ASD and Flying Gliders

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I would like to have some experienced people to opine on this situation. Mom or Dad brings their son or daughter to the gliderport to become involved with the youth program. The individual is enrolled in the program with no known information about the autistic background that the youth is challenged with.
As training goes forward this autistic behavior is noticed and the parent finally reveals the ASD diagnosis and offers very little information regarding medications being taken. The parent is very cognizant that there is no medical required for glider piloting and goes to the point to make reference to discrimination that the child has been exposed to.
I have relied on an AME and a family member who is a MD, each has given me words of wisdom from the medical field. I will not second guess that wisdom. I guess it comes down to the big question, solo or not to solo?
Old Bob, The Purist

[metca...@gmail.com]

I'm no medical guru, but as far as I'm aware, medication is not normally part of any treatment for autism - although it may be used for specific behavioural traits, such as irritability.
You may find of interest an R.A.S. thread of about a year ago: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/5NrRN0rsXCc/m/ROrzVuncAwAJ
J.

[Rakel]

From the FAA:

If you are going to pilot a balloon or glider, you don't need a medical certificate.
All you need to do is write a statement certifying that you have no medical defect
that would make you unable to pilot a balloon or glider.

I would assume that somebody must sign the statement, so the responsibility is on the person who signed the statement.

There is a list of medications that the FAA says will ground a pilot.
It is not clear to me if the same list applies to glider pilots, but this list of medications are there for a good reason.

Finally, the ultimate responsibility of solo or not is up to the CFI-G. Does the student pilot have the skills necessary to pilot a glider?

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Rakel, I can only guess that the approved medications are Risperidone, and Aripipirazole, not being information by the parent as to the medications being prescribed to the individual it makes things difficult. I have informed our instructors that there needs to be a letter from the subjects MD that states that the individual in question is approved for solo flight. Old Bob, The Purist

[Rakel]

Bob,

We run into privacy issues when we publicly discuss someone's prescribed medications. I recommend just handing the parents a list of all the FAA medications that will ground a pilot. Let the parents take the responsibility for reviewing their child's medication list.

[2G]

On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 5:27:19 PM UTC-8, Rakel wrote:
> Bob,
>
> We run into privacy issues when we publicly discuss someone's prescribed medications. I recommend just handing the parents a list of all the FAA medications that will ground a pilot. Let the parents take the responsibility for reviewing their child's medication list.

I would provide the parents with the FAA's Do Not Issue and Do Not Fly medications list (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/pharm/dni_dnf/) and let them make the decision given the privacy concerns. Other than that all you can do is evaluate his performance like any other student.

Tom

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 2, 2022 at 8:27:19 PM UTC-5, Rakel wrote:
> Bob,
>
> We run into privacy issues when we publicly discuss someone's prescribed medications. I recommend just handing the parents a list of all the FAA medications that will ground a pilot. Let the parents take the responsibility for reviewing their child's medication list.

Rakel, I do understand the privacy issue, but a simple explanation from the parent or being informed from the beginning would have been very helpful. Don't take my remarks as being against providing the opportunity to fly, but rather a concern for all involved, the student, instructor, towpilot, the club and the landlord. Old Bob, The Purist

[Eric Greenwell]

A search for "FAA and ASD" found some interesting articles. They indicated ASD is not
inherently disqualifying, that such a person can be a good pilot, but require more
scrutiny than a person without it, and that's without medication involved. For example:

"Aeromedical Issues
The hallmarks of ASD include poor communication skills, as well as a lack of insight and
poor judgment in decision making. Although those with the subtype of Asperger’s syndrome
tend to function at the higher end of the autism spectrum intellectually, the tendency to
be inflexible and to have the inability to make quick-thinking decisions in the face of an
unexpected emergent situation could be disastrous in an aviation environment."

