MT VOID, 09/18/20 -- Vol. 39, No. 12, Whole Number 2137

[evelynchim...@gmail.com]

THE MT VOID
Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
09/18/20 -- Vol. 39, No. 12, Whole Number 2137

Co-Editor: Mark Leeper, mle...@optonline.net
Co-Editor: Evelyn Leeper, ele...@optonline.net
Sending Address: evelynchim...@gmail.com
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Topics:
Correction to Convention Conflicts
THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON (comments
by Mark R. Leeper)
BEAUTY AND THE BEAST (LA BELLE ET LA BETE) (1946)
(comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)
Infomercials (letters of comment by Scott Dorsey,
Tim Merrigan, Kevin R, Dorothy J. Heydt)
A CANTERBURY TALE (letter of comment by Paul Dormer)
This Week's Reading (A STUDY IN BRIMSTONE, THE HELL-HOUND OF
THE BASKERVILLES, and MY GRAVE RITUAL)
(book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

===================================================================

TOPIC: Correction to Convention Conflicts

In the comments on convention conflicts in the 09/04/20 issue of
the MT VOID, I mis-attributed, "Mind you, I thought Con Jose back
in 2002 were taking the piss when they scheduled two panels about
Buffy in consecutive timeslots--at opposite ends of a very large
convention centre." I attributed it to Tim Merrigan, but Paul
Dormer writes, "That was me, responding to Tim." -[pd]

===================================================================

TOPIC: THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON (comments by Mark
R. Leeper)

Capsule: The image of THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON (1954) is
imprinted on our cultural psychology perhaps only surpassed by the
visages of King Kong, Frankenstein's creature, and Godzilla. The
creature himself is an icon more recognizable than any number of
screen monsters that have appeared in the 20th-century. The
science of the script is laughably problematic, but does not seem
much of a flaw. What is remembered is a short sequence with Julie
Adams swimming on the surface while unknown to her the creature is
swimming a symmetric dance. This is certainly one of the most
fondly remembered of the science fiction films of the 1950s. It
probably is not for the script, which frankly is flawed, but some
the visual images work well in the film. Still the film is a
classic.

Cast: Julie Adams, Richard Carlson, Richard Denning.
Dir: Jack Arnold.

A scientist doing research on the Amazon finds a fossil hand of
some strange creature that is part amphibian but still very
humanlike. He goes off to show other scientists what once lived in
the Brazilian Amazon. Unbeknownst to him there are fresher
specimens around and the real thing is extremely nasty. An
expedition to recover more of the fossil at first meets with
failure until the site of the search is moved to the nearby Black
Lagoon. There the expedition finds itself prey to the title
creature. Actually the creature does seem to stray from the
lagoon, since that is where we first see him, but most of the time
is lagoon seems to be where you find him and he is anxious to
defend this soggy turf.

The film has two basic conflicts. Obviously there is the creature
against the humans. And then there is a conflict of the success-
oriented scientist against the curiosity-oriented scientist, but
the script of the rivalry of the two scientists is cliched. The
characters are one-dimensional and the plot reduces the title
character to little more than just an angry bear besieging the
expedition. There is one advantage there, the creature is of a
believable strength. He is stronger than a human, but not absurdly
so. The is a more believable creature than the living tank in
ALIEN. The one touch that makes the creature interesting is his
fascination with Kay (played by Julie Adams), the female lead
actress, even though that makes little biological sense. The
creature would be attracted to a gill-woman. There is the
remarkable "underwater ballet" where Kay swims on the surface and
the creature swims under her does have a sort of eroticism. Also
making little biological sense is the crossing of an amphibian with
something so human-shaped. They are really pushing convergent
evolution particularly making the creature attracted to Kay.
Consider how many more people know what the creature looks like and
how few can picture the Martians from WAR OF THE WORLDS. Does the
writer think he himself could be attracted to a female gorilla, no
matter how cute?

But where the film gets its real class is in the quality of its
cinematography. Unlike Jack Arnold's It Came from Outer Space, the
shots are remarkably well-composed. While it is a little less true
of the underwater photography over which there was less control,
the majority of frames could stand by themselves as stills. It is
hard to balance that sense of composition with the demands of 3D
photography. The visual sense of this film is really the main
reason the film is so fondly remembered. The best touch of the
film is that look of the creature makes it one of the most
memorable monsters of the 1950s. On the other hand pieces of the
dialogue are awkward and the little science lectures that often
even get the science very wrong.

Obviously this monster is one that has struck some chord in the
audience that goes far beyond the film. This film gets a +1 on the
-4 to +4 scale or 7/10.

Turner Classic Movies is running this in both September (September
26, 2:00 AM) and October (October 12, 2:00 PM). [-mrl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: BEAUTY AND THE BEAST (LA BELLE ET LA BETE) (1946) (comments
by Evelyn C. Leeper)

Jean Cocteau combines elements of the Cinderella story with the
Beauty and the Beast story, namely the two mean sisters (in this
case, full sisters rather than stepsisters) who spend their time
dressing up and putting on airs while Belle scrubs the floor.

Cocteau conveys the magical atmosphere with simple in-camera trick.
Candles light themselves by the trick of being blown out and then
having the film run backwards. Sculptures come to life by having
actors' faces covered in a gray(?) make-up to match the rest of the
stonework. (Having the film in black and white makes this easier.)
When Belle travels through the hallway with windows, the actress is
on a wheeled dolly that is pulled smoothly so that she appears to
float through.

As is common, the Beast is too magnificent to be horrible. One can
argue that a fearsome beast can be magnificent--consider the lion--
but it still makes him a bit less beastly. Belle describes him as
ugly, but he is not. Quasimodo is ugly in most (all?) the film
versions in large part because of his asymmetry, but the Beast does
not have that flaw.

On the other hand, Avenant is handsome, but turns out to be a
louse. So Cocteau gives her the best of both worlds: the Beast's
appearance is changed to that of Avenant, while the (dead) Avenant
takes on the appearance of the Beast. All in all, this is an
incredibly lookist film (and story).

And then the Beast tells Belle they are going to fly to his kingdom
where she will find her father (who was ailing just a few days
earlier) and her sisters will serve her, and then they rise up into
the sky (heavens?) with billowing cape, and clouds, and everything
else that makes them look like Renaissance angels. Is Cocteau
trying to signal that they are dead and the Beast's kingdom is in
Heaven?

It is not clear at what point the Beast decides not to kill Belle.
Is it when Belle's father first mentions a daughter and the Beast
wants companionship more than vengeance? Or is it when he first
sees her?

Why does the Beast lap up water from the pond? He is perfectly
capable of drinking from a cup.

A technical note: The subtitles on the version I saw were
incomplete--not every line was translated--and often I would catch
a nuance in the French missing from the English. From example,
Belle uses the verb "sortir" to the Beast, "Sortie," which is
translated, "Go." But "sortir" has the meaning of "exit" or
"leave". In this case Belle is specifically telling him to leave
her room, not just to go in general. (When the horse is told to
go, that is just "Va!" the imperative of "aller".) [-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Infomercials (letters of comment by Scott Dorsey, Tim
Merrigan, Kevin R, Dorothy J. Heydt)

In response to Mark's comments on infomercials in the 09/11/20
issue of the MT VOID, Scott Dorsey writes:

Infomercials were more than half a century old back in 1990, and
are rapidly approaching the century mark. Here is an exciting
radio program from 1933:

<http://www.panix.com/~kludge/radio17.mp3>

Fidelity here is not great, and the band is a little bit on the
loose side, but the product does exactly what they claim. [-sd]

Tim Merrigan adds:

Until sometime in the late 50s or early 60s it was not uncommon for
variety and similar shows to incorporate commercials into the
programming. That sounds like this is more of that than that the
programming is specifically designed to promote the product. So,
I'm not sure it qualifies as an infomercial. If this is an
infomercial, so was the Texaco Star Theater. [-tm]

Kevin R writes:

I remember the cast of "The Beverly Hillbillies" appearing in
Kellogg's Corn Flakes spots:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqgrlpYxYF4>

The SUPERMAN TV cast flogged them, too. Of course, on the radio,
The Man of Tomorrow was sponsored by Kellogg's Pep.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQYmqYC2sjY>

... and introducing Sugar Smacks:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfbeXrLzZW8>

Captain Marvel hung out with Mr Tawny, but Kal-El was pals with
Tony!:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHqzDQLT-iY>

Dorothy J. Heydt adds:

And I remember whoeveritwas played Tom Corbett, Space Cadet,
flogging Wheaties.

