Paypal Danger

[Tom Kunich]

Paypal can recognize your computer. Not strictly by password but some other method that probably is the serial number of the computer or simply embedding a serial number when you register.

So why did Paypal allow some other computer to both make a false order and on a product that can be downloaded by anyone anywhere? This forces me to change my password and this in change forces me to use the automatic password memory in my computer which can be hacked whenever I am on-line. With dozens or perhaps even hundreds of accounts for everything from Google Groups to Gmail memorizing multiple passwords while taking medications which interfere with short term and therefore long term memories are just the sort of thing that passwords were supposed to avoid.

This is not the first time that Paypal has done this and they are automating their system to the point that you have a very difficult time trying to straighten mischarges out.


Pretty soon, on-line purchases will become extinct and we will be all the way back to cash only transactions.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 07:46:27 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Paypal can recognize your computer. Not strictly by password but some other method that probably is the serial number of the computer or simply embedding a serial number when you register.

Paypal uses and requires that cookies be enabled in your browser. No
magic required:
<https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/preview/how-to-turn-on-cookies>

>So why did Paypal allow some other computer to both make a false order and on a product that can be downloaded by anyone anywhere?

Paypal did it because you like being the center of attention.

>This forces me to change my password and this in change
>forces me to use the automatic password memory in my
>computer which can be hacked whenever I am on-line.

If you're worried about your passwords leaking to evil hackers like
me, then just write down your password list with pen and paper. Of
course, you'll need to enter the password every time you use the
service. Think of it as a choice between security and convenience.

Also, I strongly suggest you use an authenticator app on your
smartphone.

>With dozens or perhaps even hundreds of accounts for everything
>from Google Groups to Gmail memorizing multiple passwords while
>taking medications which interfere with short term and therefore
>long term memories are just the sort of thing that passwords
>were supposed to avoid.

I have about 450 passwords saved. Nobody expects me (or you) to
memorize that many passwords. We went through this when you
complained that you were having problems with your Yahoo account. I
offered some advice on the matter, which I'm sure you've ignored or
pretended not to read.

>This is not the first time that Paypal has done this and they
>are automating their system to the point that you have a very
>difficult time trying to straighten mischarges out.

Check your Paypal account for recurring, automatic, or subscription
payments. Some vendors are sneaky and sign you up for regular
payments when you only intended to use Paypal for a single payment.
<https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/recurring-payments-subscriptions>
I also have the "where the hell did this charge come from" problem.
Many vendors use 3rd party services to handle their money laundering,
errr... financial services. For example:
<https://fastspring.com>
You're unlikely to recognize the names of these services. Fortunately,
it's easy enough for you to track down the transaction and connect it
with the name of the service.
- Go to Settings.
- Click the Payments tab.
- Click Manage Automatic Payments.
- Select the merchant.
My Paypal account shows 13 merchants with which I have automatic
payments setup. I frequently check this list to make sure nothing has
been "accidentally" added, which unfortunately has happened to me. If
you see something that you don't recognize, don't delete the merchant.
Instead, disable the merchant and see who complains at the end of the
month. It might be something you use and need.

>Pretty soon, on-line purchases will become extinct and we
>will be all the way back to cash only transactions.

Unlikely. The world doesn't follow your examples.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/1/2023 10:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Pretty soon, on-line purchases will become extinct and we will be all the way back to cash only transactions.

Another Kunich prediction to save!

Tom, please tell us how soon this will happen, so we can check your
accuracy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 4/1/2023 9:54 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Check your Paypal account for recurring, automatic, or subscription
> payments. Some vendors are sneaky and sign you up for regular
> payments when you only intended to use Paypal for a single payment.

If I'm signing up for something that insists on "auto-renewal" I create
a separate PayPal account using a virtual credit card. After I pay for
the initial year I deactivate the virtual credit card.

If the vendor allows direct credit card payment it's easier since you
don't have PayPal in the middle but the last time I subscribed to a
magazine (owned by Conde Nast) for some reason the virtual credit card
would not work (I think that the payment processor has some way of
figuring out that it's a virtual credit card, or they don't like the
short expiration date, but PayPal doesn't care).

Very few credit cards still offer virtual credit card capability but The
Citibank Doublecash Mastercard still has that feature. It's an extremely
useful feature since you don't have to provide the underlying credit
card number to the vendor.

A true virtual credit card lets you generate individual numbers,
expiration dates, and CVVs and the virtual card is locked to the first
company that you use it with. You can set a spending limit (it used to
be a total spending limit but annoyingly it's now a daily spending
limit. You can deactivate the card at any time and then no further
charges are possible.

