Carbon frame structural integrity

[AMuzi]

https://cyclingindustry.news/cycle-inspect-and-unsw-to-delve-into-how-carbon-fibre-bicycles-handle-damage/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

As I've said, it is possible to build very long lived carbon fiber structures by using heavy layups that do not flex or by using flexible resins that take a very long time to degrade. But race bikes have to be both strong, inflexible and light. This greatly limits the useful life of the structure. Colnago states that the safe lifespan of their carbon bikes is two years though due to US law they give a 3 year warranty. Specialized is made in Taiwan and they are the most experienced race bike builders. Due to lawsuits from their own race teams, S-works bikes are no longer superlight. Trek offers a lifetime warranty but with a catch - people who buy top end bikes buy new ones often - others do not use them.

I did not like my superlight Look KG 585 because it would jump around on the road from my pedaling. Particularly on very steep climbs. And size makes a substantial difference in weight of these structures. It would be difficult to buy another 60 cm bike as light as that 58 cm Look. Not to mention that a flat kit and water bottle add a lb and a half to a bike.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:39:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://cyclingindustry.news/cycle-inspect-and-unsw-to-delve-into-how-carbon-fibre-bicycles-handle-damage/

We've been here before. Is there something wrong with the existing
methods, test equipment and services?
<https://ruckuscomp.com/inspection/>
<https://www.olympus-ims.com/en/insight/ruckus-composites-inspects-thousands-of-bikes-with-one-ultrasonic-thickness-gage/>
<https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/using-nondestructive-testing-to-inspect-repair-carbon-fiber-bicycles>
<https://carbon-bike-check.com>
<https://www.spydercomposites.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff, you do not ride bikes. You most assuredly have never ridden a carbon fiber bike. Will you please stop telling other people that it is perfectly OK to risk their lives on a material that has shown itself to be possibly deadly by delaminating catastrophically? This is NOT your life on the line and carbon fiber already has an entire industry telling everyone that it is perfectly safe.

Lou is willing to take his own chances and MTBs can be made quite heavy and safe without anyone knowing because all of the accoutrements are already heavy. But Road bikes as Colnago says - have a very limited lifespan. Quit pushing something you have no personal knowledge of nor any desire to have any.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 18:44:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 5:58:13?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:39:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >https://cyclingindustry.news/cycle-inspect-and-unsw-to-delve-into-how-carbon-fibre-bicycles-handle-damage/
>>
>> We've been here before. Is there something wrong with the existing
>> methods, test equipment and services?
>> <https://ruckuscomp.com/inspection/>
>> <https://www.olympus-ims.com/en/insight/ruckus-composites-inspects-thousands-of-bikes-with-one-ultrasonic-thickness-gage/>
>> <https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/using-nondestructive-testing-to-inspect-repair-carbon-fiber-bicycles>
>> <https://carbon-bike-check.com>
>> <https://www.spydercomposites.com>
>>

>Jeff, you do not ride bikes.

True. I can only ride one bike at a time.

>You most assuredly have never ridden a carbon fiber bike. Will you please stop telling other people that it is perfectly OK to risk their lives on a material that has shown itself to be possibly deadly by delaminating catastrophically? This is NOT your life on the line and carbon fiber already has an entire industry telling everyone that it is perfectly safe.
>
>Lou is willing to take his own chances and MTBs can be made quite heavy and safe without anyone knowing because all of the accoutrements are already heavy. But Road bikes as Colnago says - have a very limited lifespan. Quit pushing something you have no personal knowledge of nor any desire to have any.

Where in what I wrote did I mention that carbon fiber is safe? Perhaps
you were reading between my lines. I asked Andrew if there was
something wrong with the existing inspection methods, test equipment
and services. It seems (to me) that the article is proposing a CF
inspection and certification authority. You're not safe unless you
have your CF bicycle inspected by them.

"...specifically the evaluation of carbon fibre bicycles currently in
use by the general public, the analysis of the broader health and
financial impacts and risks related to structural failures of carbon
fibre bicycle frames and components, and the correlation between
various forms of visible and underlying damage (sustained via impact,
manufacturing processes) and failure risk."

It would seem that the researchers believe that some CF bicycles are
dangerous and need to be inspected and identified. The article also
looks like an advertisement for Cycle Impact:
<https://www.cycleinspect.com>

[John B.]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 18:44:55 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Goodness! You are telling us that carbon stuff "delaminating
catastrophically" and they make airplanes with the stuff.

"The
chief breakthrough material technology on the 787 is the increased
use of composites. The 787 is 50 percent composite by weight. A
majority of the primary structure is made of composite materials, most
notably the fuselage."
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/by-design/#/advanced-composite-use

--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I've been riding/racing carbon bikes for the past 15 years, literally alongside hundreds of other riders in the local races, literally bumping shoulders in 30 MPH corners, hitting potholes, etc, amateurs like me who keep that same bike for many years. The vast majority of frames in my local events are carbon and have been for well over a decade - including CX races. I know _of_ two incidents where something carbon broke and the rider was injured. One was attributed to a defective fork and the other was from a handlebar that was overtightened. I've never seen it happen firsthand. I'm willing to tell people that Carbon frames are completely safe, and any issues of something breaking through fatigue are way overblown. Besides, didn't you tell us what a great deal you got on a set of cheap chinese carbon wheels? Why is it ok to ride shit wheels, but high-end carbon frames are inherently dangerous?

[William Crowell]

OTOH Victor Davis Hanson, the noted commentator, had an idiopathic failure of the carbon forks on his road bike a few years ago and was seriously injured.

[Frank Krygowski]

And we had a sudden complete failure of our tandem's steel forks. No
serious injuries, though.

Stuff happens, but fortunately it rarely happens.

I'm not particularly interested in CF bike bits, but I don't think
they're inherently dangerous. Tom is just being Tom.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 7/14/2023 5:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 10:39:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> https://cyclingindustry.news/cycle-inspect-and-unsw-to-delve-into-how-carbon-fibre-bicycles-handle-damage/
>
> We've been here before. Is there something wrong with the existing
> methods, test equipment and services?
> <https://ruckuscomp.com/inspection/>
> <https://www.olympus-ims.com/en/insight/ruckus-composites-inspects-thousands-of-bikes-with-one-ultrasonic-thickness-gage/>
> <https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/using-nondestructive-testing-to-inspect-repair-carbon-fiber-bicycles>
> <https://carbon-bike-check.com>
> <https://www.spydercomposites.com>

The key takeaway is not to buy a used CF bicycle unless you're prepared
to spend the money to have the frame, fork, and other components.,
tested for hidden defects, and if you buy a new CF bicycle have it
tested periodically for latent defects.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Roger Meriman]

I have seen frames damaged by a fall, was a heavy guy on the seat stays
which did crack.

