Liebermann the racist POS

[Tom Kunich]

I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.

Gee, I only have to talk to my neighbors to know that. Why is it that he doesn't.

He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables. I guess he knows this by going out into the central valley and actually talking to field workers to discover that it would be hard for an illegal to GET a job working in agriculture because these are practically owned by long term Mexican families, many of who commute between the US and Mexico depending on the picking seasons. Picking fruit and vegetables at the proper time isn't something that farmers know. The farmers know when these things are ABOUT ready and the field workers themselves know ripe from too ripe from not ripe enough. Also perennial crops need to be trimmed with a great deal of knowledge and authority. Old time farmers used to know all about this but modern farmers generally rely upon their field workers. If you had farmers in the family you'd know that;.

So the illegals coming over the border these days are not Mexicans and they are not working in fields but loading trucks and unloading them. Now in California they are driving trucks inside of the state lines but not outside since most states do not issue licenses to illegals. Illegals are cooking all of the food not just in Mexican restaurants but everything else as well from Chinese to Greek restaurants. Women and children are being sold off as slaves; prostitutes and the working capital for pedophiles. Democrats like Biden who was happy to say he took showers with his daughter shows you what people like Liebermann think like.

I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 15:07:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.

You constantly lie and refuse to provide your sources of
misinformation.

"Mexican Labor Rates"
<https://www.ivemsa.com/manufacturing-in-mexico/mexican-labor-rates/>
"the average hourly wage for production operators in Mexico is about
$3.50 (USD) per hour."
"Additionally, for skilled workers like machinists and welders, Mexico
is approximately $6 - 7 (USD) per hour, compared to an average of $16
- $18 (USD) per hour for similar positions in the U.S."

You also answer my question. Where would you prefer to work? In
California, where minimum wage is $15.50/hr or Mexico, where minimum
wage is either $10.71 or $16.13 PER DAY?

>He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables.

That reminds me. Did you see any more busloads of illegal aliens
voting in the last election?
11/04/2021
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/TUUbjBS18Xo/m/AlU5uxk-AQAJ>
"I was the first one to the polls in the morning. When I came out
there was a BUS there that had brought an entire load of illegal
aliens who all had a piece of paper with a name on it they were
supposed to vote under."

You are unworthy of being wished a merry Christmas. Instead, may you
burn in the hell of your own creation. You shall eventually enter
Malebolge, where "those who intentionally misled others for their own
gain by feeding them lies" are barbequed in the 8th circle of Hell.
You also qualify for the 10th circle of Hell, where "falsifiers, those
who attempted to alter things through lies or alchemy, or those who
tried to pass off false things as real things..." are also barbequed:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge#Eighth_Bolgia_(Fraudulent_Counselors)>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge#Tenth_Bolgia_(Falsifiers)>
Before you meet your well deserved demise, please tell me what you've
gained by lying?

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 18:22:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 15:07:30 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.
>
>You constantly lie and refuse to provide your sources of
>misinformation.
>
>"Mexican Labor Rates"
><https://www.ivemsa.com/manufacturing-in-mexico/mexican-labor-rates/>
>"the average hourly wage for production operators in Mexico is about
>$3.50 (USD) per hour."
>"Additionally, for skilled workers like machinists and welders, Mexico
>is approximately $6 - 7 (USD) per hour, compared to an average of $16
>- $18 (USD) per hour for similar positions in the U.S."
>
>You also answer my question. Where would you prefer to work? In
>California, where minimum wage is $15.50/hr or Mexico, where minimum
>wage is either $10.71 or $16.13 PER DAY?
>

You are ignoring the cost of living in California and Mexico. Using
Thailand (as I am more familiar with it then Mexico) Minimum wage is
300 baht a day, although admittedly it is heard to get anyone to work
for that wage and actual minimum is in the 400 - 500 baht range.
But... the cost of a day's food is in the 35 baht per day, per person,
range.

For calculations use $1.00 = 35 baht. So, minimum of $9.00 pay and
$1.00 for food to $14 pay and still $1.00 for food.

Cost of food versus salary from 11% with minimum salary to 7% with the
higher salary.

The net says that the average American spends 10.7% on food.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I got was from a man laughing at Liebermann who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said. Liebermann on a good day wets his pants and doesn't even know it. I'm not even going to turn that killfile off to see what that racist ass has to say because all you have to know is that GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs. What a contemptible fool.

[John B.]

On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 21:49:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.
>>
>> Gee, I only have to talk to my neighbors to know that. Why is it that he doesn't.
>>
>> He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables. I guess he knows this by going out into the central valley and actually talking to field workers to discover that it would be hard for an illegal to GET a job working in agriculture because these are practically owned by long term Mexican families, many of who commute between the US and Mexico depending on the picking seasons. Picking fruit and vegetables at the proper time isn't something that farmers know. The farmers know when these things are ABOUT ready and the field workers themselves know ripe from too ripe from not ripe enough. Also perennial crops need to be trimmed with a great deal of knowledge and authority. Old time farmers used to know all about this but modern farmers generally rely upon their field workers. If you had farmers in the family you'd know that;.
>>
>> So the illegals coming over the border these days are not Mexicans and they are not working in fields but loading trucks and unloading them. Now in California they are driving trucks inside of the state lines but not outside since most states do not issue licenses to illegals. Illegals are cooking all of the food not just in Mexican restaurants but everything else as well from Chinese to Greek restaurants. Women and children are being sold off as slaves; prostitutes and the working capital for pedophiles. Democrats like Biden who was happy to say he took showers with his daughter shows you what people like Liebermann think like.
>>
>> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.
>

>I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I rgot was from a man laughing at Liebermann who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said. Liebermann on a good day wets his pants and doesn't even know it. I'm not even going to turn that killfile off to see what that racist ass has to say because all you have to know is that GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs. What a contemptible fool.

It is a bit more complex then just moving.
GM is investing 1 billion dollars in building new facilities in Mexico
which will probably result in the employment of some 1,500 additional
Mexicans to add to the current 3,500. In essence some 5 thousand jobs
fewer in the U.S.

GM states that wages at the Mexican plants range from $8.97 to $33.05
per day while in the U.S. GM states that they pay workers as much as
$73,000 a year and as much as $21.91 per hour.
The hourly rate amounts to $175.28 per day which is some 5 times the
high end wages in Mexico.

Is it any wonder that U.S. companies are moving overseas.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 12:49:20 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.

No, sparky, it would be _you_ people don't like due to your continued displays of ignorance and racism.

> I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I got was from a man laughing at Liebermann

You really need to stop this ruse of claiming other people send you emails and texts about RBT, no one believes you.

> who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said.

Yes Jeff, tommy really _is_ that stupid. If the previous sentence wasn't proof enough, this ones a doozy:

> GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs.

wow......It boggles the mind to consider how someone like tommy managed to survive into his 70's.

[Lou Holtman]

These are your thoughts at Christmas? Nice.

Lou

[Tim R]

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 6:07:31 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.

