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Lithium ion batteries stored at the clinic started leaking highly flammable hydrogen gas, prompting an evacuation
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Catrike Rider
Jul 20, 2023, 4:45:50 PM7/20/23
to
https://www.tampabay.com/news/breaking-news/2023/07/20/damaged-batteries-injure-three-tampa-johns-hopkins-childrens-clinic/
Three employees were hospitalized after lithium ion batteries started
leaking hydrogen gas at Johns Hopkins All Children’s Outpatient Care
in Tampa.
Hillsborough County Fire Rescue evacuated roughly 80 people from the
building Thursday morning after the clinic reported an electrical
smell, according to a media release. The smell came from the magnetic
resonance imaging, or MRI area, which was storing 30 lithium ion
batteries as a backup power source for MRI machines, said Rob Herrin,
the public information officer with fire rescue.
Three employees experienced respiratory symptoms and were
hospitalized, hospital officials said in a statement. Fire rescue
reported that they are in stable condition. The fire department
screened 13 occupants for symptoms and did not disclose whether the
remaining 10 had respiratory issues.
The 30 batteries started swelling and “off-gassing,” officials said,
meaning they began emitting hydrogen gas. Swollen batteries are
damaged and can trigger an explosive fire, per the Environmental
Protection Agency.
Hydrogen gas is highly flammable and explosive Herrin said. Excessive
concentrations of it compound fire risk.
Hazmat technicians removed the rack of batteries from the building
late this afternoon, according to fire rescue. The batteries were
placed in a substance that will neutralize them. Meanwhile, fans will
ventilate remaining hydrogen gas from the building.
Tom Kunich
Jul 20, 2023, 5:06:01 PM7/20/23
to
Catrike Rider
Jul 20, 2023, 5:20:53 PM7/20/23
to
On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 14:05:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
That's only one of the reasons I'll never have an electric vehicle.
That's only one of the many, many reasons I'll never have an electric
bike.
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
That's only one of the many, many reasons I'll never have an electric
bike.
Tom Kunich
Jul 20, 2023, 7:51:33 PM7/20/23
to
I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and many reasons to.
AMuzi
Jul 20, 2023, 8:38:54 PM7/20/23
to
On 7/20/2023 6:51 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
you're right.
More detail on that here
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 2:20:53 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 14:05:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 1:45:50?PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> https://www.tampabay.com/news/breaking-news/2023/07/20/damaged-batteries-injure-three-tampa-johns-hopkins-childrens-clinic/
>>>>
>>>> Three employees were hospitalized after lithium ion batteries started
>>>> leaking hydrogen gas at Johns Hopkins All Children’s Outpatient Care
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 14:05:58 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 1:45:50?PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> https://www.tampabay.com/news/breaking-news/2023/07/20/damaged-batteries-injure-three-tampa-johns-hopkins-childrens-clinic/
>>>>
>>>> Three employees were hospitalized after lithium ion batteries started
>>>> in Tampa.
>>>>
>>>> Hillsborough County Fire Rescue evacuated roughly 80 people from the
>>>> building Thursday morning after the clinic reported an electrical
>>>> smell, according to a media release. The smell came from the magnetic
>>>> resonance imaging, or MRI area, which was storing 30 lithium ion
>>>> batteries as a backup power source for MRI machines, said Rob Herrin,
>>>> the public information officer with fire rescue.
>>>>
>>>> Three employees experienced respiratory symptoms and were
>>>> hospitalized, hospital officials said in a statement. Fire rescue
>>>> reported that they are in stable condition. The fire department
>>>> screened 13 occupants for symptoms and did not disclose whether the
>>>> remaining 10 had respiratory issues.
>>>>
>>>> The 30 batteries started swelling and “off-gassing,†officials said,
>>>>
>>>> Hillsborough County Fire Rescue evacuated roughly 80 people from the
>>>> building Thursday morning after the clinic reported an electrical
>>>> smell, according to a media release. The smell came from the magnetic
>>>> resonance imaging, or MRI area, which was storing 30 lithium ion
>>>> batteries as a backup power source for MRI machines, said Rob Herrin,
>>>> the public information officer with fire rescue.
>>>>
>>>> Three employees experienced respiratory symptoms and were
>>>> hospitalized, hospital officials said in a statement. Fire rescue
>>>> reported that they are in stable condition. The fire department
>>>> screened 13 occupants for symptoms and did not disclose whether the
>>>> remaining 10 had respiratory issues.
>>>>
>>>> meaning they began emitting hydrogen gas. Swollen batteries are
>>>> damaged and can trigger an explosive fire, per the Environmental
>>>> Protection Agency.
>>>>
>>>> Hydrogen gas is highly flammable and explosive Herrin said. Excessive
>>>> concentrations of it compound fire risk.
>>>>
>>>> Hazmat technicians removed the rack of batteries from the building
>>>> late this afternoon, according to fire rescue. The batteries were
>>>> placed in a substance that will neutralize them. Meanwhile, fans will
>>>> ventilate remaining hydrogen gas from the building.
>>>
>>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
>> That's only one of the reasons I'll never have an electric vehicle.
>>
>> That's only one of the many, many reasons I'll never have an electric
>> bike.
> Don't say that. Toyota promises us solid state batteries that have a longer range and no fire hazard and recharging in 10 minutes or about the same time it takes to fill a tank of gas. Electric cars have very few moving parts to wear out and whatever Toyota can do, Tesla can do better. And the prices of a new Tesla is falling like a stone from mass production processes.
>
> I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and many reasons to.
>
A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>>>> damaged and can trigger an explosive fire, per the Environmental
>>>> Protection Agency.
>>>>
>>>> Hydrogen gas is highly flammable and explosive Herrin said. Excessive
>>>> concentrations of it compound fire risk.
>>>>
>>>> Hazmat technicians removed the rack of batteries from the building
>>>> late this afternoon, according to fire rescue. The batteries were
>>>> placed in a substance that will neutralize them. Meanwhile, fans will
>>>> ventilate remaining hydrogen gas from the building.
>>>
>>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
>> That's only one of the reasons I'll never have an electric vehicle.
>>
>> That's only one of the many, many reasons I'll never have an electric
>> bike.
> Don't say that. Toyota promises us solid state batteries that have a longer range and no fire hazard and recharging in 10 minutes or about the same time it takes to fill a tank of gas. Electric cars have very few moving parts to wear out and whatever Toyota can do, Tesla can do better. And the prices of a new Tesla is falling like a stone from mass production processes.
>
> I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and many reasons to.
>
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
you're right.
More detail on that here
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 20, 2023, 8:53:32 PM7/20/23
to
On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
>Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
>you're right.
>
>More detail on that here
>https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
We may need to wait until 2027.
>A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
>Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
>you're right.
>
>More detail on that here
>https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
"Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
<https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
"Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
vehicles by 2027"
(...)
"But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
AMuzi
Jul 20, 2023, 9:17:32 PM7/20/23
to
On 7/20/2023 7:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
>> Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
>> you're right.
>>
>> More detail on that here
>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
>
> We may need to wait until 2027.
>
> "Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
> <https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
> "Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
> vehicles by 2027"
> (...)
> "But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
>
>
>
Is that before or after affordable cold fusion?
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
>> Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
>> you're right.
>>
>> More detail on that here
>> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
>
> We may need to wait until 2027.
>
> "Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
> <https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
> "Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
> vehicles by 2027"
> (...)
> "But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
>
>
>
Frank Krygowski
Jul 20, 2023, 11:57:28 PM7/20/23
to
On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>
> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
Will his fears never stop?
- Frank Krygowski
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 1:19:10 AM7/21/23
to
Lithium Ion batteries. How that will work for all the things we now
use that have existing LiIon or LIPO cells, is unknown.
My crystal ball shows LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate or LFP) as a
more reasonable alternative to LiIon. They don't get hot when
punctured and don't catch fire or explode. They're also good for 2000
to 5000 charge cycles compared to LiIon being only good for about 500
charge cycles. One nice feature is that their 3.2V/cell works nicely
as a 12V drop in automobile battery replacement. LiFePO4 cells last 5
to 8 times longer. Best of all, they're available now.
Of course, LiFePO4 is not a miracle solution to our battery problems.
They don't like cold weather. The energy density is lower. I'm not
sure about the volumetric density.
LiIon LiFePO4
Energy Density 45 - 120 Wh/lb 40 - 55 Wh/lb
100 - 265 Wh/kg 90 -120 Wh/kg
Some comparisons:
<https://blog.ecoflow.com/us/lifepo4-vs-lithium-ion-batteries/>
<https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batteries-what-they-are-and-why-theyre-the-best/>
"Ford Opening Michigan Plant to Make Batteries That Could Bring EV
Costs Down" (Feb 13, 2023)
<https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42860946/ford-plant-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-ev/>
"The plant's lithium-iron-phosphate batteries, which are cheaper to
produce, will be introduced first on the Mustang Mach-E and, later,
the F-150 Lightning."
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 1:38:27 AM7/21/23
to
On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:57:26 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
>Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>Will his fears never stop?
>- Frank Krygowski
I think Tom made a pact with the devil. In trade for millions of
dollars, endless jobs, imaginary friends, 11 bicycles and cycling the
rest of his life, Tom willingly gave up the ability to tell the truth
and to distinguish between fact and fiction, which he considers
unimportant. Fear was likely part of the bargain, but I don't know
how. Faust got a better deal.
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
>Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>Will his fears never stop?
>- Frank Krygowski
dollars, endless jobs, imaginary friends, 11 bicycles and cycling the
rest of his life, Tom willingly gave up the ability to tell the truth
and to distinguish between fact and fiction, which he considers
unimportant. Fear was likely part of the bargain, but I don't know
how. Faust got a better deal.
Frank Krygowski
Jul 21, 2023, 11:36:24 AM7/21/23
to
On 7/21/2023 1:38 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:57:26 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
>
>> Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>> Will his fears never stop?
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> I think Tom made a pact with the devil. In trade for millions of
> dollars, endless jobs, imaginary friends, 11 bicycles and cycling the
> rest of his life, Tom willingly gave up the ability to tell the truth
> and to distinguish between fact and fiction, which he considers
> unimportant. Fear was likely part of the bargain, but I don't know
> how. Faust got a better deal.
Off topic, but on Faust, and the movie _O Brother Where Art Thou_:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:57:26 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01?PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
>
>> Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>> Will his fears never stop?
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> I think Tom made a pact with the devil. In trade for millions of
> dollars, endless jobs, imaginary friends, 11 bicycles and cycling the
> rest of his life, Tom willingly gave up the ability to tell the truth
> and to distinguish between fact and fiction, which he considers
> unimportant. Fear was likely part of the bargain, but I don't know
> how. Faust got a better deal.
Like renowned blues guitarist Robert Johnson, the crew picks up
guitarist Tommy at a rural crossroad. Tommy says
"... I had to be out at that there crossroads last midnight to sell my
soul to the devil."
...
"And what did the devil give you for your soul, Tommy?" Everett goes on.
"Well, he taught me to play this here guitar real good."
Delmar looks aghast.
"For that, you traded your everlasting soul?"
Tommy shrugs.
"Well, I wasn't using it."
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
Jul 21, 2023, 11:44:49 AM7/21/23
to
Tom Kunich
Jul 21, 2023, 11:52:38 AM7/21/23
to
Or are you pulling a stupid Flunky idiocy saying that cars that were melted into the pavement that you can see from space doesn't mean that they were electric cars or caused by batteries? Despite the majority of the car there when I rode by shortly after these fires.
