Friction shifting

[Frank Krygowski]

One man's views on friction shifting:

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/why-i-converted-all-my-bikes-to-friction-shifting/

- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Well yes it’s popular among the retro grouches/folks who want to mix and
match stuff to their particular wants.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:26:50 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

Friction shifting the two or three chainrings is easy enough, but I
recall that friction shifting the rear is a three step process. First
making the shift, and then listening for, and finally, if need be,
correcting the chain clatter..

[Lou Holtman]

Congratulation you found an article that fits your agenda. I keep pressing buttons if you don’t mind.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

What I remember approaching a corner ‘shall I shift?’, ‘ah never mind too much trouble’. Coming out of a corner accelerating out of the saddle ‘shit I have to sit down to upshift’. All this was never an option riding a mountain bike off road. They never bothered with friction/downtube shifters. They were smart. It took a time for the roadies.

Lou

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:26:50 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

When I lived in Bangkok I had down tube friction shifters on my bikes
and was quite happy with them. Bangkok is, of course. built on an
alluvial plain and my usual "morning ride", about a 20 km loop,
required shifting once. Twice if the wind was blowing the wrong way
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 16:33:18 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I do a lot of shifting, and more now that I have the trigger shifters.
On my regular ride, I have a few gentle slopes to deal with (in spite
of what Krygowski claims about my rides), and moving 250 lbs on a bike
where it's impossible to get off the seat and stand on the pedals is
an issue.

There are several highway crossings that require a slowdown, and
often, a complete stop. A couple of them require a short but steep
climb up to the highway level, and if I'm stopped, I need to be in a
very low gear.

In addition, I like to vary my cadence.

[AMuzi]

Celebrate diversity!

I have a friction derailleur bike, a Sturmey AW (the
original index shift!) bike and one with no pesky gear
change at all.

Works for me.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

True buy most humans learn it readily, much like shifting a
straight-cut (non-syncro) gearbox.

[Tom Kunich]

I have a friend with a new Tommasini and a Ekar group that he is talking about changing over to friction shifting. So crazy people are everywhere.

[Tom Kunich]

Friction shifting was slow and clumsy and people immediately changed to Shimano's brifters not because it was the latest thing but because it was so much faster and required no thought at all, especially on the early 7 speeds. Bending over to shift downtube levers invariably took your eyes off of the road even with a lot of practice. I cannot for the life of me see why ANYONE would for one second try and sell the idea that friction shifting was any good.

[Catrike Rider]

Like my old Triumph spitfire.. It had syncros, but they were shot.

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't mind. Ride what you like!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/12/2023 9:52 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Friction shifting was slow and clumsy and people immediately changed to Shimano's brifters not because it was the latest thing but because it was so much faster and required no thought at all, especially on the early 7 speeds. Bending over to shift downtube levers invariably took your eyes off of the road even with a lot of practice.

First, you're setting up an inaccurate dichotomy. It's not "friction vs.
brifters." It's "friction vs. index." There are several variants of
index shifting that don't involve the mechanical complexity of brifters.

Second, you really had to take your eyes off the road to find your
downtube shifters? Wow! They're always in the same place! How do you
find your water bottle??

> I cannot for the life of me see why ANYONE would for one second try and sell the idea that friction shifting was any good.

Ah well. Even though you can't see it, it's still good for many people.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

It was good enough at that time and for many people it is still good enough. The person in that article is an idiot in my eyes converting all his bikes back to friction shifters. ‘I want to be in control again’? Huh, you are always in control. If you don’t push the button of Di2 nothing happens.

Lou

[Mark Cleary]

I want no part of friction shifting. I don't mind mechanical and Di2 would be ok for me also. No friction shifting and shifters on the downtube. I want my hands on the bars at all times.
Deacon Mark

[Roger Meriman]

I had a older road bike years back so yes limited to 23mm or so tires and
all that.

It had down tube shifters though I indexed for the rear, the front was
friction and as long as not in a hurry worked fine, as you could trip it to
be silent what ever gear you where in. So dint have to rely on the 4
positions for example that my Gravel bike mech offers.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:17:00 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
<deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 10:46:31?AM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 3:52:28?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

+1

[Tom Kunich]

So what is it when a pro racer crashes trying to put a water bottle in the carrier? Just a stupid rider that can't tell where things are on his bike? I really cannot tell where in the world you're coming from when you're comparing downtube index shifters to Brifters. What in the hell do you think happened when Brifters came out? Where you riding bicycles at that time? There was an overnight conversion. No pro had the slightest chance without Brifters. ALL manufacturers immediately followed suit. You're just acting weird for no reason I can ascertain.

[Tom Kunich]

There's no real difference between a well adjusted manual (say Dura Ace) group and a Di2 but the Di2 only requires adjusting once. So I would say that Di2 is better. It NEVER misses a shift unless something goes wrong. This apparently occurs rarely in the pro peloton since the addresses and range of the Blue Tooth are such that they can interfere with one another seldom. but the chances of a normal rider having a mis-shift because of this is almost impossible.

[Tom Kunich]

Because of the damage due to the concussion I have to take a medication that between the two of them gives me no balance at all. I tried riding without hands as I used to do quite easily before and while I can with a good sight horizon all it takes is the slightest bump and I really don't feel that crashing is one of the better parts of bicycling.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 13:00:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Brifterrs are not the only way one can shift without taking hands off
the grips. My trigger shifters are located where I can reach them
with my thumb while my fingers are pulling on the brake levers, and
never losing enough contact with the grips to contol steering. Of
course, my handlebars are very unique.

[Tom Kunich]

Those were a long time coming after Brifters.

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

First Deore XT trigger shifters, 'Rapid Fire STi' 1986.
First Dura Ace integrated STi road levers 1992.

[Lou Holtman]

Trigger shifters are brifters because they are next to the brake lever. They came before road brifters.
Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Huh??.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 14:16:23 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Meh, what's in a name?

[Tom Kunich]

If I remember those correctly they were NOT trigger shifters but index shifters that were flat bar mounted instead of on the downtube. And they were made largely out of plastic and had a short lifespan.

