Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

In my quest to ensure I have the best quality equipment on all my rides, I've been made aware that I should really invest in special Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables for optimal shifting performance. I've searched in vain on the web for anything marketed as such and was not even aware that campy realized this was an issue that needed addressing. Would anyone have any links for such a product? or have I been misled?

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ

[Lou Holtman]

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:45:23 AM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In my quest to ensure I have the best quality equipment on all my rides, I've been made aware that I should really invest in special Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables for optimal shifting performance. I've searched in vain on the web for anything marketed as such and was not even aware that campy realized this was an issue that needed addressing. Would anyone have any links for such a product? or have I been misled?
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ

As a long time Campagnolo user I can only remember that Campagnolo offers one cable set:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Ergopower-Ultra-Shift-Cable-Set-p20698/

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 2/3/2022 4:45 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In my quest to ensure I have the best quality equipment on all my rides, I've been made aware that I should really invest in special Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables for optimal shifting performance. I've searched in vain on the web for anything marketed as such and was not even aware that campy realized this was an issue that needed addressing. Would anyone have any links for such a product? or have I been misled?
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ
>

No such thing.
Campagnolo gear wires & casing sets are of high quality but
not higher quality than equivalent DuraAce or SRAM Red.
'Gear wires which do not stretch' is a marketing misnomer
and, at least sometimes, an effective spiel.

Gear (and brake) wires do not stretch by any definition.
Casings compress and end ferrules, gear stops etc 'settle
in' to various degrees (Throw out your plastic ferrules. Do
it today.)

NB- If you run Campagnolo Ergo levers, use only Campagnolo
gear wires with the traditional (small) heads. Later
revisions of Asian gear levers (all current systems) run a
larger head wire which will pop in and jam mercilessly in a
Campagnolo lever. You may, however run Campagnolo wires in
any system.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

I have to wonder about the comments about Campy outer cables always having been one set since the ones I have bought recently have different and smaller outer diameter. I also bought an unboxed set in a sealed plastic bag that were the older set with the normal diameters. While I certainly agree that inner stainless cables do not stretch, the result of bedding in of outer cables is effectively the same thing. Most of the campy stuff will no longer allow cable ends of any sort - plastic or metal and are inserted only with the cut cable ends. The rear derailleur cable that runs from the chain stay to the rear derailleur uses ends but the bedding process is so slight over that length that it has no effect that I've been able to detect. Most especially with the latest levers.

I just built up the Douglas aluminum bike using my older 10 speed Records levers and the newer cables and not only do they shift far easier (not that that is much) but with the new style cables they shift accurately and do not change shifting over time. As everything settled in on the first ride, I had to take one full turn on the rear derailleur adjustment and there were no further problems which was rather different than my experience with the previous larger diameter cables.

Or we can listen to typical loud noises issued from the oh so intellectual brain of flunky that there ain't no such thing.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Or we can listen to typical loud noises issued from the oh so intellectual brain of sparky that thinks I wrote " no such thing".

Andrew wrote "no such thing", you braindead twat. I'll take his word over yours on any subject at any time, especially regarding cycling equipment/mechanical issues. If he says "no such thing", I'll take that as gospel. Shut the fuck up.

[AMuzi]

Earlier versions used 5mm gear casings. The current set is
4mm. Just like every other premium brand.

[Tom Kunich]

I'd like to know what you do for a living? probably nothing and that is why you are so profoundly combative. You haven't any means of support. Or is Mommy paying your way?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Funny coming from a high-school dropout living on social security in his mothers house.

Andrew says there is no such thing as "campy non-stretch cables". Live with it.

oh, and Shut the fuck up.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/3/2022 10:35 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I'd like to know what you do for a living? probably nothing and that is why you are so profoundly combative. You haven't any means of support. Or is Mommy paying your way?

Wow! Talk about industrial strength irony!

:-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

Yes, you've been misled, but so have Tom and others. The problem is
that "cable stretch" is a rather poor name for slipping cable end
clamps, ferrules, jackets and adjustment hardware. What's happening
is the derailleur or brake clamps are too loose and slip, the aluminum
cable end is becoming deformed, or the cable housing isn't fully
seated. These appear to the casual observer as cable stretching.

YouTube videos with additional misled victims of "cable stretch":

"Do Bike Cables Stretch: Fact or Myth - stretching & wear"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cc7xQ2NHvg>
This one is interesting as the author blames "micro breaks" in the
outer jacket.

"Fix Cable Stretch on your new bike"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep5-Z5vIw-o>

"Cable stretch myth and how to prevent poor shifting"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Nb5qLMvbU>

Note that chain stretch has a similar naming problem. The chain
components will wear, but do not stretch.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Lou Holtman]

‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 2:50:21 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 02:45:20 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In my quest to ensure I have the best quality equipment on all my rides, I've been made aware that I should really invest in special Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables for optimal shifting performance. I've searched in vain on the web for anything marketed as such and was not even aware that campy realized this was an issue that needed addressing. Would anyone have any links for such a product? or have I been misled?
> >
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ
>
> Yes, you've been misled,

Not really. This thread was a sarcastic response to tommys claim:
"chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until Campy started building special non-stretch cables."

to which I responded
"haha...right, Campy had to build "special non-stretch cables", let me guess, that was after you called Tullio Campagnolo and told him to redesign it, right? Wow...this one's getting it's own thread - idiot "

here:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/3BJX6IcrAQAJ

I knew the only way to drill the point though his thick skull that "special non-stretch cables" don't exist was to create a dedicated thread. I was confident that people with a great level of expertise whom tom respects would weigh in and confirm my point. However, as can be seen above, tommy's level of reading comprehension is so bad that he ascribed Andrews' comment of "no such thing" to me.

I appreciate all you've written below, and it's common knowledge to any reasonably inclined bike mechanic - which explains why tommy got it wrong and had to imagine something like he had to buy "special non-stretch cables" to cover his mistake.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

+1

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 11:57:52 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 8:50:21 PM UTC+1, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 02:45:20 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In my quest to ensure I have the best quality equipment on all my rides, I've been made aware that I should really invest in special Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables for optimal shifting performance. I've searched in vain on the web for anything marketed as such and was not even aware that campy realized this was an issue that needed addressing. Would anyone have any links for such a product? or have I been misled?
>> >
>> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ
>> Yes, you've been misled, but so have Tom and others. The problem is
>> that "cable stretch" is a rather poor name for slipping cable end
>> clamps, ferrules, jackets and adjustment hardware. What's happening
>> is the derailleur or brake clamps are too loose and slip, the aluminum
>> cable end is becoming deformed, or the cable housing isn't fully
>> seated. These appear to the casual observer as cable stretching.
>>
>> YouTube videos with additional misled victims of "cable stretch":
>>
>> "Do Bike Cables Stretch: Fact or Myth - stretching & wear"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cc7xQ2NHvg>
>> This one is interesting as the author blames "micro breaks" in the
>> outer jacket.
>>
>> "Fix Cable Stretch on your new bike"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep5-Z5vIw-o>
>>
>> "Cable stretch myth and how to prevent poor shifting"
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Nb5qLMvbU>
>>
>> Note that chain stretch has a similar naming problem. The chain
>> components will wear, but do not stretch.

>‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.
>Lou

Yes, but there are tools available that reduce "cable slop" during
installation:
<https://www.parktool.com/product/cable-stretcher-bt-2>
Hmmm... I wonder why Park calls it a "cable stetcher"? Probably
another misled victim.

More:
<https://pedros.com/products/cable-puller>
<https://www.amazon.com/IceToolz-Fourth-Hand-Cable-Puller/dp/B0028N57KK>
<https://www.amazon.com/Venzo-Bicycle-Professional-Shifter-Caliper/dp/B088627BDZ>

I use locking pliers, but a proper tool would certainly be better.

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, why do you talk about things you don't understand and pretend to be an expert at it?

[Lou Holtman]

Those tools are awful to use. These are meant to initial tension the inner cable during installation so the chance that you run out of adjustment of your barrel during adjustment of the rear or front derailleur. Proper installation is taking care of your casings during installation. Make sure that they are properly seated against their stops. So cut/file/grind them square without the plastic coating interfere, make sure the ferrules are seated properly and the ferrules are seated properly against the stop. Before doing the final adjustment try to shift while holding the derailleur with your hand so you put the housing in compression so everything gets seated properly. Do that a couple of times and then final adjust. I never have to readjust my RD after that procedure.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

A friend introduced me to that tool back in the 1980s. Yes, it's better,
and if I did as many cables as a professional bike mechanic I'd use one.
But for the couple times per year I fuss with cables it's not worth the
bother of buying it and storing it. (My bike tools drawer is rather
small and overstuffed.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:57:54 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> ‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.

As Andrew says, it is mis-seating of the outside cable. The inside cable cannot stretch and Jeff's idea of loose cable locks would simply allow a cable to pull loose. The new style smaller and more ridged Campy outers (and Andrew says that the top end Shimano and SRAM have copied it) fits into most of the cable ends without using metal or plastic cable ends and so cannot "seat" except for the rear derailleur hook outer.

So you'd have to sloppy to the levels of incompetence to have problems with the new style cables. Now the old style cables that were mostly made in China and most bike shops were carrying were another story. For the brake cables the spiral liner had a lot of space between the metal liner and it would make the brakes soft. The shift cable outers had too much room in the inside diameter and the individual wires would move around and push down making pretty much the same thing. The Campy cables are not only smaller in diameter but also has a plastic inner tube that takes up any extra space so that you don't have the same problems at all.

[AMuzi]

Park is in the business of selling tools so that's exactly
the terminology one might expect.

Taking up slack with a gizmo (when installing brake or gear
cable systems) may be helpful to the unskilled mechanic.
Nothing wrong with that and they're generally cheap. No
relation to that and the phenomenon called 'cable stretch'
by OP.

Let me be clear on one point. Steel bowden wire does not
stretch for any measurable value.

[AMuzi]

>>> ‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.

>>> Lou
>> Yes, but there are tools available that reduce "cable slop" during
>> installation:
>> <https://www.parktool.com/product/cable-stretcher-bt-2>
>> Hmmm... I wonder why Park calls it a "cable stetcher"? Probably
>> another misled victim.
>>
>> More:
>> <https://pedros.com/products/cable-puller>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/IceToolz-Fourth-Hand-Cable-Puller/dp/B0028N57KK>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Venzo-Bicycle-Professional-Shifter-Caliper/dp/B088627BDZ>
>>
>> I use locking pliers, but a proper tool would certainly be better.
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
> Those tools are awful to use. These are meant to initial tension the inner cable during installation so the chance that you run out of adjustment of your barrel during adjustment of the rear or front derailleur. Proper installation is taking care of your casings during installation. Make sure that they are properly seated against their stops. So cut/file/grind them square without the plastic coating interfere, make sure the ferrules are seated properly and the ferrules are seated properly against the stop. Before doing the final adjustment try to shift while holding the derailleur with your hand so you put the housing in compression so everything gets seated properly. Do that a couple of times and then final adjust. I never have to readjust my RD after that procedure.
>
> Lou
>

+1
We build and ship race bikes which have to shift crisply out
of the box and stay that way. It's not magic, only rigor,
just as Lou describes.

[AMuzi]

>>> ‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.

>>> Lou
>>
>> Yes, but there are tools available that reduce "cable
>> slop" during
>> installation:
>> <https://www.parktool.com/product/cable-stretcher-bt-2>
>> Hmmm... I wonder why Park calls it a "cable stetcher"?
>> Probably
>> another misled victim.
>>
>> More:
>> <https://pedros.com/products/cable-puller>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/IceToolz-Fourth-Hand-Cable-Puller/dp/B0028N57KK>
>>
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Venzo-Bicycle-Professional-Shifter-Caliper/dp/B088627BDZ>
>>
>>
>> I use locking pliers, but a proper tool would certainly be
>> better.
>
> A friend introduced me to that tool back in the 1980s. Yes,
> it's better, and if I did as many cables as a professional
> bike mechanic I'd use one. But for the couple times per year
> I fuss with cables it's not worth the bother of buying it
> and storing it. (My bike tools drawer is rather small and
> overstuffed.)
>

I disagree.
If you were a professional mechanic you would not even
consider it.

[John B.]

Now Frank you just got to stop talking bad about Tommy. Your jealousy
is showing'

Just look at Tommy's accomplishments.

In the world of used bicycles,why just ask anybody about Tommy and
they'll tell you, "Don't buy from Tommy". I'll bet that nobody in the
used bicycle business even knows who you are.

Education? Well, I'm guessing here but you probably had to attend
school for some years, perhaps as many as 16 years, or maybe even
more. In comparison, Tommy, didn't even have to finish 12.

Wealth? Well Tommy apparently paid something like $50,000 for the
house he lives in. Did you pay $50,000 for your place? I'll bet you
didn't.

And Jobs? Why, Tommy has had a whole slew of jobs and you? Well, again
guessing. What? 4 or 5, in your whole life, counting your childhood
labors delivering newspapers

One of the worse shortcomings of growing old is that we will never, no
matter how hard we try, ever be able to emulate Tommy.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I do that with both my shifter cables and housings and also my brake cables and housings. I've had times when squeezing the brake lever hard after installing the brake cable and housing, resulted in the cable housing pulling through the metal ferrule. That's something I'd much rather happen on the workstand than on the road.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

>>>> ‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.

