few sets from you and gives them to other needy folks,
what can you do. Not your fault.
I would think a millionaire businessman would have better things to do
then relying on pinball and lawsuits
to pay the bills. This should be enjoyable its a hobby this guys
missing the point.
Pinboy
give them to anyone who wants them for FREE no charge at all (maybe to
cover shipping)? The producer (a non-profit company incorporated in
the Cayman Islands) could accept donations as people saw fit, ONLY if
they saw fit.
Any broken laws/violations there ???
Pinboy
falconfixer
Hmmm. It seems to me that people are being way to open and vocal about
this and when they do something they let everyone know about it. Let
me paint a suppositional scenario.
1. When "X" machine first came out I just happened to have bought
umpteen sets of plastics for it. I am allowed to sell those if I no
longer want or need them since the OEM was paid for them.
2. If people want one of my "NOS" sets they can send me a money order
and a letter. Nothing in e-mail.
3. They have to be recommended by someone I know before sending money.
4. If word gets out beyond the inner circle that "NOS" sets were being
sold then the supply would instantly be NLA
5. If the "NOS" sets were made well enough then it would be very
difficult for the copyright holder to tell the difference between
"NOS" and NOS.
6. If new production sets became available from the copyright owner,
then the "NOS" sets would become NLA.
Get my drift?
Please don't flood me with e-mails. I don't have any of this. Just
imagining a workaround.
Dave
evolve-studios (Ken)
I follow - but if I were wayne I would handle things different, I
would say this is how many orders we need to have for a particular
part
before we can do a run of 100 or a 1000, this is the money involved
etc - If you work with people, you wont get your head torn off. we all
know business and how things work. Dont just say deal with it i own
the rights im going to get my lawyers on you - Chill out Mate, wtf.
This just makes people want to do things behind your back.
I'll let you know if I happen to find my old set of NOS plastics they
are around here somewhere.
Jose Cuervo
not why I write...
I'm not a "millionaire businessman" but my father was (he's living but
retired). I'll tell all of you something. People with real money
don't feel the need to brandish it, don't tell others their worth.
They don't play that card because it's considered crass.
You'd never know by looking at my father, what he wears, what he
drives, even the comfortable house he lives in today that he was worth
several million $. That I admire greatly. Hell the guy worked on the
Chicago Exchange for 25 years and never drove his car there. He took
the train every day except for the day he retired. He drove his car
that day (because he had so much stuff in his office that he had to
lug out). He's quite a character.
Which brings me to Wayne Gillard. People with real money can sniff
out a phony as easily as a drug sniffing police dog can smell an ounce
of weed from a thousand yards out. He may very well have some money,
but he didn't earn it. If it was bequeathed to him he sure doesn't
know how to handle it, or conduct himself in spite of it.
PS: Some of you may know who I am. I'm on this group all the time
but created this fake profile to conceal my identity. Like my father
I don't enjoy showing off my current (or future) net worth. I like
being treated the way you all treat me here and now...the way we all
like to treat the hobby we love.
Play on...
Silverball Mike
Contacting Wayno was the first mistake. If you are looking for someone
to manufacture something, you need to check with people who have the
capability to do so. I woild have checked with CPR or IBP to see if
plans were in place to make the plastics. If not, it's time to reach
out to the next group capable of manufacturing them; RGP members.
Don't be so obvious about asking as the troll is monotoring the board.
Post a thread like "My Dr Dude plastics suck. Any ideas?". We are
pretty sharp and if your problem can be solved, it will be.
In short; please don't feed the animals!!!!!!!!!!
Mike
Makeittogo
So just buy a game and make new plastics for your machine. Then sell
the whole game back to the original owner for $150 more than you
paid. This should put the lawyers in a spin.
Repeat Again
Dylan
THIS MENTALITY that angers me:
Tony @ GLM
"NOS" ones smell like baby puke. "Repros" don't.
If you happen to have a baby in the house, you might be able to get
around that problem. :)
Tony
www.greatlakesmodular.com - Re-Engineered Pinball Parts!
Brian Munn
The question I have is if Dr. Dude is a 20 year old game. How long
does the copyright last or does it have to be renewed like a patent.
Secondly, if you made a set of plastics that are slightly different
in artwork would that be enough to get around a copyright law. Just
Curious...
Brian
Detroit Pinball
Magic Mike
> conduct himself in spite of it.
Don't you think it's a bit "crass" to suggest how someone else should handle
or behave with *their* money?
Mike
Brian Munn
>
> - Show quoted text -
My followup question is if someone owns the rights to something but
does not work on it, how long before rights are considered abadoned?
Is there a difference between saying I am going to do something versus
actually doing something.
Brian
Detroit Pinball
wbradley
> I have sent numerous requests in the past to wayne to make a dr dude
> plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
> taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
> interest. His reply:
>
> "You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
> use.
>
> This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
> can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
> costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
> you and the Printer who made them.
>
> It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
> enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
> tens of thousands.
>
> Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
> yourself to break the Law.
