No mention of helmet

[AMuzi]

https://cwbchicago.com/2023/06/new-chicago-resident-charged-four-robberies-carjacking-loop.html

Inquiring readers wonder whether the junior mugger was
wearing a helmet when he dumped his bicycle. If he was, it
may have saved his life so he could then accost the helpful
woman passing by.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Democrats won't prosecute him.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:35:09?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/06/new-chicago-resident-charged-four-robberies-carjacking-loop.html
>>
>> Inquiring readers wonder whether the junior mugger was
>> wearing a helmet when he dumped his bicycle. If he was, it
>> may have saved his life so he could then accost the helpful
>> woman passing by.

>Democrats won't prosecute him.

Thank you for introducing a political component to the discussion.
Next time you actually vote in an election, you might notice that the
county sheriffs, judges and district attorneys positions are
non-political.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

On 6/29/2023 11:36 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:35:09?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/06/new-chicago-resident-charged-four-robberies-carjacking-loop.html
>>>
>>> Inquiring readers wonder whether the junior mugger was
>>> wearing a helmet when he dumped his bicycle. If he was, it
>>> may have saved his life so he could then accost the helpful
>>> woman passing by.
>
>> Democrats won't prosecute him.
>
> Thank you for introducing a political component to the discussion.
> Next time you actually vote in an election, you might notice that the
> county sheriffs, judges and district attorneys positions are
> non-political.
>

Uh, That's in Ella Noise where elected Judges, Sheriffs and
State's Attorneys are extremely (some might say at this
point fatally) political.

In California, as (AFAIK) all States, county Sheriffs are
not only elected but are the highest ranking LE position.

I don't know about CA judges but CA county prosecutors are
both elected and also (newsy!) subject to voter recall.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 13:26:11 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 6/29/2023 11:36 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 07:25:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 6:35:09?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2023/06/new-chicago-resident-charged-four-robberies-carjacking-loop.html
>>>>
>>>> Inquiring readers wonder whether the junior mugger was
>>>> wearing a helmet when he dumped his bicycle. If he was, it
>>>> may have saved his life so he could then accost the helpful
>>>> woman passing by.
>>
>>> Democrats won't prosecute him.
>>
>> Thank you for introducing a political component to the discussion.
>> Next time you actually vote in an election, you might notice that the
>> county sheriffs, judges and district attorneys positions are
>> non-political.

>Uh, That's in Ella Noise where elected Judges, Sheriffs and
>State's Attorneys are extremely (some might say at this
>point fatally) political.

They're also political in California. The reason is that getting
elected requires money. I order to get funding, the candidates can
accept donations, but not from political parties. However, I suspect
that this rule is not strictly followed. Anyway, my point is that
party preferences are not suppose to be a factor in prosecuting
criminals.

>In California, as (AFAIK) all States, county Sheriffs are
>not only elected but are the highest ranking LE position.

In California, the highest ranking law enforcement official is the
state attorney general.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_California>
"According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics' 2008 Census of
State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, California had 509 law
enforcement agencies..."

>I don't know about CA judges but CA county prosecutors are
>both elected and also (newsy!) subject to voter recall.

Yep. In California, the prosecutor is called the "district attorney".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=california+district+attorney+recall>

The Republican's started this recall, but it was officially led by the
Democrats:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_San_Francisco_District_Attorney_recall_election>

[Tom Kunich]

But you simply cannot believe the people that remain here in California. While having my coffee at the half way mark of my 47 mile ride this morning. The next table over were three motorcycle riders discussing how you should pay road taxes. First they went from mileage taxes so that electric cars would pay their own fare share (electric cars are about 2 times as heavy as a ICE car with a full gas tank) Well, how would you know how much mileage in order to charge the road tax? Why you connect everything though the Internet so that you always know where anyone is and how many miles they've driven. Then they came up with yet a better answer - you charge people road taxes NOT by how much they actually use the roads, but by how much income they have. Somehow they seemed to think that that is how it works in Europe and the communist agenda always is better than freedom. Were these kids? No, they were people over 60 living in one of the most expensive areas in the East Bay.

These sorts of people completely agree with the Soros funded prosecutors unless THEY are the targets of criminal actions. Then suddenly it is unfair.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>electric cars are about 2 times as heavy as a ICE car with a full gas tank.

Amazing. Note the curb weight includes the weight of fuel:
<https://www.quora.com/Is-a-Tesla-heavier-than-an-ICE-car-of-equal-size>

Google: "curb weight <vehicle>" for any comparison set you want.
Here are the results of those queries for two Teslas and what
I think of as an example Audi and BMW of similar size. I’m
quite surprised at how closely they match up in weight.

Tesla Model S - Curb weight 4,647 lbs
Audi A8 - Curb weight 4,751 lbs
BMW 7 series - Curb weight 4,244 - 4,848 lbs

Tesla Model 3 - Curb weight 3,627 to 4,072 lbs
Audi A4 - Curb weight 3,450 to 3,627 lbs
BMW 3 series - 3,582 to 4,010 lbs

The Tesla Model 3 is 104 lbs heavier than the Audio A8 or:
(4,751 - 4,647 lbs) / 4,647 = 2.2% heavier.
That will have the same effect on road damage as a typical teenage
passenger. 2.2% is nowhere near your contrived "2 times as heavy".
Depending on your choice of comparative ICE vehicles, options and
accessories, the results are similar.

Some Tesla Models can weigh over 6,000 lbs because of the incentives
and tax credits offered to heavy weights:
<https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives>
As part of the 2023 Inflation Reduction Act, eligible
businesses and tax-exempt organizations can claim up
to a $7,500 credit when purchasing new Tesla vehicles
with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of up to
14,000 pounds. All Tesla passenger vehicles qualify
for this incentive:
Model S Model 3 Model X Model Y

If you can provide some evidence that demonstrates your assertion that
an EV is twice as heavy at a comparable ICE vehicle, I'm willing to
listen.

Score: 1 claim, zero correct.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I got busy yesterday and didn't get a chance to respond - you grabbed the low-hanging fruit. I also noted two other points.

" you charge people road taxes NOT by how much they actually use the roads, but by how much income they have"

Not a new idea. It works _sort_ of like that in Massachusetts. The tax base for road maintenance is paid by a combination of the gas tax (roughly equating to miles driven) and a yearly Excise tax based on the value of the vehicle. The former goes to the state for state-funded road maintenance while the latter goes to the town for locally funded projects. This latter segment has a reasonable relationship to income. Higher income people tend to drive more expensive cars and replace them more often such that the tax burden remains elevated, while lower income people drive less expensive cars and keep them longer. Of course, there are ways to beat that. I'm still driving my 2009 Honda Element (nearly 200K miles and still going strong) and my excise tax was $56. I can hardly be considered low-income.

I don't know how many other states levy road taxes based on vehicle value, but neighboring new hampshire charges by GVW.

" Somehow they seemed to think that that is how it works in Europe"

Most if not all european countries charge a VAT on vehicles- again, a reasonable correlation to income.

"and the communist agenda always is better than freedom."

because all of europe is communist....got it.

> Were these kids? No, they were people over 60 living in one of the most expensive areas in the East Bay.

Inotherwords: wealthier, more educated, more life experience. Why would anyone want to give any credibility to someone like that?

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me that Flunky and know-nothing Liebermann were cherry picking as usual. Here is what the email said:

"Your statements as usual were answered with stupid and corrupt comments. A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."

Well I suppose this is nothing more than yet another example of the engineering prowess of two idiots that like to flaunt their degrees.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me that Flunky and know-nothing Liebermann were cherry picking as usual. Here is what the email said:

I didn't do the "cherry picking". I cited which provided a suitable
comparison.
<https://www.quora.com/Is-a-Tesla-heavier-than-an-ICE-car-of-equal-size>

Good to know that your anonymous informant works all night on your
behalf.

>"Your statements as usual were answered with stupid and corrupt comments. A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."

Which year and model Tesla?
On what criteria do you claim that the Corolla and Kia Forte cars are
comparable to an unspecified model Tesla?

At least your ICE engine weights are close:

The 2023 Toyota Corolla has a curb weight of 2,955 - 3,150 lbs.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+corolla+curb+weight>

The 2023 Kia Forte has a curb weight of 2,908 - 3,079
<https://www.google.com/search?q=kia+forte+curb+weight>

No score today because Tom forgot to include his sources of
information.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/30/2023 10:23 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me...

You got no such email. Nobody would be foolish enough to email you
reports on posts made to a public group. Why would they? And how would
that make more sense than just reading the original posts?

Nobody but you would pretend something so unreasonable ever happened.
Nobody but you would think that scenario was even plausible. Your weird
claim makes you look even more foolish each time you post it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 11:05:43 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me that Flunky and know-nothing Liebermann were cherry picking as usual. Here is what the email said:
> I didn't do the "cherry picking". I cited which provided a suitable
> comparison.
> <https://www.quora.com/Is-a-Tesla-heavier-than-an-ICE-car-of-equal-size>
>
> Good to know that your anonymous informant works all night on your
> behalf.
> >"Your statements as usual were answered with stupid and corrupt comments. A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."
> Which year and model Tesla?
> On what criteria do you claim that the Corolla and Kia Forte cars are
> comparable to an unspecified model Tesla?
>
> At least your ICE engine weights are close:
>
> The 2023 Toyota Corolla has a curb weight of 2,955 - 3,150 lbs.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+corolla+curb+weight>
>
> The 2023 Kia Forte has a curb weight of 2,908 - 3,079
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=kia+forte+curb+weight>
>
> No score today because Tom forgot to include his sources of
> information.
> --

We did find out two things, however:
- tom doesn't understand the term "cherry picking".
- tom doesn't realize the Corolla and the forte' are considered to be a class below the cheapest Tesla - the Model 3.

Besides that, His claim was "twice the weight".....Lets see....

https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/corolla/specs/2023/toyota_corolla_toyota-corolla-sedan_2023/430752
starting at $22,795 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 2908

https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/forte/specs/2023/kia_forte-forte5_kia-forte_2023/430180
starting at $20,815 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 2955

https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3/specs/2023/tesla_model-3_tesla-model-3_2023/434045
$41,880 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 3862

We can see here that the cheapest Tesla base price is twice as expensive as the cheapest Corolla or Forte, and the weights are a _far_ cry from double.

No, In order to have a comparable selection, we have to go with the Crown from Toyota
https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/crown/specs/2023/toyota_crown_toyota-crown_2023/431412
starting at $41,045 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 3980

~$800 less and 20 pounds more

Or we have to go with a Kia Stinger
https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/stinger/specs/2023/kia_stinger_kia-stinger_2023/428595
starting at $37865 MSRP - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 3611

Kia doesn't actually make a sedan with a base price over $40K But here we see the Stinger ~$4000 less, and ~200lbs lighter.

As usual, the axiom "Tom Is Wrong, Of Course"* is proven correct once again.

