Sam Hillborne, Oregon Outback, Off-roading and the ?: 2 bikes or 2 sets of wheels?

[Mike S]

So I currently have my Sam Hillborne as my only bike, though I was considering adding a front suspension/disc-brake mountain bike to the stable. There's a deal for a Jamis 650B dragon pro on the interwebs now for $1400, but I'm thinking I could rather add a second set of very nice wheels with fatter tires instead. My main reason to do this is so that first of all, I can have a set of slicks and a set of studded tires in the winter, as I live in a very icy/snowy area and am bummed out by having just studded tank tires to ride in winter. Beyond that, I want to have a set of wheels with a 55mm-ish tire that can handle most gravel/firetrail/light singletrack in a ride like the Oregon Outback, as I am hoping to actually do that ride this summer. It would also just be nice to have this set of wheels that can handle more aggressive off-road riding to go explore different areas where I'm at (Eastern Washington).

So, I guess the question I pose to the group is: better to have a second, cheap-ish mountain bike or a second set of really nice wheels to maximize the All-Rounderness of a Hillborne? I've been thinking also about Jan Heine's opinion that a rigid all-road bike with fat tires is the "Porsche 911" of a gravel-orientated ride, and I want to stick with that plan. Also, what are some ideas about the best tire model to do this kind of riding? I think that 50-54mm with a moderately aggressive tread would be perfect, but I'm wondering if there is something better than the Smart Sam?

[Patrick Moore]

Can the Sam Hill take a 50 mm tire? Mine was (IIRC) a 2010 model, and I doubt it would fit a tire so wide. 

IF it takes such a width, my own, personal choice would be the Sam Hill. Though I disliked aspects of mine (sold it before I'd owned it 12 months because it was doggy-ish as a road bike), I think I'd keep one that could take 55 mm tires; indeed, I think I'd sell my Fargo to purchase a Sam Hill with 55 mm tires, even if the clearances around those 55s were minimal. An off road Sam Hill would be wonderful.

As for "moderately aggressive" tires in the 50 mm or so width: The Furious Fred is wonderfully light (360 grams on a Pelouze mail scale for the 622X50) and has enough tread to make a slight difference compared to slicks on loose dirt. But it has absolutely no resistance to thorns. I rectify this with Stan's, in a tubeless setup, and the combination is wonderful in goathead land. The Big Apple is much heavier, but a nice rolling tire withal considering (a) its bulk and (b) the effective puncture belt; and it withstands goatheads wonderfully* without recourse to sealant. (Caveat: I've used 559 and 622 60 mm Big Apples in the garden variety wire bead model and in the "Liteskin" model, no longer made.)

* "Withstands", vi, to wit: it won't keep a goathead thorn from penetrating after several pavement rotations; but I've rolled out from dirt excursions with literally scores of goatheads stuck to the tread, flicked them off, and ridden home without any air loss. IOW, the thorn has to work hard to get through the BA's puncture belt. And, the tire rolls surprisingly well compared to other belted tires, which are pure shite in that regard.

Patrick Moore, evading the ever-present, quasi-adverb "so", in ABQ, NM

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Mike S <mikesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

So I currently have my Sam Hillborne as my only bike, though I was considering adding a front suspension/disc-brake mountain bike to the stable. There's a deal for a Jamis 650B dragon pro on the interwebs now for $1400, but I'm thinking I could rather add a second set of very nice wheels with fatter tires instead. My main reason to do this is so that first of all, I can have a set of slicks and a set of studded tires in the winter, as I live in a very icy/snowy area and am bummed out by having just studded tank tires to ride in winter. Beyond that, I want to have a set of wheels with a 55mm-ish tire that can handle most gravel/firetrail/light singletrack in a ride like the Oregon Outback, as I am hoping to actually do that ride this summer. It would also just be nice to have this set of wheels that can handle more aggressive off-road riding to go explore different areas where I'm at (Eastern Washington).

So, I guess the question I pose to the group is: better to have a second, cheap-ish mountain bike or a second set of really nice wheels to maximize the All-Rounderness of a Hillborne? I've been thinking also about Jan Heine's opinion that a rigid all-road bike with fat tires is the "Porsche 911" of a gravel-orientated ride, and I want to stick with that plan. Also, what are some ideas about the best tire model to do this kind of riding? I think that 50-54mm with a moderately aggressive tread would be perfect, but I'm wondering if there is something better than the Smart Sam?

