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On February 15, 2024, Google Groups will no longer be a USENET client.

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Quadibloc

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Dec 15, 2023, 12:53:59 AM12/15/23
to
So the spam will be gone, and we'll all have to use Eternal September.
I'm going to need to figure out how to see quoted text when reading an article.

John Savard

Quadibloc

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Dec 15, 2023, 12:59:36 AM12/15/23
to
Finally found where that setting was hidden by the Pan newsreader.

John Savard

Andrew McDowell

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Dec 15, 2023, 2:00:54 AM12/15/23
to
I may make some desultory attempts to use Eternal September again, but I suspect that I will move to reddit, although I am reluctant to get too dependent on it. In some ways Twitter/X should suit me very well, but I have never liked the basic principle of chopping everything up into tweets - perhaps Baen's Bar...

Charles Packer

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Dec 15, 2023, 3:59:34 AM12/15/23
to
Don't go! Usenet is the purest implementation of freedom of speech on
the internet. It needs all hands on deck to maintain it.

Kevrob

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Dec 15, 2023, 4:46:36 AM12/15/23
to
Parallel thread in rec.arts.sf.fandom

"Google Groups shutting off usenet access"

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.fandom/c/R5y0l8PGlhI/m/ngB1FAQoAgAJ

--
Kevin R

Scott Lurndal

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Dec 15, 2023, 10:15:14 AM12/15/23
to
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>So the spam will be gone, and we'll all have to use Eternal September.
>I'm going to need to figure out how to see quoted text when reading an article.

And the usenet archive started by DejaNews will end on 15 Feb 2024. Sigh.

The Doctor

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Dec 15, 2023, 11:13:57 AM12/15/23
to
In article <RzUeN.25330$83n7...@fx18.iad>,
There are available options!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nk.ca Ici doc...@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
Merry Christmas 2023 and Happy New year 2024 Beware https://mindspring.com

The Doctor

unread,
Dec 15, 2023, 11:15:09 AM12/15/23
to
In article <04_eN.1836$Wbff...@fx37.iad>,
WEll Google should have never purchased this item for starters

!!

Lynn McGuire

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Dec 15, 2023, 4:08:10 PM12/15/23
to
Reddit is like high school. Every time I post a book review in
r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI" because I
use words with more than one syllable. The moderators finally gave me a
get out of jail card.

Lynn



Quadibloc

unread,
Dec 15, 2023, 8:09:06 PM12/15/23
to
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:15:08 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> And the usenet archive started by DejaNews will end on 15 Feb 2024.

It will no longer be added to, but the old stuff will still remain
accessible; this was also noted in the notice.

John Savard

Quadibloc

unread,
Dec 15, 2023, 8:10:38 PM12/15/23
to
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:08:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> at least one person will scream "written by an AI" because I
> use words with more than one syllable.

Oh, dear. I fear I would fail that form of the Turing test also.

John Savard

Rockinghorse Winner

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Dec 15, 2023, 10:23:13 PM12/15/23
to
Dejanews: now that's a blast from the past! :)

Default User

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Dec 15, 2023, 11:21:01 PM12/15/23
to
Lynn McGuire wrote:


>Reddit is like high school. Every time I post a book review in
>r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI" because
>I use words with more than one syllable. The moderators finally gave
>me a get out of jail card.

We can vouch for you, because you've been writing like this for way
longer than chatbots have existed.


Brian

pete...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 16, 2023, 1:23:06 AM12/16/23
to
I can remember when Dejanews started. It was a bit of a shock at the time.
Prior to DJN, it was reasonable to assume that Usenet posts were ephemeral.
There was considerable hand wringing over the notion that your posts might
be dragged from the archive to incriminate or discredit you.

Those worries were correct.

Pt

Default User

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Dec 16, 2023, 1:51:28 AM12/16/23
to
The Doctor wrote:

>In article <04_eN.1836$Wbff...@fx37.iad>,
>Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:

>>And the usenet archive started by DejaNews will end on 15 Feb 2024.
>>Sigh.
>
>WEll Google should have never purchased this item for starters

My recollection back then was that Deja was going to pull the plug and
flush the servers. GG basically saved it from oblivion at the time.


