[tor dot com]

[James Nicoll]

Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates

Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
people IN SPACE!

https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Jack Bohn]

James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
>
> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
> people IN SPACE!
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom

>>"or even unjustly convicted of treason for unwittingly providing medical assistance to an enemy of King James II."

Captain Blood!

I saw that movie, read the Sabatini novel, answered a trivia question on it once while out with my brother's family,
then got a chuckle from the table with the aside that before he became Captain Blood, he was...



Doctor Blood!


If you realize you can have two melodramatic names, go for them both!

--
-Jack

[Lynn McGuire]

On 12/9/2022 9:13 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
>
> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
> people IN SPACE!
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom

I have read "Space Viking", "Merchanter's Luck", and "Marque and Reprisal".

I would add "Citizen Of The Galaxy" by Robert Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Citizen-Galaxy-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1416505520

and "In Fury Born" by David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Fury-Born-David-Weber/dp/1416520546/

Lynn

[Tony Nance]

On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:13:06 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
>
> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
> people IN SPACE!
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom
>

It's been a long while, but I'm pretty sure space pirates are one
of Boskone's prominent tools in the Lensman series.

Space pirates/piracy feature off-and-on in Drake's RCN series
and in Reynolds' Revelation Space series. And in Glynn Stewart's
Starship's Mage series, too

I think some of Miles Vorkosigan's Denadarii Mercenary Fleet
adventures involve space pirates/piracy.

And...Jack Vance, I think? Demon Princes? Oh, Vandals of the Void (too).

Oh...and at least one of Martha Wells' Murderbot stories.

And a small group of brain cells (known troublemakers) are
trying to suggest that maybe there are some space pirates in
some of Anderson's van Rijn stories, and maybe some Liaden
stories, too.

Tony

[Titus G]

On 10/12/22 14:01, Tony Nance wrote:
> On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:13:06 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
>>
>> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
>> people IN SPACE!
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom
>>
>
> It's been a long while, but I'm pretty sure space pirates are one
> of Boskone's prominent tools in the Lensman series.
>
> Space pirates/piracy feature off-and-on in Drake's RCN series
> and in Reynolds' Revelation Space series. And in Glynn Stewart's
> Starship's Mage series, too

Space pirates are joint protagonists in Donaldson's
"The Gap" story spread over five or so books.
Real socially primitive pirates, not movie star swashbucklers.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <7367d624-fd1d-4a52...@googlegroups.com>,

Murray Leinster's _The Pirates of Zan_ (obviously), Heinlein's
_Farmer In The Sky_ (off screen), Locke's "Telepathic Space Pirates" setting,
Sutherland's "Alexis Carew" setting, Campbell's "Piracy Preferred",
Nelson Bond's "Lancelot Biggs" setting, Henwick's "The Dark Takes Fools"
setting, & Hawke's "Wings Of The Seraph" settting.

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 09/12/2022 19.01, Tony Nance wrote:
> On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:13:06 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
>>
>> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
>> people IN SPACE!
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom
>>
>
> It's been a long while, but I'm pretty sure space pirates are one
> of Boskone's prominent tools in the Lensman series.

At least in _Galactic Patrol_. After Boskonia is (more or less)
kicked out of the First Galaxy, they rely more on drugs (primarily
thionite) and subversion.

> And a small group of brain cells (known troublemakers) are
> trying to suggest that maybe there are some space pirates in
> some of Anderson's van Rijn stories, and maybe some Liaden
> stories, too.

Point for the troublemakers! In "Hiding Place", van Rijn is being
pursued by Adderkops, who are some pirates, once of Freya.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55496>

--
Michael F. Stemper
If it isn't running programs and it isn't fusing atoms, it's just bending space.

[Tony Nance]

On Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 10:30:02 AM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 09/12/2022 19.01, Tony Nance wrote:
> > On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:13:06 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
> >>
> >> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
> >> people IN SPACE!
> >>
> >> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom
> >>
> >
> > It's been a long while, but I'm pretty sure space pirates are one
> > of Boskone's prominent tools in the Lensman series.
>
> At least in _Galactic Patrol_. After Boskonia is (more or less)
> kicked out of the First Galaxy, they rely more on drugs (primarily
> thionite) and subversion.
>

Cool - thanks. I sometimes think I should re-read those, and
then I worry that they wouldn't hold up very well.

> > And a small group of brain cells (known troublemakers) are
> > trying to suggest that maybe there are some space pirates in
> > some of Anderson's van Rijn stories, and maybe some Liaden
> > stories, too.
>
> Point for the troublemakers!

Woohoo!! Now I wonder what devious plan they're cooking up.

> In "Hiding Place", van Rijn is being
> pursued by Adderkops, who are some pirates, once of Freya.
>
> <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55496>
>

Awesome - thanks.
- Tony

[James Nicoll]

Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation

How might Earth deal with Five! Billion! (or More!) Humans?
These five novels take a look.

https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/

[Lynn McGuire]

On 12/12/2022 2:21 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation
>
> How might Earth deal with Five! Billion! (or More!) Humans?
> These five novels take a look.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/

Are you dropping subject from the title of the posting for a reason ?

Thanks,
Lynn

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 12/12/2022 14.21, James Nicoll wrote:
> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation
>
> How might Earth deal with Five! Billion! (or More!) Humans?
> These five novels take a look.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/

For the first time, I have read all of the novels mentioned in one of
your essays.

With respect to _The Caves of Steel_, you brought to mind something that
I'd never considered before:

With those huge tracts of land for farming, why did the citizens of
steel have to live on yeast? Was Earth exporting the crops to the
Spacer worlds, as in footnote 3?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.

[Robert Carnegie]

Just to toss in, Google Groups has been confused in
the past by squared brackets in a subject line.

