On MTBs with drop bars

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I see a new fad coming....

https://velo.outsideonline.com/gravel/gravel-racing/best-bike-leadville-trail-100-mtb/

[Lou Holtman]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 3:51:13 PM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I see a new fad coming....
>
> https://velo.outsideonline.com/gravel/gravel-racing/best-bike-leadville-trail-100-mtb/

Straight bars gives me numb hands within couple of minute, so this is good. It was oneof the reason I switch to a cross bike for off road.

Lou, oh WC TT is on.

[Roger Meriman]

funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I see a new fad coming....
>
> https://velo.outsideonline.com/gravel/gravel-racing/best-bike-leadville-trail-100-mtb/
>

While it’s always fun to see monster cross bikes, I’m not convinced that
there isn’t a Gravel bike out there that would do better, ie 50 something
mm plus suspension fork though much less capable ie 30/40mm rather than
100/120mm for a XC MTB.

Or 60mm/2.3 MTB tires aero gravel bikes such as 3T bikes which folks have
ridden down Yr Wyddfa/Snowdon which is a rocky technical trail.

And I don’t see how a MTB even a XC race one will be more aero than a burly
Gravel bike I’m unconvinced that this is a technical gain and maybe is more
to make news and for fun.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Possibly riser bars might be more comfortable? Though if the cross bike is
working for you, Ie not feeling too under-biked?

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/11/2023 9:51 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I see a new fad coming....
>
> https://velo.outsideonline.com/gravel/gravel-racing/best-bike-leadville-trail-100-mtb/

Occasionally, people stumble on a fad that makes sense. There's hope!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Not much hope for anyone stumbling on, and accepting your opinions.

[Roger Meriman]

Not remotely new, Monster cross ie MTB with drops have been around for
decades see John Tomac for example.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass obsessed on frank again:

Much less so yours, dumbass

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yes, people have been putting drop bars on MTBs for decades, but it never really caught on. That isn't to say this will catch on, but it's [probably one of the more high-profile efforts I've seen.

[Tom Kunich]

Not likely. In my opinion a good carbon fiber gravel bike is so much lighter that no MTB will be in the same category. I had a real difficult route around Lake Chabot. There was one probably 70% climb that I couldn't do on my CX bike. No matter how hard I tried, the bike would stop 4 feet from the top and I would have to dismount and push it up. I got the Trek HiFi which was a fully suspended 29er. That could make it to the top without too much trouble other than 70% but it was in the lowest of a very low gear set. Also the weight of the bike set you to crawling around the course. I could keep up with the others on MTB's but that was it.

When I got back on the CX and pushed up that hard part I could ride away from all of the MTB's the rest of the way around. So much faster that in the last 500 yards I would drop them so badly that I was half way down the other side before they even got to the top. While I was faster then than I am now I was not particularly fast.

Leadville is forever climbing so I expect that an unsuspended CX bike will get so much time on the climbs that the suspension won't help on the return. One of the things that some organizers will do is forbid unsuspended bikes. That makes the MTB's look really good because the hardtails are so much lighter than a full suspension.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Well, we have our answer.
https://www.athlinks.com/event/370068/results/Event/1022514/Course/2263113/Results

Our protagonist Dylan Johnson got 17th overall, 3 places better than last year, but 1:45 slower than last year. A couple of notable points:
- The winner Keegan Swenson smashed the previous course record by 15 minutes. However, 2nd place was 25 minutes down so the course wasn't especially fast, Keegan Swenson just seriously kicked ass (no word on any doping allegations). FWIW, Swenson won last year as well, but with a more "normal" margin.
- since it wasn't an especially fast course (no one else besides Swenson came within 10 minutes of the old record), Johnsons selection of an MTB with drop bars doesn't seem to have hurt him much. if anything was quite helpful.

Another interesting point is that the Velo article quotes Swenson as considering drop bars as well:
" This year, the defending champ will be on a similar rig albeit sans the baby bars [last years bike was a hard tail with mini aerobars (now banned)]— but he too was considering swapping out flat bars with drops.
“I gave it a go, but I couldn’t nail the fit/position,” Swenson said. "

[Roger Meriman]

At least on some of his videos he talks about Leadville and how it’s quite
old school XC course, with largely gravel roads and what not and only a few
miles of the 100 mile race being single track.