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[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing so.”

                                                                                    -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money. 

                                                                               -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying

[Chris Chen]

Interesting: I figured a tire like the new Cazadero would be just about perfect for most of the outback. I guess you'd need to walk a little but I don't figure that's too bad.

Of course I have a 650b x 55 truck so...

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Mike S <mikesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

So I currently have my Sam Hillborne as my only bike, though I was considering adding a front suspension/disc-brake mountain bike to the stable. There's a deal for a Jamis 650B dragon pro on the interwebs now for $1400, but I'm thinking I could rather add a second set of very nice wheels with fatter tires instead. My main reason to do this is so that first of all, I can have a set of slicks and a set of studded tires in the winter, as I live in a very icy/snowy area and am bummed out by having just studded tank tires to ride in winter. Beyond that, I want to have a set of wheels with a 55mm-ish tire that can handle most gravel/firetrail/light singletrack in a ride like the Oregon Outback, as I am hoping to actually do that ride this summer. It would also just be nice to have this set of wheels that can handle more aggressive off-road riding to go explore different areas where I'm at (Eastern Washington).

So, I guess the question I pose to the group is: better to have a second, cheap-ish mountain bike or a second set of really nice wheels to maximize the All-Rounderness of a Hillborne? I've been thinking also about Jan Heine's opinion that a rigid all-road bike with fat tires is the "Porsche 911" of a gravel-orientated ride, and I want to stick with that plan. Also, what are some ideas about the best tire model to do this kind of riding? I think that 50-54mm with a moderately aggressive tread would be perfect, but I'm wondering if there is something better than the Smart Sam?

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"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

[Aaron Young]

I've been riding an OG green Sam H. with Hetres on all sorts of stuff including single track (unloaded) with sharp rocks and have had no problems off road.  With Jan's recent showing on the OO I would be fine taking it as is on the OO.  However, I would consider packing light as that's what Jan did.  Also, I wouldn't be opposed to putting a stouter tire on.

If your fit is comfortable on your Sam H. and you really like riding it, I would recommend that over getting a different bike that you may or may not like as much.  Especially for a long ride where comfort is key.

As far as studded tires, I rode year round for 4 years in Rochester, NY which has much more snow the E. Washington and in the winter I never used studded tires.  My wheels were 27" so I put some small-studded cyclocross tires on for winter time (I searched for, but did not find studded tires in that size) and unless there was a literal sheet of ice it was just fine.  Even with studs you aren't guaranteed not crashing on ice.  The key is ride slow and be careful.  I do admit I fell twice during those 4 years, but never was injured.  Lucky, I guess.

Those Cazadero's look awesome though.  I may have to check them out.  Thanks, Chris.  Might be good for snow, too.  Sorry, I don't have other tire recommendations.  Good luck! Hope to see you on the Outback next year (I hope to go).

-Aaron Young

The Dalles, OR

[Eric Daume]

Unless you're absolutely jammed for space, two bikes is a lot more versatile than one, regardless of extra wheelsets.

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Mike S <mikesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

So I currently have my Sam Hillborne as my only bike, though I was considering adding a front suspension/disc-brake mountain bike to the stable. There's a deal for a Jamis 650B dragon pro on the interwebs now for $1400, but I'm thinking I could rather add a second set of very nice wheels with fatter tires instead. My main reason to do this is so that first of all, I can have a set of slicks and a set of studded tires in the winter, as I live in a very icy/snowy area and am bummed out by having just studded tank tires to ride in winter. Beyond that, I want to have a set of wheels with a 55mm-ish tire that can handle most gravel/firetrail/light singletrack in a ride like the Oregon Outback, as I am hoping to actually do that ride this summer. It would also just be nice to have this set of wheels that can handle more aggressive off-road riding to go explore different areas where I'm at (Eastern Washington).