>
> The plastics will be made in time. "
>
> Wayne Gillard
> The Pinball Factorywww.pinball.com
Like others have said, just make your own plastics and tha's it. Why
do people want to poke into the viper pit? Its like the kid in the
school yard that keeps getting teased because he reacts the strongest
to teasing.
Just move on!
Hans
In Australia it's 70 years after the death of the author, or something
along those lines. Copyrights are protected MUCH MUCH longer than
patents. A "slightly" different set would likely fall under derived
works, and still be infringing.
Though I am also still reading through the 1968 Australian copyright
act, and it's 2006 ammendments, as supposedly there is a clause in
there that requires the created works to actually be USED to keep the
rights valid..... though that comes from Wikipedia, which means it's
useless legally, and thus I need to find the original source of that.
I am a BIT curious though. If Wayne's agreement is to only produce
things under the Bally name, and he cannot use the Williams name, then
why does all the MM cabinet artwork and translites that he shows in
his forums, that he claims to have made, all have the Williams name
and logo on them?-
-Hans
brokenvette
> On Jul 1, 12:36 am, Dylan <dylandupl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have sent numerous requests in the past to wayne to make a dr dude
> > plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
> > taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
> > interest. His reply:
>
> > "You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
> > use.
>
> > This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
> > can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
> > costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
> > you and the Printer who made them.
>
> > It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
> > enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
> > tens of thousands.
>
> > Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
> > yourself to break the Law.
>
> > The plastics will be made in time. "
>
> > Wayne Gillard
> > The Pinball Factorywww.pinball.com
>
> do people want to poke into the viper pit? Its like the kid in the
> school yard that keeps getting teased because he reacts the strongest
> to teasing.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just do what certain companies do. Have them made and let the news out
through various sources that you have USED plastics for that game.
Don't be obvious and don't rub it in anyones face. He has to prove you
have the plastics and are selling them. I certainly wouldn't pony up
anything to that douchbag that would let him prove a case against
someone else.
Hans
The abandonment stuff never got passed here in the USA that I'm aware
of. On top of that, he IS actually doing something, even if it isn't
making anything.
The fact that he is still actively working to stop other people from
using the artwork still counts as far as maintaining ownership is
concerned.
-Hans
Brian Munn
>
> - Show quoted text -
Would it be US copyright or International since the orginial copyright
was in the US....
Brian
Hans
Still digging into it, but I believe there is some type of reciprocal
agreement between the USA and Australia as far as this type of stuff
is concerned.
Makes it even more complicated because I believe that WMS is still the
OWNER of the rights, and Wayne is a licensee. At least this is the
impression I get from previous threads that discuss how they receive
their warning letters from WMS Legal and not Wayne.
-Hans
Jazman
Exactly right. WMS is still the owner of the copyrights (which don't
expire BTW unless abandoned... a much bigger discussion). Gene and
Wayne have purchased rights to use WMS copyrights. They may also be
able to defend those copyrights on behalf of WMS but that's not an
area I understand clearly.
Who was the patent and copyright lawyer on here again?
Jaz
kbliznick
> I am a BIT curious though. If Wayne's agreement is to only produce
> things under the Bally name, and he cannot use the Williams name, then
> why does all the MM cabinet artwork and translites that he shows in
> his forums, that he claims to have made, all have the Williams name
> and logo on them?-
> -Hans- Hide quoted text -
Because those are replacement parts for Williams games, and can have
the logos, If someone were to remake the machines those logos would
have to be changed to Bally.
miracleman
WayNO approved product through CPR or whoever is the only way they can
get it, they'll buy it.
The funny thing from what I've read around here, is he gets paid in
product and not cash, so I truly believe he just likes to F with
people and be a jerk.
I'm guessing he was bullied as a kid.
MrBally
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Someone no doubt has "blank receipt stock" from a long gone Williams
distributor that could prove that the "NOS" plastics were purchased
before said distributor shut down.
cpiel
> I have sent numerous requests in the past to wayne to make a dr dude
> plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
> taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
> interest. His reply:
>
> "You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
> use.
>
> This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
> can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
> costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
> you and the Printer who made them.
>
> It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
> enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
> tens of thousands.
>
> Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
> yourself to break the Law.
>
> The plastics will be made in time. "
>
> Wayne Gillard
> The Pinball Factorywww.pinball.com
You can make them for your own game under fair use = Anyone can make
them for their own game under fair use, so can a group of game owners
all pitch in to make a run for only their own games under fair use? I
would think so since no sets will be sold. If so, just query the game
owners and round up the funds - problem solved.
TBK
> You can make them for your own game under fair use = Anyone can make
> them for their own game under fair use, so can a group of game owners
> all pitch in to make a run for only their own games under fair use? I
> would think so since no sets will be sold. If so, just query the game
> owners and round up the funds - problem solved.
Along those lines, the "group" would be wise to all sell their pins to
the guy who makes the part for $1.
Then, as the part maker "tires of the title" - say, right after he put
in the new part, he sell it "back" to the original owner for $100 (or
whatever the cost of the part is).
