Light bike

[Tom Kunich]

If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.

And I have replaced it with a Specialized Allez aluminum frameset. The wheelset I have for it isn't as light as the Bontrager X-Lite but not bad either. Since I have the complete Dura Ace 10 speed group and a long arm 105 rear derailleur they will be set up identical and I will only have the BMC with a manual Campy 12 speed group.

The Allez was so cheap that the shipping and sales tax was more expensive so the Serotta is no loss.But I expect the man with the freewheel bike to have something to say about changing bikes since he is riding his original 30 pound lead weight.

It should be comical. "Oh you bad person, using more than one bike and all of them under 20 lbs." But it is fine that he lives in a place that is 96% white. And he has to "prepare" himself to venture out of the safety of an all-white neighborhood. Ohio is not a safe state. But from the safety of Poland,OH, he can pretend it is.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.

Nice:
<https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
Last bicycle at bottom of the page.

How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
weight limit.

08/08/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
"The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
(209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
"Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
of 95kg."

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg

Not every day but not unknown either.

(anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
carbon too)

--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.

[AMuzi]

> Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.

Sand blasting by a guy not familiar with bicycles and with
coarse media can also cut holes through bicycle frame tubes,
remove lug edge detail.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?

I also question whether the holes in the two photos are sufficiently
large to be considered dangerous to ride. Offhand, they seem to be
smaller than the holes used to install water bottle cages. 5mm bolt
in a 7mm diameter Rivnut hole. I wouldn't install a Rivnut, but I
would certainly consider brazing (not welding) the hole closed. Of
course, borescope inspection of the area around the hole and
ultrasonic metal thickness testing will determine if welding is a
suitable repair.

I also question the use of sand blasting. On an ultra light frame,
where material thickness and avoiding stress risers is important, any
manner of metal removal could be a problem. Sand also leaves a matt
finish which could look bad when painted. It should have been soda
blasted, which leaves a smoother finish. Soda blasting is easier to
clean up, is ecologically correct and provides a smoother finish that
doesn't require much polishing. Unlike sand, (baking) soda can be
dissolved in water, filtered, recrystalized and reused. A better way
would be to use paint remover but this is California, where the VOC
ban has reduced the available paint stripper chemicals to a few that
barely work.

"Don’t sandblast the powder!"
<https://www.kellybike.com/dont-sandblast-powder/>
"For those of you who are sending your bike out to be refinished
(powder or wet) make damn sure that your painter or powdercoating
person understands that your frame is of thin metal and should be
chemically stripped - not sand blasted."

>(anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
>carbon too)

Looks like the forks and seat stays are carbon fiber, but the top tube
and the rest of the frame is steel:
<https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
<https://www.sefiles.net/merchant/190/images/site/fierteti05.jpg>
I don't know the standard procedure but I suspect that if one major
defect is found in the top tube, it might be a good idea to inspect
the rest of the frame for similar or related defects.

[AMuzi]

Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
residue!

There is no paint remover outside California either. After
two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
ingredient, methylene chloride.

In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
actually open points. That's a tube replacement.

p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
Kunich's specific current ride.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 08:23:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did?

Why does someone who chronically gets everything wrong continue to
proclaim his expertise in literally everything?

Incidentally, I've noticed that there's a relationship between giving
advice and accepting advice. Those who do not accept advice generally
have great difficulties trying to work around the embarrassment of
admitting that they don't know everything. That's you, Tom. Have you
fixed the minor typo in the current version of your resume where you
confused XT with XP? You probably never will because you didn't find
the mistake while I did. Speaking only for myself, I avoid taking
advice from someone who doesn't know how to accept advice (or who
doesn't know how to admit that he is wrong).

Incidentally, I've had some bad experiences with automotive
sandblasting and removing Bondo autobody filler (styrene). When
working with thin metal, I've had better luck with a propane torch.
The trick is to not overheat the plastic. It will burn quite nicely.

"Bondo Removal"
<https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/bondo-removal/>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:28:11 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
>current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
>residue!

I hadn't heard of that, but it seems like a good idea.

In around 1980, we had a local paint and sand blasting shop. The
owner invented a method of separating the used blasting sand from the
paint and metal particles. It used a centrifuge and a few coarse
filters. It wasn't very good at removing metal dust and rust, but
worked well for removing paint. I have no idea what happened to it.