But that is probably outside of it’s designed use ie was a road bike not
intended to be fallen on!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Scharf, there you go again with your tinfoil hat statements - you CANNOT test a carbon frame adequately with the equipment that is cheap enough for bicycle manufacturers to obtain. So instead, the prefer to focus on quality control and believing that people don't make mistakes and trap an air bubble here or there. You cannot use a pinpoint ultrasonic tester to test an entire frame. It would require scanning electron microscopes and very good software to detect voids or loose ends in the layup. The bicycle business is simply not profitable enough to afford that sort of testing.

Trek builds their bikes in pieces and puts them together in high pressure presses. While this gives good quality MOST of the time, it is not infallible as shown by failures of the latest top of the line bikes such as the CF Emondas and Modones. And the Domane which is probably built heavier since it is now considered their gravel model while before it was a road only bike.

Unfortunately, you cannot trust quality control no matter how careful you are.

Please do not imply that somehow there are experts at everything you ever want to know. It is difficult finding real experts for very important things - There is NO climate change - during the last Ice Age there were very few plants and the CO2 levels were 4 time the volume they are now. This is shown by the Stomata of fossilized leaves from the period.

And we have Anthony Fauci patenting SARS viruses long before they could infect humans meaning that he was ALREADY using gain of function to invent biowarfare agents in direct contradiction of UN agreements. So WHERE do you suggest you find an "expert" when Fauci stood before a Congressional investigation committee saying that he did not pay for gain of function research and this just happened to come from a bat in a cave 200 miles from where the first cases occurred? Until Fauci SARS was not a human infecting virus.

Biden is stumbling around and bumping into everything and falling down. The Secret Service then says that they will not open an investigation of the source of cocaine found in the inner sanctum. This isn't from Hunter because the Secret Service does not answer to Biden except to PROTECT the President. So they know who it came from. If it were Hunter they would have a responsibility to charge him.

I suggest you not talk about experts because you wouldn't know one if he was standing on your foot.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 6:28:20 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Please do not imply that somehow there are experts at everything you ever want to know. It is difficult finding real experts for very important things ...

Nonsense! It's very easy to find a real expert on carbon fiber, on bike transmissions, on medical topics,
on history, on theology, on climate, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, education, and
anything else you ever want to know. Just consult Tom!

(That was a joke, Tom.)

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 21:54:29 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 7/15/2023 12:19 PM, William Crowell wrote:

Out of curiosity I looked up how composite aircraft components are
inspected and apparently they use thermography testing. So I looked
that up and for humans the cost of in the $100 - $200 range and I
found a site inspecting houses (didn't say exactly what) for 350
Pounds.

So bike inspection should be possible and not excessively expensive.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

More sporty focused riders I know certainly have had frames repaired and
buy frames 2nd hand.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, the joke is that you believe that a college degree gives you real knowledge. Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach.

[Tom Kunich]

The problem is that carbon fiber has a relatively short but unknown lifetime. I rode my 40 year old steel bike today and hit some potholes at speed. You wouldn't want to do that with a carbon fiber racing bike because you don't know what would happen.

You would probably be lucky and have nothing happen but how old are you and what chances are you willing to take? Most of my ride today was at 4-5 mph up some 10% hills. But there were several 35-40 mph descents. Knowing that I've had a carbon fiber fork fall apart and that the entire fork tube fell off my friend's Colnago C40, are you willing to possibly spend a month or two in a hospital for showing courage rather than good sense?

Flunky raced supposedly on carbon fiber bikes. And since he was lucky so far he argues that his bikes will last forever. We'll see.

DO NOT ride a frame repaired with that carbon paste.

[Frank Krygowski]

I have "done" and I have taught, Tom. I had professional engineering licenses in two states. Look up the
requirements for that license - it's not easy to earn.

And once again: You have never been in an engineering classroom. You have absolutely no idea what
goes on in such a place. But as always, you present yourself as an authority on that, as well as
every other subject.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 19:44:56 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 3:57:12?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 6:17:30?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> > On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 6:28:20?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Please do not imply that somehow there are experts at everything you ever want to know. It is difficult finding real experts for very important things ...
>> >
>> > Nonsense! It's very easy to find a real expert on carbon fiber, on bike transmissions, on medical topics,
>> > on history, on theology, on climate, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, education, and
>> > anything else you ever want to know. Just consult Tom!
>> >
>> > (That was a joke, Tom.)
>> >
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> Frank, the joke is that you believe that a college degree gives you real knowledge. Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach.
>
>I have "done" and I have taught, Tom. I had professional engineering licenses in two states. Look up the
>requirements for that license - it's not easy to earn.

<EYEROLL>

>And once again: You have never been in an engineering classroom. You have absolutely no idea what
>goes on in such a place. But as always, you present yourself as an authority on that, as well as
>every other subject.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Ring the irony bell, again.

[Lou Holtman]

Carbon paste? That stuff is used on CF handebars, CF seatposts and such to prevent slipping with a reduced tightening torque. It is not used to repair frames.

Lou

[John B.]

"you present yourself as an authority on that..."

I like that, although it rather ludicrous coming from someone who has
enthroned himself as an expert on firearms... based on "well, I shot a
.22 a couple of times".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

lol...floriduh dumbass thinks derision based in ignorance is justifiable criticism.

[Frank Krygowski]

Point #1:

John, by your standards, you've enthroned yourself as an authority on AR
rifles. Yet you do not own one. You've never mentioned shooting one.

Will your own standards now stop you from discussing them?

Point #2:

Personally, I've never said I was an expert on any type of gun. I can't
discuss bullet mass, powder mass, gun mechanics etc. That's your specialty.

But I can and have discussed the obvious effects of America's wild
proliferation of combat-style guns. When a person like you _pretends_ to
confuse those with hunting rifles, it doesn't take a gun fetishist to
point out the deception.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Someone here quoted a Youtube video of a "testing and repair company for carbon fiber frames and forks". They showed a repair of a break in a frame using carbon fiber strands and resin and smoothing it into the hole. I was shocked that they thought that might be a reliable repair.

