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Tom Kunich

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Jan 29, 2024, 4:55:20 PMJan 29
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If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.

And I have replaced it with a Specialized Allez aluminum frameset. The wheelset I have for it isn't as light as the Bontrager X-Lite but not bad either. Since I have the complete Dura Ace 10 speed group and a long arm 105 rear derailleur they will be set up identical and I will only have the BMC with a manual Campy 12 speed group.

The Allez was so cheap that the shipping and sales tax was more expensive so the Serotta is no loss.But I expect the man with the freewheel bike to have something to say about changing bikes since he is riding his original 30 pound lead weight.

It should be comical. "Oh you bad person, using more than one bike and all of them under 20 lbs." But it is fine that he lives in a place that is 96% white. And he has to "prepare" himself to venture out of the safety of an all-white neighborhood. Ohio is not a safe state. But from the safety of Poland,OH, he can pretend it is.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jan 29, 2024, 8:59:19 PMJan 29
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On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.

Nice:
<https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
Last bicycle at bottom of the page.

How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
weight limit.

08/08/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
"The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
(209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
"Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
of 95kg."

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

AMuzi

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Jan 29, 2024, 9:08:23 PMJan 29
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In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg

Not every day but not unknown either.

(anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
carbon too)

--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom Kunich

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Jan 30, 2024, 11:23:40 AMJan 30
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Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.

AMuzi

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Jan 30, 2024, 11:49:52 AMJan 30
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> Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.

Sand blasting by a guy not familiar with bicycles and with
coarse media can also cut holes through bicycle frame tubes,
remove lug edge detail.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jan 30, 2024, 1:05:07 PMJan 30
to
I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?

I also question whether the holes in the two photos are sufficiently
large to be considered dangerous to ride. Offhand, they seem to be
smaller than the holes used to install water bottle cages. 5mm bolt
in a 7mm diameter Rivnut hole. I wouldn't install a Rivnut, but I
would certainly consider brazing (not welding) the hole closed. Of
course, borescope inspection of the area around the hole and
ultrasonic metal thickness testing will determine if welding is a
suitable repair.

I also question the use of sand blasting. On an ultra light frame,
where material thickness and avoiding stress risers is important, any
manner of metal removal could be a problem. Sand also leaves a matt
finish which could look bad when painted. It should have been soda
blasted, which leaves a smoother finish. Soda blasting is easier to
clean up, is ecologically correct and provides a smoother finish that
doesn't require much polishing. Unlike sand, (baking) soda can be
dissolved in water, filtered, recrystalized and reused. A better way
would be to use paint remover but this is California, where the VOC
ban has reduced the available paint stripper chemicals to a few that
barely work.

"Don’t sandblast the powder!"
<https://www.kellybike.com/dont-sandblast-powder/>
"For those of you who are sending your bike out to be refinished
(powder or wet) make damn sure that your painter or powdercoating
person understands that your frame is of thin metal and should be
chemically stripped - not sand blasted."

>(anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
>carbon too)

Looks like the forks and seat stays are carbon fiber, but the top tube
and the rest of the frame is steel:
<https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
<https://www.sefiles.net/merchant/190/images/site/fierteti05.jpg>
I don't know the standard procedure but I suspect that if one major
defect is found in the top tube, it might be a good idea to inspect
the rest of the frame for similar or related defects.

AMuzi

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Jan 30, 2024, 1:28:13 PMJan 30
to
Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
residue!

There is no paint remover outside California either. After
two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
ingredient, methylene chloride.

In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
actually open points. That's a tube replacement.

p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
Kunich's specific current ride.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jan 30, 2024, 1:31:58 PMJan 30
to
On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 08:23:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did?

Why does someone who chronically gets everything wrong continue to
proclaim his expertise in literally everything?

Incidentally, I've noticed that there's a relationship between giving
advice and accepting advice. Those who do not accept advice generally
have great difficulties trying to work around the embarrassment of
admitting that they don't know everything. That's you, Tom. Have you
fixed the minor typo in the current version of your resume where you
confused XT with XP? You probably never will because you didn't find
the mistake while I did. Speaking only for myself, I avoid taking
advice from someone who doesn't know how to accept advice (or who
doesn't know how to admit that he is wrong).

Incidentally, I've had some bad experiences with automotive
sandblasting and removing Bondo autobody filler (styrene). When
working with thin metal, I've had better luck with a propane torch.
The trick is to not overheat the plastic. It will burn quite nicely.