>There is no paint remover outside California either. After
>two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
>and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
>ingredient, methylene chloride.

Someone I barely remember worked in a furniture stripper ship. He had
protective clothing and breathing apparatus that resembled an old hard
hat diving suit. One day, we noticed that he hadn't appeared at the
usual gathering place for several months. Something had gone wrong
with the suit and the methylene chloride probably killed him.

>In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
>remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
>actually open points. That's a tube replacement.

In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage.

>p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
>Kunich's specific current ride.

I was commenting on Tom's latest bicycle problem.

I'm still wondering about the use of Bondo on an ultra light frame.
The frame had previously been painted by someone who knew about the
hold and used Bondo to "fix" the problem. I don't see the logic in
going through all that trouble, just to unload a frame that needs a
new top tube. The original listing was Sept 25, 2023. Unfortunately,
it disappeared from eBay sold items archive:

"Serotta Fierte 58cm - 60cm frame, steel w/carbon stays. Needs
refinishing":
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/394747369993>
The listing ended yesterday, Mon Sep 25 at 2:35 AM.

Also:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/fWspzUiZ_po/m/XGruj9XQAAAJ>
Oddly, it says "Needs refinishing", which suggests that it had been
heavily used and probably had NOT been repainted. Also, the seller
didn't notice the hole and willing to risk riding it. In order to
explain the presence of Bondo under the paint, the seller would have
had to paint the frame AFTER the Bondo was applied and specifically to
make the frame sellable on eBay. Painting to hide the Bondo and
"needs refinishing" makes no sense.

My guess(tm) is that the alleged hole in the frame and Bondo were
fabrications intended to make Tom appear to be a victim. For what
purpose, I have no idea.

[sms]

On 1/30/2024 10:04 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
> haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
> My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
> was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?

No, you want more rust, or at least the appearance of rust.

I recently fixed up my daughters old UCSC bike, an old Specialized
Expedition hybrid (not the classic Expedition touring bicycle). It had
been pretty abused while in Santa Cruz, with a lot of scraped off paint.

I bought can of spray-on "rust effect" "Rust EFFECT spray creates the
illusion of rust and oxidation" and tried to make it look even worse by
spraying the areas where the paint had been scraped off. It will be
parked outside in San Francisco. We'll see how long the bike lasts
before being stripped or stolen, but it looks pretty awful, other than
the new tires and new pedals. It lasted four years in Santa Cruz pretty
well, in fact the only part stolen was half of a Mirrycle mirror
(wondering what the thief did with that).

[Tom Kunich]

It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 12:05:06 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 10:04 AM, Jeff Lieber> > I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I

Leaving a bike out to be stolen is a unique idea. As for Liebermann with his usual stupiddity = when there is a hole in the tubing and free rust rattling around inside of the top tube one might get the idea that there was some damage if he was capable of putting two thoughts together.

I

[AMuzi]

I once found (heard it first!) a pinhole leak in a steam
pipe in the dead of winter. I put a ball bearing in it and a
stainless hose clamp around the pipe which lasted until the
end of my lease. Seemed like a better idea than the endless
conversation with the landlord, long repair process with no
heat and the frightening possibility of a building inspector.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:23:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>As for Liebermann with his usual stupiddity = when there is a hole in the tubing and free rust rattling around inside of the top tube one might get the idea that there was some damage if he was capable of putting two thoughts together.

I see. You bought the frame on eBay in Sept 2023. You left it
hanging around for 4 months, didn't inspect the it, and never noticed
the rust hole or "free rust rattling around inside". You then sent it
out to be sand blasted and painted. Only then did you discover the
Bondo and rust problem. You must be terribly non-observant and
amazingly trusting of the eBay vendor to receive the frame without
inspecting it. Also strange is that the previous owner would close
the hole with Bondo without cleaning out the "free rust rattling
around inside" the top tube.

If you're going to lie, at least make your lies reasonable, logical
and believable. As your self appointed personal fact checker, you're
making this far too easy. It's also becoming boring because
everything you write seems to be a lie. Maybe try something less
creative and closer to the truth.

