Recreation on e-bikes

[AMuzi]

Interesting things to do on electric rentals:

https://cwbchicago.com/2023/07/boy-17-charged-with-mugging-man-near-daley-plaza-as-divvy-bike-riding-robbers-continue-to-hit-the-loop.html

'Divvy' is the City of Chicago e-bike rental program

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 2:23:44 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> Interesting things to do on electric rentals:
>
> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/07/boy-17-charged-with-mugging-man-near-daley-plaza-as-divvy-bike-riding-robbers-continue-to-hit-the-loop.html
>
> 'Divvy' is the City of Chicago e-bike rental program

Well it does make escaping the police less costly to the Chicago DA who had a lot of paperwork to do to get murderers and rapist released without charges.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/10/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> Interesting things to do on electric rentals:
>
> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/07/boy-17-charged-with-mugging-man-near-daley-plaza-as-divvy-bike-riding-robbers-continue-to-hit-the-loop.html
>
> 'Divvy' is the City of Chicago e-bike rental program

I think a lot of similar guys use cars instead.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 16:23:40 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Interesting things to do on electric rentals:
>
>https://cwbchicago.com/2023/07/boy-17-charged-with-mugging-man-near-daley-plaza-as-divvy-bike-riding-robbers-continue-to-hit-the-loop.html
>
>'Divvy' is the City of Chicago e-bike rental program

Using the philosophy of the anti-gunners If we just outlaw those
horrible e-bikes we can eliminate all mugging :-)

(I couldn't resist the temptation :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Yes, that's true, and well reported.

However this is rec.bicycles not rec.auto theft.

[AMuzi]

When will we have 'sensible regulation' of edged weapons?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66150871

It's a problem worldwide.

(p.s. to Mr Slocumb- Note Bangkok dateline)

[John B.]

The part that read, "Experts say such men, and they are almost always
men, fit a profile.
They have festering anger and resentment towards the society they live
in, but do not feel part of. "

It is a bit shocking as Tommy, with his continuous rants about the
Democratic Party, rather fits the description.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/10/2023 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> When will we have 'sensible regulation' of edged weapons?
>
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-66150871
>
> It's a problem worldwide.

We'll prohibit knives when nations decide the practical societal
benefits of knives no longer significantly outweigh the detriments. I
doubt that's happening any time in the near future.

Meanwhile, the detriments of guns intended for rapidly killing people
are well known. The benefits are minuscule. Every major democracy has
figured that out long ago.

That's why all other major prosperous democracies place reasonable and
strong restrictions on such weaponry. And they benefit greatly from
those restrictions, as shown by copious data.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can’t wander about with a
large knife or bladed object without good reason.

Though as I’m middle aged white and so on hardly likely to be troubled by
the police!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 7/10/2023 5:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/10/2023 5:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Interesting things to do on electric rentals:
>>>
>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/07/boy-17-charged-with-mugging-man-near-daley-plaza-as-divvy-bike-riding-robbers-continue-to-hit-the-loop.html
>>>
>>>
>>> 'Divvy' is the City of Chicago e-bike rental program
>>
>> I think a lot of similar guys use cars instead.
>>
> Yes, that's true, and well reported.
>
> However this is rec.bicycles not rec.auto theft.
>

I will be riding with some E MTB on the weekend as my mates are slightly
older and well nowhere as fit as I am!

I’m a better rider in terms of technique so this largely evens the playing
field so they can ride longer distances with me MTB which they would find
exhausting otherwise, on such terrain.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Benefit vs detriment?
As Mr Friedman pithily observed, "Who decides?"

[Frank Krygowski]

Detriments? Decided by the victims, if surviving. Their families if
deceased. The cops and court systems and incarceration facilities
dealing with the chaos.

Benefits? Determined by guys saying "They're fun!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can’t wander about with a
>large knife or bladed object without good reason.

Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
survival knives":
<https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>

If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
use for gardening). Good enough methinks.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Catrike Rider]

Clearly, then, by your own admission, this is none of your business.

[John B.]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 09:33:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can’t wander about with a
>>large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>
>Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>survival knives":
><https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>
>If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>use for gardening). Good enough methinks.

Rather a stupid category as a Roman's "gladius" was a short swords
with a blade length of about 24 inches and they concurred the known
world with it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, Frank quite obviously appears to believe that he is the one.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

You project your personal values onto an argument of the whole.

So your opinion is that people ought to just bite into a
whole onion rather than using an Assault Implement to slice
it into a salad. And who says you can't cook fish whole,
guts and all? Why, if one child were saved...

[AMuzi]

Same length as my US Navy surplus machete. Inexpensive and
handy for yard work (mine's never drawn blood).

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 22:26:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> We'll prohibit knives when nations decide the practical societal
> benefits of knives no longer significantly outweigh the detriments.

I forget what newsgroup or mailing list I was on, and never knew where
my correspondent lived.

When discussing some subject or the other, I compaired a complicated
and simple option to my elaborate Victorinox swiss army knife and the
single-blade knife I actually carry.

In absolute shock and horror, someone replied: "Don't carry either
one around here! You will be arrested!" (And, in her opinion, this
was very good.)

I wonder what people in her jusrisdiction do when they buy a six-inch
sub and want to eat only half of it?

(Bike content: I usually carry one or more sandwich bags of ice cubes
in my insulated pannier in case of just such an emergency.)

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Frank Krygowski]

Nope. I was mentioning detriments vs. benefits of widely dispersing guns
designed for killing lots of people.

I don't believe the benefits vs. detriments picture is anything remotely
similar for kitchen knives. In fact, I doubt any sane person claims all
kitchen knives should be banned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

FWIW, one of my students, at his graduation, presented me with a unique
camping knife. It looks like a green handled Victorinox, but when opened
90 degrees, on half of the handle slides free of the other, and from
that half a little fork unfolds. It would enable civilized eating, fork
and knife style, while stopping for a picnic lunch.

It's quite cute, in its way. But I've never yet put it to its intended use.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can’t wander about with a
>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>
> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
> survival knives":
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>
> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>

Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
gardening knife/shovel!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people. As yet another
example (to be ignored by the anti-gunners) there are an estimated
24.6 million AR type rifles in the hands of civilians in the U.S. and
there were some 410 homicides committed with a rifle in the last year
reported by the FBI, 2021.