Also, meeting the studio audience after the show (which was
broadcast live), and answering questions about space and science
and stuff. Which the actor could not have been expected to know;
so they stood him in front of a curtain with a plug in his ear, and
Willy Ley on the other side with a microphone.

/google

Frankie Thomas was his name.

.... and IMDB also had a line with the same series title and "in
development." No other information. Dear me. [-djh]

And Evelyn adds:

If you watch old television shows from the 1950s (in specific,
"Meet The Goldbergs"), you will see commercials worked into the
plot. (As Raphael A. Riccio writes in an Amazon review, "The early
episodes also included Molly pitching various products such as
coffee, vitamins and knives in ads that were cleverly worked into
the beginning of the script.") Today's product placement is merely
visual (so far as I can tell), but back then Molly Goldberg
actually told everyone about the benefits of Sanka. [-ecl]

Paul Dormer writes:

I watch live baseball on BT Sports in the UK and it would appear
that baseball coverage still does incorporate commercials into the
commentary. But it seems BT are not allowed to show these. So you
hear a couple of words of the ad and then suddenly the screen
blanks to the BT Sports logo, hold music is played, and then they
cut back to the game.

Not sure why they have to do this. It's not as if I'm like to try
and buy something being advertised when the nearest place I could
is over 3000 miles away. [-pd]

Jay E. Morris responds:

I know sports commentators will often be hyping other network shows
during the game. Perhaps it's BT not wanting to have mentioned
shows not available? Or on another network? [-jem]

Paul answers:

I recorded last night's Sunday night game and I've just been
watching it. It's not the commentators doing it, it's an actual
short ad interpolated in the middle of the commentary - not a full
ad break. They didn't cut away in time for a couple, so I did see
the start of an ad for Grubhub, who I don't believe deliver round
my way. The other was for some offer with T-Mobile.

Certainly on the NFL coverage on Sky, you're always getting ads for
upcoming shows, some of which are even shown over here (but not at
the time and day advertised). [-pd]

And Jay says:

Oh, those. I think it's because they don't want to go to a full
commercial break but it's time to earn some money. No idea on
those. [-jem]

Kevin R adds:

Other live broadcasts have done this. As early as 1926, Bulova
produced its first radio commercial. "At the tone, its 8 PM, B-U-L-
O-V-A Bulova watch time." I used to hear a version of this on New
York radio decades later. That was likely all-news WCBS (880 AM)
or WINS (1010 wins New York!)

The in-game, mid-commentary ad is known as a "drop-in." Baseball
and other live sports don't have "hard breaks" requiring action to
stop and ads shown. A baseball half inning can have a side set
down in as little as three pitches, or the team at the plate could
"bat around." The NY Times explained the drop-in, here:

<https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/sports/baseball/radio-
broadcasts-balance-baseball-with-advertising.html>

[Two years ago the Mets moved to WCBS radio, when the Yankees took
over WFAN (formerly WNBC).] [-kr]

[This is a long continuation of this discussion of commercials in
live sports at
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.fandom/c/C7CZI-OFCVI>.
You may need a Google (free) account to read it. -ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: A CANTERBURY TALE (letter of comment by Paul Dormer)

Incidentally, have you ever seen the film A CANTERBURY TALE? It's
very little to do with Chaucer, a wartime piece from Powell and
Pressburger about three people thrown together by circumstance on
the way to Canterbury, and a man who puts glue in women's hair. A
curious film, but worth watching. It was on TV recently and I saw
it again. [-pd]

Evelyn responds:

I saw it back in 2011, but don't recall it very well. [-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: This Week's Reading (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

I have been reading G. S. Denning's stories of "Warlock Holmes";
there are five volumes, but I have only the first three: A STUDY IN
BRIMSTONE (Titan, ISBN 978-1-7832-9971-3), THE HELL-HOUND OF THE
BASKERVILLES (Titan, ISBN 978-1-7832-9973-7), and MY GRAVE RITUAL
(Titan, ISBN 978-1-7832-9975-1). These retell Sherlock Holmes
stories making Watson the brains and Holmes a warlock with magical
powers, Groggson an ogre and Lestrade a vampire. Not surprisingly,
these are laced with humor. ("They await their master's summons,
lying dormant in some faraway land--a land of gray skies and
shattered hopes, where no man ever smiles. Philadelphia, I seem to
recall.")

They are not great literature, but they are amusing enough for
Sherlock Holmes fans; other readers will not get the references and
re-workings. [-ecl]

===================================================================

Mark Leeper
mle...@optonline.net


I never want to hear another bad word about cultural
practices of the Aztecs, the Egyptians, the Celts etc
now that we have "a pyrotechnical celebration of fetal
genitalia burned down 100k acres in 2020" in our
history books.
--G. Willow Wilson

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <00aad636-cfec-4801...@googlegroups.com>,

ele...@optonline.net <evelynchim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>THE MT VOID
>Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
>09/18/20 -- Vol. 39, No. 12, Whole Number 2137
>
>

>TOPIC: THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON (comments by Mark
>R. Leeper)
>

....

> ... >They are really pushing convergent

>evolution particularly making the creature attracted to Kay.
>Consider how many more people know what the creature looks like and
>how few can picture the Martians from WAR OF THE WORLDS.

Oh. I remember that Martian vividly, although one sees it only
for a few seconds. It's one of those etched-onto-the-retina
images. YMMV. Note, if you can remember it, that the Martian is
terrified of either the humans or their flashlight ... I'll have
to get out the DVD and watch it again.

> ... Does the

>writer think he himself could be attracted to a female gorilla, no
>matter how cute?

John Collier wrote a novel called _His Monkey Wife._ Although
(mind, I haven't read it) the bride appears to be a chimp, not a
gorilla.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

[Gary McGath]

On 9/20/20 9:45 AM, ele...@optonline.net wrote:

> TOPIC: BEAUTY AND THE BEAST (LA BELLE ET LA BETE) (1946) (comments
> by Evelyn C. Leeper)

I love that movie.

> Cocteau conveys the magical atmosphere with simple in-camera trick.
> Candles light themselves by the trick of being blown out and then
> having the film run backwards.

Clever. The trick of running the film backwards is also used in the
silent version of _The Ten Commandments_ for the parting of the Red Sea.

> On the other hand, Avenant is handsome, but turns out to be a
> louse. So Cocteau gives her the best of both worlds: the Beast's
> appearance is changed to that of Avenant, while the (dead) Avenant
> takes on the appearance of the Beast. All in all, this is an
> incredibly lookist film (and story).

Is it? Belle regards the Beast as hideous, even if that isn't well
conveyed, and learns to see beyond that.

>
> And then the Beast tells Belle they are going to fly to his kingdom
> where she will find her father (who was ailing just a few days
> earlier) and her sisters will serve her, and then they rise up into
> the sky (heavens?) with billowing cape, and clouds, and everything
> else that makes them look like Renaissance angels. Is Cocteau
> trying to signal that they are dead and the Beast's kingdom is in
> Heaven?

The ending felt like a letdown to me. The special effects overwhelm the
characters.

> Why does the Beast lap up water from the pond? He is perfectly
> capable of drinking from a cup.

I think the idea is that he's beastly in psychology as well as appearance.

> A technical note: The subtitles on the version I saw were
> incomplete--not every line was translated--and often I would catch
> a nuance in the French missing from the English. From example,
> Belle uses the verb "sortir" to the Beast, "Sortie," which is
> translated, "Go." But "sortir" has the meaning of "exit" or
> "leave". In this case Belle is specifically telling him to leave
> her room, not just to go in general. (When the horse is told to
> go, that is just "Va!" the imperative of "aller".) [-ecl]

"Va ou je veux aller, Le Magnifique. Va! Va! Va!"

(Accent mark omitted for the sake of sticking to ASCII.)


--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB

[Paul Dormer]

In article <00aad636-cfec-4801...@googlegroups.com>,

evelynchim...@gmail.com () wrote:

>
> Cocteau conveys the magical atmosphere with simple in-camera trick.
> Candles light themselves by the trick of being blown out and then
> having the film run backwards. Sculptures come to life by having
> actors' faces covered in a gray(?) make-up to match the rest of the
> stonework. (Having the film in black and white makes this easier.)
> When Belle travels through the hallway with windows, the actress is
> on a wheeled dolly that is pulled smoothly so that she appears to
> float through.
>

I haven't seen that film for years, but I did watch Cocteau's Orphee
again last year. (I'd just been to see the Philip Glass opera and I
wanted to see it again.)