Perhaps some light reading will help:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+lie+effectively>

"Top Ten Secrets of Effective Liars"
<https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/extreme-fear/201005/top-ten-secrets-effective-liars>
"How to lie and get away with it"

Your biggest problem is "#5 Keep your facts straight". You're
expected to use known facts to substantiate your lies. That doesn't
work when your substantiating facts are also lies. Think about how
advertisements for miracle cures, amazing inventions, and magic
remedies work. They all start with a series of generally accepted and
believable facts. Once the viewer is hypnotized into agreement by a
endless succession of agreeable facts, the announcer casually adds an
amazing claim on behalf of his sponsor, and immediately continues with
more agreeable facts. The amazing claim is the payload and all the
facts are of little importance. You can probably structure your
"amazing facts" presentations to follow something similar. I could
offer some specific suggestions, but since you have chronically
ignored my suggestions, I'll save myself the effort.

Gone to Safeway for some pre-storm panic shopping. The weather
forecast looks like the beginning of 40 days and 40 nights of rain.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.

Why are you powder coated the bicycle? Powder coating is much heavier
than ordinary paint. With an ultralight bicycle, every milligram is
precious.

<https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=402>
"normal paint adds about 35-45 grams to a frame only( 50-54 cm.)
powder coat will be 2-3X that"

[John B.]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 08:23:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope that when you say "sand Blasting" you actually mean something
different - "Bead Blasting" for actual, as "sand" blasting is a rather
severe method of cleaning, especially on something like thin steel
tubing. Not normally ever used on aircraft parts, for example.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/30/2024 4:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.
>
> Why are you powder coated the bicycle? Powder coating is much heavier
> than ordinary paint. With an ultralight bicycle, every milligram is
> precious.
>
> <https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=402>
> "normal paint adds about 35-45 grams to a frame only( 50-54 cm.)
> powder coat will be 2-3X that"

True, in my experience. I recently had my touring bike powder coated. It
came back several ounces heavier. I thought I'd written down the weight
difference, but I couldn't find it right now.

Not that it matters much to me. If I want less weight, I'll start with
my body. I'm lighter now than in the past few years, but I'm still
heavier than I was at my fastest, years ago.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

Genius repair solution, how did you think of that?
Must have been a fairly low pressure steam system, but still.

We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

[AMuzi]

Relatively modern (1960s?) gas system upgraded from coal
(new firebox & boiler, same piping and radiators) at 8~12 psi.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>
> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.

It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

As you say, there's little difference though the one pipe system usually used copper pipes and lasted a long time while the two pipe system was earlier and used iron pipes and rusted out. Air Force barracks used coal and steam heat.

[Radey Shouman]

Properly maintained one- and two-pipe steam systems use black iron pipe.
The temperature swings in a steam system are large enough to cause
soldered copper joints to eventually fail.

[Tom Kunich]

As I said, modern systems use copper pipe. The temperature swing is at MOST 100 degrees C and that will not cause a proper solder jointed joint to fail since the melting point of solder is about 183 C. Also the latest radiators are quite efficient at getting ride of heat and that means that in single pipe systems there is a wall of water below the steam point on the tube during operation. Iron pipes are heavy and eventually rust through. My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.

[Radey Shouman]

Not much new in steam radiators, most buy them used for better quality,
lower price, and nicer appearance. Copper joints fail due to work
hardening over time.

Copper is certainly better for water pipes, if you have black iron or,
especially, galvanized you should replace them. For steam heat copper
is wrong.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:58:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.

Zillow says your house was built in 1955 which makes it 69 years old.
Other sites (Realtor.com, Trulia, Spokio, etc) all show either 1955 or
1956.

"Galvanized iron pipes"
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/galvanized-iron-pipes>

You might want to test for lead contamination, which might explain
where your amazing dates and facts originated:
"Water Service Line Inspection Flyer"
<https://www.ebmud.com/download_file/force/22331/2926?Water_Service_Line_Inspection_Flyer.pdf>
"... if customer-owned plumbing (for example, the customer house line)
is made of galvanized iron, some lead from the original lead service
line may still be present on the wall of the galvanized pipe. Small
quantities of this lead could be released back into the water over
time."

Note that this is only for water lines that had previously used pipes
and fixtures containing lead and which were later replaced with
un-leaded plumbing.

[Tim R]

Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.