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_types/ame/fasmb/media/autism.pdf

I think you are right for being cautious about the situation. My suggestion: the parents
should contact an AME and talk to the doctor about their child's situation, and not rely
on the "self-certify" ability for gliders.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

[Mark Mocho]

And keep in mind that in today's litigious and "woke" society, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't take on a questionably qualified student. You could be looking at a court case claiming "discrimination" and violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) or be looking at liability if the student harms anyone (including himself) due to his inability to perform adequately in an emergency as stated above.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Eric, your assessment of the situation is one that I and others have had questions regarding the out of the normal thinking and reaction scenario that could arise. I did do a lengthy recount of the FAA situations and rulings on the ASD subject. Although the FAA is very vague or not committed to having defined guidelines for this disorder the FAA did in fact revoke a license of an individual that came under scrutiny because of ASD, and that individual did in fact have a doctorate degree. Both of the MD's that I spoke with based their primary concern on decision making possibly during any abnormal event during flight. The entire situation is very concerning, one one hand I would love to see the kid realize his dream, on the other hand I would hate to see a terrible accident that could and should have been avoided. I admit, the litigious and woke possibilities weigh heavily. Old Bob, The Purist

[George Haeh]

Well, I'd hold him to the same standards as any young student. Does he begin to to proactively pitch in at a rate comparable to his age cohort?

Remember that people of his age still have some growing up to do and a glider club may be the first place where young people have to function as an adult.

I have seen students of all ages and abilities who get stuck at a particular stage of their training and have to work through it.

As for working through unanticipated situations, it's the instructor's job to gradually add different situations as the student develops.

I know one club where students are tricked into having to do a landout (in a conveniently adjacent field) before going solo.

[Hank Nixon]

My club has a junior member that is in this category, having Asperger's. The first impression from one of our instructors was that he" just didn't get it" and had a poor attention span. It seemed that he was not interested or engaged. In talking with him it was clear that he really loved flying and wanted to learn. When his mom told us about his condition things made more sense.
When he did not understand, he would hide it. He didn't want to seem dumb. Likely learned in school. We taught him that if he did not understand he had to say" I don't understand".
When a question was asked, many times the answer was "I don't know". If asked if he just could not figure out the word, commonly the answer was yes. When asked to answer the best he can, most answers show knowledge and understanding. He is learning to communicate.
The other challenge has been to get him to stop waiting for direction and take the action he thinks is correct. He is now doing that and is at the point of being able to fly the whole flight. He has taken about 50% more flights to get to this point than other similar age students.
He will get a lot more practice and training, particularly as we add odd conditions to see how he responds.
His mom has noted that what he is learning at the airport is showing up in the rest of his life.
He busts his butt on the line like no other member.
We have him on full scholarship.
I don't know if he will solo. I hope so. We just have to be patient.
There is not much more important than what we can do for him.
UH

[Wallace Berry]

On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 1:57:41 PM UTC-6, Hank Nixon wrote:

> My club has a junior member that is in this category, having Asperger's. The first impression from one of our instructors was that he" just didn't get it" and had a poor attention span. It seemed that he was not interested or engaged. In talking with him it was clear that he really loved flying and wanted to learn. When his mom told us about his condition things made more sense.
> When he did not understand, he would hide it. He didn't want to seem dumb. Likely learned in school. We taught him that if he did not understand he had to say" I don't understand".
> When a question was asked, many times the answer was "I don't know". If asked if he just could not figure out the word, commonly the answer was yes. When asked to answer the best he can, most answers show knowledge and understanding. He is learning to communicate.
> The other challenge has been to get him to stop waiting for direction and take the action he thinks is correct. He is now doing that and is at the point of being able to fly the whole flight. He has taken about 50% more flights to get to this point than other similar age students.
> He will get a lot more practice and training, particularly as we add odd conditions to see how he responds.
> His mom has noted that what he is learning at the airport is showing up in the rest of his life.
> He busts his butt on the line like no other member.
> We have him on full scholarship.
> I don't know if he will solo. I hope so. We just have to be patient.
> There is not much more important than what we can do for him.
> UH

Good for you guys! Glad you have stuck with this young man. My club has experienced similar situations. With some of these ASD kids, it's so hard to separate their personality and mannerisms from their intellectual ability. It's hard not to write them off as hopeless. As an instructor, I have been lucky to have my wife's 40 years of teaching experience with kids to draw on. She's dealt with kids at every point on the spectrum (including her husband) and she has helped me with dealing with these kids. One thing that I learned from her regarding teaching all kids: They all mature intellectually at different rates and maturation does not occur at an even pace. Just like a kid goes through physical growth spurts, they experience "spurts" in development of the intellect and personality. A year is a huge proportion of a 14 year-old's life and they often experience proportionally huge leaps in maturity in the span of few months. In other words "What a difference a year makes." I have had students who seemed hopelessly immature, inattentive, and inept grow into excellent students in the span of a year or less. Sometimes, all it takes is to not give up on them and let time do it's magic.