This is some 0.00166% of these fiendish weapons used in homicides.

In contrast there are roughly 14 million USians who ride a bicycle as
often as once a week and in 2021 there were some 966 people who died
on bicycles... or some 0.0069% of bicyclists die riding.

Which would seem to make owning an AR some 4 times safer then owning
and riding a bicycle :-)

As for "Benefit vs detriment"? Well, the decrement is, of course you
might die and the "benefit"? Well just what is the benefit to a bloke
that owns a car AND a motorcycle?

It is just sooooo obviously that we MUST get rid of these terrible AR
weapons.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 15:15:37 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Whoops... "decrement" is actually spelled "Detriment"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 18:06:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Benefit vs Detriment is more often known as risk vs reward, and is
more often applied to an individual's evaluation, rather than to an
entire population. Applying either term to more than one person often
results in the question, "who gets to decide?"

[AMuzi]

Honduras, under a new administration, reduced their murder
rate 92% by arresting habitual criminal gang members, not by
harassing lawful firearms owners. The predicate was 'arrest
people with face tattoos' and dramatically successful.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>

>>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a

>>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>>
>> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>> survival knives":
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>>
>> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.

>Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
>and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
>gardening knife/shovel!
>
>Roger Merriman

In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
armor were expensive so they used what was available.

Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
my electric chainsaw.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:24:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a
>>>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>>>
>>> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>>> survival knives":
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>>> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>>>
>>> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>>> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>
>>Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
>>and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
>>gardening knife/shovel!
>>
>>Roger Merriman
>
>In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
>the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
>armor were expensive so they used what was available.
>
>Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
>my electric chainsaw.

Aren't zombies susceptible to nerf balls?

[AMuzi]

On 7/12/2023 11:24 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a
>>>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>>>
>>> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>>> survival knives":
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>>> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>>>
>>> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>>> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>
>> Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
>> and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
>> gardening knife/shovel!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
> the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
> armor were expensive so they used what was available.
>
> Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
> my electric chainsaw.
>
>

'Good enough' and 'right now' beat 'perfect' at 'some time
later':

https://nypost.com/2023/07/11/6-year-old-girl-escapes-would-be-miami-kidnapper-by-biting-him/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.

All countries have people.

Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

Yes, but for maximum stopping power, they should be the "Nerf Zombie
Strike Blaster" models.
<https://www.walmart.com/browse/toys/nerf-zombie-strike/4171_14521_936979_6929634_7879959_2697971>

I still prefer an electric (battery powered) chainsaw. They make
small models that are the size of a Nerf ball weapon:
<https://www.stihlusa.com/guides-projects/a/gta-26-technology/>

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>
>All countries have people.

...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to violence.

>Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.

...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 11:17:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Good advice. I may have to upgrade.

>I still prefer an electric (battery powered) chainsaw. They make
>small models that are the size of a Nerf ball weapon:
><https://www.stihlusa.com/guides-projects/a/gta-26-technology/>

Having given away all three of my chainsaws back when I moved to
Florida and aboard my boat I recently borrowed a battery powered
chainsaw. I was impressed after I discovered and re-installed the
chain in the correct direction.

[AMuzi]

Honduras exceeded our rate until a recent policy shift.

Some countries have summary execution (which cuts
recidivism) and we do not.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 14:23:01 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>
>>All countries have people.
>
>...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to violence.
>

Even a casual look does show that violent crime in the U.S. is much
higher then in other "civilized" countries. Serious Assault rates in
the U.S. are 246.84, in Canada, and Germany 150.81 and 164.48 for
example.

>>Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>>the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>
>...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...

And none of them have the right to poses a firearm incorporated in
their fundamental law :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Meriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a
>>>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>>>
>>> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>>> survival knives":
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>>> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>>>
>>> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>>> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>
>> Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
>> and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
>> gardening knife/shovel!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
> the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
> armor were expensive so they used what was available.
>
> Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
> my electric chainsaw.
>
>

Or hunting weapons such as bows, which where more like sniper rifles don’t
believe what the movies show!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:24:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a
>>>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>>>
>>> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>>> survival knives":
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>>> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>>>
>>> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>>> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>
>>Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
>>and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
>>gardening knife/shovel!
>>
>>Roger Merriman
>
>In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
>the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
>armor were expensive so they used what was available.
>
>Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
>my electric chainsaw.

Actually not, at least for the most successful "infantry". The
"Greeks" under Alexander the Great used a very long spear for
thrusting, not throwing, and the Romans used a short sword, again for
thrusting.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But, but, but... not only is that prejudicial but it is cruel. I'm
sure that the Constitution can be interpreted to show that it is also
illegal :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well in the case of firearms it is obviously Frank :-) After all, he
shot a .22 once or twice so he is an expert in the subject :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 23:21:39 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

Read up on the battle of Crécy (1346) and the Battle of Agincourt
(1415). The English used the bow as a rapid fire (cover the battle
fields with arrows) weapon. An estimated 150,000 - 500,000 arrows
fired, by approximately 7,000 Bowmen, on an estimated 750 yard front,
during the estimated 3 hour battle of Agincourt.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

Various authorities have been pushing for bans on possession of long
pointy knives in the UK since at least 2005.

https://www.loweringthebar.net/2005/05/british_medical.html

Here's a more recent story:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/27/knives-sharp-filing-solution-soaring-violent-crime-judge-says/

[A Judge] asked: “But why we do need eight-inch or ten-inch kitchen knives with points?

“Butchers and fishmongers do, but how often, if at all, does a domestic
chef use the point of an eight-inch or ten-inch knife? Rarely, if at
all."

Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Every "common sense" law
that does not work for the declared purpose serves as a precedent for
even more restrictive laws to come. A vicious circle if ever there was
one.

[Radey Shouman]

In general those are called "hobo knives" in US parlance, don't know about
Switzerland. I have never used one either.

[Radey Shouman]

That's great. But, unlike us, six year olds have spare teeth.

[Frank Krygowski]

Perhaps they learned from our mistake. After all, our constitution was
one of the very first.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

If you're lazy, watch Kevin Branaugh's Henry V. I don't know if the
sound effect of a volley of arrows is realistic, but it did raise a bit
of hair on the back of my neck.

