BQ on Mark's rack

[Edwin W]

In the picture of Mark's rack on the Calfee Adventure, the caption reads, "Heavy and flexible Mark's rack seems out of place on such a high end bike." What are the stiff and light options? Custom?

I am thinking of getting a Mark's rack when I can get the cash together. I don't mind the heavy part, but are they overly flexible?

Edwin "He's not heavy, he's my Sam."

[ted]

Given the source, I suppose the author would prefer one of these

http://www.compasscycle.com/racks_gb_wide.html

http://www.compasscycle.com/racks_gb_narrow.html

captions on the Racks/Bags page say "Made by Nitto, strong and light".

[Kelly]

I have marks rack on my AHH and I can't say its heavy or flexy, it just is.
Everyone is different, it does a good job for me.

Kelly

[john]

Well, he's got a point. I've used Mark's rack and the Canti-versioned "Mark's rack" which is a substantially different. The Nitto front rack designed for cantis is very strong, very beautiful. Strong because the struts are not bolted to the  rack top but brazed there. Also, the attachment from rack to fork is from a brazed strut, not one that is bolted to the rack top (as is the tang of the Mark's rack). Without a doubt the Mark's rack is not as stiff as the canti-versioned rack (sorry can't recall the name, or number, even though I've got one; I'm also too lazy to go out to the garage and check - but I know it's a "campee").

The Grand Bois rack in Jan's pictures looks a lot like the canti-versioned Nitto: really good, strong, and beautiful. 

I can't speak to weight, but for beauty and strength, I'm in BQs corner on this one.

John

On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 7:38:17 PM UTC-7, Edwin W wrote:

[Leslie]

Realize the intent of the Mark's rack:

Nitto and Grand Bois have their nice canti-mount racks out there, and when you can use it, it's the rack to go-to.  

The whole reason the Mark's rack came about was so that you could put a rack on a bike w/o canti posts... and when you go to other-than-cantis, you need to be flexible with how it mounts... so instead of fixed struts, things can be adjusted to fit a wider variety of bikes.   

My Ram, I use a Mark's on the front of it;  I have it going to the mid-fork braze-ons, and it's very stable. Yeah, you could shave a little weight if instead of being adjustable, it was designed to specifically go to the mounts, and it would be a little more stable if it could bolt straight into the fork crown, but the brake has to be there, too, so it has to use the bracket... but it can work if you don't have braze-ons, too... It's just nice to have the ability to use a rack that otherwise couldn't;  so the Mark's is really a big 'problem solver'.    

On the canti-Rom, sure, I have an M13 that I can put on since there's not a caliper in the way, and the canti-studs are at a fixed relationship so the struts are fixed;  it works, for just that configuration, but wouldn't be anywhere as easy to mount otherwise.  

So, I haven't this Calfee being discussed;   I'm assuming that it has disc brakes?   That would mean that there's not a caliper in the way of the fork crown, but that would also mean that it doesn't have canti-studs to mount to, right?   So the Grand Bois rack is out;  the Mark's is adjustable enough to mount to it, but yeah, maybe the Nitto minirack would be a better choice, since it's more flexible in how it mounts to the fork arms. 

Just some thoughts....
  

[Ron Mc]

weight-wise, all you're paying for is the steel fork-bolt strap, a couple of Nitto rod bolts, and a couple of extra inches of aluminum rod - barely a couple of ounces.  Have the VO canti-mount rack on my daughter's bike and the stiffness is notable.  

The M-18 on my bike does the rando job admirably with a tall Acorn bag and Bertoud decaleur.  

[Garth]

It's just an opinion ...... an Apple isn't an Orange .... so if you don't like one or the other .... it doesn't make one or the other any better than the other.

Two distinctly different racks. Yes, they are Racks, as fruit is fruit, but the similarities end there. 
BQ contradicts themselves often. Weight doesn't matter ... sometimes .... or does it ?   Flex doesn't .... or yes .. it does ?   LoL ;)

It's alright .... if you have a publication you have to write about something !!!!!! 

[Ron Mc]

even simpler than that - if you have canti brakes, use a canti-brake rack.  If you don't, use the other kind.  