Another simple special effect in that. Someone puts their hand into a
mirror. It was actually a bath of mercury and the image was rotated so
it looked like a vertical mirror.

At least the person was wearing gloves when they did that. Even in the
sixties we were handling mercury with bare hands in school chemistry
lessons.

Actually, I think it was part of the plot. A special pair of gloves was
needed in order to enter a mirror.

>
> A technical note: The subtitles on the version I saw were
> incomplete--not every line was translated--and often I would catch
> a nuance in the French missing from the English. From example,
> Belle uses the verb "sortir" to the Beast, "Sortie," which is
> translated, "Go." But "sortir" has the meaning of "exit" or
> "leave". In this case Belle is specifically telling him to leave
> her room, not just to go in general. (When the horse is told to
> go, that is just "Va!" the imperative of "aller".) [-ecl]

I am reminded of a subtitling problem I saw in a French film shown on the
BBC, it must have been back in the eighties.

It was a slightly surreal policier. The detective finds a woman standing
over the corpse of her husband. Instead of arresting her, he spends the
night with her. The next morning, he's getting dressed, she's still in
bed.

"Did you sleep well?"" he asks, according to the subtitle.

I could hear the actual French of the reply:

"Oui. Et vous, uh, tu?"

The subtitle was just something like, "Yes, and you?"

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:

> I could hear the actual French of the reply:
>
> "Oui. Et vous, uh, tu?"
>
> The subtitle was just something like, "Yes, and you?"

There's a scene in _Your Name._ where one of the protagonists is
stumbling over what pronoun they should use for themselves during a
conversation. The subtitles are something along the lines of "I (wrong
for X reason) ... I (wrong for Y reason) ... I". No idea how the
English dub handled it - I won't watch dubs.

--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press

[Tim Merrigan]

Considering that standard English doesn't use the informal, so most
people wouldn't understand the significance of "Yes, and you, uh,
thou," how would you have translated it?
--

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Considering that standard English doesn't use the informal, so most
>people wouldn't understand the significance of "Yes, and you, uh,
>thou," how would you have translated it?

It goes both ways. I remember watching Go West-- a Marx Brothers film--
with French subtitles. Groucho asks a native american if he's the chief
that goes from Chicago to Los Angeles in two days (which is a joke about
a train which would not translate well to a European audience). The
subtitles replaced it with a completely different joke altogether.

And then there is Jerry Lewis. The guy who dubs Jerry Lewis into French
is actually funny and his jokes are much better than Lewis' too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2d02f9...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) writes:
>
>> I could hear the actual French of the reply:
>>
>> "Oui. Et vous, uh, tu?"
>>
>> The subtitle was just something like, "Yes, and you?"
>
>There's a scene in _Your Name._ where one of the protagonists is
>stumbling over what pronoun they should use for themselves during a
>conversation. The subtitles are something along the lines of "I (wrong
>for X reason) ... I (wrong for Y reason) ... I". No idea how the
>English dub handled it - I won't watch dubs.

What was the original language? Japanese maybe? (About which I
know not much, but I believe there are various honorific grades
of pronouns; does this include first-person singular?)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <vqphmf9rkmqfm9fub...@4ax.com>,

The closest thing we've had in English for several centuries now
is use of first name vs. last name. Miss Manners gave the
example of a 19th-century gent saying to his beloved, "Miss Smith
... may I call you Martha?" It's the equivalent of the Spanish
"vamos a tutearnos," which I saw in my second-year Spanish text,
in which the two start using _tu_ to one another *and*
simultaneously start using first names.

But switching from last to first name is going out rapidly, at
least in the US; everybody first-names everybody else, or so it
sounds to a casual ear.

[John Halpenny]

I was in Texas some years ago with some older gentlemen who addressed me as "you all" until they got to know me well enough to just use "you"

John

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> In article <m2d02f9...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>
>>There's a scene in _Your Name._ where one of the protagonists is
>>stumbling over what pronoun they should use for themselves during a
>>conversation. The subtitles are something along the lines of "I (wrong
>>for X reason) ... I (wrong for Y reason) ... I". No idea how the
>>English dub handled it - I won't watch dubs.
>
> What was the original language? Japanese maybe? (About which I
> know not much, but I believe there are various honorific grades
> of pronouns; does this include first-person singular?)

'Twas. Japanese has _oodles_ of classifiers (they aren't pronouns) for
first and second person, encoding things such as absolute social
position, relative position between speaker and hearer, etc. (None for
third person. For third, you use name, job, etc. And yes, there's a
whole flotilla of honorific suffixes.)

(Also, Japanese doesn't really have grammatical number. In a very real
sense, all Japanese nouns are mass nouns - you have to add a suffix to
turn one into a count noun before you can specify how many there are.
And the suffix depends on (mostly) what shape the thing is. (This is
still simpler than what Navajo does.))

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> The closest thing we've had in English for several centuries now
> is use of first name vs. last name. Miss Manners gave the
> example of a 19th-century gent saying to his beloved, "Miss Smith
> ... may I call you Martha?"

...

> But switching from last to first name is going out rapidly, at
> least in the US; everybody first-names everybody else, or so it
> sounds to a casual ear.

And as a second-order phenomenon there's full first name vs. brief
vs. diminutive. (Viz. Russian, with full-first-name-and-patronymic
vs. three different forms of diminutive, one of which only entered wide
usage in the Nineties.)

[Scott Dorsey]

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>
>And as a second-order phenomenon there's full first name vs. brief
>vs. diminutive. (Viz. Russian, with full-first-name-and-patronymic
>vs. three different forms of diminutive, one of which only entered wide
>usage in the Nineties.)

"I can call him Andreshka but you can't call him Andreshka."
-- Andrey's girlfriend

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <9d82fd93-7eef-4aa8...@googlegroups.com>,

And there's the story of the Yorkshireman who said to his
underling, "Don't tha thou me afore I thous thee!"

[Keith F. Lynch]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> But switching from last to first name is going out rapidly, at least
> in the US; everybody first-names everybody else, or so it sounds to
> a casual ear.

I agree. "They call me Mr. Tibbs" in the 1967 movie, _In the Heat of
the Night_ has aged badly. To modern audiences, Mr. Tibbs sounds very
stuck up.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> Another simple special effect in that. Someone puts their hand
> into a mirror. It was actually a bath of mercury and the image
> was rotated so it looked like a vertical mirror.

> At least the person was wearing gloves when they did that. Even
> in the sixties we were handling mercury with bare hands in school
> chemistry lessons.

Metallic mercury isn't particularly dangerous. One nurse attempted
suicide by injecting herself with about a kilo of it. It didn't hurt
her at all. It did make her x-rays look a lot more interesting.

You wouldn't want to sleep every night on a bed made of it, as a few
rich people did. But the real danger is from methyl mercury. One
person died because she got a single drop of that stuff on the outside
of the latex gloves she was wearing.

[Kevrob]

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 10:20:14 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > But switching from last to first name is going out rapidly, at least
> > in the US; everybody first-names everybody else, or so it sounds to
> > a casual ear.
>
> I agree. "They call me Mr. Tibbs" in the 1967 movie, _In the Heat of
> the Night_ has aged badly. To modern audiences, Mr. Tibbs sounds very
> stuck up.

An African-American professional demanding a form of
respect normally only accorded to white folks from a
white law enforcement officer?

I'd say that would resonate, today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6n8VyqaCQ4

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> I agree. "They call me Mr. Tibbs" in the 1967 movie, _In the Heat of
>> the Night_ has aged badly. To modern audiences, Mr. Tibbs sounds very
>> stuck up.

> An African-American professional demanding a form of respect normally
> only accorded to white folks from a white law enforcement officer?

I know the context. Do you really think there are any major movies
about wrongful accusations that I haven't watched?

But today, regardless of race, everyone would address everyone else by
their first name, and nobody would take offense at it. On the other
hand, the cop's casual use of the N-word would get him fired, unlike
merely killing an innocent person or three.

[Kevrob]

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >> I agree. "They call me Mr. Tibbs" in the 1967 movie, _In the Heat of
> >> the Night_ has aged badly. To modern audiences, Mr. Tibbs sounds very
> >> stuck up.
>
> > An African-American professional demanding a form of respect normally
> > only accorded to white folks from a white law enforcement officer?
>
> I know the context. Do you really think there are any major movies
> about wrongful accusations that I haven't watched?
>

There are sure to be some reading the group who hadn't
seen the film, or read the book.

