Getting out

[Tom Kunich]

The weather has been cold, somewhat windy and just generally nasty which makes it a real problem getting enough enthusiasm to get out.

But today is Thursday and all of the Thurs are going out on their bikes so I might as well. But short rides have become the name of the game until after spring has sprung.

25 miles always seems so short, even when it has 2,000 feet of climbing on it and I am not going to climb when there might be icy spots. One near miss was one more than I needed.

[Lou Holtman]

Lucky bastard, I have to work. I'm going home in half an hour but it is dark already.

Lou

[AMuzi]

Zero F at dawn here today. It's rideable but not 25 miles worth.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Mark Cleary]

It was5 degrees to when I got up so I race walked 5 miles on the treadmill and then road 29 on the indoor trainer, HR averaged 117 and a pool off sweat as usual on the floor. Well maybe after teaching this evening I will get some of the liquid back in a couple of beers will do. I ride year around but the next spell of 5-10 days is not looking good.
Deacon Mark

[William Crowell]

I am sorry to make you guys jealous (not), but it is going to be about 61 degrees today in the Sierra foothills, and I am going to go for an 11-mile ride that has a fair amount of climbing. I'm really out of shape from not riding during the rains, so I think this will tire me out:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LgckHRRZD7gcP9w3eHbn1WZ2ZyJ-gRbb/view?usp=sharing

[Lou Holtman]

11 mile? No I’m not jealous. Did a nice 75 km ride yesterday in 2C, windchill -2C and in was dry, even the streets.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Some climbing? I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.

Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.

This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window. Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?

[Tom Kunich]

I don't know what the hell the chill factor was today. I was riding hard enough that I was reasonably warm though I would have been better with a wind jacket over the top of the normal jacket. As I said my usual speed was that 25 miles was accomplished at 11.5 mph.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>
> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>
> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window. Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?

You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!

My sympathies.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

In addition to not being able to figure out how to set up something as simple as a bike computer.
Do you think it might have occurred to him to try a different magnet to prove out the sensor?

[AMuzi]

Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg

YMMV.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either. Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity? Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.

[Tom Kunich]

The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch from the detector. The only one I have has a magnet that zip ties onto the end of the cranks arm and because the arm has a recess to lighten it up, it doesn't pass nearly as close. The detector zip ties onto the chain stay but unless you have everything set perfectly on, the slightest rotation on the chain stay such as occurs on bumpy roads causes part of the detector to slide slightly down the tapered chain stay, misalign slightly and miss the passing magnet. I had assumed that since this field is possibly variable that they would either make the detector more sensitive or use a supermagnet. But neither seems to be the case. But those highly experienced electronics engineers know better than I do.

And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to turn the unit off and then restart it.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Life - hack - put a small dab of removable adhesive under the magnet when placing it (e.g.RTV, rubber cement). No more problems with magnet shifting, and still removable.

>
> And neither the 800 or 820 seem to have a display page that gives, cadence, speed and distance. Trying to discover how to perhaps modify the displays, I ended up in some page that was seemingly trying to get me to ride faster than I did last ride. And the only way I could get out of that was to turn the unit off and then restart it.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look.html
Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features"
"Once you’re riding, you’ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can customize all of these screens and data fields however you’d like with the following information: [followed by graphic table]

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't understand anything?

[John B.]

"PM starter motors have such a high failure rate"???

Tommy, I can't remember ever having to replace a starter motor and my
experience with starters dates back to the late 1940's.

So perhaps is you'd just scurry around and find us a tiny bit of proof
that you knew what you were talking about it would make us just So
happy, to know that Tommy boy "got it right" for, perhaps, the first
time in the history of the Internet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

John, can you please continue to show us your ignorance? Starter motors used to be DC electromagnetic until the search for lighter weight to give higher gas mileage started in earnest in the 1990's. I love it when you should your vast knowledge of so many things.

[Ted Heise]

> > Scroll down to "Base Cycling Features" "Once you???re riding,
> > you???ll have a number of data fields that can be displayed at

> > any one point in time. You can set up to 10 data fields per
> > data screen (up from eight), and have up to 3 primary data
> > screens, in addition to map and course based screens. You can

> > customize all of these screens and data fields however you???d

> > like with the following information: [followed by graphic
> > table]
>
> Why do you run your mouth off about everything when you don't
> understand anything?

Tom, I think he was trying to help. The short version is that the
displays on these Garmin devices are highly configurable. I think
The posted link lists the parameters that can be chosen for
display. Here's a link to just that bit of the very long page...

https://media.dcrainmaker.com/images/2010/08/garmin-edge-800-in-depth-first-look-review-48.jpg


Here's a link to the Garmin instructions (for the 820)...

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/edge820/EN-US/GUID-668E2816-63F2-49B6-B67D-E2DBB2CC2B6E.html

It's kind of a convoluted process, but the results are good!

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
> electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>
> YMMV.

There's certainly something to be said for that approach!

When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training motivation,
to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it did that. In fact, one of
my ancient Avocets has a "pace arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below
my average speed. But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.