[Tom Kunich]

Brifters were combined brake and shift levers. These were so popular EVERYONE had to copy them immediately. They were road bike levers. There were NOT indexed levers that happened to mount on flat bars instead of the down tube. I don't know what you're thinking of when we say "Trigger Shifters" but they were not before Brifters.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:17:03 PM UTC-4, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> I want no part of friction shifting. I don't mind mechanical and Di2 would be ok for me also. No friction shifting and shifters on the downtube. I want my hands on the bars at all times.

That surprises me. Taking one hand off the bars is handy for other things besides shifting.
I do it to take a drink from a water bottle, signal turns or stops and many other things. I've
climbed hills while pushing weaker riders with one hand.

Taking two hands off the bars is handy for just relaxing on a downhill. I've take off jackets many
times while riding "no hands," and even taken off rain capes a few times.

I can't imagine having to always stop to do all those things. And shifting is the simplest of
any of them.

A magazine article we've discussed here, in which young racers were doing test rides of
old vs. new racing frames, generated remarks from some of the young guys about non-STI
shifters. They said they were afraid to take their hands off the bars. I always thought that
must be an extremely rare fear. Maybe it's not.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 10:17:00 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary

<deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 10:46:31?AM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 3:52:28?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sYk-7v74C8
and it appears to be a public highway too :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 08:21:48 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Didn't Eddy Merckx say something like, "Miss a shift? I haven't missed
a shift since I was 8 years old"?
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good grief.... It has nothing to do with fear. Yes, sometimes a
bicyclist must take his hands off the bars, but since cranking the
pedals involves back and arm muscles, lifting my hand(s) off the bars
interferes with my pedaling.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I firmly believe that index shifters were a a great thing for new bicycle riders. Those new riders using index shifters didn't have the learning curve that was common learning to shift friction shifters so that the chain ran quietly on the chosen cog. Index shifters are also great for anyone with a hearing loss or who rides in heavy traffic where a misaligned chain wouldn't be hear by them.

Moving the shifters to the handlebar made it more likely to shift more often too.

Some of my bikes have downtube friction shifters, others have downtube index shifters, a couple have bar end shifters capable of being index shifter if I want, and two of my bicycles have 9-speed Campagnolo Ergo shifters on the handlebar.

One of my bikes doesn't have any shifters at all as it's a single-speed "Funny Bike" I built for fun from spare parts.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 6:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 1:52:18 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 8/12/2023 3:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> If I remember those correctly they were NOT trigger shifters but index shifters that were flat bar mounted instead of on the downtube. And they were made largely out of plastic and had a short lifespan.
>

Deore XT Rapid Fire is a trigger system and the first
iteration was an all-steel mechanism. The nylon bits came
long after.

[AMuzi]

On 8/12/2023 6:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 2:16:59 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 10:30:20 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:

That's not the correct time line.
MTB trigger shifters predate the first integrated road
levers by several years.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 5:01 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A magazine article we've discussed here, in which young racers were doing test rides of
>> old vs. new racing frames, generated remarks from some of the young guys about non-STI
>> shifters. They said they were afraid to take their hands off the bars. I always thought that
>> must be an extremely rare fear. Maybe it's not.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Good grief.... It has nothing to do with fear.

The young racers in the article in question expressed fear. They said
they found it scary to take their hands off the bars. Others have
expressed similar fear.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Bullshit. I don't believe you...

Here's what Krygowski snipped off my post because he knows it's
true...

[Catrike Rider]

The simple fact is that you can't pedal hard unless you're gripping
the bars. It's even more important when you're up and off the saddle.
Of course a real casual rider might even be able to ride with no hands
on thr bar.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank is doing nothing more than reporting what others have said. When I'm going 60 mph do you suppose that I am going to take my hands off of the bars for one second? Don't mistake your disagreements with Krygowski on one subject to bias your opinions on other subjects. It's time we ALL stopped doing that.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 12:22:19 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Any opinion I can't say straight up, I won't be saying.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 3:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Frank is doing nothing more than reporting what others have said. When I'm going 60 mph do you suppose that I am going to take my hands off of the bars for one second?

When you're going 60 mph (Hah!) why would you be shifting?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

When you're going that speed you need to pedal to maintain balance and control. I would have thought that you would know that. That is what a 52 or 53 tooth big ring is all about. The way you carry on I have to wonder just how much riding you really do. 220 lbs of rider and bike on the drops and holding down in an aero position can easily hit 60 mph on a descent of just 8%. At the bottom of such a descent you have to maintain pedal pressure to keep from having problems with steering. Maybe you should look up the latest casualties in the pro-peloton.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 4:00:19 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2023 at 8:21:42 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/12/2023 9:52 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >
> > > Friction shifting was slow and clumsy and people immediately changed to Shimano's brifters not because it was the latest thing but because it was so much faster and required no thought at all, especially on the early 7 speeds. Bending over to shift downtube levers invariably took your eyes off of the road even with a lot of practice.

No, it didn't. The shifters were always in the same place, I never had to look down to find them. This included setting up for sprints out of a high-speed corners in criteriums. No one looks down then - If you didn't know how to shift in that situation without looking you had no business being there. I rode down-tube shifters until 1992. Most of the amateur peloton had already converted by then.

> > First, you're setting up an inaccurate dichotomy. It's not "friction vs.
> > brifters." It's "friction vs. index." There are several variants of
> > index shifting that don't involve the mechanical complexity of brifters.
> >
> > Second, you really had to take your eyes off the road to find your
> > downtube shifters? Wow! They're always in the same place! How do you
> > find your water bottle??
> > > I cannot for the life of me see why ANYONE would for one second try and sell the idea that friction shifting was any good.
> > Ah well. Even though you can't see it, it's still good for many people.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> So what is it when a pro racer crashes trying to put a water bottle in the carrier? Just a stupid rider that can't tell where things are on his bike?

After watching professional racing and competing at the amateur level for 35 years, I can say I have yet to see that happen. The bottle cage doesn't move, so there's no need to look down. I've seen crashes from riders trying to take off a layer, open a package of food, trying to eat (hitting a minor road obstacle or trying to avoid another rider while riding one-handed), looking back at their cogs or brakes, but I've never seen a crash from someone trying to preplace a water bottle....You see all kinds of weird shit no one else does.