> But today, regardless of race, everyone would address everyone else by
> their first name, and nobody would take offense at it.

Having just spent the last 10 years doing customer care by
phone, and ~25 years before that in brick and mortar retail,
perhaps I have different experiences and sensibilities. I
have interacted with people who are fine with "hey, you!"
all the way to folks who are very bristly when they are not
addressed with honorifics they feel are their due.

My default has always been to start out with formal address,
then to use less formal forms if invited to.

I have worked in cube farms where all co-workers were on a
first-name basis, and I'd rack my brain sometimes trying
to find out a last name when I needed one.

> On the other hand, the cop's casual use of the N-word would
> get him fired, unlike merely killing an innocent person or three.
> --

In `67, Gillespie's use of that word might get him elected
to the state legislature. :)

--
Kevin R

[Paul Dormer]

In article <qH0vy...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>
> The closest thing we've had in English for several centuries now
> is use of first name vs. last name.

I remember hearing recently a piece of comic verse the gist of which was
a conversation between Jerome K. Jerome and Ford Maddox Ford about the
problems they have with their names. If some just says "Jerome" are they
being stand-offish or unnecessarily informal.
?

[Paul Dormer]

In article <vqphmf9rkmqfm9fub...@4ax.com>, tp...@ca.rr.com

(Tim Merrigan) wrote:

>
> Considering that standard English doesn't use the informal, so most
> people wouldn't understand the significance of "Yes, and you, uh,
> thou," how would you have translated it?

Yes, my point was that it was untranslatable and you have to bear in mind
when dealing with a translated text, you are not always getting the full
picture.

There's a rather fun book called Is That a Fish in Your Ear by David
Bellos on the joys and pitfalls of translation.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <m2d02f9...@kelutral.omcl.org>, spco...@omcl.org (Steve

Coltrin) wrote:

> No idea how the
> English dub handled it - I won't watch dubs.

Yes, I dislike dubbed films. The body language always looks wrong for
what they are saying, no matter how good a translation it is.

Which reminds me. There was a series on UK television recently called
Spides, an alien invasion story set in modern Berlin (and filmed in all
the grungiest parts, as far as I could see - there are lots of really
nice parts in Berlin).

It was an oddity. It was written for German television but no German
channel would buy it, so the writer sold it to an American company, the
script was translated into English, but it was then filmed in Berlin with
a mostly German cast. The clash of German acting styles with English
dialogue was more alien than the aliens.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <rkat8g$30i$1...@panix2.panix.com>, klu...@panix.com (Scott

Dorsey) wrote:

>
> It goes both ways. I remember watching Go West-- a Marx Brothers
> film--
> with French subtitles. Groucho asks a native american if he's the
> chief that goes from Chicago to Los Angeles in two days (which is a
> joke about
> a train which would not translate well to a European audience). The
> subtitles replaced it with a completely different joke altogether.

I have heard a report - possibly apocryphal - as told by an Englishman
watching the film Cross of Iron being shown in a Paris cinema. The film
opens with an extended action sequence with no dialogue. Then a head
peeps over a parapet and see a line or armoured vehicles approaching.

"Tanks!" he cries.

The subtitle read, "Merci".

[Scott Dorsey]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>Which reminds me. There was a series on UK television recently called
>Spides, an alien invasion story set in modern Berlin (and filmed in all
>the grungiest parts, as far as I could see - there are lots of really
>nice parts in Berlin).
>
>It was an oddity. It was written for German television but no German
>channel would buy it, so the writer sold it to an American company, the
>script was translated into English, but it was then filmed in Berlin with
>a mostly German cast. The clash of German acting styles with English
>dialogue was more alien than the aliens.

By all means, watch the 1953 Flash Gordon television show. Not the original
serial, not the animated remake, the one in-between.

It was shot in Germany which at the time was barely recovered from the war,
so there were plenty of bombed out areas for scenery. Other than the three
lead actors, nobody spoke English and memorized their lines phonetically.
The effect was a little bit creepy which was sometimes effective and sometimes
not.

We have shown a couple episodes at Arisia and I am sure some are online.
--scott

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkcpi5$pqp$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
>>Which reminds me. There was a series on UK television recently called
>>Spides, an alien invasion story set in modern Berlin (and filmed in all
>>the grungiest parts, as far as I could see - there are lots of really
>>nice parts in Berlin).
>>
>>It was an oddity. It was written for German television but no German
>>channel would buy it, so the writer sold it to an American company, the
>>script was translated into English, but it was then filmed in Berlin with
>>a mostly German cast. The clash of German acting styles with English
>>dialogue was more alien than the aliens.
>
>By all means, watch the 1953 Flash Gordon television show. Not the original
>serial, not the animated remake, the one in-between.
>
>It was shot in Germany which at the time was barely recovered from the war,
>so there were plenty of bombed out areas for scenery. Other than the three
>lead actors, nobody spoke English and memorized their lines phonetically.
>The effect was a little bit creepy which was sometimes effective and sometimes
>not.

Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
phonetically.

[Scott Dorsey]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>

>Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
>phonetically.

Yes, and his last couple while sleepwalking.

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 10:38:06 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >
> >Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
> >phonetically.
>
> Yes, and his last couple while sleepwalking.

Morphine will do that to one.

Is the title "Is That a Fish in Your Ear" a
reference to h2g2?

--
Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkd28c$1of$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>
>>Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
>>phonetically.
>
>Yes, and his last couple while sleepwalking.

Well, the only DVDs I have of him are _M_ (in German, of course)
and _The Raven_, in which he did not appear to be sleepwalking.
(Also starring Boris Karloff and VIncent Price, plus a very very
young Jack Nicholson.)

[Paul Dormer]

In article <a49462b3-d1eb-41d8...@googlegroups.com>,

kev...@my-deja.com (Kevrob) wrote:

>
> Is the title "Is That a Fish in Your Ear" a
> reference to h2g2?

I would say so, but I can't remember if he stated it explicitly. It's
been a few years since I read it and it's downstairs at the moment and
I'm upstairs.

Incidentally, we were talking about dubbing. Bellos mentions how in
around the time of Christ, in synagogues in Palestine, the spoken
language of the Jews was Aramaic. The preacher (rabbi? I'm not too
familiar with Jewish tradition) would read the texts in Hebrew and
someone would read an Aramaic translation speaking over the Hebrew
reading. He called this lecterning.

He goes on to say that today in some east European countries, when
foreign TV programmes and films are shown on television, they can't
afford to have them dubbed. Instead, an actor reads the translation on
top of the original soundtrack. I certainly noticed this when I was in
Poland for a con about twenty years ago.

Bellos was born in the UK and is about eight years older than me. I
wonder if he remembers the easter European films we got on children's TV
on the BBC in the sixties. These, too, had a single actor reading the
translation and you could hear in the background the original
German/Russian/Czech etc.

One of the most famous was the East German The Singing, Ringing Tree. I
remember this scene even after sixty years (only it was in black and
white for me):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAF3fWo8aoM

[Tim Merrigan]

As did Bela Lugosi, but he'd been playing Dracula on stage in
Hungarian for some time, by the time the movie was made.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:37:00 GMT, p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer)
wrote:

I was there too; pretty scary to an impressionable kid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XqMF5ou7hE

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

I'm told that's extremely common in India: a movie will film three or
four versions in various languages, and actors will learn the lines for
the languages they don't know transliterated into the script of their
milk language.

[Kevrob]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
> > In article <rkcpi5$pqp$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> > Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>Other than the three lead actors, nobody spoke English and memorized
> >>their lines phonetically. The effect was a little bit creepy which
> >>was sometimes effective and sometimes not.
> >
> > Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
> > phonetically.
>
> I'm told that's extremely common in India: a movie will film three or
> four versions in various languages, and actors will learn the lines for
> the languages they don't know transliterated into the script of their
> milk language.
>
> --

The comment about Lorre "sleepwalking" led me to this:

[quote]

"I made my films with a kind of sleepwalking security," says Fritz Lang.
"I did things which I thought were right. Period." Thus begins this
fascinating interview with the great Austrian-born director.

[/quote]

http://www.openculture.com/2012/01/a_rare_interview_with_fritz_lang_and_his_1931_masterpiece_of_suspense_imi.html

As you know, Bob, Lang made "Metropolis," and also "M," which
starred Lorre.

