Some 650b conversion pics

[Jim Bronson]

https://plus.google.com/photos/110759113894226395434/albums/5948811384486030177

Hopefully link works.  Set to public.

Cream SKS Long boards are on the way from Rivendell.  But the rest of it is mostly complete.  Yes, I realize the saddle looks terrible, but it still works ;)

New Components
Handspun 650b wheelset synergy/deore LX, front dynohub
11-30 HG50 cassette 9sp
SRAM PC971 chain
Sugino XD600 46-36-26
UN-55 bottom bracket 68x113
DuraAce BS77 9 speed bar ends
Tektro R559 brakes
VP Pedals
Kneesavers
Bar tape
Cables

Reused
Frame
Fork
Handlebars
Tektro brake levers
Stem
Saddle
Seatpost
Campy Chorus polished rear derailer
Campy Racing -T polished front derailer
Electronic goodies (not mounted in pics)
Topeak Trunk bag (not mounted in pics)
Bento bag

[Edwin W]

Looks like a (Maxi) Mini Velo!

[cyclotourist]

Jim, looks great! Fantastic color on that frame BTW. How is what I
presume to be a relatively low BB height working out? I've played
around with doing just that on my Riv Road, but am not sure I can
quite fit Hetres in there.

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Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Jim Bronson]

I shortened the cranks from 180 to 170 to compensate for the low BB height, plus the 180s were hurting my knees.  I ride 175s on my other bikes and it feels good.  I don't think going one more step down to 170s is hopefully going to cause any problems.  It seems fine just riding around.  It does feel like I need to put the seat higher now, I'll work on that tomorrow afternoon.

Speaking of riding around, shifting is awesome now with my mixed drivetrain with the Shimano bar-ends.  It shifted like crap with the Campy bar-ends and the Shimano cassette, but now that has been successfully remedied with Shimano bar-ends.  I've been told the 9 speed spacing is the same but who knows.  Oh well works great now.  And I have a friction option now too that I didn't have before.  

My cream longboards showed up about 5:45 this evening but my wife and I had a social engagement to go to.  I just finished watching the installation video Riv posted.  I don't have a kickstand plate though, and I don't think my chainstay bridge is threaded.  I suppose I could drill it out and tap some threads.  Or just use zip ties.  Well anyway I hope to have it done by Saturday morning so I can go ride in the rain :-) and cold :-(

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[cyclotourist]

Get crackin' on that project, running out of time! Hopefully the 170s
will be fine. Are you going to put Hetres on?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Fender installation (and spacing) hack for non-drilled chainstay bridge: http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8366365230/in/set-72157630957672582

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[Tim Gavin]

That's a fun and quick fender stay method, Tom.

My Riv Road has no plate, and only a small drain hole on the chainstay bridge.  I used a rubber covered P-clamp and a long bolt to span the gap (you filled the gap with a cork, nice).  The long bolt allowed me to fine tune the fender arc.

I can get  a picture later if you want it, Jim.  Very nice bike.  The cream longboards look fantastic with the Riv head tube and decals.

[Steven Frederick]

Looks good-the kneesavers incorporate a lot more cleanly than they did with my Eggbeaters.  Hope they're working out for you...

Steve

--

[dougP]

Jim:

So you took a 700c wheeled bike & converted to 650b?  Ignoring the tires for the moment, doesn't that lower everything 19 mm?  What effect does it have on the handling?  I've read about picking a wheel size & designing a bike around that, so this seems a radical change.  OTH, people have been converting 80s era bikes to 650 with good result.  How did you know this was going to work? 

dougP

[Patrick Moore]

Isn't the sole point of this conversion exercise that you can use *fatter* tires, and significantly fatter tires? So, while you might lose some bb height, you won't lose nearly the whole 19 mm ....?

A 622X23 mm tire is about 26 1/2" in diameter. A 559 X 1" tire is about 24" in diameter. A 559X35 mm tire is about 25" in diameter. A 559 X 50 tire is about 26" in diameter. I cite these only as being directly or indirectly relevant sizes known to me by experience.

