Practical differences - SON vs Shimano Dyno hub?

[Tony DeFilippo]

Any personal experiences to back up the price delta? I'm currently running a shimano on my 650b converted trek. Aside from an intermittent 'chirp' that I sometimes notice I have no complaints. I'll be building up another dyno wheel in 700c this fall, and I'm curious if anyone can talk me into the son. It definitely wins on looks...

Is it basically like choosing between a nice XT/105 rear hub vs a king/white/Paul version...?

Thanks,
Tony

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

I have Shimano dynamos (forget the model) on 3 bikes. 2 of them have been on for about 2 years of daily use in Portland, OR. Both of them work fine (the lights work) but both make the occasional chirp or squeak. About 6-months ago I bought another Shimano (the whole wheel was $100... how could I pass). I think the next bike I convert to dynamo (either my wife's Betty or my Homer) will get a Schmidt. If for no other reasons than 1) I've grown suspicious of the longevity of the Shimanos. and 2) I'm curious if I notice a difference. Granted, none of the Shimanos have crapped out on me, but I believe what I've read about the seals and the lesser dymano hubs rusting from the inside... especially as the chirps and squeaks seem to be increasing.   

The other thing I'll say about dynamo lights is that they're addicting. Once we got a bike w/ dynamo, the bikes w/o dynamo seem to be incomplete. I've found myself say on several occasions "Can't take that bike... it doesn't have lights." It's a bummer thing to say when the bike w/o lights is one of my favorite to ride - my Homer. 

--Smitty

[IanA]

The SP hubs are worth a look too, maybe nicer than Shimano and at a similar (ish) price point.  I have a SON28 Klassik and it's something I haven't regretted spending the money on for a moment.  It's a wonderful thing.  I'd like a dynamo for the commuter now (Smitty is correct that dynamo hubs are addictive), but it will be Shimano or SP. I wouldn't feel okay leaving a SON equipped bike locked up in town, unattended etc.

Ian A

Edmonton AB Canada

[Tony DeFilippo]

Thanks Ian and Smitty!

Completely agree about the addiction... jeesh. I've had the shimano dyno with a supernova front and rear light for about 3 months now and still get a kick out of it.  And I haven't even done a whole lot of night riding.  With the Atlantis likely to take over most commuting duties from my Trek and days getting shorter I'm actually going to NEED lighting more than ever.  So it's definitely getting a dyno.  Economics may point to another shimano for me though, especially considering the cost of adding good lights as well...

Related follow up question - What dyno lights are popular for you guys?

The Supernova E3 Pro headlight and matching taillight have not dissapointed in performance, the headlight in particular is very bright with a fairly concentrated 'light field'.  They are pretty sharp looking lights though I'm not sure they are up to the look of the edelux... I've been intrigued by the Luxus U of course, but am not sure I want to deal with a button to mount on my handlebars.

Tony

[Matthew J]

I have only had the SON.  Looks are subjective of course, but I think the SON is somewhat homely compared to my MaxiCar and Peter Weigle modified Campy Gran Sport front hubs.

What is not subjective about the SON is how smooth it rides on or off, it durability, and the quality of the charge.  

SON is a small company without the management and marketing expenses Shimano has.  So to me anyway it seems a stretch to suggest the extra cost of a SON -v- the competition is pizzazz.  The SON is a well engineered, well built piece of kit.  I could never see buying anything else.

[Pepe Demarest]

I love my SON! I have him on a Centurian Pro-tour which has been smooth and issue free for 3 years.  I also have a Shimano dynahub on my wife's ANT.  While it is trouble-free (much less miles) there is also considerable drag.  I consider the Schmidt SON a great investment.

[Patrick Moore]

Pepe: what model and year is your Shimano? IME, the newer and better quality Shimanos (DH 3X71, 72, 80 all have the same bearings, says Sheldon) don't have any more *noticeable* drag than my SON 20R, and buzz less.

Hearing from BQ that the Shimano d-hub tested wore out in a few thousand miles from bad bearings, I had all of mine adjusted and re-lubed before building, and have had no problems, or noise, from them.

I've got an SP waiting to be built into my Ram's front wheel: 380 grams, claimed higher efficiency and lower resistance than any other make -- have not seen any proof of this -- and certainly jewel like in appearance.

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[Tom Harrop]

I've got a SON Klassik and a Shimano DH-3N70 dynohub and I find them both good. The SON lives on my Bombadil (touring, commuting, transport) and the Shimano lives on a beater / city / winter bike. The Schmidt seems "nicer" but I would not swear that I can tell the difference when riding. Basically, I would get another Schmidt for a nice bike, or another Shimano for a beater / city bike. What's the logic behind that? Dunno!