Brian


Default User

unread,
Dec 16, 2023, 1:53:30 AM12/16/23
to
Lynn McGuire wrote:


>Reddit is like high school. Every time I post a book review in
>r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI" because
>I use words with more than one syllable. The moderators finally gave
>me a get out of jail card.

I have never liked Reddit much, it's threading model is fairly poor and
it's stuffed with ads. You don't have to worry too much about spam when
it COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!


Brian


Gary R. Schmidt

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Dec 16, 2023, 4:39:09 AM12/16/23
to
On 16/12/2023 17:23, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 10:23:13 PM UTC-5, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
>> On 2023-12-15, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>> So the spam will be gone, and we'll all have to use Eternal September.
>>>> I'm going to need to figure out how to see quoted text when reading an article.
>>>
>>> And the usenet archive started by DejaNews will end on 15 Feb 2024. Sigh.
>> Dejanews: now that's a blast from the past! :)
>
> I can remember when Dejanews started. It was a bit of a shock at the time.
> Prior to DJN, it was reasonable to assume that Usenet posts were ephemeral.
Really??

There were archives of Usenet posts all over the place, some dating from
before the great reorganisation, before DejaNews started up, but they
didn't allow general access, or advertise their existence. But most
news admins new of their nearest, mine was at Telstra. But I've not
been a real news admin sisnce the 1990s.

DejaNews probably killed them, and then Google killed DejaNews. Sigh.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Scott Dorsey

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Dec 16, 2023, 7:06:14 AM12/16/23
to
Except for the stuff that hasn't been accessible for well over a decade.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Marco Cawthorne

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Dec 16, 2023, 7:18:10 AM12/16/23
to
Quadibloc wrote:
> So the spam will be gone

That's the hope, anyway.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 16, 2023, 9:21:30 AM12/16/23
to
In article <uljhdb$2aqs9$1...@dont-email.me>,
Seems like archive.org would be a good home if the corpus still exists
somehere.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Scott Lurndal

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Dec 16, 2023, 10:14:30 AM12/16/23
to
"pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 10:23:13=E2=80=AFPM UTC-5, Rockinghorse Win=
>ner wrote:
>> On 2023-12-15, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:=20
>> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:=20
>> >>So the spam will be gone, and we'll all have to use Eternal September.=
>=20
>> >>I'm going to need to figure out how to see quoted text when reading an =
>article.=20
>> >=20
>> > And the usenet archive started by DejaNews will end on 15 Feb 2024. Sig=
>h.
>> Dejanews: now that's a blast from the past! :)
>
>I can remember when Dejanews started. It was a bit of a shock at the time.
>Prior to DJN, it was reasonable to assume that Usenet posts were ephemeral.

Well, except for Henry Spencer's collection.

Dimensional Traveler

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Dec 16, 2023, 12:15:21 PM12/16/23
to
Well, we all know the importance of knowing what a politician has said
in the past and since humans are political animals there is a bit of
politician in all of us. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Lynn McGuire

unread,
Dec 16, 2023, 4:07:12 PM12/16/23
to
The moderators in r/WormFanFic ? banned me so they bought into it too.

Lynn

Jack Bohn

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Dec 16, 2023, 4:30:19 PM12/16/23
to
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:53:59 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> So the spam will be gone, and we'll all have to use Eternal September.
> I'm going to need to figure out how to see quoted text when reading an article.

Their own decision, or driven by de-peering as mentioned as an option?

Or a strange AI influence on the decision? I heard a commentator mention that in training an large language models on human conversations, if you then let replies from the program into those conversations, you have to be careful that it's not training on an increasing percentage of program output. Google may want its own walled Groups pure, because that would be its own owned data. (As the saying goes, if you aren't paying, you aren't the customer, you are the product) It may have some disposable groups it introduces AI in to converse. I'm trying to thing of some sort of Brin/Uplift convent between AI labs to leave usenet as a fallow world for them all to benefit from.

--
-Jack

Rockinghorse Winner

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Dec 16, 2023, 9:31:08 PM12/16/23
to
It's remarkable that there was a time when usenet was thought so much of,
that people thought it should be archived. Times sure have changed...