I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now just for idle
curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go farther down the electronics
rabbit hole.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:32:01 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich

Tommy, as I said earlier I've been around autos and their starter
motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
of the "bendix drive" did happen.

And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.

Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
madly toward the finish line.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>>>
>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>>>

>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...

>
>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>
> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.

:-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
from Lil' Abner
http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
to fall on yourself.

However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)

> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?

I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.

From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
"a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
strength."

From
https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
"Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."

From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
"Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
for properly."

From
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
"A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
indefinitely."

> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.

So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
so terrible? Maybe some data?

I'm joking! Of course you can't!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I've always felt that time and distance was all I needed to know.As
for heart rate which I have found is probably the best indication of
how hard you are going, I used a heart rate monitor for a while, maybe
a year or so, when I was running and found that after a while I could
pretty well sense how much effort I was expending, at least well
enough not to "crash and burn" before the finish line. And, what more
is there?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour.
Popped it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and
never reconsidered.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2022 4:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch from the detector. The only one I have has a magnet that zip ties onto the end of the cranks arm and because the arm has a recess to lighten it up, it doesn't pass nearly as close. The detector zip ties onto the chain stay but unless you have everything set perfectly on, the slightest rotation on the chain stay such as occurs on bumpy roads causes part of the detector to slide slightly down the tapered chain stay, misalign slightly and miss the passing magnet.

Wow. I'm sensing an amazing lack of mechanical aptitude.

I've a cadence sensor on our tandem. It caused a bit of trouble because
mounting the magnet on the left front crank caused the magnet holder to
come too close to the timing chain. I substituted a thin, strong NdFeB
magnet epoxied in place. It works. It's just a magnet, not rocket science.

If the pickup is moving down a tapered frame tube, use a bit of double
sided mounting tape to help keep it in place. If necessary, add shims to
get the sensor oriented as needed.

Other people can figure these things out.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ted Heise]

I started using a HRM some 20 years ago when was trying to race,
nominally to put the right amount of effort into the various
buckets that were fashionable at the time. A few years later that
same device helped me diagnose some mild arrythmias I experienced
at the time. More recently, I find the HRM to give an early
warning of when I may be near overheating.

[Frank Krygowski]

""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
- Henry David Thoreau


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???

Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it."

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.

I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
motor service in all four thick books.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 20.01.2022 um 22:27 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 1:08:42 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 2:38 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One
>>>> of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles
>>>> and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct
>>>> Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing
>>>> its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this
>>>> isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't
>>>> understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the
>>>> speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window.
>>>> Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?
>>>
>>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets
>>> that go bad!
>>>
>>> My sympathies.
>>>
>>>
>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable accommodation to
>> electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>
> The newer Garmin's that you push on the end of the crank arm and
> which allows the magnet to pass within small fractions of an inch
> from the detector.

The newest cadence senosors work with acceleration sensors rather than
with magnets, I recently bought
<https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B08PCH8WN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1>

- problem is to ensure you don't lose the buggers(after two weeks
using this, I lent the bike to my son, and it was gone after two days).

With these it should be feasible to attach the cadence sensor to your
shoe or ankle, especially attractive when you switch between several
bikes. Has anybody tried this yet?

Rolf

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

No, but that's a highly intriguing suggestion. I'm going to try it this weekend. I've already snapped two of the "rubber band" retainers on my Garmin cadence sensor and resorted to just leaving it on one bike. I'm sure I have a velcro strap I could fix the sensor to and try it. I like it!

[Lou Holtman]

I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6

Lou

[Rolf Mantel]

OK, I bought and returned the Moov Fitness Tracker in 2017 which was
working on accelerometer data and assumed the others were working the
same way.

AS the Garmins use the earth magnet field, it's not so obvious whether
they work on a shoe/ankle as well.

Rolf

[William Crowell]

That's because GM never was into servicing the way that Ford and especially Chrysler were. My Chrysler factory service manuals from the '60s through the '80s are thick tomes that tell you how to fix everything in great detail (including rebuilding the carburetor, overhauling the transmission, starter and alternator, etc.), because they wanted the dumbest mechanic in Podunk to be able to keep the customers happy. Same with Porsche. GM, not so much. They want to sell you a new car when the old one breaks.

[AMuzi]

>>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will

>>> eventually come to believe it."
>>>
>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>
>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>> motor service in all four thick books.

> That's because GM never was into servicing the way that Ford and especially Chrysler were. My Chrysler factory service manuals from the '60s through the '80s are thick tomes that tell you how to fix everything in great detail (including rebuilding the carburetor, overhauling the transmission, starter and alternator, etc.), because they wanted the dumbest mechanic in Podunk to be able to keep the customers happy. Same with Porsche. GM, not so much. They want to sell you a new car when the old one breaks.
>

I don't own any Chrysler manuals (never owned a Chrysler
product) but GM manuals cover myriad service details such as
soldering in new diodes to the alternator, rebuild/repair of
every other system. What fails in a Chrysler starter? Not
much, I would assume.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's a very fashionable practice these days in the U.S.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2022 10:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience with
> maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the least trouble-prone
> systems is a 12v starter motor with big heavy iron magnets. Never saw
> one fail except for bearings and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick
> (best remedy- smack smartly with something heavy, especially in cold
> weather) but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>
> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so, since my auto
> library is nearby, I checked the official GM service manuals for 1963,
> 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each has 15 sections (engine specs/setup,
> cooling, exhaust, fuel, suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of
> starter motor service in all four thick books.