> I really cannot tell where in the world you're coming from when you're comparing downtube index shifters to Brifters. What in the hell do you think happened when Brifters came out? Where you riding bicycles at that time? There was an overnight conversion. No pro had the slightest chance without Brifters. ALL manufacturers immediately followed suit. You're just acting weird for no reason I can ascertain.

Indexed down tubes were a big help - easier to set the gear when you're on O2 debt and exhausted, but it still required taking a hand off the bar. Integrated shifters were a game changer.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:13:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/13/2023 3:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank is doing nothing more than reporting what others have said. When I'm going 60 mph do you suppose that I am going to take my hands off of the bars for one second?
> > When you're going 60 mph (Hah!) why would you be shifting?
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> When you're going that speed you need to pedal to maintain balance and control. I would have thought that you would know that.

No, you don't. In fact, the opposite is true. Attempting to spin a high Candence at high speed is a good way to _lose_ control. Watch any pro race descending from a high mountain. They tuck and coast, very rarely will you see them pedal over 50 MPH. In order to pedal at 60 MPH A rider with a 55x11 is going to have to spin at ~155. Sure, the pros can do that, but they very rarely do because you can't corner while spinning that fast.

> That is what a 52 or 53 tooth big ring is all about. The way you carry on I have to wonder just how much riding you really do.

Your comments make us wonder how much riding you really do. The big ring is just there to go faster, it has nothing to do with stability or control.

> 220 lbs of rider and bike on the drops and holding down in an aero position can easily hit 60 mph on a descent of just 8%. At the bottom of such a descent you have to maintain pedal pressure to keep from having problems with steering.

Bullshit, A properly set-up bike doesn't have issue with steering as a result of speed. If there's a speed wobble, something's wrong with the set-up, and pedaling isn't going to help.

> Maybe you should look up the latest casualties in the pro-peloton.

Sure, let's see how many were caused by a rider coasting at 60 MPH when they should have (according to you) been pedaling.

Gawd yer fucking idiot.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:43:50 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 13:16:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 8/13/2023 5:01 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> A magazine article we've discussed here, in which young racers were doing test rides of
> >>> old vs. new racing frames, generated remarks from some of the young guys about non-STI
> >>> shifters. They said they were afraid to take their hands off the bars. I always thought that
> >>> must be an extremely rare fear. Maybe it's not.
> >>>
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >>
> >> Good grief.... It has nothing to do with fear.
> >
> >The young racers in the article in question expressed fear. They said
> >they found it scary to take their hands off the bars. Others have
> >expressed similar fear.
> Bullshit. I don't believe you...

I'm going to laugh my ass off when Jeff produces the article in question.

> Here's what Krygowski snipped off my post because he knows it's
> true...
> Yes, sometimes a
> bicyclist must take his hands off the bars, but since cranking the
> pedals involves back and arm muscles, lifting my hand(s) off the bars
> interferes with my pedaling.

He snipped it because it isn't relevant, dumbass.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:24:49 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:43:50?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 13:16:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 8/13/2023 5:01 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> A magazine article we've discussed here, in which young racers were doing test rides of
>> >>> old vs. new racing frames, generated remarks from some of the young guys about non-STI
>> >>> shifters. They said they were afraid to take their hands off the bars. I always thought that
>> >>> must be an extremely rare fear. Maybe it's not.
>> >>>
>> >>> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Good grief.... It has nothing to do with fear.
>> >
>> >The young racers in the article in question expressed fear. They said
>> >they found it scary to take their hands off the bars. Others have
>> >expressed similar fear.
>> Bullshit. I don't believe you...
>
>I'm going to laugh my ass off when Jeff produces the article in question.

Groan. I wasn't part of that discussion. Frank keeps referring to a
magazine article and will likely have a link or clue as to the
magazine name, issue, and article. Without better clues to the
article content, I can't find it using Google search.

For what little it's worth today, when I was still riding, I had no
trouble riding, steering, shifting, eating and drinking with no hands
on the handlebars. However, that was on a fairly flat and level road.
When I tried no-hands riding on a rough road (like the street in front
of my house), it was difficult. Add some potholes and obstacles, I
couldn't do it. Stability also varied depending on which bicycle I
was riding. Some were easy, while others were less easy:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/5bikes.JPG>

I don't like the pedaling required for stability theory. I've coasted
at various speeds both with and without hands on the handlebars.
Whether I was pedaling or not didn't seem to make any difference.

>> Here's what Krygowski snipped off my post because he knows it's
>> true...
>> Yes, sometimes a
>> bicyclist must take his hands off the bars, but since cranking the
>> pedals involves back and arm muscles, lifting my hand(s) off the bars
>> interferes with my pedaling.
>
> He snipped it because it isn't relevant, dumbass.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:55:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

I'm pretty sure anybody can ride a two wheeler with no hands unless
the front wheels trail isn't screwy. What I was addressing, however
is hands on the grips while pedaling hard.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 7:21 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:13:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/13/2023 3:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frank is doing nothing more than reporting what others have said. When I'm going 60 mph do you suppose that I am going to take my hands off of the bars for one second?
>>> When you're going 60 mph (Hah!) why would you be shifting?
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> When you're going that speed you need to pedal to maintain balance and control. I would have thought that you would know that.
>
> No, you don't. In fact, the opposite is true. Attempting to spin a high Candence at high speed is a good way to _lose_ control. Watch any pro race descending from a high mountain. They tuck and coast, very rarely will you see them pedal over 50 MPH. In order to pedal at 60 MPH A rider with a 55x11 is going to have to spin at ~155.