*© Scharf

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:05:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me that Flunky and know-nothing Liebermann were cherry picking as usual. Here is what the email said:
>
>I didn't do the "cherry picking". I cited which provided a suitable
>comparison.
><https://www.quora.com/Is-a-Tesla-heavier-than-an-ICE-car-of-equal-size>
>
>Good to know that your anonymous informant works all night on your
>behalf.
>
>>"Your statements as usual were answered with stupid and corrupt comments. A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."
>
>Which year and model Tesla?
>On what criteria do you claim that the Corolla and Kia Forte cars are
>comparable to an unspecified model Tesla?
>
>At least your ICE engine weights are close:
>
>The 2023 Toyota Corolla has a curb weight of 2,955 - 3,150 lbs.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+corolla+curb+weight>
>
>The 2023 Kia Forte has a curb weight of 2,908 - 3,079
><https://www.google.com/search?q=kia+forte+curb+weight>
>
>No score today because Tom forgot to include his sources of
>information.

But Jeff... Tommy doesn't need a source. After all it is Tom the
expert (in everything) that you are talking to.

And if you don't believe me.... why just ask him :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:58:05 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>We did find out two things, however:
>- tom doesn't understand the term "cherry picking".
>- tom doesn't realize the Corolla and the forte' are considered to be a class below the cheapest Tesla - the Model 3.
>
>Besides that, His claim was "twice the weight".....Lets see....
>
>https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/corolla/specs/2023/toyota_corolla_toyota-corolla-sedan_2023/430752
>starting at $22,795 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 2908
>
>https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/forte/specs/2023/kia_forte-forte5_kia-forte_2023/430180
>starting at $20,815 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 2955
>
>https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3/specs/2023/tesla_model-3_tesla-model-3_2023/434045
> $41,880 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 3862
>
>We can see here that the cheapest Tesla base price is twice as expensive as the cheapest Corolla or Forte, and the weights are a _far_ cry from double.
>
>No, In order to have a comparable selection, we have to go with the Crown from Toyota
>https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/crown/specs/2023/toyota_crown_toyota-crown_2023/431412
>starting at $41,045 - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 3980
>
>~$800 less and 20 pounds more
>
>Or we have to go with a Kia Stinger
>https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/stinger/specs/2023/kia_stinger_kia-stinger_2023/428595
>starting at $37865 MSRP - Base Curb Weight (pounds) 3611
>
>Kia doesn't actually make a sedan with a base price over $40K But here we see the Stinger ~$4000 less, and ~200lbs lighter.
>
>As usual, the axiom "Tom Is Wrong, Of Course"* is proven correct once again.
>
>*© Scharf

Thanks for doing all that research. Assuming a Tesla Model 3, your
analysis debunks all of Tom's amazing facts.

Also, my apologies. I posted my comments in a hurry because I was
late for my Friday morning trudge. I didn't have time to provide a
proper comparison. I also butchered one sentence.

I think I adequately demonstrated my main points. However, I'm open
to Tom providing some additional information which might excavate him
from of the hole he dug for himself.

I'll wait a day or two for Tom to reply with
1. his sources,
2. which Tesla model he's using for his comparison
3. and why he considers the Toyota Corolla and Kia Forte to be
comparable with an unspecified model Tesla vehicle.

Incidentally, California is might be moving away from fuel tax based
road repair funding and toward a mileage based road tax:
<https://caroadcharge.com/about>
The main incentive is that EV's don't use fuel and therefore don't pay
their "fair share" of road maintenance costs.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 07:47:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>But Jeff... Tommy doesn't need a source.

Actually, Tom does have a single source of information.
<http://townhall.com>

>After all it is Tom the expert (in everything) that
>you are talking to.

Well, he certainly does have an opinion on everything. Ever notice
that he adds his opinions in every thread and discussion?

>And if you don't believe me.... why just ask him :-)

I have asked him, but he's ignoring me. I'm enjoying Tom's inability
to answer my questions, so I don't consider this to be a problem.

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 21:43:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 07:47:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>But Jeff... Tommy doesn't need a source.
>
>Actually, Tom does have a single source of information.
><http://townhall.com>
>
>>After all it is Tom the expert (in everything) that
>>you are talking to.
>
>Well, he certainly does have an opinion on everything. Ever notice
>that he adds his opinions in every thread and discussion?
>
>>And if you don't believe me.... why just ask him :-)
>
>I have asked him, but he's ignoring me. I'm enjoying Tom's inability
>to answer my questions, so I don't consider this to be a problem.

Well, of course he ignores you. After all you are one of the nasty
four, you know, those guys that back up their posts with data. Truth
sayers, one might call them (as opposed to truth slayer :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That's a complaint I've heard before, actually quite some time ago WRT to hybrids: vehicles like the original Prius and Insight were upwards of 50 MPG if driven judiciously, upsetting the V8 powered SUV/truck crowd who would struggle to maintain 20 MPG on the highway, IOW the hybrid drivers were paying less than half the taxes of the large vehicle drivers for the same milage.

Another similar argument is that bicycles don't pay any taxes for road use. While _specifically_ true, we also own three cars, In that context I'm paying more than my fair share per miles traveled.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:50:47 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

It literally took just over ten minutes. That Car and Driver page has a parametric search tool that makes looking up any vehicle a task of less than one minute.

>
> Also, my apologies. I posted my comments in a hurry because I was
> late for my Friday morning trudge. I didn't have time to provide a
> proper comparison. I also butchered one sentence.

You're one of the last people that would need to apologize for anything in this forum.

>
> I think I adequately demonstrated my main points. However, I'm open
> to Tom providing some additional information which might excavate him
> from of the hole he dug for himself.
>
> I'll wait a day or two for Tom to reply with
> 1. his sources,
> 2. which Tesla model he's using for his comparison
> 3. and why he considers the Toyota Corolla and Kia Forte to be
> comparable with an unspecified model Tesla vehicle.

ain't gonna happen

[Jeff Liebermann]

Vehicle weight is more important than mileage. The basic problem is
that using fuel consumption as a proxy for miles traveled is bad
enough when different vehicles can have radically different gasoline
mileages. Add EV to the puzzle, and a gas tax is unfair. I'm fairly
sure a suitably complicated and unfathomable formula that includes all
the possible factors will be rejected and whatever the state contrives
in its place will be generally unacceptable and possibly more
complicated and unfathomable.

"Vehicle Weight vs Road Damage Levels"
<https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/>
"It would take 700 trips by bicycle to equal the damage caused by one
Smart Car. It would take 17,059 trips by bike to equal the damage
caused by an average car. And it would take 364,520 bike trips to
equal the damage caused by just one Hummer H2."

Incidentally, we're having a problem with road damage on our private
road from 25,000 lb propane trucks. Typically, we were resurfacing
the road every 20 years.
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/U4cn1ZuMnepBBm9B9>
However, when all 5 local propane delivery companies switched from
delivery on demand, to cruising the roads to see if anyone needed
topping off, the propane delivery truck traffic tripled. The result
is that we will now need road resurfacing every 7 years.

>Another similar argument is that bicycles don't pay any taxes for
>road use. While _specifically_ true, we also own three cars, In
>that context I'm paying more than my fair share per miles traveled.

I've been dealing with our private road for about 50 years. Over this
time period, we have attempted to assess the residence using a variety
of complicated formulas in a futile attempt to deliver a truly fair
and equitable way to distribute the road repair costs. In 50 years,
we have yet to produce a usable method. I don't believe it can be
done. The science and calculations might suggest that such a system
can be contrived for our road maintenance and for the state road
taxes, but I'm not optimistic that people will accept anything that
they don't understand. Make it simple, and there might be hope, but
when new people and new ideas arrive, simplicity is usually the first
to be discarded. Good luck.

[pH]

On 2023-06-30, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me that Flunky and know-nothing Liebermann were cherry picking as usual. Here is what the email said:
>
> I didn't do the "cherry picking". I cited which provided a suitable
> comparison.
><https://www.quora.com/Is-a-Tesla-heavier-than-an-ICE-car-of-equal-size>
>
> Good to know that your anonymous informant works all night on your
> behalf.
>
>>"Your statements as usual were answered with stupid and corrupt comments. A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."
>
> Which year and model Tesla?
> On what criteria do you claim that the Corolla and Kia Forte cars are
> comparable to an unspecified model Tesla?
>
> At least your ICE engine weights are close:
>
> The 2023 Toyota Corolla has a curb weight of 2,955 - 3,150 lbs.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+corolla+curb+weight>
>
> The 2023 Kia Forte has a curb weight of 2,908 - 3,079
><https://www.google.com/search?q=kia+forte+curb+weight>
>
> No score today because Tom forgot to include his sources of
> information.
>

Morris Minor 1000 2-door: Kerb Weight 1,680 pounds.

pH

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 1 Jul 2023 23:47:35 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite. Which Tesla model would you considered comparable to
your Morris Minor? Comparing the latest electric vehicles with your
rolling anachronism is not going to work.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=morris+minor+1000&tbm=isch>
Besides, you already get a substantial discount on your vehicle
registration charges.

Also, "Curb vs Kerb"
<https://proofed.co.uk/writing-tips/word-choice-curb-vs-kerb/>
<https://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/curb_kerb.htm>

[Frank Krygowski]

The original British Mini was about 1300 pounds. Honda N600 even less.

The Tesla equivalent would be powered by Ni-Cads driving a portable
drill motor.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[pH]

I'll compare it to an electrified bicycle to stay on topic.

Registration was $6/year when I first got it....20 times that now!
Good old California.

pH

[AMuzi]

Handy chart here:
https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/

[AMuzi]

Corvair Corsa 140 2 door[1] at 1000kg is lighter than any
electric listed here:

https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/

Morris Minor is in another range!

[1]convertibles are significantly heavier

[Tom Kunich]

Good Ol California just increased gas taxes to 57 cents per gallon s0op that they can do road repairs. Most of the roads I ride on badly need repairs which California isn't accomplishing with their gas taxes.

[Tom Kunich]

But Flunky will tell you that Corvair's are "Unsafe at any Speed". Fools like him were standing in line to be suckered by anything.

[AMuzi]

On 7/2/2023 9:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> But Flunky will tell you that Corvair's are "Unsafe at any Speed". Fools like him were standing in line to be suckered by anything.
>

That's a feature, not a bug.

If they're 'unsafe at any speed', no reason not to drive
fast. Works for me.

Seriously it remains the case that a lie flies around the
world faster than the truth can tie its shoes:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/20/federal-study-refutes-naders-corvair-charges-july-20-1972-240609

[Frank Krygowski]

My Kia Niro is always reported to be 250 pounds lighter than what that
site claims. Admittedly, I haven't weighed the car, and that table
supposedly includes driver weight; but a 250 pound driver certainly
doesn't apply to me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Back in the day when I had a 2nd generation Corsa and tended to drive
fast, I used the transition from understeer to oversteer to gauge
cornering speed. It almost always worked very well.

There was one time I almost got into serious trouble, from failing to
account for the sudden downhill component of a sharp right curve. The
car slid out a bit and scared the hell out of me, but I recovered the
slide and proceeded a bit more cautiously. And I'm sure I was at a speed
that most drivers of any car would never attempt.

These days I'm wiser. I get my fun in ways that are safer for me and
others.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:46:21 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
(chomp)

>Handy chart here:
>https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/

Thanks. Back to Tom's original claim:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QM7CD5zO3hc/m/oqiQC1EuAAAJ>

"A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are
more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The
battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."

Looking at the chart, there is only one EV on the chart that weights
over 2,900 lbs, but it's not made by Tesla. The heaviest Tesla on the
list is the "Tesla Model S Perf Raven" at 2,360 lbs. Therefore,
there's no need for Tom to disclose the Tesla model upon which he
based his claim because it doesn't exist.

