Joe Appaloosa geometry

[Matt R]

Hello all,

Just wondering if anyone has insider knowledge about the Joe Appaloosa geometry? The last Riv email described it as a cross between a Hunq and Atlantis, which sounds like my dream bike, but the recent Web Special proto-Appaloosas appeared to be geometrically identical to Sam H, the only obvious differences being larger tire clearances and canti posts. If it's truly somewhere between Hunq and Atlantis, I'm gonna start saving my pennies now. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, sounds like it will be a wonderful bike!

Cheers,

Matt in Tucson

[James Warren]

"cross between Atlantis and Hunqapillar,"

I find myself wondering if that was a typo. Because every other report on this coming bike has said it's a Hillborne with greater clearances, thereby bringing it in the Atlantis's direction.

So where they wrote, "cross between Atlantis and Hunqapillar," I wonder if they meant to write "cross between Atlantis and Hillborne," and someone just mixed up the H-names. It's something I would do when I'm super-busy.

-Jim W.

But I do like that it continues the Rivendell tradition of splitting the difference between pre-existing models. The Hillborne is already a third derivative in that regard (where road versus mountain is your starting point.)

Road versus Mountain:           Let's go in between these norms:      Result: Atlantis

Let's go between Atlantis and Road:                                            Result: A. Homer Hilsen

Let's go between Atlantis and A. Homer Hilsen:                          Result: Hillborne

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[Bill Lindsay]

I don't get it why you don't get it.  

Step 0:  Start with an Atlantis
Step 1:  The top tube slope doesn't look like a Hunqapillar.  Make it more like a Hunqapillar with a sloping Top Tube

Step 2:  The tire clearances don't look like a Hunqapillar.  Make it more like a Hunqapillar with wider tire clearances

Step 3:  Call it a "cross between Atlantis and Hunqapillar,"

What's not to get?  

It's true if you insist on wanting it to be based on a Hillborne you could go:

Step 0:  Start with a Hillborne

Step 1:  Ditch the sidepull brakes and replace them with cantilevers

Step 2:  Increase the Clearances

Step 3:  Call it a "Hillborne with greater clearances"

Either way, it's the same bike.  Neither description is misleading.  

[James Warren]

Because I thought that previous descriptions said the clearance would be between current SH and current Atlantis, not greater than Atlantis. That would put it, clearance-wise, in a different category than the result of the first Step 0 through Step 3 scenario that you wrote.

I searched old Blug posts to see what made me think it will lie between SH clearance and Atlantis clearance, but I couldn't find it in writing.

Sent from my iPhone

[Chris Lampe 2]

I missed this bike/frame.  Anyone have a photo?

[drew]

Yeah, at riv hq it was described as "like the hillborne but with more clearances". Could've changed since then, I guess, but the holding off on hillbornes and introducing the Appaloosa makes me think it's meant to fit in between sams and antlanti

[Garth]

     The frame you mention is but "pie in the sky" as of today .   No one can know a geometry for a bike that does not exist ! 

[Mark Etze]

If they plan on producing it sometime next year Riv must have their geometry charts finished by now. I hope they decide to make it in a larger stock size than do with any of their other large tired bikes.

[Braxton Colagross]

Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with greater clearances" is "Hillborne with longer chainstays." Those two sum up Joe A. for me. 

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 8:50:39 AM UTC-6, Braxton Colagross wrote:

Yes, the thing everyone seems to be missing outside "Hillborne with greater clearances" is "Hillborne with longer chainstays."

That's what I had expected too, but those protovelos they sold in the Web Specials didn't look particularly long, at least to the naked eye.  Hopefully someone saved an image and can share it. 

[Joe Bernard]

The problem here is the concept for this bike has bounced around a lot since the original Mystery Bikes were produced, and I'm not convinced the Protovelos were much more than design exercises. The only thing they nailed down was a head badge.

[Garth]

  Exactly !   Proto means prototype , which explains itself .  Riv selling a proto-type frame means nothing as to whether or not that particular frame is what is to come .

[Jim Bronson]

+1

The Appaloosa head badge is fantastic!