Yes, in your stupid mind, understanding of the dangers of lithium ion batteries is fear. On the best day of your life the only greater fool on this group was Flunky.
funkma...@hotmail.com
Jul 21, 2023, 12:01:14 PM7/21/23
to
On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 11:52:38 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:57:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >
> > > Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
> > Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
> >
> > Will his fears never stop?
> What fears are those Frank? I am about to have some dental work done that will cost $10,000 with the prices these days. Now you can tell us that you could easily afford that.
We can only hope they make a mistake with the general anesthetic. Besides, what does getting dental work done have to do with leaving an electric car in your garage?
> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:57:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >
> > > Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because they are perfectly safe.
> > Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
> >
> > Will his fears never stop?
> What fears are those Frank? I am about to have some dental work done that will cost $10,000 with the prices these days. Now you can tell us that you could easily afford that.
> What am I afraid of?
> I am not half stupid enough to keep a flammable substance in my garage that might burn down my house because I'm pretending that Lithium Ion batteries are completely safe like you are.
> Or are you pulling a stupid Flunky idiocy saying that cars that were melted into the pavement that you can see from space doesn't mean that they were electric cars or caused by batteries?
> Despite the majority of the car there when I rode by shortly after these fires.
> Yes, in your stupid mind, understanding of the dangers of lithium ion batteries is fear. On the best day of your life the only greater fool on this group was Flunky.
Tom Kunich
Jul 21, 2023, 12:49:17 PM7/21/23
to
funkma...@hotmail.com
Jul 21, 2023, 1:51:13 PM7/21/23
to
> Also I'm the one that was making three times your monthly wage while working.
> Poor little Democrat is about to discover what happens to him when he tries to make a living in the Biden inflation economy.
I'll be driving through Bandon, I'll be sure to drop into to andre's assisted-living hovel and give him your regards.
Let's check that horrible biden inflation, shall we?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/273418/unadjusted-monthly-inflation-rate-in-the-us/
Looks like it's headed in the right direction
Worried about CPI? That looks lie it's headed in the right direction also
https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2023/consumer-prices-up-3-0-percent-over-the-year-ended-june-2023.htm
Yes tommy, we know..."just wait until the next election!! A red wave!!!!"
You go with that....
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 2:39:00 PM7/21/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 08:44:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:53:32?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>> >https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
>> >Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
>> >you're right.
>> >
>> >More detail on that here
>> >https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
>> We may need to wait until 2027.
>>
>> "Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
>> <https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
>> "Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
>> vehicles by 2027"
>> (...)
>> "But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
radio shop that maintained a large numbers of battery powered 2-way
radios and pagers. I also maintained a few large lead-calcium battery
banks for a local ham radio repeater and several mountain top weather
stations. The care and feeding of UPS power supplies and laptop
batteries was part of my former business. Most of my home computer
and entertainment hardware is backed up by a small LiFePO4 battery,
some modules from eBay, and a rooftop solar panel. This is work in
progress so no photos yet.
Some experiments with LiIon and LIPO battery charging and capacity
testing:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%20LiPo%203000%20ma-hr%2018650%20test.jpg>
It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
Reminder... how much or how little I know has no relevance to your
level of expertise. You could declare me an idiot and you would still
remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
everything.
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:53:32?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
>> >https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
>> >Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
>> >you're right.
>> >
>> >More detail on that here
>> >https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
>> We may need to wait until 2027.
>>
>> "Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
>> <https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
>> "Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
>> vehicles by 2027"
>> (...)
>> "But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
>Just out of curiosity Jeff, what do you think you know about
>technology? And particularly of batteries which you know
>exactly zero about?
I'm not up to date on the latest greatest battery tech. I worked for a
>technology? And particularly of batteries which you know
>exactly zero about?
radio shop that maintained a large numbers of battery powered 2-way
radios and pagers. I also maintained a few large lead-calcium battery
banks for a local ham radio repeater and several mountain top weather
stations. The care and feeding of UPS power supplies and laptop
batteries was part of my former business. Most of my home computer
and entertainment hardware is backed up by a small LiFePO4 battery,
some modules from eBay, and a rooftop solar panel. This is work in
progress so no photos yet.
Some experiments with LiIon and LIPO battery charging and capacity
testing:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%20LiPo%203000%20ma-hr%2018650%20test.jpg>
It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
Reminder... how much or how little I know has no relevance to your
level of expertise. You could declare me an idiot and you would still
remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
everything.
funkma...@hotmail.com
Jul 21, 2023, 2:57:15 PM7/21/23
to
On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 2:39:00 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 08:44:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:53:32?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
> >> >https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
> >> >Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
> >> >you're right.
> >> >
> >> >More detail on that here
> >> >https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
> >> We may need to wait until 2027.
> >>
> >> "Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
> >> <https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
> >> "Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
> >> vehicles by 2027"
> >> (...)
> >> "But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
> >Just out of curiosity Jeff, what do you think you know about
> >technology? And particularly of batteries which you know
> >exactly zero about?
I think we've proven pretty conclusively how little Tom knows about technology in general, let alone batteries.
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 08:44:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:53:32?PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 19:38:53 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A don't know much about that but the first article cited here:
> >> >https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/solid-state-battery
> >> >Seems to indicate more stable lithium compounds so maybe
> >> >you're right.
> >> >
> >> >More detail on that here
> >> >https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18736-7
> >> We may need to wait until 2027.
> >>
> >> "Toyota says solid-state battery breakthrough can halve cost and size"
> >> <https://www.ft.com/content/87cb8e92-8e82-4755-8fc3-2943f8f63e1d>
> >> "Japanese carmaker plans to commercialise technology in electric
> >> vehicles by 2027"
> >> (...)
> >> "But the technology remains expensive and difficult to produce..."
> >Just out of curiosity Jeff, what do you think you know about
> >technology? And particularly of batteries which you know
> >exactly zero about?
> I'm not up to date on the latest greatest battery tech. I worked for a
> radio shop that maintained a large numbers of battery powered 2-way
> radios and pagers. I also maintained a few large lead-calcium battery
> banks for a local ham radio repeater and several mountain top weather
> stations. The care and feeding of UPS power supplies and laptop
> batteries was part of my former business. Most of my home computer
> and entertainment hardware is backed up by a small LiFePO4 battery,
> some modules from eBay, and a rooftop solar panel. This is work in
> progress so no photos yet.
>
> Some experiments with LiIon and LIPO battery charging and capacity
> testing:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg>
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%20LiPo%203000%20ma-hr%2018650%20test.jpg>
>
> It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
> and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
> maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
We learned a ton about battery chemistries and properties in those tests, as you note, maybe if tommy had such experience he wouldn't be making such stupid comments.
>
> Reminder... how much or how little I know has no relevance to your
> level of expertise. You could declare me an idiot and you would still
> remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
> everything.
"TDR isn't used for testing lines lines" - tom kunich
Frank Krygowski
Jul 21, 2023, 4:54:46 PM7/21/23
to
On 7/21/2023 11:52 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:57:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because
they are perfectly safe.
>> Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>>
>> Will his fears never stop?
>
> What fears are those Frank?
So many! Inflation, immigrants, handlebars slipping, carbon fiber
> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:57:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Krygowski keeps his electric car in his attached garage because
they are perfectly safe.
>> Did Tom just find yet another thing to be afraid of?
>>
>> Will his fears never stop?
>
> What fears are those Frank?
failing, vaccines, bad water, homeless people, low hanging tree branches ...
> I am about to have some dental work done that will cost $10,000 with
the prices these days. Now you can tell us that you could easily afford
that.
insurance means I'd probably never get such a bill. But congratulations
on a really impressive non sequitur! What the heck do your teeth or your
dentist bills have to do with your fear of EV fires?
> What am I afraid of? I am not half stupid enough to keep a flammable
substance in my garage that might burn down my house because I'm
pretending that Lithium Ion batteries are completely safe like you are.
recall I'm the guy frequently bringing up benefits vs. detriments, and
frequently bringing up relative risks, with references to relevant data.
I've seen no evidence that my EV parked in my garage is any greater fire
risk than the gasoline powered cars that I parked in the same garage for
40+ years. In fact, ISTR some evidence that the EV fire risk is
significantly lower.
Let us know how you deal emotionally with parking a car with gallons of
intensely flammable gasoline in your garage.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Lou Holtman
Jul 21, 2023, 5:03:37 PM7/21/23
to
Lou
Frank Krygowski
Jul 21, 2023, 5:24:56 PM7/21/23
to
On 7/21/2023 2:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> You could declare me an idiot and you would still
> remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
> everything.
Well spoken! "An abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about
> You could declare me an idiot and you would still
> remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
> everything.
literally everything" should be Tom's visible tattoo, just to warn folks.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
Jul 21, 2023, 5:25:26 PM7/21/23
to
Frank Krygowski
Jul 21, 2023, 5:26:41 PM7/21/23
to
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
Jul 21, 2023, 5:30:46 PM7/21/23
to
Tom Kunich
Jul 21, 2023, 5:34:12 PM7/21/23
to
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 5:48:59 PM7/21/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:57:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 2:39:00?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>I think we've proven pretty conclusively how little Tom knows about technology in general, let alone batteries.
Agreed. However, due to Tom's selective memory, he needs to be
constantly reminded that he is clueless. The difficult part for me is
reminding him without me being excessively abusive. However, I don't
mind. I need the practice.
>> It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
>> and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
>> maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
>In my world of Hazardous Locations, batteries are very tightly regulated. We recently had to do some in-house testing to figure out what batteries performed best under extreme loads before we could submit the best candidates for UL to approve for our application. HazLoc forbids any lithium chemistry at this time, so we were stuck with Alkaline primaries and NiMh secondaries. It was a fun test, essentially thermocouple up a sample, switch on a 1/2 ohm load, and watch the fireworks. Most of the batteries got so hot they spewed out electrolyte, got some great video of that. Of the ones that didn't, we had exactly two that stayed below the thermal limit. One of those didn't meet our ambient requirements, so we were left with exactly one approved battery out of the nearly one dozen we tested, the Duracell MN1500.
Sigh. That Duracell AA would be near the bottom of my list of
acceptable batteries. I haven't done any extensive testing. What
I've noticed by random observation is that the bulk of the alkaline
batteries that leak are Duracell. I had 64 Duracell AA batteries leak
in the original bubble package. I can't find the photo, but here is
the Costco Kirkland equivalent leaking in the package:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
My idea of a fun test was to see how quickly I could charge various
cells. This was in the days of NiCd and NiMH so I didn't test LiIon.
I discovered that the cells would stay fairly cold when I was charging
at 10C to an SoC (state of charge) of about 85% of full charge. Above
85%, it would rapidly get hot. As the SoC approaches 100%, the cell
became VERY hot. I have the scorch marks on my Formica workbench to
prove it. Of course, I couldn't resist testing for a safe upper
limit. The cell did not catch fire, but my shop reeked of toxic
condensates for about a week.
Another discovery was that the cells were not good thermal conductors.
In the stone age of exotic battery technology, it was common to find
battery chargers that used either a thermistor, thermocouple, or IR
LED to measure the cell's case temperature. The idea was to detect
when the temperature of the surface of the cell had started to rise
and then turn off charging. However, since the internals were not
very good thermal conductors, by the time the outside of the cell was
showing a temperature rise, the inside was already in thermal runaway
or dead. More scorch marks on my workbench.
