How about moving to the new google groups with more functionality?

[Michael]

As you already know Google will eventually move this group to the "new google groups" but will still remain a text only functionality contrary to the full functionality of the new Google groups.

Why don't we create a totally new group in the new Google groups called say RGB2 and continue from there?
Positions can be posted as images copied from your computer.
I can create a portable executable that would copy images from your XG or GNUbg at your own predefined screen coordinates (have to be saved only once)
I already created a new group called "testing" to demonstrate how we can use it.
Please have a look and comment.

https://groups.google.com/g/testingxy/c/S1xQi2sneJQ

[Bradley K. Sherman]

One vote against. (As I only lurk these days, that
should probably count for .5 votes.) This is one
of the highest signal/noise discussion groups, ever.

--bks

[Peter]

Michael wrote:
> As you already know Google will eventually move this group to the "new google groups" but will still remain a text only functionality contrary to the full functionality of the new Google groups.
>
> Why don't we create a totally new group in the new Google groups called say RGB2 and continue from there?

Or shun Google completely. It is, after all, rather an obnoxious
company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google#Criticism_and_controversy

[Michael]

Understandable for a faithful lover of prehistoric Usenet
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.backgammon/qX0hhOhODTk/KcTWy-PEKQAJ

[Tim Chow]

On Sunday, August 23, 2020 at 9:20:47 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> Please have a look and comment.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/testingxy/c/S1xQi2sneJQ

I joined but don't seem to be able to post anything.

---
Tim Chow

[Michael]

indeed, you and Simon did join.
I turned you into an owner, please check the settings, I think they are all OK and everyone can post.
This is experimental anyway, we are going to delete it and create a new one if enough members wish to do so.
I think you deserve to be the owner of the new one anyway.
I will provide the excecutables to post images of positions.

[Tim Chow]

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> I turned you into an owner, please check the settings,
> I think they are all OK and everyone can post.

Thanks...now I am able to post, but I'm not sure how to post
a rollout result from XG.

Bradley, can you please explain why you vote against creating
a new group?

---
Tim Chow

[Bradley K. Sherman]

I'm afraid this one will disappear.

--bks

[Michael]

Same way you post it here.
Do the rollout and then press file/export/position to clipboard.
Then paste it via (CRL+V) over there.

[Tim Chow]

On Tuesday, August 25, 2020 at 6:31:25 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 25, 2020 at 3:32:26 AM UTC+3, Tim Chow wrote:
> > On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 6:23:05 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> > > I turned you into an owner, please check the settings,
> > > I think they are all OK and everyone can post.
> >
> > Thanks...now I am able to post, but I'm not sure how to post
> > a rollout result from XG.

[...]

> Same way you post it here.
> Do the rollout and then press file/export/position to clipboard.
> Then paste it via (CRL+V) over there.

Sorry, what I meant was how to post a *graphical* rollout result.
That would seem to me to be the main advantage of switching over.
If it's just going to be text-based then why bother switching?

---
Tim Chow

[Michael]

On Thursday, August 27, 2020 at 11:53:11 PM UTC+3, Tim Chow wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, what I meant was how to post a *graphical* rollout result.
> That would seem to me to be the main advantage of switching over.
> If it's just going to be text-based then why bother switching?
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

The rollouts can be easily understood in plain text.
The problem we have here is imo the X-O diagrams of the position.It's not only a problem for current users but for potential new members as well.
When someone visits the group and understands nothing of the position, he then can't understand anything of what we are talking about and chances are he will never come back.

[Tim Chow]

On Thursday, August 27, 2020 at 6:08:57 PM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> The problem we have here is imo the X-O diagrams of the position.

All right, let me try once again to ask my question.

I don't know how to post a graphical representation of a backgammon board.
BGOnline accepts raw HTML. I know how to copy and paste raw HTML from
XG and paste it into BGO to get a graphical representation of a backgammon
board. But when I tried the same thing here, the board did not show up.
It was set up to take rich text format or something, not raw HTML, and I
couldn't see how to switch to raw HTML.

---
Tim Chow

[Bud Spencer]

If someones mental capasity cannot figure out ASCII representations ...
how would they be able to fathom any of the problems anyway?

Graphics add absolutely nothing to this.

This is just stupid. If someone want's to go and "g00gl3 everything" it's
not my problem.

Usenet is very suitable for this.

Content is easy to consume and clear without any
bling.glitter.swag.whatnot!

Thank you very much!

/
Bud
/

a1=S0
b1=[1..2,'L0L']
a2=2*a1
a3=S1.4#b1
a4=(a2,a3)
a5=64*a4

[Michael]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 2:17:28 PM UTC+3, Bud Spencer wrote:
> If someones mental capasity cannot figure out ASCII representations ...
> how would they be able to fathom any of the problems anyway?

> Bud


Aha! So in other words myself, Stick, and possibly the majority of current users who don't have the mental capacity to figure out ASCII representations, would not be able to fathom any of the problems anyway.

Reality proved you wrong anyway.
Thank you very much!

[Michael]

The new groups is an Html site that got stripped of anything Google doesn't like.Both Simon and myself already noticed that
So you are right we can't post raw hlml, but we can still post images with drag-and-drop from our computer which is actually easier.
I said I will provide the excecutables to make these images both from XG and GNU with just one click.
The same way you learned how to do it at BGO, you will -much easier and faster- learn how to do it with the new group.