Default User

unread,
Dec 17, 2023, 2:13:29 AM12/17/23
to
pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>I can remember when Dejanews started. It was a bit of a shock at the
>time. Prior to DJN, it was reasonable to assume that Usenet posts
>were ephemeral. There was considerable hand wringing over the notion
>that your posts might be dragged from the archive to incriminate or
>discredit you.
>
>Those worries were correct.

That lead almost immediately to the X-No-Archive header, so anyone
really concerned could make sure their posts weren't archived.


Brian

Andrew McDowell

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Dec 17, 2023, 2:40:44 AM12/17/23
to
You need not take the rejection reasons on reddit at face value. I will paste below what /r/coronavirus rejected as a low effort post (FWIW I bought the book mentioned and followed many of the references. Some topics such as long distance airborne spread appear to be at least plausible, others I find unconvincing. I may later attempt to post a book review just for the hell of it, but I am currently distracted, having found a free copy only of Drake's "Lord of the Isle" - good multiviewpoint fantasy, but alas I am not really a fan of multiviewpoint fantasy).
---

The link points to a video by Claire Craig, who has a book out claiming that the powers that be got a lot of things wrong. One of her contentions is that a significant amount of spread was by long persisting aerosols, not person-person transport. UK computer models of the epidemic typically assumed person-person transport across distances of less than 2 metres. Craig claims that the existence of long distance aerosol spread meant that these models predicted a much slower spread than was actually the case, and over-estimated the effect of lockdown, which sharply reduced person-person contact, but not theoretical long distance transport, especially at night, with no UV to destroy the virus. (UK modelling was typically based on SIR - I think US relied less on this and more on statistical time series, which would not have mechanistic assumptions wired in).

I have been trying to web search to find up to date info about aerosol transport - best so far is https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7989069/ but a lot of what I find is early papers written in haste when I presume are superceded.

How plausible is significant long distance transmission? I cannot dismiss it with a back of the envelope guess. If short range spread is plausible for distances under 2 metres in fifteen minutes, and we allow long range spread 24 hours to work, that is 96 times as long. If we assume that virus particles are filling up a pancake of air and spreading out then spread might go up as the square root of that. The square root of 96 is something over 9, so we might fill up a pancake with a radius of 18 metres, which is something under 60 feet.

Gary R. Schmidt

unread,
Dec 17, 2023, 3:49:12 AM12/17/23
to
ITYM "theoretically" weren't archived

The three - not sure now - archives I knew of treated the X-No-archive
header as a "Plebs can't see it after a fortnight" flag.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Robert Carnegie

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Dec 17, 2023, 9:48:53 AM12/17/23
to
I don't see how any of that works. Starting with
GG Usenet running from now until next February
if the rest of Usenet is cutting off Google now.

Incidentally, shouldn't we see more spam from
AI with a sinister purpose? AI influencers?
Is it not worth doing? Or is it too good to
be detected?

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 17, 2023, 11:48:47 AM12/17/23
to

Scott Dorsey

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Dec 17, 2023, 12:46:39 PM12/17/23
to
MOST of which wound up as part of Dejanews. Some tapes got mislaid though.

The Horny Goat

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Dec 17, 2023, 5:16:27 PM12/17/23
to
On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:08:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Reddit is like high school. Every time I post a book review in
>r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI" because I
>use words with more than one syllable. The moderators finally gave me a
>get out of jail card.
>
If a literate person is automatically assumed to be an AI that says
terrible things both for the state of our culture and the state of our
literature both fiction and non-fiction.

I commonly listen to Youtube while doing Usenet but then that's about
70-30 commentary and music (a bit higher on the music at this time of
year). Unsurprisingly I don't have a problem multi-tasking - and
seldom have under 10 books out from the public library.

I don't pretend that makes me anybody special but anybody who stamps
"written by an AI" on this can expect some rage. (Though I try to
moderate it at this time of year!)

The Horny Goat

unread,
Dec 17, 2023, 5:33:41 PM12/17/23
to
On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:14:23 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>>I can remember when Dejanews started. It was a bit of a shock at the time.
>>Prior to DJN, it was reasonable to assume that Usenet posts were ephemeral.
>
>Well, except for Henry Spencer's collection.