My introduction to LiIon 18650 cell charging was with this design
disaster:
<https://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20Bowei%20HC-103W%20UK.html>
"There is only one thing to say about this charger: Stay away. It do
not fit the mains outlets, it cannot charge in a safe way and it is
dangerous to touch when plugged in."
I bought 10 of these chargers and gave them away as holiday presents.
A few weeks later, I drove around to everyone and confiscated the
chargers, which I later replaced with better chargers.
It killed a few expensive cells before I realized what was happening.
There was also some leakage from the 115VAC line to the battery
terminals.
<https://lygte-info.dk>
The web site is quite good for checking out chargers before they try
to kill me and cells before they explode in my face.
If the battery and charger fail to kill me, there's always the inline
DC fuse. Mostly, I use ATM, mini-ATM, ATX and other blade fuses. I
saw a YouTube video which compared name brand (Bussman, Littlefuse)
blade fuses with the no-name Chinese clone fuses found on Ebay,
Amazon, and AliExpress. The name brand fuses would blow as expected.
However, most of the no-name fuses I tested were far out of spec. Some
of them never blew. In one test, I shoved 120Amps through a 50A
ATX-Maxi blade fuse and holder. The fuse never blew, but wire
insulation melted.
Do you see why my web pile is named "LearnByDestroying.com"?
>We learned a ton about battery chemistries and properties in those
>tests, as you note, maybe if tommy had such experience he wouldn't
>be making such stupid comments.
Since Tom did not attend college, he might no realize that undergrad
classes in college only teaches the basics. Real understand comes
only after one has experience with the hardware or processes. Learning
the basics by hanging out in a library isn't going to work.
>> Reminder... how much or how little I know has no relevance to your
>> level of expertise. You could declare me an idiot and you would still
>> remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
>> everything.
>+1
>"TDR isn't used for testing lines lines" - tom kunich
About 7 years ago, I owned an OTDR (optical TDR) for about a week. I
bought it at a thrift shop not knowing what it was. Before I had time
to search the web, a friend arrives with checkbook in hand. He wanted
it for work and didn't seem to care about the price. I paid $20 for
it, and he bought it for $50. At the time, it was selling for about
$1,000. Oops. He let me borrow it when I needed it, so I can't
complain (much).
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 2:39:00?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>I think we've proven pretty conclusively how little Tom knows about technology in general, let alone batteries.
constantly reminded that he is clueless. The difficult part for me is
reminding him without me being excessively abusive. However, I don't
mind. I need the practice.
>> It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
>> and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
>> maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
>In my world of Hazardous Locations, batteries are very tightly regulated. We recently had to do some in-house testing to figure out what batteries performed best under extreme loads before we could submit the best candidates for UL to approve for our application. HazLoc forbids any lithium chemistry at this time, so we were stuck with Alkaline primaries and NiMh secondaries. It was a fun test, essentially thermocouple up a sample, switch on a 1/2 ohm load, and watch the fireworks. Most of the batteries got so hot they spewed out electrolyte, got some great video of that. Of the ones that didn't, we had exactly two that stayed below the thermal limit. One of those didn't meet our ambient requirements, so we were left with exactly one approved battery out of the nearly one dozen we tested, the Duracell MN1500.
acceptable batteries. I haven't done any extensive testing. What
I've noticed by random observation is that the bulk of the alkaline
batteries that leak are Duracell. I had 64 Duracell AA batteries leak
in the original bubble package. I can't find the photo, but here is
the Costco Kirkland equivalent leaking in the package:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
My idea of a fun test was to see how quickly I could charge various
cells. This was in the days of NiCd and NiMH so I didn't test LiIon.
I discovered that the cells would stay fairly cold when I was charging
at 10C to an SoC (state of charge) of about 85% of full charge. Above
85%, it would rapidly get hot. As the SoC approaches 100%, the cell
became VERY hot. I have the scorch marks on my Formica workbench to
prove it. Of course, I couldn't resist testing for a safe upper
limit. The cell did not catch fire, but my shop reeked of toxic
condensates for about a week.
Another discovery was that the cells were not good thermal conductors.
In the stone age of exotic battery technology, it was common to find
battery chargers that used either a thermistor, thermocouple, or IR
LED to measure the cell's case temperature. The idea was to detect
when the temperature of the surface of the cell had started to rise
and then turn off charging. However, since the internals were not
very good thermal conductors, by the time the outside of the cell was
showing a temperature rise, the inside was already in thermal runaway
or dead. More scorch marks on my workbench.
My introduction to LiIon 18650 cell charging was with this design
disaster:
<https://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Charger%20Bowei%20HC-103W%20UK.html>
"There is only one thing to say about this charger: Stay away. It do
not fit the mains outlets, it cannot charge in a safe way and it is
dangerous to touch when plugged in."
I bought 10 of these chargers and gave them away as holiday presents.
A few weeks later, I drove around to everyone and confiscated the
chargers, which I later replaced with better chargers.
It killed a few expensive cells before I realized what was happening.
There was also some leakage from the 115VAC line to the battery
terminals.
<https://lygte-info.dk>
The web site is quite good for checking out chargers before they try
to kill me and cells before they explode in my face.
If the battery and charger fail to kill me, there's always the inline
DC fuse. Mostly, I use ATM, mini-ATM, ATX and other blade fuses. I
saw a YouTube video which compared name brand (Bussman, Littlefuse)
blade fuses with the no-name Chinese clone fuses found on Ebay,
Amazon, and AliExpress. The name brand fuses would blow as expected.
However, most of the no-name fuses I tested were far out of spec. Some
of them never blew. In one test, I shoved 120Amps through a 50A
ATX-Maxi blade fuse and holder. The fuse never blew, but wire
insulation melted.
Do you see why my web pile is named "LearnByDestroying.com"?
>We learned a ton about battery chemistries and properties in those
>tests, as you note, maybe if tommy had such experience he wouldn't
>be making such stupid comments.
classes in college only teaches the basics. Real understand comes
only after one has experience with the hardware or processes. Learning
the basics by hanging out in a library isn't going to work.
>> Reminder... how much or how little I know has no relevance to your
>> level of expertise. You could declare me an idiot and you would still
>> remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
>> everything.
>+1
>"TDR isn't used for testing lines lines" - tom kunich
bought it at a thrift shop not knowing what it was. Before I had time
to search the web, a friend arrives with checkbook in hand. He wanted
it for work and didn't seem to care about the price. I paid $20 for
it, and he bought it for $50. At the time, it was selling for about
$1,000. Oops. He let me borrow it when I needed it, so I can't
complain (much).
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 6:30:48 PM7/21/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jeff, just remember that you like all stupid little ignorant fools started the name slinging.
Really? I've always called you "Tom". Nothing else but "Tom". I
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jeff, just remember that you like all stupid little ignorant fools started the name slinging.
don't recall calling you any names or anything else. Perhaps if you
could find where I referred to you by some derogatory name, I might
consider apologizing.
I really like the mirror you're using to view the world. The mirror
seems to reflect more of your own personality than what you might see
in it. Thanks for calling me "little". Don't worry, I don't believe
in belittling someone who cannot shrink any further.
>I feel sorry for someone that has to pretend that a degree made
>them an expert at anything whereupon you had to work the majority
>of your life as a technician.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
However, you are correct in a few points. I was working mostly as a
technician doing computer repair. I know of a few repair shops run by
engineers, but not very many. On the side, I did some engineering but
mostly my work was what a technician can perform.
For some odd reason, you see that as wrong. I'll remind you of why I
gave up silicon valley and engineering. I was "laid off" from Granger
Associates in 1983. I then spent 7 months working for a former
employer. I was stressed to the max and was actively looking for
something else to do. I lived off my stock options for a few months
and eventually decided to take a giant step backwards and go back to
what I was doing before college. I started my computer repair
business in 1984. After repeating every startup mistake possible, I
was doing quite well. I had organized a cooperative with the other
repair shops in the area, solely to give everyone some time office
while others took care of the customers. Things were looking good.
Then, my father had a stroke in 1985. I soon found myself running his
lingerie manufacturing business in Smog Angeles. I didn't want to
give up the repair business, so I commuted back and forth 350 miles.
After 3 years, we sold the business to the head salesman. My father
never recovered from the stoke, so my situation remained permanent for
9.5 years of hell. When he died, I hung around Smog Angeles for a few
weeks, made the necessary arrangements, and returned to Santa Cruz,
never again to return to Smog Angeles.
From that point on, I was able to computer consulting and repair.
However, I was burnt out, tired, and overloaded from customers who
were quite happy to wait for me to return. So, I took on some more
engineering and design work, which devolved into mostly cleaning up
someone else's mistakes. I was good at this and didn't mind. There's
more, but it's not relevant to this discussion.
Now, tell me again how it's beneath my dignity to work as a
technician. Had I gone back to digging ditches for electricians, very
little would be different. It doesn't matter what I do, as long as I
do it well.
>That pretty much demonstrates the worth of your degree.
at the local Motorola 2way radio authorized dealer. I would have
continued working there if it were not for the Vietnam war. The
choice go to college or go to Vietnam. I chose college.
My turn with a question. You're online resume shows that you left
Lowry AFB in 1966. The first job you listed started in 1984. What
were you doing for work in the 18 years between the USAF and Thoratec
Laboratories? Living in libraries while reading for an engineering
degree?
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/details/experience/>
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 7:10:08 PM7/21/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:25:24 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So you feel it is wise not to allow other people to know
>your name because they might put your name out of the
>Dark Web like Liebermann has mine?
I think you might mean the Deep Web, not the Dark Web. See:
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So you feel it is wise not to allow other people to know
>your name because they might put your name out of the
>Dark Web like Liebermann has mine?
<https://www.avast.com/c-dark-web-websites/>
Scroll down to "What is the Dark Web". The iceberg illustration
should be self explanitory. Notice that almost all of the Dark Web
sites are fairly common and popular web sites.
"Is the dark web 90% of the Internet?
The deep web is about 90% of the internet, while the dark web makes up
about 5%. The normal, surface internet makes up the other 5%. A large
portion of deepweb links are sites hidden behind security firewalls or
authentication forms, such as banking sites or any of the billions of
web pages that are password protected."
Speaking of names, here are 437 of Tom's posting to rec.bicycles.tech
under a slightly different name from 1992 to 1997:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=author%3AThomas+author%3AKunich&sortBy=DATE>
Score: No score because it's a very common mistake.
John B.
Jul 21, 2023, 7:56:34 PM7/21/23
to
On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
But Tommy, aren't lithium-ion batteries used in hand phones?
My Samsung phones certainly do.
But, "not in my house"? Do you keep your hand phone out on the porch?
--
Cheers,
John B.
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
My Samsung phones certainly do.
But, "not in my house"? Do you keep your hand phone out on the porch?
--
Cheers,
John B.
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 8:33:50 PM7/21/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 06:56:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Tom has a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW SM-A516V Android smartphone. 4500
ma-hr LiIon non-removable battery.
"Samsung phones are Blowing Up - Here’s Why."
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfM0GqsIB6c>
The video mentions that only Samsung phones older than 3 years have
bulging battery problems. It's allegedly caused by decomposing
electrolyte:
Tom - Do a pre-emptive battery transplant.
Tom's Samsung S51 5G (2020) is the same age as my Moto G Power (2020).