In all my years of car ownership, I recall exactly one problem with a
starter motor - but not with the motor itself. Intermittent failure to
crank became ever more common, till I removed the starter and found the
solenoid contacts had worn away.

The specified repair was to replace the unit, which I felt I couldn't
afford. Instead I used some scrap copper to fabricate new contacts.
Those worked for many years, until I dropped the car at a scrap yard.

Magnets? Never a problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

How odd. Familiarity usually builds confidence, or at least acceptance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>
> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6

On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.

OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

When I need a cyclometer is on descents to make sure that I'm not overspeed for the various turns and bumps. But I cannot actually read them at that time. So the true use of them is simply to keep track of the distance for my diaries. Publishing my mileage on LeonardLee's blog has upped his mileage from 15-20 km per ride to 40. That wasn't exactly what it was meant to do, but rather to get him to ride further since he does have a weight problem that bothers him.

[Tom Kunich]

Ted, I haven't quite figured it out but although I would set up the page in "Train" it would always open in "Race" so I got around this by setting up the "Race" page settings the same as the "Train" so that if it ends up in either case I end up with the proper display. Reading back, I see that indeed Flunky was for a change talking about the subject. Thanks for pointing that out. So even Flunky can stick to the bicycles.tech subjects if he things he can demonstrate superiority in some regard.

[Tom Kunich]

And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.

[Tom Kunich]

You are in no way unusual. Many people have no interest in either speed or distance. I was sort of trying to maintain a constant ride distance to not completely exhaust myself. That allows me to work my way up to centuries slowly so that I'm not left in the dust and numb from exhaustion. Many people wouldn't even consider such rides. So they have no need for any of that. I suppose I shouldn't either at my time of life, but it is now a 40 year habit.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm sensing someone that doesn't care what damage someone does to their bike so that you can make your stupid claims. Epoxy and double sided tape is the sort of thing you do on your bike huh? No wonder you prefer 1970's technology.

[Tom Kunich]

The little fat man living in a foreign country under a tyranny always has intelligent things to say as long as he can find them on Google.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They were electro-magnetic in operation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/

Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like my Taurus.

I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets. Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure

I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15 years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974 buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight, and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.

> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car.

That's usually a corrosion issue.

> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.

Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.

> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.

Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters every time, you were cheated.

[Ted Heise]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:33:14 -0800 (PST),

Sounds like you're on the right track. For what it's worth, I've
always found it confusing to have these configurations within the
individual profiles. It makes sense once you get used to it, but
at first (and still later at times) it was hard to figure out.

[AMuzi]

What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?

https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift

Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
Magnetism Change?

[AMuzi]

>>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will

>>> eventually come to believe it."
>>>
>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>
>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>> motor service in all four thick books.
>
> As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They were electro-magnetic in operation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/
>
> Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like my Taurus.
>
> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets. Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
>

That's a stuck solenoid, not a DC motor or magnet failure.

[Frank Krygowski]

Exactly. It's classic.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Ah yes, such benefits.

How have bicyclists ever survived without that?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom, you described a AAA mechanic whacking the starter motor to get
yours to work. That's a classic case of a stuck solenoid, not a motor
problem, and it's been known for many decades.

True family story: My wife's mother used to tell of the Coke bottle she
kept under the hood of their Nash Rambler. She used it to hit the
starter when it wouldn't start.

She wasn't an engineer either.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, my bikes work.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Is there a reason for this snotty remark? What makes this sensor more complex in use then a ‘classic’ wired or wireless senson. For the user it is easier to set up. What is the problem with that?

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
>>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>>
>>>> YMMV.
>>>
>>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>>>
>>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
>>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
>>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
>>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
>>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>>>
>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>
>>>
>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
>> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
>

> ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
> - Henry David Thoreau
>
>
I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!

I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature
interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.

I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more
there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by.

The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or
ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my
wife knowledge that I can be contacted.

And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your
a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods
and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!

That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
display.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 1/21/2022 1:43 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not advising anyone, but I have found a reasonable
>>>>> accommodation to electronic devices on me or my bicycle:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/newfon.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> YMMV.
>>>>
>>>> There's certainly something to be said for that approach!
>>>>
>>>> When I got my first cyclometer, it was partly for training
>>>> motivation, to urge myself to go just a bit faster. And it
>>>> did that. In fact, one of my ancient Avocets has a "pace
>>>> arrow" to tell me if I'm above or below my average speed.
>>>> But I'm now at an age where that's easy to ignore.
>>>>
>>>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
>>>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
>>>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped it off the
>>> handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never reconsidered.
>>
>> ""Our life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, simplify, simplify!"
>> - Henry David Thoreau
>>
>>

> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I don’t worry
> I’m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>
> I like to know my speed and the distance I’ve done. I find the temperature

> interesting though to be honest not needed, same goes for my altitude.
>
> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how much more

> there is! The time up it, I’m rarely bothered by.