[C-FFKQ (42)]

"If you've met one person with autism, you've met ONE person with autism" - Dr. Stephen Shore.

I learned to fly (Glider and Power scholarships through the Royal Canadian Air Cadets) and received my glider instructor rating long before I was diagnosed with ASD.

I've trained a number of student pilots who were diagnosed with ASD, some successfully to license, some not to solo. It all depended on the student's ability. The main concern I've had is with "Executive Functioning" (a common problem for those on the spectrum). Most had the technical skills to control the glider, but judgement was lacking, particularly as the stress and workload went up (and we've all seen that in students without ASD, too).

With one kid that we suspected was on the spectrum but the parents hadn't disclosed, he was doing poorly and we were concerned about him going solo. We asked the parents how he was at driving a car... one parent replied, "Oh no! We don't let him drive the car". My response: "And yet, you expect us to turn him loose in an airplane?". He was welcome to fly with an instructor any time, but solo was not anticipated without major improvement in judgement and situational awareness.

So, set aside any notions of what a person with autism is like (eg, I'm not a "Rain Man"... more of a "Drizzle Guy") and teach the person. Each has strengths and weaknesses, each a separate personality and skill set. It's a "spectrum" and is unique to each person.

- John

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

John. thanks for the reply, your concerns are parallel to my concerns as well. I am no qualified to give a medical opinion, although my observations are reasons for concern. No, the individual is not a "RAIN MAN", but probably more than a DRIZZZLE. My concerns are primarily for the best interest of the individual, secondly, for others that are involved in the process here at the club. I will do most of the tows here at the club, over 1000 this year alone, I have added concerns towing many of our members, I have had very close calls this past year and was towing a first time solo student that panicked and almost created a disaster. I would never want to see that happen to anyone again, the student or the tow pilot. Given the "Executive Functioning" scenario it confirms what the two MD's have conveyed to me, that being their primary concern. A bit more that I have not detailed prior is that this individual has not been successful in public or private school and is now being home schooled, and as the parent stated he is now an A student!
I guess that I can only hope that there is a bright spot in the future for the young individual, I will not discourage his or the parents dream, I will be having a meeting with the parent and the instructors at some point to explain that the student may never solo but can fly with other rated pilots and instructors. Old Bob, The Purist

[waltco...@aol.com]

Bob,

You might be surprised to know how many people with Asperger's you interact with every day. Many might seem reasonably normal with a quirk or two. There are physicians, politicians, airline pilots and many others on the spectrum but on the high end. It is wise to identify those who might not be totally mentally in the game of flying and restrict their solo flying. I was told by a lady child psychiatrist whom I helped get over her fear of flying that I demonstrated traits consistent with highly functioning Aspies. This was before the official diagnosis was recognized but the traits were in the literature. I will acknowledge that I saw may of the things she mentioned in me. However I graduated from college with honors, will put my SATs, ACTs up against anyone, learned to fly, achieved certificates from the FAA for airplanes, seaplanes, gliders and helicopters. One of the traits Aspies demonstrate aside from the difficult social skills is lack of coordination. This can be overcome by learning things like juggling, playing the drums and so forth. The brain can be rewired to perform skills that one might not be born with. Aspies are usually of above average intelligence with amazing memories and keen logical skills. While sometimes they may take things quite literally they are capable of seeing deeper into subjects than the average joe. When you find the student described as "the lights are on but nobody's home" be careful. The fact is that some people will never be safe flying no matter what, I've encountered a few of those, one damn near killed me. Listen to that little voice in the back of your head, it will tell you much. Interesting to note, did you know the number one occupation of serial killers? AIRCRAFT MECHANICS, MACHINISTS AND ASSEMBLERS. Look it up. I encountered one in my life who did 3 things which led me to believe my safety was not his priority. I let him know up front that I was watching him like a hawk. As a former nuclear medicine technologist I noticed in retrospect things about him consistent with patients on whom I had performed brain scans. In my opinion he had a screw loose but then again, don't we all?

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

I guess the, "don't we all", comment really sums it up to some degree, like I have always said, go to the gliderport and see some really strange people. I had a neighbor as a young guy in Miami that was a Capt. for a major carrier and I would often see him walking around the yard with a frying pan and a flashlight. He was looking at the frying pan in detail with the light, I really kind of stayed away from the dude. So I guess the lesson learned is that some high functioning people do strange things. Old Bob, The Purist

[2G]

Normal 14-year old's don't have fully developed brains; a 14 year-old kid with ASD is the same, but also has the compounding disability of ASD. It would be best for the kid to give him every chance of developing his brain to adulthood before requiring him to make adult-level life and death decisions that are an everyday part of functioning as a pilot.