[Michael Ikeda]

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:tn85l0$2a7cs$1...@dont-email.me:

> On 12/12/2022 14.21, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation
>>
>> How might Earth deal with Five! Billion! (or More!) Humans?
>> These five novels take a look.
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-over
>> population/
>
> For the first time, I have read all of the novels mentioned in
> one of your essays.
>
> With respect to _The Caves of Steel_, you brought to mind
> something that I'd never considered before:
>
> With those huge tracts of land for farming, why did the citizens
> of steel have to live on yeast? Was Earth exporting the crops to
> the Spacer worlds, as in footnote 3?
>

I suppose one could hypothesize an ecological crisis resulting in
the catastrophic collapse of productivity of ordinary foodcrops.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <XnsAF6BB81BDEDAm...@85.12.62.219>,

I forget -- I know large parts of Earth were a radioactive hellscape
in the Trantor-verse -- was that a part of the Robot-verse as well, or
that that only pre-happen after the merger?

[David Johnston]

No irradiation was mentioned in the Caves of Steel. Outdoors appeared
to fine for anyone who immune to the endemic agoraphobia.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 9, 2022 at 10:13:06 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:

> Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
>
> Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
> people IN SPACE!
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom

I think I'd have included Silverberg's "The World Inside", with 75 billion, or Blish's "A Torrent of Faces",
were we number several Trillion.

Pt

[David Johnston]

But at least their drastically overpopulated worlds weren't ludicrously
underpopulated.

[Michael Ikeda]

David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:tn8i4l$131g$1...@gioia.aioe.org:

I suppose the agoraphobia itself might be an explanation, if there
aren't enough people to raise crops outside.

(Although aren't there a lot of crops that could be raised even now
in an almost entirely automated manner if it was absolutely
necessary?)

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 12/12/2022 17.13, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <XnsAF6BB81BDEDAm...@85.12.62.219>,
> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>> "Michael F. Stemper" <michael...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:tn85l0$2a7cs$1...@dont-email.me:

>>> With respect to _The Caves of Steel_, you brought to mind
>>> something that I'd never considered before:
>>>
>>> With those huge tracts of land for farming, why did the citizens
>>> of steel have to live on yeast? Was Earth exporting the crops to
>>> the Spacer worlds, as in footnote 3?
>>>
>>
>> I suppose one could hypothesize an ecological crisis resulting in
>> the catastrophic collapse of productivity of ordinary foodcrops.
>
> I forget -- I know large parts of Earth were a radioactive hellscape
> in the Trantor-verse -- was that a part of the Robot-verse as well, or
> that that only pre-happen after the merger?

It's complicated.

As originally written, _Pebble in the Sky_ had a radioactive Earth as the
aftermath of nuclear war(s). Not explicitly stated, but quite obviously
implied by its publication in 1950. So in this continuity, the radioactivity
happened well before _The Caves of Steel_. Of course, these were separate
continuities, so it's not really meaningful to compare them.

After the retcon in _Robots and Empire_, the radioactivity was due to the
actions of Daneel Olivaw and Giskard. In *this* continuity then, the
radioactivity came about a couple of centuries after _The Caves of Steel_.

--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.

[pete...@gmail.com]

IIRC, one plot point involves a human secretly walking outdoors
a mile or two. This was considered a near impossibility, which allowed
it to be used to construct an alibi.

The land walked across was farmed, I think by machines.

pt

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 13/12/2022 08.12, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 12/12/2022 17.13, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

>> I forget -- I know large parts of Earth were a radioactive hellscape
>> in the Trantor-verse -- was that a part of the Robot-verse as well, or
>> that that only pre-happen after the merger?
>
> It's complicated.
>
> As originally written, _Pebble in the Sky_ had a radioactive Earth as the
> aftermath of nuclear war(s). Not explicitly stated, but quite obviously
> implied by its publication in 1950. So in this continuity, the radioactivity
> happened well before _The Caves of Steel_. Of course, these were separate
> continuities, so it's not really meaningful to compare them.

The same was true of _The Stars Like Dust_, and I think that the cause was
explicitly stated to be ancient wars in that.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This sentence no verb.

[James Nicoll]

In article <4176974e-ed0e-4472...@googlegroups.com>,

It was much funnier to look for examples of OVER! POPULATED! EARTH!
where the total population was equal to or less than we currently
have.

[Scott Lurndal]

Was there enough fresh clean water to raise crops? What was the quality
of the available land area? Were all the nutrients in the soil
depleted (without natural gas to produce fertilizer, much of our
currently productive land would not be anywhere near as productive).
Was the weather conducive to raising crops? Note that even today,
only 10% of the earth's surface is "arable".

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2022-12-12, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation
>
> How might Earth deal with Five! Billion! (or More!) Humans?
> These five novels take a look.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/

I've read the Asimov, the Harrison, and--I think--the Heinlein.

| The Caves of Steel by Isaac Asimov (1954)
| It’s also because Asimov genuinely liked densely populated cities.
| What some readers might have assumed was intended as dystopic
| seems to have been paradise to the good doctor.

I don't remember it as dystopic either, probably for the same reason
as Asimov. A few years ago I spent a week in the Yonghe District
of Taipei, "one of the most densely populated urban areas in the
world" as Wikipedia puts it. That was ... a new experience. It
didn't freak me out, though. It felt like stepping into the world
of _Ghost in the Shell_, which I understand was modeled on Hong
Kong.

| Make Room! Make Room! by Harry Harrison (1966)
| Harrison doesn’t seem to like most of the characters in this book,
| or the species to which they belong. The good New Yorkers are
| ineffectual and the rest are ignorant, greedy, and destructive.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Harrison had lived in NYC
for some time and HATED it.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Chris Buckley]

Yes, but be careful not to make the same mistake that most of the old
novels that James noted made and underestimate the effect of technology on
these limitations. We are immensely more productive now than in the
1960's and can be much more efficient in the future if we need to be.

My paper just had a nice feature presentation on farming in the Netherlands.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/netherlands-agriculture-technology/
I hadn't realized it, but they are now 2nd in the world in agricultural
exports - 4th in vegetable exports and 4th in meat(!) exports (and of course
1st by a large margin in flower exports). A very high tech national effort
due to WWII famine conditions there. As described in the article, some
crops are almost completed automated now on some "farms".

Chris

[Default User]

Michael Ikeda wrote:

>I suppose the agoraphobia itself might be an explanation, if there
>aren't enough people to raise crops outside.
>
>(Although aren't there a lot of crops that could be raised even now
>in an almost entirely automated manner if it was absolutely
>necessary?)