The merits:
a)Graphical view of position with no ID (which proved to be the major source of "cheating"). The ID will be posted with the rollout later.
b) X-O diagrams are not understandable to the majority of potential new members or current users, and it's perhaps the major reason this group suffers from near death participation.
c)The Google groups provide the option for "sticky" threads that always appear on top and usually contain instructions to new members. (***)
d)Today Google dominates not only the internet. but also all Android cell phones, so imagine the advantages of been in Gougle groups compared to say any other independent blog.

NB. It's important that YOURSELF agrees to move to the new group at least for a couple of weeks. Because if you won't nobody else will.
Also if you won't, then what motive would I have to spend my time doing the excecutables and setting up the new group?
.

(***) The New Google Groups miss some of the advanced features of the currently "Classic Groups" as for example the "Sticky" threads, the "Announcements" "Locked discussions" etc
R.g.b. is in the classic group but stripped of everything other than text because it was imported from usenet..
So most propably the new group has to be created in the Classic Groups.

[Peter]

Michael wrote:

I know it's none of my business, but -

> b) X-O diagrams are not understandable to the majority of potential
> new members or current users, and it's perhaps the major reason this
> group suffers from near death participation.

if someone as thick as I am can understand the ascii art diagrams then
surely everyone can understand them, and

> d)Today Google dominates not only the internet.

that is a reason to shun it.

[Paul Epstein]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 2:25:07 PM UTC+1, Peter wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> I know it's none of my business, but -
>
> > b) X-O diagrams are not understandable to the majority of potential
> > new members or current users, and it's perhaps the major reason this
> > group suffers from near death participation.
>
> if someone as thick as I am can understand the ascii art diagrams then

> surely everyone can understand them, and...

I thought you were a mega-genius with a substantial understanding of
graduate-level mathematics.
You understood the proof of one of Tim's results that was utterly beyond me.

Paul

[Peter]

Paul Epstein wrote:
> On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 2:25:07 PM UTC+1, Peter wrote:
>> Michael wrote:
>>
>> I know it's none of my business, but -
>>
>>> b) X-O diagrams are not understandable to the majority of potential
>>> new members or current users, and it's perhaps the major reason this
>>> group suffers from near death participation.
>>
>> if someone as thick as I am can understand the ascii art diagrams then
>> surely everyone can understand them, and...
>
> I thought you were a mega-genius with a substantial understanding of
> graduate-level mathematics.

I have a little mathematical knowledge.

> You understood the proof of one of Tim's results that was utterly beyond me.

Remind me of what that was.

>
> Paul
>

[Michael]

To be honest I knew about this forum nearly 5 years before I joined.
I simply wouldn't understand the diagrams so I was simply reading some of the comments. I joined only when I discovered how to copy the diagrams in Wordpad and then set the position on a real Backammon board. Even today I cannot really comprehend the position unless I look at it on a bot or at one of the 2 alternative sites
http://www.bglog.org/rgbnews.html
http://www.mindgamescenter.com/#!bgdiagram:
It's a matter of visual ability I guess

But why it's none of your business??
If we move from here then we will all move sooner or later.

[bananab...@gmail.com]

You caught me. I cannot figure out ASCII representations ... but I can spell capacity so at least I have that going for me.

Stick

[Bud Spencer]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2020, Michael wrote:

> Aha! So in other words myself, Stick, and possibly the majority of current users who don't have the mental capacity to figure out ASCII representations, would not be able to fathom any of the problems anyway.

Thouchy aren't we?

You are free to bow down to the all mighty big-g and make your dream true.

Talking about stick-person ... One has to stick with what one know when
have no valid arguments nor kapasiti to fathom ....

You go play in your own playground with fancy graphics and shieet!

Rest of us are just fine here, thank you very much.

[Michael]

for all those geniuses who think we are mentally handicapped here's what we see when we look at it either from a computer browser ot from a mobile phone.

https://groups.google.com/g/testingxy/c/DINbHq384oQ/m/DoeKmANXCgAJ

And that's what almost all the visitors and potential new members see and run away from here the fastest possible.
Mind you some joined and asked for instructions how to view the position...
How many of them stayed???

[Michael]

So Bud, why don't you tell us how many positions did you fathom so far, and provided your verdict?
Let me guess: NONE :-)

[Bud Spencer]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020, Michael wrote:

> for all those geniuses who think we are mentally handicapped here's what we see when we look at it either from a computer browser ot from a mobile phone.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/testingxy/c/DINbHq384oQ/m/DoeKmANXCgAJ

Did not check, since it's some big-g B$ ...

> And that's what almost all the visitors and potential new members see and run away from here the fastest possible.
> Mind you some joined and asked for instructions how to view the position...
> How many of them stayed???

If you are using wrong things to do right thing, you never get it right.
Your argument is like saying "I want to drive on the right side of the
rpad! I don't want to do it the correct way and drive on the left, like
everyone else is!"

[Bud Spencer]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020, Michael wrote:

> So Bud, why don't you tell us how many positions did you fathom so far, and provided your verdict?
> Let me guess: NONE :-)

What's your point?

Man up and stop whining. You can think all this as a educational way to
better your game via improving your mental aspect called "imagination" ...
it will help you in the long run ... But if you want to whine like a
soyboy, it's completely your choice.

[Michael]

I am not whining and I don't like your insulting tone.