Realistically if the speed is high which XC MTB races can be and it’s not
too technical (though it is getting more so over the years) then drops are
likely to be faster, I’d suggest the cross over is within XC though by
Trail let alone Enduro/DH that flat bars come into there own mainly
control.

> Another interesting point is that the Velo article quotes Swenson as
> considering drop bars as well:
> " This year, the defending champ will be on a similar rig albeit sans the
> baby bars [last years bike was a hard tail with mini aerobars (now
> banned)]— but he too was considering swapping out flat bars with drops.
> “I gave it a go, but I couldn’t nail the fit/position,” Swenson said. "
>

Not surprisingly really MTB frames have diverged admittedly XC bikes less
so, from road frames significantly this century ie no longer just beefed up
slightly slacker road frames.

So getting the fit right with drops would I assume be more challenging.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Considering the winners are averaging over 17 MPH, I'd consider there's enough high-speed in the course to make it worthwhile

> > Another interesting point is that the Velo article quotes Swenson as
> > considering drop bars as well:
> > " This year, the defending champ will be on a similar rig albeit sans the
> > baby bars [last years bike was a hard tail with mini aerobars (now
> > banned)]— but he too was considering swapping out flat bars with drops.
> > “I gave it a go, but I couldn’t nail the fit/position,” Swenson said. "
> >
> Not surprisingly really MTB frames have diverged admittedly XC bikes less
> so, from road frames significantly this century ie no longer just beefed up
> slightly slacker road frames.
>
> So getting the fit right with drops would I assume be more challenging.

Right, he might need to talk to his sponsors about some different geometry to make it work. Given that he's won twice and now has the course record he probably has the leverage to make that happen.

>
> Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed I don’t average that on Gravel rides…admittedly I’m not a pro or
even amateur racer!

>
>>> Another interesting point is that the Velo article quotes Swenson as
>>> considering drop bars as well:
>>> " This year, the defending champ will be on a similar rig albeit sans the
>>> baby bars [last years bike was a hard tail with mini aerobars (now
>>> banned)]— but he too was considering swapping out flat bars with drops.
>>> “I gave it a go, but I couldn’t nail the fit/position,” Swenson said. "
>>>
>> Not surprisingly really MTB frames have diverged admittedly XC bikes less
>> so, from road frames significantly this century ie no longer just beefed up
>> slightly slacker road frames.
>>
>> So getting the fit right with drops would I assume be more challenging.
>
> Right, he might need to talk to his sponsors about some different
> geometry to make it work. Given that he's won twice and now has the
> course record he probably has the leverage to make that happen.
>

Maybe though it’s the outlier as most are becoming more technical and so XC
bikes are getting slacker, modern ones geometry isn’t too far off my trail
MTB from 10 or so years back.

And the classic XC hardtail is loosing ground to full suspension again due
to races being more technical.

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/opinion/hardtail-analysis-cross-country-racing/?fbclid=IwAR1uco365fhw-VcK_MzwwRwceocZF-JJ46ymRTO201TvSEtAUoZCaxbNCFQ_aem_AQ-c0KrSitFtkQ2xBGi1GrpX0rFb44k8xpYZDUXsxg31rwnNYTSSXFtxD4QBbleQgHo

Such as the 2012 London Olympics MTB course while it has some significant
drops and what not it’s largely fairly smooth gravel paths.


>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Roger - Do you know what the Leadville race it? The TOWN is over 10,000 feet - that gives normal people altitude sickness. So even though the climbing is mild, without oxygen even a flat wide gravel road is hard as hell. I spent 9 months in Denver and believe me - doing a pushup is hard until your lungs become conditioned. It is more challenging than you can imagine.

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed that’s why the racers acclimatise too it, plus it’s length ie 100
miles. And I’m told that going into the red at altitude is very bad idea!

But the point was the race course conditions which it’s fast 17mph average
for winners it’s not a technical course, hence the interest in drop bars to
get more aero, as apparently aero bars had been banned which is probably
wise really.

With MTB and Gravel bikes and monster cross will always be a bit of
compromise in places.

For example just back from a ride around Stonehenge/Imber Ranges the gravel
roads where largely places that favoured the Gravel bike, but even so on
some of the rutted steep dips need care, where the MTB would of just
blasted through that no need to brake or adjust line as it’s much more
capable bike once the surfaces get rough and rutted.

though on the later half of the gravel road which was smoother and required
less line choices if any clipped along nicely knocking on at high teens/low
twenties.