"Bondo Removal"
<https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/bondo-removal/>

Jeff Liebermann

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Jan 30, 2024, 2:23:02 PMJan 30
to
On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:28:11 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
>current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
>residue!

I hadn't heard of that, but it seems like a good idea.

In around 1980, we had a local paint and sand blasting shop. The
owner invented a method of separating the used blasting sand from the
paint and metal particles. It used a centrifuge and a few coarse
filters. It wasn't very good at removing metal dust and rust, but
worked well for removing paint. I have no idea what happened to it.

>There is no paint remover outside California either. After
>two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
>and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
>ingredient, methylene chloride.

Someone I barely remember worked in a furniture stripper ship. He had
protective clothing and breathing apparatus that resembled an old hard
hat diving suit. One day, we noticed that he hadn't appeared at the
usual gathering place for several months. Something had gone wrong
with the suit and the methylene chloride probably killed him.

>In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
>remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
>actually open points. That's a tube replacement.

In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage.

>p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
>Kunich's specific current ride.

I was commenting on Tom's latest bicycle problem.

I'm still wondering about the use of Bondo on an ultra light frame.
The frame had previously been painted by someone who knew about the
hold and used Bondo to "fix" the problem. I don't see the logic in
going through all that trouble, just to unload a frame that needs a
new top tube. The original listing was Sept 25, 2023. Unfortunately,
it disappeared from eBay sold items archive:

"Serotta Fierte 58cm - 60cm frame, steel w/carbon stays. Needs
refinishing":
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/394747369993>
The listing ended yesterday, Mon Sep 25 at 2:35 AM.

Also:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/fWspzUiZ_po/m/XGruj9XQAAAJ>
Oddly, it says "Needs refinishing", which suggests that it had been
heavily used and probably had NOT been repainted. Also, the seller
didn't notice the hole and willing to risk riding it. In order to
explain the presence of Bondo under the paint, the seller would have
had to paint the frame AFTER the Bondo was applied and specifically to
make the frame sellable on eBay. Painting to hide the Bondo and
"needs refinishing" makes no sense.

My guess(tm) is that the alleged hole in the frame and Bondo were
fabrications intended to make Tom appear to be a victim. For what
purpose, I have no idea.

sms

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Jan 30, 2024, 3:05:06 PMJan 30
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On 1/30/2024 10:04 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
> haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
> My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
> was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?

No, you want more rust, or at least the appearance of rust.

I recently fixed up my daughters old UCSC bike, an old Specialized
Expedition hybrid (not the classic Expedition touring bicycle). It had
been pretty abused while in Santa Cruz, with a lot of scraped off paint.

I bought can of spray-on "rust effect" "Rust EFFECT spray creates the
illusion of rust and oxidation" and tried to make it look even worse by
spraying the areas where the paint had been scraped off. It will be
parked outside in San Francisco. We'll see how long the bike lasts
before being stripped or stolen, but it looks pretty awful, other than
the new tires and new pedals. It lasted four years in Santa Cruz pretty
well, in fact the only part stolen was half of a Mirrycle mirror
(wondering what the thief did with that).

Tom Kunich

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Jan 30, 2024, 3:17:06 PMJan 30
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It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.

Tom Kunich

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Jan 30, 2024, 3:23:16 PMJan 30
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On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 12:05:06 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 10:04 AM, Jeff Lieber> > I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
Leaving a bike out to be stolen is a unique idea. As for Liebermann with his usual stupiddity = when there is a hole in the tubing and free rust rattling around inside of the top tube one might get the idea that there was some damage if he was capable of putting two thoughts together.

I

AMuzi

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Jan 30, 2024, 3:29:50 PMJan 30
to
I once found (heard it first!) a pinhole leak in a steam
pipe in the dead of winter. I put a ball bearing in it and a
stainless hose clamp around the pipe which lasted until the
end of my lease. Seemed like a better idea than the endless
conversation with the landlord, long repair process with no
heat and the frightening possibility of a building inspector.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jan 30, 2024, 4:08:38 PMJan 30
to
On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:23:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>As for Liebermann with his usual stupiddity = when there is a hole in the tubing and free rust rattling around inside of the top tube one might get the idea that there was some damage if he was capable of putting two thoughts together.