[Scott Dorsey]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <rkd28c$1of$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
>>>phonetically.
>>
>>Yes, and his last couple while sleepwalking.
>
>Well, the only DVDs I have of him are _M_ (in German, of course)
>and _The Raven_, in which he did not appear to be sleepwalking.
>(Also starring Boris Karloff and VIncent Price, plus a very very
>young Jack Nicholson.)

Oh, watch him in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea to see the old fat Disneyfied
Lorre. I recall him as kind of phoning in his part in the Raven too though.

[Gary McGath]

On 9/22/20 11:53 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> Well, the only DVDs I have of him are _M_ (in German, of course)
> and _The Raven_, in which he did not appear to be sleepwalking.
> (Also starring Boris Karloff and VIncent Price, plus a very very
> young Jack Nicholson.)
>

"The Raven" is a lot of fun.

--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB

[Gary McGath]

On 9/22/20 2:58 PM, Steve Coltrin wrote:
> begin fnord
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> In article <rkcpi5$pqp$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Other than the three lead actors, nobody spoke English and memorized
>>> their lines phonetically. The effect was a little bit creepy which
>>> was sometimes effective and sometimes not.
>>
>> Peter Lorre did his first few English-language films
>> phonetically.
>
> I'm told that's extremely common in India: a movie will film three or
> four versions in various languages, and actors will learn the lines for
> the languages they don't know transliterated into the script of their
> milk language.

Even today, we have actors delivering their lines in Klingon, and few if
any of them know the language. Other alien languages often show up in
movies.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkdtba$cvh$1...@dont-email.me>,

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 9/22/20 11:53 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> Well, the only DVDs I have of him are _M_ (in German, of course)
>> and _The Raven_, in which he did not appear to be sleepwalking.
>> (Also starring Boris Karloff and VIncent Price, plus a very very
>> young Jack Nicholson.)
>>
>
>"The Raven" is a lot of fun.

Yes, it is. All the way to Karloff's final line.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <m2r1qt8...@kelutral.omcl.org>, spco...@omcl.org (Steve

Coltrin) wrote:

>
> I'm told that's extremely common in India: a movie will film three or
> four versions in various languages, and actors will learn the lines for
> the languages they don't know transliterated into the script of their
> milk language.

That seems to have been common in the early days of sound film before
dubbing was adopted. I remember some years ago seeing the English
language version of the German film Floating Platform 1 Does Not Answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.P.1

I also recall seeing a documentary about Buster Keaton which showed a
clip from an early sound film of his, made in Spanish. (I do not know if
Keaton spoke Spanish.)

[Paul Dormer]

In article <XnsAC40C51789...@144.76.35.198>,

nots...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd,John) wrote:

>
> I was there too; pretty scary to an impressionable kid.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XqMF5ou7hE

And I remember that spoof.

They've been having a Fast Show retrospective recently, a bit late for
their 25th anniversary, but not that sketch.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <memo.20200922...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

> He called this lecterning.

My mistake. Lectoring.

Bellos does mention Hitchhiker in the text so I presume the title of the
book is a deliberate reference.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <memo.2020092...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,

Hollywood studios sometimes made Spanish-language versions of
films they were also making in English. I used to have a pair of
DVDs (I wonder if I still have them?) of _Dracula_, one with the
original English-speaking cast* and one made on the same sets
(at night) with a Spanish-speaking cast.

_____
*No, I don't know if Lugosi was actually *speaking* English at
that stage or just memorizing the sounds.

[Tim Merrigan]

I've heard that Dracula was made in, at least, English and Spanish,
with different actors, including Carlos Villarías, as Dracula, with
the Spanish language version shot at night on the same sets the
English language version was shot on during the day.

Many people think it is a better film than the English language
version.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <80mmmflcikeks8g67...@4ax.com>,

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:37 +0100 (BST), p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul
>Dormer) wrote:
>
>>In article <m2r1qt8...@kelutral.omcl.org>, spco...@omcl.org (Steve
>>Coltrin) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I'm told that's extremely common in India: a movie will film three or
>>> four versions in various languages, and actors will learn the lines for
>>> the languages they don't know transliterated into the script of their
>>> milk language.
>>
>>That seems to have been common in the early days of sound film before
>>dubbing was adopted. I remember some years ago seeing the English
>>language version of the German film Floating Platform 1 Does Not Answer:
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.P.1
>>
>>I also recall seeing a documentary about Buster Keaton which showed a
>>clip from an early sound film of his, made in Spanish. (I do not know if
>>Keaton spoke Spanish.)
>
>I've heard that Dracula was made in, at least, English and Spanish,
>with different actors, including Carlos Villarías, as Dracula, with
>the Spanish language version shot at night on the same sets the
>English language version was shot on during the day.
>
>Many people think it is a better film than the English language
>version.

Possible. It's been a long time since I saw either of them. But
enough remained of my high-school Spanish that I could follow the
story. It was definitely not bad.

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Paul Dormer <p...@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <m2d02f9...@kelutral.omcl.org>, spco...@omcl.org (Steve
> Coltrin) wrote:
>
>> No idea how the
>> English dub handled it - I won't watch dubs.
>
> Yes, I dislike dubbed films. The body language always looks wrong for
> what they are saying, no matter how good a translation it is.

Except for František Filipovský dubbing Louis de Funès - it was
excellent (ObSF: Le Gendarme et les Extra-terrestres), perhaps even
better than the original (and Czechoslovak audience forever associates
de Funès with the memorable voice of Filipovský).
I once watched a movie with de Funès dubbed into English - it was
awful.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> Other than the three
> lead actors, nobody spoke English and memorized their lines phonetically.
> The effect was a little bit creepy which was sometimes effective and sometimes
> not.

Reminds me of the movie Incubus (starring William Shatner) where the
lines are done phonetically, and memorized and pronounced rather sloppily (and
that's a _favourable_ expression). Quite unintelligible, in my opinion.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkg1tt$a18$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

<garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Other than the three
>> lead actors, nobody spoke English and memorized their lines phonetically.
>> The effect was a little bit creepy which was sometimes effective and sometimes
>> not.
>
>Reminds me of the movie Incubus (starring William Shatner) where the
>lines are done phonetically, and memorized and pronounced rather sloppily (and
>that's a _favourable_ expression). Quite unintelligible, in my opinion.
>

Hmmm. Shatner's Canadian by birth and definitely speaks English.
Was it the *other* cast members who were non-Anglophones? Or was
there a conlang that they all had, if not to learn, at least to
imitate?

/google

*Oh.* It was in *Esperanto.* Question answered.

Wikipedia says of it, "Esperanto speakers are generally
disappointed by the pronunciation of the language by the cast of
_Incubus_." I bet they are.

[Gary McGath]

On 9/23/20 10:04 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> Hollywood studios sometimes made Spanish-language versions of
> films they were also making in English. I used to have a pair of
> DVDs (I wonder if I still have them?) of _Dracula_, one with the
> original English-speaking cast* and one made on the same sets
> (at night) with a Spanish-speaking cast.
>
> _____
> *No, I don't know if Lugosi was actually *speaking* English at
> that stage or just memorizing the sounds.

Lugosi came to the USA in 1920, a decade before the movie was made, and
he had a lot of English-speaking stage appearances in the twenties, so
the odds are pretty good he had a fair grasp of English by the time the
movie was shot.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <qH4o1...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>

> Wikipedia says of it, "Esperanto speakers are generally
> disappointed by the pronunciation of the language by the cast of
> _Incubus_." I bet they are.

There used to be much comment about the pronunciation of German terms on
the show Grimm, including the word "wesen" which much featured.

[Paul Dormer]

In article <rkg1ki$5g9$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk () wrote:

> ObSF: Le Gendarme et les Extra-terrestres

I think I saw that late at night on UK television in the late eighties.
It was dubbed, I think, but I remember little about it.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> *Oh.* It was in *Esperanto.* Question answered.

"When we came to your planet, I taught myself all of your languages.
Well, except for Esperanto, of course. You could tell _that_ one was
going nowhere."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2mu1fu...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> *Oh.* It was in *Esperanto.* Question answered.
>
>"When we came to your planet, I taught myself all of your languages.
>Well, except for Esperanto, of course. You could tell _that_ one was
>going nowhere."

Heh. Is that from a story, or did you invent it on the spot?

Google Volapuk sometime, for a conlang even less successful than
Esperanto.

/begin terse spoiler

It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
wherever he could.

/end

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> In article <m2mu1fu...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>
>>"When we came to your planet, I taught myself all of your languages.
>>Well, except for Esperanto, of course. You could tell _that_ one was
>>going nowhere."
>
> Heh. Is that from a story, or did you invent it on the spot?