[Bradley K. Sherman]

Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>for all those geniuses who think we are mentally handicapped here's what
>we see when we look at it either from a computer browser ot from a
>mobile phone.
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/testingxy/c/DINbHq384oQ/m/DoeKmANXCgAJ

> ...

In "classic google groups" If you're viewing it
in a browser, you'll find a drop-down menu on
the right. Select "show original" and you'll
get a fixed-width font.

--bks

[Peter]

I am persona non grata.

[Tim Chow]

On Friday, August 28, 2020 at 8:28:29 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> NB. It's important that YOURSELF agrees to move to the new group at least
> for a couple of weeks. Because if you won't nobody else will.

Although they didn't express themselves very politely, those who pointed
out that creating something that exists only on Google makes it even more
vulnerable to Google's whims have persuaded me not to switch over.

I don't have anything against Google per se, but its track record with
Google Groups is abysmal.

---
Tim Chow

[Michael]

I know that! You can also set the browser's fonts to courier new 10, then change it back to normal to continue surfing elsewhere.

The problem does not really concern me. It's all about getting new active members. Tim is the ONLY one who keeps this one breating. Imagine a new forum where we could have 2-3 guys like Tim. The more the participation the higher the possibility for that.

Did you notice that Stick's forum is not working anymore? Yet not even one moved here. Not even Walt who was here before.
Is it because they are all giants at BGO? I don't think so, myself, Tim and Blue Dice were posting in both, so we have first hand experience.

NB.If you are concerned about this forum disapearing there are free programs with which you can back it up completely, and view it with any browser exactly as it appears today.

[Michael]

It was Peter! ;-)
No problem with that, but aren't you concerned that this group is also a Google's group?

[Bud Spencer]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020, Michael wrote:

> I am not whining and I don't like your insulting tone.

Deal with it.

[Bud Spencer]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020, Michael wrote:

> No problem with that, but aren't you concerned that this group is also a Google's group?

BiG-tackitall-suckallthelifefromtheinternet can mirror Usenet as much as
they want. It's not theirs even they serve it.

Usenet is for everyone everywhere and nobody can take that away as far
there is someone willing to run a server.

No problem what so ever. It's how it's always been and will always be.

[Bradley K. Sherman]

Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

>NB.If you are concerned about this forum disapearing there are free
>programs with which you can back it up completely, and view it with any
>browser exactly as it appears today.

I read this group almost every day because I read 10-20 groups
on USENET almost every day. I read USENET in an 80-column
terminal window because that's the way I've always done it and
that's the way it's supposed to be read. Even if I had only a
browser, I would use a virtual terminal inside the browser to
read USENET. (If you think reading the BG positions is hard,
try reading C code in a variable-width font.)

BTW, I missed the discussion of why Stick's site went south.
(Can someone provide a short summary?) I rarely went there
unless there was a link from this group. I don't like Web
2.0 forums because there's no way to know what you've already
read. Reading rgb in trn means that I only see new articles,
but, because it's threaded, I can back up to previously read
articles with a key press or two if I want to review them.

I completely understand that I'm a dinosaur and that this
is a parochial view. If you want you can lower the weight
of my vote from .5 to .1. But if you move you won't have
bks to kick around anymore.

--bks

[Peter]

What I post to is a Usenet newsgroup. It may be echoed by Google (spit)
but it isn't theirs.

[Tim Chow]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 9:45:56 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> No problem with that, but aren't you concerned that this group is also a
> Google's group?

It's not owned by Google. If Google drops rec.games.backgammon, the group
will still be available by other means. If we create a Google Group from
scratch, then if Google Groups ceases to exist, the group will also cease
to exist.

---
Tim Chow

[Tim Chow]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 10:14:02 AM UTC-4, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> BTW, I missed the discussion of why Stick's site went south.
> (Can someone provide a short summary?)

I don't know all the details, but a big part of it was that it was (and
still is) malfunctioning technically. If you go to the main URL, you get
an error message. It's still possible to get in if you know what URL to
use, but only die-hards are going to bother.

The other thing is that the content was drying up anyway. Most of the
content was what I would call "backgammon gossip." I think that migrated
to Facebook (I'm not on Facebook). Jason Lee was running an online match,
which was also popular, but I think he got busy with other things and
stopped that. Discussion of actual positions was a small fraction of the
traffic and consisted mostly of people trying to show off how low their
PR was, rather than engaging in any interesting analysis.

It wasn't just Stick's forum. I don't really follow the backgammon world
much but Kit Woolsey's forum died at some point. The Gammon Village magazine
is moribund; only Jake Jacobs still posts an occasional fresh article. Maybe
the USGBF and Facebook are still vibrant---I'm not members of either one.

---
Tim Chow

[Michael]

I have my doubts about that since the original Usenet ceased to exist in 2010.
If you notice the "first post" in this group appears to be in 1991

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.backgammon/eWJ2HGbCIJA/KuzmTFhW4tkJ

However if you read the content it doesn't seem to be the usual type of first post, both from the content and that they were already 3 users who responded within 24 hours.
So it seems Google took over whatever content the original usenet news admin did not let expire/deleted and was still available on other servers.

It looks to me that all so called "usenet" servers today (in quotation marks because they are not the original usenet, but servers using the same Network News Transfer Protocol) have an admin who lets content to expire after some time.