Thus, if you went from a 700C X 25 to a 650B X 42, which seems common, wouldn't you gain back some 10 to 15 mm?

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Albuquerque, NM

[Jim Cloud]

The early models of the Rivendell Road were designed for a 700x28c tire size,  I don't believe you would be able to fit a 650x42b size tire between the chainstays of those particular bikes (I also own an original 1996 model of the Road Standard). 

I don't, however, see a post by the OP that indicates what is the tire size that he fitted to his bike.  The tread pattern, however, looks like one used by RIvendell.  The only tire that Rivendell currently sells in the 650b size that's a Rivendell design is the Maxy Fasty which is a 650Bx33.5 size.

Jim

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/24/2013 09:12 PM, Jim Cloud wrote:
> The early models of the Rivendell Road were designed for a 700x28c
> tire size, I don't believe you would be able to fit a 650x42b size
> tire between the chainstays of those particular bikes (I also own an
> original 1996 model of the Road Standard).

Don't know about a 42mm tire, but the waterford-era Riv Road is on the
list of known-to-work conversions on the freewebs 650B site:
http://650b.webs.com/conversions.htm

[Jim Bronson]

My bike is an older custom that had 700x28 on it when I got it used in 2005/6.  Probably designed around 700x28 for the original owner.  I had been running Grand Bois Cypress 700x32 for a while but with minimal brake clearance.

I took it on a post-conversion 130 mile shakedown ride yesterday and handling seems to be unaltered.  I even pedaled around a u-turn on a narrow road and didn't suffer a pedal strike, which I had been worried about.

I was running Nifty Swifties which are labeled as 650b x "32.8 mm or so".  I also installed P45 cream long boards that I got from Rivendell.  Those were not depicted in the images in the thread starter.  It was wonderful to have the fenders as temperatures hovered in the mid to upper 30s with intermittent drizzle all day.  Not exactly chamber of commerce weather for Central Texas.

For me, running fatter tires with fenders is the whole reason I did the conversion in the first place.  So far I am pretty happy with it.  I will try wider tires still when I get around to it.  I have some Pacenti Pari-motos waiting in the garage,  650b x 38.  I'm pretty sure those and the 42s also will fit.  I may have cut the fender stays a bit short but I'm sure spare parts are available.

--

[Jim Bronson]

I have the Nifty Swifty installed in the pics.  They are very inexpensive, and I wanted something to try out 650b with, without having to invest $120 or more in tires.  I got the Nifty Swifty tires for $26 each from ebikestop.com.

The Maxy Fasty is the same as the Nifty Swifty but without the Nifty Swifty's extra flat protection belt.

How wide is your Road Standard's chain stay bridge?  Would be interesting to compare.  Mine is not very wide.  Barely enough to accommodate the fender.

[Philip Williamson]

23mm 700c = 42mm 650B; 

32mm 700c = 50mm 650B 

http://www.biketinker.com/2011/bike-resources/equivalent-bicycle-wheel-diameter-with-different-tires/ 

I had a nice chat today with a fellow at the bike shop (an employee) who had put 650B GIGANTIC knobbies on his Surly 1x1, which was designed for 559 tires. I was at the shop scaling back the gravel roadster's tire size in order to go tubeless (no direct connection of size to tubeless, just that the kevlar bead Supremes I have are smaller than my wire bead Big Apples).  

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Tim Gavin]

The Waterford era ('94-97ish) Riv Road Standards do work for 650b conversion, but they're not ideal.  Mine is an early '97, with a max of 700x28x tires (less than 2mm of clearance above Ruffy Tuffy's)

I converted mine from 700x28c to 650x38b, which dropped the bike 9mm (lost 19mm of rim, gained back 10mm of tire).  I have scraped the outside edge of the pedal once or twice, but I usually drag a heel before I drag a pedal.  A rare and avoidable occurrence, either way.