[Tom Kunich]

You just cannot keep yourself from telling me about MY house can you? It never occurs to you just how stupid that is such as every other thing you've commented on. The sheer ignorance of your comments is watched by everyone that happens to pass this group and after reading you they move on figuring this group is made up of people that call themselves engineers that never worked as engineers. Why do you insist in looking like a loud mouthed fool? Tell us all again how the land behind the dam on Cull Canyon didn't fill up with mud! Tell us again that I'm not wealthy and you're not on welfare. You are a stupid fool and the only one on your side is Flunky who suddenly developed a wife when I said that he was reacting the same way that the queers responded when I was interviewing them as they died with AIDS.

[Tom Kunich]

Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas, heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric lights and a fully gas stove.

[Frank Krygowski]

Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
un-piped cold air returns.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

+1
The usual forced air system has floor return vents.

[Tom Kunich]

On those floor vents usually there is only one pipe. Pipes were expensive. So the steam rose either to those air vents where there was a heat exchanger beneath the floor or to a radiator which usually was a two pipe system. But could be one pipe. My distant relation was a carpenter and showed my father how to expand our 600 square foot home into a 1200 square foot home. They talked about changing from that POS floor heater but never got around to it. That house is still there. Though they built a semi-freeway behind it where the creek used to be. They rerouted the creek down the middle of the route to the new Oakland Airport. There are paved bike trails out there that we ride in the winter. It is 25 or so miles out to Bay Farm Island and back. All of the Salt Marsh has been filled in and Bay Farm Island has been greatly expanded for industrial sites and a very large amount of homes and condos.

[Tom Kunich]

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1

[Radey Shouman]

My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.

Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.

> apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
> be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
> heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
> efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
> child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
> coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
> be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
> flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
> long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
> lights and a fully gas stove.

--

[Tom Kunich]

Well, my gas central heating is very noisy and usually wakes me up at 5 am when it turns on. But then a gas boiler is usually located away from the home center.

[AMuzi]

The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.

[Tom Kunich]

1882?? Did James Monroe live there?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>1882?? Did James Monroe live there?

James Monroe died in 1831:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.

[Frank Krygowski]

Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.

Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/14/2024 6:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and squeaks of
> pipe expansion as they warm?  In an 1882 steam building I rented for a
> long while, the gas (formerly coal) boiler was not all that loud but the
> pipe movements were.

One of the more memorable concerts I attended was of a consort or group
performing medieval music in a beautiful old chapel at a small college.
The group entered in a solemn procession with lights down low, then
played ancient music on replicas of period instruments.

It was lovely except for the _extremely_ loud clanking coming from the
steam heat system! It was like random percussion inserted by a madman.

Afterwards we went up and talked to the musicians. Many of them were in
extremely grumpy moods because of the effect of heating system noise on
their concert.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Zen Cycle]

Hey Jeff,
Did you happen to notice throughout that triggered rant he doesn't make
any comments actually relevant to your post?

> You are a stupid fool and the only one on your side is Flunky who suddenly developed a wife when I said that he was reacting the same way that the queers responded when I was interviewing them as they died with AIDS.

lol...there it is!
the fact that your claim of ever interviewed any homosexuals with AIDS
is a complete lie notwithstanding:

Jutelist#1 Repeatedly accusing people of being "queer". He's a closeted
queer, afraid people will find out.
--
Add xx to reply

[Tim R]

Frank,
In hindsight I'm sure you're right.

This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.

My bad, and good catch.

[Tom Kunich]

Liebermann, do you have to show your absolute ignorance every time you post? 69 isn't close enough to 75 to suit you? There is a story on Yahoo mentioning the century old B52. Why don't you write them and tell them that the oldest now retired B52A was built in 1952? If you wish to look like a really useless fool actually go completely public with you shit face comments?

When you're so ignorant as to not know comments that are not supposed to be taken literal, you should at least show the entire world and not just the members of rec.bicycles.tech.

[Tom Kunich]

Krygowski, you've been in houses with cold air vents in the floor. Floor vents carry hot air up.

[Roger Merriman]

My parents house which is reasonably large used to have a coal boiler, and
certainly the 1st time you engaged the pump ie turned the heating on would
get some mild pipe noises as it warmed up.

The range they have now doesn’t do this, mind you the house is much warmer
due to insulation ie double glazing which has stopped the house cooling so
much in some rooms and some bits of pipes.

Ie heating shouldn’t be clanking etc all the time, some heating up noises
as pipes expanded etc fine.