>
> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is, is genuinely
> useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop to answer the phone or

> ignore it, as it’s junk etc. plus having had life changing injury gives my

> wife knowledge that I can be contacted.
>
> And Navigating, not so much for road cycling but for Gravel/MTB unless your

> a trail Center rider, it’s really useful to know which track in the woods

> and not end X miles off route down some promising but ultimately dead end!
>

> That’s why I bought the 830 as it can do that, I’ve turned off some of the
> performance/training features and only have what I’m interested in on the
> display.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

I for one have no problem with any of that. If you find the
data interesting it's never been more accurate, more richly
presented nor more affordable.

[Tom Kunich]

You in particular seem to be a purveyor of that practice. You supposedly taught mechanical engineering so it would have been a simple thing for you to explain to small fat Johnny that earlier starter motors used electromagnets and not PM's.

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 10:10:56 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
> >> earth magnetic field.
> >>
> >> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> >
> > On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
> >
> > OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
> >
> >
> What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
>
> https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
>
> Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
> hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
> Magnetism Change?

GPS satellites don't care what the polarity of the Earth's magnetic poles are.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, please stop showing your ignorance of new type cars with PM starter motors. They have a spring loaded starter gear and not a solenoid. Whether you've learned it or not - mechanical devices progress as rapidly as electronics.

[Tom Kunich]

It appears that the 830 has a LOT more features than the 820 has. Plus the menu BS of the 820 was entirely unnecessary. They should have hired me to design the firmware. You should have been able to simply open the main screen and poke and area and assign a feature to it. This is EASY because all of the firmware there presently tried to do it but fell way short.

[Tom Kunich]

Distance and time seem to be well presented and accurate but power readings from Strava fall not even close to a regular power meter. All that means is the bragging rights people have been claiming are pretty poor.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/21/2022 2:30 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 8:00:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
>> Ah yes, such benefits.
>>
>> How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Is there a reason for this snotty remark?

Good grief, Lou, you're touchy!

> What makes this sensor more complex in use then a ‘classic’ wired or wireless senson. For the user it is easier to set up. What is the problem with that?

Hey, if you want it, fine; use it proudly. I don't want it.

We might consider an entire spectrum of bicycle-related complexity, from
a brakeless fixie on one end to perhaps a battery assisted, automatic
transmission, dual suspension monstrosity with automatic brake lights,
turn signals, rear-facing radar, HRM, and navigation system plus total
internet connectivity. Such a bike might even know where the hills are
and process that data with your heart rate to decide your gears for you.
(What could go wrong?)

I suppose each person's sweet spot on that spectrum would be different.
I prefer the simpler end of the spectrum. If my cadence sensor stopped
working (and I even cared) I'd prefer to check whether the pickup had
been bumped; not whether the sending device's battery had died, or water
had corroded its battery contacts, or some micro capacitor had failed,
or I'd gotten too close to some stray source of magnetism, or the
earth's magnetic field had shifted.

But YMMV, obviously.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, I know that without any knowledge of the subject, like fat Johnny you believe that you can google something that will explain all to your advantage but you can't. If you take the PM and hit it a couple of times against a hard surface like an anvil it can totally lose its magnetism. This is nothing more than forcing the atoms back into a disordered state from the ordered state that they were forced into either with another strong magnet or electromagntic fields.

This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.

Why must you continue to show us all how poor a teacher you were?

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:34:49 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Tommy has a phobia of being wrong about anything.

You have a phobia of knowledge of any kind. You and Scharf should get together.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Sure, mr. "light line".

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 8:00:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
> > >> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
> > >>
> > >> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > > Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
> > Ah yes, such benefits.
> >
> > How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Is there a reason for this snotty remark?

It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame. Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues, but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"

[AMuzi]

How new?
Here's a 2021 Camry system, remarkably similar to my 1965
Corvair except the Camry solenoid is a cute bronze-y color.

https://motogurumag.com/diagram-mvxbqc/

[AMuzi]

'Light line' ?? Isn't that a skinner serving of cocaine than
usual, as in 'Hey man, that's a light line' ?

[Ted Heise]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 1/20/2022 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/20/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> >>> I do have cyclometers on almost every bike but they're now
> >>> just for idle curiosity. I very much doubt I'll ever go
> >>> farther down the electronics rabbit hole.
> >>>
> >> I owned an ACT bicycle computer for less than an hour. Popped
> >> it off the handlebar halfway home, tossed it and never
> >> reconsidered.
> >

> I like to have time of day, particularly when commuting so I

> don???t worry I???m going to be late, I *hate* being late!
>
> I like to know my speed and the distance I???ve done. I find

> the temperature interesting though to be honest not needed,
> same goes for my altitude.
>
> I do quite like the Strava/hill climb so will let me know how

> much more there is! The time up it, I???m rarely bothered by.

>
> The connected features such as text/phone calls and who it is,
> is genuinely useful as I can read the text if I wish, and stop

> to answer the phone or ignore it, as it???s junk etc. plus

> having had life changing injury gives my wife knowledge that I
> can be contacted.