This kind of angry rant from someone proud to self proclaim as Christian.

It says more about you than him. But it also sends a message that US Christians are impossible to shame no matter what their behavior.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tommy lives under quite a few delusions, one of which is what true Christian behaviour entails. Another is his interpretation of race and racism - He's actually stated "I'm not white, I'm slavic".

[AMuzi]

Of course. It's the fruition of longstanding national
policy. Or as economists say capital goes where it is
treated best.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, I agree with you completely. Christmas is a time to celebrate the birth of Christ who was foreshadowed by thy the protection of the Jewish people by God. And we should probably add that Jesus is a lesser profit to Islam. Peace and tranquility and forgiveness should be the order of the day. And we have Lieberman telling us that Mexicans are making almost nothing a week. He knows this because from his ivory tower in Capitola he sees all and knows all. So much so that he cannot even read what he himself has cited. The neighbor I have across the street has spent Christmas in Mexico because since all of the criminals have come to the US from Obama and Biden's bills GIVING them a free ride and freedom from prosecution, Mexico has once again become a nice safe place. Perhaps it will remain that way if the common citizens there treat others as equals rather than lower class citizens as Lieberman was just doing.

For the first time in a decade scenes of the real Christmas are missing from his corner lot. The three wise men and the nativity scenes are missing and up and down the block are scenes of Santa Claus bringing presents while Biden's inflation has destroyed everyone's Christmas enjoyment. The old man up the block had a heart attack and died and his kids couldn't wait five minutes before they put his house on the market.

The world is on the starting edge of a depression that will make the 20's look like great times. So I hope that the commies who are going to suffer the most from this like what they have done.

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, do I not have a Christmas spirit being angry at what the Democrats have done and are doing to the middle class who will very soon be the poor? My anger is for THEM and not for me. I can get through this OK and may even profit from it. Every large leftist firm including Wall St. has announced staggering layoffs.

What are you going to do when you can't afford to eat and pay your mortgage?

Is it a sign that Christians aren't Christian if they worry about YOU? Two of my Children have or about to have PhD.s and another runs the office of a legal firm. The last is a store manager of a large chain. They were all taught to like to work. What happens to the 1/3rd of Google who were given jobs doing nothing at all when they are laid off next week? I made sure that my investments are protected. What about you? I'm worth nearly two million now and can live almost entirely on my social security. Can you? Even with my expensive bicycle hobby I own less than $1,600 TOTAL. And I knocked my bank account down to just enough to cover emergencies since the Democrats are now attacking banks which will drive them into bankruptcy.

I suggest that you were never taught anything about religion and you have fallen for the Democrat's teachings that THEY are the only religion and you should look to government instead of to yourself.

[Tom Kunich]

I am afraid that's true. There were too many people living the life of luxury on the government dime. That couldn't last and the warnings fell upon deaf ears. Now the piper must be paid and what do we have? The entire Democrat Party denying it is happening when 2/3rds of CNN are being laid off.

Long ago someone at Facebook canceled my account because I said something entirely innocuous but since I was a known conservative they were looking for something to cancel my account. Now THEY are being fired and replaced by a piece of software that carried their own opinions to the extreme.

All this means is that they are opening the door for a replacement.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/26/2022 11:32 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Long ago someone at Facebook canceled my account because I said something entirely innocuous ...

:-) HAHAHAHA!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Well, by his own admission he was "crazy" for at least part of the
time :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Talking about racism.... wasn't Tommy the lad that was complaining
about the illegal "Spics" running up and down the streets and stealing
his bicycles?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

We're a sensitive nation. We employ the mentally disabled:
https://youtu.be/IML7mq1IpxY

Warning! Bicycle content in the opening.

[Tom Kunich]

It's too bad that John's dementia is getting so bad that he has no memory of truth and only remembers what he can make up as he goes.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yup, he's also the one who couldn't understand why the one black person in his bike club stopped talking to him after he (tom) told a Dave Chappelle joke with the N bomb, then he (tom) blamed it on Obama

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:22:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/26/2022 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 04:44:02 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> > <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 12:49:20 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.
> >>
> >> No, sparky, it would be _you_ people don't like due to your continued displays of ignorance and racism.
> >>
> >>> I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I got was from a man laughing at Liebermann
> >>
> >> You really need to stop this ruse of claiming other people send you emails and texts about RBT, no one believes you.
> >>
> >>> who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said.
> >>
> >> Yes Jeff, tommy really _is_ that stupid. If the previous sentence wasn't proof enough, this ones a doozy:
> >>
> >>> GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs.
> >>
> >> wow......It boggles the mind to consider how someone like tommy managed to survive into his 70's.
> >
> > Well, by his own admission he was "crazy" for at least part of the
> > time :-)
> >
> We're a sensitive nation. We employ the mentally disabled:
>
>

Tom's resume is proof of that.

[Tim R]

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 11:24:58 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 5:14:24 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It says more about you than him. But it also sends a message that US Christians are impossible to shame no matter what their behavior.
> Tim, do I not have a Christmas spirit being angry at what the Democrats have done and are doing to the middle class who will very soon be the poor? My anger is for THEM and not for me.

It would appear you demonstrate Christian values only when it's easy to do so - as soon as you let someone make you angry they go out the window. You're certainly in good company - but Jesus didn't promise your faith would be easy. Time to work on that.

Secondly, if you define yourself by what makes you indignant - and I'm speaking in general here, not just to Tom, but he may be the poster child in this group - then you are owning a lot of unnecessary misery. Define yourself by what you show gratitude for, and it goes a long way to make you happier.

[Frank Krygowski]

Good advice.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me Tim, where did you learn Christian values and what they are?

[Catrike Rider]

Attempting to define one self to others is a wasted effort, most often
done by those with type B personalities. It's better to simply be what
you are. Let the cards fall where ever they fall and let others
believe whatever they want to believe.

[Tom Kunich]

Even Christ in anger cast the money lenders from the Temple. And Tim wants to define Christian values when he doesn't even know what they are. Do you suppose he ever set foot in the door of a church? I was educated by nuns.

[John B.]

So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
number is in the thousands.

Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 07:42:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I regret the addition of the additional phrase " in started in 12
began" in the above post.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, December 28, 2022 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> So tell us, just what are "Christian Values"?
> Do you mean like when the "Christian" conquered Jerusalem and killed
> every person in the city. It was said that blood ran ankle deep in the
> streets? Or maybe it was the Christian Papal legate and Cistercian
> abbot Arnaud Amalric ordered "Kill them all; let God sort them out",
> Or maybe the Inquisitions, which was officially established in 1229
> and ended in started in 12 began in about 1184 and finally 1908 the
> name of the Congregation became "The Sacred Congregation of the Holy
> Office", which in 1965 further changed to "Congregation for the
> Doctrine of the Faith", as retained to the present day.
> How many did the Inquisition kill? Nobody knows but certainly the
> number is in the thousands.
>
> Yes, tell us more about your "Christian Values".