So, I guess the question I pose to the group is: better to have a second, cheap-ish mountain bike or a second set of really nice wheels to maximize the All-Rounderness of a Hillborne? I've been thinking also about Jan Heine's opinion that a rigid all-road bike with fat tires is the "Porsche 911" of a gravel-orientated ride, and I want to stick with that plan. Also, what are some ideas about the best tire model to do this kind of riding? I think that 50-54mm with a moderately aggressive tread would be perfect, but I'm wondering if there is something better than the Smart Sam?

--

[Mike S]

I agree on the versatility of more than one bike, but the thing is, it takes about $4000 for me to get a bike that I like every single aspect of, like my Sam Hillborne ;) . The option I was looking at is a Jamis Dragon 650b, but I would rather stick with my Sam since it is so perfect in so many regards, the only apparent limitation being an upper limit of about 48mm without a fender. I wonder if the Furious Fred tubeless setup would work for me...

[Mike S]

FWIW, the Jamis Dragon 650B is a 21" on clearance from Jenson USA at $1400 for a complete bike, and a fancy new White Industries wheelset for my Sam would be ~ $800.

[Kurt Manley]

Panaracer firecross 700x45 

BG Rock and Road 

Soma Cazadero 

29x1.75 Smart Sam (If it ever becomes available again) 

Vee Rubber 12 

and Kenda Small block 8 are all good tire choices for your existing frame and plenty capable off road.

Have fun!

On Sunday, November 16, 2014 5:14:45 PM UTC-8, Mike S wrote:

[hsmitham]

Mike,

The question that comes to my mind regarding the OO is how do you want to ride it?

Fast like Jan Heine or taking your time and camping along the way? If you plan on riding in like under 30 hours than a 42 mm tire like the Grand Bois Hetre's would be sufficient with next to no load (as Aaron mentioned).

http://velodirt.com/the-oregon-outback-2014-in-aggregate/

If your not a speed demon and enjoy the pleasure of experiencing your natural surroundings and camping along the way than again the Hillborne should suffice with either the BG rocking roads in 700c and soon in 650b/43mm or the Soma Cazadero also in 700c & 650b.

Weight wise I know the Hillborne can carry a sufficient load so I see no need for a more dedicated MTB hardtail with front supension for the OO. The Jamis Dragon would also be excellent on the OO but not mandatory. If you plan on riding aggressive downhill single track than the Dragon will outshine the Sam.

I agree that two bikes are more versatile (as Eric mentioned ). I'm an advocate for n+1. Perhaps a fat tire bike would be worth acquiring with studded tires in the winter and those fat tires can come in handy in Sandy & muddy conditions that the Sam might not excel.

Anyway my .02.

-Hugh
Los Angeles, CA

[Mike Schiller]

If you read Jan's account of the OO in BQ you would find he says a roadish tire of ~50 mm would be the optimal tire for most of the dirt sections.  As you know, he is the  developer and sells the  Compass tire line (that he used) and therefore has a bit of bias towards those tires (understatement!).   The developers of the route have said many times that a 50 mm tire is recommended. Others that rode the entire route on Hetres have said they are a sub-optimal choice for the ride.    

The Hillborne with 44mm tires can certainly complete the ride. But, from all the accounts I have read, a wider tire would be better. Perhaps the 50mm Big Ben or my choice, the 2.1" Schwalbe Thunder Burt would make the ride more enjoyable. 

As far as your bike dilemma, I would buy a rigid bike that fits fatter tires  then some fancy wheelset.  Suspension forks are great for fast descending, but for dirt road touring a rigid fork with fat tires is a better choice. Lighter, less expensive and far easier to maintain.Perhaps a Salsa Fargo, Surly Ogre or a Hunqapillar would be better choices for this type of ride.  

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Anne Paulson]

In addition to what Mike says, I'd also point out that most people
can't pack as light as Jan did, because most people are going to want
to stop and sleep at some point, so they'll need to bring a sleeping
bag and probably some kind of shelter.

If you look at the pictures of the riders last year, you see plenty of
Surly and Salsa bikes. Not just Salsa Fargos and Surly Ogres, but
Surly Stragglers, Trolls, ECRs and Krampuses are represented, and I'm
pretty sure there was at least one Salsa El Mariachi.