[Tom Kunich]

There are shooting competitions between the services. As far as I can remember, John never claimed to be an expert at anything other than a pistol. But since that was at the time of Vietnam it would have been pretty difficult NOT to know pretty much everything there is to know about an M16 (note that this is NOT an AR15). Please stop calling AR15's automatic weapons. It is nothing more than a military looking semiautomatic rifle that is no different than any other over-the-counter semiautomatic and most people can fire a pistol faster. The overwhelming numbers of gun deaths are not with rifles and pointing out the one or two exceptions doesn't make you somehow correct that they are dangerous weapons. ALL GUNS are dangerous weapons and that is why we have the 2nd Amendment which you think we should throw out with the bathwater.

That you are both ridiculous and totally wrong is shown by the contents if the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America and scrutinized by an overwhelming majority of the Supreme Court of the United States. Do not pretend that passing gun control laws is not attempting to override the Constitution.

You are a coward and believe that denying the deep thoughts and considerations of the founders of this country were simply wrong. Of course they are to someone who loves a government in full control of the citizens. Watch what happens in this coming election because of people like you.

[Catrike Rider]

One can be an expert on something without owning or using it. On the
other hand, krygowski's ignorance about guns is well documented.

[John B.]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 14:04:12 -0400, Catrike Rider

The more Frankie posts the more he resembles Tom's more demented
posts.

But lets see, Expert on AR type.... Nope, never made that claim
although I guess I could call myself an expert on the M-16 as I did
fire the first versions that the A.F. bought and later had one in my
possession for more then a year in 'nam.

But that isn't the point at all. One doesn't need to be an expert on
any type of forearm to speak intelligently about it. The AR, for
example is a light weight, semi automatic, gas operated, rifle, with
a removable magazine. Magazines holding from 5 rounds and larger are
available and the firearm is made in various calibers.

And to go on....what is an expert? A chap that can fire one
accurately? A bloke that can fix one when it's broke? Or, perhaps a
bloke that knows nothing about firearms at all... well except that
they go Bang.?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 7:08:32 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> >>John, by your standards, you've enthroned yourself as an authority on AR
> >>rifles. Yet you do not own one. You've never mentioned shooting one.
> >
> >One can be an expert on something without owning or using it.
>

> But lets see, Expert on AR type.... Nope, never made that claim

OK, we'll remember that. You're not an expert on ARs.

> One doesn't need to be an expert on
> any type of forearm to speak intelligently about it.

Especially, one does not need to know the details you specialize in to understand
the societal impact of gun proliferation. It doesn't matter if the caliber is 20% bigger
or smaller. It doesn't matter if the firing rate is 30% more or less. It doesn't matter what
the precise inner workings may be.

Timid gun fetishists have generated a culture of fear ("I _gotta_ have a gun for protection!!!")
and saturated the country with firearms intended to kill bad guys. The result has been
many murders of very ordinary people.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine and makes you want to deny the Constitution.

So while the rest of us are living in ghettos with audible gunfire every night you can believe that all of the world is like 99% white Poland, OH.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...

The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.

> and makes you want to deny the Constitution.

You have a very, very simplistic understanding of the Constitution.

> So while the rest of us are living in ghettos with audible gunfire every night you can believe that all of the world is like 99% white Poland, OH.

I'd think a purported millionaire would move to someplace that he wouldn't feel compelled to
complain about so often!

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 7:08:32?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>
>> >>John, by your standards, you've enthroned yourself as an authority on AR
>> >>rifles. Yet you do not own one. You've never mentioned shooting one.
>> >
>> >One can be an expert on something without owning or using it.
>>
>> But lets see, Expert on AR type.... Nope, never made that claim
>
>OK, we'll remember that. You're not an expert on ARs.

Well, actually, he merely said he never made that claim

>> One doesn't need to be an expert on
>> any type of forearm to speak intelligently about it.
>
>Especially, one does not need to know the details you specialize in to understand
>the societal impact of gun proliferation. It doesn't matter if the caliber is 20% bigger
>or smaller. It doesn't matter if the firing rate is 30% more or less. It doesn't matter what
>the precise inner workings may be.
>
>Timid gun fetishists have generated a culture of fear ("I _gotta_ have a gun for protection!!!")
>and saturated the country with firearms intended to kill bad guys. The result has been
>many murders of very ordinary people.

Speaking of timid people generating a culture of fear, just recently
you doing that regarding having a gun in your home.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
>
>The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.

In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
a gun in their home...

[Lou Holtman]

English is not my native language but I'm sure both of you are using the word coward in the wrong way.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:07:12 AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
> >
> >The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.
>
> In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
> a gun in their home...

So a person who has enough self-confidence and trust to realize they don't need fire arm for protection is a coward.....Typical floriduh logic.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 02:41:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<EYEROLL> Trust in what, Dummy?


...and in my opinion, only a total moron would claim that
self-confidence alone is a defensive strategy.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 6:46:29 AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 02:41:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:07:12?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
> >> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
> >> >
> >> >The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.
> >>
> >> In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
> >> a gun in their home...
> >
> >So a person who has enough self-confidence and trust to realize they don't need fire arm for protection is a coward.....Typical floriduh logic.
> <EYEROLL> Trust in what, Dummy?

Oh, right, I forgot, You live in such a state of constant fear that you have no trust in anyone including yourself.

> ...and in my opinion, only a total moron would claim that
> self-confidence alone is a defensive strategy.

And only a total moron (aka, a floriduh dumbass) would would get that from what I wrote.

[John B.]

Well, perhaps the question is whether home owners are timid as Frank
terms....

Again from the FBI data where were 584,009 Aggravated Assault in 2021,
316,997 of which occurred in residence/home.Or, 54% of the total. I
leave it up to the house holder to determine whether defense is proper
or not.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I think I can speak for most people here that we don't live in ghettos with gunfire every night.
Tommy, you repeatedly remind us how rich you are. If you're living in a ghetto with gunfire every night, why don't you move? Pick a nice conservative community with a low cost of living and good roads for cycling. Shasta county voted for Trump, and is considered the most conservative county in the state. I'm sure you'd find kindred spirits there to commiserate when trump loses again. Also, the median house price is about $450K - you could sell your ~$1m dollar home in that ghetto and move to a nice conservative country lifestyle with great roads in the mountains.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:15:06 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 6:46:29?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 02:41:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:07:12?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
>> >> >
>> >> >The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.
>> >>
>> >> In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
>> >> a gun in their home...
>> >
>> >So a person who has enough self-confidence and trust to realize they don't need fire arm for protection is a coward.....Typical floriduh logic.
>> <EYEROLL> Trust in what, Dummy?
>
>Oh, right, I forgot, You live in such a state of constant fear that you have no trust in anyone including yourself.

