Large Rando bag / rack / decaleur interface

[Michael Hechmer]

I posted this on the Lifestyles list but didn't get any feedback.

I use an Acorn Rondeneur bag on both my Saluki (62 CM/650B) with a VO rack but no decaleur and on our Tandem (26" ) with an RBW Mark's rack and no decaleur.  It works OK, but I am considering moving to a taller bag - 250 - 270mm, which would require a decaleur.  The VO website suggests that neither the rack nor decaleur are guaranteed to work with a tall bag.

What rack & decaleurs are people using happily with these tall bags?  What problems have you had to overcome?

Michael

[Steve Palincsar]

AFAIK the Berthoud GB28 and its fancier cousin, the GB2886 are the tallest bags out there.  I use both: the 2886 with Berthoud decaleurs, the GB28 with the VO decaleur.  Both work fine.  There's much more adjustability with the Berthoud decaleur, virtually none other than the location of the spacer in the stack on the steerer tube with the VO; presumably that's what the "not guaranteed to work" means.  There's also no adjustability to speak of with the Grand Bois decaleur.  You have to size the bag according to the amount of space provided between the rack and the handlebar (underside of the stem handlebar clamp bolt, actually, in the case of the Berthoud) or the head tube (more accurately, the spacer surrounding the steerer tube to which the VO decaleur mounts).

As for racks, nothing very critical there.  I'm using a TA rack that bolts to a Mafac Raid centerpull to support the GB28, and have used a Berthoud front rack, a VO Randonneur front rack and a custom Mitch Pryor front rack to support the GB2886.  You absolutely do need a rack, and it should have a "tombstone".   Here's a view of the GB2886 sitting on a Berthoud front rack, supported by a Berthoud decaleur, on my (now Tony's) green Saluki that illustrates the setup pretty well:

[Ron Mc]

11" tall Acorn rando with Bertaud decalur, but this is also with a very tall head tube and taller stem on a 64 cm frame.  

  

I think you could also make it work wiith a Nitto F-15 bag support on a smaller frame.  Michael, I sent you a pm trying to give you a Brooks saddle cover - did you receive it?  

[David Yu Greenblatt]

A big bike deserves a big bag. 

Here's my custom RuthWorks SF bag by Ely Rodriguez:

https://flic.kr/p/iJwL8X

It's larger than any stock Berthoud. It sits on a rack and is attached to the stem by a Grand Bois decaleur. As Steve P said, this decaleur is not adjustable. 

The large volume of the bag is great.

Ely makes beautiful bags. 

Here's one of his bags (sans decaleur) on a lovely Routens-esque Weigle:

https://flic.kr/p/nFwpPT

Ely's Flickr photos:

https://flic.kr/ps/sxuCr

- David G in San Diego

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks, Steve, Ron, & David.  The information is very useful.  I did not understand how adjustable the Bertoud decaleur was, vs the VO.  But the questions just seem to get more complicated instead of less.  I have the VO rack with the integrated receiver on the Saluki, but no darn decaleur!  It looks like the bag support would mate up perfectly with my current Acorn bag but may not with the taller Acorn bag.  Even if it did I wouldn't be able to use it on the tandem, which has about 300mm to the stack.  I could use the Bertoud on either but would need to buy two of the $85 decaleurs. Ouch.

Also taking the bag off and back on looks significantly more cumbersome on the Bertoud, and I do that a lot.  Am I wrong about that?

I don't like the buckles on the 2886 and I don't like the attachment strap on the 28.  The Acorn is a little smaller but I like the way all the pockets close.

Lots of choices, including just keeping the smaller rando bag and living with it.  Perhaps I should contact Acorn and find out the ht of the leather attachment point difference for the two bags.  If it does. it might be cheepers to get a  second VO rack.

The RuthWorks bag looks nice but without a web site its hard to know.

Michael

[Mike Schiller]

the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy peasy.  I think they are the best designed on the market.  

You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if you switch the same bag between two bikes.  I did that and it was cheaper than buying another decaleur assy.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[David Yu Greenblatt]

RuthWorks SF website:

http://ruthworkssf.blogspot.com/p/prices-and-ordering.html

 

 

 

 

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

[Ron Mc]

Michael, I think you need to consider the Bertaud decaleur a permanent part of one bike - you really can't easily move the bike side of the decaleur from bike to bike - the bolt that holds it on becomes the handlebar bolt in your stem.  .  

It's like you need one on each bike, but one you only need one total on a bag.  I would call the guys at Boulder and discuss your need - they are really good on the phone, and may be able to sell you two bike-side decaleur mounts with one bag-side mount...