Making all those arrows must have been a mouumental effort.

[John B.]

Singapore has some very rigid laws, and severe penalties, for
dangerious weapons and years ago the "bad guys" to avoid the penalties
for carrying a knife started carrying "bearing scrapers" which have a
sharp point. These have a triangular shaped shank with sharp edges and
a sharp point, perhaps 1 foot long.

The problem with outlawing weapons is that the "bad guys" are very
inventive. If they can't have a knife with a sharp point then they
will, as in Singapore, find another device to serve. Years ago street
kids in New York City were making "Zip Guns" out of brass tubing, a
bent nail and rubber bands :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I've read that arrow making was a national effort in England with
documented delivery of a half-million arrows to the Tower of London
Armory in 1360 and 850,000 the previous year.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Rolf Mantel]

... And 'you' don't have the rights and freedoms we Germans have.

Is the 'right to bear arms' more or less essential than the 'permission
to drive 150 mph on the freeway' or the 'right to terminate a pregnancy
in a safe way'?

I personally think the first two are irrelevant but the third is essential.

Rolf

[Catrike Rider]

I thought abortion was illegal in Germany except for the first three
months. Am I wrong?

BTW, abortion within the first three month fits my preference, but I
also heavily favor the right to free speech... and also, of course,
the right to defend myself and others with firearms.

[AMuzi]

Exactly. We have, under our Constitution, due process
rights for criminals and conversely firearms rights for
their victims' defense.

[AMuzi]

> [A Judge] asked: “But why we do need eight-inch or ten-inch kitchen knives with points?
>
> “Butchers and fishmongers do, but how often, if at all, does a domestic

> chef use the point of an eight-inch or ten-inch knife? Rarely, if at
> all."
>
> Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Every "common sense" law
> that does not work for the declared purpose serves as a precedent for
> even more restrictive laws to come. A vicious circle if ever there was
> one.
>

'Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness' has no meaning if
life itself cannot be defended.

[AMuzi]

You ought to live in Germany then. Culture matters.

(although 240kph does sound great)

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 13.07.2023 um 16:02 schrieb AMuzi:
> On 7/13/2023 7:05 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 12.07.2023 um 20:23 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>
>>>> All countries have people.
>>>
>>> ...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to
>>> violence.
>>>
>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized
>>>> countries, have
>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>
>>> ...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...
>>
>> ... And 'you' don't have the rights and freedoms we Germans
>> have.
>>
>> Is the 'right to bear arms' more or less essential than the
>> 'permission to drive 150 mph on the freeway' or the 'right
>> to terminate a pregnancy in a safe way'?
>>
>> I personally think the first two are irrelevant but the
>> third is essential.
>

> You ought to live in Germany then. Culture matters.

Given my priorities, maybe I should prefer UK where the third is on
offer without restrictions.

> (although 240kph does sound great)

I have suffered these speeds in the rear seat of a colleague's car. I
have driven his car at 180 kph on an empty road but preferred to take my
turn driving in Austria when the challenge was not to exceed 80 kph in
the long tunnels ;-)

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:24:56 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a
> >>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
> >>
> >> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
> >> survival knives":
> >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
> >> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
> >>
> >> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
> >> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>
> >Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
> >and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
> >gardening knife/shovel!
> >
> >Roger Merriman
> In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
> the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
> armor were expensive so they used what was available.
>
> Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
> my electric chainsaw.

> --

This is a comedy
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106308/

A rather campy and delightful one at that.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 13.07.2023 um 14:45 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:05:05 +0200, Rolf Mantel
> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 12.07.2023 um 20:23 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>
>>>> All countries have people.
>>>
>>> ...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to violence.
>>>
>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>
>>> ...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...
>>
>> ... And 'you' don't have the rights and freedoms we Germans have.
>>
>> Is the 'right to bear arms' more or less essential than the 'permission
>> to drive 150 mph on the freeway' or the 'right to terminate a pregnancy
>> in a safe way'?
>>
>> I personally think the first two are irrelevant but the third is essential.
>

> I thought abortion was illegal in Germany except for the first three
> months. Am I wrong?

In Germany, abortion is technically 'illegal but tolerated in certain
circumstances' (e.g. in the first three months once the mother has gone
through consulting plus a three day 'cooling off' period but also when
the doctor declares a medical emergency to mother or child or when child
is expected to be severely handicapped).

But with doctors being able to refuse terminations, there are one or two
German states where women have to travel more than 100 miles to find a
doctor willing to perform the act, and this (especially in a medical
emergency) is not necessarily a safe way.

At least we do not have any women like in Poland who die in hospital
because doctors are afraid of treating fetal sepsis.

> BTW, abortion within the first three month fits my preference, but I
> also heavily favor the right to free speech... and also, of course,
> the right to defend myself and others with firearms.

I prefer a meaningful balance of all rights: free speech as long as it's
victimless (i.e. excluding hate speech), restrict highway speeds when
it's appropriate for safety or environmental reasons, provide a legal
system where all inhabitants feel safe by having a highly trained police
force controlled by a robust legal system to prevent police abuse but
I'm aware that a good balance is almost impossible to achieve.

Rolf

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>>
>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>
> All countries have people.
>

> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>

Other countries do have the gun ownership, the Scandinavian for example,
due to hunting and well Russia!

And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but they don’t have the
same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing, ie it’s more that
the guns being around.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Meriman]

The vast majority where targeted, they did use galling” arrows ie rapid un
aimed to harass/wound army’s but in low numbers as that’s not the longbows
strength.

The cavalry charge (French) wasn’t fired upon until they where within not
just range but accurate range, ie for targeted shots.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/12/2023 11:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Singapore has some very rigid laws, and severe penalties, for
> dangerious weapons and years ago the "bad guys" to avoid the penalties
> for carrying a knife started carrying "bearing scrapers" which have a
> sharp point. These have a triangular shaped shank with sharp edges and
> a sharp point, perhaps 1 foot long.
>
> The problem with outlawing weapons is that the "bad guys" are very
> inventive. If they can't have a knife with a sharp point then they
> will, as in Singapore, find another device to serve. Years ago street
> kids in New York City were making "Zip Guns" out of brass tubing, a
> bent nail and rubber bands :-)

By that "logic," outlawing quasi-military guns with features that
facilitate rapidly killing people should not bother anyone. Shooters can
just make their own.