This is why I so liked GG way back when since it allowed me to
demonstrate when I switched from FidoNet to Usenet or at least
establish a relatively early date when I first posted to Usenet (the
two overlapped for me for awhile before I left Fido - the earliest
Usenet I found with my name on it - and my old e-mail address from my
dial-up internet days before the cable - was 04/1994)

Default User

unread,
Dec 17, 2023, 10:35:47 PM12/17/23
to
But that's mainly what people were worried about, their posts publicly
available for an indeterminate time. Nothing ever prevented anyone who
touched a post anywhere in its travels from saving it. Including
end-use individuals if they wanted. It's just that most didn't care.


Brian

Default User

unread,
Dec 17, 2023, 10:39:31 PM12/17/23
to
The Horny Goat wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:08:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
><lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Reddit is like high school. Every time I post a book review in
>>r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI"
>>because I use words with more than one syllable. The moderators
>>finally gave me a get out of jail card.
>>
>If a literate person is automatically assumed to be an AI that says
>terrible things both for the state of our culture and the state of our
>literature both fiction and non-fiction.

Now, let's be sensible. I sincerely doubt Lynn's trouble is the result
of using polysyllabic words rather than his idiosyncratic posting
style. We're just used to it.


Brian

Michael F. Stemper

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Dec 18, 2023, 9:25:01 AM12/18/23
to
After all, his posts are well-bound and printed.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.

Lynn McGuire

unread,
Dec 18, 2023, 4:30:03 PM12/18/23
to
On 12/18/2023 8:24 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 21.39, Default User wrote:
>> The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:08:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reddit is like high school.  Every time I post a book review in
>>>> r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI"
>>>> because I use words with more than one syllable.  The moderators
>>>> finally gave me a get out of jail card.
>>>>
>>> If a literate person is automatically assumed to be an AI that says
>>> terrible things both for the state of our culture and the state of our
>>> literature both fiction and non-fiction.
>>
>> Now, let's be sensible. I sincerely doubt Lynn's trouble is the result
>> of using polysyllabic words rather than his idiosyncratic posting
>> style. We're just used to it.
>
> After all, his posts are well-bound and printed.

Well printed and well bound. And one of my Murderbot hardback books was
NOT well bound, the pages are leaving the binding already after two
reads. I wonder if I can get Tor to replace the book ?

Lynn


Torbjorn Lindgren

unread,
Dec 19, 2023, 5:26:06 AM12/19/23
to
Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>On 16/12/2023 17:23, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 10:23:13 PM UTC-5, Rockinghorse
>Winner wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-15, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>>> So the spam will be gone, and we'll all have to use Eternal September.
>>>>> I'm going to need to figure out how to see quoted text when reading
>>>>> an article.
>>>>
>>>> And the usenet archive started by DejaNews will end on 15 Feb 2024. Sigh.
>>> Dejanews: now that's a blast from the past! :)
>>
>> I can remember when Dejanews started. It was a bit of a shock at the time.
>> Prior to DJN, it was reasonable to assume that Usenet posts were ephemeral.
>Really??

Not sure it was always a reasonable expectation BUT it was a commonly
held belief until that time by most users. Probably even "overwhelming
majority of users" or "almost all users".


>There were archives of Usenet posts all over the place, some dating from
>before the great reorganisation, before DejaNews started up, but they
>didn't allow general access, or advertise their existence. But most
>news admins new of their nearest, mine was at Telstra. But I've not
>been a real news admin sisnce the 1990s.

Whether it was right or not doesn't necessarily matter for whether it
was a commonly held belief among USERS.

Even among Usenet admins few expected there to be full PUBLIC archive
- with hindsight this may seem obvious but that's hindsight for you.

It was a very different computer landscape back then.

Paul S Person

unread,
Dec 19, 2023, 11:52:29 AM12/19/23
to
On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:29:58 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/18/2023 8:24 AM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 21.39, Default User wrote:
>>> The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 15:08:04 -0600, Lynn McGuire
>>>> <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Reddit is like high school.  Every time I post a book review in
>>>>> r/printSF, at least one person will scream "written by an AI"
>>>>> because I use words with more than one syllable.  The moderators
>>>>> finally gave me a get out of jail card.
>>>>>
>>>> If a literate person is automatically assumed to be an AI that says
>>>> terrible things both for the state of our culture and the state of our
>>>> literature both fiction and non-fiction.
>>>
>>> Now, let's be sensible. I sincerely doubt Lynn's trouble is the result
>>> of using polysyllabic words rather than his idiosyncratic posting
>>> style. We're just used to it.
>>
>> After all, his posts are well-bound and printed.
>
>Well printed and well bound. And one of my Murderbot hardback books was
>NOT well bound, the pages are leaving the binding already after two
>reads. I wonder if I can get Tor to replace the book ?