And as we've discussed many times, there's no benefit. In general, at
high speeds you descend faster in a tuck than you do pedaling. You can't
produce enough power to overcome the additional aero drag of being out
of the tuck and flailing your legs around. Exceptions are brief and rare.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/13/2023 7:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 16:24:49 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 1:43:50?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>> On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 13:16:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 8/13/2023 5:01 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2023 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A magazine article we've discussed here, in which young racers were doing test rides of
>>>>>> old vs. new racing frames, generated remarks from some of the young guys about non-STI
>>>>>> shifters. They said they were afraid to take their hands off the bars. I always thought that
>>>>>> must be an extremely rare fear. Maybe it's not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good grief.... It has nothing to do with fear.
>>>>
>>>> The young racers in the article in question expressed fear. They said
>>>> they found it scary to take their hands off the bars. Others have
>>>> expressed similar fear.
>>> Bullshit. I don't believe you...
>>
>> I'm going to laugh my ass off when Jeff produces the article in question.
>
> Groan. I wasn't part of that discussion. Frank keeps referring to a
> magazine article and will likely have a link or clue as to the
> magazine name, issue, and article. Without better clues to the
> article content, I can't find it using Google search.

I've looked and so far haven't been able to locate it. We had extensive
discussions about it, primarily because the article (in some magazine
that's now defunct, IIRC) claimed the young guys were faster uphill
because of more gears, better shifting, more rigid frames, more
aerodynamics, etc. But computation easily showed that the slight speed
increase was exactly what physics predicted based on the weight difference.

I'll continue looking, eventually. I thought I'd saved a PDF, but so
far, no luck.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 22:33:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski

I see. So, apparently, even Krygowski believes this undocumented
article is bullshit.

>I'll continue looking, eventually. I thought I'd saved a PDF, but so
>far, no luck.

I suspect that if such an article actually exists, the so called
"young riders" were simply expressing what I said about not being able
to pedal hard with their hands off the bars. That's especially true if
you're up off the saddle, like one is likely to do when pedaling
uphill, which, referencing Krygowski's statement above, might have
been what the article was all about.

I don't believe I've seen a person take a hand off the grips while
pedaling uphill and I'm pretty sure I've never done it, but then, I
admit I don't pay much attention to other people riding bicycles.

Mind you, this is about *pedaling" uphill, not just standing on the
pedals.

Krygowski seems to like translating other people's motivations as
being based on fear. I suspect that's because most of his own
motivations are based on his fear of having to reflect on his own
boring, unproductive life.

[John B.]

I do remember the article. It was about someone who made two identical
steel bicycles. One from the best available materials and one from the
cheapest. One was painted one color and the other a different color.
Then they got a bunch of "experts" to ride them and select the "best"
and "worst" bicycle.

The interesting part was that the "experts" really couldn't pick the
best or worst and a number selected the one made from crappy material
as the best ride. I don't remember the details but apparently the
bikes had down tube shifters and I do remember a comment about having
to let go of the bars when shifting.

Over all I thought it was a poke in the eye aimed at self declared
"experts" who pontify about bike construction but, in reality can't
tell the difference between bikes made from the most expensive
materials and the cheapest..

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Can't find it now but it was Bicycle Guide who tested three
frames, all painted the same. Riders preferred the Thron to
'premium' tube. Being slightly thicker Cyclex tube, the
Thron stiffness was preferred over slightly lighter tube.

[Catrike Rider]

I'd surely like to see what prompted the "scary to take their hands
off the bars," remark. I'm thinking that was an inaccurate, out of
context paraphrase.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

You'll have to talk to John about that, since it was Johns claim that Frank was recalling above. John mentioned this idea that he read an article claiming riders were afraid to shift on the down tube in 2016.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/WWKxeqNnKRI/m/QN2dPGYuGAAJ
"I also read a test where "expert racers" were afraid
to shift using down tube shifters, and thought "so much for experts" "

After a bit of research, it seems there some articles being conflated. There are two I was able to find that compared frame tubing, both from Bicycle Guide.

One was a "shootout" in 1986. Seven steel frames with identical geometry but different tubing grades from Antonio Mondonico (of Guerciotti fame) were compared between 7 cyclists, with the least expensive tube set Columbus Thron coming out the marginal winner.
http://www.habcycles.com/m7.html

The other from 1987 compared two identical Bruce Gordon frames, Tange Prestige vs Columbus SL, and compared by two riders came to a similar result - SL was the winner.
http://www.bgcycles.com/new-page-1/

Neither article mentioned anything about the riders being hesitant to take their hands off the bars to shift. That would have been surprising given the dates of the tests, integrated levers hadn't been introduced yet - even indexing was relatively new in '87. Neither article makes any mention of comparing the skills of younger riders.

It seems the article Frank was referring to which attempted to verify "the young guys were faster uphill because of more gears, better shifting, more rigid frames, more aerodynamics," is still amoung the missing but it was John that made the reference you're having your floriDUH moment with.

So, dumbass, are you going to apologize to Frank for accusing him a making up something that didn't happen and projecting your own fears of inadequacy on him, or to John for accusing him of taking a report that he read out of context?

FWIW I do know of younger racers who have never used downtube shifters commenting "you mean you had to take your hand off the bars to shift to set up for the sprint?" It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out this may have been expressed as a 'fear' - kind of like your fear of riding without a gun.

[Tom Kunich]

After claiming that you race, why do you then show us that you either don't or do a lap or two and then drop out because you can't figure out what is going on?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Because I'm not you

[Frank Krygowski]

The remark about the downtube shifters was in a third article, not the
two mentioned above. As I recall, a modern CF bike was being compared
with a 1980s classic, maybe a Colnago. Jay Beattie was in on the
discussion, Jobst was not, which may help to date the discussion.

I may have time to dig through archives later today.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I've found a post referring to that article. Apparently the article was
much longer ago than I thought.
See
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Q0N8fGGvtyQ/m/qR-htTCRJgsJ

I'm still digging for the original article.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 14:13:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Still nothing about lots of people being afraid to take ther hands off
the handlebars...

[Lou Holtman]

There a moments you don’t want to take your hands of the handlebars. In the days of DT shifters you just didn’t shift. Now you can if you want like Tom Pidcock in this descent. Every clonk clonk you hear is a electronic shift

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99wJn5QBvyg&pp=ygUWdG9tIHBpZGNvY2sgZGVzY2VuZGluZw%3D%3D

No it is not the average rider but I shift often just before a corner and just after while out of the saddle. You can’t do that with DT shifters.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 12:13:10 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't believe I ever shifted downtube shifters when off the saddle,
but then, all my memories of two wheeler riding have cobwebs.