[Jan Heine]

Consider that we are talking about a full-custom carbon bike that weighs only 21 pounds with 650B tires and lights and costs $ 11,600. In that context, Mark's rack seemed out of place. I'd rather replace the carbon stem with an aluminum one, and spend the savings on a custom rack.

A photo of the bike is here:

http://www.bikequarterly.com/current_issue.html

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Leslie]

Thanks Jan;

Seems like, if it's a full custom bike, and you're going w/ carbon fiber, shouldn't you have a carbon fiber rack?    Not that I've heard of such, but.... if you're going custom....

FWIW...

 

[Ron Mc]

Jan, thanks for the context.  The Marks rack would look a bit cobbled on a $12,000 carbon bike.  

[Matthew J]

Definitely, thanks for the context.

SH is a fine bike.  But even Riv promotes it as a more affordable option for people who may not want to spend for an AHH or Atlantis.  How well or not Mark's rack suits a Calfee custom has absolutely nothing to do with how it suits an SH.  

[Garth]

The Nitto Canti rack is the M12.  They also make a M12SL, made from tubular stainless steel. 250g/215g.  http://www.alexscycle.com/campee-1/camping-carrier/nitto-m12sl.html

I use the 2 struts on top to attach Mark's rack to the Bombadil crown instead of the tang, and it is as solid as it needs to be, it's not like I'm going to put 50 lbs. on it ;)   Though some may try !

The only thing about canti mounted racks is do the custom bolts work with every cantilever brake ? ?

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 1:36:58 AM UTC-4, john wrote:

Well, he's got a point. I've used Mark's rack and the Canti-versioned "Mark's rack" which is a substantially different. The Nitto front rack designed for cantis is very strong, very beautiful. Strong because the struts are not bolted to the  rack top but brazed there. Also, the attachment from rack to fork is from a brazed strut, not one that is bolted to the rack top (as is the tang of the Mark's rack). Without a doubt the Mark's rack is not as stiff as the canti-versioned rack (sorry can't recall the name, or number, even though I've got one; I'm also too lazy to go out to the garage and check - but I know it's a "campee").

The Grand Bois rack in Jan's pictures looks a lot like the canti-versioned Nitto: really good, strong, and beautiful. 

John

[Brian Campbell]

$11k on a custom performance bike and it still doesn't meet the riders requirements, crazy!

[justin...@gmail.com]

Seems like a dummy move - shoulda used a Nitto Mini-Campee.

-J

[Peter Morgano]

I would think if you were dropping 11k on a bike you would spend the couple hundred on a custom rack...

On Oct 2, 2013 8:37 PM, <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Seems like a dummy move - shoulda used a Nitto Mini-Campee.

-J

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[ted]

In the context of the original question that started this thread, perhaps what sort of front rack Jan would prefer on an $11,600 full-custom carbon bike may not be particularly relevant to choosing a front rack for your Sam Hillborne.

[Brian Campbell]

More pics of the carbon rando bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVy2iKYmqK8

FWIW, I don't believe that is a Mark's rack. My Mark's rack has a front plate that I use to mount my E3 headlight, Also the Marks rack has mounting points for two sets of struts. The rack in question only has one set of mounting points. The additional struts of a Mark's rack and moving the rack back on the brake bolt mounting tang (looks pretty far out there) would more than likely increase the stability. It would also give a better mounting point for the light.

[Will]

I must be missing something. Is an $11,600 bike relevant to BQ readers?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/02/2013 10:13 PM, Will wrote:
> I must be missing something. Is an $11,600 bike relevant to BQ readers?

Why wouldn't it be?

[Bill Lindsay]

Absolutely! BQ is seeking the absolute best possible performing bikes. It would be very hard to keep a new Rene Herse under $12000

[Brian Campbell]

I bet it is a fantastic bike to ride. One can dream....

[RJM]

I don't get the love of disk brakes on road bikes going on....I just really don't.

[Philip Williamson]

I just got my BQ today, I love the color (did not expect to), and I love the Calfee. I won't even spend $12,000 on a car, so odds are I won't spend $12,000 on a bike, but I'm glad it exists. I think Craig Calfee is the real deal - he shows up at Podunk bike expos with his bamboo frame jigs, and I meet people with his 15 year old carbon bikes still rolling strong. And... He sweeps the BQ lottery with his Adventure bike, the equal of any bike they've ever tested.

