Surly-Riv-rivalry?

[Grant Petersen]

We here are all fans of Surly and regularly (if not constantly) refer people to them, when ours are clearly out of range. I've often said, at least to myself, that a high compliment to any bike, even tho it doesn't sound  like a compliment, is that it's Not Dumb. Surlys are not dumb. That is huge in an age of manydumbikes. So many bikes, even and especially super costly ones (not just the cheap ones trying to look like the super costly ones) are dumb (of course by my standards, I'm not saying they're objectively stupid)--and Surlys are smart. They're still (good). They fit decent tires and racks and fenders.

But buying a bike isn't like buying a pen or a wallet. It has to fit, has to have the right parts on it for the riding and the weather and the weight.

Surly copy Riv? You know, early on I heard it from a reliable but not ironclad source that one of the early Surlys copied exactly the geometry of a Bstone RB-1...but that's not a RIV, and if I cared about that I wouldn't publish our geometries. If somebody thinks they're worth copying, please do! More smarter bikes will be out there in traffic then.

Years ago, the Gios Torino catalog was a crackup in that way. Every frame from 46 to 64 (those were the size) was listed as having parallel 75-deg seat and head tube angles. Why publish THAT?

In the '80s or '90s---what's a decade here or there?--the Eddy Merckx bikes geometries were almost complete, and I think even EVEN had the front-center measurement. But the head tube angle was listed as "proprietary." That was funny.

We had an interview with Dave Gray (Surlyguy) in an old RR. I've never had a bad experience there and have never heard any Riv employee denigrate Surly, ever---and it's  not because they have orders not to, it's because they like the bikes, as do I !

Surly has done a lot of good out there, continues to, and I can't speak for Surly people, but I can speak for me, and I'm sure all Rivpeople agree...and we are fans. The brands diverge at some point, but neither is dumb.

G

--
Grant
Rivendell Bicycle Works
www.rivbike.com
925 933 7304

[rcnute]

One of my favorite setups as seen in the RR was the "Riv'd" out Surly Pugsley...

Ryan

[dougP]

Not Dumb is good.  Sometimes we think too much about this stuff. 

dougP

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:15:32 PM UTC-8, grant wrote:

[Ron Mc]

thanks Grant, understandable, useful information, and fun to read, as always.  I still think the patch was dumb.  

[Phobos]

Then why do I have to keep breaking up fights between my Cross Check and my Sam? ;-)

[Christopher Chen]

That's why you need kickstands, man.

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:38 AM, Phobos <moo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Then why do I have to keep breaking up fights between my Cross Check and my Sam? ;-)

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I was the one who brought up the rivalry issue. I never thought that Riv/Surly employees had any axes to grind with each other (more like mutual respect), but that some of the participants in this group seemed to have unwarranted harsh views about Surly. As Grant said, Surly is one of the good guys for those of us who have a Riv-ish perspective on design.

I considered later that it gets dark here at 4:30 pm now and it was -6F at the time, so maybe I was moody and being a little too sensitive.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

PS My first Pugsley had cantilever brakes, albatross bars, bar-end shifters, and those blue Dia-Compe levers I bought from Riv.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

[Ron Mc]

and yet not a single one of those harsh views was parroted by any other participant on this forum - it was a silly thread about a dumb patch.  Apology accepted.  

[Frank]

Both brands (companies, philosophies, products) are loved in our family. I bought my first Rivendell product in 2000, my first bike in 2002 (63cm Romulus), and have basically kept everything in house with zero degradation in utility ever since. 

I bought my first Surly bike for my son (42cm LHT) on his 8th birthday, a bike which has since been passed down to his younger brother while the older one rides a 55cm CrossCheck. 

On Monday of this week my now 5' 4" all-legs 13 year old rode off to school on a 61cm Bleriot / Xtracycle, trumpet on one side, giant Duluth pack, locks, rain gear and whatnot on the other, with lights and reflecties everywhere. It's his now, which was always the plan. Remarkably, it fits him fine. He straddles the top tube with feet flat in PF Flyers, and set-up with a circe-'86 Suntour XC stem, bars, and shifters, the reach is perfect, upright and relaxed. He looks great on it, and he's proud to have it.

Anyway, Surly provided a great way for a kid who wanted to really ride to move into a quality bike at a fair "stretchable" price point at an early age. 6 years ago the options were really limited for kids or small adults, and to have a quality 42cm frame available was a big deal to me, and the price was value-justified. Making a market commitment like that is a hard thing to do for any company, and if the Rivendell design philosophy nudged Surly toward a "not-dumb" ethos, stretching the range of frame sizes to intersect with the '24 inch wheel kid-bike options was definitely a not-dumb move, and one that Surly, with their "not-lugs" approach was uniquely positioned to consider and execute. 

That LHT offered everything that an Atlantis did from a capability perspective, and though the "Rivendell kids bike" comes up on this forum every once in a while, making one would probably force a not-lugs exception to make it feasible, and selling them would be a not-profitable endeavor, or so I suspect.

We've enjoyed years of utility, transport, and just plain fun on Surly and Rivendell bikes. The brands intersect, but collectively they stretch the market in really meaningful ways. I have two kids who can work on their machines, lock them properly, carry everything they require, ride them safely and effectively on Seattle's streets, and who understand that bicycles are fun and useful. That makes me happy. 

-Frank

[Liesl]

Erin's Quickbeam and Surly LHT sleep together every night down in the basement.  There are no bike arguments down there; mostly I think I just hear giggling.

[Evan]

"We've enjoyed years of utility, transport, and just plain fun on Surly and Rivendell bikes. The brands intersect, but collectively they stretch the market in really meaningful ways. I have two kids who can work on their machines, lock them properly, carry everything they require, ride them safely and effectively on Seattle's streets, and who understand that bicycles are fun and useful. That makes me happy."

Wow, Frank. Well said! 

 

[Montclair BobbyB]

Wow, Frank, you're raised your kids well... Congratulations to you (and to them). BB

[jinxed]

You know Frank...if you ever want to adopt another kid...I'm generally pretty clean, mind my manners and don't eat much. ;)

I LOVE this post. It's such a good mode of fun to aspire to. My daughter has been biking with me in some form since she was born 6 years ago. If she continues the interest like your boys, I'll consider my parenting a success!