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[James Warren]

You can see those Protovelos still pictured by navigating back in time on the Blug. What I couldn't find anymore are the descriptions that went with those photos. The descriptions went away after those Protovelos sold, I'm guessing.

-----Original Message-----
From: iamkeith
Sent: Oct 13, 2015 8:28 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch

[EGNolan]

One li'l thing that may also prove to be more Hunq/Atlantis than Atlantis/Hillborne is wheel size. Looks like the small J. Appaloosa had 26" wheels. Going 26" for small sizes would veer in the direction of Hunq/Atlantis & make it even more of a touring bike in the traditional sense than the 650b wheels on the smaller Hillbornes . I'm looking forward to a bike w/ more clearance & longer stays than the HIllborne that is equally affordable. I prefer canti's or V brakes over sidepulls & I think the App will be a winner on these accounts and probably many more that I don't know about yet. As always, just my  $.02...

Best,

Eric

[iamkeith]

Man, it's been driving me nuts for quite a while, trying to remember where I'd first heard that the new appaloosa was going to have long chainstays.  But I finally figured it out:  It's in a post by Grant,  in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rbw-owners-bunch/urGzPAzOsj4/LfDsmtn9ccYJ

Another thought I had before locating this:  The Hillbourne used to have cantilever brakes, like the Hunquapillar.  The Hunquapillar used to have parallel, double top tubes like the Hillbourne, and less tire clearance.   But both models have longer and more sloped top tubes than the Atlantis.   If they just increased the clearance of the Hillbourne, without also lengthening the chainstays, wouldn't it essentially just be a Hunquapillar?

[BenG]

I ride one of those Mystery Bike protovelos on 50mm Big Bens. Grant once wrote that it was especially designed for flat-landish commuting. That's my modus operandi, and we get along quite well. He wrote extensively in the Blug on what he was up to while designing his own prototype long bike, the first one. I also enjoy a 60cm dtt Hillborne on 38mm little Bens. The prospect of a Hillborne on fatties sounds about perfect to me.

[Philip Kim]

Looks like Geo was released on the riv tumblr

[drew]

cool.  looks like a fun bike, and a good deal.  not sure how i feel about the new bars yet.  if i didnt have a sam and a bunch of parts lying around, i'd be all over this. 

[BSWP]

The new J-A looks great, so many nice details all worked out. I had been leaning to a custom, for touring, but finances have been tight, and so that project is delayed. Does anyone know if the Joe will be offered eventually as just frame & fork?

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

That bike is SIIIIICK!

[James Warren]

GREAT gearing

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Lindsay
Sent: Oct 28, 2015 4:51 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch

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[Joe Bernard]

I love the bars. Very cool looking, and in that "reach straight back at you" shape which seems to be the only one I can ride more than 5 miles. The fork crown is pretty sweet, too. I love the bike..we'll see about the color. I'm not a big fan of Sam Blue, but the Clem Blue is awesome. I'm in no position to fork over 2100 bucks right now, so I won't be one of the early-adopter trusting people; I look forward to seeing them next year.

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:47:46 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

[Wayne Naha]

I love this bike!  

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

 

[Jack B]

Wondering if the 62cm will be a single- or double-top-tube.

Anyone know?

[James Warren]

If I were betting, I'd bet double. Tougher call is parallel versus diagonal. I'm gonna guess parallel double.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 28, 2015, at 5:20 PM, Jack B <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wondering if the 62cm will be a single- or double-top-tube.

Anyone know?

[David Banzer]

58cm & 62cm are double top-tube.
I'm glad I went with the Clem frameset - complete bikes just don't appeal to me as I usually have enough parts to build up a couple frames. If this were offered as a frameset only in the future, I'd definitely be interested.
David
Chicago

[Mark in Beacon]

I really like the proto silver color with the cream, understated classy but not boring. With the JA, sounds like maybe, possibly, they are thinking of finally retiring the flagship...slowly, gently

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 7:56:40 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Tim Wood]

Any Clem buyers regretting their decision? I'm waiting for my 59 Clem but the 58 Joe seems appealing. A lot of the same positive features (long chain stays, tire clearance, high bars, load carrying capacity), but it seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer. I feel like the Clem geometries prevent it from being a go fast or drop bar bike, but that being said I haven't even ridden it yet. The joe is obviously in a different price bracket and I don't see the purpose of owning both one day due to their similarities. I'm just going to love my Clem and have fun riding it, that hasn't changed.