[Lou Holtman]

No one did. Looked a video about Greg Lemond on youtube the other day. He often climbed out of the saddle and every time he sat down to shift. He had a VO2max of 92.4 geezzz. That is talent.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I suppose there may have been certain riders that could pull that off, but I've never seen anybody do it.

> Looked a video about Greg Lemond on youtube the other day. He often climbed out of the saddle and every time he sat down to shift. He had a VO2max of 92.4 geezzz. That is talent.

+1

Tangent - The advent of integrated shifters brought a new problem, People were able to shift with the chain under a heavy load more frequently. It was possible with downtube shifters but there was only so much power you could apply while seated. With integrated shifters, people could shift while standing - not really possible before. Broken chains weren't uncommon in the early days of integrated shifters. I don't see it nearly as much any more. Either people learned not to do it, or the quality of the chains got way better, maybe both....

[Lou Holtman]

The chains got definitely better but you only had a chance of breaking chain when you cross chained. The tension the chain can handle. When cross chained tension peel off the outer plate.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 12:54:12 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

So maybe, the story of people being afraid to let go of the handlebars
had to do with shifting while out of the saddle.

[Lou Holtman]

Nobody shifted out of the saddle, maybe coincidentally with their knee ;-)

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Flunky, you're not anyone.

[Tom Kunich]

I think that whole thing was triggered by my comments about trigger shifters coming after brifters. Andrew disagreed with that so I have tried my hardest to find ANY trigger shifters with 7 speeds made before around 2005 and couldn't. They were all indexed shifters, usually regular downtube indexed shifters with flat bar mounts. Now Andrew has been in the business forever so he could easily be right, but I've been riding the top end just as long and I sure don't remember trigger shifters until modern times.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I never claimed to be anyone important, unlike you who claims to have debated politics with world figures, cured AIDS, saved businesses from financial ruin, read out three libraries,...all the while demonstrating a laughable lack of knowledge in all those areas.

I'm happy with my life, dipshit, I don't need to make up bullshit stories like arguing with janet yellin and making 233K as a management consultant to cover for - what for you - is a life of disappointment.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

STI "trigger shifters" were introduced by Shimano in 1990

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/Manufacturer+Archive/Shimano+Archive/Catalogues/1990/

[AMuzi]

Shimano Official History:
https://www.shimano.com/en/100th/history/products/31.php

I was off a bit, Rapid Fire Deore XT-II is 1989

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/14/2023 4:12 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Tangent - The advent of integrated shifters brought a new problem, People were able to shift with the chain under a heavy load more frequently. It was possible with downtube shifters but there was only so much power you could apply while seated. With integrated shifters, people could shift while standing - not really possible before.

I've shifted while standing a few times using bar-end shifters. It's not
easy, but sometimes it's possible, just barely.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

There is a local racer (former pro) Paul Curley, who was a domestic pro in the 70's and 80's and did a (very) brief stint in Europe. He has more national championship wins from criterium and CX than I've even placed in races. He installed bar-ends when they were still a new thing on his CX for exactly that reason - he could keep his hands on the bars while shifting and setting up for a sprint. After he found out how much more control he had he installed them on his road bike. He was racing steel bikes (Hot Tubes) with bar ends until very recently, and still winning races. He still lines up for local criteriums and CX races at age 68 and wins, though he converted to carbon with integrated shifting a few years ago. https://www.road-results.com/racer/390

[Tom Kunich]

No, you're a cowardly lying POS. I neve claimed to have debated politics with world figures and you're too stupid to know the difference between financial policy and politics. And you believe that some hslf ass fool like Janet Yellen is a "world figure". She must be because she is debating financial policies on a newsgroup right? What's more I made that claim back during Obama and she has SINCE admitted that she was wrong.

Also if you were a real engineer and not some paperwork signoff expert, you'd know what real development is done by teams of people and that automating PCR as me and Michael McCown did for Kary Mullis made possible the discovery of HIV. The problem here is that you're not a real engineer and have never worked at a real engineering job. So you simply are not equipped to know about developmental engineering and hence don't feel the slightest compunction in pretending to.

My life is so disappointing because I am making $40,000 a MONTH in interest. on my investments which are now in protected tax free bond funds. I just can't tell you how disappointed I am to be sure that my wife and step children are so well protected against the likes of Obama and Biden. Are you aware that Robert F Kennedy Jr. is the leading front runner with 20% more approval than Biden for the Democrat nomination? What's it feel like to know that all of the charges against Trump have not the slightest legal standing and that those responsible for these charges are going to be indicted for weaponizing the legal system? All your dreams smashed by a man that Biden has refused Secret Service protection? That is illegal as well. The CIA is gearing up to assassinate RFK Jr, like they did his uncle JFK.

You and everything you stand for is total corruption and it isn't fooling anyone Flunky, You're a production engineer and there is a need for those and there is nothing wrong with that. But you're so ashamed of never achieving anything that you can only deny that others have. Liebermann has the same problem. Krygowski as well though to a far lesser extend because college teachers are at least looked up to by students. Your technicians talk about you behind your back and you know it. Poor Liebermann just couldn't made the leap from academic education to on-the-job training which would have brought him into the late 20th century. As for Slocomb, he was an absolute nothing in the Air Force and after retiring he did EXACTLY what many retirees do - he got a job at a company that supplied janitorial services for military bases. In the service he was too valuable to be used changing toilet paper in the toilets but in the service company he was too valuable NOT to change toilet paper rolls.

I've been there and seen it all. I've watched companies kill themselves through mismanagement and companies with great management such as Diablo Systems absorbed all of the companies around them because they had good products - many of which I designed and programmed.

Yeah, you are right that I am disappointed - I am disappointed that NASA was so covered in bureaucracy that they wasted my time when I could do something better than write a 1600 page manual when the communications protocols in my circuit board were published standards. I am disappointed that the Army hired physicists from Lawrence Livermore Labs that came from UC Berkeley and didn't have the good sense to analyze their detector properly wasting my time having to re-analyze their poor work and eventually poisoning me with improper procedures of deadly substances. I am disappointed that I was injured and that the local neurologist was so incompetent he could not recognize the symptoms of an extreme concussion and the local emergency doctors did not believe that concussions are a serious matter.