Tom

[Philip Lee]

I'll out myself. I have autism and I haven't crashed a glider yet. I also have a 3 year-old with autism. I got a lot of help to learn how "neurotypicals" think so I can express myself better. It is pretty easy for me to spot others with ASD, and let me tell you, many glider pilots have it as well. It sucks the parents were not upfront, but I am sure they did it because there is an incredibly negative stigma and probably wanted a normal experience for their kid. If you want to do what is best for the individual, teach them as a normal student. People naturally assume that difficulty expressing yourself means you are impaired in some way. You may probably find the instruction is hard for you, because we do not think like you, but the worst thing you can do is assume the person has some intellectual disability...it's like assuming deaf people are dumb.

Autistic people are extremely loyal. We have fierce "special" interests. We often have incredible memories and learn "associatively" (i.e. we learn and remember that certain things occur together). We are often intelligent but rarely in the stereotypical "rain main" or "sheldon cooper" ways. We often think in pictures and find it hard to compose the words to express what we are thinking to others. We are often poor at "social intelligence" and fail to read the emotions of others. We often do not understand the subtle social norms and what is implied or expected that we do or don't do (much of the help I got was like a class in un-stated social rules).

Hope that helps. Feel free to reach out.
-Philip

[George Haeh]

Glider flying attracts so many strange folk (well demonstrated on RAS) that somebody with ASD might well fit in just fine.

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:53:02 AM UTC-5, Philip Lee wrote:
> I'll out myself. I have autism and I haven't crashed a glider yet. I also have a 3 year-old with autism. I got a lot of help to learn how "neurotypicals" think so I can express myself better. It is pretty easy for me to spot others with ASD, and let me tell you, many glider pilots have it as well. It sucks the parents were not upfront, but I am sure they did it because there is an incredibly negative stigma and probably wanted a normal experience for their kid. If you want to do what is best for the individual, teach them as a normal student. People naturally assume that difficulty expressing yourself means you are impaired in some way. You may probably find the instruction is hard for you, because we do not think like you, but the worst thing you can do is assume the person has some intellectual disability...it's like assuming deaf people are dumb.
>
> Autistic people are extremely loyal. We have fierce "special" interests. We often have incredible memories and learn "associatively" (i.e. we learn and remember that certain things occur together). We are often intelligent but rarely in the stereotypical "rain main" or "sheldon cooper" ways. We often think in pictures and find it hard to compose the words to express what we are thinking to others. We are often poor at "social intelligence" and fail to read the emotions of others. We often do not understand the subtle social norms and what is implied or expected that we do or don't do (much of the help I got was like a class in un-stated social rules).
>
> Hope that helps. Feel free to reach out.
> -Philip

Well explained, thanks for sharing and commend you for your candor. This is not an easy subject to discuss or to pass judgement on. I would like to discuss out student with you. Bob

[Dan Marotta]

Wow!  That was so informative.  Thanks for pulling the curtain back a bit.

Dan
5J

[metca...@gmail.com]

Folks, let me (again) point out an earlier thread, just over a year ago, which may be of interest:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.aviation.soaring/c/5NrRN0rsXCc/m/07AdIaueAwAJ

I mentioned that near the beginning of this thread, but with a link which (I now see) may have suggested that my own post there was the important one. That was not my intention, and I don't know how it happened.
The above link should take you to the whole thread.
James.

[2G]

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 6:53:02 AM UTC-8, Philip Lee wrote:
> I'll out myself. I have autism and I haven't crashed a glider yet. I also have a 3 year-old with autism. I got a lot of help to learn how "neurotypicals" think so I can express myself better. It is pretty easy for me to spot others with ASD, and let me tell you, many glider pilots have it as well. It sucks the parents were not upfront, but I am sure they did it because there is an incredibly negative stigma and probably wanted a normal experience for their kid. If you want to do what is best for the individual, teach them as a normal student. People naturally assume that difficulty expressing yourself means you are impaired in some way. You may probably find the instruction is hard for you, because we do not think like you, but the worst thing you can do is assume the person has some intellectual disability...it's like assuming deaf people are dumb.
>
> Autistic people are extremely loyal. We have fierce "special" interests. We often have incredible memories and learn "associatively" (i.e. we learn and remember that certain things occur together). We are often intelligent but rarely in the stereotypical "rain main" or "sheldon cooper" ways. We often think in pictures and find it hard to compose the words to express what we are thinking to others. We are often poor at "social intelligence" and fail to read the emotions of others. We often do not understand the subtle social norms and what is implied or expected that we do or don't do (much of the help I got was like a class in un-stated social rules).
>
> Hope that helps. Feel free to reach out.
> -Philip