So how can we be sure that [ If Google drops rec.games.backgammon, the group
will still be available by other means.}. What other means?? Can you currently access the group in any other way?

[Michael]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 5:14:02 PM UTC+3, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I read this group almost every day because I read 10-20 groups
> on USENET almost every day. I read USENET in an 80-column
> terminal window because that's the way I've always done it and
> that's the way it's supposed to be read. Even if I had only a
> browser, I would use a virtual terminal inside the browser to
> read USENET. (If you think reading the BG positions is hard,
> try reading C code in a variable-width font.)

The fact is that you are not reading from the original Usenet, but from some network of servers that use the same protocol.

> read. Reading rgb in trn means that I only see new articles,
> but, because it's threaded, I can back up to previously read
> articles with a key press or two if I want to review them.

Very interesting! Can you check what's the oldest post you have on your computer from rec.games.backgammon? This will solve a lot of queries.

>
> I completely understand that I'm a dinosaur and that this
> is a parochial view. If you want you can lower the weight
> of my vote from .5 to .1. But if you move you won't have
> bks to kick around anymore.

Don't worry, I usually avoid to judge people by any cliches.

[Michael]

Another thing worth mentioning:
I am absolutely certain that I 've seen spam advertisments in this group.
What surprised me though is that they were deleted after a few days.
Who deleted them, when there is no group Admin???
And how can we be sure that Google doesn't own this group?? Just wndering...

[Michael]

Do you post by email? If yes please give us the email address you are posting to. If not by email but through some news reader give us more details please.

[Michael]

Don't bother Peter.
Your via www.aioe.org posts go almost immediately to Google so called "usenet" NNTP server ===> nntp.google.com.

[Michael]

Hmmm... just like what I suspected.
aioe only saves 6 months "usenet" data

https://news.aioe.org/tools/statistics-about-groups/index.php?id=statistics-about-groups&group=rec.games.backgammon

[Peter]

I use Seamonkey (v. 2.49.5) which combines web browser, e-mail client
and news reader. I don't use the e-mail client. The only (or main if
not only) reason I use Seamonkey is that I came to the internet
(including Usenet) using Netscape and when that no longer kept up with
the seemingly endless stream of OSs that Microsoft produces, I changed
to the program that was most like Netscape. Why Netscape? Because I
had got used to it at work long before I had a connection to an ISP at
home.

The news server I use is aioe (https://news.aioe.org/). No doubt it
stand for something, but I don't know what. Before that I used Albasani
but that no longer operates. Before that I used my ISP's news server
but they (British Telecom) stopped providing a link to Usenet.

I have on a few occasions used Thunderbird (v. 68.8.1) which is another
Netscape-like all-in-one program.

The people here who use Google seem to use it competently, but there are
Usenet newsgroups where Google groups user equals steaming idiot.

[Peter]

And they go almost immediately to all Usenet nodes that carry whatever
group (rgb or other) that I'm posting to. Google may peer with such
Usenet servers as it wishes, but it's nothing to do with me or aioe.

[Peter]

Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 5:56:52 PM UTC+3, Tim Chow wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 9:45:56 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
>>> No problem with that, but aren't you concerned that this group is also a
>>> Google's group?
>>
>> It's not owned by Google. If Google drops rec.games.backgammon, the group
>> will still be available by other means. If we create a Google Group from
>> scratch, then if Google Groups ceases to exist, the group will also cease
>> to exist.
>>
>> ---
>> Tim Chow
>
> I have my doubts about that since the original Usenet ceased to exist in 2010.

Why do you say that? Microsoft stopped running its Usenet servers in
that year, and maybe other companies did too. But it still exists, most
especially the so-called big eight still exist, of which rec.* is one.

[Michael]

Yes you are right on that, I learned it from the internet after posting. It will continue to exist but it will only be available to users of "usenet". Most NNTP servers delete old data, so it remains to be seen to how old of data you will have access to.(e.g aioe deletes everything of more than 6 months old)

On the other hand Google reminds us every day that this group WILL be transfered to the new Google groups. Do you see any problem with users of NNTP servers ("usenet") participating or receiving information from the new Google groups?
I do!

[Peter]

Michael wrote:


> On the other hand Google reminds us every day that this group WILL be
> transfered to the new Google groups.

I wouldn't express it like that. (I know nothing about Google, but...)
It may be that Google will move its copy of rec.games.backgammon from
Google groups to new Google groups. Meanwhile all the many news servers
around the world which carry rec.games.backgammon will continue to do so.

Here's an analogy: if the Timbuktu public library throws its copy of
Evelyn Waugh's /Decline and Fall/ into the dustbin, that will have no
effect on other public libraries which, if they have a copy of that book
now, will surely still have a copy of it after the Timbuktu public
library has binned theirs.

> Do you see any problem with
> users of NNTP servers ("usenet") participating or receiving
> information from the new Google groups? I do!

Why?

But if there is a danger of posts being made to new Google groups not
being propagated to Usenet servers, isn't that a reason for not making
posts to new Google groups?

[bananab...@gmail.com]

BGO still works for me =P

Stick

[bananab...@gmail.com]

> I don't like Web
2.0 forums because there's no way to know what you've already
read.

> --bks

Are you saying that there was no way of knowing on my forums what you've already read?

Stick

[Michael]

On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 10:39:14 PM UTC+3, Peter wrote:


> But if there is a danger of posts being made to new Google groups not
> being propagated to Usenet servers, isn't that a reason for not making
> posts to new Google groups?