But my disappointments are life changing while yours leave you stuck in a little hole on the side of the assembly line with nothing better to do all day but post on an internet group.

I call you guys the stupid 4 not because I believe that any of you are stupid but because you all act stupid and continue to do so in the face of overwhelming evidence of what you're doing.,

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 12:13:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>No, you're a cowardly lying POS. I neve claimed to have debated politics with world figures and you're too stupid to know the difference between financial policy and politics. And you believe that some hslf ass fool like Janet Yellen is a "world figure". She must be because she is debating financial policies on a newsgroup right? What's more I made that claim back during Obama and she has SINCE admitted that she was wrong.

08/31/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/spFB2wrDfr8/m/5VkSn4xCBgAJ>
"I argue with Janet Yellen for two days on Facebook before they
suspended me for arguing with an "acknowledged expert". Inflation
occurs when the money supply expands more rapidly that the good to
buy..."

None of your claims are correct. You didn't debate or argue with
Janet Yellen on Facebook. I just checked and she doesn't have a
Facebook account. However, she does have some "fan" groups:
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/812580636109449>
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/2545857748985954/>

If your account really was suspended by Facebook, it was probably for
posting insults like you do in RBT. Inflation is where the money
supply is larger than the available goods to buy. The rate at which
it expands is very important, but has little to do with whether there
is or isn't an inflationary economy.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 12:13:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>...I am making $40,000 a MONTH in interest. on my

>investments which are now in protected tax free bond funds.

Congratulations. Let's see if the numbers work. AAA rated, 10 year,
tax free municipal bonds are currently paying 2.70% interest:
<https://www.fmsbonds.com/market-yields/>

$40,000/month, at 2.7% compounded monthly, for 10 years, will require
a principal of $4,500,000.
<https://www.calculator.net/interest-calculator.html?cstartingprinciple=0&cannualaddition=0&cmonthlyaddition=40%2C000&cadditionat1=beginning&cinterestrate=2.7&ccompound=monthly&cyears=10&cmonths=0&ctaxtrate=0&cinflationrate=0&printit=0&x=Calculate#interestresults>

Last time you boasted how much you were worth, it was about $1.75
million.

03/05/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/JG80Gv6eFz4/m/I5iXXkCRAgAJ>
"... I am worth a million and 3/4 dollars. Exactly what are you
worth?"

So, either you robbed a bank for the extra $2.75 million or you're
lying as usual. Cccam's razor should make the choice easy.

[Tom Kunich]

More of your pretense about everything. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Janet+Yelolen+she+was+wrong+about+inflation&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwXZ2-xDIytI

When you feel the need to show your ignorance perhaps you should start a new thread entitled "I want to show my stupidity".

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Care to show us where in any of those results it shows she frequented any on-line forums? Or that she debated with Tom Kunich?

lol...talk about showing off your stupidity!

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

This is going to be fun! Grab some popcorn!

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 3:13:30 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>

> No, you're a cowardly lying POS.

List one "lie" that I've ever posted.

> I neve claimed to have debated politics with world figures and you're too stupid to know the difference between financial policy and politics.

At Janet Yellens level nd position they are inextricably linked.

> And you believe that some hslf ass fool like Janet Yellen is a "world figure". She must be because she is debating financial policies on a newsgroup right?

Ms. Yellen never participated in any newsgroup forum. If you claim she did, post the link. She's the treasury of the secretary and the former fed chair. She's had one-on one meetings with Premier Li Qiang. Yes, that makes here a world figure.

> What's more I made that claim back during Obama and she has SINCE admitted that she was wrong.

She admitted she was wrong about fiscal policy related to the recent inflation. Your paranoid-delusional claims about the economy weren't related to anything she admitted she was wrong about.

> Also if you were a real engineer and not some paperwork signoff expert, you'd know what real development is done by teams of people

I do know that. I've always been involved in development teams, and even though I'm now largely an individual contributor, I'm listed in the project teams as a SME.

> and that automating PCR as me and Michael McCown did for Kary Mullis made possible the discovery of HIV.

You had nothing to do with the discovery of HIV. HIV was discovered years before you were involved in PCR. These are matters of documented history, it isn't going to change because you keep lying about it.

> The problem here is that you're not a real engineer and have never worked at a real engineering job.

lol....sure sparky. My resume tells a much different story.

> So you simply are not equipped to know about developmental engineering and hence don't feel the slightest compunction in pretending to.

- A good development engineer is aware that a manufacturing engineer isn't responsible for product design flaws.
- A good development engineer knows that work histories at NASA, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory are things that should be listed in some detail on a resume.
- A good development engineer with your alleged hardware experience knows that PWM isn't a commonly used method for testing cables - it isn't used to test cables at all - and "light line" isn't a commonly used term for fiber optics
- A good development engineer with your alleged software experience (any any software technician) knows why the average speed on a bike computer can increase while the current speed is decreasing, and knows that calculating speed is an extremely simple algorithm.
- A good development engineer with your alleged software experience knows the value of VHDL in ASIC design.

>
> My life is so disappointing because I am making $40,000 a MONTH in interest.

oh my! now it's $40K in a month! Do we hear 50K for next moth? <LOL> (and you still can't afford a custom steel frame...HAH!)

> on my investments which are now in protected tax free bond funds.

Good for you, earning 2% over ten years - which you can't access without paying a higher tax rate (tax free is only that when you leave it until maturity, dumbass).

> I just can't tell you how disappointed I am to be sure that my wife and step children are so well protected against the likes of Obama and Biden.

If so, it has nothing to do with their loser step-dad.

> Are you aware that Robert F Kennedy Jr. is the leading front runner with 20% more approval than Biden for the Democrat nomination?

Are you aware that you're completely full of shit?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/24_democratic_presidential_nomination-8171.html

RCP Average Poll Date:7/7 - 8/4 Biden:63.7 Kennedy:13.4 Williamson:5.9 Spread:Biden +50.3

> What's it feel like to know that all of the charges against Trump have not the slightest legal standing and that those responsible for these charges are going to be indicted for weaponizing the legal system?

Sure....just like the big red wave that turned out to be a pink whimper. Remember when Trump was going to send Hillary to jail? <LOL>

> All your dreams smashed by a man that Biden has refused Secret Service protection? That is illegal as well.