It wouldn't likely be a problem, because "automated" included
positronic robots that could do basically anything human farmers could.


Brian

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <jvsri5...@mid.individual.net>,

Too bad they are phasing it out.

[pete...@gmail.com]

Part of the CoS worldbuilding was that Earthlings hated and feared robots,
at least humanoid ones. Daneel had to pass as a human.

pt

[Chris Buckley]

On 2022-12-14, Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
> In article <jvsri5...@mid.individual.net>,
> Chris Buckley <al...@sabir.com> wrote:
>>On 2022-12-13, Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> writes:

...

>>>>I suppose the agoraphobia itself might be an explanation, if there
>>>>aren't enough people to raise crops outside.
>>>>
>>>>(Although aren't there a lot of crops that could be raised even now
>>>>in an almost entirely automated manner if it was absolutely
>>>>necessary?)
>>>
>>> Was there enough fresh clean water to raise crops? What was the quality
>>> of the available land area? Were all the nutrients in the soil
>>> depleted (without natural gas to produce fertilizer, much of our
>>> currently productive land would not be anywhere near as productive).
>>> Was the weather conducive to raising crops? Note that even today,
>>> only 10% of the earth's surface is "arable".
>>
>>Yes, but be careful not to make the same mistake that most of the old
>>novels that James noted made and underestimate the effect of technology on
>>these limitations. We are immensely more productive now than in the
>>1960's and can be much more efficient in the future if we need to be.
>>
>>My paper just had a nice feature presentation on farming in the Netherlands.
>>https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/netherlands-agriculture-technology/
>>I hadn't realized it, but they are now 2nd in the world in agricultural
>>exports - 4th in vegetable exports and 4th in meat(!) exports (and of course
>>1st by a large margin in flower exports). A very high tech national effort
>>due to WWII famine conditions there. As described in the article, some
>>crops are almost completed automated now on some "farms".
>>
>>Chris
>
> Too bad they are phasing it out.

While the presentation mentioned that in passing, it neglected to
mention that it was presenting only the cutting edge side of Dutch
sustainable agriculture and not some of the less savory, more
problematic older practices. My view is that this is a propaganda
piece meant to counter the current government efforts. None-the-less,
it presents an impressive picture of what can be done with technology
in agriculture.

Chris

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2022-12-12, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation

> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/

BTW, I'm reminded of the densely populated Earth in Larry Niven's
Known Space, where pickpocketing is legal because a ban would be
unenforceable. (Mentioned at least in "Flatlander", I think.)

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 12/12/2022 15.15, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 12/12/2022 14.21, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation
>>
>> How might Earth deal with Five! Billion! (or More!) Humans?
>> These five novels take a look.
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/

> With respect to _The Caves of Steel_, you brought to mind something that
> I'd never considered before:
>
> With those huge tracts of land for farming, why did the citizens of
> steel have to live on yeast? Was Earth exporting the crops to the
> Spacer worlds, as in footnote 3?

Apparently, they were exporting food to the dirty Spacers:

[...] The land between the cities still held the mines, and
was still used to a larger extent than most men realized for
growing food and grazing stock. It was inefficient, but beef,
pork, and grain always found a luxury market and could be
used for export purposes.

_The Caves of Steel_, Chapter 2

--
Michael F. Stemper
87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <slrntpk7du...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,

Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-12-12, James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> Classic SF Novels About Overpopulation
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/12/five-classic-sf-novels-about-overpopulation/
>
>BTW, I'm reminded of the densely populated Earth in Larry Niven's
>Known Space, where pickpocketing is legal because a ban would be
>unenforceable. (Mentioned at least in "Flatlander", I think.)
>

Not to mention Birthright Lotteries selecting for Teela Brown..

[Lynn McGuire]

It is putting all of the postings under the same thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/91oz7wb3gE4

Lynn

[Titus G]

I was amazed with the structures both physical and procedural but the
most amazing bit was that everything except meat to feed 100,000 people
was being done under glass in an area the size of two football fields.
I sped read it being interested in the novel processes and missed the
part about being phased out which I don't really know what means. Given
their dominance in exports, why would the government want to do that?
Ignoring the spent Capital costs, is it because it costs more to run
than the value from Exports? Can that be answered briefly.

[Chris Buckley]

Nitrogen emissions, especially of meat production.

I see even New Zealand is having its issues here. Agriculture accounts
for half of its greenhouse gas emissions and farmers have to cut 10% in
the next 3 years (and more later).

Chris

[Scott Lurndal]

The problem with most of those cutting edge sustainable agriculture
technologies is that they're dependent upon cheap energy to produce
fertilizers and farm equipement. Something that will become far more
expensive in the fairly near future as fossil fuels become scarce. And
without the cheap fertilizers (derived from methane), a lot of marginal
land currently in production will no longer be economical or won't
sustain current yields.

"With their limited land and a rainy climate, the Dutch have become
masters of efficiency. But there are challenges: The greenhouse
industry has flourished in part because of cheap energy, but Western
Europe is facing soaring gas prices. And the country\u2019s intensive
animal agricultural practices are also at risk. This summer, a
conservative government coalition pledged to halve nitrogen emissions
by 2030, which would necessitate a dramatic reduction in the number
of animals raised in the country. Farmers and ranchers have protested,
and it remains to be seen how this standoff will be resolved."

[Lynn McGuire]

This is how civil wars get started.

Lynn

[Titus G]

On 16/12/22 02:11, Chris Buckley wrote:
snip

>
> Nitrogen emissions, especially of meat production.

Thank you.

> I see even New Zealand is having its issues here. Agriculture accounts
> for half of its greenhouse gas emissions and farmers have to cut 10% in
> the next 3 years (and more later).
>
> Chris

Our function was to be an offshore farm for England but most of those
free range sheep have been replaced by intensively farmed dairy cows
which have caused other environmental and social issues as well.
Farmers and farm owners including corporations have reacted negatively
to government proposals such as a "Fart Tax".
Corporations from Germany, Malaysia, .......... are buying land for
forestry plantations, it is strange.

