Tires/Wheels for new Sam Hillborne

[Mark Taintor]

I have a new 56 cm Sam that's going to be built up in the next week or so, and I've got a couple questions about tires and wheels for it:

1. I'll be putting on Longboard fenders and was wondering if 40 mm Marathon Supremes would work with them. Would it be better to run the 35 mm Supremes? I know there's clearance for 40 mm tires on the Hillborne but don't know if that is with/without fenders.

2. Anybody ever put 650B wheels on a 56 Sam? Looking on the Riv website at the page for the Betty Foy, it says that the Betty and the Sam can take the same volume tires. The Betty mostly uses 650B wheels. As of now I'm planning on 700c wheels, but am intrigued with 650B. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark

[Kelly]

My wife has 700x40 supremes under longboards on her Atlantis and I've run them on my Ahh so you should be fine.

Kelly

[Eric Platt]

Yes, you can put 40mm Supremes under fenders.  Have done it on both the original green Hillborne and my present blue.  The newer bikes have enough room that I could easily put on 45mm tires and maybe even 50 if I was careful. (Which I am not, so won't).

 

Can't help on the other part.

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

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[Mitch Browne]

I've ridden Supreme 40's under my Atlantis Longboards daily for almost two years now. Love them. No fit issues.

Mitch Browne

San Luis Obispo, CA

[Tim Gavin]

You can fit 650B wheels on any 700C bike.  The question is which brakes to use.  The Sam uses sidepull brakes.  Ask Riv what the reach is for a 650B rim on a 56 Sam.  Silver sidepulls reach to 75mm; Dia Compe/Weinmann centerpulls reach to 78mm.  If the reach is more than that, then you may be out of luck.  Well, there are BMX sidepulls that reach further, but I don't know how effective they are on larger, 650B rims.

If your Sam uses cantilever brakes, then I think you're stuck with the wheel size they're mounted for.

The question is, what would you gain with 650B?  You can already fit 45mm tires on 700C rims on the Sam.  Do you want more float than that?  If you do, then go for it.  

I converted my Riv Road to 650B and love it.  But I was limited to 28mm tires on 700C rims, and much prefer the 38mm Lierres.  I may even try some light knobbies for gravel ("27.5er" MTB tires are getting more available).  And it's pretty easy to swap back and forth between my 700C and 650B wheels; just swap brake calipers along with the wheels.

Tim

--

[p...@skywebusa.net]

You can fit 650b wheels on any 700c bike, but some 700c bikes won't fit 650b tires. This isn't an issue for Mark's Sam, but it's worth noting for 650b conversions in general. If your frame has tight clearances with 25mm 700c tires, currently-available 650b tires will be very tight. If 23mm 700c tires are tight, you're likely SOL without frame modification. AFAIK there are no 650b tires narrower than 32mm currently available; GB Cypres and Hutchinson Confrérie des 650 are the narrowest at 32-33mm. The only very slightly narrower tire sometimes available is the discontinued Michelin Megamium, 31-32mm.

I have two 650b conversions in-house with less than 2mm tire clearance at the chainstays, a '96 Waterford 1200 with Megamiums and a '76 Mooney with Confreries. Both are pretty tight with 25mm 700c tires. They have vertical drops so no chance of wheel slippage, and I'm stupid enough to ride both---on decent roads, not too far from home. The Mooney is Reynolds 531 but has great paint, so I'm not ready to have the chainstays crimped. The W'ford also has great paint, but beyond that it's built with Reynolds 753, not a great candidate for crimping. Nothing wider than the Megamiums will fit in the W'ford, so when either of those tires dies it's back to 700c.

The question is most definitely "what would you gain with 650b?" The conversion ideal is using a 650b tire with enough volume to both improve the ride and not drastically change handling. On these two bikes I'd rather have 31-32mm 650b rubber and tight clearances than 25mm 700c rubber and tight clearances.

I would love to see a true 30mm supple 650b tire to help give better road manners to crit bikes...

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA 

Quoting Tim Gavin :

You can fit 650B wheels on any 700C bike.  The question is which brakes to use....The question is, what would you gain with 650B?  You can already fit 45mm tires on 700C rims on the Sam.  Do you want more float than that?  If you do, then go for it...

Tim

[William]

You can not run 650B wheels on a 700C Sam Hillborne.  The reasons are threefold

1.  Reach.  The brake clearance on a 700C Hillborne is dialed for a long reach sidepull brake.  A 650B would require ~20mm more reach than an already long reach brake.  There are no good >90mm reach brake calipers.  

2.  Drop.  Grant already dialed the frame design of the Hillborne for 700xfat tires.  Among those things that are dialed is the BB drop.  Run smaller diameter wheels, and your already low BB height will be in true pedal-scraping territory.  Virtually all recent 700c Rivendells are lousy candidates for 650B conversion for that reason.  The roadier Riv models of several years ago are good candidates because they were designed for 700xskinny and have less drop.