This almost seems off-topic for the Riv group, but one of Rivendell's early goals was to make bikes without parallel: thousand dollar paintjobs, unique custom lugs, the most beautiful bikes with the best ride. I think Calfee bikes are striving for the same thing, but with a different aesthetic. Also, it had Enve carbon 650B rims... the Grant - Jan - Kirk trifecta of fun have hoisted 650B into the mainstream, can you believe it?

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Pierre]

Got BQ in the mail today, I love the color. When you read the article, it is mentioned that BQ machined the rack fork crown mount so that it sits lower. Looking at the result, I can see why this may lead to increased flex.

My Mark's rack is plenty strong, works well with sidepulls and full rando bag. It does tend to sit higher than necessary. My Nitto M12 is indeed lighter and only works with Cantis.

Pierre

[Matt Beebe]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:56:52 PM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

More pics of the carbon rando bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVy2iKYmqK8

 

Is that Darth Vader behind the camera?   ;)

[blakcloud]

I still think it is a Mark's rack it just has those unneeded parts removed.

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:56:52 PM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

[Dan McNamara]

Looks to be an M-18 rack. Similar platform to the Mark's Rack but no front mount tab for a light/reflector and no mount for struts at the back end of the platform. So no fancy double-strut mounting with this rack. 

Boulder has these available with a light mount eyelet on the strut. 

Dan

[Jan Heine]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:13:59 AM UTC-7, Leslie wrote:

Seems like, if it's a full custom bike, and you're going w/ carbon fiber, shouldn't you have a carbon fiber rack?    Not that I've heard of such, but.... if you're going custom....

We once tested a carbon bike with a custom titanium rack... I am afraid that a carbon fiber rack would look a lot like a Pletscher, which is made from sheetmetal rather than tubes. (I cannot envision a rack glued from small-diameter carbon tubes that would be durable and lightweight.)

Personally, I like steel, both for frames and racks, because steel can perform as well as any other material, but it is more easily shaped and worked, giving the builder more freedom in designing things, as well as being less expensive. I do understand, however, the appeal of other materials, and even far-out bikes are relatively affordable. To put it in perspective, an $ 11,000 bike is $ 1700 less than the cheapest new car you can buy in this country (I looked it up). So for most of us, it's all about the choices we make, more than how much money we have. I bought my Rivendell custom when I was still a student working on my Ph.D. I made a choice to spend a significant portion of my money on a great bike, rather than other things.

Most of all, I like reading about interesting experiences, even if I have no aspiration to replicate them, whether it's exploring Antarctica or driving a $ 200,000 Porsche on a racetrack. I hope our readers similarly enjoy to read what it's like to take a top-of-the-line carbon 650B bike to the limit, even if they don't aspire to own such a bike or ride in such a way.

[Bill Lindsay]

Jan

I've thought that the folks at Delta 7 might be able to figure out a lightweight and durable carbon rack:

http://www.delta7bikes.com/isotruss-bike-technology.htm

It might look really weird, though.  The tiny market probably wouldn't justify the expense of developing something.  

[Scott G.]

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:42:27 PM UTC-4, RJM wrote:

I don't get the love of disk brakes on road bikes going on....I just really don't.

You probably aren't riding carbon fiber clincher rims down Tuna Canyon,
braking way too much. California Gran Fondue rides have banned CFCs
for this reason.

[Matthew J]

> I don't get the love of disk brakes on road bikes going on....I just really don't. 

Gaining momentum. I personally am very happy with rim brakes and could not see going disc.  The new SRAM road disc brakes at least look more presentable.  

[Matt Beebe]

I agree with previous comments, I would not worry about using the rack on your SH.     I think some readers (myself included) are almost shocked to see negative things written about products in magazines since most mags are merely long editorial advertisements, and any verbiage not glowingly positive must mean something is terribly wrong.    One of the things that distinguishes BQ from other cycling publications is its willingness to tell the whole story regarding the stuff they review, including any negative aspects.    Some of these negatives are down to personal opinion, and you have to keep that in mind.     As far as I know BQ is not out to sell advertising since it is paid for by its readers, and I think that is what allows it to be interesting.    