I am almost certain it won't be propagated and this will split current users in two. One of the 2 divisions will eventually die, but personally I will not belong to that ;-)

[Simon Woodhead]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 5:12:36 AM UTC+10, Michael wrote:

> On the other hand Google reminds us every day that this group WILL be transfered to the new Google groups. Do you see any problem with users of NNTP servers ("usenet") participating or receiving information from the new Google groups?
> I do!

There is no problem here. As Peter has pointed out, Google does not own usenet, which continues to function just fine. I access rgb without ever going near google or google groups. The "new" google groups is just the same thing with the html wrapping updated.

Some more history for you - usenet started when the internet was text-only, long before people figured out how to encode and compress images. Once images could be shared, the internet took off because suddenly everyone could exchange pron (which is what drove the growth of the net in the early days). This gave usenet a big problem because users didn't want those giant image files using up their precious dial-up bandwidth. So usenet implemented "text-only" news groups to solve the problem. Most usenet groups went straight to text-only and life returned to normal.

Google simply takes a usenet news feed (nntp) and wraps html around it. As I've shown with bglog.org/rgbnews, anyone can take a newsfeed and manipulate it however they like.

[Simon Woodhead]

I use thunderbird because it supports nntp, does all the threading etc. So news looks just like email to me. The news server I use (newsdemon.com) currently has 60834 rgb messages. The first is from July 1st 2003 and is part of a discussion initiated by Douglas Zare. There may be a usenet archive somewhere that goes back further.

[Michael]

Hi to Australia.
Sorry but I beg to differ. This is what Google does NOW in this classic Group.
If you see the page source you can spot all the people who posted via nntp (usenet).
Then switch to the New Group and inspect the very same page source. It is actually an import of the contents of the classic with absolutely no reference to any nntp.
Same with the new group "testing" that I created. You did post there via email.
Sure that can be done. However did you post anything via an nntp server-usenet??

[Simon Woodhead]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 8:31:58 AM UTC+10, Michael wrote:

> Hi to Australia.
> Sorry but I beg to differ. This is what Google does NOW in this classic Group.
> If you see the page source you can spot all the people who posted via nntp (usenet).
> Then switch to the New Group and inspect the very same page source. It is actually an import of the contents of the classic with absolutely no reference to any nntp.
> Same with the new group "testing" that I created. You did post there via email.
> Sure that can be done. However did you post anything via an nntp server-usenet??

Not sure I understand your point. When you post to rgb from google groups (as I am doing now), the post (almost) instantly appears in my non-google nntp thunderbird feed. Google interacts with usenet via nntp just like thunderbird and other newsreaders (there are heaps). Likewise, if I post via thunderbird the message finds its way (almost) instantly to Google groups, regardless of whether it is in New or Classic mode. IOW, GG conforms to the nntp protocol. Google strips and replaces various header information so that gg users post and reply via google. Google still interacts with usenet otherwise those of us outside of Google's little world would never see any posts.

[Bradley K. Sherman]

Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...

>Very interesting! Can you check what's the oldest post you have on your
>computer from rec.games.backgammon? This will solve a lot of queries.

> ...

I'm pretty sure panix (my ISP for USENET) ages out non-local
groups after one month. Local groups are kept forever.

--bks

[Bradley K. Sherman]

<bananab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't like Web
>2.0 forums because there's no way to know what you've already
>read.

> ...

>Are you saying that there was no way of knowing on my forums what you've
>already read?
>

Wasn't there often enough to remember. If there was
such a mechanism, bully for you. OTOH, if it required
a login to enable, that would be net negative, too.

--bks

[Bradley K. Sherman]

Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

>I have my doubts about that since the original Usenet ceased to exist in 2010.

> ...

Well some of the original servers shut down, but I think
that any network that uses nntp can be said to be part
of USENET.

--bks

[Peter]

Michael wrote:
> On Saturday, August 29, 2020 at 5:14:02 PM UTC+3, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
>> Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I read this group almost every day because I read 10-20 groups
>> on USENET almost every day. I read USENET in an 80-column
>> terminal window because that's the way I've always done it and
>> that's the way it's supposed to be read. Even if I had only a
>> browser, I would use a virtual terminal inside the browser to
>> read USENET. (If you think reading the BG positions is hard,
>> try reading C code in a variable-width font.)
>
> The fact is that you are not reading from the original Usenet, but from some network of servers that use the same protocol.

Usenet *is* a network of servers that use the same protocol, viz NNTP.

[Peter]

I (and many others) can read it and post to it without having a Google
account.

>

[Michael]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 1:53:37 AM UTC+3, Simon Woodhead wrote:
>
>
> Not sure I understand your point. When you post to rgb from google groups (as >I am doing now), the post (almost) instantly appears in my non-google nntp >thunderbird feed.

Let me reply line by line to make sure you understand my point.
Sure. That's because you set your thunderbird's newsreader to do so, via an nntp server
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/creating-newsgroup-account

>Google interacts with usenet via nntp just like thunderbird and other >newsreaders (there are heaps). Likewise, if I post via thunderbird the message >finds its way (almost) instantly to Google groups, regardless of whether it is >in New or Classic mode. IOW, GG conforms to the nntp protocol.

a) you don't know the depth Google's nntp server interacts with other nntp servers. It would be unrealistic to beleive that Google's nntp server, at any point in time has available more than say 1 year's messages from this group.
What you see using say Google Chrome to navigate this group is not what Google's nntp server has available. It's just a container interface that includes SMPT messages from emails, NNTP "usenet" messages, and messages posted from the browser.