>>>> Lou
>>> Yes, but there are tools available that reduce "cable slop" during
>>> installation:
>>> <https://www.parktool.com/product/cable-stretcher-bt-2>
>>> Hmmm... I wonder why Park calls it a "cable stetcher"? Probably
>>> another misled victim.
>>>
>>> More:
>>> <https://pedros.com/products/cable-puller>
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/IceToolz-Fourth-Hand-Cable-Puller/dp/B0028N57KK>
>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Venzo-Bicycle-Professional-Shifter-Caliper/dp/B088627BDZ>
>>>
>>> I use locking pliers, but a proper tool would certainly be better.
>>> --
>>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>> Those tools are awful to use. These are meant to initial tension the inner cable during installation so the chance that you run out of adjustment of your barrel during adjustment of the rear or front derailleur. Proper installation is taking care of your casings during installation. Make sure that they are properly seated against their stops. So cut/file/grind them square without the plastic coating interfere, make sure the ferrules are seated properly and the ferrules are seated properly against the stop. Before doing the final adjustment try to shift while holding the derailleur with your hand so you put the housing in compression so everything gets seated properly. Do that a couple of times and then final adjust. I never have to readjust my RD after that procedure.
>>
>> Lou
>
> I do that with both my shifter cables and housings and also my brake cables and housings. I've had times when squeezing the brake lever hard after installing the brake cable and housing, resulted in the cable housing pulling through the metal ferrule. That's something I'd much rather happen on the workstand than on the road.
>
> Cheers
>

+1

[John B.]

On Thu, 03 Feb 2022 11:50:11 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Well, steel cables do stretch. In fact even a look on the New will
show yo that "yes, cables stretch" and cable companies even furnish
tables to calculate how much they stretch. One site
https://www.spaceagecontrol.com/calcstre.htm?MA%5B0%5D=1&MA%5B2%5D=60&MA%5B1%5D=0.0472&Submit=Calculate
tells us that a 1.2mm (Shimano Standard Zinc-coated Derailleur Cable
Shift Cable)
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Standard-Zinc-coated-Derailleur-1-2x2100-mm/dp/B00KXMEXOY/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=bike+shifter+cable&qid=1643935508&sr=8-6
2100mm (82")long will stretch 0.004" with a load of 1 lb. and .008"
with 2 lb.
If we shorten the cable to, say 1050mm (41") then the stretch is
0.002" and 0.004".
Note a human hair can be as large as .005" in diameter.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

OK, I'll take your word on that. I've never used one, just watched my
friend use it.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I've always used a pair of vice grip, self locking, pliers, the
largest pair I have and just clipped them on, 2 or 3 inches below the
brake or Derailleur and just left them hanging while I tightened up
the clamping bolt. Not perfect perhaps but has always gotten thing
within the range of the adjusting screw
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 4:50:19 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 11:57:54 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> > ‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.
> As Andrew says, it is mis-seating of the outside cable. The inside cable cannot stretch

Except that "chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until Campy started building special non-stretch cables."

> and Jeff's idea of loose cable locks would simply allow a cable to pull loose. The new style smaller and more ridged Campy outers (and Andrew says that the top end Shimano and SRAM have copied it)

No, Andrew did _not_ write that. He wrote that older campy housings "used 5mm gear casings. The current set is 4mm. Just like every other premium brand" - IOW, Campy _followed_ the rest of the industry. Chalk another one up to tommy's poor reading comprehension.

> fits into most of the cable ends without using metal or plastic cable ends and so cannot "seat" except for the rear derailleur hook outer.
>
> So you'd have to sloppy to the levels of incompetence to have problems with the new style cables.

Which is why you had to go buy Campys Special Non-Stretch Cables. Where did you get those Tommy? Inquiring minds want to know!

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That's mostly how I do it, except that I squeeze the calipers firmly while tightening the bolt with the adjuster at the 'loose' end of it's range. Give the lever a good tight squeeze to seat everything, then adjust the tension. I very rarely have to to another iteration.

[Tom Kunich]

I am a little curious, how do you properly tension the inner front derailleur cable since the wires all have enough rebound in them to make installation even with the front derailleur stops properly set to be quite difficult? I use the fourth hand nowhere else but find it very helpful there.

[AMuzi]

>>>>> ‘Cable stretch’ is sloppy installation.

>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but there are tools available that reduce "cable
>>>> slop" during
>>>> installation:
>>>> <https://www.parktool.com/product/cable-stretcher-bt-2>
>>>> Hmmm... I wonder why Park calls it a "cable stetcher"?
>>>> Probably
>>>> another misled victim.
>>>>
>>>> More:
>>>> <https://pedros.com/products/cable-puller>
>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/IceToolz-Fourth-Hand-Cable-Puller/dp/B0028N57KK>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/Venzo-Bicycle-Professional-Shifter-Caliper/dp/B088627BDZ>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I use locking pliers, but a proper tool would certainly be
>>>> better.
>>>
>>> A friend introduced me to that tool back in the 1980s. Yes,
>>> it's better, and if I did as many cables as a professional
>>> bike mechanic I'd use one. But for the couple times per year
>>> I fuss with cables it's not worth the bother of buying it
>>> and storing it. (My bike tools drawer is rather small and
>>> overstuffed.)
>>>
>> I disagree.
>> If you were a professional mechanic you would not even
>> consider it.
>
> I am a little curious, how do you properly tension the inner front derailleur cable since the wires all have enough rebound in them to make installation even with the front derailleur stops properly set to be quite difficult? I use the fourth hand nowhere else but find it very helpful there.
>

Adjust limits by pressing the arm. Lubricate and install
casing and wire. With changer in low gear, pull wire across
anchor plate and tighten. Check limits, check wire tension,
correct as needed. Finally trim and cap wire.

[Tom Kunich]

After the discussion about how a 4th hand was unnecessary I was just down replacing the handlebar with a one piece and shortening the rear cables. While it is easy to set the rear brake by hand so that you don't have to adjust it, the rear derailleur was another story. But what I did was set the rear derailleur as close as I could with the adjustment centered. Then I shifted up one cog from the bottom. The cable regardless of how tightly I had pulled it was too loose to shift. So I used the 4th hand and pulled just enough tension on the rear derailleur cable for it to shift into the next gear and tightened it. All worked perfect. It goes through all 11 speed without a problem. So there is a reason for a 4th hand in my books.

[John B.]

On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 02:44:36 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

Sort of like tying your shoes. Give the laces a good tug before you
tie the knot, otherwise they will come loose.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 2/3/2022 11:50 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2022 02:45:20 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In my quest to ensure I have the best quality equipment on all my rides, I've been made aware that I should really invest in special Campagnolo non-stretch shifting cables for optimal shifting performance. I've searched in vain on the web for anything marketed as such and was not even aware that campy realized this was an issue that needed addressing. Would anyone have any links for such a product? or have I been misled?
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ
>
> Yes, you've been misled, but so have Tom and others. The problem is
> that "cable stretch" is a rather poor name for slipping cable end
> clamps, ferrules, jackets and adjustment hardware. What's happening
> is the derailleur or brake clamps are too loose and slip, the aluminum
> cable end is becoming deformed, or the cable housing isn't fully
> seated. These appear to the casual observer as cable stretching.