This confirms much of what you said:
https://www.teachforamerica.org/stories/6-tips-for-teaching-students-with-autism
I am interested in what your experiences were while learning to fly and what an appropriate age would be for an ASD student (if there is one).

Tom

[Philip Lee]

Sounds good Bob. Find my email on the SSA member locator if you don't see it here.

My general advice is not to be concerned that ASD will impact your safety or any such thing by itself. Just rely on your usual judgement.

As far as teaching, I think your best resource is going to be the kid's parents. There are clearly some learning issues in group settings if they pulled him out of school. Typical ones are distractions. For example, things that are just "background noise" to you in a classroom are all that some ASD kids can focus on. Like, a flickering light or somebody fidgeting with a pencil would steal the focus from the teacher. The parents have figured all this out by now, so I would suggest getting their advice and debriefing with them. Expect them to be guarded, because they have a lifetime of dealing with folks who misunderstand.

Another thing is expect the person to be very literal-minded. Most people read between the lines and know what you "mean" when you say something. I often find vague instructions confusing, like if my instructor said "add a few knots to the approach speed" I'd be wondering exactly what speed he wanted me to fly. You may also need to explicitly point out the times when the rules can be bent, like when it comes to safety. E.g. if you really need to land on a taxiway, then it's an option.

For me personally, I found radio communications to be very anxiety-provoking. I am already bad at normal conversation, so not understanding what people were talking about or expecting me to say was a big deal that my instructor didn't get. Turns out the comms are _very_ formulaic, and once I understood the patterns, it was easy.

Don't think I have any rules of thumb about age. Our brains aren't any more or less-developed than someone without ASD...more like just speaking a different language sometimes.

-Philip

[youngbl...@gmail.com]

Philip, thanks for the information and suggestions that you provided today, it was a pleasure speaking with you today, without first hand knowledge it makes things very difficult. Thanks again, Old Bob, The Purist

[waltco...@aol.com]

Bob,

Think of it this way. Remember back in high school there were students who got everything easily, then some in the middle who got it but took some work AND of course there were those who never got it. Well Autism is quite similar. There are high end types who for all intents and purposes display above average intelligence, some genius level and on the extreme lower end some who are totally impaired. Those who are totally impaired are in there, they just don't know how to get out. Bill Gates and Isaac Newton display autistic traits, of course on the extreme upper end.

Thinking back to high school you might remember a few of the middle of the road students who would go out of their way to give those who were different a hard time, even to the point of physical violence. They reacted negatively to the lack of acceptable social skills and personality of those students on the spectrum. Those who reacted negatively are of course looked at as NORMAL, pardon me while I puke. Also known as Philip pointed out as NEUROTYPICAL, those not on the spectrum can also be of above average intelligence, average and below average intelligence BUT with reasonable social skills.

Philip did a great job of pointing out some of the traits of those on the spectrum. Extreme loyalty (which I have learned is seldom deserved), fierce "special" interests and incredible memories. Never say anything in front of an Aspie that you don't want him to remember. When an Aspie wants to learn something of an academic nature, he or she will outshine the rank and file of the neurotypical group by far.

As long as you are dealing with an upper end type the only major concern I would voice would be coordination skills. Aspies can be physically clumsy at times but coordination skills can be learned. Have him study for and pass the knowledge exam, you might be surprised at his score. I got a 98 on the private and a 100 on the commercial written as it was called in my day. I did so while going to college full time and carrying 19 and 21 hours in the nuclear sciences.

All this being said it will fall on your experience and ability to judge the readiness of a student to solo. I'm sure you have seen those who didn't have it, didn't get it and most likely might never do so. There will be those who wish to continue to try and that's fine if they are willing to pay the tab, just don't let them kill the tow pilot.

Walt Connelly
former Tow Pilot
now Happy Helicopter Pilot