Oh that's a good point. I biffed last fall, and my wife got a
text message of an incident telling her the specific location.
She was getting into the car to come scrape me off the pavement
when I managed to connect via phone and tell her I could make it
home on my own.

[Frank Krygowski]

I can only conclude that you have never, ever even played with a modern
permanent magnet.

> This isn't the failure mechanism of the permanent magnet starters. They are constructed with a brittle material that has a high magnetism but because of the brittleness begin cracking in a large number of cases. Whacking them with the pole both breaks them more but causes them to realign enough so that the armature can rotate.

First, since you haven't done so, you apparently _cannot_ provide
evidence that such starter motor failures are common. The only source
seems to be your "memory."

But if you're so confident you're correct, a job at Tesla awaits you.
They seem to think permanent magnet motors are just fine. They're used
in many of their cars. They obviously need your amazing technical
knowledge to stave off financial disaster!

https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla-model-3-motor-designer-permanent-magnet-motor/

(How many Teslas have you seen parked at roadside with failed drive
motors?)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Continue to show your ignorance on every subject. It does make you really look like the person you really are. Saying that I have never played with magnets as an electronic engineer and designed MANY motor drive designs makes you look oh just so intelligent. All it would have taken was to look it up but you're so confident in your knowledge you couldn't even do that.

https://www.thoughtco.com/how-to-demagnetize-a-magnet-607873 - not the part that says that you can demagnetize a permanent magnet by hammering. So explain to them how you're so fucking knowledgeable about magnets that they have obviously never played with modern magnets.

A fool often believes his own words even when they make no sense at all.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:36:22 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:53:27 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:32:01 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:17:56 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

>> >> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:08:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> >> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >> > I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >> >> >

>> >> >> > This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism. I can try to rotate it a little closer, this isn't the same problem on the speed pickup. Also, I don't understand why when it has the speed pickup it doesn't show the speed but instead two windows with RPM and a distance window. Why wouldn't it show speed and RPM and distance?

>> >> >> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!

>> >> >Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either. Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity? Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> >> "PM starter motors have such a high failure rate"???
>> >>
>> >> Tommy, I can't remember ever having to replace a starter motor and my
>> >> experience with starters dates back to the late 1940's.
>> >>
>> >> So perhaps is you'd just scurry around and find us a tiny bit of proof
>> >> that you knew what you were talking about it would make us just So
>> >> happy, to know that Tommy boy "got it right" for, perhaps, the first
>> >> time in the history of the Internet.
>> >
>> >John, can you please continue to show us your ignorance? Starter motors used to be DC electromagnetic until the search for lighter weight to give higher gas mileage started in earnest in the 1990's. I love it when you should your vast knowledge of so many things.
>> Tommy, as I said earlier I've been around autos and their starter

>> motors since the late 1940's and I can't ever remember a starting
>> motor failing on the electrical side although failure or malfunction
>> of the "bendix drive" did happen.
>>
>> And, I might add, after the early 1950's my experience encompassed
>> auto's trucks, airplanes and boats. All with electric starters.
>>
>> Your dementia has obviously grabbed the reins and you are galloping
>> madly toward the finish line.
>
>And as I said that you with your claimed mechanical expertise seem to not know - is that earlier starter motors did not fail as I was talking about because they were made in a different manner. But go right ahead and tell us you know about this. I was working on cars with my father handing him wrenches from 5 years old. That was how I learned fractions years ahead of my classmates. So continue to talk about it as if you understood the problem.

But Tommy, as I stated and Andrew stated and Frank stated... starter
motors of any sort almost never fail. As I said, in some 70 years of
experience I've never seen a starter fail electrically.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:46:44 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 20:10:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski

>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>>
>> >On 1/20/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 12:38:29 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 1/20/2022 2:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>> I hit the road shortly after that posting and besides it being 40 degrees, there was heavy fog with a visibility of 1/4 mile. I didn't like riding in traffic that cannot tell the difference between heavy fog and wet roads and the Daytona 500 so I got off of the main drag and road on the bike trail. Entering the bike trail there was a park ranger parked in such a manner that you could pass on the road. I think he got out to pick up some paper. But in the cold why would he leave his door half open? So I cut by on the grass verge that probably barely had enough traction being soaking wet for me to maneuver back onto the bike path.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Because of the fog and nothing to see I was watching the trail because of the cracks everywhere. I finally made it to the Oakland Airport which has a bike path along one side of the road. I road that into Alameda and there was so damn much traffic at the corner with the coffee shop on it that I just rode past and returned. As I made it to a main rode that feeds the industrial section down on Bay Farm Island I was rather surprised to see a large group of cyclist going the opposite direction. There must have been 20 cyclists in that group. This is a working day! Where are they getting that many people with that much time off? Because of the fog, I missed a lot of normal markers such as a bridge over a creek at the Oakland Colosseum. But no matter, the trail had people and riders on it but a lot less than usual.
>> >>>>

>> >>>> This damned Garmin is going to have to be worked on more. One of the problems was the cadence worked fine for about 4 miles and then stopped working again. Since I'm using all the correct Garmin parts I can only assume that the trip magnet is losing its magnetism...