[Tony DeFilippo]

Tom -  that passes my own 'logic' test... still may end up Shimano just to keep the budget right for the fall.  But we'll see.

[rcnute]

I've had both and I think the drag on the Shimano is more noticeable.  Slight but it's there.    

Ryan

On Friday, August 16, 2013 10:38:43 PM UTC-7, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[ted]

I suspect tire choice may affect how noticeable a difference in hub drag is. Small differences in hub drag will be a bigger fraction of total rolling resistance if you are using light easy rolling tires than if you are using heavy stiff super stout tires. This may also argue for using the less expensive hub on a commuter bike, as folks often use stouter tires for commuting.

[ascpgh]

Tony:

I just got my first generator hub, a SON. I looked, watched, listened and lurked over every post about them and once I got the ball going I couldn't justify choosing parts other than the ones I knew I wanted to use and I am happy to have done so. No one I spoke to ever said "next time I will get the <insert generator hub name here>  instead of the Schmidt". I waited, bought smart and held out until I did not have to justify it for my commuting use. Ditto for a very well-bought Luxos-B light. In the end I was so close in budget that my preferences were easily justifiable. Being able to use it on either of my bikes was the only art of the deal as I designed it.

The first ride with the hub/wheel and light was like being a kid with my first new bike. I had been working on our house all day, wife away on business, had a meager supper and was tinkering with the last details to get the generator and light up and working. It was so impressive in the work stand that I grabbed my riding shoes, helmet and went outside to the street. First I headed for a gap in the street lights, then I turned left, and it just swept over me. I rode for the next two and a half hours, able for the first time to feel not marginalized in my nighttime travel and that included a wide array of lights from spendy rechargeable battery pack rigs (one of which popped out of its cheap bar bracket after a meager bump, swung on its cord's radius into the front spokes killing itself, the wheel and nearly me), and a spectrum of cheap LED battery burners I have used in my over-reacting response. It was one of the most simply superior experiences I have ever had with a bike. I simply could not find enough dark places to ride and felt like I was seeing the whole town at night for the first time, not just trying to escape home like some roach in the kitchen trying to scurry back to its dark place when the lights come on.

Whatever you choose, do so in a way that makes you happy in the end. I am able to speak to that utterly pleased outcome of my years-long odyssey to make my own light as I ride to and from work. I'll be out there more now.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh  

[Matthew J]

> This may also argue for using the less expensive hub on a commuter bike, as folks often use stouter tires for commuting.

Maybe just dumb luck, but I have been commuting on wonderfully smooth rolling Grand Bois Cypres (SON hub up front) now for 7 months with no flats.  If a commuter can afford the experiment, I highly recommend trying.  After all, most people who bike commute spend more of their cycling time on the commuter than any other bike.

Also, SON makes some great rough stuff variants.  Just this week Peter White says he is now stocking a fat wheel SON.

[Jonathan Shinefeld]

Hey Tony. I've run the Ultegra level Shimano generator hub for 7-8 years and it continues to work perfectly on my daily LHT commuter. A couple years ago I put a SON hub on my Rambouillet and don't feel any difference. They're both great and with efficient LEDs, I run with headlights all the time. Jan Heine says the SON is more efficient, but not so much for my riding style (slow). Im sure performance differences are more relevant for faster riders.
If you take your front wheel off often, one difference that might matter is the wire connectors. The Shimano uses a 1 piece connector that is very convenient to disconnect and replace. I seem to fumble more with the individual wire connectors on the SON.
From my perspective, I don't think you can go wrong with either. If you're a faster rider then the performance advantage of the SON might be worth the extra $.
Jon in Philly

[Montclair BobbyB]

I owned a SON on a previous bike (which I have since sold), and it was an absolutely beautiful hub... It made me think "If Phil Wood made a dynamo hub, this would be it"...  But honestly I was hard-pressed to notice whether it gave better performance than my Shimano or SRAM dyno-hubs.

Since then I have owned several dynamos, including Shimano DH-3N70, SRAM iLight, and Sturmey Archer X-FDD.  They all performed well; the Shimano (to me) feels like the best quality of the 3 (and for much less $ than the SON).  I've gotten some great deals on the SRAM iLight, and I really like that hub too.  The Sturmey (don't ask me why) seems like it's not quite as powerful, but that could be my imagination.  They certainly look like amazingly well-built hubs for the $.  But I can understand for certain builds (where you want that high end quality finish), you may just have to go with a Phil Wood, or a Chris King or a SON... the quality of the SON hub is apparent... it's solid.