Roger Merriman

[Zen Cycle]

more triggered responses from kunich

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:43:29 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Hey Jeff,
>Did you happen to notice throughout that triggered rant he doesn't make
>any comments actually relevant to your post?

Yes, I noticed. That's one reason I didn't respond. He often
responds to unfamiliar and uncomfortable topics with radical changes
in topic laced with amazing facts, political dogma and personal
insults.

Another reason is that I currently don't have much time to waste on
Tom's limited inventory of chronically repetitive topics. I'm still
recovering from the effects of 5 days without PG&E electricity and
don't have much time to waste.

Also, Tom has recently begun deflecting criticism by simply accusing
the accuser of the same things that Tom was accused of doing. This is
highly boring and I don't want any part of such a childish exchange.
So, I just read occasionally, and comment when sufficiently inspired.

My comments about the Tom's residential plumbing and district water
supply were intended to be helpful. There's a tiny chance that Tom
might be telling the truth and really does have water quality
problems. At best, his comments were exaggerated, such as stones and
gravel from the faucet. Whether he profits from my hasty research is
his decision.

I also chose not to mention the East Bay water treatment plant
situation because I didn't have the time to do the necessary research.
It seems that two of his water district's treatment plants are "out of
service".
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-data>
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-faqs>
Upper San Leandro water treatment plant will be out of service until
about 2026:
<https://www.ebmud.com/about-us/construction-and-maintenance/construction-my-neighborhood/upper-san-leandro-water-treatment-plant-maintenance-reliability-and-chemical-systems-safety-improvements-project>
There will be less of this type of postings from me if Tom continues
to ignore them and replies with personalized insults and political
dogma.

[John B.]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:16:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

And Tommy gets it wrong yet again.
The first YB-52 to fly was on 15 April 1952; however this was during
the Boeing devotement and testing of the airplane, prior to acceptance
by the Air Force.. The first B-52B accepted by the Air Force was not
until 18 March 1954.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:

Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
simply grates in the first floor ceiling.

There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
located.

Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
floor.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

My 1904 house had warm air ducts a foot off the floor on the
walls and (fewer) cold returns in the floors.

[Roger Merriman]

Seems to be a North American thing, ie to use warm air ducts rather than
radiators which is the norm in Europe, do get heated floors in some as
well.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

I much prefer steam or recirculating hot water but changing
a house's heating format is not cheap enough to be an
impulsive upgrade!

[Tom Kunich]

You are a stinking piece of shit that can't even READ your own references - THE SOLIDS in El Sobrante are over the top and in San Leandro it says "Out of Service" which means that they are NOT supplying water but that San Leandro is supplying their OWN from the muddy East Bay Reservoir and Lake Chabot. When you fucking know absolutely nothing why do you continue on? Calling my Yacht Club and asking personal questions about me and being rebuffed isn't enough? You can't take a hint? 69 years isn't close enough to 75 you mindless fucking idiot. As I said, you stinking sack of shit, Yahoo claimed that B52's were a century old. Yet the oldest B52 that have been out of service over 20 years were manufactured in 1952. Let us all see your posting to them that they don't know what they're talking about.

The problem with you are you are a complete and utter failure and everyone knows it so you're trying to prove the whole world wrong by proving them right.

Flunky proved himself wrong and then you believe that it proves him right? You two are so screwed up that the world is laughing at you and you refuse to hear it.

[Zen Cycle]

On 2/15/2024 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
<snipped Jeffs post>>

> You are a stinking piece of shit that can't even READ your own references - THE SOLIDS in El Sobrante are over the top and in San Leandro it says "Out of Service" which means that they are NOT supplying water but that San Leandro is supplying their OWN from the muddy East Bay Reservoir and Lake Chabot. When you fucking know absolutely nothing why do you continue on? Calling my Yacht Club and asking personal questions about me and being rebuffed isn't enough? You can't take a hint? 69 years isn't close enough to 75 you mindless fucking idiot.

Triggered tommy - Too bad your rant is only confirming what Jeff wrote:
"It seems that two of [toms] water district's treatment plants are "out
of service""

> As I said, you stinking sack of shit, Yahoo claimed that B52's were a century old. Yet the oldest B52 that have been out of service over 20 years were manufactured in 1952. Let us all see your posting to them that they don't know what they're talking about.

Jeff didn't make any claims about B-52s.

> The problem with you are you are a complete and utter failure and everyone knows it so you're trying to prove the whole world wrong by proving them right.

