OT engineering

[AMuzi]

Pursuant to a recent discussion here, some real world
applications of measurement:

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2023/04/07/sea-tac-airports-new-1b-international-terminal-too-tight-a-squeeze-for-20-big-jets/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 07:30:49 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Pursuant to a recent discussion here, some real world
>applications of measurement:
>
>https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2023/04/07/sea-tac-airports-new-1b-international-terminal-too-tight-a-squeeze-for-20-big-jets/

I read several posts wit the same title but none of then gave any
details of just what was too small.

The problem is not, or was not, particularly uncommon as planes grew
bigger and bigger. I remember the nose in parking and air bridge
entrances at the terminal building at the Phuket Thailand airport were
too small to allow larger aircraft to park, nose into the building and
they had to park across the taxiway and you had to walk across the
taxiway to get into the building.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 5:30:56 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> Pursuant to a recent discussion here, some real world
> applications of measurement:
>
> https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2023/04/07/sea-tac-airports-new-1b-international-terminal-too-tight-a-squeeze-for-20-big-jets/

I was between jobs and took a job recovering commercial aircraft during the Vietnam Airlift for 3 years. The recent size increase in aircraft has not been all of that recent and this is clearly a failure of design. None of the present aircraft are as large as the 747 was so the failure of this design in pure unadulterated incompetence.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 07:30:49 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Pursuant to a recent discussion here, some real world
>applications of measurement:
>
>https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2023/04/07/sea-tac-airports-new-1b-international-terminal-too-tight-a-squeeze-for-20-big-jets/

Nice mess. I don't know if this applies here, but one common problem
with such large construction projects is that during the design phase
of the project, the various prospective contractors, such as Clark
Construction, are not allowed to participate in the design because it
might give someone an unfair advantage in the bidding process. This
tends to limit the abilities of contractors to identify mistakes.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 10:08:26 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 07:30:49 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>Pursuant to a recent discussion here, some real world
>>applications of measurement:
>>
>>https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2023/04/07/sea-tac-airports-new-1b-international-terminal-too-tight-a-squeeze-for-20-big-jets/
>
>Nice mess. I don't know if this applies here, but one common problem
>with such large construction projects is that during the design phase
>of the project, the various prospective contractors, such as Clark
>Construction, are not allowed to participate in the design because it
>might give someone an unfair advantage in the bidding process. This
>tends to limit the abilities of contractors to identify mistakes.

It is assumed that the folks who design the project know what they are
doing, or at least what the client want to build. The "new" Bangkok
Airport structures, for example, were designed by a company that has
been,, successfully one assumes, designing large projects since 1974.

Construction companies, at least in my experience, are more concerned
with how to do something. You want to build a building 1,000 feet
high? Damn! How are we going to haul the steel way up there?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 06:01:31 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

As I read the article, the problem is not with the construction of the
airport terminal, but rather in the original design. Despite the
lawsuits, I don't think the contractor (Clark Construction) could be
blamed for anything. I'm not sure if allowing the prospective
contractors become involved in the initial design would have caught
the problem. Someone specified the terminal capacity, probably in
terms of aircraft types and specific models. After that, it was just
a matter of implementation, which all subsequent parties seem to have
executed in a proper manner. Whether it was a "measurement" error,
arithmetic error, CAD error, failure to perform a suitable plan check,
or failure to properly specify what the airport needed, is unknown. My
guess(tm), it was the failure to properly specify what the airport
wanted or needed.

[John B.]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 19:32:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Well, the owner establishes the basic design specifications. You have
to tell the designer what and where and how much. And then if You
decide to change things without discussions with the designer then you
probably will have problems. The end of the runway at Takhli Air Base,
built in the '50's, in Thailand started to crack.... the U.S. Air
Force started landing BIG airplanes there on runways designed for
lighter, single engine, aircraft.

If you are building off shore platforms the designer tells you how
long to make the legs, you, the fabrication yard, don't have to go out
there with a rock on a rope
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 11:09:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Things have changed since then. Today, the airport terminal would
have been designed and built very differently. The design is now done
on a computer in 3D and is more an exercise in assembly than
construction.

The clients view the exterior and interior rooms from any viewpoint
using virtual reality or a 2D simulation software. The BOM (bill of
materials) is selected from a library of parts. The design software
include load calculations, energy estimates, plumbing placement,
wiring placement, code checks, etc. If conduit needs to be run
through an I-beam, the hole is no longer cut with a torch on site, but
instead fabricated in an offsite shop. That includes any bolt holes,
coatings, paint, marking, insulation, and such.