I think it's obvious that Christian values have evolved over the centuries. They've
not always been the same.

Not that I'm trying to defend Tom, mind you.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Of course they have. When I was a lad it was a sin to eat meat on
Friday and if confessed you were down on your knees with 10 Hail
Mary's and a half dozen Our Fathers.

Today? Never mind, eat at Mac D's on Friday if you want to.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

"Christian" values are as mutable as holidays. When the presbyterian church of the USA was created in 1789, they adopted the Westminster Confession of Faith, but they made a few changes removing some "sins" from the original Church of England list. Interesting that a sin can become nullified by the whim of man. Notably, the last edition of the WCF removed the identification of the Pope as the antichrist. Not because the pope has suddenly became smiled upon by the version of god the american presbyterians worshiped, but for political reasons (similar to why the Mormons officially changed their position on polygamy). Interesting that the antichrist suddenly disappears by the whim of man. (I'm not defending catholicism mind you, just making a point about religious doctrine, The catholics are no saints in this regard). This of course brings us to https://youtu.be/ANNX_XiuA78

But lets not digress. The point was where tommy gets his "christian" values. He claims it was from nuns...um...ok.

I don't need to remind the regulars, but for anyone who hasn't been paying attention, these nuns apparently imparted such "christian" values as threatening violence against people for being told to shut up, and advocating the mass murder of homosexuals. IOW - tommy's authority on religious values are as suspect as his authority on any other issue - entirely dismissible.

[Tim R]

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.

But, but, but..............................

Puzzled.

Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.

And yet.....................................

(Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)

Mark 12:30-31
New International Version
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Those are what I consider Christian values.

[Lou Holtman]

I was raised Catholic but man if I come across the priest that 'educated'/indoctrinated us in elementary school I will knock him down. What a bastard was that.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 9:07:05 AM UTC-5, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.
> But, but, but..............................
>
> Puzzled.
>
> Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.

Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.

Some of the kindest most humanitarian people I've ever met were atheists, then we have have the tommys of the world.

>
> And yet.....................................
>
> (Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)

Why is that parenthetical? More to the point, it does brightly illuminate the evangelical communities embrace of donald trump. A womanizing charlatan considered by those creeps to be a 'godsend' as if he ever had any clue what the message of christ means.

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society leading to education and the industrial revolution.

Just 15 years ago non-religious people did not even THINK that abortion was moral save in extremis. Now if you DON'T believe in abortion AFTER birth you are an evil religious bigot.

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:07:05 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 6:10:13 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > "Christian" values are as mutable as holidays.
>> But, but, but..............................
>>
>> Puzzled.
>>
>> Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
>>
>> And yet.....................................
>>
>> (Conservative Christians in the US seem to have become completely utilitarian, believing that ends always justify means, and willing to accept any level of immorality if it benefits them. For example, if a politican is anti-abortion any level of illegal or immoral behavior is fine.)
>>
>> Mark 12:30-31
>> New International Version
>> 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Those are what I consider Christian values.
>

Well, taking your definition of the second commandment then you are
obviously not a Christian as you have insulted, lied about and
insulted everyone posting on this site except got your Bum Boy the
Afro-Irishman.

>Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society leading to education and the industrial revolution.
>

Now then Dummy, Guttenberg didn't translate the bible, he printed "the
Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible". the first English language of
the bible seems to be by William Tyndale in the 1500's.

>Just 15 years ago non-religious people did not even THINK that abortion was moral save in extremis. Now if you DON'T believe in abortion AFTER birth you are an evil religious bigot.

What is an "abortion after birth"? Is this some new fad that has
become popular in the U.S.?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[William Crowell]

"I have no need of that hypothesis" - French mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace to Napoleon in 1814.

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 20:43:32 -0800 (PST), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"I have no need of that hypothesis" - French mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace to Napoleon in 1814.

And Napoleon replied "Ah, it is a fine hypothesis; it explains many
things."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tim R]

On Thursday, December 29, 2022 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Because, we are told by "American Christians" that without God there can be no absolute basis for morality. Atheists cannot possibly be moral creatures, there can't possibly be any method to tell right from wrong.
> Most American christians don't feel that way, but there is an extremely loud and offensive minority that could give non-americans that impression. Besides that, it's not just _American_ christians, but aside from a few notable exceptions the aforementioned offensive minority are by and large the worst offenders.
>

Apologies. I am using an ideosyncratic definition of "American Christian," which is the reason for the quotes, but I didn't explain it.

American Christianity is a term that has been used to refer to a rather strange brand that mingles religion, conservative politics, and capitalism. It is distinguished from Traditional Christianity (mainstream denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.) and Liberal Christianity (some Episcopals, UUs, liberal leaning portions of the other mainstreams). Catholics until recently would have been distinct from American Christianity since they retained traditional values while focusing on abortion, but in the last couple of elections they could not resist temptation and became utilitarian and political.

American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.

For proof just check out Patheos.

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 2:11:12 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/26/2022 2:05 AM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 21:49:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 3:07:31 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> I am told that POS Liebermann has been exercising his usual racist bullshit. He doesn't seem to know that the average working wage in Mexico is $10/hr or 200 Pesos/Hr.
> >>>
> >>> Gee, I only have to talk to my neighbors to know that. Why is it that he doesn't.
> >>>
> >>> He also believes that Mexicans can only work picking fruit and vegetables. I guess he knows this by going out into the central valley and actually talking to field workers to discover that it would be hard for an illegal to GET a job working in agriculture because these are practically owned by long term Mexican families, many of who commute between the US and Mexico depending on the picking seasons. Picking fruit and vegetables at the proper time isn't something that farmers know. The farmers know when these things are ABOUT ready and the field workers themselves know ripe from too ripe from not ripe enough. Also perennial crops need to be trimmed with a great deal of knowledge and authority. Old time farmers used to know all about this but modern farmers generally rely upon their field workers. If you had farmers in the family you'd know that;.
> >>>
> >>> So the illegals coming over the border these days are not Mexicans and they are not working in fields but loading trucks and unloading them. Now in California they are driving trucks inside of the state lines but not outside since most states do not issue licenses to illegals. Illegals are cooking all of the food not just in Mexican restaurants but everything else as well from Chinese to Greek restaurants. Women and children are being sold off as slaves; prostitutes and the working capital for pedophiles. Democrats like Biden who was happy to say he took showers with his daughter shows you what people like Liebermann think like.