Both are "obsolete" because both Samsung and Motorola only provide
updates for 2 years. The S51 is a nice phone, with features slightly
better than mine, but cost Tom 3 times as much.
>But, "not in my house"? Do you keep your hand phone out on the porch?
I keep a spare (identical) phone in my car. It gets rather hot.
Oh-oh.
"What to do with a swollen battery"
<https://www.ifixit.com/Wiki/What_to_do_with_a_swollen_battery>
Note: I have a collection of LiIon cells and batteries. I keep them
in steel tool boxes. That won't prevent a fire from melting the
toolbox, but will slow it down enough for me to toss it into a nearby
ash pit.
More Samsung oddities, this time the camera:
"How Samsung Phones are "Faking" their Photos."
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKYJ-gwGLXQ> (10:32)
wrote:
ma-hr LiIon non-removable battery.
"Samsung phones are Blowing Up - Here’s Why."
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfM0GqsIB6c>
The video mentions that only Samsung phones older than 3 years have
bulging battery problems. It's allegedly caused by decomposing
electrolyte:
Tom - Do a pre-emptive battery transplant.
Tom's Samsung S51 5G (2020) is the same age as my Moto G Power (2020).
Both are "obsolete" because both Samsung and Motorola only provide
updates for 2 years. The S51 is a nice phone, with features slightly
better than mine, but cost Tom 3 times as much.
>But, "not in my house"? Do you keep your hand phone out on the porch?
Oh-oh.
"What to do with a swollen battery"
<https://www.ifixit.com/Wiki/What_to_do_with_a_swollen_battery>
Note: I have a collection of LiIon cells and batteries. I keep them
in steel tool boxes. That won't prevent a fire from melting the
toolbox, but will slow it down enough for me to toss it into a nearby
ash pit.
More Samsung oddities, this time the camera:
"How Samsung Phones are "Faking" their Photos."
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKYJ-gwGLXQ> (10:32)
John B.
Jul 21, 2023, 9:33:33 PM7/21/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 17:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 06:56:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them
>>>in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they
>>>claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and
>>>many reasons to.
>
>>But Tommy, aren't lithium-ion batteries used in hand phones?
>>My Samsung phones certainly do.
>
>Tom has a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW SM-A516V Android smartphone. 4500
>ma-hr LiIon non-removable battery.
>
>"Samsung phones are Blowing Up - Here’s Why."
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfM0GqsIB6c>
>The video mentions that only Samsung phones older than 3 years have
>bulging battery problems. It's allegedly caused by decomposing
>electrolyte:
I've used Samsung since the days when a hand phone was only a phone
and yes, I've had a couple of battery's get fat enough to cause the
case to bulge, But never to explode or catch fire.
I was told by a Samsung Tech that I shouldn't charge the battery all
the time - I usually keep the phone "plugged in" when it is not in my
pocket - so I've been charging the current phone a bit less.
As a aside, a bulging case was my wife's excuse for me to buy her a
new phone so, I guess, one might say there was some good features in
Lithium batteries :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 06:56:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them
>>>in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they
>>>claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and
>>>many reasons to.
>
>>But Tommy, aren't lithium-ion batteries used in hand phones?
>>My Samsung phones certainly do.
>
>Tom has a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW SM-A516V Android smartphone. 4500
>ma-hr LiIon non-removable battery.
>
>"Samsung phones are Blowing Up - Here’s Why."
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfM0GqsIB6c>
>The video mentions that only Samsung phones older than 3 years have
>bulging battery problems. It's allegedly caused by decomposing
>electrolyte:
and yes, I've had a couple of battery's get fat enough to cause the
case to bulge, But never to explode or catch fire.
I was told by a Samsung Tech that I shouldn't charge the battery all
the time - I usually keep the phone "plugged in" when it is not in my
pocket - so I've been charging the current phone a bit less.
As a aside, a bulging case was my wife's excuse for me to buy her a
new phone so, I guess, one might say there was some good features in
Lithium batteries :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 21, 2023, 10:36:33 PM7/21/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:33:22 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>I've used Samsung since the days when a hand phone was only a phone
>and yes, I've had a couple of battery's get fat enough to cause the
>case to bulge, But never to explode or catch fire.
More Samsung bulging phones:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bulging+Samsung+phone+battery&tbm=isch>
Those probably won't catch fire or explode. If you want to get them
burning, all you need to do is pound a nail into the LiPo cell. That
will punch a hole in the polymer separator, and short the anode and
cathode together. That causes the battery to become hot. In the
past, that would start a fire with the electrolyte and metallic
lithium providing the fuel. These days, we have self-sealing
separators, which prevent a short. That works for small holes, but
not nails. Fortunately, the chances of punching a large hole in your
Samsung phone battery is rather small. Also, the gel electrolyte is
less subject to ignition, but unfortunately tends to harden with age,
which limits the lifetime of LiPo cells.
Argh. I forgot to mention that a cell phone type LiPo battery is
different from a Li-Ion prismatic (cylindrical) cell found in an EV
battery pack.
"Lithium-Ion Batteries vs. Lithium-Polymer: Which One's Better?"
<https://www.makeuseof.com/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-polymer-which-is-better/>
Ok, back to starting fires. What makes a Li-Ion EV battery catch fire
is the same as what starts a fire in a LiPo cell. Something punches a
hole in the separator, the battery terminals short, it gets hot, and
the electrolyte and lithium catch fire. If the expanding gasses are
not vented sufficiently quick, as in the original Boeing 777
Dreamliner, it can go boom:
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lithium-ion-batteries-grounded-the-dreamliner/>
In your Samsung phone, the danger is not from the battery bulging. The
danger is from the battery bending. If bent, the separator can crack
or tear, which has the same effect as punching a hole in the
separator.
I'm going to leave out a potentially long rant about the damage that
can be done by a bulging LiPo battery.
>I was told by a Samsung Tech that I shouldn't charge the battery all
>the time - I usually keep the phone "plugged in" when it is not in my
>pocket - so I've been charging the current phone a bit less.
That's basically good advice. I try to charge to something around
90%. The recommended cutoff is about 80% for laptops. However,
that's to extend battery life, not prevent fires. Before I can
describe the problem, I need to blame someone. As usual, it's the
manufacturer, Samsung. They have complete control over the battery
charge curve and can terminate charging at any point they consider
safe. Instead, they terminate between 4.1 and 4.2VDC, which is in the
"overcharge" region. They do this because it increases the run time
on the phone and makes marketing happy. Never mind that almost
anything that will cause a perforated separator or self heating is
dangerous.
For charge limiting, I use Accubattery:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.digibites.accubattery&hl=en_US&gl=US>
It's probably not the best and rather clumsy to use, but it works.
Also, check your battery capacity every few months using Accubattery,
under the "battery health" tab. All I do is discharge the phone to
below 15% SoC (state of charge) followed by a full charge to 100%
without interruption. If I unplug the charger during the charge, I
get to start over. A new battery shows 5000 ma-hr. After a bit over
2 years, it shows 4600 ma-hr. If this capacity test shows a drastic
drop in capacity, the battery is gone.
Incidentally, I had an identical spare phone. I bought it used on
eBay with a known marginal battery. It's currently showing 3900
ma-hr. Because of the low capacity, I got it for a good price.
>As a aside, a bulging case was my wife's excuse for me to buy her a
>new phone so, I guess, one might say there was some good features in
>Lithium batteries :-)
Sigh. I guess that glorified poverty and buying only recycled and
used things, are no longer fashionable.
wrote:
>I've used Samsung since the days when a hand phone was only a phone
>and yes, I've had a couple of battery's get fat enough to cause the
>case to bulge, But never to explode or catch fire.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bulging+Samsung+phone+battery&tbm=isch>
Those probably won't catch fire or explode. If you want to get them
burning, all you need to do is pound a nail into the LiPo cell. That
will punch a hole in the polymer separator, and short the anode and
cathode together. That causes the battery to become hot. In the
past, that would start a fire with the electrolyte and metallic
lithium providing the fuel. These days, we have self-sealing
separators, which prevent a short. That works for small holes, but
not nails. Fortunately, the chances of punching a large hole in your
Samsung phone battery is rather small. Also, the gel electrolyte is
less subject to ignition, but unfortunately tends to harden with age,
which limits the lifetime of LiPo cells.
Argh. I forgot to mention that a cell phone type LiPo battery is
different from a Li-Ion prismatic (cylindrical) cell found in an EV
battery pack.
"Lithium-Ion Batteries vs. Lithium-Polymer: Which One's Better?"
<https://www.makeuseof.com/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-polymer-which-is-better/>
Ok, back to starting fires. What makes a Li-Ion EV battery catch fire
is the same as what starts a fire in a LiPo cell. Something punches a
hole in the separator, the battery terminals short, it gets hot, and
the electrolyte and lithium catch fire. If the expanding gasses are
not vented sufficiently quick, as in the original Boeing 777
Dreamliner, it can go boom:
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-lithium-ion-batteries-grounded-the-dreamliner/>
In your Samsung phone, the danger is not from the battery bulging. The
danger is from the battery bending. If bent, the separator can crack
or tear, which has the same effect as punching a hole in the
separator.
I'm going to leave out a potentially long rant about the damage that
can be done by a bulging LiPo battery.
>I was told by a Samsung Tech that I shouldn't charge the battery all
>the time - I usually keep the phone "plugged in" when it is not in my
>pocket - so I've been charging the current phone a bit less.
90%. The recommended cutoff is about 80% for laptops. However,
that's to extend battery life, not prevent fires. Before I can
describe the problem, I need to blame someone. As usual, it's the
manufacturer, Samsung. They have complete control over the battery
charge curve and can terminate charging at any point they consider
safe. Instead, they terminate between 4.1 and 4.2VDC, which is in the
"overcharge" region. They do this because it increases the run time
on the phone and makes marketing happy. Never mind that almost
anything that will cause a perforated separator or self heating is
dangerous.
For charge limiting, I use Accubattery:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.digibites.accubattery&hl=en_US&gl=US>
It's probably not the best and rather clumsy to use, but it works.
Also, check your battery capacity every few months using Accubattery,
under the "battery health" tab. All I do is discharge the phone to
below 15% SoC (state of charge) followed by a full charge to 100%
without interruption. If I unplug the charger during the charge, I
get to start over. A new battery shows 5000 ma-hr. After a bit over
2 years, it shows 4600 ma-hr. If this capacity test shows a drastic
drop in capacity, the battery is gone.
Incidentally, I had an identical spare phone. I bought it used on
eBay with a known marginal battery. It's currently showing 3900
ma-hr. Because of the low capacity, I got it for a good price.
>As a aside, a bulging case was my wife's excuse for me to buy her a
>new phone so, I guess, one might say there was some good features in
>Lithium batteries :-)
used things, are no longer fashionable.
John B.
Jul 21, 2023, 11:03:49 PM7/21/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 19:36:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
Well, at least "my" batteries have only swelled sufficiently to force
the rear case "cover" open a bit for the glue joint to fail, to some
extent. I say that as quite often only part of the rear case comes
loose.
Years ago a Chinese brand (I forget but may have been Huawei) had this
problem and I took it company repair shop and the girl took it "out
back" and came back in a minute and quoted me a price nearly half the
price of a new phone. I thought about that for a minute and said, "No,
I think I'll buy a new phone". The girl replied, "Yes, most people say
that." And I switched to Samsung :-)
Since then I've had a couple or three Samsung phones swell up but the
repair shops change batteries - probably not original but satisfactory
so far - for about $25 and interestingly I've never had problems with
the replacement battery :-)
Well.... Most women don't want "used junk" :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
the rear case "cover" open a bit for the glue joint to fail, to some
extent. I say that as quite often only part of the rear case comes
loose.