The structure is then assembled per the drawings from fabricated
components. They arrive on site and are immediately installed onto
the structure as there is no available space to stage anything on
site. It's much like a kit home, but on a larger scale. Chances of
something not fitting is very small and is most often caused by
failure to follow the order of assembly instructions rather than
tolerance problems.

If there were any manner of "measurement error" in the assembly
stages, things simply would not have fit together. It would have been
instantly obvious in the early stages of assembly. However, the
airport terminal was already assembled and functional long before
anyone discovered that it couldn't handle larger or more numerous
aircraft. That makes it a specification or design error, not an
assembly error (because all the parts fit together properly).

SEA Airport Terminal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle%E2%80%93Tacoma_International_Airport>

Airport Terminal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_terminal>

[John B.]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 23:21:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

I think you are missing the ball. Your explanation reads as though
you go to the computer and say "gimmy me an airport" and Ziiiip one
pops out of the printer.

Which all sounds pretty good except it won't work. When you build a
large structure you start with the dirt. Using Suvarnabhumi Airport,
(the 2nd newer of Bangkok's two airports) as an example, the first
problem was the soil, part of the location was "solid ground" and part
was sort of swampy. But... much of the property was government owned
so we sorta gotta build it over there 'cause it'll cost a LOT if we
move it".

Next problem, what we gonna do about the swampy parts? Can we just
back fill or have we gotta do something different.....

Oh yes, then Bangkok is sinking. Do we have to worry about that out
here where we are going to build the airport?

So the first question is "whatta we gonna do to keep the damned
pavement and buildings from sinking into the slime?"

We ain't even bought the computer and already we got problems to solve
:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I have a nice inspirational quotation taped on one of my
monitors, "Computers allow us to make mistakes with greater
confidence."

[AMuzi]

Or the builders could just throw the project up while
ignoring inadequate footings. What could go wrong?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/leaning-san-francisco-skyscraper-tilting-3-inches-year-engineers-rush-rcna11389

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you suppose that they would construct a building of that size using ONLY the bottom dimensions of the building as a support base? No other buildings in earthquake prone San Francisco does that.

[Andre Jute]

I have four sets of vernier callipers. I could send them one... -- AJ

[Tom Kunich]

In the case of the Airport Terminal it demonstrates incompetence of a very high order. I'm sure that Frank has some excuses for their degrees.

[AMuzi]

On 4/9/2023 9:21 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Why? Because hanging them from the sky doesn't work.

Seriously, my understanding is that he footings are on loose
fill, didn't go down to a solid rock base.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 09:08:36 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>I have a nice inspirational quotation taped on one of my
>monitors, "Computers allow us to make mistakes with greater
>confidence."

Blame the computers? Perhaps in this case, a more appropriate
aphorism would be "Computers allow us to make mistakes with greater
precision". Just one problem. The inability to cram a sufficient
number of large airplanes around an airport terminal has nothing to do
with precision. One could dramatically increase the accuracy and
precision of the measuring equipment involved and the problem would
still be there. Same with having greater confidence (or trust) in the
ability of the planners and/or designers to make a mistake.

I find it interesting that you would blame the computer, when the
problem is likely to have been caused by a bad design specification
for the number of airplanes that the terminal can simultaneously
service. For that, the computer is the solution, not the cause, of
the problem. I've played with office and factory layout software,
where I manipulate scaled furniture on the screen to see how
everything fits together. Something like this web app:
<https://www.smartdraw.com/floor-plan/room-planning-software.htm?id=110835>
If someone had done that with scaled airplanes and the terminal, the
problem might have been identified. The above program doesn't do
airport terminal layouts, but could probably be convinced to do
something useful. Example:
<https://www.smartdraw.com/site-plan/examples/campus-site-plan/>

The problem with today's computers is that they are best used when
everything is virtualized. That requires that the designers and users
have a fairly good imagination. I don't have a problem with that, but
do recall in early grade school, that many student had difficulties
visualizing blind and hidden features in a simple isometric drawing.
If we ever get 3D holographic computer displays, that might be less of
a problem, but we're not there yet.

Many years ago I worked next to SJC (San Jose, CA) airport and watched
the construction of various expansions. Most of these projects
included a cardboard and foam scale model of the proposed expansions.
I vaguely recall one model, for a new terminal, that included a few
airplane models parked around the proposed terminal. I don't recall
if they represented that actual size of the airplanes, but they
certainly didn't represent the maximum number of airplanes that the
terminal could service. If there had been a similar design error on
those projects, it would probably not have been caught in a design
review using a hand made scale model.

Maybe if the designers had used a slide rule and mechanical tabulator?