If only. It's from the animated series version of _The Tick_.

I trotted that out once and flushed an Esperantoid with a massive chip
on their shoulder out of the brush...

> Google Volapuk sometime, for a conlang even less successful than
> Esperanto.
>
> /begin terse spoiler
>
> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
> wherever he could.
>
> /end

Ithkuil has that beat. It doesn't use the entire IPA chart, but its
consonant vocabulary is sort of the bastard child of Navajo and
Sanskrit. It holds itself to a reasonable 13 vowels. And it's got more
affixes than a tattoo and piercing salon. If I came across a story that
used it for its Language of Magic - and if I noticed - I might actually
physically laugh.

(Did you notice that in LOTRO, the text on the tapestries in Rohan is in
futhorc, not certhas - and that the language is Old English? I'm not
learned enough to tell if it's Wessex or Mercian...)

[Peter Trei]

Mercian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohan_(Middle-earth)#Language

Pt

[Keith F. Lynch]

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>> *Oh.* It was in *Esperanto.* Question answered.

> "When we came to your planet, I taught myself all of your languages.
> Well, except for Esperanto, of course. You could tell _that_ one
> was going nowhere."

So he knows Lojban? Gua\spi? There are lots of conlangs, each more
obscure and little used than the previous.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> I know the context. Do you really think there are any major movies
>> about wrongful accusations that I haven't watched?

> There are sure to be some reading the group who hadn't seen the
> film, or read the book.

Good point.

>> But today, regardless of race, everyone would address everyone else
>> by their first name, and nobody would take offense at it.

"I'm not Mr. Lynch. That was my father. I'm Keith."

> Having just spent the last 10 years doing customer care by phone,
> and ~25 years before that in brick and mortar retail, perhaps I have
> different experiences and sensibilities. I have interacted with
> people who are fine with "hey, you!" all the way to folks who are
> very bristly when they are not addressed with honorifics they feel
> are their due.

Speaking for myself, all I care about on a tech support line is
getting a knowledgeable and helpful real person on the line without
waiting on hold until the heat death of the universe, or, far worse,
getting a useless AI, or rather AS, that wastes my time pretending to
be a real person.

[Gary McGath]

Yes, that was a constant source of amusement to me. I once saw a Grimm
episode dubbed in German, with the words correctly pronounced.

[Gary McGath]

On 9/24/20 1:26 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
> wherever he could.

A fan of heavy metal bands, perhaps?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkjchh$p0i$2...@dont-email.me>,

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 9/24/20 1:26 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
>> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
>> wherever he could.
>
>A fan of heavy metal bands, perhaps?
>

Invented 1889-90, so I don't think so.

And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2imc3u...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:

>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> In article <m2mu1fu...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>"When we came to your planet, I taught myself all of your languages.
>>>Well, except for Esperanto, of course. You could tell _that_ one was
>>>going nowhere."
>>
>> Heh. Is that from a story, or did you invent it on the spot?

>
>If only. It's from the animated series version of _The Tick_.
>
>I trotted that out once and flushed an Esperantoid with a massive chip
>on their shoulder out of the brush...
>
>> Google Volapuk sometime, for a conlang even less successful than
>> Esperanto.
>>
>> /begin terse spoiler
>>
>> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
>> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
>> wherever he could.
>>
>> /end
>
>Ithkuil has that beat. It doesn't use the entire IPA chart, but its
>consonant vocabulary is sort of the bastard child of Navajo and
>Sanskrit.

Holy smoke. Reminds me rather of a friend's .sig, which read
something on the order of "Hawai'ian/Welsh Exchange Service,
providing vowels and consonants to those who need them."

I used to know a guy (forty-odd years ago) who might have found
Ithkuil right up his alley. I asked him once, "Which was your
first language, English or Hungarian?" (Knowing that he was
fluent in both.

And he put on the most insufferably smug look I had ever seen,
and answered, "Navajo." Turned out his father had worked for the
BIA.

It holds itself to a reasonable 13 vowels. And it's got more
>affixes than a tattoo and piercing salon.

/snork

>If I came across a story that
>used it for its Language of Magic - and if I noticed - I might actually
>physically laugh.
>
>(Did you notice that in LOTRO, the text on the tapestries in Rohan is in
>futhorc, not certhas - and that the language is Old English? I'm not
>learned enough to tell if it's Wessex or Mercian...)

Oh, yes, I know futhorc when I see it. It *ought* to be Mercian,
but I don't know enough about it to recognize it if I saw it. My
knowledge of OE is almost entirely Wessex, with a little
Northumbrian thrown in here and there.

And fifty years old.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> My knowledge of OE is almost entirely Wessex, with a little
> Northumbrian thrown in here and there.

> And fifty years old.

Fortunately, Old English hasn't changed much over the past 50 years.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
>> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
>> wherever he could.

> A fan of heavy metal bands, perhaps?

Did you know there's a Wikipedia article on "rock dots"?

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 8:45:01 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <rkjchh$p0i$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> >On 9/24/20 1:26 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
> >> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
> >> wherever he could.
> >
> >A fan of heavy metal bands, perhaps?
> >
> Invented 1889-90, so I don't think so.
>
> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.
>
>

The musicians who play as "Samhain" pronounce
that "Sam-" and "-hain" (rhymes with "thane.")
Even a cowan should know its's "Sow-in," right?

Or, is it?

https://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/paganistan/the-holiday-that-dared-not-speak-its-name-or-samhain-the-correct-pronunciation.html

Local pols are spouting "no trick or treat on Halloween" because of the pandemic. I was charmed by the fellow who decorated a six-foot cardboard
packing tube and attached it to the railinfg of his front steps.

He can drop candy from the top of the steps into the tube.
The Snickers or KitKat can slide into Wonder Woman's or
Dracula's treat bag, six feet away. Easy peasy!

--
Kevin R

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 10:01:29 PM UTC-4, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
> >> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
> >> wherever he could.
>
> > A fan of heavy metal bands, perhaps?
>
> Did you know there's a Wikipedia article on "rock dots"?
> --

My Queens, NY-born Dad would have called them "Blue Erster Cult"*
had the name ever escaped his lips. That would be the "dots" changing
the vowel sound, no? :)

* Which formed at Stony Brook, a few miles from the property with
a summer bungalow that we built a year-round house on in the `70s.
Local boys make good!

ObSF, sorta...

[quote]

In Pearlman's poetry, the "Blue Oyster Cult" was a group of aliens who
had assembled secretly to guide Earth's history. "Initially, the band
was not happy with the name, but settled for it, and went to work
preparing to record their first release..."

[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_%C3%96yster_Cult

SFish songs: "Godzilla." "Don't Fear The Reaper" features in
Stephen King's "The Stand." "Black Blade," is a Michael
Moorcock co-write. MM is more associated with Hawkwind,
but they used no diacritical marks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moorcock#with_Blue_%C3%96yster_Cult

Eric Bloom and BOC lyrics show up in Rowling/Galbraith's
"Career of Evil."

https://www.wbur.org/artery/2015/12/15/blue-oyster-cult-

BOC also influenced comics written by David Anthony Kraft

http://gobacktothepast.com/retro-review-demon-hunter-1/

The first "rock dot" band is muy sfnal!

--
Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <56bf8b2a-6361-4b90...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 8:45:01 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <rkjchh$p0i$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> >On 9/24/20 1:26 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> It was based mostly on English vocabulary, but the guy who
>> >> invented it *just*loved* umlauted vowels, so he inserted them
>> >> wherever he could.
>> >
>> >A fan of heavy metal bands, perhaps?
>> >
>> Invented 1889-90, so I don't think so.
>>
>> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
>> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.
>>
>>
>
>The musicians who play as "Samhain" pronounce
>that "Sam-" and "-hain" (rhymes with "thane.")
>Even a cowan should know its's "Sow-in," right?
>
>Or, is it?

/shrug

My daughter the neopagan pronounces it Soween, IIRC.

>
>https://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/paganistan/the-holiday-that-dared-not-speak-its-name-or-samhain-the-correct-pronunciation.html
>
>Local pols are spouting "no trick or treat on Halloween" because of the
>pandemic. I was charmed by the fellow who decorated a six-foot
>cardboard
>packing tube and attached it to the railinfg of his front steps.

My daughter (who is approximately as crazy about Halloween as J.
K. Rowling) is planning to do the same thing, but with a 4" PVC
pipe. (For a smoother descent.)