[dougP]

"With the JA, sounds like maybe, possibly, they are thinking of finally retiring the flagship...slowly, gently"

Certainly lots of mention of the differences between Joe & Atlantis....longer stays, more tire clearance, etc.  The Atlantis has been around since 1999.75.  Maybe with the design philosophy leaning toward longer stays, this seems to be the direction of the future.  The real capper is getting a complete bike for less than the price of a frame & fork.  Hard to argue with that. 

dougP, happily growing old with a 12 year old Atlantis. 

[Wayne Naha]

No regrets here.  But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have a Joe alongside my Clem.  It just that when my wife and I were discussing my Clem purchase she asked, "Is this the last bike you are going to buy during our marriage?"  It's a little soon to try and weasel out of that one.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/29/2015 12:07 AM, Wayne Naha wrote:

No regrets here.  But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have a Joe alongside my Clem.  It just that when my wife and I were discussing my Clem purchase she asked, "Is this the last bike you are going to buy during our marriage?"  It's a little soon to try and weasel out of that one.

There's only one thing to say, and Nancy Reagan said it a long time ago:  "Just say no."

[Jeffrey Marco]

Really liking the look of this bike, It's got me considering selling my Atlantis, but I certainly don't want the stock build. I would likely transfer all the parts from my Atlantis to a Japaloosa. The bar looks like it would be stiff and comfortable but it's ugly as hell...

Hmmm... decisions, decisions

 "but it seems the joe could be set up as a drop bar fast tourer."

did you notice the length of the top tube? this frame has upright, swept back bars written all over it. my 2 cents.

[Wayne Naha]

It not my fault!  Riv is making too many great bikes.  It is an exciting time to be part of everything going on.

[Philip Kim]

Agreed, I'll have to wait to see if they are just selling framesets. I'm also not too big a fan of the Hillborne blue color. The $400 off is very tempting though...

[Mark Etze]

I am so disappointed  in their sizing. Once again they left out the over 97cm crowd. I thought the Appaloosa was originally supposed to be for larger riders.

[Kainalu]

Right? Although it's been said over the phone that something specifically tailored to the 100 club was in the works in the coming year. It might be secret, I'm sure information will be released in a need to know basis. No norms.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

[Ginz]

I think the complete bike is a great deal.  The only parts I can't live with are the brakes, but that's an easy swap. I'd have to try that handlebar, too. Not sure about that.

The wheelsets are the achilles heel of complete bike builds but these have the Silver hubs, both 36h.  That's a great thing.

[Mark Etze]

I thought this was going to be that bike. Would they do two new bikes in one year?

[Lynne Cooney]

For me a dynamo hub is non negotiable, so that rules out most complete bikes.

[Jeremy Till]

Me too.  I had the Bosco Bullmoose on my QB but took them off...just too much rise for the already tall front end, and had discovered that (standard) boscos worked better with my Trucker anyways.  Since then I've tried a number of bar configurations on the QB but nothing really gelled.  This thing looks awesome...everything I loved about the Bosco Bullmoose but in lower rise.  As long as the width is sufficient (at least 58cm, please!), I'll be the first in line for the new bar after-market.  

[Abcyclehank]

If a "Giant" Joe Appaloosa came out for 97+PBH I would be an early adopter for sure. That price point is a screaming deal even leaving wiggle room for personal preferences like brakes, dyno, or cockpit.

Blue would not be my first choice but never a deal breaker from my perspective. RWH is like 19 for 21 with color choices in single color models in my opinion.

Ryan
Spring Lake, MI

[iamkeith]

This is my dream handlebar too!!  Basically a similar function to a moustache bar, but with the primary hand position (the one with access to the brake levers) being the closer, more upright one.  That's where I need the brakes, because that's where my hands are when I'm riding slow or in town or in stop-and-go situations.  The lower/aero/tuck position doesn't need brakes nearly as often, the way I use it - on the open road.