[AMuzi]

There's something to be said for analog systems. Not
everything, but something.

At a space we rented for many years, periodic churning of
the store layout was done with a large scaled floor drawing
on gridded paper with all the various fixtures, bike racks
etc on scaled pieces of paper. I still have that big
envelope somewhere.

[Tom Kunich]

Funny how those structural engineers using slide rules and mechanical tabulators designed aircraft terminals the correct size. And unlike Liebermann, they didn't have to kiss Bill Gates ass.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 13:17:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>There's something to be said for analog systems. Not
>everything, but something.

Officially, I used to be an RF (radio frequency) engineer, which is
basically an analog engineering function. I did some digital, mostly
PLL (phase locked loop) synthesizers, but usually left the digital
stuff to others. At the time (1970 through 2000) there were a large
number of digital designers and programmers, but few analog designers.
That's because the journals constantly portrayed the future as being
all digital, where digital technology would eventually replace
everything analog, while analog was portrayed as ancient technology. I
was tempted to switch to digital and even purchased an early IBM 5150
PC in order to learn something about what the digital world might be
like, but eventually flipped a coin and selected analog. Eventually,
many things went digital, but analog didn't disappear.

If I had to choose between analog and digital for designing an airport
terminal, it would probably be a combination of both. Digital for
producing the G-code for producing the component parts and mountain of
documentation, but analog for visualization, stress testing,
aesthetics, environmental flow control, door actuators, etc. The
problem with that is if a mistake is made in the digital part of the
project, it tends to be well hidden among the neat columns of numbers
and impressive computer generated graphs, printouts and 3D graphics.

>At a space we rented for many years, periodic churning of
>the store layout was done with a large scaled floor drawing
>on gridded paper with all the various fixtures, bike racks
>etc on scaled pieces of paper. I still have that big
>envelope somewhere.

I did the same in various offices over the years. I started with a
drafting table, light table and some overpriced C size graph paper. I
made cutouts from card board and played with various layouts. Fast
forward about 40 years and I was doing essentially the same thing on a
computer in 2D, which was good enough for floor plans. I also did
floor layouts for some of my customers. The hard part was getting
accurate dimensions of the room or building from the plans. Since all
the local offices and buildings were from the era where the contractor
was responsible for fabricating and assembling the building parts,
there was inevitably some dimensional creativity required. That might
be what you meant by "real world applications of measurement". That
doesn't happen with plasma cut or 3D printed fabricated shapes, NC
(numerical controlled) parts (beams, windows, trusses, wall panels
manufacture, etc. It's like building a Heathkit, where everything you
need is provided ready to bolt, screw, weld, solder, glue or if
desperate, nail together.

[John B.]

Or even earlier in Pisa, was it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 11:22:10 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/9/2023 9:21 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Perhaps I'm being picky but I don't believe that any foundation is
built on loose fill (:-) Compacted fill, maybe, but even that can be a
bit iffy. We once had to build the foundations for some rather large
oil storage tanks and the most convenient place to put them was on an
area where there was quite a slope. The company that would own the
tanks initially said, "just dump in some fill and compact it" but our
Dirt Guy told the company that to do this he wanted detailed
instructions in writing. The company decided to move the location of
the tanks (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 4:06:26 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 13:17:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >At a space we rented for many years, periodic churning of
> >the store layout was done with a large scaled floor drawing
> >on gridded paper with all the various fixtures, bike racks
> >etc on scaled pieces of paper. I still have that big
> >envelope somewhere.
> I did the same in various offices over the years. I started with a
> drafting table, light table and some overpriced C size graph paper. I
> made cutouts from card board and played with various layouts. Fast
> forward about 40 years and I was doing essentially the same thing on a
> computer in 2D, which was good enough for floor plans.

I've done it both ways, mostly the old way, with 2D scale cutouts on paper
scale models of rooms. I did that for new laboratory spaces with new equipment,
and for the design of an addition to our home.

But for a more recent redesign of my home office, including new shelf units etc.
I used 3D models I drew up in Sketchup. My office space is pretty tight, and I
really needed to see all three dimensions to properly design the shelves I was
building and how they would fit in the room.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 7:14:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

Exactly what sort of engineer would think that boring 24 huge holes in the basement of a tilting building and poring cement in them would stabilize the building? I think that they have backed off to a fraction of that and the building is STILL tilting and sinking. This will eventually lead to the entire tearing down of the building to protect all of the surrounding property.