650x38b seems to be the maximum tire on this frame, as both fork blades and chainstays are too tight for 42mm Hetres, as far as I can see (currently running 38mm Lierre).

This conversion makes room for P45 Longboard fenders, but the front tip of the rear fender is squeezed a bit in the chainstays.  Also, the long mudflap becomes a big leaf scoop; I take it off on non-rainy days.  I'll probably add the shorty mudflap to my next Riv order.

Tim

[Jim Cloud]

As the site that you reference indicates, Rivendells with a 8 cm (80mm) drop and 325mm radius tires only have a bottom bracket clearance of 9 1/2 " - "which is very low for anything longer than probably 155mm cranks":.

Tim's post indicates that his bike doesn't have clearance for tires larger than 650Bx38mm, this is probably the same for my bike and most other early Rivendell Road Standard bikes with a 80mm drop bottom bracket.  In my opinion, the success of a 650B conversion with these bikes would be conditional on the length of the crank arms (and choice of tires).  Anything more than 170mm is probably not very advisable, and perhaps 165mm would be a better option.  The largest radius tires that will fit between the chainstays ( approximately 38mm) would also be more practical.

Most of the 700c conversions to 650B are bikes that had bottom bracket drops of 65mm-70mm.  Obviously, when Grant originally designed the Waterford era Rivendell Road Standards he was biased to a lower bottom bracket which he preferred for handling.  The bikes were never envisioned for a 650B conversion (obviously, since the French 650B tire was almost defunct in that period).  I still think a Rivendell Road Standard conversion is possible and may provide satisfaction to the owner, but clearance of the pedals may be an issue for care while cycling (pedaling through a tight curve is probably not advisable).

Jim

[Jim Bronson]

The more you describe it, the more I think that my custom is closest in geometry to those early Riv Road Standards.  Being the 2nd owner, I don't know much about the history, but the gist of it was that he was probably too tall for an off the shelf Road Standard at 6'5".  I'm a little taller at 6'7" but I think the frame works well for me for the most part.

At any rate I had the same issues with the Longboards that you mentioned, the front mudflap tended to catch and drag and the front tip of the rear fender is a bit squeezed in the chainstays.

Although, I did mount the brake tab behind the fork, which I think magnified the mudflap dragging issues.  I will be moving it to the front of the fork the next time the bike is in the stand.  Hopefully that will help some.  If not I might trim it up a bit.

[Jim Bronson]

I can attest that so far it's working fine with 170 cranks, and without putting on the 38mm tires I bought.  I didn't scrape on a uturn on a narrow road while pedaling, and I would never pedal on a corner with a lot of bike lean in it.  So I think it's fine so long as you're mindful of what you're doing, and clearly anyone who would convert their bike to 650b is probably very mindful of what they're doing.  

A 650b conversion not something that you could just go down to your local LBS and ask them to do without getting a few blank stares.  Well if they're not of the Rivendell mindset anyway ;)

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[Tim Gavin]

I also moved the brake tab to the back of the fork with a Sheldon's nut, and it exacerbated the low mudflap issue.  It still doesn't drag on clean pavement, but it makes me "Mr. Plow" in loose leaves.

Like I said, I just take the flap off during leaf season.  It comes off in seconds; just push the central pin out with the smallest hex on your multi tool.  Stows in my luggage, so I can put it on quick if rain breaks out.

A 650b conversion not something that you could just go down to your local LBS and ask them to do without getting a few blank stares.  Well if they're not of the Rivendell mindset anyway ;)

That's true, but I get blank stares with all my bikes at the LBS.  They're all lugged steel, and all have my own goofy custom touches.  

However, I love the simplicity of the conversion.  With the fenders off, I can swap wheels and brake calipers in 10 minutes or so, and go back to 700c any time.  I have a 7 speed Phil FW hub on my 700c wheels, and a 9 speed cassette on my 650b wheelset.  Silver friction shifters don't care.