If you look at the web sites for control cables for military and
aircraft applications, pre-stretching occurs at the factory. All
wire-rope cables will stretch as they come off the winding machines. For
bicycles, since it's non-critical, pre-stretched cables are not available.

Some people confuse proor-loading of the cable assemble with
pre-stretching of the wire. that is what you're referring to when you
include clamps, ferrules, jackets, and adjustment hardware. But the wire
itself does actually stretch, it just contributes less than all the
other components in the cable assembly.

[Lou Holtman]

Yeah even a solid rod stretches theoretically. You know what tension forces are exerted on a shift cable?

Lou

[John B.]

Solid rod stretching? Yes, in fact that is how tensile strength of
metal is measured. A specific diameter "rod" of the material is
"stretched" and the load at which it which starts to elongate it and
the load at which it is pulls apart is recorded (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

As usual you can't wait to look the stupid ass you are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8U4G5kcpcM

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/7/2022 9:45 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 2:25:35 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

>> On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 06:24:58 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah even a solid rod stretches theoretically.

Well, not just theoretically. Any stress causes some deformation.

> You know what tension forces are exerted on a shift cable?
>>>
>>> Lou
>> Solid rod stretching? Yes, in fact that is how tensile strength of
>> metal is measured. A specific diameter "rod" of the material is
>> "stretched" and the load at which it which starts to elongate it and
>> the load at which it is pulls apart is recorded (:-)
>
> As usual you can't wait to look the stupid ass you are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8U4G5kcpcM

???

Tom, you just posted a link to a video that confirms what John said,
just with more detail.

What part of that did you not understand?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Perhaps you should stop showing that as a mechanical engineering teacher that you don't understand the basics. Measuring the strength of a material is NOT measuring the strength of a rod. To know the strength of a rod you use the published strength of a material and the SIZE of a rod. You do not test a rod for its particular strength.

Frank, hardly a day goes by that you don't show that you cannot even remember the absolute basics of engineering. Are you suffering from dementia?

[Frank Krygowski]

As you often do, you seem to be arguing against what you pretend someone
said (or perhaps wish they said) as opposed to what they actually said.
Nothing John said should have caused confusion. But if you have honest
questions about tensile strength or tensile testing, please ask away.

BTW, how's your quest for "non-stretch" cables coming? Does your
universe contain metal that exhibits no elongation when subjected to
tensile forces? Does Hooke's Law apply in your universe?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

And as usual you do not want the truth published, you only want to argue that I'm wrong when what I said was 100% correct and what Dipwawd said was utter garbage. As I said and as John improperly said, you do NOT measure the strength of a rod by measuring that rod. You have a material strength and you chose the area of the rod to match the material strength. Why are you arguing about this since it is the basis of materials science?

[Frank Krygowski]

That's not what John said. Why won't your wife help you with reading
comprehension? Doesn't she like you?

Again, if you have real questions about material testing, just ask.
Otherwise, you'll look less foolish if you just shut up.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Looking back I can see how I might have misunderstood that really smart John. His English is a little rusty after so many years in a foreign land. John did not answer Lou's comment but made one that could have been misinterpreted as meaning that you actually stretched specific diameters of rod (or cable) to measure their tensile strength direct.

Of course the specific diameter of the test piece is irrelevant since the only thing necessary to know is it's cross section and it's stress test. This ONLY gives the strength of a specific material.

When people are saying that inner cables don't stretch, why haven't you corrected them? A stress test of that cable would show ZERO stress for a certain added pressure since the cable does wind up. But you have ignored that because the actual breaking force is too small for that wind-up to have any effect. Maybe you should have your wife remind you that you once trained as an engineer and being precise is the sign of an engineer.

So now you're the courageous one like Flunky. Why don't you make me shut up you brave, courageous man?

[Lou Holtman]

For the record in reply to sms post what I tried to say was that the forces on a shifter cable is so small that the strech or wind up is irrelevant. That is the reason we can use the shifter outer cables as they are. Again ‘cable stretch’ is a sloppy installating which can easily be prevented.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I completely agree with you but it is there on a clean setup too. As I pointed out, I set up the rear derailleur as tight as possible and the rear derailleur would not move up from the small cog, to the next one. So using a 4th hand I could tighten the inner cable enough to operate normally quite easily. Shifter cables for front and rear derailleurs always have sufficient wind-up to make it difficult to allow them to work. A pro mechanic will set the derailleur limits by eye and then pull the inner cables tight with a pair of pliers. Then they use the adjusters to make them work. As a normal mechanic, I set the cable tension properly using a 4th hand and get them to work properly and THEN set the limit screws because you have to have a lot of room to work. I'm working in my garage with a car sharing the space. I can't stand back far enough to set limits by eye. This also goes for the rotation of many bikes that don't use braze-on derailleurs but rather adapter or circular clamp front derailleurs. I now have a system worked out to adjust the derailleurs so that they are now silent over the entire range.

[Lou Holtman]

You can tighten the cable as much as you like with pliers or forth hand but after you thighten the bolt it is only the derailleur spring that tensions the cable. You only tension the cable with pliers as much as possible to avoid running out of adjustment range.

Lou

[John B.]

Errr TOMMY! Did you actually watch that video?

I ask as it demonstrates, for those that don't read well, just exactly
what I wrote.

As Frank suggested, you really should get your wife, or some other
person with normal mental facilities to read and explain what's right
there on the page... "in black and white" as the old saying has it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

See there Frank, you are dumb as dumb can be.

I wonder how Tommy thinks that the "published strength of a material",
as he terms it, is determined.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well Tommy, supposing that you don't have your head firmly inserted in
your own posterior, can you tell us just how this "material strength"
that you mention is determined?

I would add that any claims that you have made of being an "engineer"
just flapped their wings and flew out the window.

You, to quote someone or another, "wouldn't make a pimple on an
engineer's arse".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well Tommy, my English might be a bit rusty but I still know what
"stress" is, or the word means, if you prefer and your use of the
word... "ZERO stress for a certain added pressure".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, I published some actual "stretch" numbers taken from cable
manufacturer's published figures and YES a cable, the size of the
Shimano shift cables does stretch. An amazing 0.003 of 1 inch at a 1
pound load!

Somewhat less then the diameter of a human hair (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

That's roughly the thickness of standard office paper.
Immaterial to bicycle function although, yes, not zero.

[John B.]