<SNORT> Trust myself? ......to do what?

...and who or what do you think a person should trust to protect them?

>> ...and in my opinion, only a total moron would claim that
>> self-confidence alone is a defensive strategy.
>
>And only a total moron (aka, a floriduh dumbass) would would get that from what I wrote.

Well, that exactly what you did write, Dummy.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 18:48:12 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Well, he is, apparently. Why else would he insist that people should
be fearful of having a gun in their home unless he himself was fearful
of it?

[AMuzi]

On 7/19/2023 10:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Let's consult the players rather than sideline observers:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-young-people-carry-guns-out-of-fear-for-their-lives-safety-of-their-families-20230717-yiisslekyffd7ak5ztn3gum6a4-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:09:07 AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass displayed his 4th grade reading comprehension :

lol...sure, dumbass, and "the AR-15 was a weapon the military never wonted and never used"....HAH!

[Frank Krygowski]

Yep. People carry guns because they are afraid.

What are they afraid of? Mostly, other people carrying guns.

It's a national insanity. This happens far, far less in other prosperous
countries.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/20/2023 7:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Timid gun fetishists have generated a culture of fear ("I _gotta_ have a gun for protection!!!")
>>> and saturated the country with firearms intended to kill bad guys. The result has been
>>> many murders of very ordinary people.
>>
>

> Well, perhaps the question is whether home owners are timid as Frank
> terms....
>
> Again from the FBI data where were 584,009 Aggravated Assault in 2021,
> 316,997 of which occurred in residence/home.Or, 54% of the total.

Those are mostly family members assaulting other family members, men
assaulting the women they live with, etc. Look it up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I think it would be better to put quotation marks around "logic."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:07:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/20/2023 9:23 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/19/2023 10:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

...and some very timid people, such as you, are even afraid to have a
gun in their home.

>What are they afraid of? Mostly, other people carrying guns.

No, I don't believe the guy who attacked me had a gun. If he did, I
didn't see it.

[Catrike Rider]

Another opinion expressed as a fact.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:09:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/20/2023 5:41 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:07:12?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
>>>>
>>>> The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
>>> a gun in their home...
>>
>> So a person who has enough self-confidence and trust to realize they don't need fire arm for protection is a coward.....Typical floriduh logic.
>
>I think it would be better to put quotation marks around "logic."

In my opinion, anyone who believes that self-confidence and trust in
something or other is a good substitute for a defence strategy has no
business talking about logic.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I generally do when using a term sarcastically, I just spaced it that time.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Another floriduh dumbass opinion expressed with no basis in fact. Point to any post from anyone here that claims self confidence is a substitute for a defense strategy.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:09:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/20/2023 5:41 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:07:12?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
>>>>
>>>> The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
>>> a gun in their home...
>>
>> So a person who has enough self-confidence and trust to realize they don't need fire arm for protection is a coward.....Typical floriduh logic.
>
>I think it would be better to put quotation marks around "logic."

That's from the timid little guy who tried to frighten people about
having a gun in their home, and then illogically (and most likely
dishonestly) claimed to have had a gun in his home.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

assumes facts not in evidence

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 11:24:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"I've had a gun in my home"
--Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/owo0ZrydV8E/m/vwCQ__f6BQAJ

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

It's not a fact that he attempted to frighten anyone, or that it was either illogical or dishonest - that's just you being an asshole. IOW, your usual ignorant floriduh dumbass opinion.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm seeing hundreds of words of evasion, of efforts to avoid saying
the
obvious: In John's situation, having a gun nearby would have made
matters worse.

It smacks of a religious commandment - or more accurately, idolatry.
"Thou shalt not speak irreverently of the golden idol, the gun."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9715182/
Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a
fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide
attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

https://time.com/6183881/gun-ownership-risks-at-home/
People living with handgun owners died by homicide at twice the rate
of
their neighbors in gun-free homes. That difference was driven largely
by
homicides at home, which were three times more common among people
living with handgun owners. ... people living with handgun owners were
seven times more likely to be shot by their spouse or intimate
partner.
In many of these cases, instead of being protective, the household gun
probably operated as the instrument of death.

But "Thou shalt not speak irreverently about guns."

--
- Frank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/SJRhjDxotCo/m/VtWEmTWhAwAJ

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 4:34:59 PM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass cut-n-pasted without context:

Well, scared little kitty, if a report showing statistics scares you, that's _your_ problem. It still does doesn't demonstrate any factual basis to "That's from the timid little guy who tried to frighten people about having a gun in their home, and then illogically (and most likely dishonestly) claimed to have had a gun in his home."

It seems we need to break it down for you since you're having trouble with it:

"timid little guy" - subjective assessment on your part.
"who tried to frighten people about having a gun in their home," - subjective assessment on your part.
" illogically (and most likely dishonestly) claimed to have had a gun in his home." - That he claimed to have a gun at one time in his home is a fact. That you suggested it was dishonest is subjective, that you claim it is is illogical is subjective.

It assumes facts not in evidence.

Q.E.D., dumbass.

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 8:45:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
>
> The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.

> > and makes you want to deny the Constitution.

> You have a very, very simplistic understanding of the Constitution.
> > So while the rest of us are living in ghettos with audible gunfire every night you can believe that all of the world is like 99% white Poland, OH.
> I'd think a purported millionaire would move to someplace that he wouldn't feel compelled to
> complain about so often!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

The Constitution was written as simplistic as possible so that there would be no questions what your rights are. But the Democrats have been questioning the Constitution since the first word was written. I know you would prefer and entirely new Constitution that put the people like Fauci in charge of everything and you wouldn't have to think for yourself and instead just follow orders. But that is why I made more in one week than you made in a month. The ability to think is something you were born without. Instead you shouted on about lines in a text book and called it "education" when it was communist indoctrination.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell everyone here exactly who you are trusting? Your local Fentanyl addict? Or perhaps you couldn't recognize one? The military was bringing people back from Afghanistan and Iraq with grave injuries. In the field the only way to keep them quiet and somewhat comfortable was synthetic opiates or the real thing. Then in the states they were already addicts and to keep them quiet again they had bowls of Fentanyl next to their beds so that they were on one continuous high. These people were discharged with no way of getting the drugs they were addicted to and you are a way that they can pay for it. Keep pretending that you can recognize an addict until you say the wrong thing to one of them and they stick a knife in your guts. Almost none of them have guns because they could sell one for another two pills.