Score: 1 claim, totally wrong.

[Jeff Liebermann]

In the US, the drivers weight and baggage are not included in the curb
weight. In the EU, 75-kilogram (165 lb) for the driver and luggage
are added.

More than you probably wanted to know:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_weight>
"...the total mass of a vehicle with standard equipment and all
necessary operating consumables such as motor oil, transmission oil,
brake fluid, coolant, air conditioning refrigerant, and sometimes a
full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo."

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 09:13:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:46:21 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>(chomp)
>>Handy chart here:
>>https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>
>Thanks. Back to Tom's original claim:
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QM7CD5zO3hc/m/oqiQC1EuAAAJ>
>"A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are
>more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The
>battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."
>
>Looking at the chart, there is only one EV on the chart that weights
>over 2,900 lbs, but it's not made by Tesla. The heaviest Tesla on the
>list is the "Tesla Model S Perf Raven" at 2,360 lbs. Therefore,
>there's no need for Tom to disclose the Tesla model upon which he
>based his claim because it doesn't exist.
>
>Score: 1 claim, totally wrong.

I forgot to fact check the weight of the battery pack and underbody
shield. Tom claims 2500 lbs, which seems rather large for his
mythical 2900 lb Tesla at:
2500 / 2900 = 86%
of the weight of the Tesla. Remove that battery pack and Tom's
mythical Tesla would only weigh 400 lbs. That's unlikely and
impossible.

Returning to reality, the battery packs weigh:
<https://getjerry.com/questions/how-much-does-a-tesla-battery-weigh>
Tesla Model 3: 1,060 pounds
Tesla Model X: 1,183 pounds
Tesla Model S: 1,200 pounds
Tesla Model Y: 1,700 pounds

I couldn't find any numbers for the weight of the underbody shield.
Over the years, the shield has been made from aluminum, stainless
steel, titanium, or various combinations of these. My admittedly
uninformed guess(tm) is that it adds no more than 100 lbs to the
weight of the vehicle, which would not help verify Tom's claim.

Score: 1 claim, still totally wrong.

[Roger Meriman]

They are apparently not bad for conversions ie use Tesla or leaf motors and
batteries in Morris Minors and similar, the weight gain isn’t huge though
the performance can be. In which case do need to upgrade some components
but if one doesn’t then apparently not.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Rather than stooping to dirty tricks it was easy enough to counter. Oversteer isn't a problem if the car is driven correctly and not so that it loses traction. And the oversteer disappeared completely in later models. Nader was a first class creep that was almost an knowledgeable about cars as he was about the aliens of Area 51.

[Tom Kunich]

No he says - he did not cherry pick by selecting very expensive European luxury cars instead of what most people drive. What do you suppose makes anyone think that Tesla's are a luxury car? The price? Obviously no one that has ever looked inside a Tesla.

I believe that Tesla puts a battery guard the length of the car but a 5' x 5' x 2" aluminum plate is 700 lbs. If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own oxygen if you spray water on the fire. So a strong guard is indicated and STILL Tesla fires are common enough that most commuters have seen one.

I realize that Liebermann is incapable of looking something up, but if he wants me to do his work for him, he can shove it. Hey Liebermann - has your cancer reoccurred yet?

[AMuzi]

On 7/2/2023 4:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> batteries in Morris Minors and similar, the weight gain isn’t huge though

>> the performance can be. In which case do need to upgrade some components

>> but if one doesn’t then apparently not.

>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> No he says - he did not cherry pick by selecting very expensive European luxury cars instead of what most people drive. What do you suppose makes anyone think that Tesla's are a luxury car? The price? Obviously no one that has ever looked inside a Tesla.
>
> I believe that Tesla puts a battery guard the length of the car but a 5' x 5' x 2" aluminum plate is 700 lbs. If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own oxygen if you spray water on the fire. So a strong guard is indicated and STILL Tesla fires are common enough that most commuters have seen one.
>
> I realize that Liebermann is incapable of looking something up, but if he wants me to do his work for him, he can shove it. Hey Liebermann - has your cancer reoccurred yet?

I don't know but a 50mm aluminum panel seems excessively thick.

regarding

>"If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own
oxygen"

I don't think that's right. The oxidation chemistry experts
don't mention that as a factor
https://nfsa.org/2023/01/12/lithium-ion-battery-fires/

Lithium is just highly reactive. Note also 'thermal runaway'
phenomenon in link above.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm just repeating what a local fire captain said since no amount of water puts these fires out. 30,000 gallons of water isn't putting the fire out - it is taking so long to pump that much water on the cars that they consume the batteries in that amount of time.

When I got my new Android, they insisted I get a phone guard. I assumed that this was to protect the screen but a minor drop cracked the screen so it must be to protect the battery.

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 2:40:47 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

I'm pretty sure that Tesla said that they were installing a 2" thick battery guard. The vehicles seem to be going everywhere on the Freeway at 90 mph so throwing metallic road debris against the battery guard doesn't seem extraordinary to me.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/2/2023 5:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that Tesla said that they were installing a 2" thick battery guard. The vehicles seem to be going everywhere on the Freeway at 90 mph so throwing metallic road debris against the battery guard doesn't seem extraordinary to me.

[and]

> I believe that Tesla puts a battery guard the length of the car but a 5' x 5' x 2" aluminum plate is 700 lbs.

Tom, you're nuts. Even a totally uneducated person should not think a 2"
thick solid aluminum plate made sense for protecting an EV battery.

That would be like building a bicycle frame out of solid metal bars
instead of tubes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

More than you wanted to know about that including photos:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091366_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-safety-shield-in-detail-photos

The "two inches" probably refers to the width of the
aluminum girder. Owner reports the entire assembly weighs "a
few pounds" which I think may discount something that looks
like 60~80 lb to me but I don't actually know. I agree that
"700lb" is improbable at best.

[John B.]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 16:40:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/2/2023 4:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> batteries in Morris Minors and similar, the weight gain isn’t huge though

>>> the performance can be. In which case do need to upgrade some components

>>> but if one doesn’t then apparently not.

>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> No he says - he did not cherry pick by selecting very expensive European luxury cars instead of what most people drive. What do you suppose makes anyone think that Tesla's are a luxury car? The price? Obviously no one that has ever looked inside a Tesla.
>>
>> I believe that Tesla puts a battery guard the length of the car but a 5' x 5' x 2" aluminum plate is 700 lbs. If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own oxygen if you spray water on the fire. So a strong guard is indicated and STILL Tesla fires are common enough that most commuters have seen one.
>>
>> I realize that Liebermann is incapable of looking something up, but if he wants me to do his work for him, he can shove it. Hey Liebermann - has your cancer reoccurred yet?
>
>I don't know but a 50mm aluminum panel seems excessively thick.
>
>regarding
> >"If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own
>oxygen"
>
>I don't think that's right. The oxidation chemistry experts
>don't mention that as a factor
>https://nfsa.org/2023/01/12/lithium-ion-battery-fires/
>
>Lithium is just highly reactive. Note also 'thermal runaway'
>phenomenon in link above.

Apparently Tesla cars have a more complex under car shielding then a
singe sheet of aluminum. See
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbody-shield-and-aluminum-deflector-plates-model-s
which mentions a "triple under body shield" made of aluminum and
titanium.
The reference is dated 2014, so apparently this multi underbody
shielding is about 10 years old.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 10:24:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/2/2023 9:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I seem to remember Road and Track tearing Nador's book apart claim by
claim, and pointed out that he had exaggerated or in some cases just
plain lied in order to "prove" American (mostly) made cars were
dangerious,

The problem was that Nader wrote the book to appeal to people who had
little or no knowledge of how an automobile actually functions while
the R&T article was written for people that knew something about
automobiles.

So while the knowledgeable knew Nador was speaking with a forked
tongue the hoi-polloi thought he was almost literally Moses carrying
the stones down from the mountain.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 7/2/2023 8:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 10:24:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/2/2023 9:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Exactly.

Or as the old joke goes, Moses came down from the mountain
and said, "Good news! I talked him down to just ten!"

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 2 Jul 2023 14:13:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>No he says - he did not cherry pick by selecting very expensive European luxury cars instead of what most people drive. What do you suppose makes anyone think that Tesla's are a luxury car? The price? Obviously no one that has ever looked inside a Tesla.

I didn't pick the selection of gasoline powered cars to compare with
an unidentified model Tesla. You made that selection.

>I believe that Tesla puts a battery guard the length of the car but a 5' x 5' x 2" aluminum plate is 700 lbs.

Show me a photo of a 2" thick slab of aluminum under any model Tesla
and might start believing your claims. Here's what it looks like
under a Tesla Model S in 2014:
Battery Safety Shield In Detail (Photos)
<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091366_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-safety-shield-in-detail-photos>
After 2014, the Model S used a mostly Titanium shield.
<http://www.carverse.com/news/tesla-to-install-titanium-battery-shield--deflector-to-model-s/>
More photos:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=Tesla+battery+safety+shield&tbm=isch>

>If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own oxygen if you spray water on the fire.

Wow. You finally got something correct. The LiIon battery cathode
and the organic solvents in the electrolyte are the sources of oxygen:
"Why do Lithium-ion Batteries Catch Fire?"
<https://www.saurenergy.com/solar-energy-blog/why-do-lithium-ion-batteries-catch-fire-how-to-avoid-the-mishap>

>So a strong guard is indicated

Thick is not the same thing as strong.

>and STILL Tesla fires are common enough that most commuters have seen one.

Wrong.
<https://blog.gitnux.com/tesla-car-fire-statistics/>
"There have been approximately 28 Tesla car fires worldwide between
2012 and 2020."

>I realize that Liebermann is incapable of looking something up,
>but if he wants me to do his work for him, he can shove it.

I want you to stop lying and fabricating numbers. You can do your own
homework. Do you even care if your information is correct?

>Hey Liebermann - has your cancer reoccurred yet?

Not yet, but it might be a problem in the future. I visited my
cardiologist last week. He indicated that although my PSA (prostate
specific antigen) is increasing, the numbers are too low to be a
concern. Something else will kill me first. Thank you for your
concern:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/PSA-recent.jpg>

Score: 5 claims, zero substantiated and only 1 correct.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 18:54:33 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>Wrong.
><https://blog.gitnux.com/tesla-car-fire-statistics/>
>"There have been approximately 28 Tesla car fires worldwide between
>2012 and 2020."

Oops. That's much too old. This is up to date:

<https://www.tesla-fire.com>
Total Tesla Fires as of 7/2/2023: 198 confirmed cases
Fatalities Involving a Tesla Car Fire Count: 62

"How Many Vehicles Are Sold Across the Globe?"
Tesla has sold 1,917,450 units since its beginning.

198 / 1,917,450 = 0.01% have caught fire since 2003.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 10:29:36 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> But Flunky will tell you that Corvair's are "Unsafe at any Speed".

And tommy will tell you that the water pressure coming out of his garden hose is the same as a pressure washer.

> Fools like him were standing in line to be suckered by anything.

Hey, did you manage find another set of those special campagnolo non-stretch shifter cables yet?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 5:13:53 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> No he says - he did not cherry pick by selecting very expensive European luxury cars instead of what most people drive.

lol...silly tommy thinks a BMW 3 series and an Audi A4 are "luxury" cars....