Exactly (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

And by no means any incentive for campagnolo to create "special non-stretch cables"

[Tom Kunich]

I don't quite follow what you mean Lou. When you adjust the limits of the derailleurs, you are not adjusting the spring tension on them. This means that no matter how you pull the cable tight with a pair of pliers there is always a bit of play at the bottom end of derailleurs. A 4th hand can pull tension onto the cable and spring assembly.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 3:24:55 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Looking back I can see how I might have misunderstood that really smart John.

not "might have", but 'did'. BTW, you're the only one. Every one else knew exactly what he was referring to, and knew it to be correct.

> His English is a little rusty after so many years in a foreign land.

It's better than yours

> John did not answer Lou's comment but made one that could have been misinterpreted as meaning that you actually stretched specific diameters of rod (or cable) to measure their tensile strength direct.

Reading comprehension sparky - John made a tangential comment. The only person that misinterpreted it was you.

> Of course the specific diameter of the test piece is irrelevant since the only thing necessary to know is it's cross section and it's stress test. This ONLY gives the strength of a specific material.

Now Tommy will amaze us all by explaining now the diameter of a rod is _not_ related to its cross section.
Oh, by the way, ASTM E8 stipulates the relationship of the length of the test section to the diameter of the test section of 4:1.

So, considering the cross section of a cylinder perpendicular to the axis is πR^2 (and remember tommy, R is .5D)
And
ASTM stipulates the relationship of L to D as 4:1
It seems the diameter of the test specimen is _hardly_ irrelevant.
This is stuff you would have learned in school if you has stayed in school.

>
> So now you're the courageous one like Flunky. Why don't you make me shut up you brave, courageous man?

No one is afraid of you and your big mouth. Shut the fuck up.

[Tom Kunich]

Since you have no fear, I am awaiting your appearance with vast unmitigated fear to show up and shut me up. Surely with such courage as yours you wouldn't be making idle threats now would you?

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:44:58 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

By the way Flunky - obey your leader Biden and run down and get another booster.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

You aren't worth the effort. - simply an impotent half-witted dropout who's entire currency consists of qanon bullshit, ignorant technical "knowledge", and perverted historical interpretations.

> Surely with such courage as yours you wouldn't be making idle threats now would you?

where did I make a threat? That's your shtick sparky. You've threatened at least 4 people here with assault, and that's only in the past couple of years since I've been a member. And of course, you veer widely off topic, not even addressing your embarrassingly stupid assertions in an attempt to play a victim. You're getting what you deserve.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

By the way sparky, obey your leader and run down to get your covid vaccine

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/540922-trump-tells-fans-to-get-vaccinated-during-cpac-address

[Tom Kunich]

That was 02/28/21 06:41 PM EST. Unlike you little mindless followers, Trump has the ability to learn. You're so stupid you have to find a posting from the time that vaccinations were first released and no one knew anything about them.

Go down and get your booster like a good little boy.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 12:32:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> That was 02/28/21 06:41 PM EST. Unlike you little mindless followers, Trump has the ability to learn. You're so stupid you have to find a posting from the time that vaccinations were first released and no one knew anything about them.
>
> Go down and get your booster like a good little boy.

Gawd yer a moron. From december 23rd (that's 6 weeks ago if the math os too tough for you):
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-covid-vaccine-one-of-greatest-achievements-mankind-owens-interview-2021-12
"If you take the vaccine, you're protected. Look, the results of the vaccine are very good. And if you do get [COVID-19], it's a very minor form. People aren't dying when they take their vaccine," the former president said."

Now run down and get your vaccination like a good little donny-cult member.

Tell ya what sparky - provide one link from this year where trump says the vaccines don't work.
Or, shut the fuck up, it's pretty clear that you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:31:41 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>By the way sparky, obey your leader and run down to get your covid vaccine
>https://thehill.com/homenews/news/540922-trump-tells-fans-to-get-vaccinated-during-cpac-address

Nice find. I missed that in the news. However, it might not be a
genuine change of heart by Trump. In the year prior to the 2020
election, the healthcare industry had already donated $1.4 million to
Republican Trump and $3.6 million spread around various Democrat
candidates, just in case Trump fails to get elected:
"From Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders, here's how much every 2020
presidential candidate has gotten from the healthcare industry"
<https://www.businessinsider.com/healthcare-donations-to-2020-presidential-candidates-2019-7>
Well, despite throwing $1.4 million at Trump, he continued to promote
an agenda that was hardly in the best interest of the healthcare
industry. My guess(tm) is they don't want to make the same mistake
twice. If Trump wants their money for the 2024 election, he will need
to make some fundamental policy changes. Just follow the money.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

On 2/8/2022 2:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:31:41 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> By the way sparky, obey your leader and run down to get your covid vaccine
>> https://thehill.com/homenews/news/540922-trump-tells-fans-to-get-vaccinated-during-cpac-address
>
> Nice find. I missed that in the news. However, it might not be a
> genuine change of heart by Trump. In the year prior to the 2020
> election, the healthcare industry had already donated $1.4 million to
> Republican Trump and $3.6 million spread around various Democrat
> candidates, just in case Trump fails to get elected:
> "From Donald Trump to Bernie Sanders, here's how much every 2020
> presidential candidate has gotten from the healthcare industry"
> <https://www.businessinsider.com/healthcare-donations-to-2020-presidential-candidates-2019-7>
> Well, despite throwing $1.4 million at Trump, he continued to promote
> an agenda that was hardly in the best interest of the healthcare
> industry. My guess(tm) is they don't want to make the same mistake
> twice. If Trump wants their money for the 2024 election, he will need
> to make some fundamental policy changes. Just follow the money.
>

shhhh. You're not supposed to say 'follow the money':

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/pfizer-inc/summary?id=D000000138

https://www.investopedia.com/top-donors-to-biden-2020-campaign-5080324

Not only. Top execs at Pfizer advised the Biden campaign all
through 2020. Oh, and it's just a coincidence that the
culmination of Mr Trump's Operation Warp Speed was just
_after_ the election. Odd timing, that.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/12/biden-informed-of-pfizers-vaccine-news-before-government-health-officials/

But hey believe what you will. Nothing about 2020 will ever
be fully known.

[Tom Kunich]

What Pfizer knew from the beginning was that vaccines can be very dangerous. I am absolutely convinced that no doctor would have allowed someone of Biden's age from being vaccinated. I am convinced that since Harris was VP there was no way that the puppet masters were going to allow even the smallest possibility that Biden could be killed from a vaccine. So they didn't vaccinate him - they gave him Saline solution.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/8/2022 4:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> shhhh. You're not supposed to say 'follow the money':
>
> https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/pfizer-inc/summary?id=D000000138
>
> https://www.investopedia.com/top-donors-to-biden-2020-campaign-5080324
>
> Not only. Top execs at Pfizer advised the Biden campaign all through
> 2020. Oh, and it's just a coincidence that the culmination of Mr Trump's
> Operation Warp Speed was just _after_ the election. Odd timing, that.
>
> https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/12/biden-informed-of-pfizers-vaccine-news-before-government-health-officials/
>
>
> But hey believe what you will. Nothing about 2020 will ever be fully known.