[Titus G]

On 16/12/22 03:53, Scott Lurndal wrote:
snip

> The problem with most of those cutting edge sustainable agriculture
> technologies is that they're dependent upon cheap energy to produce
> fertilizers and farm equipement. Something that will become far more
> expensive in the fairly near future as fossil fuels become scarce. And
> without the cheap fertilizers (derived from methane), a lot of marginal
> land currently in production will no longer be economical or won't
> sustain current yields.
>
> "With their limited land and a rainy climate, the Dutch have become
> masters of efficiency. But there are challenges: The greenhouse
> industry has flourished in part because of cheap energy, but Western
> Europe is facing soaring gas prices. And the country\u2019s intensive
> animal agricultural practices are also at risk. This summer, a
> conservative government coalition pledged to halve nitrogen emissions
> by 2030, which would necessitate a dramatic reduction in the number
> of animals raised in the country. Farmers and ranchers have protested,
> and it remains to be seen how this standoff will be resolved."

Brilliant. Thank you.

[Paul S Person]

It should be kept in mind, in discussing greenhouse gasses, that once
you successfully reduce the emissions of #1, the former #2 now becomes
#1 and so attention shifts to /that/.

At some point, sanity will return.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

[Scott Lurndal]

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 16:02:59 +1300, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>On 16/12/22 02:11, Chris Buckley wrote:
>>snip
>>>
>>> Nitrogen emissions, especially of meat production.
>>
>>Thank you.
>>
>>> I see even New Zealand is having its issues here. Agriculture accounts
>>> for half of its greenhouse gas emissions and farmers have to cut 10% in
>>> the next 3 years (and more later).
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>>Our function was to be an offshore farm for England but most of those
>>free range sheep have been replaced by intensively farmed dairy cows
>>which have caused other environmental and social issues as well.
>>Farmers and farm owners including corporations have reacted negatively
>>to government proposals such as a "Fart Tax".
>>Corporations from Germany, Malaysia, .......... are buying land for
>>forestry plantations, it is strange.
>
>It should be kept in mind, in discussing greenhouse gasses, that once
>you successfully reduce the emissions of #1, the former #2 now becomes
>#1 and so attention shifts to /that/.
>

Although, to be fair, while methane is a potent (yet short-lived) greenhouse
gas, the production of CH4 from bovines is carbon-neutral; unlike
burning fossil fuels. And contrary to the modern meme, it's not farts,
but rather belching that produces the majority of bovine CH4.

As an aside, there was an article in AW&ST this week about using
a magnesium based additive in JET-A which captures carbon during
combustion and may actually be a carbon negative or neutral option
for jet fuel to augment the SAF (Sustainable Aviation Fuel) and
H2 (both burning and as fuel cells) aviation initiatives
underway around the world.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 2:15:17 PM UTC-7, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

> With those huge tracts of land for farming, why did the citizens of
> steel have to live on yeast? Was Earth exporting the crops to the
> Spacer worlds, as in footnote 3?

I know that when I read "The Caves of Steel" it did not occur to me to crunch the
numbers, to see if Asimov's world was overpopulated or not.

I would have thought that "export" didn't mean selling to Spacers, who were
germophobic about Earth, but to other nations on Earth. But the Spacers did rent
a tiny portion of those tracts of land to grow fruit for their Terran embassy, IIRC.

In any case, if, say, the cities of the United States of America grew to take up five
times their present land area, while containing twenty times the present U.S.
population... then the "vast tracts of land" _currently_ in use for farming in the
U.S. would have only shrunk by a negligible amount. Since there would be
twenty times as many people to feed from their produce, however, that only
the privileged could eat chicken once a week, and so on, did not seem unbelievable
to me in the slightest.

In fact, significant improvements in agricultural productivity would be required to
avoid mass famine, I would think.

As for agoraphobia... if robots weren't used on Earth for farming, because Earth
was afraid of robots, I would have guessed that the existing farmers are the
descendants of former farmers - they don't share in the general agoraphobia, as
that was brought about by becoming used to the extremely crowded conditions
of the large cities.

Since they would represent something like 0.1% of the population, their existence
wouldn't change the fact that psychological conditioning in infancy would be
required to create a new generation that wasn't agoraphobic that could travel
to non-Spacer worlds. Just having the farmers leave Earth would create a food
shortage.

So while there may be many flaws in Asimov's worldbuilding in The Caves of
Steel, I don't see this basic argument as making the story so impossible it's
difficult to suspend disbelief. It seems to make sense in the aspects being
disputed here.

John Savard

[Lynn McGuire]

You are pulling our legs. Adding a combustible metal to the combustion
process of jet engines ? What could go wrong ? At minimum, the metal
will probably plate out on the power turbine blades.

That road is littered with the remains of additives that did a whole lot
more than planned. Tetraethyl Lead, MTBE, etc, etc, etc.

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

"developed by Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in Massachusetts,
the formula, when burned, pulls CO2 out of the atmosphere; the fuel
also increases range".

" The proposed fuel is a slurry of Magnesium hydride and JET-A;
a compound of magnesium and hydrogen, magnesium hydride combusts
to release magnesium-oxide nanoparticles and water vapors, which
react with CO2 and water in the engine to produce magnesium
carbonate or magnesium bicarbonate, removing CO2 from the
atmosphere as a byproduct".

"The fuel should add 8% to the range per unit volume"

win-win

https://www.wpi.edu/news/wpi-researchers-create-method-making-net-zero-aviation-fuel

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 12/16/2022 8:37 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 16:02:59 +1300, Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16/12/22 02:11, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> snip
>>>
>>> Nitrogen emissions, especially of meat production.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>> I see even New Zealand is having its issues here. Agriculture accounts
>>> for half of its greenhouse gas emissions and farmers have to cut 10% in
>>> the next 3 years (and more later).
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> Our function was to be an offshore farm for England but most of those
>> free range sheep have been replaced by intensively farmed dairy cows
>> which have caused other environmental and social issues as well.
>> Farmers and farm owners including corporations have reacted negatively
>> to government proposals such as a "Fart Tax".
>> Corporations from Germany, Malaysia, .......... are buying land for
>> forestry plantations, it is strange.
>
> It should be kept in mind, in discussing greenhouse gasses, that once
> you successfully reduce the emissions of #1, the former #2 now becomes
> #1 and so attention shifts to /that/.
>
> At some point, sanity will return.