In actual fact, when Australia outlawed such guns, almost everyone got
rid of theirs. Yes, last I heard, a criminal can still get one. But as
seriously contraband items, they are very expensive (over $10,000) and
hard to find. And heaven help the criminal caught with one.

Good laws do make a beneficial difference. They do so regarding many
issues.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/13/2023 10:02 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> You ought to live in Germany then. Culture matters.
>
> (although 240kph does sound great)

I don't see the charm. If I want the thrill of high speed, I can bike to
a 50+ mph downhill. I can enjoy (?) risking my life and limb without
endangering anyone else.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more rational (i.e. much
stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are allowed and
popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously restricted. Guns are
licensed, background checks are real, etc.

Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for hunting. U.S. gun
culture is pointed in a completely different direction.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 08:25:17 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:24:56?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> wrote:
>> Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
>> my electric chainsaw.

>This is a comedy
>https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106308/
>
>A rather campy and delightful one at that.

<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106308/mediaviewer/rm2861960192/>

Cute, but no thanks. I don't recognize the chainsaw. Hmmm... no
chain brake, which is a safety hazard. Red only was favored by
Homelite, Craftsman, Jonsered, Shindaiwa and probably some others.

The chainsaw is too close to his right leg. He should be wearing
chaps, safety helmet, goggles, gloves, and ear protection. Fighting
zombies with an obvious distraction hanging onto his left leg will
likely hinder his movement.

Running out of gas is not a problem. A 2 cycle engine can run on
ethanol (from corn). Running out of 2 cycle mix is a bigger problem.
Vegetable oil works (don't ask how I know). These were available in
The chain will probably become dull before he runs out of gas and he
probably forgot his sharpening files and depth gauge.

As for zombies, they were quite real but only marginally re-animated.
During the Black Death (1346 to 1353), bodies would accumulate
awaiting burial. These were buried in haste and in very shallow
graves, usually without a casket. If they were buried in winter, the
bodies would freeze and fail to decompose. When spring arrived, the
bloated bodies would thaw and float to ground level. To a casual
observer, it would look like the bodies had risen from the dead.
Because of the large number of bodies that would almost simultaneously
thaw, it looked like an army of the un-dead had risen. I don't know
if warriors were buried with their swords, but if they were, the
effect would be even more impressive.




--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:32:53 +0200, Rolf Mantel

"Hate speech," is, of course a meaningless term.

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/13/2023 11:34 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>
>>> All countries have people.
>>>
>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>
>> Other countries do have the gun ownership, the Scandinavian for example,
>> due to hunting and well Russia!
>>
>> And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but they don’t have the
>> same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing, ie it’s more that
>> the guns being around.
>
> Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more rational (i.e. much
> stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are allowed and
> popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously restricted. Guns are
> licensed, background checks are real, etc.

Even so huge numbers of guns in the country’s and it’s more than just
hunting also having Russia close by!

Yes you have to have paperwork for the guns and so on, but still huge
numbers about, after all Americans aren’t legally allowed to mass murder
people, it’s more than simply lots of guns in lots of hands.

>
> Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for hunting. U.S. gun
> culture is pointed in a completely different direction.
>

It’s Cultural and very much is a America thing.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

100 MPH on a snowmobile is pretty wild too.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:33:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/12/2023 11:03 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Singapore has some very rigid laws, and severe penalties, for
>> dangerious weapons and years ago the "bad guys" to avoid the penalties
>> for carrying a knife started carrying "bearing scrapers" which have a
>> sharp point. These have a triangular shaped shank with sharp edges and
>> a sharp point, perhaps 1 foot long.
>>
>> The problem with outlawing weapons is that the "bad guys" are very
>> inventive. If they can't have a knife with a sharp point then they
>> will, as in Singapore, find another device to serve. Years ago street
>> kids in New York City were making "Zip Guns" out of brass tubing, a
>> bent nail and rubber bands :-)
>
>By that "logic," outlawing quasi-military guns with features that
>facilitate rapidly killing people should not bother anyone. Shooters can
>just make their own.

Browning Colt .45 ACP is a real military gun. So is a Remington Model
700 rifle. Actually, many civilian handguns and rifles are real
military guns, while the AR15 only looks like a military gun.. but
then, so does my grandson's water gun.

[AMuzi]

Exactly.
Because 'who decides?'.

[Frank Krygowski]

One relevant aspect of the American gun culture is the emphasis on the
ability to kill people, as opposed to deer, grouse, rabbits, groundhogs,
etc. Gun magazines talk about "defense," as if every American household
has armed robbers near the side porch, waiting for their chance.

I've linked videos of pot-bellied middle aged men dodging from place to
place while blasting away at human-shaped targets. Human silhouettes
with center-of-mass markers are common as targets at ranges. Accessory
magazines are available to hold more and more rounds. All that has
nothing to do with hunting, and very, very little to do with real home
security. Does that go on even in Finland?

It's as if the most macho Americans are prepared for an armed invasion
by Canadians. Or perhaps it's zombies, or some other fantasy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/13/2023 1:54 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2023 11:34 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>>
>>>>> All countries have people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized
>>>>> countries, have
>>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>>>
>>>> Other countries do have the gun ownership, the
>>>> Scandinavian for example,
>>>> due to hunting and well Russia!
>>>>
>>>> And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but

>>>> they don’t have the

>>>> same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing,

>>>> ie it’s more that

>>>> the guns being around.
>>>
>>> Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more
>>> rational (i.e. much
>>> stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are
>>> allowed and
>>> popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously
>>> restricted. Guns are
>>> licensed, background checks are real, etc.
>>

>> Even so huge numbers of guns in the country’s and it’s

>> more than just
>> hunting also having Russia close by!
>>
>> Yes you have to have paperwork for the guns and so on, but
>> still huge

>> numbers about, after all Americans aren’t legally
>> allowed to mass murder
>> people, it’s more than simply lots of guns in lots of

>> hands.
>>>
>>> Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for
>>> hunting. U.S. gun
>>> culture is pointed in a completely different direction.
>>>

>> It’s Cultural and very much is a America thing.