I find it fascinating just how naïve that you and Frank are. Even Liebermann knows better than to even mention pain killers of any sort.

[Tom Kunich]

Unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that unless you want to move to the wilds of Utah, you cannot escape violence. I have no intentions of being chased from my home while you're suggesting that you would run with your tail between your legs. Because you have no money you believe that money will solve any problems. I'm afraid that you will never grow up and that you will remain stupid for the rest of your life. Well, don't worry, you were vaccinated by Pfizer and will turn out to be one of those excess deaths that they claim have nothing to do with Covid-19. In the last seconds of your life you can remember to say that Fauci had nothing to so with SARS-Cov-2 even though he owns the patent on it.

[Tom Kunich]

There we have it, straight from the mouth of the play racer - he was in the military so he knows everything about the AR-15 and its precise match to the M16. That is except for the barrel, caliber, entire firing mechanism and stock and flash housing.

Why, I'll bet that he was advising the Pentagon at the time that the M16 was accepted. It's always nice getting the very words of the real experts on weapons that they have first hand experience with.

[Tom Kunich]

He must have been taking advice from another one of his good friends.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:24:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

His imaginary friends do tend to agree with him.

[John B.]

Well, as I have suggested to Frank more then a few times.... If guns
are so bad then gather your adherents and do away with the 2nd
amendment".

What Frank ignores is that he lives in a democracy where the majority
are the ones who call the shots. So if it should be quite simple to
amend the Constitution.... or can it be? That the majority of the
citizens don't give a rat's ass about Frank's opinions?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

If it is a "national insanity" then logically amending the
Constitution to remove the 2nd amendment must be sanity. So... why is
Frank so loath to do it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:57:50 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that unless you want to move to the wilds of Utah, you cannot escape violence.

What a fearful, fearful person! Tom, when can I expect this violence to arrive?

I've biked in places like Philadelphia, Indianapolis, Cleveland, LA, San Francisco, New Orleans,
Charlotte, Cincinnati, Memphis, Pittsburgh, Atlanta and countless others. I've never suffered
anything worse than some yelling by idiots. I've never suffered a burglary or other home invasion.

What makes gun fans so paranoid, so timid, so fearful?

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:06:10 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:07:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Yep. People carry guns because they are afraid.
> >

> >>What are they afraid of? Mostly, other people carrying guns.
> >

> >>It's a national insanity. This happens far, far less in other prosperous
> >>countries.
> If it is a "national insanity" then logically amending the
> Constitution to remove the 2nd amendment must be sanity. So... why is
> Frank so loath to do it?

What I said was that America can greatly improve it's gun problem without
repealing the 2nd amendment. It's not necessary to remove the 2nd amendment.

Don't trust your memory about what I've said, John. Like Tom, that causes you to
frequently make mistakes. This is the internet! Look back to see what was actually
posted!

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:34:03 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Assumes "facts" not in evidence...

But since you're the guy who is afraid to have a gun in your home....

....so what makes you anti-gun loons so paranoid, so timid, so
fearful?

>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:38:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

IN my opinion, the Second Amendment is quite secure, as are the people
who own AR15s.

As I've said, with Krygowski, it's not about guns, it's about his need
for attention.

which I'm happy to provide...

[John B.]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 06:47:54 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:09:07?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass displayed his 4th grade reading comprehension :

>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 04:15:06 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 6:46:29?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 02:41:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

>> >> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:07:12?AM UTC-4, Floriduh dumbass wrote:

>> >> >> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:45:16 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:30:59?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Frank, you cannot help that you are a creepy coward and that the very thought of a gun sends chills up and down your spine ...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The cowards are the ones afraid to leave their homes or ride their bikes without a gun.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In my opinion, the real cowards are the people who are afraid to have
>> >> >> a gun in their home...
>> >> >
>> >> >So a person who has enough self-confidence and trust to realize they don't need fire arm for protection is a coward.....Typical floriduh logic.

>> >> <EYEROLL> Trust in what, Dummy?
>> >
>> >Oh, right, I forgot, You live in such a state of constant fear that you have no trust in anyone including yourself.
>> <SNORT> Trust myself? ......to do what?
>>
>> ...and who or what do you think a person should trust to protect them?
>> >> ...and in my opinion, only a total moron would claim that
>> >> self-confidence alone is a defensive strategy.
>> >
>> >And only a total moron (aka, a floriduh dumbass) would would get that from what I wrote.
>> Well, that exactly what you did write, Dummy.
>
>lol...sure, dumbass, and "the AR-15 was a weapon the military never wonted and never used"....HAH!

That depends on which "AR" you are talking about, doesn't it. the
Military never even considered the AR Civilian version :-) And Yes
there were factions in the Military that opposed the original AR, just
as historically there has always been pro and con factions regarding
any new thing. There was a factions that opposed the M-1 Garand -
shoots too fast, have to carry too much ammunition,
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I didn't mention painkillers, you idiot. You did.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yup, it's a sport I play. Too bad you never had the cojones to mix it up with the pros in a pro-am criterium.

> he was in the military so he knows everything about the AR-15 and its precise match to the M16.

Don't need to have been in the military for that.

> That is except for the barrel, caliber, entire firing mechanism and stock and flash housing.

nope. When the military made the decision to adopt the AR-15 as their standard weapon, it became the M-16, it was simply a designation change.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a953110.pdf
Page 38
The AR15 was designated the standard basic weapon for the Air Force on 2 January 1962, and designated the M16 rifle by the Army 11 December 1963.

Page 146
Product Improvement Modifications
1. Major modifications have frequently not been supported by test data at the time of their approval. The majority of all modifications have been relatively minor - calling for dimensional and surface or material finish changes.

You, like floriduh dumbass and john are under the mistaken impression that the AR-15 available to civilians today was the same version adopted by the military in 1962. It isn't.

>
> Why, I'll bet that he was advising the Pentagon at the time that the M16 was accepted. It's always nice getting the very words of the real experts on weapons that they have first hand experience with.

I'm willing to bet I have as much experience with an M-16 as you do.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That's because the civilian version came after the military version was developed. You can read all about the development and history (including the political issues) of the AR-15 here
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a953110.pdf

> And Yes
> there were factions in the Military that opposed the original AR, just
> as historically there has always been pro and con factions regarding
> any new thing. There was a factions that opposed the M-1 Garand -
> shoots too fast, have to carry too much ammunition,

All well-detailed in the report linked above

> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

[AMuzi]

And, as Mr Stoner noted, M1 cartridges make a soldier's load
heavier besides the Garand mass itself.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/21/2023 4:20 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> But since you're the guy who is afraid to have a gun in your home....