Years ago a Chinese brand (I forget but may have been Huawei) had this
problem and I took it company repair shop and the girl took it "out
back" and came back in a minute and quoted me a price nearly half the
price of a new phone. I thought about that for a minute and said, "No,
I think I'll buy a new phone". The girl replied, "Yes, most people say
that." And I switched to Samsung :-)
Since then I've had a couple or three Samsung phones swell up but the
repair shops change batteries - probably not original but satisfactory
so far - for about $25 and interestingly I've never had problems with
the replacement battery :-)
--
Cheers,
John B.
funkma...@hotmail.com
Jul 21, 2023, 11:40:03 PM7/21/23
to
On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 5:48:59 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:57:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 2:39:00?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >I think we've proven pretty conclusively how little Tom knows about technology in general, let alone batteries.
> Agreed. However, due to Tom's selective memory, he needs to be
> constantly reminded that he is clueless. The difficult part for me is
> reminding him without me being excessively abusive. However, I don't
> mind. I need the practice.
> >> It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
> >> and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
> >> maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
>
> >In my world of Hazardous Locations, batteries are very tightly regulated. We recently had to do some in-house testing to figure out what batteries performed best under extreme loads before we could submit the best candidates for UL to approve for our application. HazLoc forbids any lithium chemistry at this time, so we were stuck with Alkaline primaries and NiMh secondaries. It was a fun test, essentially thermocouple up a sample, switch on a 1/2 ohm load, and watch the fireworks. Most of the batteries got so hot they spewed out electrolyte, got some great video of that. Of the ones that didn't, we had exactly two that stayed below the thermal limit. One of those didn't meet our ambient requirements, so we were left with exactly one approved battery out of the nearly one dozen we tested, the Duracell MN1500.
> Sigh. That Duracell AA would be near the bottom of my list of
> acceptable batteries. I haven't done any extensive testing. What
> I've noticed by random observation is that the bulk of the alkaline
> batteries that leak are Duracell.
Our results showed the duracell to be the most reliable. None of them leaked, none of them exceeded the temperature allowed by the standard. They may may not have offered the best absolute performance, but they were the safest.
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:57:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 2:39:00?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >I think we've proven pretty conclusively how little Tom knows about technology in general, let alone batteries.
> Agreed. However, due to Tom's selective memory, he needs to be
> constantly reminded that he is clueless. The difficult part for me is
> reminding him without me being excessively abusive. However, I don't
> mind. I need the practice.
> >> It's amazing how much one learns about batteries by maintaining them
> >> and reading about how they work. You should try both of these and
> >> maybe you'll learn to ask intelligent questions.
>
> >In my world of Hazardous Locations, batteries are very tightly regulated. We recently had to do some in-house testing to figure out what batteries performed best under extreme loads before we could submit the best candidates for UL to approve for our application. HazLoc forbids any lithium chemistry at this time, so we were stuck with Alkaline primaries and NiMh secondaries. It was a fun test, essentially thermocouple up a sample, switch on a 1/2 ohm load, and watch the fireworks. Most of the batteries got so hot they spewed out electrolyte, got some great video of that. Of the ones that didn't, we had exactly two that stayed below the thermal limit. One of those didn't meet our ambient requirements, so we were left with exactly one approved battery out of the nearly one dozen we tested, the Duracell MN1500.
> Sigh. That Duracell AA would be near the bottom of my list of
> acceptable batteries. I haven't done any extensive testing. What
> I've noticed by random observation is that the bulk of the alkaline
> batteries that leak are Duracell.
> I had 64 Duracell AA batteries leak
> in the original bubble package. I can't find the photo, but here is
> the Costco Kirkland equivalent leaking in the package:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
>
> My idea of a fun test was to see how quickly I could charge various
> cells. This was in the days of NiCd and NiMH so I didn't test LiIon.
> I discovered that the cells would stay fairly cold when I was charging
> at 10C to an SoC (state of charge) of about 85% of full charge. Above
> 85%, it would rapidly get hot. As the SoC approaches 100%, the cell
> became VERY hot. I have the scorch marks on my Formica workbench to
> prove it. Of course, I couldn't resist testing for a safe upper
> limit. The cell did not catch fire, but my shop reeked of toxic
> condensates for about a week.
> Mostly, I use ATM, mini-ATM, ATX and other blade fuses. I
> saw a YouTube video which compared name brand (Bussman, Littlefuse)
> blade fuses with the no-name Chinese clone fuses found on Ebay,
> Amazon, and AliExpress. The name brand fuses would blow as expected.
> However, most of the no-name fuses I tested were far out of spec. Some
> of them never blew. In one test, I shoved 120Amps through a 50A
> ATX-Maxi blade fuse and holder. The fuse never blew, but wire
> insulation melted.
>
> Do you see why my web pile is named "LearnByDestroying.com"?
> >We learned a ton about battery chemistries and properties in those
> >tests, as you note, maybe if tommy had such experience he wouldn't
> >be making such stupid comments.
> Since Tom did not attend college, he might no realize that undergrad
> classes in college only teaches the basics. Real understand comes
> only after one has experience with the hardware or processes. Learning
> the basics by hanging out in a library isn't going to work.
> >> Reminder... how much or how little I know has no relevance to your
> >> level of expertise. You could declare me an idiot and you would still
> >> remain an abrasive incompetent who is always wrong about literally
> >> everything.
>
> >+1
> >"TDR isn't used for testing lines lines" - tom kunich
> About 7 years ago, I owned an OTDR (optical TDR) for about a week. I
> bought it at a thrift shop not knowing what it was. Before I had time
> to search the web, a friend arrives with checkbook in hand. He wanted
> it for work and didn't seem to care about the price. I paid $20 for
> it, and he bought it for $50. At the time, it was selling for about
> $1,000. Oops. He let me borrow it when I needed it, so I can't
> complain (much).
Lou Holtman
Jul 22, 2023, 2:59:09 AM7/22/23
to
Lou
Frank Krygowski
Jul 22, 2023, 10:41:47 AM7/22/23
to
On 7/22/2023 2:59 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 11:26:41 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Most of our bikes are in the basement.
>>
>
> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 11:26:41 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Most of our bikes are in the basement.
>>
>
> Do have to drag them up the stairs every time?
Yes, the back basement stairs out to the back yard. Six steps.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom Kunich
Jul 22, 2023, 11:04:12 AM7/22/23
to
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 22, 2023, 1:57:08 PM7/22/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jeff, why were you stressed if you weren't so far in over your head?
You wanted to know why I worked as a technician. I provided a
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jeff, why were you stressed if you weren't so far in over your head?
detailed answer, which you ignored. The reason I was stressed at the
time is that I had more things happening in my life than work. The
details are not for general consumption.
>Between projects I partnered with another man and we built a company installing telephones. That was about as stress free and they come. But I had a need to work on projects that matter to the world and not run from it. I used my stock options to get my mother medical care that wasn't covered by PacTel medical insurance. So I started with zero at that point. (circa 1970)., Then I made the better part of a million dollars and then lost most of it in a divorce. Then I made another million before my injury. And Flunky with the brain of an ox want to tell you and you want to believe that everyone got rich during Obama. You can tell because he and Slocomb are now millionaires thanks to Obama. That's why they elected Trump. Everyone thought that they were making too much money and needed a break.
The part about you obtaining medical care for your mother seems rather
suspicious. When I mentioned it previous, you ignored my question.
Why does your name not appear in her obituaries as a surviving
relative?
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/evsATclH8lc/m/gDiYopJHAQAJ>
01/03/2019
<https://www.grissomsmortuary.com/obituaries/detail/violet-kunich>
<https://www.echovita.com/us/obituaries/ca/san-leandro/violet-kunich-8572417>
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 22, 2023, 3:22:26 PM7/22/23
to
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 20:40:00 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 5:48:59?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > I had 64 Duracell AA batteries leak
>> in the original bubble package. I can't find the photo, but here is
>> the Costco Kirkland equivalent leaking in the package:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
>Seems like a different issue not related to active charging/discharging.
True, unless one has a problem with shelf life. That became a problem
for Duracell in about 2005(?) when they started advertising
"Guaranteed 10 years". The problem was they were leaking after as
little a 6 years. They did something, and they started leaking after
about 12 years. What was important was that it forced dealers to
unload or discount these batteries because nobody would buy a battery
that had been on the shelf for more than about two years (my guess).
Did you test any Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells?
<https://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-batteries>
I use them in places where I need good non-leaking and LSD (low self
discharge) AA cells. For example, some of my portable test equipment
(DVM, component testers, VNA, TDR, portable scope, clamp meter, etc)
that are not used very often. I've never had one leak. 20 year shelf
life. Yes, they are expensive:
<https://www.amazon.com/Energizer-Ultimate-Lithium-Size-Batteries/dp/B004EFT2BU>
If you enjoy exploding batteries:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/index.html>
The photos were taken by a friend, who accidentally shorted the
terminals. They were mailed to Duracell, where they disappeared. I
bought an identical battery, but couldn't make it explode. The one in
the photo might have been counterfeit or defective.
>The hazloc requirements for charging circuits are absolutely insane. we made a business decision to not even offer a charging circuit in the system. We had hoped to find a rechargeable battery that met the requirements, but the design requirements (nre + regulatory review) were beyond the cost effective models for the product.
Not providing a charger eliminates liability for charger related
problems. If liability exposure for exploding batteries suddenly
became an issue in the smartphone sector, I would expect to see the
return of removable phone batteries and external chargers.
>> If the battery and charger fail to kill me, there's always the inline
>> DC fuse.
>
>Welcome to the world of Intrinsic Safety :)
Been there, but as a user. I still have a random pieces of a
beryllium copper tool kit.
>The HazLoc Intrinsic Safety requirement for fuses is 1.7 times the fuse rating. Got a circuit with a 1 amp fuse? Great! Let's put 1.7 amps through it and see how hot it gets!
I didn't know they made HaxLoc SMT fuses:
<https://www.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=93c5c3b8-8050-43c1-92d9-7480c55a2aeb&filename=littelfuse-fuse-308-datasheet>
Looks like they specify the nominal melting point. It's hard to read
the average time-current curve for a 1A fuse. My visual guess is that
it will never blow at 1.7A.
>I was hired in my current company originally as a Test Engineer. About a year in, the lead firmware engineer told my boss "I can't deliver the code on time if this guy keeps breaking it".
I like that. If I was still working, I would have that quote printed,
framed, and hung somewhere in my office.
I spent a miserable 3 months pretending to be the QA department. At
several points, I was reminded that my job was NOT to prevent the
shipment of "working" products. During this time, I was still working
on various products. I soon found myself having to pass judgement on
my own products. I had a reversible baseball cap with QA on one side,
and Engineer on the other.
>> Since Tom did not attend college, he might no realize that undergrad
>> classes in college only teaches the basics. Real understand comes
>> only after one has experience with the hardware or processes. Learning
>> the basics by hanging out in a library isn't going to work.
>
>especially when he keeps claiming he "read out three libraries".