This seems to cover all the little nuances. Of course, the group may
be wise enough to "sell" without actually shipping said pin. just be
careful when you have someone else's pin in your possession! Then
"buy" said pin back while it still sits in the place it was before the
sale.
Cheers!
~Ron R
TBK=The Biggest Kid
"Route-rat extraordinaire!"
SD Pinball Club, OC Pinball League, RGP League
kbliznick
> You can make them for your own game under fair use = Anyone can make
> them for their own game under fair use, so can a group of game owners
> all pitch in to make a run for only their own games under fair use? I
> would think so since no sets will be sold. If so, just query the game
>
> - Show quoted text -
I love the creative thinking earlier in this thread of buying the game
then adding the plastics you created and then selling the game back.
That fits under fair use.
Or how Classic Arcades is doing the PF overlays to repair old Pf's.
They are restoring PF's instead of creating new ones. This and the
Direct Ink Method of repairing old PF's are legal under fair use,
since they are restoration processes.
You can also commission someone to restore your game and they can
create the plastics for just the one game (just as you could reproduce
them) and I believe that is also fair use.
To say you can recreate them for your self is not as limiting as it
sounds. It does not mean it has to be hand made. It just means that
you cannot create hundreds of them for sale, just some (and not
neccesarily just one, you can create back-ups or spares) for your own
personal use. You can commission someone (a print shop, artist, etc)
to create a set/sets for you.
So can 2 people independently commision the same print shop to each
create a set just for their own personal use. Then a third persons,
etc....
My question to a copyright lawyer "Is there a distinction between an
entire product versus it's individual replacement parts?" and how
does a replacement slingshot plastic differ from a replacement ROM
chip? You are well within your rights under fair to aquire
replacement ROM chips (and possibly even spares) without having to
repay for the software, and people can sell the service of burning the
ROM for you (so long as you own the game). So can someone sell you
the service of printing the artwork on plastic for you (again on a
game that you own).
By using the ROM chip as analogy they are not selling the artwork
(which you already have rights to own by owning the machine), they are
selling the labor and raw materials to replace that piece in your
machine.
Here is a silly example, to show what I meant by asking about the
parts as oppose to an entire product. I have a liscensed shirt that
has artwork on the front but it also has artwork on the sleeve. A
sleeve gets ripped off and destroyed. Can someone reproduce the sleeve
as a replacement, without having to pay royalties? It's not a useful
product in it of itself, it's a replacement part.
What other hobby's/industries does this issue with artwork on parts
come up in? Probably Car Restoration. But in most of those instances
the issue is with using a Trademarked logo and not copyrighted art/
images.
Bay Area Amusements LLC
business ... same issue - Chrysler had rights to Emblems, Decals, etc and
very quickly shut down anyone without license. Replacement fenders were ok,
etc. And yes, there was always some bootlegging going on, which diminished
once each Car company (I was Chrysler) got wind, and then picked a couple of
bootleg suppliers to sue, which cost $5K+ to settle and ultimately went to a
licensing scheme. Same issue, not all parts needed were available (licensee
is not obligated to make anything other than what is under a warrantee
timeframe for replacement parts).
Best example to use: Gottlieb. Very strict licensing and review on parts,
not all parts available.
"kbliznick" <kbli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ebfd1c05-2339-401d...@k20g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Brian
> The question I have is if Dr. Dude is a 20 year old game. How long
> does the copyright last or does it have to be renewed like a patent.
> Secondly, if you made a set of plastics that are slightly different
> in artwork would that be enough to get around a copyright law. Just
> Curious...
>
> Brian
> Detroit Pinball
Copyrights use to require re-registration after 28 years, but that has
long been removed. Now, anything and everything that is created is
automatically granted a copyright of at least 70 years (even this
message).
In the US, copyright length for a corporation is 95 years. Don't get
your hopes up in 2080, because you can bet your paycheck that our
government will extend (aka screw up) copyright lengths again once
Mickey Mouse or other notable corporate-owned characters start
reaching the public domain again.
Making a derivative of the artwork won't make much of a difference,
unless it's used in satire or parody form. Just look at the artist who
made the famous Obama poster last year. He made a totally new piece of
artwork that was based on a photograph from the AP and there are now
suing claiming copyright infringement, even though the two share
nothing in common besides the Obama's pose and "look and feel".
Unfortunately, copyright laws will get much worse before they get
better as long as corporations own our "elected" leaders.
-- Brian
kbliznick
<r...@bayareaamusements.com> wrote:
> Cars are exactly the same situation, I used to run a Mopar parts restoration
> business ... same issue - Chrysler had rights to Emblems, Decals, etc and
> very quickly shut down anyone without license. Replacement fenders were ok,
> etc. And yes, there was always some bootlegging going on, which diminished
> once each Car company (I was Chrysler) got wind, and then picked a couple of
> bootleg suppliers to sue, which cost $5K+ to settle and ultimately went to a
> licensing scheme. Same issue, not all parts needed were available (licensee
> is not obligated to make anything other than what is under a warrantee
> timeframe for replacement parts).