Point is

b)The new Google groups (to where this group will eventually move) will also be a container interface, with the difference that it will not interact with nnpt servers.
You can verify that by creating a new Newsgroup reader account on your thunderbird, specifying mozilla as your nnpt server, and try posting messages to the "testingxy" group that I created. What you did so far is that you set "testingxy" in your Thunderbird's email account that uses an SMPT protocol, not an nntp.Therefore you are not posting there via usenet.

c)Users like Peter who send their messages via other newsreaders won't be able to send them to the New Google groups either.

>Google strips and replaces various header information so that gg users post >and reply via google. Google still interacts with usenet otherwise those of us >outside of Google's little world would never see any posts.

Like I said before, yes it does this now. It actually fetches messages into the Classic container interface from 3 different sources. NNTP servers "usenet", SMPT POP3 servers for emails, and online posting via browser. It currently keeps interaction between the classic and the new google group. When you post in this group via nntp server it goes straight to the classic, while at the same time the New group transfers content from the classic and vice versa. This will stop when the classic ceases.

[Michael]

Peter it will save us all a hell lot of time in typing and discussing if you try posting from your nntp server to the new group "testingxy" that I created.

[Simon Woodhead]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 8:21:22 PM UTC+10, Michael wrote:

> b)The new Google groups (to where this group will eventually move) will also be a container interface, with the difference that it will not interact with nnpt servers.

And we're talking about this usenet newsgroup, which, as Peter and Brad have pointed out is a nntp service. Google and its groups can do what they like. If they don't support nntp in the future, it won't affect this group. nntp is a protocol; as long as there are servers that support it, it will remain alive and usable. Some of us old farts like that.

[Simon Woodhead]

But that's on google groups. It's not a usenet newsgroup, so it's not running over nntp, but smtp.

[Michael]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 1:37:38 PM UTC+3, Simon Woodhead wrote:

Testing. Typing from the "New"

[Michael]

That's what I was saying all along. It is a usenet newsgroup that Google put in a container inteface that accepts messages from 3 different sources:nntp, smpt, and browser.

After Google moves it to it's New groups those who participate via usenet will be allienated. You are right that the Recreation/Games/Backgammon usenet group will remain usuable as a totally different entity, and you have every right to be happy about it.

NB. When I told Peter "Do you see a problem with that? I do" I meant exactly this. That current members will split in 2 different directions.

[Michael]

Hmm... let me see which of the recent participants post via usenet.

a)Murat the greatest
b)BKS
c)Bud
d)Simon.
e)Peter

So who's left? Perhaps Tim, myself, Blue Dice, Stick, and possibly Paui.

[Simon Woodhead]

I get what you're saying. But I don't see why the current members, few that they are, will split in two. People will simply move to one of the myriad ways to access r.g.b. and cross google groups off the list of options.

[Michael]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 2:35:40 PM UTC+3, Simon Woodhead wrote:
>
>
> I get what you're saying. But I don't see why the current members, few that they are, will split in two. People will simply move to one of the myriad ways to access r.g.b. and cross google groups off the list of options.

You sound very optimistic. None of those who currently participate via browser, or email will cross google groups off the list of options. Mark my words.

[Peter]

You'll mean my nntp client.

> to the new group "testingxy"

Ok. How do I do that?

> that I created.
>

[Michael]

I wish I knew ;-)

[Michael]

Anyway Simon said it's impossible so I guess this is the end of this discussion.

[Bud Spencer]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2020, Michael wrote:

> Let me reply line by line to make sure you understand my point.

Nobody undestand your point. You have no point.


/
Bud
/

a1=S0
b1=[1..2,'L0L']
a2=2*a1
a3=S1.4#b1
a4=(a2,a3)
a5=64*a4

[Michael]

Neeext!

[Philippe Michel]

On 2020-08-29, Michael <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Another thing worth mentioning:
> I am absolutely certain that I 've seen spam advertisments in this group.
> What surprised me though is that they were deleted after a few days.
> Who deleted them, when there is no group Admin???

They probably were cancelled as decribed there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancelbot

[Philippe Michel]

I'm not very active but I read this group, and occasionally post, via
Usenet.

FWIW, I use slrn as client (not nearly as old-fashioned as BKS, but
close) and eternal-september.org as server. I used to use aioe.org,
mentionned elsewhere in this thread, but switched years ago during some
kind of outage at the latter.

[MK]

I wouldn't claim to be the greatest but your calling me that sure does
make me feel great. :)

You have been making quite an effort to not understand what people
have been trying to explain to you (an your ilk ;), in order to create a
problem that doesn't exist.

Let me recap, for the sake of the group, worthy comments/points
made by all, by adding a few words of my own here and there.

--- Usenet is not obsolete. In fact, there are recent comments on the
web that it may be on its way to making a come back.

--- If it matters to enough people, Usenet groups can be moderated
but historically the majority of users have always been against it for
the sake of true freedom of speech.

--- If it matters to enough people, Usenet groups can be made to
accept binaries (or you can hijack an existing binaries group, i.e.
post 'spam', for an occasional 'fair use').