>> > >
>> >>> You certainly do have lots of problems! Even permanent magnets that go bad!
>> > >
>> >> Well, if I rode a 1985 touring bike with bar end friction shifters and a mechanical speedometer, I probably wouldn't have ant problems either.
>> >

>> >:-) Actually, Tom, I think you would. You remind me of this character
>> >from Lil' Abner
>> >http://www.deniskitchen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BP_240.B.JPG
>> >although Joe tended to be a jinx for other people. Your misfortune seems
>> >to fall on yourself.
>> >
>> >However, there's something to be said for sticking with technology you
>> >can understand. Hey Tom, have you tried a fixie with solid tires? :-)
>> >

>> >> Why don't you give us a dissertation on modern magnets, the materials they are made from and their relative strength and longevity?
>> >

>> >I'll start with some simple citations. When you disprove these using
>> >better information, I'll see if a rebuttal is justified.
>> >
>> > From https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/do-magnets-wear-out/
>> >"a modern samarium-cobalt magnet takes around 700 years to lose half its
>> >strength."
>> >
>> > From
>> >https://www.newscientist.com/lastword/mg24732911-800-does-magnetism-decay-over-time/
>> >"Modern magnets made of rare earth alloys may even last for centuries."
>> >
>> > From https://mpimagnet.com/education-center/how-long-will-your-magnet-last
>> >"Your permanent magnet should lose no more than 1% of its magnetic
>> >strength over a period of 100 years provided it is specified and cared
>> >for properly."
>> >
>> > From
>> >https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/216527/do-magnets-ever-lose-their-magnetism-and-if-so-how-long-does-it-take
>> >"A temporary magnet can lose its magnetization in less than 1 hour.
>> >Neodymium magnets lose less than 1% of their strength over 10 years.
>> >Permanent magnets such as sintered Nd-Fe-B magnets remain magnetized
>> >indefinitely."
>> >

>> >> Then you can explain why modern PM starter motors have such a high failure rate.
>> >

>> >So far, all I've seen is a Kunich allusion to that high failure rate.
>> >Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures are
>> >so terrible? Maybe some data?
>> >
>> >I'm joking! Of course you can't!
>>
>>
>> "Can you give us a reputable link with evidence that their failures

>> are so terrible? Maybe some data?"???
>>
>> Good Lord! Don't you realize that Tommy doesn't have to offer proof of
>> anything? Tommy simply follows the teaching of Dr. Goebbels who taught
>> that "“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
>> eventually come to believe it."
>

>The little fat man living in a foreign country under a tyranny always has intelligent things to say as long as he can find them on Google.


"The little fat man living in a foreign country under a tyranny"???
My goodness Tommy but your dementia is running away with you this
morning, isn't it.

Fat man? I weighed 61 kg this morning. Is that fat? and as for
Tyranny" the government here from the national legislature to village
head men are all elected and no claims of Vote Fraud as in the U.S.

And.... our P.M doesn't dye his hair or wear a girdle and go about
"grabbing women by the pussy" as your hero brags he does.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 08:57:34 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 7:03:14 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

>> > that "的f you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will

>> > eventually come to believe it."
>> >

>> I have a more than usual (less than Mr Slocumb)experience
>> with maintenance of classic motor vehicles and among the
>> least trouble-prone systems is a 12v starter motor with big
>> heavy iron magnets. Never saw one fail except for bearings
>> and the bendix drive. Solenoids do stick (best remedy- smack
>> smartly with something heavy, especially in cold weather)
>> but respond well to a good cleaning and lubrication.
>>
>> I don't recall reading anything about starter motors so,
>> since my auto library is nearby, I checked the official GM
>> service manuals for 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966 just now. Each
>> has 15 sections (engine specs/setup, cooling, exhaust, fuel,
>> suspension, gearbox etc). There's no mention of starter
>> motor service in all four thick books.
>
>As you can see from this citation, the early starter motors did not use permanent magnets through they retained a magnetic field. They were electro-magnetic in operation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/fixing-american-1950s-car-starter-motor-271903/
>
>Starting in the 80's I believe they started converting to permanent magnets since that made the starter cheaper, lighter and so gave increased gas mileage. This was all part of a general lightening of the automobiles from the 6,000 lbs to the present 2,500 for the average compact car. Or 4,000 lbs for the average medium size car like my Taurus.
>
>I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car. He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets. Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.

"since I recovered"???

I can't comment on your actions before you fell off your bike and hit
your head but since then you have always displayed a certain dementia:
Narcissistic personality disorder --

"A mental condition in which people have an
inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive
attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of
empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a
fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism and
frequently respond to what they perceive as criticism with insults and
threats of physical assault."

And no, I have no medical training but most people when they see a
creature that looks like a dog, yaps like a dog and barks at the moon,
Why they call it a dog.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:22:10 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure
>

>I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15 years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974 buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight, and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.

>
>> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack the starter which would then start the car.
>

>That's usually a corrosion issue.