OK I think I remember reading that somewhere, where car manufacturers
are required to make the parts to keep the car running for 15 years
after manufacture. Any parts they stop supplying after that are then
open for anyone to make, like the fenders you mentioned, but I
suppose they would have to manufacture those parts without any logos
or artwork, as the artwork is not a prequisite for a functioning part.
kbliznick
> suppose they would have to manufacture those parts without any logos
> or artwork, as the artwork is not a prequisite for a functioning part.
I guess that answers my own question about the difference between a
sling plastic and a ROM.
ROM is needed for game to still function.
Slingshot plastic is needed for a game to still function, but the
artwork on the plastic is not needed for it to function.
seymour.shabow
>
> My question to a copyright lawyer "Is there a distinction between an
> entire product versus it's individual replacement parts?" and how
> does a replacement slingshot plastic differ from a replacement ROM
> chip? You are well within your rights under fair to aquire
> replacement ROM chips (and possibly even spares) without having to
> repay for the software, and people can sell the service of burning the
> ROM for you (so long as you own the game). So can someone sell you
> the service of printing the artwork on plastic for you (again on a
> game that you own).
>
Just do what Wayne himself does (TAF translites) - you have to send the
parts back and they have to be destroyed before the new product can go
out. I'd say he's leading by example.
This doesn't help people that are missing plastics though.
-scott CARGPB#29
Brian
> I love the creative thinking earlier in this thread of buying the game
> then adding the plastics you created and then selling the game back.
> That fits under fair use.
If a company did this as part of their business model, I would bet
that a court would not see it that way.
> My question to a copyright lawyer "Is there a distinction between an
> entire product versus it's individual replacement parts?" and how
> does a replacement slingshot plastic differ from a replacement ROM
> chip? You are well within your rights under fair to aquire
> replacement ROM chips (and possibly even spares) without having to
> repay for the software, and people can sell the service of burning the
> ROM for you (so long as you own the game). So can someone sell you
> the service of printing the artwork on plastic for you (again on a
> game that you own).
IANAL, but I have a weird fetish of following the patent/copyright
problems that exist in today's world, so here is what I think :-)
Copyright does not cover the physical design of the slingshot plastic,
it's protecting the artwork that is on it. To the eyes of copyright,
artwork on a little piece of plastic is no different than artwork
hanging in some gallery.
This is why companies like Pinball inc can make ramps or other
companies can reproduce the fender to a Ford Mustang. However, they
cannot without permission create the artwork for those ramps.
The ROM Chip example is much more complicated. The chip itself is like
a car fender and could technically be reproduced by anyone (but I will
bet there are patent issues....!) but the software on those roms are
copyrighted. In fact, the copyright is much more strict than what you
have on artwork because it's something that is so easily duplicated.
The fact is, you *CANNOT* just get a copy of the ROM software because
you own the game. Why? Because the person you are getting them from
most likely doesn't have the right to distribute the software. The
fact that I once bought Windows XP doesn't give me the right to
download it from a file sharing site. Personally, under the eyes of
the law, I think ROM burning services would be considered illegal
unless the software owners released the software under a specific
license like Creative Commons.
> Here is a silly example, to show what I meant by asking about the
> parts as oppose to an entire product. I have a liscensed shirt that
> has artwork on the front but it also has artwork on the sleeve. A
> sleeve gets ripped off and destroyed. Can someone reproduce the sleeve
> as a replacement, without having to pay royalties? It's not a useful
> product in it of itself, it's a replacement part.
Nope, both are treated as separate pieces of artwork, even though they
be on the same "canvas" aka T-shirt.
> What other hobby's/industries does this issue with artwork on parts
> come up in? Probably Car Restoration. But in most of those instances
> the issue is with using a Trademarked logo and not copyrighted art/
> images.
Correct. Car companies can trademark the entire look of a car but
normal fabricated parts can be produced without license. I can
recreate the 1978 Trans Am Hood, but not the Eagle logo since it was
trademarked.
Honestly, it seems like almost every other industry that depends on
copyright are struggling with these issues. The internet has played a
huge part in this, since anything digital can be duplicated with no
effort -- i.e. Music use to be a "scarce good" because it was only
available on CD/tap/etc and now it's no longer a scarce good -- but
the music industry wants to treat it the same. Industries that don't
enforce a copyright, like fashion and food, flourish and force
designers to create new and better product (the ENTIRE POINT of
copyright!)
Wait until 3D printers improve (look it up, it's incredible stuff) and
we can duplicate physical objects as easy as we copy paper today.
Imagine taking a LOTR figure, laser scanning it and creating a new one
from a machine on your desktop all in a few minutes. People think the
Music and Movie industries are freaking out now....
-- Brian
miracleman
> Just do what Wayne himself does (TAF translites) - you have to send the
> parts back and they have to be destroyed before the new product can go
> out. I'd say he's leading by example.
I'd like to see pics/video of WayNO destroying the original
translites.
I'm sure some resellers of used pins would re-use the translite in
another game, but I'm sure WayNO would never do that.