If you bought the thing, then the pages have done all they were ever
intended to do. That they wish to escape may say more about how they
were treated by the reader than how well they were bound.

I have faced this problem many times, and not just with paperbacks.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

pete...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 19, 2023, 4:03:44 PM12/19/23
to
As I recall - sure, we knew that some people maintained private archives, and
it was widely rumored that the CIA got a tape from one of the major nodes daily,
but there weren't any publicly available archives in which one could go and dig up
sophomore indiscretions by arbitrary people.

Dejanews changed that.

pt

Lynn McGuire

unread,
Dec 19, 2023, 5:07:09 PM12/19/23
to
On 12/19/2023 10:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
...
>>>> Now, let's be sensible. I sincerely doubt Lynn's trouble is the result
>>>> of using polysyllabic words rather than his idiosyncratic posting
>>>> style. We're just used to it.
>>>
>>> After all, his posts are well-bound and printed.
>>
>> Well printed and well bound. And one of my Murderbot hardback books was
>> NOT well bound, the pages are leaving the binding already after two
>> reads. I wonder if I can get Tor to replace the book ?
>
> If you bought the thing, then the pages have done all they were ever
> intended to do. That they wish to escape may say more about how they
> were treated by the reader than how well they were bound.
>
> I have faced this problem many times, and not just with paperbacks.

I treat all of my books with loving care !

Except for the ones I throw against the wall. For instance, I am
reading the MMPB "Ilium" by Dan Simmons right now. I have thrown it
against the wall twice so far and it has survived with zero damage to
date. The book does not make sense.

And I paid for my Murderbot books. I do not get any books for free,
even from my cousin (Seanan Lynn McGuire).

Lynn

Dimensional Traveler

unread,
Dec 19, 2023, 10:26:34 PM12/19/23
to
On 12/19/2023 2:07 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 12/19/2023 10:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> ...
>>>>> Now, let's be sensible. I sincerely doubt Lynn's trouble is the result
>>>>> of using polysyllabic words rather than his idiosyncratic posting
>>>>> style. We're just used to it.
>>>>
>>>> After all, his posts are well-bound and printed.
>>>
>>> Well printed and well bound.  And one of my Murderbot hardback books was
>>> NOT well bound, the pages are leaving the binding already after two
>>> reads.  I wonder if I can get Tor to replace the book ?
>>
>> If you bought the thing, then the pages have done all they were ever
>> intended to do. That they wish to escape may say more about how they
>> were treated by the reader than how well they were bound.
>>
>> I have faced this problem many times, and not just with paperbacks.
>
> I treat all of my books with loving care !
>
> Except for the ones I throw against the wall.  For instance, I am
> reading the MMPB "Ilium" by Dan Simmons right now.  I have thrown it
> against the wall twice so far and it has survived with zero damage to
> date.  The book does not make sense.
>
Maybe if you whacked it against your head instead of the wall....

Lynn McGuire

unread,
Dec 19, 2023, 10:46:53 PM12/19/23
to
No thank you, I already have enough brain damage from my second heart
attack a decade ago. Turns out having only 80% O2 in your blood for 24
hours is not good for your brain, who knew ?

Lynn

Dimensional Traveler

unread,
Dec 20, 2023, 12:05:40 AM12/20/23
to
Anyone who hasn't had only 80% O2 in their blood for 24 hours?

Gary R. Schmidt

unread,
Dec 20, 2023, 9:04:11 AM12/20/23
to
Maybe that was true in the land of the fee, the telstra archive was
free-for-all here in Oz.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

The Horny Goat

unread,
Dec 20, 2023, 10:19:41 PM12/20/23
to
Whereas most of the users in the now largely defunct
soc.history.what-if and alt.history.what-if WANTED the old stuff kept
as they were very big on cooperative counter-factual history scenarios
some of which went over 50 postings and they wanted people to be able
to read them from start to finish!