> What do you suppose makes anyone think that Tesla's are a luxury car? The price?

No one said that, moron....

>
> I believe that Tesla puts a battery guard the length of the car but a 5' x 5' x 2" aluminum plate is 700 lbs.

No, Tesla does not put a 700 pound plate under the car. They use three components: Some extruded aluminum tubing, a titanium plate, and some composite peices
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091366_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-safety-shield-in-detail-photos

> If a lithium ion battery is ignited it creates its own oxygen if you spray water on the fire. So a strong guard is indicated and STILL Tesla fires are common enough that most commuters have seen one.

No, they aren't common. I don't know of anyone who has seen one.
https://www.carsdover.com/tesla-car-fire-statistics/
"Tesla vehicles have had a fire rate of one for every 175 million miles traveled compared to the U.S. average a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled."

>
> I realize that Liebermann is incapable of looking something up, but if he wants me to do his work for him, he can shove it.

Tommy accusing someone else of being incapable of looking anything up.....priceless....

> Hey Liebermann - has your cancer reoccurred yet?

Hey tommy, did you lose another $7000 last month?

[Tom Kunich]

Titanium is almost twice the weight of aluminum. Frank will no doubt tell you that a sheet of 1/16th titanium will easily fend off a large metal road debris because it would otherwise contradict his cause.

I just real a REDDIT report in which the buyer of a Tesla kept it only for 12 weeks because he was paying for a luxury car and getting a cheaply made car. He finally settled for a Mercedes.

This is what happens when the Stupid 4 are entirely biased to the point that they will contradict me no matter WHAT the facts are.

[Frank Krygowski]

More accurately: Titanium' _density_ is about 1.7 times the _density_ of
aluminum. Weight =/= density, Tom.

> Frank will no doubt tell you that a sheet of 1/16th titanium will easily fend off a large metal road debris because it would otherwise contradict his cause.

Aside from the fact that you're trying to put words in my mouth (see
"Straw Man Fallacy"), your final phrase is nonsensical.

What is your actual claim regarding the titanium vs. aluminum debris
shield? Are you still claiming that Teslas have a two-inch-thick slab of
aluminum that weighs hundreds of pounds on their bottom? Or are you
claiming that Tesla's real battery shield will not protect their battery?

Or are you just rambling as usual?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Because of his ego, Frank does not believe that there are quite a few silent onlookers that do not like him. But I got a notice that Frank has said that "Density is not equal to weight". Think about that for a minute - that comes from a man who was a teacher. A solid's mass is EXPRESSED as weight per volume so Frank is taking the preposterous position that a solid may have vacuum or air inclusions and hence not weigh what a proper mass would be. The man is so scrapping for possibilities to contradict me that he makes an absolute ass out of himself. Oh, wait, NO ONE ELSE could possibly see through his charades.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/3/2023 2:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:> But I got a notice ...

You got no notice, email or otherwise, Tom. You read the public post
here. Pretending someone is sending you "notices" is laughable.

> ... that Frank has said that "Density is not equal to weight".

It's not. Any successful high school physics student should know that.
See https://www.differencebetween.info/difference-between-density-and-weight

> Think about that for a minute - that comes from a man who was a teacher. A solid's mass is EXPRESSED as weight per volume...

No, mass is not expressed as weight per volume. Weight per volume would
carry units of lb/ft^3 in U.S. units, or Newtons/m^3 in SI units. Mass
is expressed as kilograms in SI, or (variously) "pounds mass (lbm)" or
"Slugs" in the tortuous U.S. unit system. The different units indicate
you're talking about fundamentally different quantities.

You're making as much sense as if you tried to measure a bike's frame
size in degrees Fahrenheit.

> ... so Frank is taking the preposterous position that a solid may have vacuum or air inclusions and hence not weigh what a proper mass would be.

Wow, are you confused! I said nothing that implies that.

But then, you never did complete even an elementary physics course, did
you?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Again Frank's ego doesn't allow him to understand the world around him. He must have been a worthless teacher - I already showed the fact that the college where he worked at, wouldn't even acknowledge that he taught mechanical engineering but rather "industrial engineering" so it should come as no surprise that he has therefore decided that mass doesn't equal weight because you may not be under one Earth gravity. And yet he doesn't believe that people are laughing at him and sending me what he says.

Yes, mass is the amount of MATTER and therefore under different G forces would weigh differently. When was the last time you left Earth? What a bozo.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/3/2023 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I already showed the fact that the college where he worked at, wouldn't even acknowledge that he taught mechanical engineering but rather "industrial engineering" ...

You keep claiming that. But you've never provided a link or any other
evidence, because your claim is false.

And no matter how many times you repeat that claim, it will never become
true.

- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 11:13:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A solid's mass is EXPRESSED as weight per volume

Wrong. Here are some videos that explain the basic concepts. Sorry
about having to resort to videos, but I couldn't find any cartoons or
comics books:

GCSE Physics - Forces 2 - Mass, Weight and Density
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaO68r7jov8>

Physics - What Is The Difference Between Mass and Weight?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB_WoV071vc>

The Difference Between Mass and Weight
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0X0yE8Ioc>

Neil deGrasse Tyson Explains the Difference Between Mass, Weight, and
Density
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s9AYGYm_iI>

You can probably skip the part about density because you already know
what it means to be dense:
<https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/dense>
"slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity"

[pH]

On 2023-07-02, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> On 7/1/2023 6:47 PM, pH wrote:
>> On 2023-06-30, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

>>> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, I got up this morning to an email telling me that Flunky and know-nothing Liebermann were cherry picking as usual. Here is what the email said:
>>>
>>> I didn't do the "cherry picking". I cited which provided a suitable
>>> comparison.
>>> <https://www.quora.com/Is-a-Tesla-heavier-than-an-ICE-car-of-equal-size>
>>>
>>> Good to know that your anonymous informant works all night on your
>>> behalf.
>>>
>>>> "Your statements as usual were answered with stupid and corrupt comments. A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."
>>>
>>> Which year and model Tesla?
>>> On what criteria do you claim that the Corolla and Kia Forte cars are
>>> comparable to an unspecified model Tesla?
>>>
>>> At least your ICE engine weights are close:
>>>
>>> The 2023 Toyota Corolla has a curb weight of 2,955 - 3,150 lbs.
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+corolla+curb+weight>
>>>
>>> The 2023 Kia Forte has a curb weight of 2,908 - 3,079
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=kia+forte+curb+weight>
>>>
>>> No score today because Tom forgot to include his sources of
>>> information.
>>>
>>
>> Morris Minor 1000 2-door: Kerb Weight 1,680 pounds.
>>
>> pH
>>
>

> Handy chart here:
> https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>

Wow! That's a nifty link....there *are* electrics lighter than the good ol'
Morris...and quite a few to choose from, actually.

Thanks, Mr. M.

pH

[Tom Kunich]

They are quite short ranged and do not have proper battery protection. Like all EV's the so called range reduces about 20% in the first couple of months and companies will not change batteries out on warranty because you're expected to understand this. EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact. There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion which is why Elon opened his own battery factory in Nevada so he could have tighter control over battery QC. Most of the EV's in the world do not use his batteries.

Elon, though a responsible person is certainly not going to tell you the negatives of EV's.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/4/2023 10:52 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Like all EV's the so called range reduces about 20% in the first couple of months ...

As the owner of a 14 month old EV, let me say: Bullshit. Tom is such a
fount of ignorance!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

one has to wonder where he comes up with these amazing "facts".
Oh, wait...we know:
https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/MjAxMy05MWEyM2Q2ZmExZTFmZmMx/?tagSlug=thinking-of-you

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars
>melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact.
>There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT

>appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion...

I checked for photos using Google Image search and found nothing on
either road. Tom, you have a smartphone with a camera. Take some
photos of these burned and melted cars. Post them some public site
(e.g. Flickr) and I might begin to believe your rubbish:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=burned+melted+Tesla+%22Redwood+Road%22&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=burned+melted+Tesla+%22Dublin+Canyon+Rd%22&tbm=isch>
(The quote marks limit the search to only Redwood Road and Dublin
Canyon Rd.) If you can't provide photos, provide the Lat-Long
locations and I might be able to find it with Google Earth. Otherwise,
you're lying.

>which is why Elon opened his own battery factory in
>Nevada so he could have tighter control over battery QC.
>Most of the EV's in the world do not use his batteries.

Wrong. Panasonic owns a large part of the factory. Tesla vehicles
use batteries that are made in the factory:

"Tesla plans to spend $3.6 billion more on battery and truck
manufacturing in Nevada"
<https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/24/tesla-plans-to-spend-3point6-billion-more-on-manufacturing-in-nevada.html>
"It primarily manufactures and supplies Tesla’s Fremont, California,
vehicle assembly plant with high-voltage battery packs."

"Panasonic to boost EV battery output at Tesla's Gigafactory Nevada"
<https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-boost-EV-battery-output-at-Tesla-s-Gigafactory-Nevada>
"Annual production capacity at the facility is estimated to increase
about 10% from the current 38 gigawatt-hours to 39 GWh, enough for
500,000 to 700,000 Tesla Model 3s."
"Tesla's appetite for more batteries is partly the result of new U.S.
tax credits that encourage EV and battery production in the U.S."
"As Gigafactory Nevada is partly owned by Tesla, Panasonic cannot
supply other customers from the facility."

>Elon, though a responsible person is certainly not going to
>tell you the negatives of EV's.

Actually, he's been amazingly transparent and honest about problems
when they happen.

Score: 3 claims. 1 possibly wrong, 1 wrong, and 1 that I'm too lazy
to verify.

[AMuzi]

I couldn't find one either.

in 2021, flaming Ferraris were not yet electric:

https://patch.com/california/castrovalley/ferrari-crashes-burns-redwood-road-chp

[Radey Shouman]

I must have missed something. The lightest (er, least massive) EV I see
on the chart is 1200 kg, or 2650 lb.


> Thanks, Mr. M.
>
> pH

--

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 15:40:41 -0400, Radey Shouman
<sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

>>> Handy chart here:
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>>>
>>
>> Wow! That's a nifty link....there *are* electrics lighter than the good ol'
>> Morris...and quite a few to choose from, actually.

>I must have missed something. The lightest (er, least massive) EV I see
>on the chart is 1200 kg, or 2650 lb.

Argh. My mistake. The chart did not include units so I mistakenly
assumed lbs instead of kg.

I'll go back and fix my postings. Very embarassing.

[Roger Meriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 15:40:41 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Handy chart here:
>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wow! That's a nifty link....there *are* electrics lighter than the good ol'
>>> Morris...and quite a few to choose from, actually.
>
>> I must have missed something. The lightest (er, least massive) EV I see
>> on the chart is 1200 kg, or 2650 lb.
>
> Argh. My mistake. The chart did not include units so I mistakenly
> assumed lbs instead of kg.
>
> I'll go back and fix my postings. Very embarassing.
>

Ha easy done! This said does show that while heavier it’s not massively so
ie all modern cars have got bigger and heavier, I have a 20 year old Volvo
V70 it’s replacement the V90 is some 500kg heavier!

Which is a touch lighter than the Tesla’s which are broadly the same size.

So yes EV are heavier though some of that will be new cars getting bigger
and heavier and some being batteries but the EV bit doesn’t seem to be that
much.