I see. You bought the frame on eBay in Sept 2023. You left it
hanging around for 4 months, didn't inspect the it, and never noticed
the rust hole or "free rust rattling around inside". You then sent it
out to be sand blasted and painted. Only then did you discover the
Bondo and rust problem. You must be terribly non-observant and
amazingly trusting of the eBay vendor to receive the frame without
inspecting it. Also strange is that the previous owner would close
the hole with Bondo without cleaning out the "free rust rattling
around inside" the top tube.

If you're going to lie, at least make your lies reasonable, logical
and believable. As your self appointed personal fact checker, you're
making this far too easy. It's also becoming boring because
everything you write seems to be a lie. Maybe try something less
creative and closer to the truth.

Perhaps some light reading will help:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+lie+effectively>

"Top Ten Secrets of Effective Liars"
<https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/extreme-fear/201005/top-ten-secrets-effective-liars>
"How to lie and get away with it"

Your biggest problem is "#5 Keep your facts straight". You're
expected to use known facts to substantiate your lies. That doesn't
work when your substantiating facts are also lies. Think about how
advertisements for miracle cures, amazing inventions, and magic
remedies work. They all start with a series of generally accepted and
believable facts. Once the viewer is hypnotized into agreement by a
endless succession of agreeable facts, the announcer casually adds an
amazing claim on behalf of his sponsor, and immediately continues with
more agreeable facts. The amazing claim is the payload and all the
facts are of little importance. You can probably structure your
"amazing facts" presentations to follow something similar. I could
offer some specific suggestions, but since you have chronically
ignored my suggestions, I'll save myself the effort.

Gone to Safeway for some pre-storm panic shopping. The weather
forecast looks like the beginning of 40 days and 40 nights of rain.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jan 30, 2024, 4:17:27 PMJan 30
to
On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.

Why are you powder coated the bicycle? Powder coating is much heavier
than ordinary paint. With an ultralight bicycle, every milligram is
precious.

<https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=402>
"normal paint adds about 35-45 grams to a frame only( 50-54 cm.)
powder coat will be 2-3X that"

John B.

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Jan 30, 2024, 4:31:58 PMJan 30
to
On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 08:23:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
I hope that when you say "sand Blasting" you actually mean something
different - "Bead Blasting" for actual, as "sand" blasting is a rather
severe method of cleaning, especially on something like thin steel
tubing. Not normally ever used on aircraft parts, for example.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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Jan 30, 2024, 11:55:53 PMJan 30
to
On 1/30/2024 4:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.
>
> Why are you powder coated the bicycle? Powder coating is much heavier
> than ordinary paint. With an ultralight bicycle, every milligram is
> precious.
>
> <https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=402>
> "normal paint adds about 35-45 grams to a frame only( 50-54 cm.)
> powder coat will be 2-3X that"

True, in my experience. I recently had my touring bike powder coated. It
came back several ounces heavier. I thought I'd written down the weight
difference, but I couldn't find it right now.

Not that it matters much to me. If I want less weight, I'll start with
my body. I'm lighter now than in the past few years, but I'm still
heavier than I was at my fastest, years ago.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tim R

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Jan 31, 2024, 8:08:30 AMJan 31
to
Genius repair solution, how did you think of that?
Must have been a fairly low pressure steam system, but still.

We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

AMuzi

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Jan 31, 2024, 9:26:21 AMJan 31
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Relatively modern (1960s?) gas system upgraded from coal
(new firebox & boiler, same piping and radiators) at 8~12 psi.

Frank Krygowski

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Jan 31, 2024, 11:07:31 AMJan 31
to
On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>
> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.

It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich

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Feb 12, 2024, 2:42:42 PMFeb 12
to
As you say, there's little difference though the one pipe system usually used copper pipes and lasted a long time while the two pipe system was earlier and used iron pipes and rusted out. Air Force barracks used coal and steam heat.

Radey Shouman

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Feb 13, 2024, 4:14:00 PMFeb 13
to
Properly maintained one- and two-pipe steam systems use black iron pipe.
The temperature swings in a steam system are large enough to cause
soldered copper joints to eventually fail.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 13, 2024, 4:58:35 PMFeb 13
to
As I said, modern systems use copper pipe. The temperature swing is at MOST 100 degrees C and that will not cause a proper solder jointed joint to fail since the melting point of solder is about 183 C. Also the latest radiators are quite efficient at getting ride of heat and that means that in single pipe systems there is a wall of water below the steam point on the tube during operation. Iron pipes are heavy and eventually rust through. My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.

Radey Shouman

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Feb 13, 2024, 5:07:15 PMFeb 13
to
Not much new in steam radiators, most buy them used for better quality,
lower price, and nicer appearance. Copper joints fail due to work
hardening over time.