That assumes sanity was ever here in the first place. Which is a
questionable assumption when dealing with Homo Sapiens.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in
news:_f4nL.9110$5S78...@fx48.iad:

If it removed CO2 from the air, what does it do with it? It either
goes back out the back of the jet, floating in the upper
atmosphere, which probably has not been studied, or it stays in the
jet until something fails because it's coated with magnesium
bicragonate.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote in
news:tnimhb$3epub$1...@dont-email.me:

California is a *long* standing example of how, when government is
involved in environmental issues, sanity does *not* - ever -
return.

[Scott Lurndal]

The magnesium carbonate, which is insoluable, will precipate
and fall the to ground as fine dust. It is non-toxic and non-flamable,
and used as a food additive. It's what athletes use on their hands
when a firm grip is required. It is what makes Morton's salt live up
to its slogan "When it rains, it pours".

[Robert Carnegie]

The main points there are that methane isn't a neutral
substitute for CO2 in the atmosphere, it is getting on for
100 times worse than CO2 in terms of carbon atoms in
the wrong place overheating the planet (citation needed);
Wikipedia refers to a "net mean lifetime of 8.4 years"
of methane, which is shorter lived than CO2 pollution,
but not by much, proportionately; and I think someone
said that it mostly becomes CO2 anyway, but I don't
understand the chemistry section in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane>
- a page which does have an "out of date information"
warning. So, Just Say No to methane.

> As an aside, there was an article in AW&ST this week about using
> a magnesium based additive in JET-A which captures carbon during
> combustion and may actually be a carbon negative or neutral option
> for jet fuel to augment the SAF (Sustainable Aviation Fuel) and
> H2 (both burning and as fuel cells) aviation initiatives
> underway around the world.

One can walk.

[Alan]

On 2022-12-16 12:12, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in

>> "developed by Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in
>> Massachusetts,
>> the formula, when burned, pulls CO2 out of the atmosphere;
>> the fuel also increases range".
>>
>> " The proposed fuel is a slurry of Magnesium hydride and
>> JET-A;
>> a compound of magnesium and hydrogen, magnesium hydride
>> combusts to release magnesium-oxide nanoparticles and water
>> vapors, which react with CO2 and water in the engine to
>> produce magnesium carbonate or magnesium bicarbonate,
>> removing CO2 from the atmosphere as a byproduct".
>>
>> "The fuel should add 8% to the range per unit volume"
>>
>> win-win
>>
>> https://www.wpi.edu/news/wpi-researchers-create-method-making-net
>> -zero-aviation-fuel
>>
>>
> If it removed CO2 from the air, what does it do with it? It either
> goes back out the back of the jet, floating in the upper
> atmosphere, which probably has not been studied, or it stays in the
> jet until something fails because it's coated with magnesium
> bicragonate.
>

You are a near perfect exemplar of the saying:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove
all doubt".

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in

news:zk5nL.50093$iU59....@fx14.iad:

And bagnesium *bi*carbonate. If we get to ignore other byproducts
as long as one is harmless, I'll point out that gasolien powered
cars produce water.

which is insoluable, will precipate
> and fall the to ground as fine dust. It is non-toxic and
> non-flamable, and used as a food additive. It's what athletes
> use on their hands when a firm grip is required.

From the MSDS sheet for magnesium carbonate:

1.2. Relevant identified uses of the substance or mixture and uses
advised against

Magnesium for athletes, for example: climbing.

So apparently, the people who make MSDS sheets (who, after all,
recongized experts in the field) apparently disagree on how safe it
really is.

Can you point me to any peer reviewed studies on the long term
environmental effects of releasing large amounts (and with it in
jet fuel, it will be tons per year) into the atmosphere?

or has it, as I suspected, just _not been studied_ yet?

CFC were deemed utterly safe for decades, until somebody studied
the long term effects. DDT was a miracle insecticide for years,
until somebody studied it.

> It is what
> makes Morton's salt live up to its slogan "When it rains, it
> pours".
>

Morton's salt doesn't get pumped into the air by the ton.

*Has* it been studied as to long term environmental effects when
pumped into the atmostphere by the tone? If you don't answer, I'll
take that as admission that it hasn't.

[Lynn McGuire]

I won't be volunteering for the breathing aersoled magnesium oxide in a
closed room study. I have already got enough breathing problems with my
heart issues.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

Hard to cross oceans that way and tends to take a lot longer than people
have time for anymore.

[Robert Carnegie]

> Hard to cross oceans that way.

Most people, when you get down to it, don't really
need to cross an ocean.

[Lynn McGuire]

Why did the chicken cross the ocean ?

Lynn

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 1:09:35 PM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:

> >You are pulling our legs. Adding a combustible metal to the combustion
> >process of jet engines ? What could go wrong ? At minimum, the metal
> >will probably plate out on the power turbine blades.

> "developed by Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in Massachusetts,
> the formula, when burned, pulls CO2 out of the atmosphere; the fuel
> also increases range".
>
> " The proposed fuel is a slurry of Magnesium hydride and JET-A;
> a compound of magnesium and hydrogen, magnesium hydride combusts
> to release magnesium-oxide nanoparticles and water vapors, which
> react with CO2 and water in the engine to produce magnesium
> carbonate or magnesium bicarbonate, removing CO2 from the
> atmosphere as a byproduct".
>
> "The fuel should add 8% to the range per unit volume"

While it's nice if jet airplanes could extract carbon dioxide from the
atmosphere as they fly, instead of adding it... I am suspicious as
Lynn is.