>
> One relevant aspect of the American gun culture is the
> emphasis on the ability to kill people, as opposed to deer,
> grouse, rabbits, groundhogs, etc. Gun magazines talk about
> "defense," as if every American household has armed robbers
> near the side porch, waiting for their chance.
>
> I've linked videos of pot-bellied middle aged men dodging
> from place to place while blasting away at human-shaped
> targets. Human silhouettes with center-of-mass markers are
> common as targets at ranges. Accessory magazines are
> available to hold more and more rounds. All that has nothing
> to do with hunting, and very, very little to do with real
> home security. Does that go on even in Finland?
>
> It's as if the most macho Americans are prepared for an
> armed invasion by Canadians. Or perhaps it's zombies, or
> some other fantasy.
>

Some very large portion of USAians own firearms and, as
discussed here ad infinitum, we are a large country with
staggering diversity in all it forms. Are some lawful
firearms owners whack jobs? I assume so, although I don't
know any. Probably like nutcase black pickup truck owners, eh?

p.s. Hunting is utterly irrelevant, a red herring. You will
find no instance of hunting in our Constitution, the
Federalist, the Framers' debates nor in their
correspondence. The word 'tyranny' appears often.

[Frank Krygowski]

The framers of our constitution had just won independence from Britain.
They feared Britain would try again to gain control.

Who are we supposed to fear now? Canada? Cuba?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:52:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Nope, none of my guns have anything to do with hunting, either, but
they all have to do with security. Ya see, unlike you, I'm not afraid
to have guns in my home.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:02:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/13/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/13/2023 1:54 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2023 11:34 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All countries have people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized
>>>>>> countries, have
>>>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Other countries do have the gun ownership, the
>>>>> Scandinavian for example,
>>>>> due to hunting and well Russia!
>>>>>
>>>>> And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but

>>>>> they don’t have the

>>>>> same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing,

>>>>> ie it’s more that

>>>>> the guns being around.
>>>>
>>>> Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more
>>>> rational (i.e. much
>>>> stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are
>>>> allowed and
>>>> popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously
>>>> restricted. Guns are
>>>> licensed, background checks are real, etc.
>>>

>>> Even so huge numbers of guns in the country’s and it’s

>>> more than just
>>> hunting also having Russia close by!
>>>
>>> Yes you have to have paperwork for the guns and so on, but
>>> still huge

>>> numbers about, after all Americans aren’t legally
>>> allowed to mass murder
>>> people, it’s more than simply lots of guns in lots of

>>> hands.
>>>>
>>>> Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for
>>>> hunting. U.S. gun
>>>> culture is pointed in a completely different direction.
>>>>

>>> It’s Cultural and very much is a America thing.

>>
>> One relevant aspect of the American gun culture is the
>> emphasis on the ability to kill people, as opposed to deer,
>> grouse, rabbits, groundhogs, etc. Gun magazines talk about
>> "defense," as if every American household has armed robbers
>> near the side porch, waiting for their chance.
>>
>> I've linked videos of pot-bellied middle aged men dodging
>> from place to place while blasting away at human-shaped
>> targets. Human silhouettes with center-of-mass markers are
>> common as targets at ranges. Accessory magazines are
>> available to hold more and more rounds. All that has nothing
>> to do with hunting, and very, very little to do with real
>> home security. Does that go on even in Finland?
>>
>> It's as if the most macho Americans are prepared for an
>> armed invasion by Canadians. Or perhaps it's zombies, or
>> some other fantasy.
>>
>
>Some very large portion of USAians own firearms and, as
>discussed here ad infinitum, we are a large country with
>staggering diversity in all it forms. Are some lawful
>firearms owners whack jobs? I assume so, although I don't
>know any. Probably like nutcase black pickup truck owners, eh?
>
>p.s. Hunting is utterly irrelevant, a red herring. You will
>find no instance of hunting in our Constitution, the
>Federalist, the Framers' debates nor in their
>correspondence. The word 'tyranny' appears often.

You also won't find any references to "social," "society," nor
"benefits vs detriments."

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:14:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 7/13/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/13/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2023 1:54 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 7/13/2023 11:34 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All countries have people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized
>>>>>>> countries, have
>>>>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other countries do have the gun ownership, the
>>>>>> Scandinavian for example,
>>>>>> due to hunting and well Russia!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but

>>>>>> they don’t have the

>>>>>> same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing,

>>>>>> ie it’s more that

>>>>>> the guns being around.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more
>>>>> rational (i.e. much
>>>>> stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are
>>>>> allowed and
>>>>> popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously
>>>>> restricted. Guns are
>>>>> licensed, background checks are real, etc.
>>>>

>>>> Even so huge numbers of guns in the country’s and it’s

>>>> more than just
>>>> hunting also having Russia close by!
>>>>
>>>> Yes you have to have paperwork for the guns and so on, but
>>>> still huge

>>>> numbers about, after all Americans aren’t legally
>>>> allowed to mass murder
>>>> people, it’s more than simply lots of guns in lots of

>>>> hands.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for
>>>>> hunting. U.S. gun
>>>>> culture is pointed in a completely different direction.
>>>>>

>>>> It’s Cultural and very much is a America thing.

Terrorists, thugs, burglers, home invaders, car jackers, rapists, etc.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:34:21 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

I have recently read a number of studies of mass shooters, as opposed
to simply shouting "The Guns Did It" And aside from the logical
findings... these people have mental problems - I see some, at least
to me, rather strange assertions. One study showed that just holding a
gun in one's hands increases testosterone levels...