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 09:13:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Jul 2023 08:46:21 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>(chomp)

>>Handy chart here:
>>https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>

>Thanks. Back to Tom's original claim:
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QM7CD5zO3hc/m/oqiQC1EuAAAJ>

>"A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are
>more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs. The
>battery pack and puncture guard alone of the Tesla is 2,500 lbs."
>

>Looking at the chart, there is only one EV on the chart that weights
>over 2,900 lbs, but it's not made by Tesla. The heaviest Tesla on the
>list is the "Tesla Model S Perf Raven" at 2,360 lbs. Therefore,
>there's no need for Tom to disclose the Tesla model upon which he
>based his claim because it doesn't exist.

My mistake. I assumed that the chart was in lbs instead of kg. I
just noticed the legend on the right of the chart. Argh.

The Tesla Model S Perf Ravan, at 2,360 kg or 5,203 lbs is the heaviest
Tesla model on the chart. A more likely comparison would be to the
1992 Model 3 SR+, the lightest Tesla on the list, weighing 1,720 kg or
3,792 lbs. The current Tesla Model 3 vehicles are slightly heavier at
3,862 - 4,048 lbs (1,751 - 1,836 kgs).

>Score: 1 claim, totally wrong.

I think I see now why I mixed up the units. Tom's original claim
that:

"A Toyota Corolla weighs 2,900 lbs and a Kia Forte, both of which are
more or less equal to the, Tesla, has a curb weight of 2,900 lbs."

used 2,900 lbs when it should have been 2,900 kg. I just blindly
followed his lead.

Even with the units correction, Tom is still. 3,792 lbs (for the
lightest Tesla and ignoring the Roadster) is still nowhere near Tom's
figure of 2,900 lbs for an unspecified model Tesla.

My apologies for the muddle.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 20:11:14 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 15:40:41 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Handy chart here:
>>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow! That's a nifty link....there *are* electrics lighter than the good ol'
>>>> Morris...and quite a few to choose from, actually.
>>
>>> I must have missed something. The lightest (er, least massive) EV I see
>>> on the chart is 1200 kg, or 2650 lb.
>>
>> Argh. My mistake. The chart did not include units so I mistakenly
>> assumed lbs instead of kg.
>>
>> I'll go back and fix my postings. Very embarassing.

>Ha easy done! This said does show that while heavier it’s not massively so
>ie all modern cars have got bigger and heavier, I have a 20 year old Volvo
>V70 it’s replacement the V90 is some 500kg heavier!

I fixed it. See:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QM7CD5zO3hc/m/N2vLPVZ9AQAJ>
I'm feeling generous today. Tom and I each get half the blame. Tom
used the wrong units and I followed his lead.

>Which is a touch lighter than the Tesla’s which are broadly the same size.

True for the sedans. Less true if you include the Roadster and
Cybertruck. It's difficult to compare ICE and EV cars.

>So yes EV are heavier though some of that will be new cars getting bigger
>and heavier and some being batteries but the EV bit doesn’t seem to be that
>much.

If you want small and light, there are Mini EV's from China.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=mini+ev+china&tbm=isch>
You don't drive these cars. You wear them.
They are cheap, small, cheap, light and most important, are cheap.
Which would you prefer? One $35,000 Tesla or eight Mini EVs for the
same amount? Something like this:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV>
Curb weight is 665 kg (1,466 lb). That should be easy on the roads
and keep any road damage taxes low.
<https://www.autoblog.com/2020/09/26/gm-china-electric-micro-car-wuling-mini-ev/>
About $6,000 US.

[Tom Kunich]

I can't out why no one bothers to look up the complaints about EV's? Volkswagon says that the demand for EV's has peaked out. Owners of Tesla's complain of very cheap interiors and batteries that lose 20% of their range within the first couple of months. Tesla says that this is normal and won't replace the batteries saying the new one's would do the same thing. Owners also complain that the ONLY way you can detect this reduced range is by driving it until the low battery light comes on because full charges STILL report the expected full range. Tesla says "too bad" because they tell you when you need to recharge. Most of the electric car companies are buying their batteries from Tesla's so they act the same way. Meanwhile Krygowski wants to argue that you measure the weight difference in mass instead of weight. I guess he measures the weight of his new POS electric car in mass rather than weight. Here is California where we should have the cheapest electricity rates anywhere we car getting constant commercials to turn all of our lights off and sit in the dark or face power outages while shutting DOWN the Nuclear power station and removing dams because they interfere with fish migrations. In the meantime they are telling people that they just expanded the local Altimont Pass Wind Farm.

Well they COULDN'T expand it because the only working parts of that farm is along the ridge lines and all of the new one's are below the peaks and do not work most of the time.

The long and the short of it is that electric vehicles are already obsolete. A 7 year old hybrid needs its batteries replaced and a 7-10 year old EV the same. The batteries for them cost more than replacing them with a new vehicle. (here's where Liebermann who owns an old piece of junk pickup tells us all about how great EV's are and Frank tells us that although he hasn't been more than 40 miles from his home that EV batteries do not lose capacity)

As for saving on CO2 emissions, building the batteries, charging them with electricity made far away and sent via wires to where the chargers are and the simple fact that only 4% of "green energy" is on the power grid means that EV's in fact produce MORE CO2 than ICE cars. Elon Musk is not going to tell you this because that would be sticking a knife into the backs of his share holders. He is honest but he is not stupid.

[Roger Meriman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 20:11:14 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 04 Jul 2023 15:40:41 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Handy chart here:
>>>>>> https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow! That's a nifty link....there *are* electrics lighter than the good ol'
>>>>> Morris...and quite a few to choose from, actually.
>>>
>>>> I must have missed something. The lightest (er, least massive) EV I see
>>>> on the chart is 1200 kg, or 2650 lb.
>>>
>>> Argh. My mistake. The chart did not include units so I mistakenly
>>> assumed lbs instead of kg.
>>>
>>> I'll go back and fix my postings. Very embarassing.
>
>> Ha easy done! This said does show that while heavier it’s not massively so
>> ie all modern cars have got bigger and heavier, I have a 20 year old Volvo
>> V70 it’s replacement the V90 is some 500kg heavier!
>
> I fixed it. See:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QM7CD5zO3hc/m/N2vLPVZ9AQAJ>
> I'm feeling generous today. Tom and I each get half the blame. Tom
> used the wrong units and I followed his lead.

Not sure he would be!

>
>> Which is a touch lighter than the Tesla’s which are broadly the same size.
>
> True for the sedans. Less true if you include the Roadster and
> Cybertruck. It's difficult to compare ICE and EV cars.

Well indeed.

>
>> So yes EV are heavier though some of that will be new cars getting bigger
>> and heavier and some being batteries but the EV bit doesn’t seem to be that
>> much.
>
> If you want small and light, there are Mini EV's from China.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=mini+ev+china&tbm=isch>
> You don't drive these cars. You wear them.
> They are cheap, small, cheap, light and most important, are cheap.
> Which would you prefer? One $35,000 Tesla or eight Mini EVs for the
> same amount? Something like this:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV>
> Curb weight is 665 kg (1,466 lb). That should be easy on the roads
> and keep any road damage taxes low.
> <https://www.autoblog.com/2020/09/26/gm-china-electric-micro-car-wuling-mini-ev/>
> About $6,000 US.
>
>
>

Those cars and the even smaller stuff sort of end up being cars that can
only be used for short urban stuff, which personally I don’t see the point
of I have a bus or train 5mins away or my bike. Car even a EV isn’t useful
for that sort of journey for most part.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Originally I stated that the weights of those EV's were kgs because it said that was the units. If I made a mistake after that it was a typo.
The weights of a LIKE vehicle to a Tesla are far below those of a car composed largely of batteries and a container to protect those batteries from damage which would cause an inextinguishable fire.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I can't out why no one bothers to look up the complaints about EV's?

Why should I when you don't lookup anything?

>Volkswagon says that the demand for EV's has peaked out.

Here's the story. That's not quite what VW just announced:

"Volkswagen shares recover after EV production cut reports"
<https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-shares-recover-after-ev-production-cut-reports-2023-06-28/>
"Morgan Stanley said it expects a slowdown in European demand for EVs
after cuts to subsidies and that other traditional car manufacturers
will slow down or defer their announced EV plans by many quarters or
even years."

>Owners of Tesla's complain of very cheap interiors

If Tesla gave owners a luxury interior, and charged them a premium
price, the owners would complain about the overpriced interior.
Upgrades are always easier than downgrades. It's a no win situation
and I think Telsa overshot the mark with the high price:

"Tesla Finally Gets The Luxury Interior It Deserves, But It Will Cost
You $29,995"
<https://johnchow.com/tesla-finally-gets-the-luxury-interior-it-deserves-but-it-will-cost-your-29995/>

Maybe more later. I'm busy tonite.

[Roger Meriman]

Doesn’t seem that much, compare cars with ICE and EV versions and the
difference is 200kg ie about a extra two passengers, which also what the
Electric restoration mod folks tend to claim.

Ie heavier but dramatically so.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 4, 2023 at 5:52:16 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Owners of Tesla's complain of very cheap interiors

Which has nothing to do with how long the batteries last or the fact that you claimed there is 2" thick aluminum plate under the battery.

> and batteries that lose 20% of their range within the first couple of months. Tesla says that this is normal and won't replace the batteries saying the new one's would do the same thing.

No matter how may times you repeat this lie, it will never become true.

> Owners also complain that the ONLY way you can detect this reduced range is by driving it until the low battery light comes on because full charges STILL report the expected full range.

Sorry sparky, that ain't how it works. The driver will notice the projected mileage decreasing at a faster rate as the battery becomes weaker. If you have a source that claims the 'remaining range' doesn't change, please list it.

> Most of the electric car companies are buying their batteries from Tesla's

Nope:
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40991227/electric-car-battery-companies/
"CATL, LG Energy Solution, BYD, and Panasonic make up more than 70 percent of the global market share of automotive battery sales in the first six months of 2022, with a total of 143.6 gigawatt hours worth of batteries sold. The remaining six companies that make up the top 10 global automotive battery sellers in the first half of 2021 (SK Innovation, Samsung SDI, CALB, Guoxuan, Sunwoda, and Svolt), account for 21.2 percent of the global market. Meanwhile, all other battery manufacturers account for just 8.2 percent of the global market."

Tesla buys the majority of their batteries from LG:
"Credit [Tesla] for much of LG Energy Solution's growth, as booming sales of the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y in Europe and China helped the South Korean company move its batteries into Tesla buyers' driveways and garages."

> The long and the short of it is that electric vehicles are already obsolete. A 7 year old hybrid needs its batteries replaced and a 7-10 year old EV the same.

Nope:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-do-hybrid-batteries-last
" all manufacturers of hybrid vehicles in the US domestic market are legally required to warrant high-voltage hybrid battery packs for at least eight years or 100,000 miles of use. However, ten-year warranty periods of ten years or 150,000 miles of service are now the norm on some Japanese-made hybrids"

Let's consider this:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2022/05/24/average-american-car-12-years-old/9907901002/
The average age of a car in the US is 12 years

So the average age of a vehicle in the US is two years longer than the warenty period (required by law in California). I'm not see how this is a problem.

> The batteries for them cost more than replacing them with a new vehicle.