You're underestimating the size of the Great Conspiracy! (Well, _this_
great conspiracy, anyway.) This totally fake virus is supposedly being
treated by something like a couple dozen vaccines across the globe.
Somehow, all those vaccine companies colluded into controlling over 150
governments around the world. They've convinced them _all_ to falsify
their medical records and death counts. They've even staged elaborate
mockups of patients being treated in temporary shelters because
hospitals were full. They purposely turned away patients in dire need of
other, non-virus care to maintain the charade that their facilities were
full. That's significant, because hospitals make a lot of money on
things like emergency cardiac treatment!

Heck, the conspirators even recruited some friends of mine! They must
have paid my one buddy a ton of money to pretend he was on a ventilator
so long that nobody thought he would survive. (His local newspaper had
him on the front page surrounded by his nurses when he left the
hospital.) Another friend was _supposedly_ laid up for a couple months
with this pretend virus, staying away from all our mutual friends. And a
right-wing friend of mine apparently pretended to get treated with
monoclonal antibodies when he pretended to get COVID after refusing to
be vaccinated. That all _had_ to be fake, because what kind of person
would refuse to get the vaccine because he didn't know what was in it,
then pretend it was OK to get antibodies that he knew nothing about?

A conspiracy this large cannot be fought. Just give in and get the
damned vaccine. The galactic alien overlords behind it will make
everything OK.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 2/8/2022 12:02 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:31:41 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> By the way sparky, obey your leader and run down to get your covid vaccine
>> https://thehill.com/homenews/news/540922-trump-tells-fans-to-get-vaccinated-during-cpac-address
>
> Nice find. I missed that in the news. However, it might not be a
> genuine change of heart by Trump.

It's for a couple of reasons.

First of all, Trump has made a big deal about how fast the vaccines came
out and tried to claim credit for it even though Pfizer took none of the
government research and development money.

Second of all, there are some states where the election results are very
close and having your supporters not die of Covid is a matter of
self-interest.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, you don't seem to have learned a single thing from the actions of the governments not only here, but in Great Britain, New Zealand, Canada and Australia. How easily they forgot human rights and how easily they slipped into tyranny. I showed you how only 7100 people above the 2015-2019 average actually died from an undefined respiratory illness which could just as well have been smoking crack or meth which has the same symptoms as a upper respiratory track disease. So exactly WHERE did this 900,000 extra deaths come from? Do you have the slightest understanding what sort of increase in deaths that was? 16%!!!

If you can accept that as being invisible could you also accept the fact that the mortuary business was losing money?

You have been perfectly willing to argue with me but you don't seem to give a damn that you've been made a fool of and the chickens are coming home to roost.

I get pissed at your stupid comments and yell at you but I don't believe you to be stupid. The question then is WHY are you acting stupid? Why when faced with all of the evidence do you react in an illogical manner? If this is only because you don't like me that isn't very smart is it? You are supposed to be able to look at the evidence and make decisions based on facts. Why would you believe comments from Fauci which a grade school kid could see are unbelievable?

Really, it is time to wake up and smell the coffee. 900,000 extra deaths would fill graveyards with funeral services, they would be on every road. I designed PCR automation and I told you that it wasn't NEVER designed for diagnosis and I even went so far as to show you Kary Mullis videos saying the same thing and echoing my opinion that Fauci was a moron. When I went around to hospitals during the HIV epidemic I was working indirectly for Fauci and listened to the crap he was spouting. So I know that he is a liar of the first water. Hell several years ago he claimed that the country should have locked down for another influenza.

This is the way that the NIH is supposed to work - they tell you what you should do. They do not ENFORCE it. That is unconstitutional and that is what has been happening for the last two years. What in the hell are county SUPERVISORS telling you that you must wear a mask or be arrested!

You should start asking yourself why you have been supporting a government that has trampled all over your constitutional rights for no reason whatsoever.

[John B.]

tOn Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:20:20 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 10:38:59 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 6:44:58 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 3:24:55 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Looking back I can see how I might have misunderstood that really smart John.
>> > not "might have", but 'did'. BTW, you're the only one. Every one else knew exactly what he was referring to, and knew it to be correct.
>> > > His English is a little rusty after so many years in a foreign land.
>> > It's better than yours
>> > > John did not answer Lou's comment but made one that could have been misinterpreted as meaning that you actually stretched specific diameters of rod (or cable) to measure their tensile strength direct.
>> > Reading comprehension sparky - John made a tangential comment. The only person that misinterpreted it was you.
>> > > Of course the specific diameter of the test piece is irrelevant since the only thing necessary to know is it's cross section and it's stress test. This ONLY gives the strength of a specific material.
>> > Now Tommy will amaze us all by explaining now the diameter of a rod is _not_ related to its cross section.
>> > Oh, by the way, ASTM E8 stipulates the relationship of the length of the test section to the diameter of the test section of 4:1.
>> >

>> > So, considering the cross section of a cylinder perpendicular to the axis is ?R^2 (and remember tommy, R is .5D)

>> > And
>> > ASTM stipulates the relationship of L to D as 4:1
>> > It seems the diameter of the test specimen is _hardly_ irrelevant.
>> > This is stuff you would have learned in school if you has stayed in school.
>> > >
>> > > So now you're the courageous one like Flunky. Why don't you make me shut up you brave, courageous man?
>> > No one is afraid of you and your big mouth. Shut the fuck up.
>>
>> Since you have no fear, I am awaiting your appearance with vast unmitigated fear to show up and shut me up.
>
>You aren't worth the effort. - simply an impotent half-witted dropout who's entire currency consists of qanon bullshit, ignorant technical "knowledge", and perverted historical interpretations.
>
> > Surely with such courage as yours you wouldn't be making idle threats now would you?
>
>where did I make a threat? That's your shtick sparky. You've threatened at least 4 people here with assault, and that's only in the past couple of years since I've been a member. And of course, you veer widely off topic, not even addressing your embarrassingly stupid assertions in an attempt to play a victim. You're getting what you deserve.
>

AND... with all his money a ticket on an airplane would be hardly
pocket change. So logic would have it that rather then insults and
threats old Tommy would be jetting around the country "sorting" y'all
out.

Or perhaps we have our very own Walter Mitty, right her on RBT?
https://tinyurl.com/4pvte5aw
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Now Scharf, I have no problem thinking that you have the mind of a 4 year old. Trump put the vaccines on the fast track and so HE DID help develop them you idiot. He had been led to believe by Fauci that this was a killer virus when it was nothing of the kind. If you're too stupid to know why Pfizer didn't take government money you're showing further proof that you're a dope. If any pharmaceutical company took government money they could not patent the vaccine.

I know PCR and you could find ANY virus on the fruit in a supermarket if you're willing to cycle a PCR enough times. As for covid-19 - they STILL HAVE NOT ISOLATED IT. Therefore by their own standards it does not exist. The numbers of excess deaths are not statistically relevant. Got that? This may simply be a chance happenstance.