> >>>
> >>> I said that people don't like Liebermann because of his ignorance and racism. But I guess he continues to bring people to the point of vomiting.
> >>

> >> I just got back from dinner with the family. One of the emails I rgot was from a man laughing at Liebermann who said that I wasn't giving any references and then gave a site that proved everything I said. Liebermann on a good day wets his pants and doesn't even know it. I'm not even going to turn that killfile off to see what that racist ass has to say because all you have to know is that GM moved production to Mexico because it halved their labor costs. Anyone with a clear head would know that means that labor costs are that close to US costs. What a contemptible fool.
> >
> > It is a bit more complex then just moving.
> > GM is investing 1 billion dollars in building new facilities in Mexico
> > which will probably result in the employment of some 1,500 additional
> > Mexicans to add to the current 3,500. In essence some 5 thousand jobs
> > fewer in the U.S.
> >
> > GM states that wages at the Mexican plants range from $8.97 to $33.05
> > per day while in the U.S. GM states that they pay workers as much as
> > $73,000 a year and as much as $21.91 per hour.
> > The hourly rate amounts to $175.28 per day which is some 5 times the
> > high end wages in Mexico.
> >
> > Is it any wonder that U.S. companies are moving overseas.
> >
> Of course. It's the fruition of longstanding national
> policy. Or as economists say capital goes where it is
> treated best.

>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

Before it was the result of "national policy", it was the result of *labour policy*, and always it was the result of *labour union policy and behaviour*. Take your pick about who is most guilty.
>
I was in England, doing research at Cambridge, when the leader of the National Union of Coalminers, Arthur Scargill, a full-frontal Communist, tried to bring down the government. Even the dead couldn't be buried, and I paid blackmarket prices for wood to keep our baby warm since the electricity kept cutting out, though fortunately our house had fireplaces. I thought seriously of jumping off a sinking ship and driving down to our house at Juan-le-pins in the South of France which was in the process of being rebuilt with some windows not yet installed but my Citroen SM wasn't reliable (eventually I owned three just to have one that was running...) and the Volvo Estate I had on order was weeks away from delivery, even after I said I'd pay a premium and take whatever colour and options they had for immediate delivery. Then Lord Kahn told me Mrs Thatcher was planning an "ill-considered defiant response" and I decided that if a woman I thought a harmless mouse when she was in Heath's Cabinet was stiffening her spine, I'd stay and watch the miracle, and after her definitely defiant speech, the ship was no longer sinking; poor Arthur Scargill had turned the lady mouse into a nutcutter. Before she finished speaking, I put a thousand pounds on her surviving at my bookmaker at around thirty to one. (For the scale of my winnings at the time, consider that I paid around Stg5000 for the best of the big Volvos with all the best trimmings, admittedly "on the diplomatic" -- I was travelling on a diplomatic passport -- so that I didn't have to pay about half that much again in punitive British special taxes on big cars.) Actually, I was one of the few who bet on her. If I'd waited until the end of her speech, I could have gotten substantially better odds, because the commentariat was whining that she had been "provocative" and "unnecessarily abrasive" and talking heads on the BBC were opining that she'd be gone by end of the week. Years later, when I saw the Dirty Harry movie in which Clint Eastwood delivers the immortal line, "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one." I though of those utterly wrong commentators on the BBC on the day Mrs Thatcher initiated the disintegration of union power in Great Britain.
>
Andre Jute
Gotta crawl around on the carpet hunting a crucial piece of a watch movement I dropped.
>

[Tom Kunich]

For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking. If you don't have religion that is your business and you wlll have to pay the price. But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I find it absolutely astonishing that Liebermann continues to make racist comment safter another and the stupid five who told me that as a Slav that grew up in a completely desegregated neighborhood and school I was racist and never a peep out of these same asses about their own comments.

[Lou Holtman]

Why do you have to pay a price if you are not religious? Can’t you not be just a good person?

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:56:04 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> But don't argue that fruits and nuts can "prove" something.

And yet here you are, every day, all day

[Tom Kunich]

I thought that I cover that. Christianity sets an absolute line of good and evil. Society does not. LGBTQ behavior is absolutely forbidden but society today actually revers it. Doctors are performing sex change operations on minors and courts are protecting these doctors from the child's parents. Babies are being born alive and then left to die by the doctors that delivered them. How do YOU judged good behavior?

[John B.]

"If you don't have religion"?

What does that mean? Perhaps, like you, you profess to be a whatever
it is that you claim to be, but totally ignore the fundamental tenets.

The commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy
neighbour" immediately comes to mind here.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 09:02:31 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

"that Liebermann continues to make racist comment safter another"??

A reference here would be greatly appreciated.

Or is this yet another example of your fevered imagination?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

"Christianity sets an absolute line of good and evil"???

You mean like the Crusaders capturing Jerusalem in 1099 and massacring
every man, woman and child in the city until the streets ran ankle
deep with the blood?

Or perhaps the Inquisition? Estimates of the number killed by the
Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in
1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are
convinced that millions died..

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tim R]

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 11:56:04 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> > American Christians by and large now believe the 2cnd amendment, benefit to shareholders, and protection of religious rights are all Biblical.
> >
> > For proof just check out Patheos.
> For "proof" check out an internet site? Please tell me that you were joking.

Alas, not joking.

Patheos is a religious site with a huge conservative Christian presence, along with some diversity. I use it as an example of a place you can find lots of discussion between Christians which supports my arguments. There are probably many similar ones out there. Of course, if you live in a small bubble, you will feel Christian beliefs are limited to what you've heard from the people you know, maybe the ones in your congregation - if you belong to one. (frankly I doubt that - but then you elected a president who had not been inside a church since age 7 but proudly proclaimed his faith and earned your vote, so who knows? )

Love your neighbor, provided they are of the same skin color and politics as you. Christianity then becomes easy.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 06:30:58 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>"that Liebermann continues to make racist comments after another"??
>A reference here would be greatly appreciated.
>Or is this yet another example of your fevered imagination?

Thanks, but I think it might be better to leave things alone. By now,
anyone reading RBT has recognized that most everything that Tom writes
is a lie, a mistake or is totally wrong. If they want the truth, it
is easy enough to simply believe that the opposite of what Tom writes
is the truth. That's much easier than confronting Tom with
contradictory evidence and requests for substantiation which usually
have no effect.





--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 19:37:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 06:30:58 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>"that Liebermann continues to make racist comments after another"??
>>A reference here would be greatly appreciated.
>>Or is this yet another example of your fevered imagination?
>
>Thanks, but I think it might be better to leave things alone. By now,
>anyone reading RBT has recognized that most everything that Tom writes
>is a lie, a mistake or is totally wrong. If they want the truth, it
>is easy enough to simply believe that the opposite of what Tom writes
>is the truth. That's much easier than confronting Tom with
>contradictory evidence and requests for substantiation which usually
>have no effect.

"almost everything"??

You are being too kind Sir!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 10:40:00 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tim, where do you get the idea that anyone said non-believers couldn't be moral? The4y can but their morality comes from their own opinions which can change over time. Christian morals come from the Bible and that not only doesn't change but the translation of the Bible by Guttenberg dramatically changed society leading to education and the industrial revolution.

Is the person who wrote the following a moral Christian?

09/14/2022
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/564R3TRrAQAJ
"Assassination is an entirely different matter. Public officials must
be out in the public so killing them is fairly easy. Not one of those
armored limos could sustain an antitank weapon. And with Biden pouring
thousands of them into the Ukraine one of them could easily go
missing. Wouldn't be justice if someone put an antitank rocket into
Biden's car?"