Note that the Apple Card does not have true virtual credit card
capability even though they advertise this feature.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Tom Kunich]

I see that it says that there 4 entries including my own but since I can't see them I expect they are being filtered out by the kill file. None of the people in the kill file would have even a passing idea of what is happening with Paypal so why are they commenting? Paypal returned my complaint by saying I did make this agreement and that they would stop the continuous charge. This is some sort of antivirus program and I use Bit Defender and am quite happy with it since I haven't had any problems since I started using it. But the initial charge is remaining.

Amazon pulled the same bullshit a couple of weeks ago - showed a charge on my account for one of these monthly charges for something I didn't even know what it was. What I am going to have to do is talk to a lawyer about these companies that are clearly committing fraud. And of a nature that it is such that the FBI wouldn't even talk to you about. Even though it is possible that they are doing this to millions of people making the overall value more than enough to warrant investigation.

If you feel that you should use Paypal because it protected your charge accounts you better think again because here is a clear case of Paypal assisting in fraud.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 3:51:03 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I see that it says that there 4 entries including my own but since I can't see them I expect they are being filtered out by the kill file.

lol....sure sparky...

> None of the people in the kill file would have even a passing idea of what is happening with Paypal so why are they commenting?

Right. The only people with any experience using paypal are the people you haven't "kill filed".

Paypal returned my complaint by saying I did make this agreement and that they would stop the continuous charge. This is some sort of antivirus program and I use Bit Defender and am quite happy with it since I haven't had any problems since I started using it. But the initial charge is remaining.
>
> Amazon pulled the same bullshit a couple of weeks ago - showed a charge on my account for one of these monthly charges for something I didn't even know what it was. What I am going to have to do is talk to a lawyer about these companies that are clearly committing fraud. And of a nature that it is such that the FBI wouldn't even talk to you about. Even though it is possible that they are doing this to millions of people making the overall value more than enough to warrant investigation.
>
> If you feel that you should use Paypal because it protected your charge accounts you better think again because here is a clear case of Paypal assisting in fraud.

Have you ever considered just not using paypal?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/1/2023 3:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> What I am going to have to do is talk to a lawyer about these companies that are clearly committing fraud.

Please, please do let us know what a lawyer tells you! It would be best
if you'd hire one to file suit, and let us know how it goes day by day.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 12:51:01 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I see that it says that there 4 entries including my own

How would you know how many "entries" there are when you can't even
see your own "entry"?

>but since I can't see them I expect they are being filtered
>out by the kill file.

Methinks this is the 5th time I've pointed out to you that you are
using Google Groups to read and post Usenet news and that Google
Groups does not have a kill file feature. You're lying.

As for there being 4 entries, how would you know that if you can't see
them?

>None of the people in the kill file would have even a passing
>idea of what is happening with Paypal

How would know about what your critics think if you don't read their
comments?

>so why are they commenting?

To make you the center of attention. Isn't that what you want? Why
else would you post your off topic personal problems if not to attract
attention?

>Paypal returned my complaint by saying I did make this agreement
>and that they would stop the continuous charge.

There's no such thing as a continuous charge. There's daily, weekly,
monthly, quarterly, bi-annual, and annual charges.

>This is some sort of antivirus program and I use Bit Defender
>and am quite happy with it since I haven't had any problems since
>I started using it. But the initial charge is remaining.

Bitdefender is a good program. However, it doesn't have a program
that checks if your online purchases include some kind of hidden
chargers.
<https://www.bitdefender.com>

Didn't you once claim to be using multiple anti-virus programs for
additional security? Ah, foundit:

(Jan 28, 2023)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/vJGANaPGi40/m/5pJpqhz0AgAJ>
"This appears to be a criminal enterprise site since it is blocked by
my three protection programs"

Running more than one active anti-virus program is a really bad idea.

>Amazon pulled the same bullshit a couple of weeks ago - showed
>a charge on my account for one of these monthly charges for something
>I didn't even know what it was. What I am going to have to do is talk
>to a lawyer about these companies that are clearly committing fraud.
>And of a nature that it is such that the FBI wouldn't even talk to
>you about. Even though it is possible that they are doing this to
>millions of people making the overall value more than enough to
>warrant investigation.

I'm sure a high priced lawyer and the FBI will be thrilled to hear
your amazing facts and accusations. Just think of how much attention
you will get when your stories hit the online news. Maybe starting
small by sending something to your favorite conservative news service,
such as one of these:
<https://blog.feedspot.com/conservative_political_blogs/>
and escalate if you get a good response. TownHall is #31.