Copper is certainly better for water pipes, if you have black iron or,
especially, galvanized you should replace them. For steam heat copper
is wrong.

Jeff Liebermann

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Feb 13, 2024, 8:57:07 PMFeb 13
to
On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:58:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.

Zillow says your house was built in 1955 which makes it 69 years old.
Other sites (Realtor.com, Trulia, Spokio, etc) all show either 1955 or
1956.

"Galvanized iron pipes"
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/galvanized-iron-pipes>

You might want to test for lead contamination, which might explain
where your amazing dates and facts originated:
"Water Service Line Inspection Flyer"
<https://www.ebmud.com/download_file/force/22331/2926?Water_Service_Line_Inspection_Flyer.pdf>
"... if customer-owned plumbing (for example, the customer house line)
is made of galvanized iron, some lead from the original lead service
line may still be present on the wall of the galvanized pipe. Small
quantities of this lead could be released back into the water over
time."

Note that this is only for water lines that had previously used pipes
and fixtures containing lead and which were later replaced with
un-leaded plumbing.

Tim R

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Feb 14, 2024, 8:10:14 AMFeb 14
to
Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 14, 2024, 11:13:19 AMFeb 14
to
You just cannot keep yourself from telling me about MY house can you? It never occurs to you just how stupid that is such as every other thing you've commented on. The sheer ignorance of your comments is watched by everyone that happens to pass this group and after reading you they move on figuring this group is made up of people that call themselves engineers that never worked as engineers. Why do you insist in looking like a loud mouthed fool? Tell us all again how the land behind the dam on Cull Canyon didn't fill up with mud! Tell us again that I'm not wealthy and you're not on welfare. You are a stupid fool and the only one on your side is Flunky who suddenly developed a wife when I said that he was reacting the same way that the queers responded when I was interviewing them as they died with AIDS.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 14, 2024, 11:29:08 AMFeb 14
to
Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas, heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric lights and a fully gas stove.

Frank Krygowski

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Feb 14, 2024, 11:33:15 AMFeb 14
to
Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
un-piped cold air returns.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

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Feb 14, 2024, 11:49:09 AMFeb 14
to
+1
The usual forced air system has floor return vents.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 14, 2024, 11:49:19 AMFeb 14
to
On those floor vents usually there is only one pipe. Pipes were expensive. So the steam rose either to those air vents where there was a heat exchanger beneath the floor or to a radiator which usually was a two pipe system. But could be one pipe. My distant relation was a carpenter and showed my father how to expand our 600 square foot home into a 1200 square foot home. They talked about changing from that POS floor heater but never got around to it. That house is still there. Though they built a semi-freeway behind it where the creek used to be. They rerouted the creek down the middle of the route to the new Oakland Airport. There are paved bike trails out there that we ride in the winter. It is 25 or so miles out to Bay Farm Island and back. All of the Salt Marsh has been filled in and Bay Farm Island has been greatly expanded for industrial sites and a very large amount of homes and condos.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 14, 2024, 4:09:05 PMFeb 14
to
On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1

Radey Shouman

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Feb 14, 2024, 5:11:01 PMFeb 14
to
My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.

Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.

> apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
> be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
> heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
> efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
> child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
> coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
> be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
> flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
> long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
> lights and a fully gas stove.

--

Tom Kunich

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Feb 14, 2024, 6:08:13 PMFeb 14
to
Well, my gas central heating is very noisy and usually wakes me up at 5 am when it turns on. But then a gas boiler is usually located away from the home center.

AMuzi

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Feb 14, 2024, 6:19:58 PMFeb 14
to
The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 14, 2024, 7:46:17 PMFeb 14
to
1882?? Did James Monroe live there?

Jeff Liebermann

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Feb 14, 2024, 8:21:30 PMFeb 14
to
On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>1882?? Did James Monroe live there?

James Monroe died in 1831:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Feb 14, 2024, 10:36:03 PMFeb 14
to
Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.

Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Feb 14, 2024, 10:53:58 PMFeb 14
to
On 2/14/2024 6:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and squeaks of
> pipe expansion as they warm?  In an 1882 steam building I rented for a
> long while, the gas (formerly coal) boiler was not all that loud but the
> pipe movements were.

One of the more memorable concerts I attended was of a consort or group
performing medieval music in a beautiful old chapel at a small college.
The group entered in a solemn procession with lights down low, then
played ancient music on replicas of period instruments.