I wonder which books he actually read in a library. The only times
when the library shelves were full was in summer, when there were
fewer classes in session. At other times, the popular and up to date
books were either all checked out or reserved by someone. All that
was left were really old and obsolete books. One of the major reasons
to join a fraternity was that they had their own library of books. I
was lucky. At Cal Poly, Pomona, textbooks were rotated approximately
every 5 years, so it was possible to resell last years books at almost
full price. After the college was accredited, the books were rotated
more frequently. However, I was gone when that happened.
>Don't take this the wrong way, but I suspect you complain a lot about a lot of things :)
Not as much as one might expect. Instead of complaining, I like to
provide observations, both good and bad. If my audience/target
prefers to consider my observations as criticism, it's their problem,
not mine. Criticism tends to make one a target. Observation also
does that, but not as often or as bad. For example, I would attend
design review meetings and say very little. Eventually, someone would
make the mistake of asking me what I thought. I would pull out my
notes and unload a long list of problems. After a while, I was
invited NOT to attend meetings.
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 5:48:59?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > I had 64 Duracell AA batteries leak
>> in the original bubble package. I can't find the photo, but here is
>> the Costco Kirkland equivalent leaking in the package:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
>Seems like a different issue not related to active charging/discharging.
for Duracell in about 2005(?) when they started advertising
"Guaranteed 10 years". The problem was they were leaking after as
little a 6 years. They did something, and they started leaking after
about 12 years. What was important was that it forced dealers to
unload or discount these batteries because nobody would buy a battery
that had been on the shelf for more than about two years (my guess).
Did you test any Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells?
<https://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-batteries>
I use them in places where I need good non-leaking and LSD (low self
discharge) AA cells. For example, some of my portable test equipment
(DVM, component testers, VNA, TDR, portable scope, clamp meter, etc)
that are not used very often. I've never had one leak. 20 year shelf
life. Yes, they are expensive:
<https://www.amazon.com/Energizer-Ultimate-Lithium-Size-Batteries/dp/B004EFT2BU>
If you enjoy exploding batteries:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/index.html>
The photos were taken by a friend, who accidentally shorted the
terminals. They were mailed to Duracell, where they disappeared. I
bought an identical battery, but couldn't make it explode. The one in
the photo might have been counterfeit or defective.
>The hazloc requirements for charging circuits are absolutely insane. we made a business decision to not even offer a charging circuit in the system. We had hoped to find a rechargeable battery that met the requirements, but the design requirements (nre + regulatory review) were beyond the cost effective models for the product.
problems. If liability exposure for exploding batteries suddenly
became an issue in the smartphone sector, I would expect to see the
return of removable phone batteries and external chargers.
>> If the battery and charger fail to kill me, there's always the inline
>> DC fuse.
>
>Welcome to the world of Intrinsic Safety :)
beryllium copper tool kit.
>The HazLoc Intrinsic Safety requirement for fuses is 1.7 times the fuse rating. Got a circuit with a 1 amp fuse? Great! Let's put 1.7 amps through it and see how hot it gets!
<https://www.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=93c5c3b8-8050-43c1-92d9-7480c55a2aeb&filename=littelfuse-fuse-308-datasheet>
Looks like they specify the nominal melting point. It's hard to read
the average time-current curve for a 1A fuse. My visual guess is that
it will never blow at 1.7A.
>I was hired in my current company originally as a Test Engineer. About a year in, the lead firmware engineer told my boss "I can't deliver the code on time if this guy keeps breaking it".
framed, and hung somewhere in my office.
I spent a miserable 3 months pretending to be the QA department. At
several points, I was reminded that my job was NOT to prevent the
shipment of "working" products. During this time, I was still working
on various products. I soon found myself having to pass judgement on
my own products. I had a reversible baseball cap with QA on one side,
and Engineer on the other.
>> Since Tom did not attend college, he might no realize that undergrad
>> classes in college only teaches the basics. Real understand comes
>> only after one has experience with the hardware or processes. Learning
>> the basics by hanging out in a library isn't going to work.
>
>especially when he keeps claiming he "read out three libraries".
when the library shelves were full was in summer, when there were
fewer classes in session. At other times, the popular and up to date
books were either all checked out or reserved by someone. All that
was left were really old and obsolete books. One of the major reasons
to join a fraternity was that they had their own library of books. I
was lucky. At Cal Poly, Pomona, textbooks were rotated approximately
every 5 years, so it was possible to resell last years books at almost
full price. After the college was accredited, the books were rotated
more frequently. However, I was gone when that happened.
>Don't take this the wrong way, but I suspect you complain a lot about a lot of things :)
provide observations, both good and bad. If my audience/target
prefers to consider my observations as criticism, it's their problem,
not mine. Criticism tends to make one a target. Observation also
does that, but not as often or as bad. For example, I would attend
design review meetings and say very little. Eventually, someone would
make the mistake of asking me what I thought. I would pull out my
notes and unload a long list of problems. After a while, I was
invited NOT to attend meetings.
Tom Kunich
Jul 22, 2023, 4:06:07 PM7/22/23
to
You were stressed out because you were in so far over your head trying to be an engineer that you were close to a heart attack. I saw it plenty with people like you and Flunky.
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 22, 2023, 5:18:33 PM7/22/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 13:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:57:08?AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Jeff, why were you stressed if you weren't so far in over your head?
>> You wanted to know why I worked as a technician. I provided a
>> detailed answer, which you ignored. The reason I was stressed at the
>> time is that I had more things happening in my life than work. The
>> details are not for general consumption.
>> >Between projects I partnered with another man and we built a company installing telephones. That was about as stress free and they come. But I had a need to work on projects that matter to the world and not run from it. I used my stock options to get my mother medical care that wasn't covered by PacTel medical insurance. So I started with zero at that point. (circa 1970)., Then I made the better part of a million dollars and then lost most of it in a divorce. Then I made another million before my injury. And Flunky with the brain of an ox want to tell you and you want to believe that everyone got rich during Obama. You can tell because he and Slocomb are now millionaires thanks to Obama. That's why they elected Trump. Everyone thought that they were making too much money and needed a break.
>> Nice fairy tale. Due to your history of lying, I don't believe it.
>>
>> The part about you obtaining medical care for your mother seems rather
>> suspicious. When I mentioned it previous, you ignored my question.
>> Why does your name not appear in her obituaries as a surviving
>> relative?
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/evsATclH8lc/m/gDiYopJHAQAJ>
>> 01/03/2019
>> <https://www.grissomsmortuary.com/obituaries/detail/violet-kunich>
>> <https://www.echovita.com/us/obituaries/ca/san-leandro/violet-kunich-8572417>
>After explaining, what, dozens of times that Kunich is an
>extremely common slav name none of whom are interrelated,
>you pick a random Kunich and claim that she is somehow related.
>Really showing your class there. Is there another stupid
>comment you can make all by yourself? Or do you need Flunky
>to select something dumb enough for you to comment on?
The two obituaries show that she lived in San Leandro, was born in
Croatia and had two other male children, which you've occasionally
mentioned. The house you live in was previously her house. All that
is too much to be an "extremely common slav name" coincidence.
As for Kunich being a common name, I found only two people in San
Leandro, CA named Kunich. Tom and John, who according to the
obituaries, is probably your brother. John A Kunich would be your
father:
<https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10002-88144066/john-a-kunich-in-us-social-security-death-index-ssdi?
>You were stressed out because you were in so far over your
>head trying to be an engineer that you were close to a heart
>attack. I saw it plenty with people like you and Flunky.
Nope. My decision to go into computer repair occurred in 1984. I
didn't have a heart attack. I had triple bypass surgery to prevent a
heart attack in 2001 (17 year later). Other than kidney stones, I
didn't have any medical problems prior to 2001. I suspected that I
might eventually have cardiovascular problems from my family history.
It worried me some when I first found out, but that didn't cause any
stress.
Score: 1 claim, zero correct.
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 10:57:08?AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Jeff, why were you stressed if you weren't so far in over your head?
>> You wanted to know why I worked as a technician. I provided a
>> detailed answer, which you ignored. The reason I was stressed at the
>> time is that I had more things happening in my life than work. The
>> details are not for general consumption.
>> >Between projects I partnered with another man and we built a company installing telephones. That was about as stress free and they come. But I had a need to work on projects that matter to the world and not run from it. I used my stock options to get my mother medical care that wasn't covered by PacTel medical insurance. So I started with zero at that point. (circa 1970)., Then I made the better part of a million dollars and then lost most of it in a divorce. Then I made another million before my injury. And Flunky with the brain of an ox want to tell you and you want to believe that everyone got rich during Obama. You can tell because he and Slocomb are now millionaires thanks to Obama. That's why they elected Trump. Everyone thought that they were making too much money and needed a break.
>> Nice fairy tale. Due to your history of lying, I don't believe it.
>>
>> The part about you obtaining medical care for your mother seems rather
>> suspicious. When I mentioned it previous, you ignored my question.
>> Why does your name not appear in her obituaries as a surviving
>> relative?
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/evsATclH8lc/m/gDiYopJHAQAJ>
>> 01/03/2019
>> <https://www.grissomsmortuary.com/obituaries/detail/violet-kunich>
>> <https://www.echovita.com/us/obituaries/ca/san-leandro/violet-kunich-8572417>
>I do find you comical.
I find you tragic.
>After explaining, what, dozens of times that Kunich is an
>extremely common slav name none of whom are interrelated,
>you pick a random Kunich and claim that she is somehow related.
>Really showing your class there. Is there another stupid
>comment you can make all by yourself? Or do you need Flunky
>to select something dumb enough for you to comment on?
Croatia and had two other male children, which you've occasionally
mentioned. The house you live in was previously her house. All that
is too much to be an "extremely common slav name" coincidence.
As for Kunich being a common name, I found only two people in San
Leandro, CA named Kunich. Tom and John, who according to the
obituaries, is probably your brother. John A Kunich would be your
father:
<https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10002-88144066/john-a-kunich-in-us-social-security-death-index-ssdi?
>You were stressed out because you were in so far over your
>head trying to be an engineer that you were close to a heart
>attack. I saw it plenty with people like you and Flunky.
didn't have a heart attack. I had triple bypass surgery to prevent a
heart attack in 2001 (17 year later). Other than kidney stones, I
didn't have any medical problems prior to 2001. I suspected that I
might eventually have cardiovascular problems from my family history.
It worried me some when I first found out, but that didn't cause any
stress.
Score: 1 claim, zero correct.
Tom Kunich
Jul 22, 2023, 5:35:08 PM7/22/23
to
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 22, 2023, 5:40:09 PM7/22/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 14:18:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
the name of both your father and brother. From the MyHeritage link
(above), your father's name was John A Kunich and he died in 1987.
Yet, you claim to have two brothers, one of which you claim worked for
Southern Pacific. It would seem that your father has magically become
your 2nd brother. Could you please untangle this mess?
05/23/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/yrUBh48nqL8/m/m3DjwtQ4AAAJ>
"I have two brothers that believed the shit the Democrats were passing
out and never saved ONE cent for their retirements. Then they both
retired and my older brother is living on social security despite my
continued nagging him to put money away (he often worked two jobs with
his main job the Southern Pacific Railroad and the union telling him
he would have a rich retirement)."
wrote:
>>> Why does your name not appear in her obituaries as a surviving
>>> relative?