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:05:05 +0200, Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 12.07.2023 um 20:23 schrieb Catrike Rider:

>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski

>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>
>>> All countries have people.
>>

>> ...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to violence.
>>

>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>

>> ...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...
>
>... And 'you' don't have the rights and freedoms we Germans have.
>
>Is the 'right to bear arms' more or less essential than the 'permission
>to drive 150 mph on the freeway' or the 'right to terminate a pregnancy
>in a safe way'?
>
>I personally think the first two are irrelevant but the third is essential.
>

>Rolf

Well... you could teach your daughter to keep her knees together until
she marries and prophylactic devices and medicines have been common,
even in remote and primitive countries for many, many, years.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 7/13/2023 4:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/13/2023 5:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/13/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/13/2023 1:54 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 7/13/2023 11:34 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All countries have people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized
>>>>>>> countries, have
>>>>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other countries do have the gun ownership, the
>>>>>> Scandinavian for example,
>>>>>> due to hunting and well Russia!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but

>>>>>> they don’t have the

>>>>>> same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing,

>>>>>> ie it’s more that

>>>>>> the guns being around.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more
>>>>> rational (i.e. much
>>>>> stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are
>>>>> allowed and
>>>>> popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously
>>>>> restricted. Guns are
>>>>> licensed, background checks are real, etc.
>>>>

>>>> Even so huge numbers of guns in the country’s and
>>>> it’s

>>>> more than just
>>>> hunting also having Russia close by!
>>>>
>>>> Yes you have to have paperwork for the guns and so on, but
>>>> still huge

>>>> numbers about, after all Americans aren’t legally
>>>> allowed to mass murder
>>>> people, it’s more than simply lots of guns in

>>>> lots of
>>>> hands.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for
>>>>> hunting. U.S. gun
>>>>> culture is pointed in a completely different direction.
>>>>>

>>>> It’s Cultural and very much is a America thing.

Do you read the morning news ever?
How is the nation doing with President Xi running things here?

[AMuzi]

Yes, there's that.

But also the definition has become '3 or more shot' which is
a low standard. There are a several per week in Chicago,
mostly bystanders to gang turf dispute resolution.

[John B.]

Well, Statistica has it
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
that from 1982 thru April 2923 pistols have been used in 110 mass
shootings and all types of rifles used in 59, and shotguns used in 28.

So, those terrifying and deadly, rifles were used in less then 30% of
all mass shooting over 40 years, and 4 months.

Yes ?sir! If we just get rid of those AR type rifles everyone will be
safe!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 08:45:53 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:05:05 +0200, Rolf Mantel
><ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>>Am 12.07.2023 um 20:23 schrieb Catrike Rider:

>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>
>>>> All countries have people.
>>>

>>> ...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to violence.
>>>

>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>

>>> ...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...
>>
>>... And 'you' don't have the rights and freedoms we Germans have.
>>
>>Is the 'right to bear arms' more or less essential than the 'permission
>>to drive 150 mph on the freeway' or the 'right to terminate a pregnancy
>>in a safe way'?
>>
>>I personally think the first two are irrelevant but the third is essential.
>>
>>Rolf
>
>

>I thought abortion was illegal in Germany except for the first three
>months. Am I wrong?
>

>BTW, abortion within the first three month fits my preference, but I
>also heavily favor the right to free speech... and also, of course,
>the right to defend myself and others with firearms.

My opinion is that abortion should be left up to the individual that
is pregnant. And why the government should want to stick their nose
into the subject is ridicules.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:54:15 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

I don't have any numbers but I've read that Swiss men, who have
completed military training keep their rifles in the home and I read
that the Swiss firearm laws are some of the most liberal in the world.
But, firearm homicides are very low.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Every morning. I read about idiots with guns shooting up places. I see
photos of dozens of shell casing markers photographed on the roads in
front of houses with bullet holes, houses where kids inside were wounded.

Gosh, what kind of gun sprays out so many shells? Are they using lots of
,38 revolvers, really fast?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

And I might add, elderly geezers with their wife pedaling them down
the road nodding regally right and left to the pedestrians (who are
thinking, "poor old fellow... can't even afford a car".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

You are afraid. You are timid. You've made that very, very clear.

You are afraid _not_ to have guns in your home.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/13/2023 9:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> > I don't have any numbers but I've read that Swiss men, who have
> completed military training keep their rifles in the home and I read
> that the Swiss firearm laws are some of the most liberal in the world.
> But, firearm homicides are very low.

Sounds to me like there are lots of regulations, of the very type that
the NRA screams about.

From
https://www.iamexpat.ch/expat-info/swiss-expat-news/gun-laws-switzerland

"Are guns legal in Switzerland?

Generally speaking, guns are legal in Switzerland, but only with the
proper licencing, permits and use restrictions. If you wish to carry
your weapon in public places, you need to obtain a permit, which is only
issued if you can show a proper need, for example, those working in the
Swiss police, private security or defence. You also need to pass an exam
to demonstrate your understanding of firearms.

Unlike in some other European countries, you do not need a permit to
transport weapons within Switzerland. However, it is a requirement under
Swiss law to make sure that while transporting weapons there is no
ammunition inside the firearms. In order to bring firearms from another
country into Switzerland, you need to obtain an import permit. It is
important to note that the European Weapons Pass is not accepted as an
import permit.

What kind of guns are allowed in Switzerland?

In Switzerland, a number of different objects are classed as weapons.
This means that all firearms, daggers, knives, self-defence sprays, as
well as CO2 guns, imitation firearms, blank cartridges and airsoft guns
are classed as weapons.

Under Swiss law, weapons are categorised into three different groups:
weapons that must be declared, weapons for which a permit is required,
and illegal weapons.

For weapons that need to be declared, such as manual repetition rifles
for hunting, airsoft guns, blank cartridge guns and paintball guns, you
need to obtain a written contract explaining where you purchased the
firearm. Non-Swiss nationals who do not possess a C-residence permit
(Settlement) will also need to apply for a weapon acquisition permit at
their local cantonal weapons office.

For weapons such as pistols, revolvers and semi-automatic rifles with a
small magazine, a weapons acquisition permit is required. You can apply
for a weapons acquisition permit and other firearms permits from your
cantonal weapons office.

Other larger or more dangerous weapons such as semi-automatic firearms
with a large magazine, machine guns, electric shock devices, daggers,
automatic blades, butterfly knives and knuckledusters are illegal in
Switzerland, though can be obtained in extreme circumstances by applying
for an exemption at a cantonal weapons authority.