Nope: Try $6K
https://mechanicbase.com/electric-vehicles/toyota-prius-battery-replacement-cost/
"On average, you may spend between $2,000 and $4,500 to replace the high voltage battery in your Toyota Prius. Even if you choose a used Prius battery, you could spend $1,500, plus the labor to have it installed. "

Better yet, try $3600
"https://exclusivelyhybrid.com/toyota-prius-battery-replacement/#Toyota_Prius_Battery_Replacement"
If we’re talking dealership prices, your new Toyota Prius hybrid battery will cost you at least $3,600 (including installation, plus sales tax).

> As for saving on CO2 emissions, building the batteries, charging them with electricity made far away and sent via wires to where the chargers are and the simple fact that only 4% of "green energy" is on the power grid means that EV's in fact produce MORE CO2 than ICE cars.

And again, nope:
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/what-is-the-carbon-footprint-of-electric-vehicles
"Most studies conclude that while the production of electric cars has a significantly larger carbon footprint than building gasoline-powered cars, EVs have a much smaller impact as they're driven. At some point in its life, the total carbon footprint of an EV becomes smaller than that of an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle. "

> Elon Musk is not going to tell you this because that would be sticking a knife into the backs of his share holders. He is honest but he is not stupid.

lol...so 'elon isn't going to tell people EV's produce more CO2' followed by 'elon is honest'.....good to see what passes for honesty in your world.

[Tom Kunich]

I will assume you meant "not dramatically so". But you avoid the entire reason for EV's was that they DO NOT reduce CO2 emissions but rather increase them. I am perfectly fine with people in heavily urban areas using EV's since at the moment, electricity is cheaper than gasoline or diesel, but that is NOT going to last because the ONLY way that EV's survive is via subsidies. They are not even paying road taxes as ICE engines are and how long do you suppose that is going to last?

In general, as goes the US, so goes the world. And Biden who really isn't the leader of the Democrats is so despised that there is absolutely no way that he stands the slightest chance of being reelected and both Trump and Robert Kennedy Jr are main stream realists that intend prosecuting the crooks presently in power. Though of opposite parties they agree on that.

With oil drilling again allowed, and subsidies on EV's removed what do you think is going to happen?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 5, 2023 at 12:28:29 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> But you avoid the entire reason for EV's was that they DO NOT reduce CO2 emissions but rather increase them.

And again, nope:
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/what-is-the-carbon-footprint-of-electric-vehicles
"Most studies conclude that while the production of electric cars has a significantly larger carbon footprint than building gasoline-powered cars, EVs have a much smaller impact as they're driven. At some point in its life, the total carbon footprint of an EV becomes smaller than that of an equivalent gasoline-powered vehicle. "

> In general, as goes the US, so goes the world. And Biden who really isn't the leader of the Democrats

He isn't?

> is so despised that there is absolutely no way that he stands the slightest chance of being reelected

I seem to remember you predicting massive republican victories with every election.

> and both Trump and Robert Kennedy Jr are main stream realists

lol...trump and RFKjr are "mainstream realists".......HAH!!!

> that intend prosecuting the crooks presently in power. Though of opposite parties they agree on that.

Yeah, we remember trumps promises in 2016 to throw all the crooks in jail....tell us, how did that work out again?

>
> With oil drilling again allowed

Is that so?
https://news.yahoo.com/biden-granted-more-oil-and-gas-drilling-permits-than-trump-in-his-first-2-years-in-office-190528616.html

> and subsidies on EV's removed

nope:
https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/605081/ev-tax-credit-inflation-reduction-act-2022-changes
"For EVs placed into service in 2023, the up to $7,500 EV tax credit is extended for 10 years — until December 2032."

> what do you think is going to happen?

Pigs will fly?

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 04.07.2023 um 18:47 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars
>> melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact.
>> There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT
>> appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion...
>
> I checked for photos using Google Image search and found nothing on
> either road.

Once you have those photos, please compare to these photos where
probably a hot catalytic converter burned down a few cars parked in a
field ;-)

This is *definitely* spontaneous combustion.

<https://www.rnz.de/region/regionalticker/polizeiberichte_artikel,-Bad-Wimpfen-Nach-Autobrand-weiter-unklar-wer-Schaden-zahlt-plus-FotogalerieVideo-_arid,1143620.html>

[Rolf Mantel]

Sounds like the Citroen 2CV produced from 1947 till 1989 (my parents
always had one from 1968 till the end; the last one from 1989 is now
'driven as a classic car' by my nephew).

[Tom Kunich]

Liebermann is going to find traces of fires that occurred several years ago to electric cars. Since by now they are simply black marks on black asphalt this tells you what is occurring with his mental processes.

[Roger Meriman]

Get lots of fires with car’s generally or rather in all cases you have a
large amount of stored energy.

One of my friends has had two cars catch on fire within 5 years!

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 07:40:02 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm still waiting for the Lat-Long of your alleged burned out EV's on
Redwood Rd and Dublin Canyon Rd so that I can possibly find some
photos. You supposedly ride on those roads regularly, so getting the
Lat-Long from your Garmin 830 should be a trivial exercise. However,
I would prefer photographs taken with your Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW
SM-A516V Android smartphone. If you suddenly experience unusual and
fatal problems operating your smartphone or Garmin 830, a description
of the locations might be sufficient to locate the EV's with Google
Earth or other satellite imagery.

If you have time to look around, perhaps you can identify the EV's
makers and models. Maybe you can find some titanium parts in the burn
pile.

No rush. Take you time. I'll remind you as needed.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 13:55:21 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

That was a fairly minimalist vehicle, especially the seats:
<https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/citron-2cv-picnic-seats>
However, it wasn't an EV.

Locally, we had the Smart EV:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_electric_drive>
yet another minimalist EV. Made by Daimler AG.
One does not drive this EV. One wears it.

There were various versions, including a larger one that offers room
for a passenger:
<https://www.cars.com/research/smart-fortwo_electric_drive/>
The problem was the price. $23,800 to $29,100 in 2018.

The main advantage of today's Chinese Mini EV's is the comparatively
low price.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

A few years ago my boss bought a a used smart car. One day shortly after he bought it he called to say he would be late because the smart car died (still under warranty since he bought it from a mercedes dealership). Later that day after he made it in, we were in a meeting and he got a call from the dealership. He listened to the mechanic for a moment then muted the phone, looked at us and said "He just told me they think it's an electrical problem. YA THINK?"

[Tom Kunich]

I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire except in very major crashes. Going over Redwood Rd on Tuesday there was the burn marks on the center of the road from an EV that self combusted, I assume from before Tesla put that heavy battery guard on the cars and then going over Dublin Grade today there was the other mark still there - plastic melted into the surface which is a great deal more wear resistant than the asphalt into which it is melted. I agree with you about the large amount of stored energy but with ICE cars there's 100 years practice with safe storage. It is very unfortunate that rather than intelligent engineering, it remains in the hands of technicians to produce safe and reliable answers but that is the way it is.

While at the coffee shop today I started eaves-dropping on some guy who was discussing things with what appeared to be his father who remained entirely silent. The kid who himself was middle aged started with the fact that he had installed 5 kw of solar panels on his roof. He then discovered that they were worthless ($5,000 mind you) because there wasn't any power usage during the day and an inverter, storage battery and enough panels to actually make a dent in power usage during the summer would have been another several tens of thousands of dollars. I believed that I said the same thing here only to have Liebermann declare it to be a lie.

He also reminded me with his discussion that ALL of the vehicles used in large warehouses have been electric almost from the beginning. With that I did recall that fork lifts and small trains and trucks in warehouses were all electric.

Then he started talking about the electric car he had bought. I missed what brand since there was a woman at the table next to mine laughing into her cell phone. But I clearly heard him said that he had received a $12,000 REBATE from the government. Personally I cannot see that being much of a reason to buy an EV that probably runs $50,000 to $60,000 and the high mileage version traveling 30 miles more than the normal version. He made some deleterious comment about the Self-Driving feature so I couldn't say that it was a Tesla or another EV that they're making about 10 miles away from the Tesla plant. He said that you have to keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times.

[AMuzi]

On 7/6/2023 4:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 11:18:18 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 4:51:29 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 04.07.2023 um 18:47 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars
>>>>>> melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact.
>>>>>> There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT
>>>>>> appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion...
>>>>>
>>>>> I checked for photos using Google Image search and found nothing on
>>>>> either road.
>>>> Once you have those photos, please compare to these photos where
>>>> probably a hot catalytic converter burned down a few cars parked in a
>>>> field ;-)
>>>>
>>>> This is *definitely* spontaneous combustion.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.rnz.de/region/regionalticker/polizeiberichte_artikel,-Bad-Wimpfen-Nach-Autobrand-weiter-unklar-wer-Schaden-zahlt-plus-FotogalerieVideo-_arid,1143620.html>
>>>
>>> Liebermann is going to find traces of fires that occurred several years
>>> ago to electric cars. Since by now they are simply black marks on black
>>> asphalt this tells you what is occurring with his mental processes.
>>>

>> Get lots of fires with car’s generally or rather in all cases you have a

>> large amount of stored energy.
>>
>> One of my friends has had two cars catch on fire within 5 years!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire except in very major crashes. Going over Redwood Rd on Tuesday there was the burn marks on the center of the road from an EV that self combusted, I assume from before Tesla put that heavy battery guard on the cars and then going over Dublin Grade today there was the other mark still there - plastic melted into the surface which is a great deal more wear resistant than the asphalt into which it is melted. I agree with you about the large amount of stored energy but with ICE cars there's 100 years practice with safe storage. It is very unfortunate that rather than intelligent engineering, it remains in the hands of technicians to produce safe and reliable answers but that is the way it is.
>
> While at the coffee shop today I started eaves-dropping on some guy who was discussing things with what appeared to be his father who remained entirely silent. The kid who himself was middle aged started with the fact that he had installed 5 kw of solar panels on his roof. He then discovered that they were worthless ($5,000 mind you) because there wasn't any power usage during the day and an inverter, storage battery and enough panels to actually make a dent in power usage during the summer would have been another several tens of thousands of dollars. I believed that I said the same thing here only to have Liebermann declare it to be a lie.
>
> He also reminded me with his discussion that ALL of the vehicles used in large warehouses have been electric almost from the beginning. With that I did recall that fork lifts and small trains and trucks in warehouses were all electric.
>
> Then he started talking about the electric car he had bought. I missed what brand since there was a woman at the table next to mine laughing into her cell phone. But I clearly heard him said that he had received a $12,000 REBATE from the government. Personally I cannot see that being much of a reason to buy an EV that probably runs $50,000 to $60,000 and the high mileage version traveling 30 miles more than the normal version. He made some deleterious comment about the Self-Driving feature so I couldn't say that it was a Tesla or another EV that they're making about 10 miles away from the Tesla plant. He said that you have to keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times.



> "I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire"

Lucky you. Gasoline fires are as serious as a heart attack.
I hope you're never near one.