I tried a Civia Aldrich bar which was "sort" of similar and came in different widths and different splay angles, but all were too narrow and too small in the grip area:

http://www.cambriabike.com/Civia-Aldrich-Cruiser-MultiPosition-Handlebars-ALDRICHBAR70DEGSIL.asp

Nitto makes a similar shape too, but they're even narrower:

https://www.benscycle.com/p-1277-nitto-promenade-b601-aluminum-handlebars.aspx

The problem is that widening any bar with this shape, or making the grips longer, just adds leverage and makes it easier to inadvertently rotate it in the stem clamp.  ( I have had that problem with my non-bullmoose bosco, even with a good quality stem.) These new bars, with the bull-moose stem, seem to solve both problems.  Nice amount of rise, too!  I prefer to get low by stretching out further - not by contorting my back and reaching down to the bars.

I too hope these are available aftermarket/individually, and SOON!

[Braxton Colagross]

They might credit you to have Rich build a set. And even if not, the $400 off will cover one of their in-stock Velocity-built SP dyno wheels.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Pics of the Appaloosa on the Blug are terrific. I'm looking forward to the pics of the new fork crown built up. (BTW-- looks like the "fix" to the fork crown was to eliminate the windows facing the midline. see http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/123735570644/more-on-the-crown-in-the-post-below-this-ungrant)

Question:

What are group members' thoughts on how Appaloosa compares to Cheviot, the first mainstream available long-chainstay Riv? 

Having a Hunqapillar and AHH in the stable, it seems like Appaloosa might be too much overlap. The Cheviot is distinctly different as a mixte, and bonus has the long stays. But the presale price, fork crown, head badge, choco-moose bars... that's a tough bike to love (or was that another bike?) :)

Thanks for your opinions,

shoji

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Marco wrote:

[James Warren]

These are exactly my questions as well. I'm pretty set on what I have. Hunq (Bosco with 14 cm Ritchey stem, big dirt tires), Hillborne (classic Albatross, Barlow Pass fasties), and Atlantis (classic Albatross, 50 mm tires and fenders) trade off almost all of the duties on my favorite riding. (The drop bar bikes are seeing less time as well as the dedicated mountain bike.) I don't see the Appaloosa adding much beyond what these three amazing bikes already offer, but I am curious enough to comment about the longer chainstays:

While I've had many extended periods of fun on the Atlantis in touring mode with drop bars and its 45.5 cm chainstays, I don't think I would consider putting drop bars on a bike with 53.5 mm chainstays like the Joe Appaloosa. I buy the argument that the super long chainstay design is best suited to bikes with upright bars like the Bosco and Albatross, because these bars shift the center of mass (of the rider/bike system) rearward. This makes me think of it as a bike that is different from the Atlantis and Hillborne in a fairly substantial way. I'd go back to drop bars on those, but not on a Joe Appaloosa. (The numbers above refer to my Atantis, which was made before they lengthened the chainstays a couple years ago. They used to be 45.5 cm in my size, and now they are 47 cm.)

Superficial Sidenote: I love the Hillborne blue, but I pictured the Joe Appaloosa as a dark red frame. For some reason, that's the color it's supposed to be in my mind. I don't know why.

-Jim W.

[Bill Lindsay]

I think Shoji's Hunqapillar and the Joe Appaloosa have a lot of overlap.  The Appaloosa would be awesome for me because I sold my Bombadil to finance a Mountain Bike, and because I don't own a Hunqapillar.  

Comparing the Cheviut to the Appaloosa, I slightly prefer cantilever/V-brakes for huge tires.  

Comparing my 58 Atlantis to the Appaloosa, one of the only tiny gripes I have with my Atlantis is TCO (toe-clip-overlap).  Grant never used to use "front center" measurements in his geo-charts, but with swept back bars and long stays, you can stretch the top tube way out and get a longer front center, and eliminate TCO.  Some will then hate that they can't run drop bars on these bikes, because the top tube is too long.  I'm going to measure the front center on my Atlantis, and compare it to the 627.4mm of a 58 Appaloosa.  No TCO would be a draw.  Low-trail bikes eliminate TCO with 650B wheels and/or a ton of fork rake.  