Jan's choice was fine for Jan, but it would probably have been
seriously suboptimal for most other riders. The tires Jan sells are
great, but I don't think they are the best possible tires for most
riders for the Oregon Outback.

--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Chris Chen]

well then, ditch the fenders :)

sure it'll be messy but that might be part of the fun

[Mike S]

Yes, I appreciate all the input and my answer to the question of "how fast?" would be that speed isn't really my concern. My main goal is to push the Hillborne to the limits of what it is capable of and see how it fares, prior to dropping $2000+ on a new bike when 95% of what I'd want to do can be done with the Sam. The tire recommendations sound good, but I am wondering what the absolute "FAT MAX" limit of my 2012 Waterford-built 64cm Sam might be...

From what I've heard, it's possible that a 50mm can fit without fenders. If this is the case, I'm wondering if the Schwalbe 'Thunder Burt' would be a viable candidate, as a lot of folks rave about it in other forum posts I've read on O.O. Going with this as a tubeless tire on the Sam would seem like the best of all possible worlds, if the clearances are indeed do-able.

The Surly Ogre looks like a complete beast of a bike, and my 96cm PBH having self is very pleased that they offer it in XXL. If I were to go for a fat-ish bike, I think that would be the one. However, it is just about impossible at this point in time for me to add a steed to the stable (see: $$$).

[Mike S]

"Patrick Moore, evading the ever-present, quasi-adverb "so", in ABQ, NM"

You salty dog!

[Mike Schiller]

I've never seen a Sam that can fit actual 50 mm wide tires.  Certainly 45's.  BTW... the Thunder Burts measure out at 51 mm on 24mm wide rims.

As far as another bike... there is the used market.  I've seen used Fargos in the price range of that Jamis.

~mike

[Mike S]

Ahh, sad to see that my hopes for the Thunder Burts on Sam Hill are doomed. I was just looking around at Schwalbe tires and it seems like the 622-47 Mondial might be an ideal choice for my purpose. I think beefed out Ogre is in my future when I'm no longer enduring my vow of poverty (grad school), but this might be a good way to go for pushing the ruggedness limit on a Sam.

[Philip Williamson]

It sounds like your decision has been made. I'd probably make the same choice, and ride my Quickbeam with 40mm knobbies. I think volume trumps knobs, though.
As far as groovy bikes in large sizes go, the Singular Gryphon is nice. Rigid, drop bar bike, fits 2.4" tires. The XL is big.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Mike S]

I also ponder if the 622-50 (listed) Schwalbe Almotion will fit a Sam. I know their tires are usually ~2mm narrower than the label in that size range, and a helpful fellow at BB&H said that someone at RBW does run 50's on a Sam.

Then again, as our fallen brother Lance A. is reputed to have said: "it's not about the bike".

[Chris Chen]

Wait, I don't understand why you don't just try a pair. Yours is the 650B sam right?

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[Chris Chen]

Vee Rubber makes a 650B x 1.95 tire too. Cazadero is still my pick tho.

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[Mike S]

I'm on 700C wheels and they currently have studded tires entrenched for the duration. I also order my Schwalbe rubber from a German retailer, so it takes some commitment. The Cazaderos do sound great too, especially if I could keep my ultrawide Berthoud fenders on with them.

[Chris Chen]

Oh! In that case check out the Panaracer Fire XC

FIRE CROSS

Cyclo-crossr

The FireCross is based on the award winning Fire XC Pro tread. Designed and tweaked for wide clearance cross frames and all 29” applications. Super aggressive and confidence inspiring. Check your frame clearance to make sure it will fit you bicycle!

SIZES	BEAD	ETRO	TPI	WEIGHT
700 x 45c	*Ara|Stl	45-622	60|34	690|810g.

[Deacon Patrick]

I can compare my Quickbeam with 40mm Clements to my Hunqapillar with 2.1" rear/2.25" front Smart Sams on a wide variety of surfaces and situations. Perhaps these experiences will help you make a choice, though I have no experience with the Oregon Outback roads specifically.

Dry hard pack to semi loose gravel: Not much difference.

Muddy or Sandy: QB sinks quickly, Hunqa floats and tracks much better.