<snicker>
"The Secret Service states on its website that “major presidential and vice presidential candidates and their spouses within 120 days of a general presidential election” are protected by the Secret Service."
Kennedy isn't a major candidate, we're over a year from the election. Try again, dumbass.

> The CIA is gearing up to assassinate RFK Jr, like they did his uncle JFK.

tin foil hat alert!!!!

> You and everything you stand for is total corruption and it isn't fooling anyone Flunky,

If I was so corrupt, why am I so poor (according to you)? Why wouldn't I be richly basking in the ill-gotten gains of my corruption? Why would I have to go to work everyday? <snicker>

> You're a production engineer and there is a need for those and there is nothing wrong with that.

Wait, I thought I was a paperwork signoff expert who has never had a real engineering job, Now I'm a "production engineer" ? <LOL>

> But you're so ashamed of never achieving anything that you can only deny that others have.

Wait - I should be proud of becoming a "production engineer", but I'm ashamed at never having achieved anything? <LOL>

> Liebermann has the same problem. Krygowski as well though to a far lesser extend because college teachers are at least looked up to by students. Your technicians talk about you behind your back and you know it.

I don't have any reporting people, dumbass.

> Poor Liebermann <snipped more jealous ranting>... paper rolls.

>
> I've been there and seen it all. I've watched companies kill themselves through mismanagement and companies with great management such as Diablo Systems absorbed all of the companies around them

Wait... I though the companies you worked for were acquired by other companies, that's why your resume has so many name changes - that's what you wrote last week....but this week Diablo was acquiring other companies? which is it? And was that before or after Embarcardo Systems was paying a non-degreed electronics engineer $233K to be a senior business consultant? <lol>

> because they had good products - many of which I designed and programmed.

Ah yes, all those FDA approved products - for which you never did any FDA required V&V <LOL>

> Yeah, you are right that I am disappointed - I am disappointed that NASA was so covered in bureaucracy that they wasted my time when I could do something better than write a 1600 page manual when the communications protocols in my circuit board were published standards.

Ah, yes, that communication board that you completely designed, validation tested for a rocket launch to the ISS, wrote a 1600 page manual for, and traveled around the country demonstrating, all in the period of one year! <LOL>

> I am disappointed that the Army hired physicists from Lawrence Livermore Labs that came from UC Berkeley and didn't have the good sense to analyze their detector properly wasting my time having to re-analyze their poor work and eventually poisoning me with improper procedures of deadly substances.

I'm willing to bet there was some other dumbass involved who didn't follow protocol, and that's why that dumbass was never able to sue them.

> I am disappointed that I was injured and that the local neurologist was so incompetent he could not recognize the symptoms of an extreme concussion and the local emergency doctors did not believe that concussions are a serious matter.

LOL...sure, ER doctors didn't think concussions were a serious matter....

> But my disappointments are life changing while yours leave you stuck in a little hole on the side of the assembly line with nothing better to do all day but post on an internet group.

Wait, I thought I was a production engineer...now I'm sitting on the side of an assembly line with nothing to do? <LOL>?

> I call you guys the stupid 4 not because I believe that any of you are stupid but because you all act stupid and continue to do so in the face of overwhelming evidence of what you're doing.,

Tell us again how a manufacturing engineer is responsible for fixing the mistakes of design engineers? <LOL>

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 12:13:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 2:16:09?PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 4:55:22?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 9:27:07?AM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 11:39:40?AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:21:51?PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > On Sunday, August 13, 2023 at 4:27:14?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

Yes Sir! And I climb up on the roof, flap my arms and fly all the way
to the other side of town.

Which, I guarantee, is just as factual as Tommy's post.

As an example... above he states that he is making $40,000 a month on
his investments and a few days ago he was bragging that his investment
had reached a total of 1 million and he was thinking of taking the
family on a vacation to Hawaii. $40,000 times 12 months is $480,000
which is 48% on his investments annually.

Since 1971 the S&P 500 has delivered an annualized return of 7.58%—or
10.51% with dividends reinvested.

Any further comment is superficial.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 14:53:07 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 1:17:21?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> Inflation is where the money
>> supply is larger than the available goods to buy. The rate at which
>> it expands is very important, but has little to do with whether there
>> is or isn't an inflationary economy.

>More of your pretense about everything. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Janet+Yelolen+she+was+wrong+about+inflation&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwXZ2-xDIytI
>
>When you feel the need to show your ignorance perhaps you should start a new thread entitled "I want to show my stupidity".

I don't care to discuss political or economic issues with you. If you
must change the topic to politics, you can probably find someone else
who is willing to engage in a debate. All I cared about, when I wrote
one sentence about inflation, was that you were wrong when you
introducing the inflation "rate". If Janet Yellen made a different
mistake, it doesn't magically correct your mistake. (Two wrongs do
not make a right).

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 7:42:53 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 14:53:07 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 1:17:21?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> Inflation is where the money
> >> supply is larger than the available goods to buy. The rate at which
> >> it expands is very important, but has little to do with whether there
> >> is or isn't an inflationary economy.
> >More of your pretense about everything. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Janet+Yelolen+she+was+wrong+about+inflation&atb=v366-1&t=chromentp&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwXZ2-xDIytI
> >
> >When you feel the need to show your ignorance perhaps you should start a new thread entitled "I want to show my stupidity".
> I don't care to discuss political or economic issues with you. If you
> must change the topic to politics, you can probably find someone else
> who is willing to engage in a debate. All I cared about, when I wrote
> one sentence about inflation, was that you were wrong when you
> introducing the inflation "rate". If Janet Yellen made a different
> mistake, it doesn't magically correct your mistake. (Two wrongs do
> not make a right).
> --

But many wrongs make a 'Tommy'

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 15:07:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> My life is so disappointing because I am making $40,000 a MONTH in interest.
>

>oh my! now it's $40K in a month! Do we hear 50K for next moth? <LOL> (and you still can't afford a custom steel frame...HAH!)