He isn't trying to prove the whole world wrong. He is rather good at
proving you wrong though.

>
> Flunky proved himself wrong and then you believe that it proves him right?

lol...do tell tommy, how did I 'prove myself wrong'?

> You two are so screwed up that the world is laughing at you and you refuse to hear it.

It's you the world is laughing at tommy. Yes, the world is against you -
you personally. Be afraid.

[Tom Kunich]

I did another 35 miles this morning and stopped at a Starbucks. That building used to be a bank and has a two story ceiling. I'm sitting there drinking my coffee and looking up and on the second story is a gas central heating unit and the hot air ducts. They are pointing horizontal on the second story They pulled the ceiling off of the bank and all of the hot air goes to the top of the building. This is what happens when you use illegal aliens to do all of your work because the experienced American companies have been chased out of the state with the communist government here.

Now Janet Yellen is attempting to do the same thing with the Federal government with her claim that billionaires should be charged for non-realized income. As if most Americans can't see that as aimed directly at the working people. First you let that happen to billionaires, then millionaires and then people living on social security.

[John B.]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 12:58:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lets have a little proof here. To my knowledge the first B-52's
accepted for use by the Air Force weren't until 1955'

As you seem to be saying something different how about a little proof
that you aren't lying again.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/15/2024 3:58 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> ... THE SOLIDS in El Sobrante are over the top and in San Leandro it says "Out of Service" which means that they are NOT supplying water but that San Leandro is supplying their OWN from the muddy East Bay Reservoir and Lake Chabot.

I'm amazed that the water quality at Tom's house is so bad he's got
stones in his faucet, yet he hasn't mentioned contacting the water
company (isn't there an 800 number?), filing a complaint, publicizing it
via news reporters or even letters to an editor. Reporters love that stuff!

Why complain so loudly on a (purportedly) bicycle technical discussion
group, yet not make enough noise locally to get the problem fixed?

Better yet, why not move out of that hellhole?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Thank you for the right wing rant, Tom. It's exactly as informative as
usual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

Water hammer in steam heating systems can be a problem, and the guys
with the experience to make it go away are almost all dead.

[AMuzi]

As The Last Guy, Mr Kunich would have to turn out the lights

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/05/21/5-charts-that-explain-the-california-and-bay-area-exodus/

[Frank Krygowski]

Paywall.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[zen cycle]

On 2/15/2024 9:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:

You'd think someone as rich as kunich would have moved out of the
liberal hellhole to somewhere more amenable to his politics and with
better infrastructure.

[Tim R]

Yes, mechanics who can work on actual steam (as opposed to hot water) systems are rare.
In particular you have to keep the traps functioning, and that isn't simple. That's one of the reasons we went away from steam where I worked. We had large steam boilers that served multiple buildings, and I don't think you could do that with hot water, at least not easily, so we had to retrofit hot water boilers into each building.

I have personally never seen steam in a residential house. Apartments, sure, but I doubt it happens anymore. In Wisconsin where I grew up almost everything was hot water and radiators. Heat pumps were just coming into vogue when I left, but most of the people I knew did not like being heated with lukewarm air, despite how well it worked.

[Zen Cycle]

Many years ago I owned a "triple decker" in Manchester New Hampshire - A
three story building with an apartment in each floor. These are very
common in the old New England mill towns, most built around 1900 or
shortly after, generally Fieldstone foundations and steam heat when they
were built. Ours still had a steam boiler in the basement. When the
house was built it was coal-fired but had been converted to oil long
before we bought it. The radiators did have a return, however, they
weren't single pipe. It worked rather well, heated up quickly when
called. I didn't have any issues with it for the duration I owned the house.

[AMuzi]

It's well reported elsewhere, title says it all.

[AMuzi]

My experience (gas fired, not your New England style oil)
exactly.

[Tom Kunich]

So as well as being incompetent as an engineer, you're incompetent even at reading english. But that is no surprise to anyone that makes the mistake of reading your stupid comments.

[Roger Merriman]

If true! I have skin in the game as you were or really knowledge of
California but media and click bate for example to doff Frank’s cap!
Yesterday briefly talking to the neighbour’s who where surprised that I had
my old Volvo as the London ULEZ (london wide or at least controlled by
london) has come in and the media has been full of horror stories.