--- There are various advantages to accessing Usenet groups using
other agents than Google's web interface. If you have to have web
based interface, most Usenet service providers offer their versions.

--- Google's Usenet archive is by far the most extensive, going back
40 years, but many paid Usenet service providers offer 12 years of
minimum retension for up to a mind boggling 125,000 groups.

--- Google is not archiving and providing access to it as a charity act.
And I doubt that Google will give up the direct or indirect profits from it.

--- The "nntp spam commercials" in Usenet groups is no worse than
"http non-spam commercials".

--- There is enough demand for paid Usenet service providers for a
number of them to be changing $5 to $25 per month with various
options. (Google must be making as much from it somehow).

--- Even though no provider offers more than 12 years of archive, I
would bet that more entities than Google had the entire 40 years of
Usenet stored somewhere.

--- If you are so concerned about losing access to Google archive,
you download the entire RGB and store it on your own hard drive.
A text message takes from 1000 (a few lines) to 5000 (lengty post)
bytes. If the average is about 2500, you can store 400,000 posts on
a 1Tb portable drive that cost less than $50 nowadays.

Whatever you guys think I missed, feel free to add...

Now, back to Michaels lists of people who would prefer nntp vs hhtp
access to usenet. I really would like to see the obsessive daily position
discussers to create a new New Google Groups group and take their
garbage there.

After that, this groups will be quieter but hopefully worth following more,
with future articles about Chow's experiment to compare his calculated
cubeful equities to alpha-zero cubeful equities for Hypest-Gammon and
then maybe even for Hyper-Gammon, about his "colleague"s attemts at
creating an AlphaZero bot for Hypest-Gammon or Hyper-Gammon (or
was it regular backgammon??), and about other such subjects...

And as you guys go, don't you look back. You won't miss a thing. I will
forward whatever posted here to your new New Google Groups group. :)

MK

[Michael]

On Monday, August 31, 2020 at 11:22:03 AM UTC+3, MK wrote:
>
>
> I wouldn't claim to be the greatest but your calling me that sure does
> make me feel great. :)

Why?? If I were to elaborate I would say you are the greatest (g in lower case) in posting never ending posts on repeatitive issues as e.g. bots cheating, sick gamblers, and all that. I am sure Tim and the rest of his "ilks" also consider you the greatest, but you have to ask them to elaborate to get the full picture.

[Michael]

I can't keep myself from reviving this topic:
This is the future, not a new google group not the existing prehestoric "usenet" group.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.backgammon/OJrj1btT1bg/1rKtwnEDCAAJ

Created just one year ago and it already has >2200 members. And the level is quite good even Neil Kazaross is a member.

[Peter]

The diagram is rubbish.

[Michael]

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 5:19:21 PM UTC+3, Peter wrote:
>
> >
>
> The diagram is rubbish.


In your opinion of course. In my opinion it is about hmmm let me count... 100 times better than the X-O diagrams that get distorted on a browser.

[Peter]

The X-O diagram there is distorted. If I copy and paste it to here then
I get

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O O |
| O | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| O | | X |
| O | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X X O |
| O X X X | | X O X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 131 O: 180 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 62

which is not distorted.

[Michael]

It's distored on my browser.
In any case you can always go there and propose them the X-O diagrams and see how far you can go.

[Peter]

Why are you viewing it in a browser? It's a Usenet post and should be
viewed using a news reader.

[Bud Spencer]

▒▒▒▒▒▄██████████▄▒▒▒▒▒
▒▒▒▄██████████████▄▒▒▒
▒▒██████████████████▒▒
▒▐███▀▀▀▀▀██▀▀▀▀▀███▌▒
▒███▒▒▌■▐▒▒▒▒▌■▐▒▒███▒
▒▐██▄▒▀▀▀▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▄██▌▒
▒▒▀████▒▄▄▒▒▄▄▒████▀▒▒
▒▒▐███▒▒▒▀▒▒▀▒▒▒███▌▒▒
▒▒███▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒███▒▒
▒▒▒██▒▒▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▒▒██▒▒▒
▒▒▒▐██▄▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▄██▌▒▒▒
▒▒▒▒▀████████████▀▒▒▒▒
"KREEGAH BUNDOLO!"

[Bud Spencer]

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020, Peter wrote:

> The X-O diagram there is distorted. If I copy and paste it to here then I
> get
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O O |
> | O | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | O | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X X O |
> | O X X X | | X O X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 131 O: 180 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 62
>
> which is not distorted.

Yes. Some readers doesn't respect spaces as they should. It's nothing to
do with USENET. It's just shitty coding of the reader or what ever someone
complaining is using.

Do things correctly, and there is no problems. Do things wrong, and there
is problems.

Simple as that.

[Bud Spencer]

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020, Michael wrote:

> It's distored on my browser.

I bet this is also distored in your browser, right?

__---__
_- _--______
__--( / \ )XXXXXXXXXXXXX_
--XXX( O O )XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-
/XXX( U ) XXXXXXX\
/XXXXX( )--_ XXXXXXXXXXX\
/XXXXX/ ( O ) XXXXXX \XXXXX\
XXXXX/ / XXXXXX \__ \XXXXX----
XXXXXX__/ XXXXXX \__---- -
---___ XXX__/ XXXXXX \__ ---
-- --__/ ___/\ XXXXXX / ___---=
-_ ___/ XXXXXX '--- XXXXXX
--\/XXX\ XXXXXX /XXXXX
\XXXXXXXXX /XXXXX/
\XXXXXX _/XXXXX/
\XXXXX--__/ __-- XXXX/
--XXXXXXX--------------- XXXXX--
\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-
--XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-
* * * * * who ya gonna call? * * * * *

It's not our problem if you do things wrong. You cannot expect us to do
things wrong if you are. Just learn to do things correct!