I don't know if you saw my posting, but I estimated that Tom would
need $4.5 million to generate $40K/month at the current interest rate.
See below:

"$40,000/month, at 2.7% compounded monthly, for 10 years, will require
a principal of $4,500,000."
<https://www.calculator.net/interest-calculator.html?cstartingprinciple=0&cannualaddition=0&cmonthlyaddition=40%2C000&cadditionat1=beginning&cinterestrate=2.7&ccompound=monthly&cyears=10&cmonths=0&ctaxtrate=0&cinflationrate=0&printit=0&x=Calculate#interestresults>

>> on my investments which are now in protected tax free bond funds.
>

>Good for you, earning 2% over ten years - which you can't access without paying a higher tax rate (interest free is only that when you leave it until maturity, dumbass).

That brings up another issue. Tom (and I) are probably not going to
live long enough to enjoy the benefits of a tax free investment. 10
years is the minimum tax free municipal bond offered. There are short
term municipal bonds available, but at the low interest rates, they're
not worth buying:
<https://www.nuveen.com/en-us/mutual-funds/nuveen-short-term-municipal-bond-fund?shareclass=I>
0.54% for 1 year, 1.12% for 5 years.

>Wait - I should be proud of becoming a "production engineer", but I'm ashamed at never having achieved anything? <LOL>

Same here. I failed to produce any children (that I know about).

>> I am disappointed that the Army hired physicists from Lawrence Livermore Labs...

Tom: It's Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. You claimed to
have worked there, but this is the 3rd time you failed to provide the
correct name.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Or we could calculate it the other way - He said he's worth 1.75M recently. We know his house is ~ 800K of that, but lets be generous and assume he is an even 1M$ liquid.

In order to receive 40K in interest in one month on 1M, the annual interest rate on his investment would be 40%!

that's the kind of rate I would expect a drug kingpin to rake in....And he accuses _me_ of being corrupt

[Tom Kunich]

That you're an engineer and that you're married. Want some more? That you hold a real job and aren't living in mommy's basement playing on the computer all day and all night.

[Tom Kunich]

More proof of your financial prowess? Tell everyone here what happens to bonds when the dollar inflates?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

More non-sequiturs....Desperatly grasping for any last shred of dignity you _thought_ you had. At the end of the day, all this boils down to is tommy admitting "no, I'm full of shit and can't produce any evidence that FTP means Full Time Power"

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Why does it matter to you? You're earning 40% on tax free bonds!

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 13:45:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 12:13:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>...I am making $40,000 a MONTH in interest. on my
>>investments which are now in protected tax free bond funds.
>
>Congratulations. Let's see if the numbers work. AAA rated, 10 year,
>tax free municipal bonds are currently paying 2.70% interest:
><https://www.fmsbonds.com/market-yields/>
>
>$40,000/month, at 2.7% compounded monthly, for 10 years, will require
>a principal of $4,500,000.
><https://www.calculator.net/interest-calculator.html?cstartingprinciple=0&cannualaddition=0&cmonthlyaddition=40%2C000&cadditionat1=beginning&cinterestrate=2.7&ccompound=monthly&cyears=10&cmonths=0&ctaxtrate=0&cinflationrate=0&printit=0&x=Calculate#interestresults>
>
>Last time you boasted how much you were worth, it was about $1.75
>million.
>
>03/05/2023
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/JG80Gv6eFz4/m/I5iXXkCRAgAJ>
>"... I am worth a million and 3/4 dollars. Exactly what are you
>worth?"
>
>So, either you robbed a bank for the extra $2.75 million or you're
>lying as usual. Cccam's razor should make the choice easy.

Nope, you've got it all wrong. The best method, called "The Tommy
Method" is just sit down at the computer and type - "I Made a
Million", or whatever "fact" you want to present :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:42:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tell everyone here what happens to bonds when the dollar inflates?

<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/in/investing/how-does-inflation-affect-fixed-income-investments/>
"Bond prices are inversely rated to interest rates. Inflation causes
interest rates to rise, leading to a decrease in value of existing
bonds. During times of high inflation, bonds yielding fixed interest
rates tend to be less attractive."

Do I get a prize?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 10:16:22 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:42:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Tell everyone here what happens to bonds when the dollar inflates?
> <https://www.forbes.com/advisor/in/investing/how-does-inflation-affect-fixed-income-investments/>
> "Bond prices are inversely rated to interest rates. Inflation causes
> interest rates to rise, leading to a decrease in value of existing
> bonds. During times of high inflation, bonds yielding fixed interest
> rates tend to be less attractive."
>
> Do I get a prize?
> --

So tommy constantly complains about how high inflation is (it really isn't so much any more), yet invests in a financial tool known to give a poorer rate of return than other easily accessible alternatives when inflation is high, _and_ locking up his money for ten years.

No wonder he lost money during the Obama years!

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/15/2023 8:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> That brings up another issue. Tom (and I) are probably not going to
> live long enough to enjoy the benefits of a tax free investment. 10
> years is the minimum tax free municipal bond offered. There are short
> term municipal bonds available, but at the low interest rates, they're

> not worth buying...

I actually did well with tax-free muni bond funds for a while. I had
some before I hired my financial advisor to look after my investments.
She talked me into selling those and moving the money into other
investments. A year later, she admitted I'd have been a bit further
ahead if I'd left that money in the bond funds.

It's not that they earn so much; it's that they are free of both state
and federal taxes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 17:42:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 5:39:24?PM UTC-7, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

Dollar inflates? Inflates in value? How do you measure that? Gold, for
instance in Jan 2023 was $1,876.94, in June (6 months later) it was
$1964.82. That's de-flatiron (in value).
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

So is my Roth account. A much better choice.

[AMuzi]

Gold does not fluctuate. Currencies do.

[Tom Kunich]

\When the government changes from your fascist state to a democracy again, I will probably exchange them again. But I will live well into my 90's and from your comments you do not expect to. Either Trump or RFK Jr. are going to be elected and either of them are going to shut down the 4,000 people strong invisible government of the CIA who murdered JFK to maintain their wars.

[Tom Kunich]

I suppose that you can say that and it is most likely true from the perspective of a person holding gold. But what difference does it make to people paid in dollars?

[AMuzi]

Change in value of USD or any currency is readily observed
by the gold exchange rate.