I've done rides on the QB where light and fast works fine, but when I've ridden them with more weight in the otherwise same conditions, I sank a lot more. A few pounds makes a surprising amount of difference in how much the tires sink. So while a few pounds is no big deal to ride on harder surfaces, it may be the difference between floating over the top and sucking into the mud/sand the point of LCG (lowest common gear, aka walking).

Based solely on my experiences above, I suspect Jan's experience would have been very difference were he loaded to camp (even lightly) vs his randonneuring approach.

Concluding thoughts: You say you are interested in pushing the limits of your Sam. It sounds like you may be right near them. If you can get true 45mm tires to fit, that may well be enough for a lighter load bikepacking approach. I do great with my large SaddleSack filled with my clothes and gear, and my tent, sleeping system, and pad strapped on top. All said, it only adds 15-20 pounds over my full day load (which has me ready for snow in the Rockies even in summer). You will likely have more LCG than those with lighter loads or wider tires, but LCG always works and is a good part of any bikepacking plan. Sounds like a grand adventure! 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

The Thunder Burt looks like a very nice off road tire -- Schwalbe claims 575 grams for the 2.25 29er size. I may have to try that one when my Furious Freds wear out -- the bigger knobs and greater width would be welcome in sand and for washboard. $92 each! But a close to perfect tire is worth the money, IMO.

The Furious Freds, OTOH, roll quite fast on pavement despite the vestigial knobs and are proving surprisingly durable for the minimalist tread.

[Mike S]

Well, based on my assumption that a Schwalbe Almotion 622-50 will actually be 48mm on a 23mm rim and that this can fit on my Sam, I think I'll go with this plan. Also, I re-read about my 60mm Berthoud fenders on Peter White's page and saw that he's found that 50 mm tires should fit no problem with these fenders! Randonneuring bike on steroids!

Now it's just getting up the gumption to actually do the ride...

[James Warren]

I just put some Big Ben 700 x 50's on my Hillborne, and they fit fine with no room for a fender. I don't have calipers so I don't know their actual size, but it is a great riding tire and certainly fits on the Sam. And this is a sidepull Sam.

-Jim W.

p.s. Man, the Sam is a great bike.

James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- 700x55

[C.J. Filip]

Mike, you proposed doing this route together with me.  Initial thought was, "of course I'll take the Saluki with 41mm Surly Knards."  Now, after reading the discussion, the Indy Fabulous Deluxe (Jamis Dragon-like minus front suspension) seems like the obvious choice shod with 50mm Michelin Country Dry tires.  

[hangtownmatt]

Jim,

Can you post some pictures showing the clearances?  If so, being a Hillborne owner myself, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Matt

[James Warren]

Matt,

I'll try to remember to get it on Flickr this evening.

[Chris Chen]

I must have some freak Hilsen, because even with the Babyshoe Pass 650b x 42 tires on there, on Aerohead/Dyad rims, I have gobs of clearance; Next summer I might take the fenders off and go Cazadero.

[James Warren]

Aha, thanks for the reminder Matt. As you'll see in the pictures, they fit, but it is tight in two places. I should apologize because in my message of November 18 I somewhat carelessly said "fit fine" without defining what "fine" means. I had put the wheels on and said, "hey they fit!" but I still haven't used the bike this way. As the photos will show, everything does fit, but there are some tight spots.

The tightest spot is between the rear tire and the fender hole that points downward from the brake bridge. The second tightest is between the front brake caliper and the top of the front tire.

Disclaimer: I haven't ridden it this way yet. I used to ride my Bridgestone with a similarly small margin between the front fork and the 26x2.35" tires. Was this foolish in any way? Anything dangerous? I would seek more advice from experienced envelope pushers before definitively claiming there is enough clearance. Is 1.5 mm enough?

Hopefully the photos would help one judge for oneself:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/46035786@N07/with/15831687195/

In any event, even if one didn't want to go for the Big Ben 50, a 45 mm tire on a Sam would probably be outstanding for dirt. Great bike.

Judge for yourself and ride safely!

-Jim W.

On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:09 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

[James Warren]

CORRECTION: Upon closer observation, I'm going to take back what I said below on November 18. With 700x50 Big Bens on a 62 cm Sam Hillborne, the clearance is a bit too tight for comfort in my opinion even though the tire does spin. However, based on the fact that the 700x50's come close to fitting, I would certainly consider trying some 700x45's on the bike for dirt riding.