I'm the guy who is brave enough to not need a gun in my home.

Today I'm planning a solo ride through the inner city, partly to visit a
new library on the far side of town. I'll be riding on <gasp!> ordinary
streets. Many of those streets will have <oh my!> people of other races
living there. I'll return by a different route <more hazards!>, again
through the city. And in the process, I'll be climbing out of the river
valley in both directions. <hills!>

As always, I won't be taking a gun.

There's no way Mr. Tricycle would have the courage, strength or
endurance to do this ride.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a953110.pdf

"The development of the AR15 rifle, was initiated in mid-1957 by Mr. Eugene Stoner of the Armalite Corporation, Costa Mesa, California, in response to a verbal request from General Wyman. The request, also made to other gun manufacturers, was for a new light-weight infantry rifle chambered for high velocity caliber .22 cartridges, The general specifications were: a maximum loaded weight of six pounds; a capability of firing semiautomatic or full automatic; a killing power equal to or better than that of the Ml (Garand) rifle up to 500 yards; and a capability of penetrating a steel helmet or standard body armor at 500 yards."

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me Frank, what makes you so afraid and fearful of the Constitution? Is it that you know that as long as you cannot eliminate the 2nd Amendment your communist propaganda has no chance whatsoever? That must make you feel very let down by your Democrat friends.

[Tom Kunich]

Then WHY aren't you doing it? Can it be that even your "friends" believe so strongly in the 2nd amendment that they would shoot you rather than allow your communist tendencies to dominate a country built on freedom? Just imagine the death of Frank at the hands of people he has been telling us are his friends.

[AMuzi]

On 7/21/2023 11:07 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

Yes that's all correct. And logical. As I recently noted
that trend continues into the NATO 5.7mm FN PS90.


Also, I am indebted to you for first pointing out to me here
that the nomenclature for the military version had begun as
AR-15 before changing to the more familiar M16, after which
the modern usage of "AR-15" for "semi civilian model" was
developed.

[Tom Kunich]

So despite knowing nothing about it you will tell us all you know.

[Tom Kunich]

Flunky is sure that an AR15 is an M16 despite the M16 having only a similar appearance and otherwise being a completely different weapon. He knows this because of his vast experience with guns. Perhaps one of Frank's "friends" told him all about it.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:50:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/21/2023 4:20 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>
>> But since you're the guy who is afraid to have a gun in your home....
>
>I'm the guy who is brave enough to not need a gun in my home.

No, you gave your gun away after someone told you that it was
dangerous to have one in your home.

>Today I'm planning a solo ride through the inner city, partly to visit a
>new library on the far side of town. I'll be riding on <gasp!> ordinary
>streets. Many of those streets will have <oh my!> people of other races
>living there. I'll return by a different route <more hazards!>, again
>through the city. And in the process, I'll be climbing out of the river
>valley in both directions. <hills!>

<chuckle> Oh my, you're riding to the other side of town, eh?

>As always, I won't be taking a gun.

Well, no, since you're more afraid of guns than you are of being
attacked. You're more afraid of guns than you are of somebody
breaking into your home. What a timid little pussy you are...

>There's no way Mr. Tricycle would have the courage, strength or
>endurance to do this ride.

I rode the streets of Madison Wisconsin many times long before I was
attacked and decided it was wise to carry a gun. In earlier times I
rode in Rockford, Illinois, and surounding areas. More recently,
Milwaukee, Beloit, Whitewater, and Janesville, Wisconsin. I've ridden
in Boulder, Estes Park, and Longmont, Colorado. In Florida, all around
Orlando, Brooksville, Sarasota, Tampa, St Pete, and Bradenton. I've
ridden in Key West and Key Largo, and everywhere between, and several
small towns in Ohio. all before I started carrying a gun.

As for strength and endurance, I rode 50 miles last Tuesday and 40
miles today, and I'm a few years older than you.. By the way there
are "hills" in Colorado and I was riding out there back when I was
your age. Check our the "hill" from Glen Haven, Colorado to Estes
Park.. That was 13 years ago when I was only 62 years old and I did
have to walk the borrowed two-wheeler through both swtchbacks.

Bottom line, I still outperform you, and I always will.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I know this because I research things rather than just pull "amazing facts" out of my ass:

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

You're welcome. I appreciate your willingness to consider facts as a more valid method of learning than emotion and political bias.

[Catrike Rider]

Correction.. I was 66 years old when I rode Glen Haven to Estes Park,
Colorado. Very steep.... Very beautiful...

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 1:48:26 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:50:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 7/21/2023 4:20 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>
> >> But since you're the guy who is afraid to have a gun in your home....
> >
> >I'm the guy who is brave enough to not need a gun in my home.
> No, you gave your gun away after someone told you that it was
> dangerous to have one in your home.

Assumes facts not in evidence. He gave his gun away, you assume it's because he thought it was unsafe.

> >Today I'm planning a solo ride through the inner city, partly to visit a
> >new library on the far side of town. I'll be riding on <gasp!> ordinary
> >streets. Many of those streets will have <oh my!> people of other races
> >living there. I'll return by a different route <more hazards!>, again
> >through the city. And in the process, I'll be climbing out of the river
> >valley in both directions. <hills!>
> <chuckle> Oh my, you're riding to the other side of town, eh?

<chuckle> oh gee, you're riding on secluded flat paved trails? how adventuresome!

> >As always, I won't be taking a gun.
> Well, no, since you're more afraid of guns than you are of being
> attacked. You're more afraid of guns than you are of somebody
> breaking into your home. What a timid little pussy you are...

LOL....someone who isn't so afraid to need a gun for protection is a timid little pussy.....What would you call a person so afraid of the big bad world that their afraid to go anywhere without a gun?

> >There's no way Mr. Tricycle would have the courage, strength or
> >endurance to do this ride.
> I rode the streets of Madison Wisconsin many times long before I was
> attacked and decided it was wise to carry a gun. In earlier times I
> rode in Rockford, Illinois, and surounding areas. More recently,
> Milwaukee, Beloit, Whitewater, and Janesville, Wisconsin. I've ridden
> in Boulder, Estes Park, and Longmont, Colorado. In Florida, all around
> Orlando, Brooksville, Sarasota, Tampa, St Pete, and Bradenton. I've
> ridden in Key West and Key Largo, and everywhere between, and several
> small towns in Ohio.