>
>> He said that I should drive it straight to a repair shop because it wouldn't start again because that smack broke the permanent magnets.
>

>Not likely. If a simply rap on the starter housing could break the magnets, there's no way it would survive years worth of vibration mechanical shock, and temperature extremes of being mounted to an engine block.

>
>> Upon arriving at the shop and stopping the engine indeed, it wouldn't turn over.
>

>Because corrosion is progressive. If they charged you for new starters every time, you were cheated.

Well, yes corrosion is progressive and just as dementia is
progressive, as Tommy so aptly demonstrates.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Honestly, a life changing injury has never been a concern of mine. I
started avid adult cycling in 1973 after having ridden constantly
through my childhood and teen years. Never once did I fear that I'd not
make it home. That included (perhaps foolishly) during 50+ mph descents.

Based on available data, the most dangerous thing I do with any
regularity is riding my motorcycle. But even then, I never think "Gosh,
what if I crash and am knocked unconscious or worse?"

One of the oddities of modern life is that most of us are safer by
almost any measure than we have ever been. Yet we are more fearful.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:10:49 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/21/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the
>>> earth magnetic field.
>>>
>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>
>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>
>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>
>>
>

>What happens to bicycle computers when the poles shift?
>
>https://www.sciencealert.com/navigation-systems-finally-caught-up-with-the-mysteriously-north-pole-shift
>
>Aren't we supposed to light our hair on fire, throw our
>hands in the air and run around screaming about Global
>Magnetism Change?

If I remember correctly the magnetic deviation, or "magnetic
declination", as it is sometimes referred to, varies from place to
place. True north, measured by a magnetic compass, ranges from about 5
degrees west in S. Florida to 30 degrees west on the south-eastern tip
of Africa to 26 degrees east on the southern tip of New Zealand.

So there really is a "Global Magnetism Change" If "change" can
indicant "difference" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

>> > that "的f you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will

>> > eventually come to believe it."
>> That's a very fashionable practice these days in the U.S.
>
>You in particular seem to be a purveyor of that practice. You supposedly taught mechanical engineering so it would have been a simple thing for you to explain to small fat Johnny that earlier starter motors used electromagnets and not PM's.

Ah but Tommy, Johnny (is 61 kg fat?) never said that "earlier starter
motors used electromagnets".

you see, I previously said, your dementia is progressive (i.e., it is
getting worse) and you are now imagining things that never occurred.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Errr... Tommy! Here is a picture of a starter and a circuit diagram of
how it works. See the Relay.
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/starter.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 11:57:36 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I have had three cars since I recovered and every one of them had a starter failure
>
> I've had literal 40 cars since I first started driving (the first 15
> years or so were the usual shit-boxes someone from my demographic could
> afford and yes, I can list them all and what happened to them). In those
> intervening 45 years I've had exactly one starter failure - on a 1974
> buick electra 225 (I paid $500 for it). The solenoid failed, not the
> starter motor. We currently have a '09 honda element, '10 honda insight,
> and '15 toyota highlander. Before that I had a '00 volvo v90, a '01 ford
> taurus, and a '96 bonneville. None of them have ever had a starter
> failure and I don't know of anyone who had a start failure in at least
> the past 20 years. You must have _real_ shit luck.

We have had two vehicles in the garage for the last 40 years and I have had
precisely one starter failure, which was due to the contacts on the
solenoid wearing down to the point where they would not make positive
contact.

>
>> and in every case, the AAA guy would reach down with a pole and smack
>> the starter which would then start the car.
>
> That's usually a corrosion issue.

Or a sticky solenoid.

[Ralph Barone]

They have both.

The solenoid is energized by the ignition switch and applies voltage to the
starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter
motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.

[Ralph Barone]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 11:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:04:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2022 8:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought they worked by detecting the direction of the earth magnetic field.
>>>>
>>>> https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=9NL91YJSJd3Tnyif9jRSy6
>>> On one hand, I'm impressed by that technology.
>>>
>>> OTOH, as Jeff says: talk about over-complexicating!
>>>
>>>

>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Over complex? It just a black blob that just works. Only needs a battery
>> once a year (average). Gets rid of the magnet and aligning and the speed
>> sensor can be switched between bikes/wheels within 15 seconds.
>
> Ah yes, such benefits.
>
> How have bicyclists ever survived without that?
>
>

Frank, wonky cadence sensors are definitely a first world problem, but
that’s where we live.

[John B.]

Well Tommy, in regard to your explanation of Starter Motor magnets I
believe that you are lying....

Now I challenge you to prove that you weren't, if you can.

Otherwise we will have to start referring to you as "Hot Arse Tom" as
in "Liar, Liar, pants on fire." as the playground chant has it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix
drives are out and solenoids are in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid

[John B.]

We must ask Tommy, it there are "Light" lines are there also "Heavy"
lines?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I'd have a look at the ground contacts for both battery and
starter before buying a new one. YMMV.

[AMuzi]

Yes there's a declination correction from 'true north' as
every Boy Scout is taught in order to use compass and maps:
http://canebrake13.com/media/img/mapCompass_declination.png

Add in the movement of the poles' locations:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ec926ed000ff9a5e30fc12606dca6852-c

Add in theories that the poles periodically shift polarity:
https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012-poleReversal.html

and you have a great tool for fearmongers.