>If you feel that you should use Paypal because it protected your
>charge accounts you better think again because here is a clear case
>of Paypal assisting in fraud.

We have been here recently, except with your credit card purchase
instead of Paypal:

(Mar 7, 2023)
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/t4Aoeb9mpO8/m/NjbHalw7AwAJ>
"You "sign" an online contract which nobody reads. In the fine print,
will be a clause indicating that you are signed up for some type of
service or product at a fairly high price, recurring charges or both.
When you try to cancel payment, your credit card company will rightly
claim that you initiated a valid transaction, which is not considered
fraud, and that the bank is not responsible for your actions."

I had that happen to me. My only way out was to obtain a new credit
card number. I'm not sure how Paypal handles such cases, but my guess
is that you can get away with minimal expenses, but only once.

Since you believe that we're going back to cash transactions, you
could always pay cash.

[Tom Kunich]

Funny thing happened on the way to this forum. My Bit Defender account was updated. It used my Deficit Card because when MacAfee failed to keep a virus out of my computer, the result was to open my credit card up to theft. So I had no credit card until delivery of my new card and I bought Bit Defender on my deficit card. My card of preference for Paypal is my credit card. So why was this Paddle sale on my deficit card? There is no way that they could have known of that other card number without hacking Paypal. The bank is not happy with PayPal and this was the same thing that happened with Amazon, so Paypal or Yahoo Email has been hacked to get this unused number.

But I'm sure that the Stupid 5 know that I am responsible for false charges winding up on my accounts that the bank is referring to legal authorities. How is it possible for these morons to make any comments about things they know nothing about? But that sums their lack of intelligence up. Gross ignorance by 5 people would be unlikely anywhere else but here.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

It's not nearly as as grossly ignorant as claiming you paid for something with a "deficit card" ......There's that "articulate polymath" tommy again!!

[sms]

On 4/3/2023 12:55 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> It's not nearly as as grossly ignorant as claiming you paid for something with a "deficit card" ......There's that "articulate polymath" tommy again!!

Deficit card, LOL.

The best option for paying for things that will auto-renew, that you
don't want to auto-renew, is one of the following:
a) use a virtual credit card to pay, then deactivate it.
b) create a Paypal account, pay for the product or service, then close
the Paypal account.
c) combine a & c which is what I had to do recently because the vendor
would not take a virtual credit card but would take PayPal.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 5:44:18 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 4/3/2023 12:55 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > It's not nearly as as grossly ignorant as claiming you paid for something with a "deficit card" ......There's that "articulate polymath" tommy again!!
> Deficit card, LOL.
>
> The best option for paying for things that will auto-renew, that you
> don't want to auto-renew, is one of the following:
> a) use a virtual credit card to pay, then deactivate it.
> b) create a Paypal account, pay for the product or service, then close
> the Paypal account.
> c) combine a & c which is what I had to do recently because the vendor
> would not take a virtual credit card but would take PayPal.
> --

I actually don't use paypal except in very rare instances - like the vendor doesn't take anything else and it's for something I can't get anywhere else. I think I've used it like 3 times in the past ten years. In any case, I've heard of paypal refusing to close accounts that had subscriptions linked to them, or is that just more kunich-esque griping?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 16:02:19 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I actually don't use paypal except in very rare instances - like
>the vendor doesn't take anything else and it's for something I
>can't get anywhere else. I think I've used it like 3 times in
>the past ten years. In any case, I've heard of paypal refusing
>to close accounts that had subscriptions linked to them, or is
>that just more kunich-esque griping?

That rumor is true. Paypal will not close an account if there are
transactions pending. However, it will close an account that has
linked subscriptions connected to an account. When a vendor then
tries to submit a charge to Paypal for some kind of regular
subscription, Paypal will inform the vendor that the account is closed
and to contact the former account owner directly. If you leave money
in a Paypal account and then close it, Paypal will warn you and
suggest ways for you to move the funds elsewhere. If you don't move
your funds, Paypal will confiscate the funds.

A short list of some of the things that can interfere with closing an
account:
<https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/About-Settings/Can-t-delete-my-account/td-p/1458538>
In certain cases, you may not close your PayPal account, including:
* To evade an investigation.
* If you have an open PayPal Credit account linked to your PayPal
account; however, your PayPal account can be restricted at your
request so it is only open to enable you to service your PayPal Credit
account.
* If you have a pending PayPal Pay After Delivery transaction, PayPal
will not close your PayPal account until that transaction has been
completed, but PayPal may limit your ability to make additional
transactions using your PayPal account.
* If you have a pending transaction or an open dispute or claim.
* If your PayPal account has a negative balance.
* If your PayPal account is subject to a hold, limitation or reserve.