My cousin Tommy Rosato bought a new Renault Dauphine

http://davidsclassiccars.com/renault/80728-1964-renault-dauphine.html

just before HS graduation (1964). It went up in flames at
the stop sign a block from his house. He was lucky to escape
uninjured. One of many similar stories but that one had a
happy ending.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm not at all sure that was all that happy. I had the full series of MG's and Triumphs and never a problem. Perhaps the French don't learn their lesson's well. I have only seen ONE ICE fire and it was hit by a double semi because the asshole car driver was passing on the right and was completely out of view of the Truck Driver. I can't even tell you how many wrecks I've seen without any fires even when the American cars were complete totals.

[John B.]

On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 07:40:02 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Traces? Black marks?

But Tommy you stated, " cars melted into the surface" and now the
melted cars have become black marks?


You are lying again aren't you Tommy.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 16:52:33 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/6/2023 4:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 11:18:18 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 4:51:29 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>> Am 04.07.2023 um 18:47 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars
>>>>>>> melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact.
>>>>>>> There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT
>>>>>>> appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I checked for photos using Google Image search and found nothing on
>>>>>> either road.
>>>>> Once you have those photos, please compare to these photos where
>>>>> probably a hot catalytic converter burned down a few cars parked in a
>>>>> field ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> This is *definitely* spontaneous combustion.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.rnz.de/region/regionalticker/polizeiberichte_artikel,-Bad-Wimpfen-Nach-Autobrand-weiter-unklar-wer-Schaden-zahlt-plus-FotogalerieVideo-_arid,1143620.html>
>>>>
>>>> Liebermann is going to find traces of fires that occurred several years
>>>> ago to electric cars. Since by now they are simply black marks on black
>>>> asphalt this tells you what is occurring with his mental processes.
>>>>

>>> Get lots of fires with car’s generally or rather in all cases you have a

>>> large amount of stored energy.
>>>
>>> One of my friends has had two cars catch on fire within 5 years!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire except in very major crashes. Going over Redwood Rd on Tuesday there was the burn marks on the center of the road from an EV that self combusted, I assume from before Tesla put that heavy battery guard on the cars and then going over Dublin Grade today there was the other mark still there - plastic melted into the surface which is a great deal more wear resistant than the asphalt into which it is melted. I agree with you about the large amount of stored energy but with ICE cars there's 100 years practice with safe storage. It is very unfortunate that rather than intelligent engineering, it remains in the hands of technicians to produce safe and reliable answers but that is the way it is.
>>
>> While at the coffee shop today I started eaves-dropping on some guy who was discussing things with what appeared to be his father who remained entirely silent. The kid who himself was middle aged started with the fact that he had installed 5 kw of solar panels on his roof. He then discovered that they were worthless ($5,000 mind you) because there wasn't any power usage during the day and an inverter, storage battery and enough panels to actually make a dent in power usage during the summer would have been another several tens of thousands of dollars. I believed that I said the same thing here only to have Liebermann declare it to be a lie.
>>
>> He also reminded me with his discussion that ALL of the vehicles used in large warehouses have been electric almost from the beginning. With that I did recall that fork lifts and small trains and trucks in warehouses were all electric.
>>
>> Then he started talking about the electric car he had bought. I missed what brand since there was a woman at the table next to mine laughing into her cell phone. But I clearly heard him said that he had received a $12,000 REBATE from the government. Personally I cannot see that being much of a reason to buy an EV that probably runs $50,000 to $60,000 and the high mileage version traveling 30 miles more than the normal version. He made some deleterious comment about the Self-Driving feature so I couldn't say that it was a Tesla or another EV that they're making about 10 miles away from the Tesla plant. He said that you have to keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times.
>
>
>
>> "I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire"
>
>Lucky you. Gasoline fires are as serious as a heart attack.
>I hope you're never near one.
>
>My cousin Tommy Rosato bought a new Renault Dauphine
>
>http://davidsclassiccars.com/renault/80728-1964-renault-dauphine.html
>
>just before HS graduation (1964). It went up in flames at
>the stop sign a block from his house. He was lucky to escape
>uninjured. One of many similar stories but that one had a
>happy ending.

I bought one of those French built cars and after driving it for a few
months reckoned it must be the worst automobile in the world and
"traded" it for a Ford Falcon :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 7/6/2023 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 16:52:33 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/6/2023 4:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 11:18:18 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 4:51:29 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>> Am 04.07.2023 um 18:47 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars
>>>>>>>> melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact.
>>>>>>>> There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT
>>>>>>>> appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I checked for photos using Google Image search and found nothing on
>>>>>>> either road.
>>>>>> Once you have those photos, please compare to these photos where
>>>>>> probably a hot catalytic converter burned down a few cars parked in a
>>>>>> field ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is *definitely* spontaneous combustion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.rnz.de/region/regionalticker/polizeiberichte_artikel,-Bad-Wimpfen-Nach-Autobrand-weiter-unklar-wer-Schaden-zahlt-plus-FotogalerieVideo-_arid,1143620.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> Liebermann is going to find traces of fires that occurred several years
>>>>> ago to electric cars. Since by now they are simply black marks on black
>>>>> asphalt this tells you what is occurring with his mental processes.
>>>>>

>>>> Get lots of fires with car’s generally or rather in all cases you have a

>>>> large amount of stored energy.
>>>>
>>>> One of my friends has had two cars catch on fire within 5 years!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire except in very major crashes. Going over Redwood Rd on Tuesday there was the burn marks on the center of the road from an EV that self combusted, I assume from before Tesla put that heavy battery guard on the cars and then going over Dublin Grade today there was the other mark still there - plastic melted into the surface which is a great deal more wear resistant than the asphalt into which it is melted. I agree with you about the large amount of stored energy but with ICE cars there's 100 years practice with safe storage. It is very unfortunate that rather than intelligent engineering, it remains in the hands of technicians to produce safe and reliable answers but that is the way it is.
>>>
>>> While at the coffee shop today I started eaves-dropping on some guy who was discussing things with what appeared to be his father who remained entirely silent. The kid who himself was middle aged started with the fact that he had installed 5 kw of solar panels on his roof. He then discovered that they were worthless ($5,000 mind you) because there wasn't any power usage during the day and an inverter, storage battery and enough panels to actually make a dent in power usage during the summer would have been another several tens of thousands of dollars. I believed that I said the same thing here only to have Liebermann declare it to be a lie.
>>>
>>> He also reminded me with his discussion that ALL of the vehicles used in large warehouses have been electric almost from the beginning. With that I did recall that fork lifts and small trains and trucks in warehouses were all electric.
>>>
>>> Then he started talking about the electric car he had bought. I missed what brand since there was a woman at the table next to mine laughing into her cell phone. But I clearly heard him said that he had received a $12,000 REBATE from the government. Personally I cannot see that being much of a reason to buy an EV that probably runs $50,000 to $60,000 and the high mileage version traveling 30 miles more than the normal version. He made some deleterious comment about the Self-Driving feature so I couldn't say that it was a Tesla or another EV that they're making about 10 miles away from the Tesla plant. He said that you have to keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times.
>>
>>
>>
>>> "I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire"
>>
>> Lucky you. Gasoline fires are as serious as a heart attack.
>> I hope you're never near one.
>>
>> My cousin Tommy Rosato bought a new Renault Dauphine
>>
>> http://davidsclassiccars.com/renault/80728-1964-renault-dauphine.html
>>
>> just before HS graduation (1964). It went up in flames at
>> the stop sign a block from his house. He was lucky to escape
>> uninjured. One of many similar stories but that one had a
>> happy ending.
>
>
> I bought one of those French built cars and after driving it for a few
> months reckoned it must be the worst automobile in the world and
> "traded" it for a Ford Falcon :-(
>

I Lived in a 1962 Falcon with a girl from Michigan for a
couple of months. Nat a bad car.

[Tom Kunich]

I had a Ford Falcon Ranchero and I should have kept it. But a new Mustang beckoned. Then a Camaro, Then I can't remember until I came to and have been driving Ford Tauruses ever since. The first one was smashed from some ass speeding around the corner and hitting it parked. The second got 34 mpg on the freeway and my latest Taurus X hasn't enough miles on it to know what the mileage is. But I would guess 25 on the open road. 13 locally. But just driving 3 miles on the freeway kicks it up to 14

[Radey Shouman]

Anything that can power a massive motor vehicle at the level to which we
have become accustomed, whether chemical, electrical, or magic, is going
to have enough energy to be quite dangerous. I can say from experience
that gasoline fires are nothing to sneer at.

[John B.]

On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 19:15:45 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 7/6/2023 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 16:52:33 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/6/2023 4:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 11:18:18 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>> On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 4:51:29 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 04.07.2023 um 18:47 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 07:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> EV fires are not a joke and on Redwood Rd. there are cars
>>>>>>>>> melted into the surface that are EV's after the fact.
>>>>>>>>> There is also one on Dublin Canyon Rd. These do NOT
>>>>>>>>> appear to have been wrecks but spontaneous combustion...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I checked for photos using Google Image search and found nothing on
>>>>>>>> either road.
>>>>>>> Once you have those photos, please compare to these photos where
>>>>>>> probably a hot catalytic converter burned down a few cars parked in a
>>>>>>> field ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is *definitely* spontaneous combustion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.rnz.de/region/regionalticker/polizeiberichte_artikel,-Bad-Wimpfen-Nach-Autobrand-weiter-unklar-wer-Schaden-zahlt-plus-FotogalerieVideo-_arid,1143620.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liebermann is going to find traces of fires that occurred several years
>>>>>> ago to electric cars. Since by now they are simply black marks on black
>>>>>> asphalt this tells you what is occurring with his mental processes.
>>>>>>

>>>>> Get lots of fires with car’s generally or rather in all cases you have a

>>>>> large amount of stored energy.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of my friends has had two cars catch on fire within 5 years!
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire except in very major crashes. Going over Redwood Rd on Tuesday there was the burn marks on the center of the road from an EV that self combusted, I assume from before Tesla put that heavy battery guard on the cars and then going over Dublin Grade today there was the other mark still there - plastic melted into the surface which is a great deal more wear resistant than the asphalt into which it is melted. I agree with you about the large amount of stored energy but with ICE cars there's 100 years practice with safe storage. It is very unfortunate that rather than intelligent engineering, it remains in the hands of technicians to produce safe and reliable answers but that is the way it is.
>>>>
>>>> While at the coffee shop today I started eaves-dropping on some guy who was discussing things with what appeared to be his father who remained entirely silent. The kid who himself was middle aged started with the fact that he had installed 5 kw of solar panels on his roof. He then discovered that they were worthless ($5,000 mind you) because there wasn't any power usage during the day and an inverter, storage battery and enough panels to actually make a dent in power usage during the summer would have been another several tens of thousands of dollars. I believed that I said the same thing here only to have Liebermann declare it to be a lie.
>>>>
>>>> He also reminded me with his discussion that ALL of the vehicles used in large warehouses have been electric almost from the beginning. With that I did recall that fork lifts and small trains and trucks in warehouses were all electric.
>>>>
>>>> Then he started talking about the electric car he had bought. I missed what brand since there was a woman at the table next to mine laughing into her cell phone. But I clearly heard him said that he had received a $12,000 REBATE from the government. Personally I cannot see that being much of a reason to buy an EV that probably runs $50,000 to $60,000 and the high mileage version traveling 30 miles more than the normal version. He made some deleterious comment about the Self-Driving feature so I couldn't say that it was a Tesla or another EV that they're making about 10 miles away from the Tesla plant. He said that you have to keep both hands on the steering wheel at all times.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> "I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire"
>>>
>>> Lucky you. Gasoline fires are as serious as a heart attack.
>>> I hope you're never near one.
>>>
>>> My cousin Tommy Rosato bought a new Renault Dauphine
>>>
>>> http://davidsclassiccars.com/renault/80728-1964-renault-dauphine.html
>>>
>>> just before HS graduation (1964). It went up in flames at
>>> the stop sign a block from his house. He was lucky to escape
>>> uninjured. One of many similar stories but that one had a
>>> happy ending.
>>
>>
>> I bought one of those French built cars and after driving it for a few
>> months reckoned it must be the worst automobile in the world and
>> "traded" it for a Ford Falcon :-(
>>
>
>I Lived in a 1962 Falcon with a girl from Michigan for a
>couple of months. Nat a bad car.