The front of the house is accessed first by a flight of concrete
steps up to a landing, and then by a flight of wooden steps (that
turn on a right angle) leading up to a front porch. She plans to
have the pipe extend from the top railing of the porch to the
bottom of the wooden stair-rail. She also plans to put a sign
up a week or so before, letting people know that she will be doing
this.

>
>He can drop candy from the top of the steps into the tube.
>The Snickers or KitKat can slide into Wonder Woman's or
>Dracula's treat bag, six feet away. Easy peasy!

Exactly.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.

Spinal Tap is so metal they put the umlaut over the *n* (and don't dot
the i). Makes it a bear to type.

They don't pronounce it any differently than plain old English does.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> My knowledge of OE is almost entirely Wessex, with a little
> Northumbrian thrown in here and there.

Speaking of, if you're a podcast listening type person you'd probably
enjoy the History of English Podcast.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2d02a4...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> My knowledge of OE is almost entirely Wessex, with a little
>> Northumbrian thrown in here and there.
>
>Speaking of, if you're a podcast listening type person you'd probably
>enjoy the History of English Podcast.

Perhaps, but I don't do podcasts. I have a classical music
station running from 6:40 a.m,. to 10:00 pm. It also serves as
an alarm clock, running on a Raspberry Pi using crontab.

Nor sure if I would know how to turn a podcast on if I wanted to.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m2h7rm4...@kelutral.omcl.org>,

Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
>> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.
>
>Spinal Tap is so metal they put the umlaut over the *n* (and don't dot
>the i). Makes it a bear to type.
>
>They don't pronounce it any differently than plain old English does.
>

Figures.

My daughter's a fan of a German rock group whose name I forget.
(Their lead song is spelled alternately "Du Hast" and "Du Hasst,"
if that's any help. I betcha they pronounce their umlauts
properly.

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
> So he knows Lojban? Gua\spi? There are lots of conlangs, each more
> obscure and little used than the previous.

Although some of them are well known for their history, background story
or features (if not for the number of speakers). And from time to time,
a new conlang unexpectedly gains notoriety. Such was the case with toki
pona recently.

ObSF: In Andymon by Angela and Karlheinz Steinmüller, the inhabitants of
the "generation" spaceship came to the conclusion their language is
invented, given the regularities in grammar. Their origin still remain
unknown, though.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkk1p2$v8n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

<garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote:
>Keith F. Lynch <k...@keithlynch.net> wrote:
>> So he knows Lojban? Gua\spi? There are lots of conlangs, each more
>> obscure and little used than the previous.
>
>Although some of them are well known for their history, background story
>or features (if not for the number of speakers). And from time to time,
>a new conlang unexpectedly gains notoriety. Such was the case with toki
>pona recently.
>
>ObSF: In Andymon by Angela and Karlheinz Steinmüller, the inhabitants of
>the "generation" spaceship came to the conclusion their language is
>invented, given the regularities in grammar. Their origin still remain
>unknown, though.
>

And then there's Hellspark, in Janet Kagan's novel of that title.
It's an invented language used by a planetful of professional
linguists, design to contain all the sounds used by every other
language in a largish interstellar community. The name is
pronounced *alternately* Hell-spark and Hells-park, to keep them
flexible, and whenever somebody discovers a new phoneme, they
invent (or borrow?) several new words using that sound, so that
everyone will learn to pronounce it.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

> Nor sure if I would know how to turn a podcast on if I wanted to.

I will not say It's Easy because easy is not a portable term. If you
were so inclined, you could probably get your local talent to set up a
"click here to play, click here to pause, click here to rewind, if you
want more tell me and I'll download the next episode" arrangement.

[Andy Leighton]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 07:12:19 -0600, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
> begin fnord
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>> Nor sure if I would know how to turn a podcast on if I wanted to.
>
> I will not say It's Easy because easy is not a portable term. If you
> were so inclined, you could probably get your local talent to set up a
> "click here to play, click here to pause, click here to rewind, if you
> want more tell me and I'll download the next episode" arrangement.

Some are embedded on webpages - for example In Our Time*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/b006qykl and as a result are pretty
easy to play (no software to install, nothing to download).

However even when an audio/pod-cast player is used on the pc (or tablet
or phone) these tend to use the standard icons for play, pause, stop,
ff etc which were common on cassette-decks and VCRs (even before
computer UIs).

Handling the subscribe / download of podcasts is probably where it gets
a bit more tricky - but only a little.


* And I would be amazed if Dorothy couldn't find anything in the 902
episodes that she wanted to listen to.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams

[Torbjorn Lindgren]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

>In article <m2h7rm4...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
>>> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.
>>
>>Spinal Tap is so metal they put the umlaut over the *n* (and don't dot
>>the i). Makes it a bear to type.
>>
>>They don't pronounce it any differently than plain old English does.
>

>My daughter's a fan of a German rock group whose name I forget.
>(Their lead song is spelled alternately "Du Hast" and "Du Hasst,"
>if that's any help. I betcha they pronounce their umlauts
>properly.

Rammstein. I've never seen it spelled any other way than "Du Hast"
though it IS a deliberate word-play on those two words that is
pronounced (or nearly? my German is rusty) the same [1].

Ironically it's one of the very few songs (3?) where they've at some
point have done a full English version in addition to the German
original version, it had to be reworked quite extensively because the
word-play didn't work in English.

I'd classify them as "Industrial Metal" but that's a subgroup of Rock
so can't argue with that (or "pyromaniacs" for their scene shows, they
absolutely love pyrotechnics and flames).

And I suspect you're right, I can't think of any cases of "Metal
Umlauts" with Rammstein, if there are umlauts or diacritics it's
because that's the correct spelling for that word.

I think that "Metal Umlauts" (which includes other diacritic's too)
was never especially common and even then it was mostly US or English
bands that did it, except ironically or as a one-off thing. But it's
true that there is some large bands which does use metal umlauts.

To qualify as Metal Umlauts I'd claim that the diacrit(s) has to not
make sense in any (non-constructed) language :-)


Arguably Häagen-Dazs is a non-music case of Metal Umlauts! :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_hast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammstein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_umlaut

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkl8vj$6ar$1...@dont-email.me>,

Torbjorn Lindgren <t...@none.invalid> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <m2h7rm4...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>>Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>>> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
>>>> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.
>>>
>>>Spinal Tap is so metal they put the umlaut over the *n* (and don't dot
>>>the i). Makes it a bear to type.
>>>
>>>They don't pronounce it any differently than plain old English does.
>>
>>My daughter's a fan of a German rock group whose name I forget.
>>(Their lead song is spelled alternately "Du Hast" and "Du Hasst,"
>>if that's any help. I betcha they pronounce their umlauts
>>properly.
>
>Rammstein.

Right.

>I've never seen it spelled any other way than "Du Hast"
>though it IS a deliberate word-play on those two words that is
>pronounced (or nearly? my German is rusty) the same [1].

Right again.

>
>Ironically it's one of the very few songs (3?) where they've at some
>point have done a full English version in addition to the German
>original version, it had to be reworked quite extensively because the
>word-play didn't work in English.
>
>
>

>Arguably Häagen-Dazs is a non-music case of Metal Umlauts! :-)

Evidently.

/Wikipedia

"Reuben Mattus invented the phrase "Häagen-Dazs" in a quest
for a brand name that he claimed was Danish-sounding; however the
company's pronunciation of the name ignores the letters "ä"
and "z"; letters like "ä" or digraphs like "zs" do not exist
in Danish, but the similar words "hagen" and "das(s)" that also
correspond to the company's pronunciation of its name mean "the
chin" and "outhouse/toilet", respectively, in Scandinavian
languages, with "das(s)" being "the" or "that" in German.[5][note
1] According to Mattus, it was a tribute to Denmark's exemplary
treatment of its Jews during the Second World War,[10] and
included an outline map of Denmark on early labels. Mattus felt
that Denmark was also known for its dairy products and had a
positive image in the United States.[11] His daughter Doris
Hurley reported in the 1999 PBS documentary An Ice Cream Show
that her father sat at the kitchen table for hours saying
nonsensical words until he came up with a combination he liked.
The reason he chose this method was so that the name would be
unique and original."

[Gary McGath]

On 9/25/20 1:21 PM, Torbjorn Lindgren wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <m2h7rm4...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>>> And besides, he would've *pronounced* all the umlauts, which I
>>>> don't think the heavy metallics do. Or could.
>>>
>>> Spinal Tap is so metal they put the umlaut over the *n* (and don't dot
>>> the i). Makes it a bear to type.