Such an imagination you have!! more wild stories from floriduh dumbass.

> all before I started carrying a gun.

One little incident when your shirt was torn and you resort to carrying a deadly weapon, What a timid little pussy you are...

>
> As for strength and endurance, I rode 50 miles last Tuesday and 40
> miles today, and I'm a few years older than you..

on a flat smooth paved bicycle trail on a tricycle. Color me unimpressed....

> By the way there
> are "hills" in Colorado and I was riding out there back when I was
> your age. Check our the "hill" from Glen Haven, Colorado to Estes
> Park.. That was 13 years ago when I was only 62 years old and I did
> have to walk the borrowed two-wheeler through both swtchbacks.

pussy.

>
> Bottom line, I still outperform you, and I always will.

Assumes facts not in evidence. More wild stories from a floriduh dumbass.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/21/2023 3:53 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 1:48:26 PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>
>> As for strength and endurance, I rode 50 miles last Tuesday and 40
>> miles today, and I'm a few years older than you..
>
> on a flat smooth paved bicycle trail on a tricycle. Color me unimpressed....

I learned a new term about a year ago. It refers to riders who brag
about their distances and speeds riding dead level (and socialistic!)
bike trails.

"Pathletes."

The word was used in a complaint about idiots who blast rapidly past
walkers, joggers, kids on bikes. The sentiment was if you want to ride
fast, grow a pair and get on a road where you won't endanger other trail
users.

It seems we have one pathlete in this discussion group. And not only is
he too timid for the road. He's too timid to ride even on a bike path
unless his gun is immediately ready.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Do you suppose that Frank is talking about another Poland, OH? When he says "dangerous" do you suppose he means that there might be someone there that doesn't like Pols?

[Tom Kunich]

Which is your preferred method.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 17:14:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/21/2023 3:53 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 1:48:26?PM UTC-4, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>
>>> As for strength and endurance, I rode 50 miles last Tuesday and 40
>>> miles today, and I'm a few years older than you..
>>
>> on a flat smooth paved bicycle trail on a tricycle. Color me unimpressed....
>
>I learned a new term about a year ago. It refers to riders who brag
>about their distances and speeds riding dead level (and socialistic!)
>bike trails.

socialistic?

>"Pathletes."
>
>The word was used in a complaint about idiots who blast rapidly past
>walkers, joggers, kids on bikes. The sentiment was if you want to ride
>fast, grow a pair and get on a road where you won't endanger other trail
>users.

90+ degrees today, 70% humidity, and last Wednesday, the only other
people I saw riding today and last Wednesday were peleton groups going
20/25 MPH. Once I hit the main trail where I ride, there are no
walkers, joggers, kids on bikes, especially in this weather. It's a
rural trail with mostly heavy woods on one side and a limited access
highway 50 yards away on the other side, separated by some more trees
and brush. Riding on city and suburban streets, watching for traffic
and stopping at lights/signs is for people who are afraid of getting
out where there is nobody to help and protect them. Most of my rides
I'm a half mile or more away from any other living soul.

>It seems we have one pathlete in this discussion group. And not only is
>he too timid for the road. He's too timid to ride even on a bike path
>unless his gun is immediately ready.

...and that's from the timid little dweeb who is afraid to ride with
his feet fastened to the pedals and is even have a gun in his home.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:22:07 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Poland area is pretty flat. Nowhere near as hilly as Wisconsin
where I used to ride. Central Florida has more hills.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 12:37:49?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:

He avoids the fact that the AR designed by Armalite Corporation was
not the AR that is sold to civilians today. As I specified in my post.


And, from what I read it was not "developed in response to a request
by General Wyman in the sense the original writer seems to mean. The
Army started a search for a new rifle design Armalite submitted a
light weight rifle chambered for the 7.62×51mm NATO. The M-14 was
selected as the standard Army rifle and became the official Army
Rifle, service 1957.

However the M-14 did not compare very well in comparison with the
Russian Assault Rifles which were in use in Vietnam and the Army
review a request made by General Wyman in 1957, for a small caliber
rifle. Armalite then modified the design of the AR-10 to the smaller
caliber and submitted it for testing.
Field test showed that the NEW rifle allowed the carrying of more
ammunition and more firepower then the M-14 however the Army Chief of
Staff, General Tayler "vetoed" the AR-15 in favor of the M14.

In 1959, Armalite suffering ongoing financial difficulties—sold its
rights to the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt.

Then came General LeMay who apparently saw a Colt made AR and liked
it and order some for the Air Force. In 1961 LeMay, now Air Force
Chief of Staff ordered an additional 80,000 AR's and was turned down
as General Maxwell D. Taylor, now Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff recommend to the President that the order be turned down.

Subsequently things changed and LeMay got his, now the M-16, in 1964.

The original M-16 type used by the Army had a manual bolt closing knob
while the version used by the A.F. did not.



--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I wonder about "load" as I ahead that the standard ammo load for a
soldier with the M-1 was 80 (10, 8 round clips) rounds while with the
M-16 it is in the 210 rounds , 7, 30 round magazines.

In fact, considering magazine weight probably more "weight" but of
course more bullets :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 08:23:50 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/19/2023 10:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 7:08:32 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>>> John, by your standards, you've enthroned yourself as an authority on AR
>>>>> rifles. Yet you do not own one. You've never mentioned shooting one.
>>>>
>>>> One can be an expert on something without owning or using it.
>>>
>>> But lets see, Expert on AR type.... Nope, never made that claim
>>
>> OK, we'll remember that. You're not an expert on ARs.
>>
>>> One doesn't need to be an expert on
>>> any type of forearm to speak intelligently about it.
>>
>> Especially, one does not need to know the details you specialize in to understand
>> the societal impact of gun proliferation. It doesn't matter if the caliber is 20% bigger
>> or smaller. It doesn't matter if the firing rate is 30% more or less. It doesn't matter what
>> the precise inner workings may be.
>>
>> Timid gun fetishists have generated a culture of fear ("I _gotta_ have a gun for protection!!!")
>> and saturated the country with firearms intended to kill bad guys. The result has been
>> many murders of very ordinary people.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
>Let's consult the players rather than sideline observers:
>
>https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-young-people-carry-guns-out-of-fear-for-their-lives-safety-of-their-families-20230717-yiisslekyffd7ak5ztn3gum6a4-story.html


Re, "saturated the country with firearms intended to kill bad guys"
:-) As I have previously posted, growing up in rural New Hampshire I
know that literally every farmhouse had at least 1 gun and a large
[percent of town houses as hunting was a common sport.