For one thing, magnesium is a light metal, which is therefore used
in aircraft construction. So I'd be concerned that burning the stuff
in the vicinity of an airplane might promote chemical attack on the
structure of the craft.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 2:22:44 PM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> The magnesium carbonate, which is insoluable, will precipate
> and fall the to ground as fine dust. It is non-toxic and non-flamable,
> and used as a food additive. It's what athletes use on their hands
> when a firm grip is required. It is what makes Morton's salt live up
> to its slogan "When it rains, it pours".

Unlike bicarbonate of sodium, which is soluble in water, and has
many handy household uses.

Perhaps the chemical reaction in the engine that makes it actually
won't eat the magnesium in the airplane and destroy its structure
as I fear.

And something that's allowed in food likely isn't all that deadly
when inhaled, I will give you that.

Separating magnesium from where one finds it is expensive
because it's such a reactive metal. Thus, while it's worth it
to use it as a light structural metal, using it as a fuel is kind of
expensive. Of course, it's worth it to save us all from global
warming, and aircraft, as opposed to trains and buses, can't
run on trolleys.

Since it's mixed with conventional jet fuel, though, will it really
remove more carbon dioxide from the atmosphere than the
jet fuel puts in?

Since wood alcohol, unlike corn alcohol, doesn't compete with
food production, but it's biofuel, hence carbon neutral, I'd
advocate a less exotic solution to carbon neutral air travel.

1) Use methyl alcohol as fuel.

2) If it can't be used in jet engines, as it *can* be used in
internal combustion engines, use _propeller_ aircraft. It has
been possible to cross the Atlantic in those.

3) To further reduce fuel requirements for air travel,
use a balloon filled with helium to eliminate the need to
constantly generate lift, and the need to travel at high
speeds.

Of course, (3) would definitely be seen as a big step
backwards. But it would work for most freight, although
freight that doesn't need to be expedited could always go
by boat.

I know that NASA has made very lightweight airplanes
powered by solar panels. I think this is more amusing than
practical, but given the limited amount of energy a
lighter-than-air dirigible needs to go places, solar power might
be practical for them.

Of course, though, lighter-than-air craft have a fatal flaw. They're
so light that they're fragile, and the Earth's atmosphere has this
little thing called "weather".

So obvious solutions that don't require exotic new technology
have their limits - Robert Zubrin's idea of using methyl alcohol
to fuel cars, though, makes a lot of sense.

It's biofuel - so it's carbon neutral.

It's _almost_ as good as gasoline as a very compact means
of energy storage.

Presumably, it could also be used for flight, at least with
propeller engines, although maybe it could even be used in
jets eventually.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

I would tend to agree with that.

I mean, there is a _sensible_ traditional carbon-free way to cross oceans, but
it *also* takes a lot longer than people have time for any more.

One could *sail*.

With modern technology, one could add motorized propellers powered by
solar panels for when the ship is becalmed!

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> Most people, when you get down to it, don't really
> need to cross an ocean.

That is true.

But "most" is not "all". It's all very well to rejoice that most of the billions
living in India and China aren't going to take trans-oceanic trips by
aircraft even once during their lives, but those who _are_ in the jet set
are still producing a certain amount of carbon dioxide.

The problem is not that things could get worse, the problem is that they
need to get a lot better. So trying to solve even some of the more difficult
cases of making human activities carbon-free is worth effort.

John Savard

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 16/12/2022 13.19, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 2:15:17 PM UTC-7, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>
>> With those huge tracts of land for farming, why did the citizens of
>> steel have to live on yeast? Was Earth exporting the crops to the
>> Spacer worlds, as in footnote 3?
>
> I know that when I read "The Caves of Steel" it did not occur to me to crunch the
> numbers, to see if Asimov's world was overpopulated or not.

Chapter 2, "Round Trip on an Expressway", has some useful text:

[...] There were some 800 Cities on Earth, average population,
ten million.

It's not the former U.S. that has a population of 8e9, it's the
entire planet. (About the same as now) And the use of the word
"former" is deliberate, as the Earth doesn't have nations any
more (the TBI, not the FBI), so exporting is necessarily from
Earth to the Spacers.

> I would have thought that "export" didn't mean selling to Spacers, who were
> germophobic about Earth, but to other nations on Earth. But the Spacers did rent
> a tiny portion of those tracts of land to grow fruit for their Terran embassy, IIRC.

No, you don't. Again from Chapter 2:

Practically none of the Earth's population lived outside of the
Cities. [...]

But few humans were required to run the mines and ranches, to
exploit the farms and pipe the water, and these supervised at
long distance. Robots did the work better and required less.

> In any case, if, say, the cities of the United States of America grew to take up five
> times their present land area, while containing twenty times the present U.S.
> population...

It's the Earth, not the former U.S., that has eight billion people.

then the "vast tracts of land" _currently_ in use for farming in the
> U.S. would have only shrunk by a negligible amount. Since there would be
> twenty times as many people to feed from their produce, however, that only
> the privileged could eat chicken once a week, and so on, did not seem unbelievable
> to me in the slightest.

Which, of course, is where the "luxury market" part of "luxury market and
could be used for export purposes" text that I previously quoted comes from.

> In fact, significant improvements in agricultural productivity would be required to
> avoid mass famine, I would think.

Which was avoided by use of food yeast. See Francis Clousarr, the zymologist.

> As for agoraphobia... if robots weren't used on Earth for farming,

They were. See above.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.

[Scott Lurndal]

Where did magnesium oxide come into the discussion? Magnesium
carbonate was the topic...

Both Mg(HCO3)2 and MGCO3 are edible.

[Scott Lurndal]

I think you should leave chemistry to those with knowledge of
the subject.

[Dimensional Traveler]

From Lynn's knee-jerk hatred of anything that would in any conceivable
way reduce the use of petroleum products because that would reduce his
income.

[Dimensional Traveler]

You didn't need the last three words of that sentence with Quaddie. ;)

[Ninapenda Jibini]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in

news:iHlnL.13640$Ldj8...@fx47.iad:

Which still doesn't answer my question.