Essentially it’s the slightly older diesel cars that have to pay the
charge, my really quite old Petrol is absolutely fine as are 95% of cars.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Unfortunately, people that vote Democrat are destroying their own lives. All you have to do is observe all of the Democrat states and cities to watch EXTREME crime and living conditions reaching as low as you can go. Frank lives in a bizarre all white neighborhood and has many times screamed that other people were racist. Liebermann could NOT earn a living as an EE in the hottest market for electronics in the whole world until the Democrats destroyed it. But he and Flunky tell each other how smart they are. According to these fools, all you have to do is contact the water company because they are so stupid that they don't even know what small stones in the water line are not part of water quality; purity or safety of the water itself is.

[Zen Cycle]

blah blah blah....All insult and no substance.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2024 8:17 AM, Tim R wrote:
>

> I have personally never seen steam in a residential house. Apartments, sure, but I doubt it happens anymore. In Wisconsin where I grew up almost everything was hot water and radiators. Heat pumps were just coming into vogue when I left, but most of the people I knew did not like being heated with lukewarm air, despite how well it worked.

About the comfort level of various heating systems: I've heard that many
people find radiant heat to be the most comfortable of all. I've had
only limited experience with it, but I did like it.

One extended family member put radiant panels in the ceiling when he
finished a basement room; and one place I worked had a natural gas
heated radiant pipe and reflector running the length of a huge
workspace, probably ten feet above the floor.

That latter place was poorly heated otherwise. I arranged to have my
desk placed under the hot pipe. I was comfortable there, but got chilly
if I moved only a few feet away from the pipe's "shadow."

OTOH, since my wife easily gets chilled, I once bought her a portable
radiant heat panel to put near her when she sat in her favorite living
room chair. As far as we could tell, it did nothing practical.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 12:58:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>THE SOLIDS in El Sobrante are over the top

Wrong. The table I posted shows that "Total Dissolved Solids" (TDS)
was measured at 157.53 mg/L in the Sobrante reversoir:
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-data>
TDS is everything small enough to pass through a 2 micron filter. The
number is derived from the conductivity of the water.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dissolved_solids>
You can measure your water TDS with one of these:
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=TDS+meter>

The ebmud.com article does not show the amount of solids, stones,
rocks, gravel, boulders, mud, fish and anything else you are allegedly
finding in your water. The table shows the amount of DISSOLVED
solids.

Hmmm... EBMUD? Possibly an appropriate acronym.

No yachts or B52's were harmed in writing this explanation.

>and in San Leandro it says "Out of Service" which means that they are NOT supplying water but that San Leandro is supplying their OWN from the muddy East Bay Reservoir and Lake Chabot.

(Insults, ranting and topic change ignored).

[Radey Shouman]

One-pipe steam does not have traps. It does have air vent valves, one
on every radiator and at least one for each supply loop. When the heat
is off the system fills with air, which must be vented. The air valves
are temperature controlled (I guess by a bimetal strip, but don't know),
and close when the temperature says "steam".

The valves do have to be replaced once in a while. I used to buy good
quality ones at the local hardware store, but at some point they
switched to made in China crap that almost immediately fail, so now I
have to mail order them.

> I have personally never seen steam in a residential house.
> Apartments, sure, but I doubt it happens anymore. In Wisconsin where
> I grew up almost everything was hot water and radiators. Heat pumps
> were just coming into vogue when I left, but most of the people I knew
> did not like being heated with lukewarm air, despite how well it
> worked.

Steam heat for houses used to be fairly common in New England, and there
is still a lot of it about. Some systems have been switched over to hot
water, sometimes re-using some radiators and piping. One-pipe steam
heat was very convenient back when buildings were not electrified -- it
works without pumps or blowers, just shovel in the coal when you want
heat.

[Tom Kunich]

I think that it is merely the age of the building. There are New York style apartment buildings in San Francisco and they too use steam head. They were all converted from coal to gas since I suppose that was cheaper than putting in stack scrubbers.

[Tom Kunich]

On Fri Feb 16 00:16:19 2024 John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:16:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:21:30?PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:19:58?PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

> >>
> >> >> On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
> >> >> squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
> >> >> building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
> >> >> boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.

> >> >1882?? Did James Monroe live there?
> >> James Monroe died in 1831:
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
> >> If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.