A dotless i exists in some languages and in Unicode. While there could
be a language that has an n with two dots over it, I don't know of one.

>>> They don't pronounce it any differently than plain old English does.
>>
>> My daughter's a fan of a German rock group whose name I forget.
>> (Their lead song is spelled alternately "Du Hast" and "Du Hasst,"
>> if that's any help. I betcha they pronounce their umlauts
>> properly.
>
> Rammstein. I've never seen it spelled any other way than "Du Hast"
> though it IS a deliberate word-play on those two words that is
> pronounced (or nearly? my German is rusty) the same [1].

I've never heard any difference in pronunciation, though a German might
say "du hassssst" to make it clear the meaning is "you hate" and not
"you have."

Likewise, "ist" means "is" and "isst" means "eats." Hence Feuerbach's
saying, "Der Mensch ist, was er isst" (the person is what he eats).

>
>
> Arguably Häagen-Dazs is a non-music case of Metal Umlauts! :-)

It's not German. According to Wikipedia, it's a nonsense name, so it's
akin to Metal Umlauts.

[Gary McGath]

On 9/25/20 8:09 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> And then there's Hellspark, in Janet Kagan's novel of that title.
> It's an invented language used by a planetful of professional
> linguists, design to contain all the sounds used by every other
> language in a largish interstellar community. The name is
> pronounced *alternately* Hell-spark and Hells-park, to keep them
> flexible, and whenever somebody discovers a new phoneme, they
> invent (or borrow?) several new words using that sound, so that
> everyone will learn to pronounce it.

I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written form
consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one: ancient
Egyptian.

[Torbjorn Lindgren]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 9/25/20 1:21 PM, Torbjorn Lindgren wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> In article <m2h7rm4...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
>>> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>>> Spinal Tap is so metal they put the umlaut over the *n* (and don't dot
>>>> the i). Makes it a bear to type.
>
>A dotless i exists in some languages and in Unicode. While there could
>be a language that has an n with two dots over it, I don't know of one.

Wikipedia lists 7 languages where n-diaeresis is used[1], all but one
is very small but Malagasy is listed as 25M native speakers (basically
everyone on Madagascar). Smaller than dotless-i but not negligible.

I see from the Metal Umlauts Wikipedia article that a few band has
used three dots above, now THAT I suspect don't exists in any
languages. It's of course trivial to represent in Unicode - Unicode
has 500+ "combining characters" including "Tripple Dot Above" (many of
them are far more exotic than that) and you can apply one or MORE of
them to ANY of the 140k+ base characters...

>> Arguably Häagen-Dazs is a non-music case of Metal Umlauts! :-)
>
>It's not German. According to Wikipedia, it's a nonsense name, so it's
>akin to Metal Umlauts.

Yeah, akin is a better word for it. Some will of course argue it can't
be applied outside metal or outside music and Akin sidesteps that.

Note that it's not just that it's anonsense name, it also hit my
second criteria, inappropriate use of diacrits.

The official word is that it's intended to be Danish-sounding and
Danish doesn't HAVE that character, they have æ instead...

Now, admittedly you could argue that the Danish æ/ae is "basically the
same character" as the Swedish ä since that evolved from that
character and back in the days of 7-bit character set these two even
occupied the same ascii code (in Sweden and Denmark respectively) so
which one you got depended on locale.

Still, Häagen-Dazs sell significant amounts in Denmark and many other
countries where normal consumers would be expected to recognize that
it's complete nonsense (like Sweden, Norway, Germany) so it's
apparently not TOO harmful for them.


1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-diaeresis

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rkppif$iq3$2...@dont-email.me>,

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>On 9/25/20 8:09 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> And then there's Hellspark, in Janet Kagan's novel of that title.
>> It's an invented language used by a planetful of professional
>> linguists, design to contain all the sounds used by every other
>> language in a largish interstellar community. The name is
>> pronounced *alternately* Hell-spark and Hells-park, to keep them
>> flexible, and whenever somebody discovers a new phoneme, they
>> invent (or borrow?) several new words using that sound, so that
>> everyone will learn to pronounce it.
>
>I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written form
>consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one: ancient
>Egyptian.
>

Well, yes, except that *some* of the signs represent consonants,
not entire words. There was also a convention (I found this out
just recently) whereby if the scribe put a vertical line before a
hieroglyph, it represented the name of the thing pictured, not
the sound it ordinarily stood for.

[Tim Merrigan]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 06:29:35 -0400, Gary McGath
<ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

>On 9/25/20 8:09 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> And then there's Hellspark, in Janet Kagan's novel of that title.
>> It's an invented language used by a planetful of professional
>> linguists, design to contain all the sounds used by every other
>> language in a largish interstellar community. The name is
>> pronounced *alternately* Hell-spark and Hells-park, to keep them
>> flexible, and whenever somebody discovers a new phoneme, they
>> invent (or borrow?) several new words using that sound, so that
>> everyone will learn to pronounce it.
>
>I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written form
>consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one: ancient
>Egyptian.

That might be possible. There are apparently about 1000 hieroglyphs
and there are, as of July 2020, 3,304 emojis.

Are any emojis used as determinatives? That is to indicate whether
the adjacent character represents the image depicted or the sound
indicated by the image.

OTOH I don't think I've heard of anything in hieroglyphics similar to
using an eggplant to represent a penis.
--

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Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

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[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <lak1nf9p3q0jai146...@4ax.com>,

Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 06:29:35 -0400, Gary McGath
><ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>
>>On 9/25/20 8:09 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> And then there's Hellspark, in Janet Kagan's novel of that title.
>>> It's an invented language used by a planetful of professional
>>> linguists, design to contain all the sounds used by every other
>>> language in a largish interstellar community. The name is
>>> pronounced *alternately* Hell-spark and Hells-park, to keep them
>>> flexible, and whenever somebody discovers a new phoneme, they
>>> invent (or borrow?) several new words using that sound, so that
>>> everyone will learn to pronounce it.
>>
>>I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written form
>>consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one: ancient
>>Egyptian.
>
>That might be possible. There are apparently about 1000 hieroglyphs
>and there are, as of July 2020, 3,304 emojis.
>
>Are any emojis used as determinatives? That is to indicate whether
>the adjacent character represents the image depicted or the sound
>indicated by the image.
>
>OTOH I don't think I've heard of anything in hieroglyphics similar to
>using an eggplant to represent a penis.

No; when the Egyptian scribes wanted to represent a penis, they
drew a penis. I've seen the glyph for filariasis, which is an
invasion of the lymphatic system by itty bitty nematodes, which
clog up its circulation and, in many cases, cause the lower legs
to swell up; hence the common name "elephantiasis." But it also
sometimes attacks the genitals ... and the hieroglyph for the
disease represents a penis dripping blood.

Should you ever visit Egypt, *DON'T* go swimming in the Nile.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
> I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written
> form consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one:
> ancient Egyptian.

This parody of the Egyptian national anthem points that out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfEEuwCxVnY

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <qHC4x...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

Oh! But I misinterpreted what you were asking about.

Take the hierglyph "ankh." It looks like a cross with a loop on
top, and it's the word for "life", known to hippies an neopagans
worldwide.

But "ankh" also means "sandal strap"; they are homonyms. And
that's what the glyph represents: a sandal strap. Take a look at
it sometime.

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Gary McGath <ga...@removemcgathremove.com> wrote:
> I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written form
> consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one: ancient
> Egyptian.

No, you are mistaking it for the Maya script.

[Gary McGath]

On 9/27/20 5:27 PM, Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:
>> I was going to ask if anyone has devised a language whose written
>> form consists entirely of emoji and then remembered there is one:
>> ancient Egyptian.
>
> This parody of the Egyptian national anthem points that out:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfEEuwCxVnY
>

Can't get it to play. This has been happening to me fairly often since I
downgraded my Mac to Catalina. It's reported as a YouTube error, but I
suspect it's something on my side.

[Peter Trei]

Its a very mild joke, you're not missing much.

pt

[Keith F. Lynch]

Gary McGath <ga...@REMOVEmcgathREMOVE.com> wrote:

> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> This parody of the Egyptian national anthem points that out:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfEEuwCxVnY

> Can't get it to play. This has been happening to me fairly often
> since I downgraded my Mac to Catalina. It's reported as a YouTube
> error, but I suspect it's something on my side.

Can't you use your Linux laptop?