Sorry for the confusion.

- Jim W.

[PaulS]

Hm, from the pictures, clearance seems ok to me. Especially as the tread starts wearing. Also, those with wider rims will be better off as the clearance at the fender mount will be greater. Unless you ride through mud regularly, I'd say that is fine.

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 11:21:16 PM UTC-7, James Warren wrote:
> CORRECTION: Upon closer observation, I'm going to take back what I said below on November 18. With 700x50 Big Bens on a 62 cm Sam Hillborne, the clearance is a bit too tight for comfort in my opinion even though the tire does spin. However, based on the fact that the 700x50's come close to fitting, I would certainly consider trying some 700x45's on the bike for dirt riding.
>
>
> Sorry for the confusion.
>
>
> - Jim W.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:16 PM, James Warren wrote:
>
>
>
> I just put some Big Ben 700 x 50's on my Hillborne, and they fit fine with no room for a fender. I don't have calipers so I don't know their actual size, but it is a great riding tire and certainly fits on the Sam. And this is a sidepull Sam.
>
>
> -Jim W.
>
>
> p.s. Man, the Sam is a great bike.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Mike S wrote:
>
> Well, based on my assumption that a Schwalbe Almotion 622-50 will actually be 48mm on a 23mm rim and that this can fit on my Sam, I think I'll go with this plan. Also, I re-read about my 60mm Berthoud fenders on Peter White's page and saw that he's found that 50 mm tires should fit no problem with these fenders! Randonneuring bike on steroids!
>
> Now it's just getting up the gumption to actually do the ride...
>
> On Monday, November 17, 2014 10:33:31 PM UTC-8, Christopher Chen wrote:
> Oh! In that case check out the Panaracer Fire XC
>
>
> FIRE CROSS
> Cyclo-crossr

> The FireCross is based on the award winning Fire XC Pro tread. Designed and tweaked for wide clearance cross frames and all 29” applications. Super aggressive and confidence inspiring. Check your frame clearance to make sure it will fit you bicycle!SIZESBEADETROTPIWEIGHT700 x 45c*Ara|Stl45-62260|34690|810g.

[hangtownmatt]

No worries Jim.   I'm actually surprised they fit as well as they do, but I agree that 45's are probably more realistic.  Riv's spec, I believe is 42, but I think they generally choose to error on the conservative side.  Thanks for posting the pictures.  I know this takes some effort and I want you to know I appreciate your taking the time!

Matt

[Mike S]

That seems like just enough space to me! I bet they measure 48mm wide with calipers, knowing that Schwalbe labels their tires larger than actual always. I'm psyched to get some Schwalbe touring fatties soon and will report! I've got a canti-mounted Sam, so may be different.

[Mike Schiller]

the side clearance seems OK. The 1+ mm at the brake bridge is too tight for me.  Your bike may have more or less room there.  There is some variation frame to frame.  I've seen the same model Riv have as much as 5 mm difference at the rear brake bridge. 

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Patrick Moore]

I recall fixing clearance on a beater Schwinn Tempo frame at the rear brake bridge with a hammer. It worked! Fixed gear, of course -- my first one, in fact. Wanted to fit a 26 mm tire.

(Don't tell Steve ...)

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/21/2014 01:00 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

I recall fixing clearance on a beater Schwinn Tempo frame at the rear brake bridge with a hammer. It worked! Fixed gear, of course -- my first one, in fact. Wanted to fit a 26 mm tire.

(Don't tell Steve ...)

Plate 1 of The Rake's Progress...