1st
wrote:
> It's the "you people" thing that bothers me about Wayne. But that's
> not why I write...
Well said, well said indeed.
Not rich either but have quite a lot of contact with people in the
well over 1M club
that don't come off as asshats like Wayno. And some DID have a silver
spoon....
1st
Hans
>
> -- Brian
Brian;
Actually, the ROM files are the one and only area that I am aware of
that you CAN acquire, as Williams has made them available for
download. Wayne even has them as free downloads from his website.
However there are limitations on use, and you're basically only
permitted to burn the chips for your own machine, or if fixing
somebody elses. But you can't sell burned chips nor publish it
anywhere. It's just a shame they haven't been as benevolant with other
essentially abandoned titles.
I would love to actually get in contact with somebody at WMS to find
out what kind of licensing agreements they will approve, as I'd love
to make some revisions to a couple titles and sell the ROM's, but only
if I can do it legit.
-Hans
Dylan
Wayne:
"There are Suppliers who we have contracts with who produce parts for
old games.
Contact Classic Playfield Reproductions to see if they have plans on
Making them
It is a Business that turns over 10 Million a Year, Not a Hobby for
US.
As I said i have no problems you making a set of plastics for
yourself, But this is where you become a prick, because you want to
offer or sell and make money on artwork you don't own to recover your
costs.
There are many products we make and don't recover our costs why should
you?
BLA BLA BLA Boycott don't buy whatever, heard it all before as we are
packing a 100k of parts headed to Distributors.
Grow up
Keep it up and you won't even be able to get a manual or a rom for
your game without paying."
Wayne Gillard
The Pinball Factory
Tony @ GLM
> Heres another one from last night:
>
> Wayne:
> US.
Now THAT's funny!
Might want to ask him _which_ business. It ain't pinball.
Tony
www.greatlakesmodular.com - Re-Engineered Pinball Parts
GMS1975
What is the time frame on seeing those?
brainsnap
> Whatever happened to the Medieval Madness and Cactus Canyon remakes?
> What is the time frame on seeing those?
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.
And to think - THIS is what started ALL Waynes problems !!!
kbliznick
> The fact is, you *CANNOT* just get a copy of the ROM software because
> you own the game. Why? Because the person you are getting them from
> most likely doesn't have the right to distribute the software. The
> fact that I once bought Windows XP doesn't give me the right to
> download it from a file sharing site. Personally, under the eyes of
> the law, I think ROM burning services would be considered illegal
> unless the software owners released the software under a specific
> license like Creative Commons.
> -- Brian
Not arguing that the ROM software isn't copyrighted, but owning the
game gives you a right to copy it :) or purchase copies of it.
Also you can personally supply a ROM burning service with a softcopy
of the ROM file
This also comes up with the music and file sharing. I can legally
download for free any song that I already own in my cd/album/music
collection (it has to be the same version and same mastering before
someone chimes in about remastered copies).
kbliznick
> Actually, the ROM files are the one and only area that I am aware of
> that you CAN acquire, as Williams has made them available for
> download. Wayne even has them as free downloads from his website.
HIS website is really the old Williams Pinball website
(www.pinball.com) which he aquired with the other stuff he got from
Williams.
faterikcartman
like to keep old pinball games alive, especially in their homes, but
at least now I think I get his point.
It appears that if we want parts for a particular game we'll have to
get the word out on CL, every vendor's website, Mr. Pinball etc., and
here, and start lists. If enough people want the part and will pay
for it, it sounds like Wayne will either make a run or sell a license
to whomever is willing to do it.
Knowing that, does anyone have enough time -- and patience -- on their
hands to get the ball rolling, contact people who can make licensed
parts, find out what it would cost, what Wayne will charge, etc.?
If we're willing to do the leg work, and pay for it, it sounds like
Wayne will play ball. Of course I wouldn't expect to be cuddled after
he treats us like his...
Ron Lyons
> On Jul 1, 12:32 pm, Brian Munn <bdm...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 12:27 pm, Brian Munn <bdm...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> > > > I have sent numerous requests in the past to wayne to make a dr dude
> > > > plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
> > > > taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
> > > > interest. His reply:
>
> > > > "You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
> > > > use.
>
> > > > This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
> > > > can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
> > > > costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
> > > > you and the Printer who made them.
>
> > > > It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
> > > > enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
> > > > tens of thousands.
>
> > > > Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
> > > > yourself to break the Law.
>
> > > > The plastics will be made in time. "
>
> > > > Wayne Gillard
> > > > The Pinball Factorywww.pinball.com
>
> > > does the copyright last or does it have to be renewed like a patent.
> > > Secondly, if you made a set of plastics that are slightly different
> > > in artwork would that be enough to get around a copyright law. Just
> > > Curious...
>
> > > Brian
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > does not work on it, how long before rights are considered abadoned?
> > Is there a difference between saying I am going to do something versus
> > actually doing something.
>
> > Brian
> > Detroit Pinball
>
> The abandonment stuff never got passed here in the USA that I'm aware
> of. On top of that, he IS actually doing something, even if it isn't
> making anything.