09/17/2022
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/kkdSlEftBQAJ
"I would love to meet Seaton. It would require about 20 seconds to
break the jaw and leave him crying like the baby he is. Threats aren't
particularly manly but when you have creatures like the stupid six it
is difficult not to inform them of what the real world will do to them
sooner or later."

If you lived in Israel at the time of Jesus, here's a list of 613
commandments by which you should run your life. Kindly remember that
Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi:
<https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Taryag/taryag.html>
<https://www.jewfaq.org/613_commandments>
Note that the various books of the Christian bible were assembled
starting in about AD 50 and the various interpretations were not
judged until AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea>
People in Jesus's time would not know how to "be moral" in accordance
to the later Christian bible and would more likely follow the 613
commandments and Torah. There were also an assortment of different
bibles, written by authors with divergent points of view, making it
more difficult to "be moral".

Your religion is a guide for how you are expected to act, not a shield
to protect you from the results of your actions.

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:55:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Does someone who insists that "the translation of the Bible by
Guttenberg" actually know anything about his religion? And since
Guttenberg didn't translate the bible can he be responsible for
"changing society leading to education and the industrial revolution".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible
"The Gutenberg Bible, an edition of the Vulgate, contains the Latin
version of the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. It is
mainly the work of St Jerome who began his work on the translation in
380 AD, with emendations from the Parisian Bible tradition, and
further divergences"

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 13:32:28 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
one approves of that party's shameful racist history.

From my perspective, most religions, and the cultures around them,
have been used as tools to achieve mankind's ultimate evil, which is
to subjugate and control.

When asked, I identify myself as a Christian, not because I obey
Christianity's teachings, but because I find most of those teachings
comply with my own moral values and because my agnosticism doesn't
require acceptance.

[Tom Kunich]

Do you mean like assuming that all Hispanics work in the fields? Now indeed, Santa Cruz is largely white in the middle class areas, but making racist assumptions are still racist assumptions

[Tim R]

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
> Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
> not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
> the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
> one approves of that party's shameful racist history.

I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.

I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, Christianity hasn't changed. That people living in a vicious world were forced to do is something else. Tell me, at ANY time so you believe that Christian Germans believed in the rantings of Hitler? Or perhaps like Krygowski you believe that Christianity is an expression of communism and the murder of millions nothing more than an unfortunate incident?

Unless you are a Christian exactly how are you judging what a Christian is?

[John B.]

"of communism and the murder of millions"???

Err TOMMY! The U.S. has been at war, or military intervention for 225
out of 243 years since 1776. Some 92% of it's history. (as of January
09, 2020).
How many people do you think that they have killed?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tim R]

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:23:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 9:00:02 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 5:30:40 AM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > Thankfully, most modern Christian ideologies have evolved past
> > > Christianity's bloody past. IMO, calling one's self a Christian does
> > > not mean that one approves and celebrates the abhorrent things done in
> > > the name of Christianity as does calling one self a Democrat mean that
> > > one approves of that party's shameful racist history.
> > I agree. What is acceptable to Christians has matured over the centuries, for the most part, following the changing ethics of the civilization and culture.
> >
> > I do think there was a huge step backwards when US politicians realized they could benefit from an alliance with conservative religion. This has had a devastating effect on the integrity of Christians. You simply can't mix the two without causing great harm.
> Tim, Christianity hasn't changed.

Er, which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity have not changed to adapt to a change in culture?

Which of the 10,000+ variations of Christianity did not change their beliefs and practices when they aligned with conservative politics?

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 06:17:05 -0800 (PST), Tim R

I don't know how you define "conservative politics," but I believe
that here in the USA many, who call themselves Christians do not refer
to themselves as political conservatives, and would prefer not to be
labeled as such.

[Andre Jute]

Wow! I nearly did myself a damage there laughing so hard. Can you count, Slow Johnny? There are nine fingers pointing at you when you point at Tom.
>

[Tom Kunich]

Decrying some nut job using the Bible to "prove" the Earth is flat is not Christianity. Pretending that somehow there are various shades of Christianity misses the mark entirely. You can read the bible yourself and understand the gist of it. You don't need a priest or a pope or a preacher to explain it to you.

[Tom Kunich]

John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/1/2023 12:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> You can read the bible yourself and understand the gist of it. You don't need a priest or a pope or a preacher to explain it to you.

That's very simplistic thinking.

Tom, you have a habit of imagining you know at least as much as people
who have devoted their lives and educations to any given subject.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
language alone.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 09:04:20 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

But which bible (I asked you that before) as there are something like
60 versions of the Christian Bible in the English language alone, and
even something so simple as the "Ten Commandments" vary from version
to version.
https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/ten-commandments-bible-translations.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tim R]

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of way.

I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but more explicitly.

"he will know it in the most personal way because he is going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd finished his sentence.

You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe, and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>language alone.

I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>

[John B.]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>>language alone.
>
>I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>

O.K.... I didn't count them either so lets say, "A whole bunch!"

Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
there different versions or interpretations of?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

But, Timothy, now by deceitfully planting words he didn't speak in Tom's mouth, you're condemning poor Slow Johnny to the eternal flames in hell. What authority have you for that unfair disposition of even an obnoxious shortass? Tom didn't do it -- because he knows better -- you did it all on your own. Have you considered, or are you merely ignorant of the third option: if Slow Johnny is a Catholic, he could serve a millennium or two in Purgatory, and thus purge (eternal bulimia?) his manifest and multitudinous vicious sins? On this evidence you are not only guilty of what you accuse Tom of, but far more guilty. Shame on you!
>
Andre Jute
The Lord made me so handsome to zap all you atrocious sinners something terrible.
>

[AMuzi]

More consistent than most at least.

Rigorously transcribed by hand such that a one-letter copy
error causes the entire piece to be destroyed and a new one
started which is why a Torah is so incredibly valuable. Few
human exploits are done under as rigorous a regime:

https://aish.com/48969731/

Jack Welch made his name with 'six-sigma' QC. Torah is at
another level!

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14, Jesus said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” And that means that you ignore that at your own peril. Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have never read the Bible does you no justice.

[Tom Kunich]

The Bible has many books and the variations due to including excluding those that religious leaders have worried may confuse people in the New Testament do not change the meaning of the Bible in any way.

[AMuzi]

On 1/2/2023 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:40:54 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/1/2023 10:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:36:43 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But which bible? There are something like 60 versions in the English
>>>>> language alone.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't count them but it looks like more than 60:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations>
>>>
>>> O.K.... I didn't count them either so lets say, "A whole bunch!"
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
>>> there different versions or interpretations of?
>>>
>> More consistent than most at least.
>>
>> Rigorously transcribed by hand such that a one-letter copy
>> error causes the entire piece to be destroyed and a new one
>> started which is why a Torah is so incredibly valuable. Few
>> human exploits are done under as rigorous a regime:
>>
>> https://aish.com/48969731/
>>
>> Jack Welch made his name with 'six-sigma' QC. Torah is at
>> another level!