And you won't. Ever.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

[Ninapenda Jibini]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in

news:tIlnL.13641$Ldj8...@fx47.iad:

The question being, are the people behind this among those folks.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 9 December 2022 at 21:03:14 UTC, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
> > Five Swashbuckling SF Stories About Space Pirates
> >
> > Solving cash flow problems by causing cash flow problems for other
> > people IN SPACE!
> >
> > https://www.tor.com/2022/12/09/five-swashbuckling-sf-stories-about-space-pirates/ via @tordotcom
> >>"or even unjustly convicted of treason for unwittingly providing medical assistance to an enemy of King James II."
>
> Captain Blood!
>
> I saw that movie, read the Sabatini novel, answered a trivia question on it once while out with my brother's family,
> then got a chuckle from the table with the aside that before he became Captain Blood, he was...
>
>
>
> Doctor Blood!
>
>
> If you realize you can have two melodramatic names, go for them both!

Someone just asked about the notorious James Hook,
why was that his actual name. I decided to research -
well, to look in Wikipedia!
<https://qr.ae/prNow7>

And - it... isn't? It's a fake name for the book!

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <da9613fa-83f8-4dfc...@googlegroups.com>,

(Hal Heydt)
There are...problems...with dirigibles. For one thing, they're
kind of fragile and don't handle severe weather well.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:da9613fa-83f8-4dfc...@googlegroups.com:

> And something that's allowed in food likely isn't all that
> deadly when inhaled, I will give you that.
>

The Coalition to Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide would disagree with you.
*Has* disagreed with you, in fact.

And they are 100% correct (on that particular point).

[Lynn McGuire]

Didn't the USA Navy lose eight or so dirigibles in the 1920s, all 600
feet long or more ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airships_of_the_United_States_Navy

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>On 12/22/2022 11:32 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <da9613fa-83f8-4dfc...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 2:22:44 PM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> The magnesium carbonate, which is insoluable, will precipate
>>>> and fall the to ground as fine dust. It is non-toxic and non-flamable,
>>>> and used as a food additive. It's what athletes use on their hands
>>>> when a firm grip is required. It is what makes Morton's salt live up
>>>> to its slogan "When it rains, it pours".
>>>
>>> Unlike bicarbonate of sodium, which is soluble in water, and has
>>> many handy household uses.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the chemical reaction in the engine that makes it actually
>>> won't eat the magnesium in the airplane and destroy its structure
>>> as I fear.

Perhaps you could consult with a working Chemist first, rather than
speculate.

>>> Separating magnesium from where one finds it is expensive
>>> because it's such a reactive metal. Thus, while it's worth it
>>> to use it as a light structural metal, using it as a fuel is kind of
>>> expensive. Of course, it's worth it to save us all from global
>>> warming, and aircraft, as opposed to trains and buses, can't
>>> run on trolleys.

I suspect that creating the magnesium hydride and making it into
a slurry that can be mixed with JET-A efficiently and efficatiously
may be complicated, and perhaps energy intensive. To the extent that
the energy required for production is produced from non-carbon sources,
that shouldn't be a show-stopper, but may increase the cost of the
fuel - with the side effect of reducing emissions due to fewer
flights.

>>>
>>> Since it's mixed with conventional jet fuel, though, will it really
>>> remove more carbon dioxide from the atmosphere than the
>>> jet fuel puts in?

That's what the chemistry of the reaction concludes, as per the
article.

>>>
>>> Since wood alcohol, unlike corn alcohol, doesn't compete with
>>> food production, but it's biofuel, hence carbon neutral, I'd
>>> advocate a less exotic solution to carbon neutral air travel.
>>>
>>> 1) Use methyl alcohol as fuel.

"Today, methanol is mainly produced industrially by hydrogenation of carbon monoxide"

Another energy intensive process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Production

100 atm at 250C.

Mobile actually developed a process to produce gasoline from methanol fifty years ago;
ask them why it was abandoned.

>>> 3) To further reduce fuel requirements for air travel,
>>> use a balloon filled with helium to eliminate the need to
>>> constantly generate lift, and the need to travel at high
>>> speeds.

>>>

>>> Of course, though, lighter-than-air craft have a fatal flaw. They're
>>> so light that they're fragile, and the Earth's atmosphere has this
>>> little thing called "weather".
>>>
>>> So obvious solutions that don't require exotic new technology
>>> have their limits - Robert Zubrin's idea of using methyl alcohol
>>> to fuel cars, though, makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> It's biofuel - so it's carbon neutral.

Creation of methanol at scale sufficent to use as a fuel
is hardly carbon neutral. You must account for the entire
life-cycle, not just use of the fuel, but the creation as well.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in

news:KkkpL.19856$PXw7....@fx45.iad:

> Creation of methanol at scale sufficent to use as a fuel
> is hardly carbon neutral. You must account for the entire
> life-cycle, not just use of the fuel, but the creation as well.
>

That depends on whether your goal is environmental, or merely virtue
signaling (while routing billions to your union backers).

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:05:03 AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> >>> So obvious solutions that don't require exotic new technology
> >>> have their limits - Robert Zubrin's idea of using methyl alcohol
> >>> to fuel cars, though, makes a lot of sense.

> >>> It's biofuel - so it's carbon neutral.

> Creation of methanol at scale sufficent to use as a fuel
> is hardly carbon neutral. You must account for the entire
> life-cycle, not just use of the fuel, but the creation as well.

Robert Zubrin had assumed that methanol would be made
from grass clippings, sawdust, leaves, and corn husks. Thus
making it a biofuel that doesn't compete with food production.

Now, if the _cheapest_ way to make it is to use fossil fuels
to make carbon monoxide and then make hydrogen with fossil
fuels and add it... well, one will just have to use regulation,
taxes, and/or subsidies to *change* that. Surely that ought to
be so obvious as to hardly need to be mentioned.

The goal is to reduce carbon emissions, not simply signal
virtue. But to do so without impairing the ability of the American
people to drive cars, and have heavy industry, and a strong
military, and so on. So nuclear power and methyl alcohol
biofuel. And a regulatory climate premised on the goal of
cutting through everything that stands in the way.

Of course, though, the U.S. political system is currently
incapable of operating this way. Even in the absence of
a party choosing obstruction, the committee system is
a fatal flaw that interferes with getting things done.