> >> --
> >> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> >> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> >> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> >> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >

> >Liebermann, do you have to show your absolute ignorance every time you post? 69 isn't close enough to 75 to suit you? There is a story on Yahoo mentioning the century old B52. Why don't you write them and tell them that the oldest now retired B52A was built in 1952? If you wish to look like a really useless fool actually go completely public with you shit face comments?
> >
> >When you're so ignorant as to not know comments that are not supposed to be taken literal, you should at least show the entire world and not just the members of rec.bicycles.tech.
>
> And Tommy gets it wrong yet again.
> The first YB-52 to fly was on 15 April 1952; however this was during
> the Boeing devotement and testing of the airplane, prior to acceptance
> by the Air Force.. The first B-52B accepted by the Air Force was not
> until 18 March 1954.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
>



Sticking up for Liebermann? In fact ALL of the B52B's were updated from B52A's and you would know that if you worked on them. ALL of the B52D's were updated from B52C's constructed in 1954 and 1955. Same with E's and F's in 1956 and 57 , then G's and H's which were ALL improvements of the original A's such as slightly changing the tailshape after it would break off from metal fatique. Now the H's which were improvements of the accepted H's are about to obtain an engine improvement which is the first such and will allow faster take-offs and a bomb bay fitted with missle launchers so that they can stand off 150 miles from their targets. The bombing and navigation systems are now so automated that they no longer need the lower floor and the bomber, ECO and tail gunner are all in the pilot compartment. This leaves room to expand the fuel tanks in the fusilage.

I said here that the Norden Bomb Sight was a POS and interviews with surviving bombers of B17's said exactly what I did.

John, don't say things you don't know about. Looking shit up on the internet gives you false data 9 time out of 10. And your repeating it as if it were fact juwst makes you look silly. The FIRST one or two B2's were acceptance aircraft but they were already in full production and their serial numbers show that.

[Tom Kunich]

On Wed Feb 14 22:53:53 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On 2/14/2024 6:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >
> > The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and squeaks of
> > pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam building I rented for a
> > long while, the gas (formerly coal) boiler was not all that loud but the
> > pipe movements were.
>

> One of the more memorable concerts I attended was of a consort or group
> performing medieval music in a beautiful old chapel at a small college.
> The group entered in a solemn procession with lights down low, then
> played ancient music on replicas of period instruments.
>
> It was lovely except for the _extremely_ loud clanking coming from the
> steam heat system! It was like random percussion inserted by a madman.
>
> Afterwards we went up and talked to the musicians. Many of them were in
> extremely grumpy moods because of the effect of heating system noise on
> their concert.
>

> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>



That's too bad. I think that steam sustems were often set well away from their buildings to prevent that sort of noise. Remember that steam is 100C and a hot room is 40C so there's plenty of room to play with the system.

[Tom Kunich]

On Wed Feb 14 19:36:01 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 4:09:05 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:

> > > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> > > >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> > > >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> > > >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> > > >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > > > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> > > Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> > > very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> > > moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> > > problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> > > un-piped cold air returns.)
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski

> > The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1
>
> Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.
>
> Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!
>
> - Frank Krygowski


That was not meant as an insult but information. Hot air and steam are two entirely different things. Since you don't know the difference - you don't get pipe "hammer" from forced air heating.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thu Feb 15 20:20:44 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> > On 2/15/2024 11:27 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R

> >> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:

> >>> Frank,
> >>> In hindsight I'm sure you're right.
> >>>
> >>> This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust
> >>> to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very
> >>> large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from
> >>> a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a
> >>> sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.
> >>>
> >>> My bad, and good catch.
> >>
> >>
> >> Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
> >> method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
> >> the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
> >> in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
> >> simply grates in the first floor ceiling.
> >>
> >> There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
> >> located.
> >>
> >> Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
> >> floor.
> >
> > My 1904 house had warm air ducts a foot off the floor on the
> > walls and (fewer) cold returns in the floors.
>
> Seems to be a North American thing, ie to use warm air ducts rather than
> radiators which is the norm in Europe, do get heated floors in some as
> well.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

I think it is just age because New York ans San Francisco appartment buildings all had radiators and the older buildings were designed by European engineers.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thu Feb 15 21:17:04 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/15/2024 4:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Only you would call a clear description of some really scewed up engineering as a rant. Liebermann would tell us that it was the correct way to do things and Flunky would agree with you because he is in love.