[iamkeith]

Comparing it to the Hunqapillar and Atlantis,  the most interesting thing about the Appaloosa geometry to me is that it appears to be intended for use with a smaller maximum tire size.  Perhaps this suggests that it is slated to be even more of a touring-specific bike, than the jack-of-many trades bike that the other two are?  The Hunqapillar says 60mm (2.4") max, while the Atlantis and Appaloosa both say 55mm (2") max.  We know, of course that people successfully run 2.5" even on the Atlantis - but it shares the same, huge, 80mm bottom bracket drop that the Hunqapillar has (or vice versa).    The drop on the Appaloosa, on the other hand, is 2 to 3 mm less, so it sits  higher. 

So even if you could squeeze a bigger-than-rated tire in there, it's going to raise the center of gravity and the top tube as well.  As a mountain bike, this might actually be better, but the sizing would effectively run a little larger.  As a touring bike, a higher center of gravity would seem to reduce stability - but maybe the longer chainstays compensate?   Or maybe 3mm is not enough to be noticeable, and my thinking is exactly opposite of correct, and it would be even MORE of a jack-of-all-trades.

Either way, it seems to be a bit of a departure from existing Rivendell philosophy, where even the recent Clem has the same drop as the Atlantis and Hunqapillar.  Tire size listed is kind of curious too, given the fact that  most of us tend to try to squeeze in the biggest tire we can fit, and that fatter tires are becoming available regularly.   I would have expected the beautiful new crown to take an even wider tire.

[James Warren]

The drop being 77 mm as opposed to  80 mm is puzzling to me.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 29, 2015, at 5:24 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Comparing it to the Hunqapillar and Atlantis,  the most interesting thing about the Appaloosa geometry to me is that it appears to be intended for use with a smaller maximum tire size.  Perhaps this suggests that it is slated to be even more of a touring-specific bike, than the jack-of-many trades bike that the other two are?  The Hunqapillar says 60mm (2.4") max, while the Atlantis and Appaloosa both say 55mm (2") max.  We know, of course that people successfully run 2.5" even on the Atlantis - but it shares the same, huge, 80mm bottom bracket drop that the Hunqapillar has (or vice versa).    The drop on the Appaloosa, on the other hand, is 2 to 3 cm less, so it sits  higher. 

So even if you could squeeze a bigger-than-rated tire in there, it's going to raise the center of gravity and the top tube as well.  As a mountain bike, this might actually be better, but the sizing would effectively run a little larger.  As a touring bike, a taller tire would seem to reduce stability - but maybe the longer chainstays compensate? 

Either way, it seems to be a bit of a departure from existing Rivendell philosophy, where even the recent Clem has the same drop as the Atlantis and Hunqapillar.  Kind of curious too, given the fact that  most of us tend to try to squeeze in the biggest tire we can fit, and that fatter tires are becoming available regularly.

[Zach Duval]

Ooh, can a Hunqa fit a 2.5" tire?

[El Sapo]

Yea, I'd really like to have that Joe. It's a great looking bike and I really like those handlebars. It's also a great price.

I don't think it's the Clem owners who should have any regrets, it's the Bomba and Hunq owners. That Joe is about half their price? This Joe could have an impact on the Riv resale market. I was convinced a Clem was better than my 80's mountain bikes, (IT"S WAY BETTER), now couldn't a brand new Joe be better than a used Hunq, or Bomba? 

[Garth]

   As a Bomba owner of an early version I appreciate it even more with each succesive model !   It's great not needing another frame .

[Chris Lampe 2]

I've never owned a Riv but as a potential future buyer, I strongly prefer the Atlantis/Bombadil/Hunqapillar line of bikes over the Clem and Appaloosa.  I have reservations about the super long chainstays but mostly my reservations revolve around the move to designing bikes for bars with huge rise and sweep-back.  I like traditional MTB bars with 9-10 degrees of backsweep and up to about 40mm of rise and I like more of my weight planted on the front wheel.  I don't know if the new models would work well for me in this area.  

I just wish RBW would make a less expensive version of those bikes offered as a frameset rather than the direction they are currently going. 