So you get stuff like Obamacare. Instead of: the government
wants single-payer medicare, and boom, the appropriate
legislation is passed. Of course, though, I am still unable to
understand how the Republicans could have gotten a
majority in the House of Representatives. The Senate, yes.
But not the House.

Democracy won't produce the right results if they aren't the
will of the people. But I had not thought that this was the
problem.

John Savard

[Scott Lurndal]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 9:05:03 AM UTC-7, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> >>> So obvious solutions that don't require exotic new technology
>> >>> have their limits - Robert Zubrin's idea of using methyl alcohol
>> >>> to fuel cars, though, makes a lot of sense.
>
>> >>> It's biofuel - so it's carbon neutral.
>
>> Creation of methanol at scale sufficent to use as a fuel
>> is hardly carbon neutral. You must account for the entire
>> life-cycle, not just use of the fuel, but the creation as well.
>
>Robert Zubrin had assumed that methanol would be made
>from grass clippings, sawdust, leaves, and corn husks. Thus
>making it a biofuel that doesn't compete with food production.
>
>Now, if the _cheapest_ way to make it is to use fossil fuels
>to make carbon monoxide and then make hydrogen with fossil
>fuels and add it... well, one will just have to use regulation,
>taxes, and/or subsidies to *change* that. Surely that ought to
>be so obvious as to hardly need to be mentioned.

What other method is there to convert the "grass clippings"[*]
to methanol?

[*] And how much energy did it take to clip the grass and collect
the clippings and transport them to the methanol production facility?

[pete...@gmail.com]

Fermentation.

Pt

[Default User]

pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 10:13:49 PM UTC-5, Default User
>wrote:

>> It wouldn't likely be a problem, because "automated" included
>> positronic robots that could do basically anything human farmers
>>could.
>
>Part of the CoS worldbuilding was that Earthlings hated and feared
>robots, at least humanoid ones. Daneel had to pass as a human.

He didn't have to in general, just for being a police officer. There
were robots in the cities, like R. Sammy who was killed. Robot farmers
would be out of the general public so people's dislike would largely be
irrelevant.


Brian

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <to31e9$1gvvi$2...@dont-email.me>,

(Hal Heydt)
Lost 5 out of 6 by that list.

Odd side note... My father served on the USS Patoka while it was
configured as an airship support vessel. (There are pictures of
it on Wikipedia with various of the dirigibles moored to it for
resupply.)

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 20:50:49 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Hard to cross oceans that way.
>>
>> Most people, when you get down to it, don't really
>> need to cross an ocean.
>
>Why did the chicken cross the ocean ?
>

Because she was epoxied to the ocean liner?

[The Horny Goat]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:48:56 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Didn't the USA Navy lose eight or so dirigibles in the 1920s, all 600
>feet long or more ?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airships_of_the_United_States_Navy
>

Are you talking about the Goodyear Blimps used in 1942-43 for U-boat
spotting?

[Scott Lurndal]

He is likely referring to the USS Macon and USS Akron (by Goodyear-Zeppelin) that
were built in 1931 and 1933.

For which Hanger One was built:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangar_One_(Mountain_View,_California)

[Tony Nance]

Hangar One being only slightly smaller than its progenitor, the
Goodyear Airdock, where the USS Macon and USS Akron were built:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodyear_Airdock

Tony, who drove by the Goodyear Airdock 3 times last month

[Scott Lurndal]

Last time I passed Hanger One, it was just a framework with
no exterior. Dunno if it they've started skinning it up yet.

[pete...@gmail.com]

I drove by in November. There did seem to be a partial skin on the south side,.

Pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <8ec7rh93704hvlqjh...@4ax.com>,

(Hal Heydt)
While blimps and dirigibles are both lighter-than-air craft, they
are quite different sorts of the same. If you see a reference to
an "air ship", it's dirigible.

[Robert Woodward]

In article <ro6zD...@kithrup.com>,

I believe that blimps are a type of dirigible (the wikipedia article on
airships, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship>, lists 3 types of
airships, non-rigid, semi-rigid, and rigid - zeppelins being the most
famous examples of the rigid airships).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 9 January 2023 at 06:02:04 UTC, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <ro6zD...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
> > In article <8ec7rh93704hvlqjh...@4ax.com>,
> > The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
> > >On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 19:48:56 -0600, Lynn McGuire
> > ><lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>Didn't the USA Navy lose eight or so dirigibles in the 1920s, all 600
> > >>feet long or more ?
> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airships_of_the_United_States_Navy
> > >>
> > >Are you talking about the Goodyear Blimps used in 1942-43 for U-boat
> > >spotting?
> >
> > (Hal Heydt)
> > While blimps and dirigibles are both lighter-than-air craft, they
> > are quite different sorts of the same. If you see a reference to
> > an "air ship", it's dirigible.
> I believe that blimps are a type of dirigible (the wikipedia article on
> airships, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship>, lists 3 types of
> airships, non-rigid, semi-rigid, and rigid - zeppelins being the most
> famous examples of the rigid airships).

"dirigible" just means it can be steered. Whereas a blimp is dragged.

[Jay E. Morris]

So the Goodyear blimps aren't really blimps?

And the great god Wiki disagrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blimp

[Robert Carnegie]

It isn't just towed around? Well... okay.

[Paul S Person]

Well, to be fair, I suppose they /are/ towed when they are on the
ground and need to be moved into/out of a hanger.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

[Jack Bohn]

If I remember from the pamphlet that came with my Goodyear Blimp model with scrolling display, yes, the differentiation is that the shape is held by the tensions of the bags rather than a stiff framework.

The onomatopoeia mentioned in the mouseover text in today's xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/2722/

is from a folk story of some General inspecting a non-rigid airship, thumping the taut bag, and repeating the sound as "blimp!"
The other folk-etymology involves a categorization of the airship as "Type B - limp" as opposed to the rigid and semi-rigids. (Count von Zeppelin says, "No schnickering!")

--
-Jack

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>
> "dirigible" just means it can be steered. Whereas a blimp is dragged.

That is not the standard terminology. A blimp also has its own engines
and can be steered.