It's also important to bear in mind that non-Swiss nationals from a
number of countries are not allowed to own firearms in Switzerland. For
more information about registering a firearm, the restrictions that
apply and the location of cantonal weapons offices, please visit the
official website.
Gun ownership in Switzerland

Gun ownership in Switzerland is much more common than in neighbouring
European countries, thanks in some part to the country’s long tradition
of military conscription. Despite this, the country still has low levels
of gun crime and lots of people enjoy shooting for sport.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:47:50 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 23:21:39 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 07:59:47 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:06:12 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Already regulations with knifes, certainly in uk, can?t wander about with a
>>>>>>> large knife or bladed object without good reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Large knives are know called "zombie knives" or "zombie apocalypse
>>>>>> survival knives":
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+knife&tbm=isch>
>>>>>> These were banned in the US and UK in about 2016 to 2018.
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_knife>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we are attacked by zombies, I have an old machete (which I normally
>>>>>> use for gardening). Good enough methinks.
>>>>
>>>>> Likewise number of gardeners tools that would provide stand off distances
>>>>> and quite capable of killing, be that Matlock to various axes and a large
>>>>> gardening knife/shovel!
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> In biblical times and through modern time, the weapons of choice for
>>>> the infantry were re-purposed agricultural implements. Weapons and
>>>> armor were expensive so they used what was available.

>>>>
>>>> Today, my melee weapon of choice, for defeating the zombies, would be
>>>> my electric chainsaw.
>>>>
>>>>

>>> Or hunting weapons such as bows, which where more like sniper rifles don?t
>>> believe what the movies show!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Read up on the battle of Crécy (1346) and the Battle of Agincourt
>> (1415). The English used the bow as a rapid fire (cover the battle
>> fields with arrows) weapon. An estimated 150,000 - 500,000 arrows
>> fired, by approximately 7,000 Bowmen, on an estimated 750 yard front,
>> during the estimated 3 hour battle of Agincourt.
>
>The vast majority where targeted, they did use galling” arrows ie rapid un
>aimed to harass/wound army’s but in low numbers as that’s not the longbows
>strength.
>
>The cavalry charge (French) wasn’t fired upon until they where within not
>just range but accurate range, ie for targeted shots.
>
>Roger Merriman

Somewhere you seem to be missing the mark.

A long bow was, for it's day, the most effective a long range, rapid
fire weapon available. And typically available only to English and
Welch forces. About 12 "rounds a minute" at , say, 200 yards. In the
battle of Argincourt there was something like 7,000 archers so "volley
fire" was as high as 80,000 "rounds a minute".

But of course this was "volley fire - blanket the area with arrows,
and as the range decreases then certainly accuracy becomes better and
of course more important.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Eugenicists think they know better than you.

[AMuzi]

> country’s long tradition of military conscription. Despite

> this, the country still has low levels of gun crime and lots
> of people enjoy shooting for sport.
>

As Mr Mantel and I discussed here yesterday, I assume Swiss
are comfortable with Swiss law.

To me that sounds like a nightmare.

Once the government knows where all the weapons are and who
has them, there is no individual liberty remaining and our
2d Amendment becomes meaningless.

[Frank Krygowski]

And yet, the Swiss have been content with their system since... when?
Forever?

Perhaps they are less paranoid.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:32:53 +0200, Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 13.07.2023 um 14:45 schrieb Catrike Rider:

>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:05:05 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 12.07.2023 um 20:23 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 13:15:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>>
>>>>> All countries have people.
>>>>
>>>> ...and, apparently, some have people who are more prone to violence.
>>>>
>>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized countries, have
>>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> ...and none have the rights and freedoms that we have...
>>>
>>> ... And 'you' don't have the rights and freedoms we Germans have.
>>>
>>> Is the 'right to bear arms' more or less essential than the 'permission
>>> to drive 150 mph on the freeway' or the 'right to terminate a pregnancy
>>> in a safe way'?
>>>
>>> I personally think the first two are irrelevant but the third is essential.
>>

>> I thought abortion was illegal in Germany except for the first three
>> months. Am I wrong?
>

>In Germany, abortion is technically 'illegal but tolerated in certain
>circumstances' (e.g. in the first three months once the mother has gone
>through consulting plus a three day 'cooling off' period but also when
>the doctor declares a medical emergency to mother or child or when child
>is expected to be severely handicapped).
>
>But with doctors being able to refuse terminations, there are one or two
>German states where women have to travel more than 100 miles to find a
>doctor willing to perform the act, and this (especially in a medical
>emergency) is not necessarily a safe way.

But (I can't resist the temptation :-) 100 miles at 150 mph is only a
40 minute drive :-)

>
>At least we do not have any women like in Poland who die in hospital
>because doctors are afraid of treating fetal sepsis.
>

>> BTW, abortion within the first three month fits my preference, but I
>> also heavily favor the right to free speech... and also, of course,
>> the right to defend myself and others with firearms.
>

>I prefer a meaningful balance of all rights: free speech as long as it's
>victimless (i.e. excluding hate speech), restrict highway speeds when
>it's appropriate for safety or environmental reasons, provide a legal
>system where all inhabitants feel safe by having a highly trained police
>force controlled by a robust legal system to prevent police abuse but
>I'm aware that a good balance is almost impossible to achieve.
>
>Rolf

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

>>At least we do not have any women like in Poland who die in hospital
>>because doctors are afraid of treating fetal sepsis.
>>
>>> BTW, abortion within the first three month fits my preference, but I
>>> also heavily favor the right to free speech... and also, of course,
>>> the right to defend myself and others with firearms.
>>
>>I prefer a meaningful balance of all rights: free speech as long as it's
>>victimless (i.e. excluding hate speech), restrict highway speeds when
>>it's appropriate for safety or environmental reasons, provide a legal
>>system where all inhabitants feel safe by having a highly trained police
>>force controlled by a robust legal system to prevent police abuse but
>>I'm aware that a good balance is almost impossible to achieve.
>>
>>Rolf
>

>"Hate speech," is, of course a meaningless term.