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/evsATclH8lc/m/gDiYopJHAQAJ>
>>> 01/03/2019
>>> <https://www.grissomsmortuary.com/obituaries/detail/violet-kunich>
>>> <https://www.echovita.com/us/obituaries/ca/san-leandro/violet-kunich-8572417>
>>> relative?
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/evsATclH8lc/m/gDiYopJHAQAJ>
>>> 01/03/2019
>>> <https://www.grissomsmortuary.com/obituaries/detail/violet-kunich>
>>> <https://www.echovita.com/us/obituaries/ca/san-leandro/violet-kunich-8572417>
>As for Kunich being a common name, I found only two people in San
>Leandro, CA named Kunich. Tom and John, who according to the
>obituaries, is probably your brother. John A Kunich would be your
>father:
><https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10002-88144066/john-a-kunich-in-us-social-security-death-index-ssdi?
I'm a little confused here. The obituaries show that John Kunich was
>Leandro, CA named Kunich. Tom and John, who according to the
>obituaries, is probably your brother. John A Kunich would be your
>father:
><https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-10002-88144066/john-a-kunich-in-us-social-security-death-index-ssdi?
the name of both your father and brother. From the MyHeritage link
(above), your father's name was John A Kunich and he died in 1987.
Yet, you claim to have two brothers, one of which you claim worked for
Southern Pacific. It would seem that your father has magically become
your 2nd brother. Could you please untangle this mess?
05/23/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/yrUBh48nqL8/m/m3DjwtQ4AAAJ>
"I have two brothers that believed the shit the Democrats were passing
out and never saved ONE cent for their retirements. Then they both
retired and my older brother is living on social security despite my
continued nagging him to put money away (he often worked two jobs with
his main job the Southern Pacific Railroad and the union telling him
he would have a rich retirement)."
Tom Kunich
Jul 22, 2023, 5:44:29 PM7/22/23
to
John B.
Jul 22, 2023, 6:44:01 PM7/22/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 14:44:26 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
You know Tommy, all your jumping about and shouting is senseless.
Nobody blames you for anything... other then being a liar.
--
Cheers,
John B.
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody blames you for anything... other then being a liar.
--
Cheers,
John B.
John B.
Jul 22, 2023, 7:27:17 PM7/22/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 10:56:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
The company installing telephones does seem a bit strange. I had a
number of telephones installed over the years and, always, the guy
installing the phone worked for the telephone company. Not some
independent company.
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
number of telephones installed over the years and, always, the guy
installing the phone worked for the telephone company. Not some
independent company.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 22, 2023, 8:42:11 PM7/22/23
to
On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 06:27:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carterfone>
which forced AT&T (the local phone monopoly) to tolerate "foreign"
connections and equipment. (I'll use the term AT&T to refer to the
local phone monopoly, which might be a different monopoly in some
areas).
The result was a large number of independent small carriers, equipment
vendors, installers, and service organizations. Prior to 1968,
everything was done by AT&T and all the wires, poles, and equipment
were made by Western Electric.
About 10 years ago, I had been paying a small amount to AT&T for
inside repair service. I hadn't need it for the previous 40 years.
When a tree branch ripped down the drop from the pole, I decided to
take advantage of the service and also have AT&T install a newer MPoE
(minimum point of entry) box and replace some easily accessible
cabling that I was too lazy to replace. I won't say anything nice
about the service. I immediately cancelled my inside repair service.
A few years later, I switched to VoIP via the internet and cancelled
everything with AT&T. So much for official AT&T on-site service.
Most of the time, when someone calls for AT&T service, the van that
arrives does not say AT&T on the side. It's usually a private
contractor or even a sub-contractor. Over the last 10 years, AT&T has
contracted out all its on site installation and repair work. Only the
frame and system maintenance are done by AT&T employees. AT&T is
moving to a business model where the only thing they do is write
contracts and everything else is through contractors.
At the same time, many new buildings were pre-wired by the builders.
That meant that all the wiring belongs to the building owner, not
AT&T. AT&T provided the cabling or fiber to the CO (central office),
while the building owner does everything else. PABX (private branch
exchanges) became very popular because they reduced costs. The
building owner would then hire contractors and service providers to
install, configure, maintain, program, repair, etc the devices in the
building. Tom's "company installing telephones" was one of these
contractors.
wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 10:56:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Between projects I partnered with another man and we built a company installing telephones. That was about as stress free and they come. But I had a need to work on projects that matter to the world and not run from it. I used my stock options to get my mother medical care that wasn't covered by PacTel medical insurance. So I started with zero at that point. (circa 1970)., Then I made the better part of a million dollars and then lost most of it in a divorce. Then I made another million before my injury. And Flunky with the brain of an ox want to tell you and you want to believe that everyone got rich during Obama. You can tell because he and Slocomb are now millionaires thanks to Obama. That's why they elected Trump. Everyone thought that they were making too much money and needed a break.
>On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 10:56:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Between projects I partnered with another man and we built a company installing telephones. That was about as stress free and they come. But I had a need to work on projects that matter to the world and not run from it. I used my stock options to get my mother medical care that wasn't covered by PacTel medical insurance. So I started with zero at that point. (circa 1970)., Then I made the better part of a million dollars and then lost most of it in a divorce. Then I made another million before my injury. And Flunky with the brain of an ox want to tell you and you want to believe that everyone got rich during Obama. You can tell because he and Slocomb are now millionaires thanks to Obama. That's why they elected Trump. Everyone thought that they were making too much money and needed a break.
>The company installing telephones does seem a bit strange. I had a
>number of telephones installed over the years and, always, the guy
>installing the phone worked for the telephone company. Not some
>independent company.
Times have changed starting with the Carterfone decision,
>number of telephones installed over the years and, always, the guy
>installing the phone worked for the telephone company. Not some
>independent company.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carterfone>
which forced AT&T (the local phone monopoly) to tolerate "foreign"
connections and equipment. (I'll use the term AT&T to refer to the
local phone monopoly, which might be a different monopoly in some
areas).
The result was a large number of independent small carriers, equipment
vendors, installers, and service organizations. Prior to 1968,
everything was done by AT&T and all the wires, poles, and equipment
were made by Western Electric.
About 10 years ago, I had been paying a small amount to AT&T for
inside repair service. I hadn't need it for the previous 40 years.
When a tree branch ripped down the drop from the pole, I decided to
take advantage of the service and also have AT&T install a newer MPoE
(minimum point of entry) box and replace some easily accessible
cabling that I was too lazy to replace. I won't say anything nice
about the service. I immediately cancelled my inside repair service.
A few years later, I switched to VoIP via the internet and cancelled
everything with AT&T. So much for official AT&T on-site service.
Most of the time, when someone calls for AT&T service, the van that
arrives does not say AT&T on the side. It's usually a private
contractor or even a sub-contractor. Over the last 10 years, AT&T has
contracted out all its on site installation and repair work. Only the
frame and system maintenance are done by AT&T employees. AT&T is
moving to a business model where the only thing they do is write
contracts and everything else is through contractors.
At the same time, many new buildings were pre-wired by the builders.
That meant that all the wiring belongs to the building owner, not
AT&T. AT&T provided the cabling or fiber to the CO (central office),
while the building owner does everything else. PABX (private branch
exchanges) became very popular because they reduced costs. The
building owner would then hire contractors and service providers to
install, configure, maintain, program, repair, etc the devices in the
building. Tom's "company installing telephones" was one of these
contractors.
John B.
Jul 22, 2023, 9:36:52 PM7/22/23
to
On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 17:41:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
Interesting. Of course I haven't had any experience in the U.S. for 50
year or more so my concepts are certainly out dated.
--
Cheers,
John B.
year or more so my concepts are certainly out dated.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Tom Kunich
Jul 23, 2023, 5:48:39 PM7/23/23
to
My partner and myself could install large systems in high-rise office buildings for 2/3rds the price of AT&T, never have a problem with them and each of us would make $200,000 a year with rave reviews. I would wire the building from the phone room (street lines to the building) to the correct floor and my partner would install the phone systems on that floor from phone room for that floor to all of the necessary offices and work spaces.
But I was used to making a difference in people lives and health and when offered another medical job arose, I took it. I trained a man to do my job, or so I thought, and all seemed well for awhile until something required thought, like how do you wire a 24th floor phone room to the basement phone room when the wire rolls are only long enough for 12 floors. (13 floors short)
John B.
Jul 23, 2023, 6:52:07 PM7/23/23
to
On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
All I can say is that when I lived in Riverside, CA, I wanted
additional phones installed in the house and called the phone company.
They sent a bloke, who said he worked for the phone company, to
install the second phone and run the new wiring, and I remember that
he was complaining about some woman that had demanded to be a
telephone "lineman" and how she wasn't strong enough to do the job, so
I assume he really was a telephone company employee and not some
"outsider".
--
Cheers,
John B.
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
additional phones installed in the house and called the phone company.
They sent a bloke, who said he worked for the phone company, to
install the second phone and run the new wiring, and I remember that
he was complaining about some woman that had demanded to be a
telephone "lineman" and how she wasn't strong enough to do the job, so
I assume he really was a telephone company employee and not some
"outsider".
--
Cheers,
John B.
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 23, 2023, 8:02:21 PM7/23/23
to
On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 14:48:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>There wasn't a handy Google article about private telephone
>systems so Slocomb had to use his own brain. Meaning his
>stupidity showed like a spotlight in a dark room. Since
>telephone lines are on PUBLIC right-of-way, they are
>public property and can be used by anyone. AT&T installation
>crews for large office systems usually don't know what
>they're doing so large office systems are very badly done
>and are expensive and have large maintenance bills.
Wrong. AT&T never did inside building wiring except for the MPOE,
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>There wasn't a handy Google article about private telephone
>systems so Slocomb had to use his own brain. Meaning his
>stupidity showed like a spotlight in a dark room. Since
>telephone lines are on PUBLIC right-of-way, they are
>public property and can be used by anyone. AT&T installation
>crews for large office systems usually don't know what
>they're doing so large office systems are very badly done
>and are expensive and have large maintenance bills.
where their wires entered the building. AT&T, or more commonly the
building owners, hired wiring contractors. You got one thing right.
AT&T installs were VERY expensive.
Before AT&T began contracting out just about everything, quality
varied between very good and not so good, but I saw nothing that was
really horrible. However, as bidding on such jobs became a race to
the bottom, quality of the work and materials suffered.
I don't have any photos of AT&T workmanship. This is a 2004 photo
after multiple contractors added their cables:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Phone%20Room%20Before.jpg>
This is after I cleaned up the mess (it took a full week):
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Phone%20Room%20After.jpg>
The building was sold in 2016. The phone rooms were a mess after
multiple contractors added their cables.
No, telephone lines are not public property, although they might be
located on municipal property. Telephone, Cable data and power
utilities obtain easements from either the property owners or the
local governments. The easement does not convey any property rights
to the general public or some random contractor that wants to hang
wires on the poles. Whether the poles or underground conduit are
owned by the telco or power utility, contractors must get approval
from all the utilities on the poles before doing any work is started.
Engineering studies for line loading (weight), pole condition,
proximity to other services, code compliance, weed control, etc are
required.
>My partner and myself could install large systems in high-rise office buildings for 2/3rds the price of AT&T, never have a problem with them and each of us would make $200,000 a year with rave reviews. I would wire the building from the phone room (street lines to the building) to the correct floor and my partner would install the phone systems on that floor from phone room for that floor to all of the necessary offices and work spaces.