> The fact that he is still actively working to stop other people from
> using the artwork still counts as far as maintaining ownership is
> concerned.
>
> -Hans- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm pretty sure (and i'm sure we'll have people chime in that claim to
be copyright lawyers) that one of the tenants of owning a copyright is
that you HAVE to pursue cases against people that infringe upon it.
Wayne seems to take that part of it very seriously!
erickit
>
> - Show quoted text -
15% plus 15% of the product.
Happy meals ain't cheap in Oz.
Eric
Ron Lyons
> enforce a copyright, like fashion and food, flourish and force
> designers to create new and better product (the ENTIRE POINT of
> copyright!)
>
> -- Brian
Interesting Point.
Ron
kbliznick
>
> I'm pretty sure (and i'm sure we'll have people chime in that claim to
> be copyright lawyers) that one of the tenants of owning a copyright is
> that you HAVE to pursue cases against people that infringe upon it.
>
But he really hasn't in most cases and has no legal proof of that
enforcement. Most of what he has done is non-legally binding fake C&D
emails from fake law firms.
Deadly
between the lines) Wayne recommends that we all take our pins and
destroy them since they are out dated. And Wayne makes his money how?
C'mon Wayne stop being a baby and be the business man you claim you
are you freaking dumb dumb.
What's next? Are you going to wait for Stern to kick the bucket and
buy that out and end those as well? I don't know about you Wayne, but
if I had the money you claim you do I'd try to make the world a better
place not a worse one. You have the opportunity to die a legend but
I'm afraid your future falls nothing less than Dickens "Scrooge".
Guys and gals I have to believe Wayne is simply hurt from the verbal
assault he's been given over and over and over again simply because he
didn't follow through with his verbal commitment of new pins. If
someone was returned their down payment then by all means you have
every right to complain. For everyone else (including me) this rehash
is a mute point and quite honestly is just fueling the fire and needs
to stop. How many times does a person need to say Wayne failed? Damn I
just said it too didn't I? ;-)
kbliznick
> assault he's been given over and over and over again simply because he
> didn't follow through with his verbal commitment of new pins. If
> someone was returned their down payment then by all means you have
> every right to complain. For everyone else (including me) this rehash
> is a mute point and quite honestly is just fueling the fire and needs
> to stop. How many times does a person need to say Wayne failed? Damn I
> just said it too didn't I? ;-)
Agreed. Otherwise he is going to take his toys and go home like he did
with Balls of Steel.
Pappy Boyington
> Pass the torch, I am a Millionaire Businessman, everything is for sale
> for a price, however we have already declined all the piss poor offers
> which caused you to loose pinball to start with."
>
I have always believe it and now it's clear that Wayne isn't in this
to make money. He is in it to DESTROY THE PINBALL HOBBY. Even if it
means he will lose money doing it. He has a deep hatred for pinball
and all the people involved in it.
Rich Wiski
bwodie
> And Bwodie - U seemingly support his raving lunatic ?
> Surely not.
I just think we have done this so many times over the past half a
decade but people still ask him the same question and expect a
different response.
I dont understand why we have the same conversation over and over. Its
boring IMO
brainsnap
> Heres another one from last night:
>
> Wayne:
>
> It is a Business that turns over 10 Million a Year, Not a Hobby for
> US.
> Wayne Gillard
> The Pinball Factory
See people - THIS in itself just HAS to be utter bullshit.
I have worked in sales, logistics and distribution for over 28 years.
I work for one of Australia's leading retailers in thier highly
succesful wholesale divisions - our division turns over 200 million
PA.
One of our own departments within our company supplies LOADS of
products all over Australia from a Sydney base to promotional
companies
We turn over 10million ourselves within that one department.
We supply to MAJOR promotional companies like Mars , Tabcorp and
Wishlist Foundation.
We supply IN DEMAND and exciting products from 2010 like Ipod,
Camera's, Laptops and all AV gear ( not product , to use Waynes words,
that is outdated and doesnt belong in homes - in other words WAY WAY
less demand than the type of product that we supply )
The average sell price of an item for us is about $300.00 - whereas
Waynes average sell price is ( I imagine ) around $40.00
Our business requires 3 full time storeman, 3 sales staff and 3 sales
co-ordinators plus a delivery co-ordinator as well as a MASSIVE
warehouse.
Waynes business has basically NO staff and an EMPTY warehouse , and
that warehouse is about on 8th the size of what we run ( yes I have
seen his 'factory' )
So this maths alone would tell you there is NO WAY he is turning over
10 million in ( average of $30-50 ) parts.
KenH
> I have sent numerous requests in the past to wayne to make a dr dude
> plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
> taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
> interest. His reply:
>
> "You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
> use.
>
> This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
> can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
> costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
> you and the Printer who made them.
>
> It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
> enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
> tens of thousands.
>
> Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
> yourself to break the Law.