[John B.]

Sort of like Chicken Little and "The sky is falling" (:-) Or maybe
"voter fraud" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear†is driven by the starter

>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>
>>
>

> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>

Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
battery cable current directly to the starter motor.

Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.

Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.

Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:

https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif

[John B.]

>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear�€? is driven by the starter

>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>
>>>
>>

>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>
>
>Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>
>Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>
>Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>
>Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>
>https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif

I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
"Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.

More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
motor.
https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter

>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>
>>>
>>

>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>
>
> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>
> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>
> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>
> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>
> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>

It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel gear.

[AMuzi]

>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear� is driven by the starter

>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>
>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>
>>
>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>
>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>
>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>
>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>
>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>
> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>
> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
> motor.
> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>

See also:
https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison

[AMuzi]

>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear†is driven by the starter

>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>
>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>
>>
>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>
>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>
>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>
>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>
>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>
>
> It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
> spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
> current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel gear.
>

Yes, subtle but all 'of a type'. Nothing we've discussed
indicates any particular problem or degradation of permanent
magnet DC starter motors.

[Ralph Barone]

>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear” is driven by the starter

>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>
>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>
>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>
>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>
>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>>
>>
>> It looks to be a subtle difference. Instead of relying on the helical
>> spline of the Bendix drive, the starter solenoid not only makes the high
>> current contacts, but also forces the starter gear into the flywheel gear.
>>
>
> Yes, subtle but all 'of a type'. Nothing we've discussed
> indicates any particular problem or degradation of permanent
> magnet DC starter motors.
>

Agreed. Nothing different with respect to magnet design.

[John B.]

>>>>> starter motor. The “spring loaded starter gear�€? is driven by the starter

>>>>> motor via a helical spline. The inertia of the gear forces it out on the
>>>>> shaft, where it then engages with gear teeth on the flywheel to start the
>>>>> engine. When the engine overruns the starter, the over speed of the engine,
>>>>> plus the return spring pushes the starter gear back along the helical
>>>>> spline, which disengages it from the flywheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> I guess I’m officially old now (but not as old as most of you). Bendix

>>>> drives are out and solenoids are in.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid
>>>>
>>>
>>> Uh, the solenoid uses a low-amp circuit (from the driver's
>>> starter switch) to close the connection of the big fat
>>> battery cable current directly to the starter motor.
>>>
>>> Rotation of the starter motor throws out the gear on a
>>> bendix shaft to engage the flywheel gear. Once the engine
>>> turns faster than the starter motor, the gear disengages.
>>>
>>> Aside from some 'safety' interlinks, nothing's changed.
>>>
>>> Compare 2021 system (above) to Chevrolet's 1955/1956 here:
>>>
>>> https://www.trifive.com/d1/garage/57%20Chevy%20Assembly%20Manual/221-14.gif
>>
>> I think that the difference is that, as you note, the so called
>> "Bendix" system in which rotation of the starter shaft forced the
>> starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel's gear.
>>
>> More modern systems use the starter "relay" to move the starter pinion
>> into mesh as well as closing the "switch" to operate the starter
>> motor.
>> https://tinyurl.com/2p8etf3r
>>
>
>See also:
>https://www.midwestequipment.com/post/relays-vs-solenoids-vs-contactors-a-comparison

That is getting very much into semantics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor

It probably depends on who is saying what to who. For example, I
worked for a year or so as an Interior Electrician at an Air Base and
we used Solenoid to identify any electrically operated switch and we
never used the term "contactor" for any purpose.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 9:45:19 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 2:30:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:


> > Is there a reason for this snotty remark?
> It's called sarcasm, and should be treated as such. Given the level of vitriol from a few members here (guilty as charged) it was pretty tame.

Don't you think we can do with a little less sarcasm here? I think we do.

> Like you, I appreciate the plug-n-play simplicity of the single-component solution and certainly prefer it over the magnet/reed switch with the (albeit minor) alignment issues,

That was my point. It is less complicated for most people but we get 'sarcasm' from someone who doesn't actual use it.

>but at the end of the day such advancements don't really enhance my cycling experience to any great extent. If I didn't have a cadence monitor at all it wouldn't affect my riding habits at all, so there is a certain amount of credibility with a comment like "gee, how have I survived this long without that?"

That was not the point. Someone mentioned here how the latest cadence/speed sensors work. I corrected that with a link and dang here comes Frank saying it is complicated and fool that I am I tried to explain why it isn't complicated but more simple and than we get sarcasm. The whole process pisses me off. I think I go 'visit' Jay for a while. WTF.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 3:50:37 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

> 'Light line' ?? Isn't that a skinner serving of cocaine than
> usual, as in 'Hey man, that's a light line' ?

That's one application (thanks for the trip down memory lane btw :) ). However, calling fiber optic wires "light lines" isn't.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:03:29 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:43:08 -0000 (UTC),
> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

> --
Don't know if you're seen it, there's an apple watch commercial on TV right now that is selling exactly that feature:
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/qeWo/apple-watch-series-7-bobs-911-call