Do you think that identical numbers of old age deaths occur every year? Are you aware that virtually all of the extra deaths occurred from circulatory diseases? If you take fentanyl it stops your heart! It is impossible to get heroin today that isn't cut with fentanyl. Biden's open borders now has such a large amount of drugs coming in (fentanyl is made in China) that they are available on almost every street corner. In the subways and on city buses. People that look like homeless are selling it everywhere. Probably 20% of the people in Los Gatos are addicted.

[John B.]

And almost 1/4 of the U.S. population has caught the disease and
nearly a million have died of it - actual numbers are 23.47% and
930,760 deaths.

In contrast the total deaths in combat in all the wars the U.S. has
fought from 1775 until 2019 amount to 666,441.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well Tommy, it came from the CDC.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
At the top of the page, "United States at a glance:
As of February 8, 2022 1:02 PM ET
Total cases: 76,782,002
Total Deaths: 903,038

>If you can accept that as being invisible could you also accept the fact that the mortuary business was losing money?

Well, right there on the printed page? Invisible? What does the Good
Book say? None so blind as those that refuse to see?

I might also point out that the number of Covid deaths reported by the
CDC is, currently, about 40% more then the total of all the combat
deaths in all the wars that the U.S. has fought from 1775 to 2019.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/8/2022 5:49 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Trump put the vaccines on the fast track and so HE DID help develop them you idiot.

In related news, Al Gore DID invent the internet! :-)

I'm joking, of course. As with the "Swift Boating" of Kerry, that was a
fabrication by Gore's opponents.
See https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/internet-of-lies/ )

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I do think that's part of Tom's psyche. He seems to have a very rich
fantasy life.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 15:13:05 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

(chomp)

>shhhh. You're not supposed to say 'follow the money':
>https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/pfizer-inc/summary?id=D000000138

Yep. In 2020, Pfizer gave 61% of its contributions to the Democrats
and 39% to the Republicans.
<https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/pfizer-inc/totals?id=D000000138>
Note the red/blue bar graph near the top of the page. Note that
Pfizer gave more or equal amounts to the Republicans in almost every
election except 2020. So, what changed in 2020? Perhaps Pfizer
didn't trust Trump?

>https://www.investopedia.com/top-donors-to-biden-2020-campaign-5080324

>Not only. Top execs at Pfizer advised the Biden campaign all
>through 2020. Oh, and it's just a coincidence that the
>culmination of Mr Trump's Operation Warp Speed was just
>_after_ the election. Odd timing, that.
>
>https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/12/biden-informed-of-pfizers-vaccine-news-before-government-health-officials/
>
>But hey believe what you will. Nothing about 2020 will ever
>be fully known.

Agreed. Maybe we'll get some amazing revelations after everyone
involved is dead and buried.

What bothered me about 2020 was not the widespread corruption and
general lack of ethics by all involved. That's normal and business as
usual in most countries, including the USA. For example, here's a
video on the Hayes/Tilden election of 1876. It reads like a template
for the 2020 election:
"Your Fraudulency: The 1876 election"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OihYWKuozOE>
However, there's one big difference. After the election results were
tabulated and the deals, compromises, and bribes were crafted,
everything went back to business as usual. There were no riots or
sore losers. This is what the parliamentary system calls the "loyal
opposition", where the loser is expected to remain loyal to the
government of the country after the election. That didn't happen in
2020 and that bothers me.

[John B.]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2022 20:21:17 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I suspect that a great deal of it is a result of the, what appears to
be, an overwhelming arrogance on the part of the yellow gnome.

What other U.S. President has said, in public, that he can "stand on
New York’s Fifth Avenue “and shoot somebody” and still not lose
voters" or that "You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can
do anything.”

And even more appalling, a great many people applaud him.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tommy willfully ignores the fact that the CDC broke covid out as as it's own cause of death and does not include it in the 'other respiratory disease' category. It's willfull stupidity on his part. Besides, I'm still waiting for him to post a link where trump said the vaccines don't work.

[AMuzi]

Except that facile 'explanations' are a continuation of the
process. Hint: The Communists did not in fact burn the
Reichstag either.

[Frank Krygowski]

Overwhelming arrogance coupled with a brat's tantrum at losing.

As others have said, if Trump were less over-privileged, some of this
behavior might have been quashed by the other kids in kindergarten.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

One of the signs of a complete ass is someone who uses "fact check" sites to "prove" things he doesn't know about. https://www.newsbusters.org/fact-checkers shows a large array of the fact checkers outright lying because it is their political belief rather than the truth. When Trump was President I watched him say something completely and then watched fucking liars like you repeat the Slime Stream Media claims that he said something else. What did you prove your damned lies with? Factcheck.com who also repeated the fucking lies. This is your entire life Frank. To follow the creed of Goebbels - If you tell a large enough lie enough times, it becomes the truth. You are nothing more than the NAZI you have shown yourself to be. Now why don't you tell us that NAZI's weren't communists when both are socialists or rather tyrants like you want this world to live under? I wonder what it feels like to not give a damn what you say about others.

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, what changed is that Dr. Scott Atlas looked into the REAL hosp0italizations and discovered a sharp lack of deaths. He informed Trum0p of Fauci's lies and Trump began changing his mind about the danger of a disease with fewer deaths than a seasonal influenza. But don't worry. Even the inventor of mRNA vaccines has said that Fauci is a liar. Do you suppose that is because for every vaccine they sell he gets a percentage so he wants to reduce his income? Or maybe because he knows the possible dangers from mRNA vaccines.

[Tom Kunich]

If Trump decides to run for the House this year, that will make him speaker of the House with almost total control. This will give him the ability to impeach Biden and Harris and become the de facto President until the 2024 election. What are you going to say about the overwhelming majority that the Republicans are going to have? Are you then going to tell us that the electorate are all fools and the only one that knows anything is you? That is your modus operandi.

[John B.]

There is a saying which apparently was first stated by Francis Bacon
some 400 years ago which states that:

“Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true.”

Which obviously is still true today.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Ah yes... good old Dr. Scott Atlas:

In September 2020, 78 of Atlas's former colleagues at the Stanford
Medical School signed an open letter criticizing Atlas, writing that
he had made "falsehoods and misrepresentations of science" that "run
counter to established science" and "undermine public health
authorities and the credible science that guides effective public
health policy."

Atlas's comment urging Michiganders to "rise up" against measures to
prevent COVID-19 transmission was widely condemned by health
professionals and by Stanford University, home of the Hoover Institute
where Atlas is a senior fellow.

I November 2020, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer denounced the
tweet as "incredibly reckless" and Fauci said: "I totally disagree
with it, and I made no secret of that. ...

he Stanford University Faculty Senate, by an 85% vote, adopted a
resolution condemning Atlas for his actions that "promote a view of
COVID-19 that contradicts medical science." The resolution cited
Atlas's statements and said they endangered the public.