[Michael]

Where does it say it is a usenet post? Where in google groups does it say we should use a newsreader? And why should I use a newsreader when the content is on HTTP web?

[Peter]

rec.games.backgammon is a Usenet newsgroup

> Where in google groups does it say we should use a newsreader? And why should I use a newsreader when the content is on HTTP web?
>

You seem not to get that Google groups are Usenet groups with some html
wrapped round them.

[Michael]

SOME of Google Groups are imported Usenet Groups not all. Google Groups is a web interface currently accepting input from nntp, http, and web. The nntp input will soon be scrapped. THANK YOU GOOGLE and....goodbye Buuug.

[Michael]

Bug, someone left a message for you.
He's called Mule #17.
Use the right tools to respond e.g. A DOS machine and a 16 colour monitor.Black and white is also OK.


https://external-preview.redd.it/o0y0m8JIvBlmUT5uSb8DO_7NZbLDlg2bLTSiK-a0bbY.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=56bd8a5c16f3be7af0ca48fbb6c109de38131376

[Michael]

btw Peter I was talking for the Facebook group that BD refered to in his recent thread.
I am surprised you didn't get it.

[bananab...@gmail.com]

*distorted
*correctly

I won't bother with the awkwardness of the other sentences.

Stick

[Tim Chow]

On Sunday, August 30, 2020 at 6:21:22 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> Like I said before, yes it does this now. It actually fetches messages
> into the Classic container interface from 3 different sources. NNTP
> servers "usenet", SMPT POP3 servers for emails, and online posting via
> browser. It currently keeps interaction between the classic and the new
> google group. When you post in this group via nntp server it goes straight
> to the classic, while at the same time the New group transfers content
> from the classic and vice versa. This will stop when the classic ceases.

I didn't understand what you were saying before, but I think I understand now.

You're saying that when Google terminates classic Groups, rec.games.backgammon
will no longer exist as a Google Group? Or maybe it will, but that posts made
to the rec.games.backgammon Google Group won't propagate to the USENET group?

---
Tim Chow

[Bud Spencer]

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020, bananab...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 11:14:26 AM UTC-4, Bud Spencer wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2020, Michael wrote:
>>
>>> It's distored on my browser.
>>
>> I bet this is also distored in your browser, right?

> *distorted

When Michael seez "distored" it is "distored", mmmkay?

AwkW00rZ?!

[Bud Spencer]

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020, Tim Chow wrote:

> You're saying that when Google terminates classic Groups, rec.games.backgammon
> will no longer exist as a Google Group? Or maybe it will, but that posts made
> to the rec.games.backgammon Google Group won't propagate to the USENET group?

Maybe something like that. I see no problem with that. Those who want
assimilate to big-G-BORG can do so. Rest of us are just fine without it
and can carry on like we always have.

[Peter]

Michael wrote:


> SOME of Google Groups are imported Usenet Groups not all. Google
> Groups is a web interface currently accepting input from nntp, http,
> and web. The nntp input will soon be scrapped.

That is an excellent reason for not using Google groups.

[Michael]

The latter.

[Michael]

So.... bye bye Bug and Peter.
See you on another planet where everything will be like this -->

.,,cccd$$$$$$$$$$$ccc,
,cc$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$cc,
,d$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"J$$$$$$$$$$$$$$c,
d$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$,$" ,,`?$$$$$$$$$$$$L
,$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$',J$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$b
,$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$i `$h
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$P' "$$$$$$$$$$$h $$
;$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F,$$$h,?$$$$$$$$$$h$F
`$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F:??$$$:)$$$$P",. $$F
?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$( `$$ J$$F"d$$F,$F
?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$h, :P'J$$F ,$F,$"
?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ccd$$`$h, ",d$
"$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$",cdc $$$$"
,uu, `?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$c$$$$h
.,d$$$$$$$cc, `$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$??$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$,
,d$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$bcccc,,??$$$$$$ccf `"??$$$$??$$$$$$$
d$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$h`?$$$$$$h`:... d$$$$$$$$P
d$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$`$$$$$$$hc,,cd$$$$$$$$P"
=$$?$$$$$$$$P' ?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$;$$$$$$$$$???????",,
=$$$$$$F `"?????$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$bc
d$$F"?$$k ,ccc$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$i
. ,ccc$$c`""u$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$P",$$$$$$$$$$$$h
,d$$$L J$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$" `""$$$??$$$$$$$
,d$$$$$$c,"$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F `?J$$$$$$$'
,$$$$$$$$$$h`$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F ?$$$$$$$P""=,
,$$$F?$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F 3$$$$II"?$h,
$$$$$`$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$P" ;$$$??$$$,"?"
$$$$F ?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$P",z' 3$$h ?$F
`?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$??$$$$$$$$$PF"',d$P" "?$F
""""""" ,z$$$$$$$$$$$$$P
J$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F
,$$$$$$$$$$$$$$F
:$$$$$c?$$$$PF'
`$$$$$$$P
`?$$$$F