I was in Maine, during the winter, and with the Dauphine there were
two choices (1) defrost the windshield a little bit or (2) defrost
your feet a little bit. But not both at the same time. I was driving
to work about 06:00 on a really frosty morning and passing the Ford
place I see them pushing the "for sale" cars out into the yard, I made
a sharp turn and told the guy, "take this piece of shit and give ,me a
Ford!" Signed the papers and still got to work on time.

I'm sure the Salesman thought I was crazy but then, he'd probably
never had a Dauphine :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 14:29:25 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have VERY rarely seen an ICE auto fire except in very major crashes.

Keep your eyes on the road, not the fires.

"Gas vs. Electric Car Fires [2023 Findings]"
<https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/>

Fuel Type Fires per Total
100K sales Fires
Hybrid 3,474.5 16,051
Gas 1,529.9 199,533
EV 25.1 52

The safest cars are EV's. The worst are hybrids.

Don't drive your EV into salt water. Ocean salt water is very
conductive:
<https://www.eenews.net/articles/why-6-flooded-evs-burst-into-flames-after-hurricane-ian/>
Tesla battery voltages:
Model 3: 350V
Model S: 375V
Model Y: 400V

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I had a Ford Falcon Ranchero and I should have kept it. But a new
>Mustang beckoned. Then a Camaro, Then I can't remember until I
>came to and have been driving Ford Tauruses ever since.

Really? When I look at your house using Google street view, the only
vehicle I've seen parked next to your driveway is a white 2018 Kia
Soul. It also appears in Mar 2021. In order to preserve what is left
of Tom's privacy, I won't post any links or the address.

Hmmm... the April 2011 photo shows a for sale sign pounded onto the
front lawn and partly hidden behind a small tree.

When I was first learning to drive, I borrowed my mothers 1960 Ford
Falcon. Straight 6, 144 CID (2.4 liter) engine, and a 2 speed
automatic transmission. At one point, I threw together a small biz in
the garage, fixing CB radios for one Radio Shack. The problem was
that I had to deliver the repaired radios from West Smog Angeles to
Long Beach. I lost track of how many miles I was putting on the car.
When it burned up most of the oil, the engine froze. My mother bought
a new car, but I was stuck with the dead Falcon. My father's line was
"You want a car? No problem. All you need to do is fix the Falcon".
So, I rebuilt the engine. I made a few mistakes, but when I was done,
it ran. Unfortunately, it overheated because I didn't know to ream
the cylinder ridges (oops). A cousin managed to sell it to someone
who wanted it for parts. At this point, I knew enough about the
Falcon to convince the local Ford dealer to hire me as an electrical
system troubleshooter. I did ok until I was needed to help do an
engine rebuild on another Ford Flacon. That didn't go so well and I
found myself again looking for part time employment.

I then switched from a local city college (Santa Monica City College),
to a 4 year college (San Fernando Valley State College). The problem
was that it was in Northridge, about a 25 mile drive in heavy traffic.
Amazingly, the parents agreed that walking or cycling the distance
(and 1,130 feet (344 m) elevation) was impractical. We emptied what
was left of my bank account and found enough cash to buy a shiny new
1967 Ford Mustang on credit. Straight 6, 200 CID engine, 3 speed
transmission. There was almost no weight on the rear end, so I could
sometimes burn rubber in all 3 gears. Perfect. I think I put about
160,000 miles on it before I gave up and bought a 1972(?)
International Harvester 1210 4x4 pickup with service boxes. Basically
a service truck for doing radio installs in the field.

That was the end of my love affair with Ford products.

[Rolf Mantel]

Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
hurt.

Rolf

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 12:03:31 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I had a Ford Falcon Ranchero and I should have kept it. But a new
> >Mustang beckoned. Then a Camaro, Then I can't remember until I
> >came to and have been driving Ford Tauruses ever since.
> Really? When I look at your house using Google street view, the only
> vehicle I've seen parked next to your driveway is a white 2018 Kia
> Soul. It also appears in Mar 2021. In order to preserve what is left
> of Tom's privacy, I won't post any links or the address.
>
> Hmmm... the April 2011 photo shows a for sale sign pounded onto the
> front lawn and partly hidden behind a small tree.
>
>

As recently as january of last year, tommy admitted to driving a 2007 Taurus, (which he claimed weighed 6000 pounds) in which he claims he netted 38MPG on a trip to arizona.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8lI8HcCbtYQ/m/pyhWv6HSAgAJ

now he claims "my latest Taurus X hasn't enough miles on it to know what the mileage is."

Consider that Ford stopped making the Taurus X in 2009
https://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Taurus_X

Unless tommy got a new_ER_ Taurus X in the last month or so, it's curious he wouldn't know what economy his at least 14 year old car gets.

This of course begs the question:

I thought tommy was suuuuper rich? What's he doing buying a 2009 ford? _if_ he could find one in good shape, they only fetch ~5500 these days.

https://www.kbb.com/ford/taurus-x/

Note also, KBB shows fuel economy of the Taurus X in the 19 range....38 mpg indeed!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 03:25:12 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 12:03:31?AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I had a Ford Falcon Ranchero and I should have kept it. But a new
>> >Mustang beckoned. Then a Camaro, Then I can't remember until I
>> >came to and have been driving Ford Tauruses ever since.
>> Really? When I look at your house using Google street view, the only
>> vehicle I've seen parked next to your driveway is a white 2018 Kia
>> Soul. It also appears in Mar 2021. In order to preserve what is left
>> of Tom's privacy, I won't post any links or the address.

The Kia also appears in the Jan 2018 street view.

>> Hmmm... the April 2011 photo shows a for sale sign pounded onto the
>> front lawn and partly hidden behind a small tree.

>As recently as january of last year, tommy admitted to driving a 2007 Taurus, (which he claimed weighed 6000 pounds) in which he claims he netted 38MPG on a trip to arizona.
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8lI8HcCbtYQ/m/pyhWv6HSAgAJ
>
>now he claims "my latest Taurus X hasn't enough miles on it to know what the mileage is."
>
>Consider that Ford stopped making the Taurus X in 2009
>https://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Taurus_X
>
>Unless tommy got a new_ER_ Taurus X in the last month or so, it's curious he wouldn't know what economy his at least 14 year old car gets.
>
>This of course begs the question:
>
>I thought tommy was suuuuper rich? What's he doing buying a 2009 ford? _if_ he could find one in good shape, they only fetch ~5500 these days.
>
>https://www.kbb.com/ford/taurus-x/
>
>Note also, KBB shows fuel economy of the Taurus X in the 19 range....38 mpg indeed!

Nice analysis. It would seem that Tom doesn't drive a Taurus X.
There's nothing wrong with the Kia Soul which makes me wonder why he
would bother lying it. Since the 2018 Kia appears in the 2018 street
view, it would seem that he bought it new. I can't tell if that means
he is wealthy enough to pay cash, poor enough to buy it on credit, or
something in between. Why anyone would loan Tom money for a car after
he had 4 wrecked cars and a suspended license, is unknown:

April, 2022
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/>
"I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that
I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries."

"...here I am with 12 bikes in the garage."


My favorite anachronism by Tom:

06/16/2021
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/1pQFl5_ZkKY/m/SvCkaTdaAQAJ>
"Windows has had a very difficult time marketing Word because I'm
still using the 1996 version and so is most other people until they
upgrade to Windows 10 and it will not allow that version to work."

There was a Word 95 and a Word 97, but no Word 96.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Word>
As I vaguely recall, Word 95 ran on Windoze 95, 98, 98SE, ME but
nothing later than Windoze 2000. Tom seems to be into retro software
and possibly other forms of software masochism. Why he would lie by
claiming to be running antique software is beyond my limited
imagination.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

>Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
>people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
>Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
>in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
>sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
>mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
>hurt.
>Rolf

You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
bicycle helmets.

No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.

I've been in two roll overs. Once as a passenger in a full size
pickup truck. I was sleeping and wearing a seat belt and shoulder
strap. I ended up upside down. No injuries except for a few bruises.
The driver was also wearing a seat belt, but was injured by the flying
tools and objects in the pickup. Of course, the doors were jammed
shut and had to be kicked open. Everything in the back of the pickup
was thrown across a mountainside. We came back the next day and found
almost everything.

The other roll over was complicated and messy. Another time.

Lesson learned: Seat belts work.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't even know if this will show, but here is the safety of an EV - they burn out and the wrecker hauls the remains off and all that is left on the road is the melted components that are embedded into the pavement https://earth.google.com/web/@37.70178441,-121.99430952,189.60849088a,37.09498581d,35y,64.94161532h,19.09431244t,359.99999998r

[Tom Kunich]

Here is another one I told you about. But I am quite sure that Lie bermann can tell you they don't exist. I see these burns enough to know what they are and I saw them while the CARS or what were left of them were being removed by the wreckers. https://earth.google.com/web/@37.76913233,-122.11472063,255.98282445a,51.50037662d,35y,64.92848178h,19.09211022t,0.00000084r

[Tom Kunich]

Perhaps someone has a picture SO COMMON of a ICE fire that they can show them? Let's remember that ICE cars have been around for a century and were they so dangerous and fires so common you should be able to show literally thousands of marks from them.

[Roger Meriman]

>>> ent https://earth.google.com/web/@37.70178441,-121.99430952,189.60849088a,37.09498581d,35y,64.94161532h,19.09431244t,359.99999998r
>> Here is another one I told you about. But I am quite sure that Lie
>> bermann can tell you they don't exist. I see these burns enough to know
>> what they are and I saw them while the CARS or what were left of them
>> were being removed by the wreckers.
>> https://earth.google.com/web/@37.76913233,-122.11472063,255.98282445a,51.50037662d,35y,64.92848178h,19.09211022t,0.00000084r
>
> Perhaps someone has a picture SO COMMON of a ICE fire that they can show
> them? Let's remember that ICE cars have been around for a century and
> were they so dangerous and fires so common you should be able to show
> literally thousands of marks from them.
>

It’s not common for any cars.

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/are-electric-car-fires-really-that-common/

It’s relatively rare though not unheard of ie can happen it’s less likely
to happen to a EV though fires can be more difficult to stop, though that
might just be due to unfamiliarity.

Seems to suggest within the article, that other electric vehicles seems to
have a higher risk ie only 44% of uk Electric vehicles fires where cars,
which considering the numbers is quite good odds and rather suggest that
the suspicion that the iffy E Scooters and hacked E bikes are as iffy as
suspected and why the tube etc will not carry them!

Roger Merriman