>
> The plastics will be made in time. "
>
> Wayne Gillard
> The Pinball Factorywww.pinball.com
There are 6000+ members on RGP. Only a complete douchbag-idiot would
piss off that many potential customers. That your 'precious pinball'
comment really ticks me off. That guys web site has been up for 5-10
years now. I remember seeing it when it first came up and thinking,
great, a pinball company that is going to make classic machines.
Right. I also remember thinking, I'll believe it when I see it. The
Pinball Factory my a$$.
Big12bus
> I have sent numerous requests in the past to wayne to make a dr dude
> plastics set, tonight I sent an email saying that I was considering
> taking it upon myself to make a set since no one else seemed to have
> interest. His reply:
>
> "You cant make them for anyone other than your own game under fair
> use.
>
> This is the problem, Make what you like for your own game but your
> can't give them away or supply them to others to recover any of your
> costs it is a Trademark & Copyright Infringement and we will go after
> you and the Printer who made them.
>
> It is not up to you to decide, I am so sick of you people and I will
> enforce the rights, you will pay our Legal fees and damages in the
> tens of thousands.
>
> Live with the 20 year old game the way it is, don't take it upon
> yourself to break the Law.
>
> The plastics will be made in time. "
>
> Wayne Gillard
> The Pinball Factorywww.pinball.com
Thank god I am not into the newer DMD games with this crap going on.
He is such a loser... He will never figure it out and the good news.
KARMA baby !!!!!...............
Some day will be his DAY...
Bill
Pinball Jimmy
wouldn't have to pay his legal bills. Very rare cases where plaintiff
never had a claim can you ask for your legal fees. It's called
sanctions here in ohio(ref to Ohio RC 2323.51). He knows it and is
hoping you don't! What are his damages? He would be required to prove
damages. NOT legal fees. He's just out the legal fees to defend what
is his property that's what sucks about the US system. That's why he
is so agressive about the issue. Junk Yard dog bark but the dog is 6"
tall!!! He would be required to show proof of said damages and that he
hold copyright. Here lies his major problem!! What about Gene's rights
to said property????? He banks on the general masses not knowing shit
about the law. End of story. Go make your plastics. Best thing to do
is leave ZERO trail. Go to pinball Bottom line is it's a lose
situation all around. No one going to enforce copyright on a plastic
set. Why it will cost to mcuh $$$! Don't lose any sleep. He'd need a
legal team in the state where damages occured. He doesn't have
that!!! E
Expat
Whoa there,don't give someone advice that will get them in trouble.
I think you'll find that Williams Gaming will have no problem tying up
people in court defending THEIR IP
Wayne/TPF is just a licensee
Didn't you see the mega thread a few weeks a go where someone here
"wagged the dog"
a bit too much and got a nice friendly "cease and desist" from WMS
lawyers
MrBally
So what happens if you download a slightly different version such as
the "live" version of a song you only have the original album version
on a CD? Does someone check the ipod in your car to verify it only has
the original version? WTF?
Pinball Jimmy
to use any capital resources to defend copyright on plastics or any
other product that is revenue negitive. It's doesn't matter if they
have 100 firms standing by. It still takes CASH! Send all the letters
you want. Wayne knows it's all a wild claim and he has not legal
grounds to take it any further. That's CHEAP! When did anyone file
suit? ????? Hum? Actions speak louder than words. Wayne, Gene or WMS
isn't going to drop tens of thousands in to a coourt case that they
might lose, any good counsel knows nothing 100%, refer to summary
judgements!! WMS could and would file, make motion for summary
judgement. They will NOT get legal fees reimbursed from defedant.
That's law not opinion. Not enough money involved to really matter.
Wayne and Gene could find out what they claim isn't found by law!
Happens all the time!!! They have more to lose than gain. Think about
it! I'd bet WMS gave IPB and pinball factory sole rights to produce.
What rights were sold? US, Japan and AUS rights?? If WMS really
controls said rights they might be the ones to actually inforce? Hence
the letters are a smoke screen. Some one should call WMS and ask about
the pinball rights. They'll talk. Here is the real kicker, I file suit
aginst Kruzman and it's unfounded, he can ask for all fees to be paid
by me and my counsel. Hum!! E
metallik
> isn't going to drop tens of thousands in to a coourt case that they
> might lose, any good counsel knows nothing 100%, refer to summary
Um... might wanna ask Mike Pacak about Gene filing silly
lawsuits... :) Now, whether he'll file ANOTHER one, that's the
question.
This debate really doesn't need to happen, either. Wayne is on the
other side of the planet, and certainly cannot physically stop anyone
here (in the US) from making reproduction parts. He can't stop people
from selling them either, via word of mouth or at shows or gatherings
of friends, or even Craigslist. The more he acts like an ass, the
more of such activities will occur and the greater chance of people
finding the stuff they need without buying anything from him.
metallik
> I am not a lawyer but I know enough about IP law to know that if you
> hold the rights to content and you refuse to defend those rights, you
> can lose them.
Good thing you're not a lawyer :) This is quite wrong WRT copyright.