It was lovely except for the _extremely_ loud clanking coming from the
steam heat system! It was like random percussion inserted by a madman.

Afterwards we went up and talked to the musicians. Many of them were in
extremely grumpy moods because of the effect of heating system noise on
their concert.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Zen Cycle

unread,
Feb 15, 2024, 7:43:35 AMFeb 15
to
Hey Jeff,
Did you happen to notice throughout that triggered rant he doesn't make
any comments actually relevant to your post?


> You are a stupid fool and the only one on your side is Flunky who suddenly developed a wife when I said that he was reacting the same way that the queers responded when I was interviewing them as they died with AIDS.

lol...there it is!
the fact that your claim of ever interviewed any homosexuals with AIDS
is a complete lie notwithstanding:

Jutelist#1 Repeatedly accusing people of being "queer". He's a closeted
queer, afraid people will find out.
--
Add xx to reply

Tim R

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Feb 15, 2024, 9:37:29 AMFeb 15
to
Frank,
In hindsight I'm sure you're right.

This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.

My bad, and good catch.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 15, 2024, 10:16:35 AMFeb 15
to
Liebermann, do you have to show your absolute ignorance every time you post? 69 isn't close enough to 75 to suit you? There is a story on Yahoo mentioning the century old B52. Why don't you write them and tell them that the oldest now retired B52A was built in 1952? If you wish to look like a really useless fool actually go completely public with you shit face comments?

When you're so ignorant as to not know comments that are not supposed to be taken literal, you should at least show the entire world and not just the members of rec.bicycles.tech.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 15, 2024, 10:20:47 AMFeb 15
to
Krygowski, you've been in houses with cold air vents in the floor. Floor vents carry hot air up.

Roger Merriman

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Feb 15, 2024, 11:39:57 AMFeb 15
to
My parents house which is reasonably large used to have a coal boiler, and
certainly the 1st time you engaged the pump ie turned the heating on would
get some mild pipe noises as it warmed up.

The range they have now doesn’t do this, mind you the house is much warmer
due to insulation ie double glazing which has stopped the house cooling so
much in some rooms and some bits of pipes.

Ie heating shouldn’t be clanking etc all the time, some heating up noises
as pipes expanded etc fine.

Roger Merriman

Zen Cycle

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Feb 15, 2024, 12:04:05 PMFeb 15
to
more triggered responses from kunich

Jeff Liebermann

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Feb 15, 2024, 12:10:52 PMFeb 15
to
On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:43:29 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Hey Jeff,
>Did you happen to notice throughout that triggered rant he doesn't make
>any comments actually relevant to your post?

Yes, I noticed. That's one reason I didn't respond. He often
responds to unfamiliar and uncomfortable topics with radical changes
in topic laced with amazing facts, political dogma and personal
insults.

Another reason is that I currently don't have much time to waste on
Tom's limited inventory of chronically repetitive topics. I'm still
recovering from the effects of 5 days without PG&E electricity and
don't have much time to waste.

Also, Tom has recently begun deflecting criticism by simply accusing
the accuser of the same things that Tom was accused of doing. This is
highly boring and I don't want any part of such a childish exchange.
So, I just read occasionally, and comment when sufficiently inspired.

My comments about the Tom's residential plumbing and district water
supply were intended to be helpful. There's a tiny chance that Tom
might be telling the truth and really does have water quality
problems. At best, his comments were exaggerated, such as stones and
gravel from the faucet. Whether he profits from my hasty research is
his decision.

I also chose not to mention the East Bay water treatment plant
situation because I didn't have the time to do the necessary research.
It seems that two of his water district's treatment plants are "out of
service".
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-data>
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-faqs>
Upper San Leandro water treatment plant will be out of service until
about 2026:
<https://www.ebmud.com/about-us/construction-and-maintenance/construction-my-neighborhood/upper-san-leandro-water-treatment-plant-maintenance-reliability-and-chemical-systems-safety-improvements-project>
There will be less of this type of postings from me if Tom continues
to ignore them and replies with personalized insults and political
dogma.

John B.

unread,
Feb 15, 2024, 12:16:26 PMFeb 15
to
On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:16:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
And Tommy gets it wrong yet again.
The first YB-52 to fly was on 15 April 1952; however this was during
the Boeing devotement and testing of the airplane, prior to acceptance
by the Air Force.. The first B-52B accepted by the Air Force was not
until 18 March 1954.

--
Cheers,

John B.