Tim

[Dave Johnston]

I have a 72mm drop on a conversion bike that previously maxed out at 700 x28. Currently it has Niftly Swifty 32.8mm tires and maybe it would fit 35mm tires but not more. With clipless pedals I never had a pedal strike issue with 170mm cranks but I would occasionally have a strike issue with MKS touring pedals. I have power grips on the MKS and I really like that setup so I just recently switched to 165mm cranks. So far I can't tell while riding that the cranks are shorter (other than raising my saddle) but I don't really have the mileage to determine if strike is eliminated, but it has to be an improvement.

I personally wouldn't convert a bike with a 180mm drop and passed on a great deal on a beautiful old lugged bike with a 178mm drop and chainstay clearances for only a 33mm tire max.

-Dave Johnston

[Greg J]

I'm pretty sure the early production Riv Roads had 75mm drop. I also vaguely recall Grant mentioning how he increased the drop on the Rambouillet, maybe to 78mm?

Greg

[Tim Gavin]

Gen 1 Riv Roads have 80mm of drop, for a BB height of 260mm (according to the early catalog) http://www.campyonly.com/images/mystuff/2006/rivendell_road/rivendell_catalog_3.pdf

That BB height is measured on 700x25c tires.  Converting to 650x38 equals a frame drop of 6mm (19mm smaller wheel radius, 13mm larger tire), for a BB height of 254mm.  Not a huge difference.  

But in the same article, Grant already warns about pedal clearance in corners.  Lower the bike by 6mm and you should be very conscious of pedal scrapes.  Gaining back 5mm of that clearance with shorter cranks isn't a bad idea.

I find the advantages of the 650b conversion to be huge (cushy tires and fender clearance), and the risk of pedal scrapes to be a minimal disadvantage.  ATMO.

Tim

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Greg J <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm pretty sure the early production Riv Roads had 75mm drop.  I also vaguely recall Grant mentioning how he increased the drop on the Rambouillet, maybe to 78mm?

Greg

[Bill Lindsay]

"I find the advantages of the 650b conversion to be huge (cushy tires and fender clearance), and the risk of pedal scrapes to be a minimal disadvantage.  ATMO."

Also, just in case you want or need corroboration from somebody not-named-Grant, check Bicycle Quarterly when they do the review of the Lyon L'Avecaise.  They loved it, and it had a BB height lower than even Grant's "safe minimum" of 260mm, and that is a purpose-built 650B race bike.  I don't have it in front of me, so I forget if it was 256 or 254mm, but it's in the 250s and they LOVED it.  

Disclosure:  Even though Jan loved that bike and even though that bike had a low BB, Jan pretty emphatically states elsewhere that BB height has almost nothing to do with ride quality.  Conventional wisdom is a lower BB height gives more stability.  Jan pretty convincingly debunks that.  Lower BB height doesn't do much of anything.  It's neutral.  You don't need a low BB, and you don't necessarily need to be scared of a low BB.  Maybe 250mm should be the new safe minimum for conversions?

[Leslie]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 2:19:05 PM UTC-5, Greg J wrote:

I'm pretty sure the early production Riv Roads had 75mm drop.  I also vaguely recall Grant mentioning how he increased the drop on the Rambouillet, maybe to 78mm?  

Drop on the 700c Ram is 77mm.  

I'm one of the ones who converted to 650b and am running Hetres now.   Still like it.


FWIW...


-L

 

[mikel...@juno.com]

leslie,

what brake calipers are you using on your Ram conversion...and what color Ram?

mike goldman
warwick,r.i.
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[Leslie]

Mike, I swapped from 538's to 559's to get the extra reach.  Green.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leslie_bright/8351739256/in/set-72157623199721925/

[Jim Bronson]

You didn't ask, but I am also running R559s on my conversion as well.  Works fine.  Will be better with kool stops, when I get around to that.