See #5 in this list:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
..or do your own searches. Trademarks must be protected, but
trademarks are rarely an issue in these RGP discussions.
brainsnap
>
> - Show quoted text -
And ... ( cue the golden trumpets ) in rides Waynes White
Knight ...Expat.
Does the White Knight appear when 99% of the posts are indefensible
( as in the REAL truth that cant be defended ) - NO, he is NOWHERE to
be seen then.
I am seriously out of adjectives like pathetic etc to describe this on-
going and obsessive romance of Expats.
machine.slave
Once again, Expat, you totally missed the point of that thread
entirely. Getting the attention of WMS Gaming Inc. was exactly what I
wanted to do. It put me in contact with just the right people to
answer some questions that many of us had. It also clarified once and
for all what I (and hopefully others) can and cannot sell online.
Forgetting for the moment that several others are constantly,
BLATANTLY infringing on the very same trademarks that Wayne laid
claims against me with, which he continues to do nothing about (and
WMS has been informed of this), I have finally (after 2 years of
fighting with this douchenozzle) met the legal demands of the true IP
holder and they have allowed me to sell my items in peace.
I can see he's still up to no good however, flexing his flabby arms in
front of the very same people that have made him rich, treating us
like dogs.. and it continues to amaze how hard, how far someone is
willing to go to be the absolute most hated "human being" (using the
term loosely here) in such a niche hobbyist market. So again, I
congratulate you, sir. I believe there's a picture of you polishing
your award floating around on the internet somewhere.
Perhaps we should take up a petition for WMS Gaming Inc. to revoke
their licenses.. once they're made privy to how this man's ethics - or
lack thereof - continue to tarnish their once golden name, maybe
they'll finally listen.
Now excuse me while I pop some popcorn.
chuck
I don't know what I'm talking about but I do know... I always get a
kick out of this.
barakandl
thumbs up here. Wayne is hurting the hobby. I made some nice new
decals (kill yagov and lock) for my f-14 with your artwork. Thanks
machine.slave and f wayne. Why is gripes about artwork used in games
made 20 years ago is beyond me.
cody chunn
--
-cody
--
"Big12bus" <w-mor...@ti.com> wrote in message
news:cf5e6ae7-7239-4de8...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
--
-cody
--
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i0rcvk$dk4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
erickit
> Hmm, that didn't work like I had hoped...
>
> --
> -cody
Story of Wayne in a nutshell, when he first bought the rights everyone
thought it was a great thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj10EzNKA2M
Eric
brainsnap
> *sigh*
>
> Once again, Expat, you totally missed the point of that thread
> entirely. Getting the attention of WMS Gaming Inc. was exactly what I
> wanted to do.
>
> Perhaps we should take up a petition for WMS Gaming Inc. to revoke
> their licenses.. once they're made privy to how this man's ethics - or
> lack thereof - continue to tarnish their once golden name, maybe
> they'll finally listen.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Expat misses EVERY point except the brown one in the middle of a
certain persons butt-hole.
And if a petition is started I will be 2nd after Machine Slave to be
on it.
Who else guys – come on !
Expat
Umm I think the "romance" as you call it is comin' from yer end !
I'm just trying to tell the guy that WMS will sue.
They've got lawyers on retainer and they won't mess around
Anyone giving advice to the contrary is seriously mis-leading someone
Nice to see that tiny war is still goin' in yer head
Might wanna see a shrink 'bout that
Expat
LOL!
Reading your petty disassembling rants is tiring
Ya might wanna get a life while popping that corn!
Later loser!
brainsnap
>
> - Show quoted text -
You have got nothing Expat
Nothing left mate.
mechanicmike2000
brainsnap
> http://groups.google.com/group/aus.politics/browse_thread/thread/b557...http://groups.google.com/group/biz.marketplace.investors/browse_threa...
> a couple of interesting threads from way back
Oh - thanks Mike , you just made my night.
They are absolutely hilarious in hindsight - especially when U think
of the oft repeated quote - " I am a millionare businessman ".
How funny - I am a millionare businessman ( who inherited some money ,
gouged the Australian taxpayer for free funds that went no-where AND I
am now famous Worldwide for the MM deposit debarcle and cant even
update my website )
Yeah - GREAT 'businessman' we have here people.
I wonder if he ever went back onto the Biz.Marketplace.Investors
Google group to tell of his mighty success?
And was he also calling people idiots in the tax grab group - talk
about laugh !!!!
Oh Expat - where are you mate - this is YOUR best bud still being
discussed - come on defend him and hurry man, get your sword out and
defend away - LOL
brainsnap
entertainment.
mechanicmike2000
> People - U must go see Mikes links at post 58 for some nostalgia and
> entertainment.
i thought someone might get a kick out of his posts
MrBally
> http://groups.google.com/group/aus.politics/browse_thread/thread/b557...http://groups.google.com/group/biz.marketplace.investors/browse_threa...
I forwarded the 2nd one to Warren at Berkshire Hathaway.
Scott Fitz
>
> - Show quoted text -
Don`t think Expat has any loyalty to Australians! I`m an Aussie and
he still owes me a Taxi playfield from 4 years ago.