That depends on which side of the fence you are standing on. Calling
Trump a rapist seems to be a perfectly honest statement according to
the woman and a terrible lie according to Trump :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But it makes such a logical sounding argument :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:02:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/13/2023 3:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 7/13/2023 1:54 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 7/13/2023 11:34 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/12/2023 4:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've argued, it is not the guns it is the people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All countries have people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Few countries, and no similarly prosperous westernized
>>>>>> countries, have
>>>>>> the gun violence problems at the level found in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Other countries do have the gun ownership, the
>>>>> Scandinavian for example,
>>>>> due to hunting and well Russia!
>>>>>
>>>>> And closer to you Canada, all have lots of guns, but

>>>>> they don’t have the

>>>>> same rate of mass shootings, which is a America thing,

>>>>> ie it’s more that

>>>>> the guns being around.
>>>>
>>>> Scandinavian countries and Canada all have much more
>>>> rational (i.e. much
>>>> stricter) gun control laws than the U.S. Hunting arms are
>>>> allowed and
>>>> popular, but quasi-military toys are tremendously
>>>> restricted. Guns are
>>>> licensed, background checks are real, etc.
>>>

>>> Even so huge numbers of guns in the country’s and it’s

>>> more than just
>>> hunting also having Russia close by!
>>>
>>> Yes you have to have paperwork for the guns and so on, but
>>> still huge

>>> numbers about, after all Americans aren’t legally
>>> allowed to mass murder
>>> people, it’s more than simply lots of guns in lots of

>>> hands.
>>>>
>>>> Please remember, I'm solidly in favor of guns used for
>>>> hunting. U.S. gun
>>>> culture is pointed in a completely different direction.
>>>>

>>> It’s Cultural and very much is a America thing.

>>
>> One relevant aspect of the American gun culture is the
>> emphasis on the ability to kill people, as opposed to deer,
>> grouse, rabbits, groundhogs, etc. Gun magazines talk about
>> "defense," as if every American household has armed robbers
>> near the side porch, waiting for their chance.
>>
>> I've linked videos of pot-bellied middle aged men dodging
>> from place to place while blasting away at human-shaped
>> targets. Human silhouettes with center-of-mass markers are
>> common as targets at ranges. Accessory magazines are
>> available to hold more and more rounds. All that has nothing
>> to do with hunting, and very, very little to do with real
>> home security. Does that go on even in Finland?
>>
>> It's as if the most macho Americans are prepared for an
>> armed invasion by Canadians. Or perhaps it's zombies, or
>> some other fantasy.
>>
>
>Some very large portion of USAians own firearms and, as
>discussed here ad infinitum, we are a large country with
>staggering diversity in all it forms. Are some lawful
>firearms owners whack jobs? I assume so, although I don't
>know any. Probably like nutcase black pickup truck owners, eh?
>
>p.s. Hunting is utterly irrelevant, a red herring. You will
>find no instance of hunting in our Constitution, the
>Federalist, the Framers' debates nor in their
>correspondence. The word 'tyranny' appears often.

And... only a tiny percent of gun owners commit crimes with their
firearms. There are more then 20 million AR type forearms in the hands
of civilians in the U.S. and over and over the FBI crime statistics
show that fewer homicides are committed with rifles of all sorts then
with hands and feet. The latest report I see is 2021 with 410
homicides committed with a rifle of any kind.... 410/20 million...

The justice in penalizing more then 20 million people because 410
people committed a crime seems, at least to me, a travesty... at best.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

It is surprising that a bloke who used to teach school gets something
as simple as the U.S. Constitution wrong.

The so called "bill of rights" came about because a significant number
of the people involved in developing the basic law of the land was
terrified that the national government would become the overwhelming
government agency in the country, to the point that there was actually
a movement to name Washington the King. The Newburgh letter.

And thus the second Amendment guarantees the citizens of the states
the right to own and bear arms.... to possibly defend them selves
against a Federal Government.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 08:08:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Some people, myself included, have looked at Ultrasound images of
their children, and in my case, grandchildren in the womb and have
become emotionally attached. There are many ways to prevent unwanted
pregnancy and in my opinion, the first three month of pregnancy is
adequate for a woman to decide she does not want to give birth.

[Catrike Rider]

They're almost always using semi-automatic pistols according to the
news releases. High capacity mags are faily common in semi-automatic
pistols, you know.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 21:33:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Nonesense... I simply prefer having guns in my home, but you, on the
other hand, are so timid as to being afraid of having guns in your
home...

...and you can't say that you simply prefer not having them after
telling people they should fear having a gun in your home because it
makes it more likely that they'll be shot.

<CHUCKLE> Now, why would a person be telling people they should be
afraid of something, they themselves have no fear of?

[John B.]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 03:25:20 -0400, Catrike Rider

According to what I read a fetus is sufficiently developed to live
outside the mother at abut 12 - 13 weeks. Prior to that it can hardly
be termed a "human".

But more to the point, given that a number of women die due to
pregnancy or in giving birth how can the decision NOT be solely the
woman's.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

>> country’s long tradition of military conscription. Despite

>> this, the country still has low levels of gun crime and lots
>> of people enjoy shooting for sport.
>>
>
>As Mr Mantel and I discussed here yesterday, I assume Swiss
>are comfortable with Swiss law.
>
>To me that sounds like a nightmare.
>
>Once the government knows where all the weapons are and who
>has them, there is no individual liberty remaining and our
>2d Amendment becomes meaningless.

The less the government knows about me the happier I am. I've ignored
most of the questions on the census forms. I'm ok with being counted,
but how many toilets we have is none of their business. So far, I've
not had any government toadies show up at my homes and demand the
answers to those questions. I'm quite happy being insignifiant to the
governments.

[John B.]

The Glock 19 has a standard magazine holding 15 rounds, the 19X holds
17. If you start with a full magazine and one on the chamber you have
16 or 18 empties.
And, I read that something like 1 million Glock pistols are sold
annually in the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

>>> country’s long tradition of military conscription. Despite

>>> this, the country still has low levels of gun crime and lots
>>> of people enjoy shooting for sport.
>>>
>>
>> As Mr Mantel and I discussed here yesterday, I assume Swiss are
>> comfortable with Swiss law.
>>
>> To me that sounds like a nightmare.
>>
>> Once the government knows where all the weapons are and who has them,
>> there is no individual liberty remaining and our 2d Amendment becomes
>> meaningless.
>
>And yet, the Swiss have been content with their system since... when?
>Forever?
>
>Perhaps they are less paranoid.

Most Europeans are generally less concerned with freedom.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 11:28:12 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Thanks for demonstrating my point....