> The Bible has many books and the variations due to including excluding those that religious leaders have worried may confuse people in the New Testament do not change the meaning of the Bible in any way.
>

Torah is one thing. An unique thing among human works actually.

The various iterations versions and compilations of the
Christian bibles are quite another:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/dating-the-oldest-new-testament-christian-manuscripts/

Texas Governor Miriam 'Ma' Ferguson opined, "If English was
good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for Texas.' You
don't want to make that same mistake, right?

[Frank Krygowski]

So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and inconsistencies in
the four gospels? Especially the differences between John and the three
earlier synoptic gospels?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 1/2/2023 11:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/2/2023 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-8,
>> timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5,
>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> John does that continually. He doesn't seem to know that
>>>> you only need to read the Bible yourself just for what
>>>> it is and not for what you want to "prove" with it. But
>>>> in the end he will know it in the most personal sort of
>>>> way.
>>> I will finish your statement in the way you intended, but
>>> more explicitly.
>>>
>>> "he will know it in the most personal way because he is
>>> going to be tortured in hell for all eternity and that
>>> fills me with glee, " said Tom, or would have if he'd
>>> finished his sentence.
>>>
>>> You are entitled to your position but it makes me cringe,
>>> and does not make your version of religion seem inviting.
>>
>> Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14,
>> Jesus said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth
>> and the life. No one comes to the Father except through
>> me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as

>> well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.â€

>> And that means that you ignore that at your own peril.
>> Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have never
>> read the Bible does you no justice.
>
> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and
> inconsistencies in the four gospels? Especially the
> differences between John and the three earlier synoptic
> gospels?
>

And after that assignment, start in on reconciling
contradictions within the various works of Karl Marx,
founder of another religion.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank is an absolute expert at translating Ancient Greek and Ancient Latin and hence can positively tell you that there are differences in the absolute meaning of the gospels.

[Tom Kunich]

There was a comment from the Nuns I was taught by that there were some 11 additional books in the New Testament that were left out either due to repetition or being so difficult to transcribe into Latin (and then into English) could be too hard to understand so the Vatican from whence the New Testament came, decided to not include them.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 4:09:47 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> There was a comment from the Nuns I was taught by that there were some 11 additional books in the New Testament that were left out either due to repetition or being so difficult to transcribe into Latin (and then into English) could be too hard to understand so the Vatican from whence the New Testament came, decided to not include them.

AFAIK, nobody thinks the Vatican is "from whence the New Testament came." Most of it was originally
written in Greek.

Have you read much about the history and analysis of the New Testament since you were in high school?

There's information out there that your nuns might have decided was too hard for kids to understand.
There's information out there that the nuns themselves probably didn't understand. Some people
take this stuff very seriously, enough so that they devote their lives to studying it. There certainly
has been progress in knowledge since you sat in front of a classroom teacher.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

>> >> well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.鈥

>> >> And that means that you ignore that at your own peril.
>> >> Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have never
>> >> read the Bible does you no justice.
>> >
>> > So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and
>> > inconsistencies in the four gospels? Especially the
>> > differences between John and the three earlier synoptic
>> > gospels?
>> >
>> And after that assignment, start in on reconciling
>> contradictions within the various works of Karl Marx,
>> founder of another religion.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

>Frank is an absolute expert at translating Ancient Greek and Ancient Latin and hence can positively tell you that there are differences in the absolute meaning of the gospels.

Well Tommy, I don' know whether Frank can translate Greek or not, but
I do know that the four gospels Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, were not
written by those who names were used and the earliest was written
between 60 and 100 years after Christ died.

The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, referred to as the synoptic
Gospels because they include many of the same stories,
stand in contrast to John, whose content is largely distinct.
If three Gospels all tell essentially the same thing and one is
different then which was correct?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

There were certainly religious writing that were not included in the
"Bible" and the number varies depending on who is writing the article,
see https://simple-faith.net/books-left-out-of-the-bible/

The Council of Hippo, held in north Africa in AD 393, a group of
church leaders recognized a list of books that they believed to be
scripture. Later, the Council of Carthage affirmed that decision in AD
397.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 11:51:37 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Out of curiosity is the entire Torah the same in all versions? Or are
>there different versions or interpretations of?

Andrew already provided an accurate answer. I'll add a little detail.

The Sefer Torah is copied by scribes, by hand, with a quill pen, as
close to an exact copy of the original Torah. Sefar means "book".
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sefer_Torah>
The process is rigid and complicated.
"Process of copying the Old Testament by Jewish Scribes"
<https://scottmanning.com/content/process-of-copying-the-old-testament-by-jewish-scribes/>

<https://stamscribes.com/commission-new-torah-scroll/>

The destruction of a Torah scroll, if any mistakes are found, is not a
simple process. Some types of mistakes are tolerated. The rule of
thumb is up to 3 mistakes which do not affect the meaning (such as
word spaces and accents) are tolerated:
<https://outorah.org/p/5442/>
If perfection ware strictly enforced, I suspect that there would not
be any sane Torah scribes remaining.

New scrolls are $30,000 to $100,000. The parchment alone is about
$8,000. More detail:
<http://www.alltorahscrolls.com/new-torahs.htm>
"The Torah has 304,805 letters 245 columns and 60 sections of
parchment. A SOFER WRITES AROUND 1 TO 2 COLUMNS A DAY! When
completed, the Torah sections are computer-checked for spelling errors
and then sewn together."

Used Torah scrolls on eBay:
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=sefer+torah&_sop=16>

I once walked into a temple do deal with a rabbinical court issue on
behalf of a family member in Israel. In a side room was a scribe
carefully copying a scroll. There were signs demanding distance,
silence, and no distractions. I watched for about 30 minutes. He
never stopped, maintained a constant pace, and concentrated on the
task with considerable intensity.

Note that such perfection is only expected from Torahs used in the
temple for ritual purposes. There are printed and bound Torahs in
book form for mundane purposes such as Torah study, holiday rituals
outside of the temple, annotation, and academic purposes.

There are also version of the Torah in different languages. For
example, in English:
<https://reformjudaism.org/learning/torah-study/english-translations-torah-portions>
Obviously, there are variations in the translations. There are also
several character styles.

[John B.]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2023 18:04:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

When you say "temple" does this imply that each Synagogue has a hand
written copy of the Torah?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 10:06:08 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>When you say "temple" does this imply that each Synagogue has a hand
>written copy of the Torah?

I should have written synagogue instead of temple. As the terms are
applied today, a temple is a sacred place where worshipers of any
religion may worship, while a synagogue is specific to where Jews go
to worship. The meanings have become muddled over the centuries. I
tend to use temple because it's easier to spell. In the US, the
official names all start with "Temple", not synagogue, because the
building is used for other activities besides worship. I believe
that's also to indicate that anyone is welcome.