[Zed Martinez]

Chris, last year on the Blug there was a prototype of this that as near as I can tell here plotting it out in Illustrator had the same proportions as the final 62cm Appaloosa, and they actually built it up with an old-school bullmoose and not the bosco-sweepy ones: http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/79299784498/long-strong-new-blue-lotsa-lugs-62cms-122 I'll let you know after I try it on the Clem next week with an albastache, but as near as I can tell from the geometry and from another bike I have with a 60mm real top tube (a Simcoe roadster), there's no reason these new frames couldn't be built up with "flat" bars for a more mountain-bikey posture if you don't mind a little leaning (I prefer it to bolt upright). The only thing they require is that the handlebars have to be high (but the long reach means despite being high you don't lose the leaning you would have with lower closer bars on a traditional frame), and at least on the Clems but maybe less on the Appaloosas with their shorter by a smidge top tubes an implied non-use of drops. Still, I think with the long top tubes and high bars they look perfectly suited to lesser sweep upright and flat bars too, personally. I'll report back on if that blows up on me with the Clem, since these Appaloosas seem to have been the inspiration for the Clem geometries.

[Kurt Manley]

That's my bike and it works great with regular bullmoose bars!

[Zed Martinez]

Sweet! Glad to hear it Kurt, and nice seeing it again. I just keep remembering that bike whenever the Appaloosa/Clem talk turns to how they need to have sweepy bars ;) I just keep thinking how much I'd rather have that setup with the more mountainy posture.

[Philip Kim]

such a sweet bike!

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:57:32 AM UTC-4, Kurt Manley wrote:

[Chris Lampe 2]

Now that, I do like!!!   I have to say that Bullmoose handlebars are sort of an end goal for me on my dream bike.  Is that a 26", 650B or 700c bike?

[drew]

im still not sure what exactly makes this more like a hunq/atlantis/bombadil than a sam hillborne. from my novice reading and riv's 2011 chart, the geometry is almost the same as a sam (excluding longer stays), the prototype looks like a sam and it's replacing the sam in the lineup for now. i understand it has canti mounts, but sams have had those too. 

when i first heard about it, i was excited about the idea of sam with more off road tendencies. i thought it filled a gap in the lineup and would appeal to people who wanted something for rougher stuff who would be put off by the extreme stoutness of atlanti/hunq/bombadil (and now clem), and would appreciate a slightly lighter version.  at the pricepoint, it seems like it could compete with the somas and salsas and all those brands. 

i guess im just confused as to why they would market it as a cheaper atlantis. it seems like that will only diminish atlantis sales and not add anything new to the lineup that isnt covered by a few other bikes already. 

still, i think it is an awesome bike. 

[El Sapo]

I'm a bullmoose handlebar lover. But after riding this bosco bullmoose, I think it's better (for me). Ive moved on from drop bars. This Bosco is going to make me move on from mountain bike bars. Keep in mind that your hand position can move from the grips (way back) to a point where they are right at the head tube. That's plenty of posture change for me. I think people are going to love the bosco.

[Bill Lindsay]

"i guess im just confused as to why they would market it as a cheaper atlantis."

I disagree that they are  "marketing it as a cheaper atlantis".  They sometimes attempt to give us context about what kind of riding it is intended with relative statements like it fits in between the Atlantis and Hunqapillar.  They sometimes describe bikes relative to other bikes with similar designs, like "it's like a Hillborne with longer chainstays and cantilever brakes.  I wouldn't call any of that marketing.  They are trying to explain what it is to people who might look at it and say "what the heck is that?"  For those of us who don't need the relative comparisons to other models, we can ignore them.  The Joe Appaloosa is just a kickass bike, which is good enough for me.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Philip Kim]

I thought about this too, but maybe it has to do with tubing? They created a new fork crown, which seems to be made for rougher stuff.

The geometry is different than a Sam. Longer wheelbase - longer CS and more fork rake. Lower BB, longer TT. HT and ST seems to be in between the Atlantis and Sam.

Seems like a more stretched out and stable bike, and sits between an atlantis and hillborne.

[Kurt Manley]

It's a 700c, 29x2.1 on it in the photo

[Kainalu]

Anyone looking for an early adopter of your Appaloosa handlebars? I'll be happy to take them.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm looking at those bars and thinking "$2100 for that sweet handlebar, and it comes with a FREE BIKE attached"