Lotto595 “คาสิโนครบวงจร”

unread,
Dec 20, 2023, 11:44:41 PM12/20/23
to

> ✨สมัครคลิกลิ้งค์ :
https://he1.me/G9NeH
> ✨ช่องทางเข้าเล่น:
https://he1.me/G9NeH
> ✅แทงหวยออนไลน์ อัตราจ่ายสูง จ่ายเต็ม ไม่มีเลขอั้น ✅
> 💢หวยไทย 💢หวยรัฐบาล
> 🍊 3 ตัวตรง บาทละ 900 🍊
> 🍊 3 ตัวโต๊ด บาทละ 140 🍊
> 🍊 2 ตัวบนล่าง บาทละ 95 🍊
> ✨สมัครคลิกลิ้งค์ :
https://he1.me/G9NeH
> ✨ช่องทางเข้าเล่น:
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> เว็บหวยอันดับ 1ชองไทยฝากถอนโอนไว ฝา่กไมมีขั้นต่ำ บาทละ900 เว็บหวย356 เป็นเว็บไซต์ลอตเตอรี่ที่ร้อนแรงที่สุดในปี 2565 ให้บริการเดิมพันลอตเตอรี่ออนไลน์ทุกรูปแบบทุกประเภท สามารถแทงหวยออนไลน์ได้ทั้งบนคอมพิวเตอร์ แท็บแล็ต โน๊ตบุ๊ค และสมาร์ทโฟนทุกระบบปฏิบัติการ ทั้ง Android หรือ IOS รวมถึงทุกอุปกรณ์ที่สามารถเชื่อมต่ออินเทอร์เน็ตได้ เว็บไซต์ได้รับการพัฒนาด้วยเทคโนโลยีที่ทันสมัยอยู่ตลอดเวลา รวดเร็ว และใช้งานง่าย ไม่ยุ่งยาก มีระบบฝาก-ถอนอัตโนมัติที่เร็วที่สุดในประเทศไทย ไม่เกิน 3 วินาที และบริการฝาก-ถอนตลอด 24 ชม. มีการเงินที่มั่นคง เชื่อถือได้ ปลอดภัย จ่ายมาก จ่ายหนัก จ่ายจริง ไม่โกง ไม่อั้น จ่ายเต็ม 356 เว็บหวยระบบดิจิตอล หวยออนไลน์ ฝาก-ถอน อัตโนมัติ ผ่านธนาคารบนมือถือ โอนเข้าบัญชีเว็บโดยตรงผ่านระบบอิเล็กทรอนิกส์ของโต๊ะประชุมออนไลน์ และลอตเตอรี่ออนไลน์แบบ 1 ต่อ 1 โดยตรงเพื่อเพิ่มความปลอดภัยสูงสุด มีความน่าเชื่อถือ ธุรกรรมทางการเงินที่ไม่ผ่านคนกลาง มั่นคง เป็นเว็บแม่ เว็บตรง ไม่ผ่านเอเย่นต์ เครดิตฟรี โบนัสฟรี เติมเครดิต โชคดี แตกแสน แตกล้าน สล็อตแตก เติมเงินไว ฝากออโต้ ฝากไว ไม่โกง เล่นง่าย ไม่มีอั้น เลขไม่อั้น เว็ปไม่มีประวัติ เว็ปจ่ายเร็ว เว็ปจ่ายจริง
> ซื้อหวยออนไลน์ ที่ไหนดี , เว็บหวย ดีที่สุด ,เว็บหวยออนไลน์ , เป็นหนึ่งใน เว็บหวย ที่ให้บริการผ่านทางออนไลน์ ซื้อหวยได้ที่ไหน , สมัครซื้อหวย , รูปเเบบหวยออนไลน์ , หวยมาเลย์ , สมัครซื้อหวยง่ายๆ ,หวยเล่นง่าย , ตรงจหวย ,เล่นหวยสด , :สนใจคลิ๊กลิ้งนี้เลย , ซื้อหวย , เว็บหวยจ่ายไม่อั่น ,เล่นหวยสด ,หวยออนไลน์ 24 ชั่วโมง , เว็บหวย , ซื้อหวย , และเเนวทางหวย , หวยสด , huaysod , chudjen , chudjenbet , ชัดเจน , ชัดเจนเบท , แนวทางหวยหุ้น , ฮานอย , ลาว , มาเลย์ , เบลเยี่ยม ,ซื้อหวย