This might help:
"Difference Between Temple and Synagogue" (Aug 29, 2011)
<https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-temple-and-vs-synagogue/>

Sorry, I don't know if a Torah is required for a synagogue and I
didn't have any luck Googling for an answer. I suspect it is
required. There are other forms of the Torah which I believe could be
used if a Sefer Torah is unavailable, such as when the local tyrant
tries to confiscate it:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash_(Judaism)>
Note that most US temples have more than one Sefer Torah, which during
some occasions are literally paraded around the congregation.

For special occasions, usually outside of the temple, it is possible
to rent a Sefer Torah and a suitable ark (cabinet for storing the
Torah when not in use):
<https://www.google.com/search?q=torah+rental>

I'll let you know if I find a definitive answer.

[John B.]

Your "rental reference" refers to Bar and Bat Mitzvah ceremonies so I
assume that either the Synagogue, which seems to be the common term in
the U.S., must have the document or is it common to rent one?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Eric Pozharski]

with <3cr6rhdm75uefi58a...@4ax.com> John B wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 13:09:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 10:46:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/2/2023 11:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/2/2023 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-8,
>>>>> timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

*SKIP*

>>>>> Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14, Jesus
>>>>> said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
>>>>> No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know
>>>>> me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him

>>>>> and have seen him.†And that means that you ignore that at

>>>>> your own peril. Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have
>>>>> never read the Bible does you no justice.
>>>> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and
>>>> inconsistencies in the four gospels? Especially the differences
>>>> between John and the three earlier synoptic gospels?
>>> And after that assignment, start in on reconciling contradictions
>>> within the various works of Karl Marx, founder of another religion.

>>Frank is an absolute expert at translating Ancient Greek and Ancient
>>Latin and hence can positively tell you that there are differences in
>>the absolute meaning of the gospels.

> Well Tommy, I don' know whether Frank can translate Greek or not, but
> I do know that the four gospels Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, were not
> written by those who names were used and the earliest was written
> between 60 and 100 years after Christ died.

(Disclaimer, not even close to be scholar, just another wikipedia
reader.) Correction, "gospels were probably written between AD 66 and
110" would be "35 and 80 years after Chirst died". Thus, for one..two
generations works in question have been an oral tradition.

> The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, referred to as the synoptic
> Gospels because they include many of the same stories, stand in
> contrast to John, whose content is largely distinct. If three Gospels
> all tell essentially the same thing and one is different then which
> was correct?

To put it into perspective, which Hansel and Gretel is correct? This is
closest to list of hansel-and-gretels I've found (wikipedia has realy
failed me on this one):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_based_on_Hansel_and_Gretel

p.s. My favored is 'Hoodwinked Too! Hoods vs. Evil', just in case.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

[John B.]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 09:12:32 +0000, Eric Pozharski
<why...@pozharski.name> wrote:

>with <3cr6rhdm75uefi58a...@4ax.com> John B wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 13:09:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 10:46:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/2/2023 11:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/2/2023 12:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-8,
>>>>>> timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 12:04:22 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>*SKIP*
>>>>>> Tim, what you chose to believe is your choice In John 14, Jesus
>>>>>> said to His disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
>>>>>> No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know
>>>>>> me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him

>>>>>> and have seen him.ā? And that means that you ignore that at

>>>>>> your own peril. Inventing words to put in my mouth when you have
>>>>>> never read the Bible does you no justice.
>>>>> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and
>>>>> inconsistencies in the four gospels? Especially the differences
>>>>> between John and the three earlier synoptic gospels?
>>>> And after that assignment, start in on reconciling contradictions
>>>> within the various works of Karl Marx, founder of another religion.
>>>Frank is an absolute expert at translating Ancient Greek and Ancient
>>>Latin and hence can positively tell you that there are differences in
>>>the absolute meaning of the gospels.
>
>> Well Tommy, I don' know whether Frank can translate Greek or not, but
>> I do know that the four gospels Mathew, Mark, Luke and John, were not
>> written by those who names were used and the earliest was written
>> between 60 and 100 years after Christ died.
>
>(Disclaimer, not even close to be scholar, just another wikipedia
>reader.) Correction, "gospels were probably written between AD 66 and
>110" would be "35 and 80 years after Chirst died". Thus, for one..two
>generations works in question have been an oral tradition.
>

Yes, that is correct. although in mitigation nobody actually knows
when Christ was born :-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 17:46:04 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Embellishment has always been a problem for serious historians.
Arguments over the stories about historical figures are seldom
resolved. One of the things I believe to be "true fact" is that there
is much we humans do not know.

[Tim R]

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 12:46:40 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and inconsistencies in
> the four gospels? Especially the differences between John and the three
> earlier synoptic gospels?
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Just a little nitpick. There are not really "the four gospels." There are four modern canonical gospels.

There are around 20 more still existing, many found in the Nag Hammadi scrolls. Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels is a good source. I have read them all. They are interesting reading and offer some insight into the culture and beliefs of the early Christian community. It's also obvious why most don't fit well with our modern outlook and didn't become canonical.

The exception of course is the Gospel of Thomas. During the early church there were five accepted gospels, not four; the other 20 or so were probably all lesser known. (The four being Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thomas, and John.) There are scholars that believe John was actually written as a response to Thomas, disagreeing with it, and having read both that position makes sense to me.

Total left turn: my personal opinion is you really only need one book, James. That one explains how we are to live very succinctly.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I often heard criticisms that Catholicism should be more appropriately named Paulinism. Tangentially, read Live from Golgotha by Gore Vidal - interesting take on Paul, and even some fun digs at Mary Baker Eddy.

[Tom Kunich]

John never bothered to read the Bible. He is not a Christian and only uses Google to look up things because he likes to look like an authority so that he can treat you badly. He has absolutely no understanding of oral tradition or of how accurate down to even the pronunciation it is. 80 years or 160 years was insufficient for the words of the saints to be misunderstood and the translations of the Greek to Latin introduced far more errors than the oral tradition.

John has the habit of talking about things he hasn't an inkling of knowledge of.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/2/2023 4:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 10:46:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/2/2023 11:46 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and
>>> inconsistencies in the four gospels? Especially the
>>> differences between John and the three earlier synoptic
>>> gospels?
>>>
>> And after that assignment, start in on reconciling
>> contradictions within the various works of Karl Marx,
>> founder of another religion.
>> --

> Frank is an absolute expert at translating Ancient Greek and Ancient Latin and hence can positively tell you that there are differences in the absolute meaning of the gospels.

I never claimed to be an expert at those languages. One does not need to
be such an expert to understand the Gospels' discrepancies.

One does have to keep learning, though, which requires a willingness to
learn. You've never shown much willingness to learn.

But back to my question, please. What ARE your thoughts on the
differences and conflicts in those Gospels? (Surely you don't need me to
provide examples, right?)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/3/2023 8:11 AM, Tim R wrote:
> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 12:46:40 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> So Tom, what are your thoughts on the differences and inconsistencies in
>> the four gospels? Especially the differences between John and the three
>> earlier synoptic gospels?
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Just a little nitpick. There are not really "the four gospels." There are four modern canonical

I'll accept that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/3/2023 8:22 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> I often heard criticisms that Catholicism should be more appropriately named Paulinism.