Certainly recognized by his fellows as the perfect paragon of truth.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 4:33:30 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Really, it is time to wake up and smell the coffee. 900,000 extra deaths would fill graveyards with funeral services,

https://fox59.com/news/eskenazi-using-refrigerated-truck-to-store-the-dead-as-covid-19-hospitalizations-reach-record-levels/
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/refrigerated-trucks-arrive-in-l-a-as-bodies-pile-up-at-hospital-morgues-amid-rising-covid-19-death-toll/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nyc-dead-stay-in-freezer-trucks-set-up-during-spring-covid-19-surge-11606050000
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-01-07/national-guard-refrigerated-trucks-help-manage-covid-deaths
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-new-york/bodies-found-in-unrefrigerated-trucks-in-new-york-during-covid-19-pandemic-idUSKBN22C0E3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3NoR2k_H0U
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/26/nyregion/frozen-bodies-coronavirus-brooklyn.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-hospitals-refrigerated-coolers-stories-bodies-morgues-are-full-2021-8
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/oregon/articles/2021-08-28/oregon-counties-request-trucks-for-bodies-as-deaths-climb
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2021/09/03/capital-regional-meidcal-center-coronavirus-covid-tallahassee-tmh-deaths-hospital/5712600001/
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/cowlitz-county-morgue-truck-covid-deaths/283-69c8508f-f237-4019-a3c6-134210d00423
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-arizona-coronavirus-deaths-refrigerated-trucks-morgues/
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/texas-brings-in-refrigerated-trucks-to-store-dead-u-s-shatters-single-day-record-for-coronavirus-cases

Dead bodies from Covid were being stored in refrigeration trucks in all states. Los Angeles, New York City, Oregon, Florida, Texas, Indiana, Tennessee, etc. Everywhere. As for filling graveyards with funeral services, during the Covid rush, there were no public gatherings allowed so no funerals took place. Only immediate next of kin attended funerals. No big mass wakes of everyone and anyone showing up at the funeral home for the viewing. Limited to no viewing and only immediate family at funerals.

[Tom Kunich]

Russy baby, considering that the average age of death of covid-19 patients is 82 and with between one and eight comorbidities you sure must believe that your world is full of old people that require refrigerator trucks to contain the bodies. Apparently there is no end to the lies that you will believe.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

speaking of a brat having a temper tantrum....

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom's problem is not just the fact checkers. It's much deeper than that.

Reality itself is obviously biased against Tom.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

He still hasn't squared "Trump put the vaccines on the fast track and so HE DID help develop them you idiot. " with his claim that trump said the vaccine was killing more than it saved.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 9, 2022 at 1:55:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>

> One of the signs of a complete ass is someone who uses "fact check" sites to "prove" things he doesn't know about. https://www.newsbusters.org/fact-checkers shows a large array of the fact checkers outright lying because it is their political belief rather than the truth.

One of the signs of a deluded half-wit is someone who uses 'fact checking the fact checke'r websites to sustain their lie that fact checkers are all lying because they contradict the deluded half-wits' political belief.

> When Trump was President I watched him say something completely and then watched fucking liars like you repeat the Slime Stream Media claims that he said something else.

His own words were repeated - no one made anything up. Yes, it was a vast left-wing conspiracy called 'Operation: Just Let Him Talk'.

> What did you prove your damned lies with? Factcheck.com who also repeated the fucking lies.

Factcheck.com didn't repeat anything. Factcheck.com doesn't exist - idiot. Try it yourself: www.factcheck.com

> This is your entire life Frank. To follow the creed of Goebbels - If you tell a large enough lie enough times, it becomes the truth.

Like, Obama created the great recession; all democrats are racist nazis; covid doesn't exist; the vaccine kills more that covid (https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/12/24/trump-tells-candace-owens-that-covid-19-vaccines-work-one-of-the-greatest-achievements-of-mankind); we could go on...

> You are nothing more than the NAZI you have shown yourself to be.

lol...sure his is sparky (someones a little triggered this morning)

> Now why don't you tell us that NAZI's weren't communists when both are socialists or rather tyrants like you want this world to live under?

Political science - something else tommy thinks he understands......

> I wonder what it feels like to not give a damn what you say about others.

You tell us, you're the one foaming at the mouth here.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Of course tommy provides nothing to support his claim that none of these deaths really happened (other than his complete misinterpretation of the CDC "excess deaths" webpage).

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, what would you know about reality? You seem entirely incapable of coming up with any citations on any of the crap that you seem to think you're the expert on. It must be pretty egotistical to think that you can say something and not provide a single reference for. Oh, that's right, I forget that you're the teacher. I wonder how long your retirement pay is going to allow you to survive.

[Tom Kunich]

Hey Flunky, you're so screwed up you don't even know what was said by whom about what. Congratulations, no wonder that you can't even manage technicians.

[Tom Kunich]

https://nypost.com/2021/03/15/washington-post-runs-correction-admitting-it-misquoted-trump/
https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-cnn-fact-check-democrats-misquoted-call-zelensky-mark-up-escobar-jackson-lee
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/donald-trump-misquoted-on-relationship-with-kim-jong-un-claims-white-house-1800025

We could go on and on. But you're not bright enough to understand any of this. Let's face if Flunky - you're a moron

[Tom Kunich]

I'm misinterpreting a page that says, "Total number of deaths above average since 2/1/2020, by cause of death" which then shows the number to be 7100 in two years. Does it hurt for you to be so stupid?

[Tom Kunich]

By the way Flunky - https://www.mizzima.com/article/lawyers-expose-alleged-covid-19-fraud-and-vaccine-danger

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

You wrote:
"Trump put the vaccines on the fast track and so HE DID help develop them you idiot."

you also wrote:
"Unlike you little mindless followers, Trump has the ability to learn." in response to me posting a link of trump telling people to get the vaccine. (then skulking away when I posted a link showing he said it again 6 weeks ago)
You're obviously under the delusion that trump said the vaccines don't work. He said the exact opposite.

So, who is it that doesn't know who said what?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

And of course, you're too stupid to understand the difference between making things up (lying) and misquoting/making a mistake. Let's face it, you're a loud mouthed asshole.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yup, you're misinterpreting that. It's been explained to you a dozen times that covid isn't included in 'other respiratory' in that chart. Covid has it's own classification. You aren't just stupid, you're an asshole about being stupid.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 4:25:13 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 1:23:02 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> By the way Flunky - https://www.mizzima.com/article/lawyers-expose-alleged-covid-19-fraud-and-vaccine-danger

By the way shitferbrains https://medika.life/reiner-fuellmich-fact-checked-and-exposed-as-a-covid-conspiracy-con/

Fuellmich is a conman just like your god trump.