I took my wife out to Quinn's Lighthouse which is a restaurant in Oakland. Usually their daily specials are the best thing available so I got a pork loin. It was almost perfectly prepared, as was the mashed potatoes bed it sat on and the perfectly done asparagus which I am very picky about. The glass of Mondavi Cabernet was not a good wine and my wife made the mistake of ordering Shrimp Louie off of the standard menu instead of the Crab Louie special. Coming off of the standard menu made the prawns thawed from frozen and her glass of Prosecco was OK but the bill came to $120 with the tip plus sales tax. We also had desert which in my case was an almost impossible Espresso Flan which I didn't know until they serve it. Normal flan would have been OK but the "coffee flavor" made it barely tolerable. My wife had chocolate layer cake which was too large a piece and between the layers was 1/4" of frosting which would upset anyone's stomach. So while my dinner was OK, I'm afraid her Easter dinner was somewhat spoiled. The roads to and from were broken up so badly that cars had to dodge deep potholes! California - the place where Liebermann believes himself an engineer.

Like the quoted airline terminal that a 12 year old could have gotten correct, and the leaning tower of SF that clearly had insufficient footing, we have an entire generation of moronic city administrators that do not have the ability to think. They HIRED here a city engineer that recommended that Chabot Rd. was safe for very heavy truck traffic for as much as 80 years - the damn section of road that they were allowing heavy truck traffic on was flaking away with BICYCLE traffic! One week after this approval, we had a hard rain and the entire road collapsed down the hillside. This entire section of road is now closed indefinitely.

The Democrats have chased ALL of the businesses out of California. Auto Row in Oakland is GONE. Now auto row in San Leandro is gone except for the Kia and Honda and Ford dealers. The Ford dealer is not long for this world and the Honda dealer was very thin on the lot. The state is dying. Illegals are everywhere and they are being allowed to vote because they are yet too uneducated to know that the Democrats are manipulating them. California will NOT be turned around now. With no real business left, the jobs are all minimum wage and entirely service industry, food markets, mechanics (who themselves are hurting because it is cheaper to buy a used car than to repair a newer one.) Wild crime is rampant and smart people are afraid to go out at night when drunken illegals are making our world a dangerous place without fear of punishment.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>the place where Liebermann believes himself an engineer.

Tom: What inspired that unrelated comment? Are you trying to attract
attention? Surely, you don't want my attention as all I do is
demonstrate that your amazing facts and bizarre opinions are wrong. I
also like to ask questions which you ignore. Of course, you won't be
replying to this message because you are using a non-existent Google
kill file program.

Anyway, I'm busy. I want to get my taxed over and done with by the
original deadline and not wait until Oct 16, 2023:
<https://www.gov.ca.gov/2023/03/02/more-time-to-file-state-taxes-for-californians-impacted-by-december-and-january-winter-storms/>

I guess I should include an unanswerable question. As I understand
it, you're about 6ft 4in tall. How did you keep from banging your
head on the hard top roofs of your impressive stable of Triumph sports
cars? Or were they all soft tops? If you kept the Triumph(s) in the
garage, where did you put your 14(?) bicycles?

02/16/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/JOuW1-q9gVI/m/pqo8Wgt2BgAJ>
"I have contacted several of the other ex-members of the group and
their suggestion to me is to stop responding to the morons. Hence I
will."

[John B.]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 16:49:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>the place where Liebermann believes himself an engineer.
>
>Tom: What inspired that unrelated comment? Are you trying to attract
>attention? Surely, you don't want my attention as all I do is
>demonstrate that your amazing facts and bizarre opinions are wrong. I
>also like to ask questions which you ignore. Of course, you won't be
>replying to this message because you are using a non-existent Google
>kill file program.
>
>Anyway, I'm busy. I want to get my taxed over and done with by the
>original deadline and not wait until Oct 16, 2023:
><https://www.gov.ca.gov/2023/03/02/more-time-to-file-state-taxes-for-californians-impacted-by-december-and-january-winter-storms/>
>
>I guess I should include an unanswerable question. As I understand
>it, you're about 6ft 4in tall. How did you keep from banging your
>head on the hard top roofs of your impressive stable of Triumph sports
>cars? Or were they all soft tops? If you kept the Triumph(s) in the
>garage, where did you put your 14(?) bicycles?
>
>02/16/2022
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/JOuW1-q9gVI/m/pqo8Wgt2BgAJ>
>"I have contacted several of the other ex-members of the group and
>their suggestion to me is to stop responding to the morons. Hence I
>will."

But, but, but..... if he stops responding to the fearless four, or is
it five now? Then he has no one to communicate with - to tell him how
to install a seat post or handle bars. Can you ride a bike without a
seat post and handle bars? Without the five he'd have to walk.
--
Cheers,

John B.