And I've read allusions to "the Pauline heresy."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/3/2023 11:44 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/3/2023 8:22 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I often heard criticisms that Catholicism should be more appropriately
>> named Paulinism.
>
> And I've read allusions to "the Pauline heresy."

I should make clear that I'm not arguing for any particular point of
view. Instead I'm trying to point out that right from the start of
Christianity there were multiple points of view, and the resulting
discussions and disputes have reigned for thousands of years.

In my view, anyone who thinks they know all there is to know is simply
not thinking.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 10:45:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> John never bothered to read the Bible. He is not a Christian and only uses Google to look up things because he likes to look like an authority so that he can treat you badly. He has absolutely no understanding of oral tradition or of how accurate down to even the pronunciation it is. 80 years or 160 years was insufficient for the words of the saints to be misunderstood and the translations of the Greek to Latin introduced far more errors than the oral tradition.
>

Ah, the translation of Greek to Latin.

Why not just retranslate the originals?

Because.............................................. we don't have any originals.

Ooops.

[Tom Kunich]

Yes we do and if you want to see them you can go to the Vatican. Christianity isn't some ancient religion that no one knows about. Just like I was talking about oral tradition, they used people who could remember the gospels of the saints word for word down to the exact pronunciations of the words which were originally in Judeo dialects. These were told word for word to Greek scholars who committed them to the written language. The stupid five here are not religious and the crap they say isn't worth bothering with. It is like my brother using several lines of the bible to "prove" that the Earth is flat.

Re-Translate? Do you suppose they don't have scholars doing that all the time? Tell me how they can effectively translate a dead language?

Maybe more importantly - why are you commenting on these when you don't know or understand any of these things? Why do you believe that you can think of things that the world's greatest minds have not? Granted that there is always the chance that you could stumble on something others have missed, but first you have to know ABOUT the subject and you don't even know that the Greek transliterations still exist!

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/3/2023 1:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:10:56 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Ah, the translation of Greek to Latin.
>>
>> Why not just retranslate the originals?
>>
>> Because.............................................. we don't have any originals.
>>
>> Ooops.
>
> Yes we do and if you want to see them you can go to the Vatican.

Tom, you are so thoroughly ignorant, and so perfectly confident in your
ignorance.

SMH

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 13:16:19 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

My bar mitzvah in 1961 was done at the local temple as a group of
about 13 year old brats. We had a fair size crowd. Of course, a
Sefer Torah was involved.

More recently, the number of 13 year old brats has increased to the
point where it's becoming common to rent a hall and everything
required. Even back in the 1960's, my congregation would rent a local
theater for high holiday (Yom Kippur) services to deal with the
overflow. Today, it seems to me that there are more private services
done in peoples homes and small rented halls than in potentially
crowded temples. I haven't been involved in organizing one of these,
but as I understand it, the temple usually the necessary items and
people or they can be rented somewhere. That includes the necessary
Sefer Torah. I don't know how common this practice might be.

"The Ultimate DIY Bar Mitzvah Guide"
<https://www.kveller.com/the-ultimate-diy-bar-mitzvah-guide/>

I didn't know about having a 2nd Bar Mitzvah at age 83:
<https://reformjudaism.org/blog/83-new-13-why-have-second-bar-mitzvah>
"Psalm 90:10, which says that 70 years is the expected lifespan of
most humans. Reaching age 70, then, can be considered a new start and
therefore, age 83 would be the equivalent to reaching b’nai mitzvah
age again."

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

So much material there...

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 1:16:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 9:10:56 AM UTC-8, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 10:45:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > John never bothered to read the Bible. He is not a Christian and only uses Google to look up things because he likes to look like an authority so that he can treat you badly. He has absolutely no understanding of oral tradition or of how accurate down to even the pronunciation it is. 80 years or 160 years was insufficient for the words of the saints to be misunderstood and the translations of the Greek to Latin introduced far more errors than the oral tradition.
> > >
> > Ah, the translation of Greek to Latin.
> >
> > Why not just retranslate the originals?
> >
> > Because.............................................. we don't have any originals.
> >
> > Ooops.

> if you want to see them you can go to the Vatican.

lol....tommy thinks original new testament gospels are on display at the Vatican.
As usual, tom is wrong.

There are no "original" texts. The Vatican holds quite number of new testament fragments. The earleist fragment they have is from ~225 a.d. The oldest _complete_ version dates from the 400's. There are no scholars of any credibility who think any "original" transcriptions still exist. [1]

> they used people who could remember the gospels of the saints word for word down to the exact pronunciations of the words

The most optimistic view we have holds that the surviving examples were faithfully reproduced from the originals. Most biblical scholars concur that changing interpretations at best give a _reasonably_ accurate transcription from the original such that the original _intent_ is understood. Patheos notes "The fact that the original gospel manuscripts have not survived to this day, combined with the fact that for centuries the text was passed on through a careful but imperfect process of copying, makes us wonder whether we can trust that the Greek text we have today looks anything like what the authors originally wrote down."[2] Patheos as a heavily biased source answers that question as an unequivocal "yes".

Tommy also seems to be operating under some misconception that the gospels were transcribed from oral tradition. I guess he never bothered to do any real research into bible origins [3]

> which were originally in Judeo dialects. These were told word for word to Greek scholars who committed them to the written language.

Except that the 'original' (as they can be) texts were written in Koine Greek - Judean dialects were Hebrew and Aramaic (Jesus was Aramaic). So now we have the first challenge - translating from the Aramaic spoken language to Koine Greek. - let alone then translating to Latin in later centuries. But that's moot, because tommy is still assuming oral tradition here - which he is wrong about.

The Gospels of Luke, Mathew, and Mark were written as first hand accounts by luke, Matthew and Mark (some say Peter had significant influence on Mark). John wrote his significantly after, with a great deal of historical context.

> The stupid five here are not religious

Of course tommy also thinks we all want to see the US completely destroyed and that we want a nuclear holocaust - He's a short hop away from full qanon thinking that the democratic party is a front for cannibalistic pedophiles..

> Tell me how they can effectively translate a dead language?

1 - the earliest new testament texts are written in Koine Greek, which is still spoken today in Greek Orthodox and Greek Catholic services
2- Dead languages are translated all the time.

> Maybe more importantly - why are you commenting on these when you don't know or understand any of these things?

Tommy criticizing others for "not knowing or understanding"....precious....


[1]https://www.thetextofthegospels.com/2016/09/fifty-manuscripts-at-vatican-library.html

[2]https://www.patheos.com/blogs/markdroberts/series/can-we-know-what-the-original-gospel-manuscripts-really-said/

[3] https://www.alabasterco.com/blogs/education/who-wrote-the-four-gospels