How strange that the only firearm homicide I can remember was when a
uniformed policeman shot a chap that attacked him... with a shovel.
the Grand Jury ruled it self defense.

So, if guns cause homicides as Frankie seems to be saying then why is
it that with guns in nearly every household there weren't more
murders?

Or maybe it might be possible that it isn't the guns, what done it, it
is the people that do it?


But NO! After all, Frank is a self defined expert, why, he even claims
to have shot a .22 several times, so we must listen to the "expert"
and then we'd understand that it is the guns that at fault, why
sometime they jump right out there on the street and start shooting
people!

Or, I suppose, we might just ignore an elderly bigot who knows nothing
bout the subject he is discussing.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:12:52 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:08:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 7/20/2023 7:48 AM, John B. wrote:

>>>
>>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:22:35 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Timid gun fetishists have generated a culture of fear ("I _gotta_ have a gun for protection!!!")
>>>>> and saturated the country with firearms intended to kill bad guys. The result has been
>>>>> many murders of very ordinary people.
>>>>
>>>

>>> Well, perhaps the question is whether home owners are timid as Frank
>>> terms....
>>>
>>> Again from the FBI data where were 584,009 Aggravated Assault in 2021,
>>> 316,997 of which occurred in residence/home.Or, 54% of the total.
>>
>>Those are mostly family members assaulting other family members, men
>>assaulting the women they live with, etc. Look it up.
>
>Another opinion expressed as a fact.

Well.... does it really matter whether the bloke that is hitting you
over the head with a baseball bat or trying to rape your wife is a
stranger? Or your brother-in-law?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 8:50:49 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> :-) As I have previously posted, growing up in rural New Hampshire I
> know that literally every farmhouse had at least 1 gun and a large
> [percent of town houses as hunting was a common sport.

As I have previously posted, you're talking very specifically about guns optimized for hunting.
I'm talking very specifically about guns optimized for killing many people quickly.
Why do you forget that over and over?
Are there other things you're forgetting more and more? Like your ally Tom?

> So, if guns cause homicides as Frankie seems to be saying ...

"Seems to be saying" only to those whose gun worship hampers their reading comprehension!
It's far more accurate to say that the wide availability of guns, particularly those with features
that make it easy to shoot many rounds in a short time. makes gun homicides much more
common. I think the available data shows that quite clearly.

But I'd like to ask a question or two of John. First, what exactly is it that makes you love
guns so passionately? I'm just curious.

Second, why do you not own an AR? You defend them so passionately, but seem quite
content to not own one, and to never have even shot one.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 9:10:30 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:12:52 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:08:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> Again from the FBI data where were 584,009 Aggravated Assault in 2021,
> >>> 316,997 of which occurred in residence/home.Or, 54% of the total.
> >>
> >>Those are mostly family members assaulting other family members, men
> >>assaulting the women they live with, etc. Look it u
>

> Well.... does it really matter whether the bloke that is hitting you
> over the head with a baseball bat or trying to rape your wife is a
> stranger? Or your brother-in-law?

The typical case is a guy who's drunk and furious at his wife shooting her.

But that's just exercising his constitutionally protected right to punish his wife
using a firearm, according to some.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 19:35:15 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 8:50:49?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>
>> :-) As I have previously posted, growing up in rural New Hampshire I
>> know that literally every farmhouse had at least 1 gun and a large
>> [percent of town houses as hunting was a common sport.
>
>As I have previously posted, you're talking very specifically about guns optimized for hunting.
>I'm talking very specifically about guns optimized for killing many people quickly.
>Why do you forget that over and over?
>Are there other things you're forgetting more and more? Like your ally Tom?
>
>> So, if guns cause homicides as Frankie seems to be saying ...
>
>"Seems to be saying" only to those whose gun worship hampers their reading comprehension!
>It's far more accurate to say that the wide availability of guns, particularly those with features
>that make it easy to shoot many rounds in a short time. makes gun homicides much more
>common. I think the available data shows that quite clearly.

Assumes facts not in evidence, as does most of krygowski's
nonsense....

>But I'd like to ask a question or two of John. First, what exactly is it that makes you love
>guns so passionately? I'm just curious.
>
>Second, why do you not own an AR? You defend them so passionately, but seem quite
>content to not own one, and to never have even shot one.
>
>- Frank Krygowski
>

Narcissistics like to make their arguments personal. They prefer to
attack people directly, rather than just their opinions.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 19:37:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

<CHUCKLE> A very poorly constructed strawman.

>- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Frank writes above "guns optimized for killing many people quickly" by
which he obviously means the dreaded AR. But I've posted references to
a number of pistol shooters who fire accurately and fast enough to
kill people at a higher rate of fire then the average mass shooter can
fire an AR. Next he will start on the 30 round magazines of course,
which seems rather indicative of his lack of knowledge as in 2022
there were 12 mass shootings and the average number of deaths was
6.16. In 2023 there were, as of the chart I saw, some 10 shootings
with an average death rate of 5.7. Does one really require a 30 round
magazine to shoot 5 or 6 people?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 04:44:37 -0400, Catrike Rider

<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 19:37:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 9:10:30?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:12:52 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:08:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> ><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >>> Again from the FBI data where were 584,009 Aggravated Assault in 2021,
>>> >>> 316,997 of which occurred in residence/home.Or, 54% of the total.
>>> >>
>>> >>Those are mostly family members assaulting other family members, men
>>> >>assaulting the women they live with, etc. Look it u
>>>
>>> Well.... does it really matter whether the bloke that is hitting you
>>> over the head with a baseball bat or trying to rape your wife is a
>>> stranger? Or your brother-in-law?
>>
>>The typical case is a guy who's drunk and furious at his wife shooting her.
>>
>>But that's just exercising his constitutionally protected right to punish his wife
>>using a firearm, according to some.
>
><CHUCKLE> A very poorly constructed strawman.
>
>>- Frank Krygowski

But is it a "typical case" as Frank states? How does he know? Has he
ever posted any references? Proof? Anything to indicate he actually
does know what he is talking about?

The other day he told us about "his friend" who was a famous gun
designer in a major company. I asked if he could reveal the company?
Or even, maybe, his friend's name..... and there was a deafening
silence.

As far as facts go Frankie and Tommy seem to be running neck and neck.
--
Cheers,

John B.