Note: When I was still gainfully self-employed, I did quite a bit of
buying on eBay using Paypal. I won't claim that the relationship was
perfect, but nothing worse than dealing with my bank or credit card
company. However, I wasted quite a bit of time fixing botched
transactions, scams, wrong merchandise and refunds for friends and
customers. Also, I had to deal with some fraud problems. Once I had
all the relevant information and documents, dealing with Paypal was
fairly painless.

[John B.]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 2:47:40?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 12:51:03?PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

But Tommy has problems with everything he tries to do. The damned seat
post don't fit, the handle bars come loose, I even remember he had to
have help from a lawyer to install a "bottom bracket".

Forget the PayPall Tommy, it is the whole world that is against you.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 4/3/2023 4:02 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> I actually don't use paypal except in very rare instances - like the vendor doesn't take anything else and it's for something I can't get anywhere else. I think I've used it like 3 times in the past ten years. In any case, I've heard of paypal refusing to close accounts that had subscriptions linked to them, or is that just more kunich-esque griping?

I hadn't heard that, but in any case if you just create a new Paypal
account for a specific purchase, and use a virtual credit card as the
payment mechanism, then you just deactivate the virtual credit card and
forget about that PayPal account.

It may sound complex, but it's not really. You can create a virtual
credit card in a minute, and then create a PayPal account in another
couple of minutes (if you can't directly use the virtual credit card,
but usually you can).

[sms]

On 4/3/2023 4:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 16:02:19 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I actually don't use paypal except in very rare instances - like
>> the vendor doesn't take anything else and it's for something I
>> can't get anywhere else. I think I've used it like 3 times in
>> the past ten years. In any case, I've heard of paypal refusing
>> to close accounts that had subscriptions linked to them, or is
>> that just more kunich-esque griping?
>
> That rumor is true. Paypal will not close an account if there are
> transactions pending.

That's different than having subscribed to something that auto-renews
every month or every year. Unless you happen to hit the interval between
when the vendor submits the payment request, and the payment being made,
there's no issue with closing an account.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I used to do infrequent trading on ebay - almost exclusively bike parts. I never had more than a couple of hundred bucks in the account. Then paypal decided on a whim to freeze it for 30 days, giving the usual list of "possible" reasons - none of which applied to me: sudden change/increase in transactions, transactions outside of the normal types of merchandise, a complaint filed against you, violation of terms of use...... I emailed them for a better explanation and just got the same list, but with a customer service contact. I called the number and actually got a human, who simply parroted the list. I went through the last year of transactions with them (probably only about 5 transactions) and asked to tell me what was suspicious about any of it. The only thing he was able to tell me was that nothing in my history seemed to qualify for any of the usual reasons, but he was unable (or unwilling) to unfreeze the account. It occurred to me that this was a scam by paypal to lock money into their bank to gain interest. So I did some research, yup:

https://money.cnn.com/2013/01/21/technology/paypal-frozen-funds/

I also found a website at the time that estimated the amount of interest they were getting from these arbitrary freezes - It estimated it amounted to 5 - 10% of their total income, I think I remember they were around the 50 million dollar mark back then. But, after all these years, a RICO class action suit:

https://www.turnpikelaw.com/paypal-faces-civil-rico-lawsuit-for-freezing-customer-accounts/

[sms]

On 4/3/2023 5:13 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> But Tommy has problems with everything he tries to do. The damned seat
> post don't fit, the handle bars come loose, I even remember he had to
> have help from a lawyer to install a "bottom bracket".
>
> Forget the PayPall Tommy, it is the whole world that is against you.

I think the worst thing that happened was the SAE Torx wrenches because
no one else in the world had been affected by that. At ;east with PayPal
I'm sure that others have unintentionally comprised their PayPal
accounts or unintentionally signed up for some recurring subscription.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 11:00:32 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 4/3/2023 5:13 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > But Tommy has problems with everything he tries to do. The damned seat
> > post don't fit, the handle bars come loose, I even remember he had to
> > have help from a lawyer to install a "bottom bracket".
> >
> > Forget the PayPall Tommy, it is the whole world that is against you.
> I think the worst thing that happened was the SAE Torx wrenches because
> no one else in the world had been affected by that.

You don't recall him having to search for special campagnolo non-stretch shifter cables?