ส่งหวย - บาท ค่าเเนะนำเพื่อน , สำหรับท่านที่สนใจ , สร้างรายได้ไปกับเว็บไซต์ , เรามีระบบแนะนำเพื่อน เพื่อให้ท่านได้สร้างรายได้ ,มั่งมี ได้ง่าย ๆ เพียงแค่ท่านใช้ ,โซเชี่ยลมีเดียต่าง ๆ เช่น, เฟซบุ๊ค, ไลน์, ทวิตเตอร์, ก็สามารถสร้างรายได้ , ให้กับตัวเองได้ตลอดเวลา , ลุ้นหวยงวดนนี้ ,ช่องทางซื้อหวย , อัตราเดิมพันหวย , ซื้อหวยได้ทุกที่ ,ซื้อหวยชุด , อัตราการจ่ายหวยหุ้น, หวยหุ้นไทย , ทางเข้าเล่นหวย , วิธีเล่นหวย , หวยออกกี่โมง , หวยต่างประเทศ , เเทงไม่มีขั้นต่ำ , จ่ายเต็ม , จ่ายจริง , รอบหวย , ซื้อหวยปลอดภัย , สูตรหวย , เเทง1 บาท ,ถูกหวยได้เงินจริง , หวยจ่ายเเพง , หวยฮานอยวันนี้ , วันนี้หวยออก , จัดอันดับหวย , เเทงหวยสด , หวยรายวัน , ผลสลาก , เว็บหวยอันดับ 1 , เว็บไหนจ่ายเเพง , เเทงหวยไม่โกง , ขายหวย , หวย 2 ตัวบน , หวยสามตัวบน , หวย 4 ตัว , หวย 2 ตัวล่าง , สลากกินเเบ่งรัฐบาล , หวยล็อตเตอร์รี่ , เลือกซื้อหวย ,ซื้อง่ายเล่นง่าย , หวยถูกกฎหมาย , เสี่ยงโชคหวย , เเทงหวย24 , หวยรวย , ซื้อหวยวันนี้ , เล่นหวย24 , สมัครเว็บหวย 24 , ออกผลหวย 24 , สมัครหวยมาเลย์ , หวยหุ้น24 , ยี่กี่สูง - ต่ำ , เว็บหวยไทย , สมัครเเทงหวยไทย , ซื้อหวยรวย ,:สมัครแทงหวยหุ้น ,แทงหวย บนมือถือ ,เลขเด็ด หวยวันนี้ ,แทงหวยออนไลน์ ยังไง ,เว็บหวย จ่ายจริง ,เว็บหวย จ่ายเยอะ , เเทงหวย 24 ชม. , หวยรัฐบาลไทย , หวยใหญ่จ่ายจริง , การันตีกว่า 2 ล้านยูสเซอร์ที่ แทง หวยออนไลน์ กับมั่งมีทุกวันที่ 1 และ 16 ของเดือน 3 ตัว 900 บาท และ 2 ตัว 94 บาท , เว็บหวยจ่ายเเพงที่สุด ,มั่งมี, เเทงหวยต้องที่นี้ , สมัครแทงหวยออนไลน์ ง่ายๆเพียง 3 ขั้นตอน สะดวก รวดเร็ว ปลอดภัย กรอกเบอร์โทรศัพท์, ตั้งรหัสผ่าน และ กรอกเลขบัญชีเพื่อฝาก-ถอน , เว็บหวยอันดับ 1 ของไทย , เว็บหวยออนไลน์ถูกกฎหมาย , หวยหุ้นจ่ายเยอะ , ทางเข้าหวย , สมัครซื้อหวยออนไลน์ , ไม่มีเลขอั้น , เว็บหวยฝาก - ถอนไว , cat88 , แคท88 , heng168 , เฮง168 , thailotto , ไทยลอตโต้ , เว็บหวยเเจกหนัก ,เว็บรวย หวยออนไลน์ ,เกมเดิมพัน มั่งมี ,เกมหัวก้อย เกมไพ่ตีไก่ ,เว็บหวย โปรจัดหนัก ,แนวทางหวยลาว หวยมาเลย์ หวยฮานอย , หวยนาคา , เว็บหวยชื่อดัง , เว็บหวยที่กำลังได้รับความนิยม , หวยเยอะ , เช่น หวยรัฐบาล , หวยลาว , หวยฮานอย , ยี่กี , มาเลย์ , เว็บหวยมาเเรง 