Matt


On Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:38:17 PM UTC-4, Edwin W wrote:

In the picture of Mark's rack on the Calfee Adventure, the caption reads, "Heavy and flexible Mark's rack seems out of place on such a high end bike." What are the stiff and light options? Custom?

I am thinking of getting a Mark's rack when I can get the cash together. I don't mind the heavy part, but are they overly flexible?

Edwin "He's not heavy, he's my Sam."

[Cyclofiend]

I have the Mark's rack mounted with twin struts as a rear rack on the
Hilsen. It was there to hold my Country Bag.

It is a Nitto tubular steel rack, and I'm not sure you could come up
with a lighter one that would have the strength.

As to the strength. I'm pretty sure I could sit on it (~190 lbs...)
and it wouldn't flex. There's no flex whatsoever when mounted.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/sets/72157603789184607

On Oct 1, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Edwin W wrote:

> In the picture of Mark's rack on the Calfee Adventure, the caption
> reads, "Heavy and flexible Mark's rack seems out of place on such a
> high end bike." What are the stiff and light options? Custom?
>
> I am thinking of getting a Mark's rack when I can get the cash
> together. I don't mind the heavy part, but are they overly flexible?
>
> Edwin "He's not heavy, he's my Sam."
>

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[Daniel D.]

Can't be that strong, according to the riv site it's rated for only 4.4 pounds.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Actually, those are the ratings provided by Nitto.  They are notoriously conservative. I think Grant wrote about that on a number of occasions. 

To (probably mis-)paraphrase, they derive that weight from a set of testing cycles that far surpass anything anyone is going to subject it to in the real world.

I stand by my direct experience on the Mark's Rack (as well as the Mini-Front (mid-fork, single-pole-into-crown mount)).  They are plenty sturdy.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

[grant]

The Mark's Rack --- well, here's my take on it. Consider the source, but at the least-

It is not too heavy when you consider that it's supposed to carry a load, AND when you consider Nitto's structural conservatism. The similar looking M12 is built with much lighter tubing, but its primary use is as a front bag support. It is imported to the US and people see "light rack" and --- I'm not sure what the put on  it, or how, because not many bags are made for it, and I doubt they're zip-tying Wald baskets on to 'em. But in any case, it is made with 0.8mm wall tubing, a nd the Mark's is something like 1.2--and, i think but am not sure--larger diameter. So yes, it weighs more.

Since it is not all-welded (it has adjustable stays, which---you can't do that with welds)--it's more fittable to more bikes. I think -- weight aside, adjustability aside--- the contribution MR makes is: You can put it on a sidepull bike. You can carry something on your road bike. In that way, it is not unique, but it is rare, and it works wonderfully. The lateral unstiffness has not been a problem. The rack is loaded and the weight presses down. Of course there are sideways loads during --- hard cornering with weight?--but we and our customers have used the rack for ten years or so, and have not had one user-complaint. I understand that this "challenge' may bring on a flurry of emails from riders who sense disturbance, but we ride them here, too, and as hard or harder and more often than any of our customers do (it's a guess--but any HARDER constitutes abuse)--and we, and I, love that rack.

Of course.....we profit from it. So it is reasonable to discount anything I've said here. But really...it has been an excellent and successful rack.

[Christopher Chen]

What's funny is Manny hasn't commented on this, and he's the Michael Milken of front loading.

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[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Funny.

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[Jan Heine]

On Thursday, October 3, 2013 1:11:37 AM UTC-7, Pierre wrote:

Got BQ in the mail today, I love the color. When you read the article, it is mentioned that BQ machined the rack fork crown mount so that it sits lower. Looking at the result, I can see why this may lead to increased flex.

All I did was cut the tab at the rear shorter, drill a new hole for the fork crown mounting bolt, and shorten the stays. If anything, the shorter tabs and stays should make the rack stiffer.

I agree with Grant - the Mark's Rack is totally fine in use. Even during our test that was perhaps as harsh a test as one could devise, nothing came loose, broke or developed problems otherwise. (Regular BQ readers know that this is not a given – we've had a considerable number of failures in our tests.) My comment was only about the fact that everything else about the bike was super-high end and custom, and the rack stood out a bit in that context.