I haven't heard too many bad reviews on dynamo hubs (which is the best news)... these days you don't have to spend much to get a quality dyno setup on your bike.  I have em on several bikes... it's just the way to go.

BB

On Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:38:43 AM UTC-4, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[Joe Hogg]

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Hi Andy,

Very nice description of careful researching, acquisition, and building your lighting system and being satisfied in the end. What did you decide  about a rear light?

Thanks,

Joe Hogg
LA, CA

[Minh]

Tony,

I have two of them (like everyone says Dynamo wheels multiply!), a older SON28 and a SonDeluxe, i've not used the Shimano ones, but i'm inline with your thinking, the Shimano offer great value, for most use-cases will do what it needs to (i.e. provide power to the lights).  The SON are just prettier, i can't finger a functional delta--maybe the rolling resistance is better but i would never be able to tell.  

If you really want to see a SON in real life i can share one of my wheels, the rims and tires will be different (and i think those make a bigger difference).

[Tony DeFilippo]

Andy - "No one I spoke to ever said "next time I will get the <insert generator hub name here>  instead of the Schmidt"."  How true!  I certainly haven't heard this from anyone either

Minh - I may have to take you up on that offer!  As close as we are, and riding the same paths I think we need to do a ride sometime regardless!

Jon - Great point about the connectors, I do end up taking the front wheel off on my trek a fair amount... sometimes my wife comes into the city for dinner or happy hour after work and I catch a ride home with her and throw the bike in the back.  I've even had some issue with the shimano disconnect coming undone.  I'll need to check out a SON in person I think as a good next step!

Tony

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[ascpgh]

Tony:

How about an intermediate, single plug, connector above the SON dual clips?

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh, PA

[Philip Williamson]

A single plug clip on the SON would be a worthwhile hack. I have an older Schmidt and a nice Shimano, and the wire connector for the Shimano is an elegant, useful bit. Easy to rig up (no solder), and easy to clip into the hub. If I get another dynamo hub, it would probably be a silver disc SON, to match the White ENO hub I just got, and I'd build an elegant 29er fixed road bike.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Jimmy Hutch]

I have three bikes with SON hubs, a Brompton with 11k+ miles, a Bike Friday and a Rivendell AHH each with a couple thousand miles.  I ride with my "lights on" day and night so cannot tell if there is material drag or not.  My SON hubs have performed flawlessly.  

I also have a Shimano Alfine dynamo hub on my relatively low mileage Surly Big Dummy, it works fine except the connector sucks.  I see that others praise the single connector but it is a cheap piece of plastic (shit) that has problems.  

Trying to decide between SON and a Shimano is a lot like trying to decide between a BMW and a Honda - the BMW is nicer but you pay a lot of $$$$ for each incremental improvement.  I'd take a Shimano dynamo over no dynamo any day of the week.  And if I was a rational consumer I would probably own only Shimano dynamo hubs.

[Eric Platt]

The main problem I've noticed on the Shimano dynohubs is the tendency for the connection to go bad.  On my wife's bike usually means taking a small knife and removing the oxidation on the connector.  Eventually it will be a problem.  That's one advantage the SON has. 

 

FWIW, I have two bikes with SON hubs.  Both have worked for a number of years without a second thought.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

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[M D Smith]

Eric wrote:

"The main problem I've noticed on the Shimano dynohubs is the tendency for the connection to go bad.  On my wife's bike usually means taking a small knife and removing the oxidation on the connector.  Eventually it will be a problem.  That's one advantage the SON has. "

To which I reply:

To help prevent oxidation on the connectors, go to Radio Shack or an auto supply place and get some dielectric grease. Put a dab in the connector. It works very well to prevent oxidation of electrical components in harsh environments.

It's cheap insurance and good for lots of other electrical connections as well. I always put a tiny dab on the battery ends in my tail light, too.

Lots of auto places have tiny packets at the check out station for a buck or two.

Cheers- Mime in Htfd CT

[M D Smith]

Stupid phone- Should have signed off:

Mike in Htfd

[BenG]

After studying a Riv Reader report of their side-by-side drag test on then-current Shimano and SON hubs, I purchased a SON28 x Velocity Synergy 36h wheel from Rich Lesnik, and it's performed beautifully for several 1500mi+ riding seasons.  Not many miles off-road, but I hop curbs and bang up and down hills a bit.  Powers one of the IQ CYO variant headlights (the one with a closer-range reflector setup) and the tail light that Riv now sells.  I'm satisfied, fully.

[Eric Platt]

Thanks for the tip.  Will buy some and give it a go.

On Aug 19, 2013 9:43 AM, "M D Smith" <bee...@gmail.com> wrote:

Stupid phone- Should have signed off:

Mike in Htfd