And clearly the road sections plus the distance on the whole favour the
Gravel bike though a loop in winter in the mud would be more to the MTB
skill set.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Fighter pilots go on oxygen around 8,000 feet so 10,000 is hitting the limit. You can acclimate but you move slow. I think that Leadville race peaks at 12,000 feet so even an easy race is hard.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

There's a long unpaved Rail Trail not too far from me with a similar situation, but it has a 1 mile long sandy section on a slight grade. A CX bike Is great for most of the 15 mile course, but hitting that sand with CX tires forces a dismount, whereas 2.2s on an MTB lets you power through at decent speed. I'm sure there are riders with more power and handling skills who wouldn't need to dismount, I'm not one of them....

[Roger Meriman]

I don’t mind sand within reason it’s quite like riding in snow to a extent
sort of drifting! Some large areas of the woods are sand so encounter it
fairly regularly, some really awkward sandy climbs that in high summer can
humble the best as you just sink into the sand! And to rub further injury
to one’s ego most of the “climbs” are essentially false flats but even so I
don’t always get up on the Gravel bike, the MTB can just claw it’s way up
with its 2.4 inch tires though still in places hard going.

In short sand is great ego deflating substance!

>>
>> though on the later half of the gravel road which was smoother and required
>> less line choices if any clipped along nicely knocking on at high teens/low
>> twenties.
>>
>> And clearly the road sections plus the distance on the whole favour the
>> Gravel bike though a loop in winter in the mud would be more to the MTB
>> skill set.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I see a new fad coming....
>
> https://velo.outsideonline.com/gravel/gravel-racing/best-bike-leadville-trail-100-mtb/
>

He’s got another video plus pinkbike article.

https://youtu.be/WzZ65Rnp-gA

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-dylan-johnson-leadville-100-2023.html

I’m unconvinced that a burly gravel bike wouldn’t be a better option, his
MTB is running 55mm (600g) tires and 100mm forks,

Such as Canyon Grizl with 50mm clearance so would have to find right tires
Conti doesn’t really do too well on the Gravel front, and only 30mm travel.

Are some out there with space for 60mm tires and so on.

That at least some where running gravel tires which is largely the weakest
point of gravel bikes ie lightweight ie fragile tires, which makes me
question that a gravel bike would be less durable on this race.

After all XC tires are fairly lightweight stuff anyway, trail tires I run
are north of 1kg!

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I have a set of ~20 year old Kenda Cosmic Lite tires that are advertised at 395 grams that I still ride. They're in amazing shape for their age.

[Roger Meriman]

I had some IRC Mud Mad XC of that vintage, eventually succumbed to a rock
strike!

Where amazing in mud though! Just cut right though it, rather lethal on wet
roots/rocks or just traveling fast on hard pack as tall narrow tire with
hard rubber!

But best tire I ever had for bog riding as it could just claw its way
through!

MTB tires have got lot more beefy ie heavy over the years, and less
specific, very few for example pure mud tires if any?

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

It's not a new problem:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/nvx17g.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZRWpEl4d4N0/U5xSRs5B_CI/AAAAAAAAC1g/wLWSRRY222Y/s1600/Slide1.jpg

But it's become a very large problem.
No sign of improvement either:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/17/6a/c4/176ac491a3775800df979ebcb01471a0.jpg

[Roger Meriman]

I assume this is derailleur hangers? Which SRAM apparently are attempting
to solve?

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

'Solve'??
So did everyone else, each in their own way

http://www.yellowjersey.org/enzr1.jpg

That's a very small sample of the many variants but in that
series, any modern rear changer fits the mount.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I think part of the issue is that you posted this to the wrong thread. The discussion on derailleur hangers is over here:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/yme7V-_fwTI

[AMuzi]

You're right. THX

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/23/2023 9:20 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> It's not a new problem:
>

> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZRWpEl4d4N0/U5xSRs5B_CI/AAAAAAAAC1g/wLWSRRY222Y/s1600/Slide1.jpg

I think you're in the wrong thread. But anyway:
https://www.renehersecycles.com/nivex-derailleurs-are-here/

Don't throw that old frame away! ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I bought the correct dropout every time by carefully looking at the Ebay -for safe ones and guessing