2023 , สมัครสมาชิกหวยหุ้น ,หวย LOTTOVIP ล็อตโต้วีไอพี ,ลอตเตอรี่พลัส ,ลอตเตอรี่ออนไลน์ , เว็บหวยรวย , หวยโฮจิมินห์ , หวยลาวภาคี , หวยลาวมิตรภาพ , หวยลาวสำพันธ์ , หวยยี่กีได้ง่าย , หวยยี่กีกี่บาท , กลุ่มหวยยี่กี , หวยยี่กีบาทละ1000 , เว็บหวยยี่กี , ซื้อหวยยี่กี , หวยยี่กีไม่โกง , หวยยี่กียิงเลข , หวยยี่รอบเร็ว , , เว็บหวยเว็บไหนจ่ายจริงบ้างครับ , แฉเว็บหวยโกง , lottoup , เว็บหวย lottoup , ออกหวย , หวยดีไหม , บาทละ900 , บาทละ1000 , เลข 2 ตัว , เว็บซื้อหวย หวยรัฐบาล , แทงหวย ซื้อหวยออนไลน์ , หวยไทย , หวยสด ,ซื้อหวย ขั้นต่ำ 1บาท , หวยออนไลน์ จ่ายเท่าไร , หวยมาเเรง , เว็บซื้อหวย , หวยจ่ายเต็ม , หวยเปิดใหม่ , mughuay , มักหวย , 77lotto , 77ลอตโต้ , 77ล็อตโต้ , ลอตโต้32 , lotto32 , huaulike , หวยไลค์ , หวยดี , huaydee , แทงหวย ใต้ดิน , หวยลาว ซื้อหวยลาว , ซื้อหวย 3 ตัวบน , สมัครหวย สมัครแทงหวยออนไลน์ , ซื้อหวยหุ้น ,ซื้อหวยรัฐบาล,ซื้อหวยกับเราไม่ยากเลย, lottoweekly , lucky , lucky77 , luckyvip77 , ซื้อหวยผ่านเเอพ ,มีหวยมากมาย, หวยยี่กี 5 นาที,หวยยี่กี 10 นาที, ซื้อหวยได้ที่ไหน , สมัครซื้อหวย , รูปเเบบหวยออนไลน์ , หวยมาเลย์ , สมัครซื้อหวยง่ายๆ ,หวยเล่นง่าย , ตรงจหวย ,เล่นหวยสด , :สนใจคลิ๊กลิ้งนี้เลย , ซื้อหวย , เว็บหวยจ่ายไม่อั่น ,เล่นหวยสด ,หวยออนไลน์ 24 ชั่วโมง , เว็บหวย , ซื้อหวย , และเเนวทางหวย , หวยสด , huaysod , chudjen , chudjenbet , ชัดเจน , ชัดเจนเบท , แนวทางหวยหุ้น , ฮานอย , ลาว , มาเลย์ , เบลเยี่ยม ,ซื้อหวย ส่งหวย - บาท ค่าเเนะนำเพื่อน ,มั่งมี สำหรับท่านที่สนใจ , สร้างรายได้ไปกับเว็บไซต์ , เรามีระบบแนะนำเพื่อน เพื่อให้ท่านได้สร้างรายได้ , ได้ง่าย ๆ เพียงแค่ท่านใช้ ,โซเชี่ยลมีเดียต่าง ๆ เช่น, เฟซบุ๊ค, ไลน์, ทวิตเตอร์, ก็สามารถสร้างรายได้ , ให้กับตัวเองได้ตลอดเวลา 356 หวยเลขเด็ดเลขนำโชค ฟีด เลขมงคล

Lotto595 “คาสิโนครบวงจร”

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Dec 20, 2023, 11:44:59 PM12/20/23
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Lotto595 “คาสิโนครบวงจร”

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Dec 20, 2023, 11:45:23 PM12/20/23
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