[Eric Norris]

Or, for fans of The Decemberists … The Rake’s Song:

http://youtu.be/srAjD6JBlOU 

—Eric N
campyo...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
www.wheelsnorth.org
Blog: http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @campyonlyguy

<1280px-William_Hogarth_021.jpg>

[Surlyprof]

Don't know if it is too late to post on this thread or not but this is a topic I've had very recent experience with.  I'm currently riding Schwalbe Mondial 40's with fenders on my new to me 56 Hillborne (the one with cantis).  I'm sure it would easily take 45's if I take off the fenders.  I seriously doubt I'd get 50's on there.  It would be tight.  The geometry charts for the 56 SH stated 45 as the max size.  I think that might be a good call.  The one thing I was surprised to find out was how much rim width mattered.  My rims are 24mm wide and all the Schwalbes measure almost actual size (Mondial 40 = 39.7 with calipers).  When I rode a Surly Cross Check with Schwalbe Marathon 42's, the rims were 20mm and the tires measured 38 or 39mm with calipers.  If I were to buy again, I'd be tempted to buy to sets of tires.  45 knobbies to run without fenders and 35 Supremes to run with for road adventures.  I may get a second set of wheels in the future to have the easier swapping capability.  If I can figure out a quick release for the SKS fenders, I'd be all set (If anyone has a solution, please pass it on).  In the meantime, I'm hanging on to my SOMA Groove and looking to put even fatter tires on that.  

John

[Chris Chen]

Two ideas:

1) Sheldon fender nuts make adding/removing fenders a breeze.

2) Why not try a 42mm knobby like the Cazadero? Or the 700x40C Clement MSO? Then you keep the coverage for mud &c.

Bonus: Are you running SKS P50 or P45? I'd say go P50 or P55 if you can.

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[Mike S]

Thanks for the insight, John. It seems that 45mm-max is the verdict for a Sam H.

If I wanted the ideal Rivendell for the O.O, it does seem like the Hunqapillar would be the bike, riding a 55mm touring tire like the Schwalbe Almotion. I am considering a used 62cm Hunqapillar as a possibility right now. It seems that my dream of having just one bike to truly "do it all" would lead to more compromises than I want. Having an always fendered, go-fastish Sam H. with 38mm Barlow Pass tires and a more beefy Hunqapillar with studs/fenders in the winter and 50+mm tires in the dry 7 months of the year here seems like a nice approach, but I'm still considering all of the possibilities.

[Mike Shaljian]

Call it heresy if you wish, but I think the Ultimate gravel and bikepacking bike may have actually arrived: http://www.jonesbikes.com/jones-plus-xt-bb7-build-complete-bicycle-pre-order/

I talk to Jeff for two hours about my riding, preferences and wishes for an all-terrain, all-use bike and this really seems like the best possible option. I'm thinking this fits all of the requirements that Jan Heine talked about in the Oregon Outback article from BQ. And fortunately, it is sized to fit giant people with 86cm PBH's. It really may be a bike with no compromises.

[Mike Shaljian]

***96cm PBH

And this model is sized at 63.5cm seat tube, very close to my 64cm Sam H.

[cyclotourist]

Hmmm, I'm guessing there's enough clearance on the regular diamond 29er to make it into a B+ bike: http://www.jonesbikes.com/steel-diamond-unicrown-bicycle/

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Mike Shaljian]

Oh and these are the tires I would be basing the bike on:

1) Schwalbe Super Moto 622-60
2) Schwalbe Marathon Winter 622-50
3) Surly Knard 3"

So gravel-grinding tours and general use, ice and snow, and mountain trails ready. Probably would have two wheelsets, with one go-fast and either ice or trail on the other. The ultimate Swiss-Army knife of a bike. Go fast, haul stuff, go off-road, go camping, whatever you want. Yes please!

[Scott Wolfe]

also late to the game and thought i would offer a few thoughts.

i rode the oregon outback route in late july on a borrowed hunq with wtb nanoraptor 2.1 tires at 30 psi. we did it at a moderate pace, finishing in two days. we encountered some dry, sandy sections on the route that i was thankful i had the fatter tires. my ride partner was on a custom breadwinner with 700x43 clement cyclocross tires and he was far more beat up at the end of the ride, plus he was pretty inconsistent in his comfort. he's a skilled gravel/dirt/road rider having completed dirty kanzaa, several oregon gravel routes, davis double, etc. and he was frustrated with his equipment in sections of the route. granted, we were there two months after the "official" event and much drier climate, but he admitted to wanting more tire he could safely run at lower/higher pressures as needed.

for me, i didn't know any better and loved the hunq with the nano's. sometimes ignorance is bliss.

cheers

scott
bend, or