3.  Geo.  Grant designed the stability and handling for the 700c wheel.  He does things differently for 650B wheels.  

If you were dead-set on running 650B wheels and wanted the price and sizing of a 56 Sam, you'd switch to a 55 Betty Foy and run 650B wheels.  It would work great.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/07/2013 12:53 PM, William wrote:

You can not run 650B wheels on a 700C Sam Hillborne.  The reasons are threefold

2.  Drop.  Grant already dialed the frame design of the Hillborne for 700xfat tires.  Among those things that are dialed is the BB drop.  Run smaller diameter wheels, and your already low BB height will be in true pedal-scraping territory.  Virtually all recent 700c Rivendells are lousy candidates for 650B conversion for that reason.  The roadier Riv models of several years ago are good candidates because they were designed for 700xskinny and have less drop.

...unless you use very short cranks.

[William]

Good one, Steve, and excellent point.  

If you decide that you don't mind the fact that you can't equip your bike with brakes in 1) then you could work around the too low BB in 2) by running too short cranks.  Best of all, run no cranks or BB at all, since you'll probably want your feet on the ground anyway to provide Fred Flintstone braking.  You could make it into an adult sized skuut bike!  That would be fun!  

[Mark Taintor]

Thanks for all your thoughts everyone. I've been convinced to stay with the 700c wheels that it was designed for. 

Now as to my other question, 40mm Supremes vs 35mm Supremes? Any reason to pick one over the other? 

Mark

[Eli Daniel]

I have a 56 Sam with 37mm Soma New Express tires under longboards, and
there's plenty more room. If the Marathons are really 3mm fatter, I'd
think it would be fine.

-Eli

[Minh]

double-check with riv but many schwalbes come in undersize relative to the label, my 35's actually measure 33, i think the 40/42 supremes come in around 37.  if you have the space (and on my hillborne with 48m steel fenders i can handle a 37) then i suggest as much tire as possible.  

[William]

The reasons to pick the 40s are:

more comfy, more durable, more traction, more safety, no slower

The reasons to pick the 35s are:  

you are a gram-counter and want the lighter ones or you are forced to 35s because the 40s won't fit

[Michael]

Two concerns: Tire height and tire width.

 

Tire Width:

RBW says that the P45 Longboard fits tires up to 45m wide.

 

Tire Height:

You have to think about the height of the tire and being able to have enough clearance to sandwich the fender and brake arms between the top of the tire and bottom of the fork crown, and will there be enough clearance for the brake arms to move without them smushing down on the fender.

 

Now, running a 35 tire should be able to get you more space vertically between the top of the tire and the bottom of fork crown, if a 40 doesn't work. So you could mount the fender further away from the brake arms if more space is needed so they do not contact the fender. That is the only benefit I can think of to having a narrower tire. Other than a narrower tire looks cool.

 

For instance, both my 52 Sam and 55 Bleriot have their P45 Longboard fenders mounted as high as they will go under the fork crowns in order to accommodate my 650b x 42mm Marathons (Sam) and 650bx42mm Hetre tires (on Bleriot) with my Tektro R559 brake calipers on both bikes.

 

I have about 1.5 mm of space between the bottom of Tektro brake arm and the fender on the Sam with marathon. The space grows as the brakes are applied. It is tight, but works great. Brakes do not touch fenders, and their is plenty of clearance for the tires.

About 3mm of clearance between the Bleriot Tektro R559 brakes and the fender with Hetres. Plenty-o-space.

 

(BTW, the Marathons are called 42mm and the Hetres are called 42mm width tires by their manufacturers, but both measure 40.5mm width on synergy rims at 55 psi).

 

[RJ March]

I am looking to get fenders for my Sam. I am running 650bx42 Gran Bois tires. 

I am partial to the hammered Honjo's 650bx58 but have a hard time imagining they will fit the modern Sam (with the long-reach caliper brakes instead of the trusty ol' canti's). Has anyone managed to fit the Honjo 650bx58? 

Alternatively, I think the VO Zeppelin 52mm Fenders 650b will work. Has anyone tried it successfully on the modern Sam? 

Thanks for your help on this!

R.J. 

[Surlyprof]

I've ridden 40 Mondials under sks fenders with no problems. They measure just a shade under 40. I did grind out the hole on the attachment bracket in the front to get the fender all the way up to the fork. Easy to do with a die grinder, Dremel or file. You have to bend the bracket over anyway. I prefer the Barlow Pass ELs over the Schwalbes. Silky smooth.

John

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I also bought those fenders for my new (at the time) Sam and had those tires.  My mechanic who is very good by the way, could not get them to fit.  I had to end up putting them on a Cheviot that I own with no problems.  My Sam remains without fenders which actually I am ok with.

[drew]

 unless I was considering a long trip, through puncturous land, i would probably opt for a different tire. There are some really nice ones in the 40mm range that will make your sam feel excellent. I also am of the belief that most rivs should ever wear a tire less than 40mm. but that's just me. 

[RJ March]

Hey Chris - did your mechanic try to fit the Velo Orange Zeppelin or the Honjo fenders? And is your Sam the one with caliper brakes? 

Thanks!

R.J.  

[Surlyprof]

The sks fenders with the 40s were a little bit of a tough fit but I was able to get decent clearance. As I mentioned, I had to elongate the mounting hole almost down to the fender. I also had to bend it over like they showed on one of the Riv videos. That was the only way I could slam them flush with the underside of the fork crown. Worked great. I'd try to get a picture but I'm not running fenders now and the Mondials aren't mounted.

John

[Surlyprof]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/24621117222/in/dateposted-public/

Found a photo. Not sure if you can zoom in tight enough to see the modified mounting bracket.

John