>
>But I was used to making a difference in people lives and health and when offered another medical job arose, I took it. I trained a man to do my job, or so I thought, and all seemed well for awhile until something required thought, like how do you wire a 24th floor phone room to the basement phone room when the wire rolls are only long enough for 12 floors. (13 floors short)
directly above each other with conduit or raceways going to the floor
above and below. For long runs, the limiting factor is the weight of
the cable. Too long an unsupported cable run and the weight of the
cable will rip out connections and connectors. The typical practice
is to install Type 110 (or the older Type 66) punch down blocks every
few floors, with cable clamps and hangers to secure the cables. I
don't recall the maximum length but I think it was about 72 ft or 6
floors between blocks. 25 floors would require 5 blocks. When I
installed something similar in a 4 story building, I put service loops
on the floors where there were no blocks. That way, should a company
move from one floor to another, I could install the necessary block
and not have to deal with replacing the two interconnecting cables.
You should find the applicable NEC code requirements for phone wiring
under NFPA 70 Article 800 (and other 8xx articles) for Communications
Circuits
<https://link.nfpa.org/free-access/publications/70/2023>
Tom: Were you BICSI certified to do this kind of work? It's not a
requirement, but does prove that you understand how such things are
done.
<https://www.bicsi.org>
From your failure to use common industry terminology, I suspect that
you never saw the inside of a phone room.
Jeff Liebermann
Jul 23, 2023, 8:21:40 PM7/23/23
to
On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 05:52:00 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
The "Lift and Carry" requirement is something like 30 lbs for working
on the ground and 50 lbs for working aloft. Some agencies require 100
lbs such as:
<https://agency.governmentjobs.com/sandiego/default.cfm?action=specbulletin&ClassSpecID=770155&headerfooter=0>
"Apprentice I - Communications Technician employees may be required to
work at heights over 100 feet or to lift and carry items weighing up
to 100 pounds."
Typical is more like 80 lbs. Such requirements vary by state, county,
municipality, agency, company, insurance requirements, etc, etc, etc.
Of course, they could outsource the work to China:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>
wrote:
>All I can say is that when I lived in Riverside, CA, I wanted
>additional phones installed in the house and called the phone company.
>They sent a bloke, who said he worked for the phone company, to
>install the second phone and run the new wiring, and I remember that
>he was complaining about some woman that had demanded to be a
>telephone "lineman" and how she wasn't strong enough to do the job, so
>I assume he really was a telephone company employee and not some
>"outsider".
That must have been a long time ago.
>additional phones installed in the house and called the phone company.
>They sent a bloke, who said he worked for the phone company, to
>install the second phone and run the new wiring, and I remember that
>he was complaining about some woman that had demanded to be a
>telephone "lineman" and how she wasn't strong enough to do the job, so
>I assume he really was a telephone company employee and not some
>"outsider".
The "Lift and Carry" requirement is something like 30 lbs for working
on the ground and 50 lbs for working aloft. Some agencies require 100
lbs such as:
<https://agency.governmentjobs.com/sandiego/default.cfm?action=specbulletin&ClassSpecID=770155&headerfooter=0>
"Apprentice I - Communications Technician employees may be required to
work at heights over 100 feet or to lift and carry items weighing up
to 100 pounds."
Typical is more like 80 lbs. Such requirements vary by state, county,
municipality, agency, company, insurance requirements, etc, etc, etc.
Of course, they could outsource the work to China:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>
funkma...@hotmail.com
Jul 23, 2023, 8:28:06 PM7/23/23
to
AMuzi
Jul 23, 2023, 9:06:54 PM7/23/23
to
(or GTE in areas I lived briefly) monopoly, residential
wiring was done by the Bell guys at obscene rates.
Telephones were rented, not sold.
There was a lively black market in telephones and I had
several, did my own installations, phone in every room.
One of my brothers who had some serious alcohol and drug
habits at the time was a Bell telephone installer. He said
'Four colors; I can do those in my sleep'.
Post Bell breakup independent telephone and computer wiring
was busy and lucrative for young people with hustle. One of
my exes ran a wiring crew and made a good living at that
without pulling wires herself.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
John B.
Jul 24, 2023, 3:34:40 AM7/24/23
to
On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 17:21:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 05:52:00 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>All I can say is that when I lived in Riverside, CA, I wanted
>>additional phones installed in the house and called the phone company.
>>They sent a bloke, who said he worked for the phone company, to
>>install the second phone and run the new wiring, and I remember that
>>he was complaining about some woman that had demanded to be a
>>telephone "lineman" and how she wasn't strong enough to do the job, so
>>I assume he really was a telephone company employee and not some
>>"outsider".
>
>That must have been a long time ago.
>
>The "Lift and Carry" requirement is something like 30 lbs for working
>on the ground and 50 lbs for working aloft. Some agencies require 100
>lbs such as:
><https://agency.governmentjobs.com/sandiego/default.cfm?action=specbulletin&ClassSpecID=770155&headerfooter=0>
>"Apprentice I - Communications Technician employees may be required to
>work at heights over 100 feet or to lift and carry items weighing up
>to 100 pounds."
>
>Typical is more like 80 lbs. Such requirements vary by state, county,
>municipality, agency, company, insurance requirements, etc, etc, etc.
>
>Of course, they could outsource the work to China:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>
It was a long time ago but as I remember the story the girl wanted to
become a "lineman". the company said NO! and she threatened a law suit
about ill treatment because she was a female. The company took the
easy road and said, "O.K. you are a lineman". The complaint, or maybe
ridicule, apparently by the working folk was that she wasn't strong to
handle the work and so the company always had to send a male lineman
with her when she worked "up the pole".
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 05:52:00 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>All I can say is that when I lived in Riverside, CA, I wanted
>>additional phones installed in the house and called the phone company.
>>They sent a bloke, who said he worked for the phone company, to
>>install the second phone and run the new wiring, and I remember that
>>he was complaining about some woman that had demanded to be a
>>telephone "lineman" and how she wasn't strong enough to do the job, so
>>I assume he really was a telephone company employee and not some
>>"outsider".
>
>That must have been a long time ago.
>
>The "Lift and Carry" requirement is something like 30 lbs for working
>on the ground and 50 lbs for working aloft. Some agencies require 100
>lbs such as:
><https://agency.governmentjobs.com/sandiego/default.cfm?action=specbulletin&ClassSpecID=770155&headerfooter=0>
>"Apprentice I - Communications Technician employees may be required to
>work at heights over 100 feet or to lift and carry items weighing up
>to 100 pounds."
>
>Typical is more like 80 lbs. Such requirements vary by state, county,
>municipality, agency, company, insurance requirements, etc, etc, etc.
>
>Of course, they could outsource the work to China:
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/Comrade-Ma-Bell-01.jpg>
become a "lineman". the company said NO! and she threatened a law suit
about ill treatment because she was a female. The company took the
easy road and said, "O.K. you are a lineman". The complaint, or maybe
ridicule, apparently by the working folk was that she wasn't strong to
handle the work and so the company always had to send a male lineman
with her when she worked "up the pole".
--
Cheers,
John B.
Roger Meriman
Jul 24, 2023, 4:52:47 AM7/24/23
to
Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 06:56:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
where not or at least at the same rate!
>
> Tom - Do a pre-emptive battery transplant.
>
> Tom's Samsung S51 5G (2020) is the same age as my Moto G Power (2020).
> Both are "obsolete" because both Samsung and Motorola only provide
> updates for 2 years. The S51 is a nice phone, with features slightly
> better than mine, but cost Tom 3 times as much.
Seems to be a android thing, ie fairly short support with feature updates
and then security updates, possibly as well they only sell the hardware.
>
>> But, "not in my house"? Do you keep your hand phone out on the porch?
>
> I keep a spare (identical) phone in my car. It gets rather hot.
> Oh-oh.
>
> "What to do with a swollen battery"
> <https://www.ifixit.com/Wiki/What_to_do_with_a_swollen_battery>
>
> Note: I have a collection of LiIon cells and batteries. I keep them
> in steel tool boxes. That won't prevent a fire from melting the
> toolbox, but will slow it down enough for me to toss it into a nearby
> ash pit.
>
> More Samsung oddities, this time the camera:
> "How Samsung Phones are "Faking" their Photos."
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKYJ-gwGLXQ> (10:32)
>
>
I do recall years back someone online took apart some of the cheap 1
billion type MTB lights battery packs and a number where horrific bad!
The lights where for what they are as long as you ignore the ludicrous
power claims apparently fine but the batteries no so much!
Hence I bought a slightly more expensive ones that had been certified and
so on.
Still have it somewhere!
Roger Merriman
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 06:56:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them
>>> in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they
>>> claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and
>>> many reasons to.
>
>> But Tommy, aren't lithium-ion batteries used in hand phones?
>> My Samsung phones certainly do.
>
> Tom has a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW SM-A516V Android smartphone. 4500
> ma-hr LiIon non-removable battery.
>
> "Samsung phones are Blowing Up - Here’s Why."
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfM0GqsIB6c>
> The video mentions that only Samsung phones older than 3 years have
> bulging battery problems. It's allegedly caused by decomposing
> electrolyte:
I do remember even at the time was clearly a design flaw ie other phones
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't like lithium ion batteries and would not have them
>>> in my house. But it solid state batteries deliver all they
>>> claim to, there's no reason not to have electric cars and
>>> many reasons to.
>
>> But Tommy, aren't lithium-ion batteries used in hand phones?
>> My Samsung phones certainly do.
>
> Tom has a Samsung Galaxy A51 5G UW SM-A516V Android smartphone. 4500
> ma-hr LiIon non-removable battery.
>
> "Samsung phones are Blowing Up - Here’s Why."
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfM0GqsIB6c>
> The video mentions that only Samsung phones older than 3 years have
> bulging battery problems. It's allegedly caused by decomposing
> electrolyte:
where not or at least at the same rate!
>
> Tom - Do a pre-emptive battery transplant.
>
> Tom's Samsung S51 5G (2020) is the same age as my Moto G Power (2020).
> Both are "obsolete" because both Samsung and Motorola only provide
> updates for 2 years. The S51 is a nice phone, with features slightly
> better than mine, but cost Tom 3 times as much.
Seems to be a android thing, ie fairly short support with feature updates
and then security updates, possibly as well they only sell the hardware.
>
>> But, "not in my house"? Do you keep your hand phone out on the porch?
>
> I keep a spare (identical) phone in my car. It gets rather hot.
> Oh-oh.
>
> "What to do with a swollen battery"
> <https://www.ifixit.com/Wiki/What_to_do_with_a_swollen_battery>
>
> Note: I have a collection of LiIon cells and batteries. I keep them
> in steel tool boxes. That won't prevent a fire from melting the
> toolbox, but will slow it down enough for me to toss it into a nearby
> ash pit.
>
> More Samsung oddities, this time the camera:
> "How Samsung Phones are "Faking" their Photos."
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKYJ-gwGLXQ> (10:32)
>
>
I do recall years back someone online took apart some of the cheap 1
billion type MTB lights battery packs and a number where horrific bad!
The lights where for what they are as long as you ignore the ludicrous
power claims apparently fine but the batteries no so much!
Hence I bought a slightly more expensive ones that had been certified and
so on.
Still have it somewhere!
Roger Merriman
Tom Kunich
Jul 24, 2023, 11:03:05 AM7/24/23
to
Tom Kunich
Jul 24, 2023, 11:04:53 AM7/24/23
to
0 new messages