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 02:39 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:
> Thanks, Steve, Ron, & David. The information is very useful. I did
> not understand how adjustable the Bertoud decaleur was, vs the VO.

Yes, the arms pivot through a range of at least several cm. on the
Berthoud; the other, "male on the bag, female on the bike" style once
installed has zero adjustment, and during installation has at best only
what's possible in the spacer stack (for the VO); the Nitto/Grand Bois
style has no vertical adjustment at all. Pretty much, you have to start
with the bike setup and size the height of the bag to fit the space
available.

> But the questions just seem to get more complicated instead of less.
> I have the VO rack with the integrated receiver on the Saluki, but no
> darn decaleur! It looks like the bag support would mate up perfectly
> with my current Acorn bag but may not with the taller Acorn bag. Even
> if it did I wouldn't be able to use it on the tandem, which has about
> 300mm to the stack. I could use the Bertoud on either but would need
> to buy two of the $85 decaleurs. Ouch.
> Also taking the bag off and back on looks significantly more
> cumbersome on the Bertoud, and I do that a lot. Am I wrong about that?

It definitely takes longer to remove the bag from the Berthoud decaleur:
you remove the "cotter pin" (I put that in quotes because I use a
Clippiola paper clip) and withdraw the rod, then remove the bag and
replace the rod. A little fiddly, but not really "cumbersome." It
takes less to remove the bag with the VO, Grand Bois and Nitto style
decaleurs... except that because the bag comes off more easily, you may
want to secure it with a small strap lest it bounce off on a
rough/washboard/rutted/potholed section (and that can become downright
dangerous if it falls in front of your wheel!) and then you have to
unstrap the strap as well as lift the bag off, so 6 of 1, half/dozen
t'other.

As has been pointed out, the part that attaches to the bike is a
permanent fixture, regardless of what style decaleur you use. The bag
and its half of the decaleur can move from bike to bike, and I do that.

>
> I don't like the buckles on the 2886 and I don't like the attachment
> strap on the 28.

Attachment strap? You mean the elastic cord? It's a very simple,
secure and popular method. Replacement elastic is available.

> The Acorn is a little smaller but I like the way all the pockets close.
>
> Lots of choices, including just keeping the smaller rando bag and
> living with it. Perhaps I should contact Acorn and find out the ht of
> the leather attachment point difference for the two bags. If it does.
> it might be cheepers to get a second VO rack.

Honestly, when you're talking about bags that run in the $300 range, the
price of a decaleur is really small potatoes and should be considered
"the cost of doing business."

>
> The RuthWorks bag looks nice but without a web site its hard to know.
>
>

There are several excellent US bag manufacturers now. It's nice to see
that happening.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
> the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy
> peasy. I think they are the best designed on the market.

The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the
tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and
that's a little bit fiddly. Then, also there's the matter if inserting
the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say,
like in my basement).

>
> You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if
> you switch the same bag between two bikes. I did that and it was
> cheaper than buying another decaleur assy.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/

Nice! Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud
decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts
rattling out. What would something like that cost?

[lukeheller]

I'm curious about this too as I'm about to start sewing my own bag and want a TALL bag... maybe 10 inches tall. I have always used VO decaleurs without issue but only on smaller bags.

The attraction of the VO decauleur is obviously the price... and the fact that I already them on 3 bikes. 

I have had success in making small adjustments to the VO decaleur by bending the angle of the arms but nothing drastic.

In looking at my current setup, I think I can get away with using the same decaleur but just move it to the top of the stack underneath the stem.. and then just bend the arms back up a bit

[Ron Mc]

I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread  - another use of acorn leather washers 

Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride.  I check tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor really had to tighten them again.  In addition to absorbing vibration, compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a better lock washer.  

[Ron Mc]

better view of the leather washers

[Joe Bunik]

Tangential q: is there a source for an additional set of Berthoud bag
hardware (i.e. just the tubes that mount to the bag)?

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

On 5/28/14, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/bulldog1935/Raleigh/700c/aP2050007.jpg>

>
> better view of the leather washers
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:06:25 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> I've shown this photo before, um, even on this thread - another use of
>> acorn leather washers
>>
>>

>> <http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/bulldog1935/Raleigh/700c/aP2050003.jpg>

>>
>> Before I put these on, I rattled out an M5 on the first ride. I check
>> tightness on these infrequently but have never lost another bolt, nor
>> really had to tighten them again. In addition to absorbing vibration,
>> compression of the leather washer squeezes the M5 thread, making it a
>> better lock washer.
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:45:50 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>> On 05/28/2014 02:52 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
>>> > the Berthoud decaleur comes off by just sliding the pin out. Easy
>>> > peasy. I think they are the best designed on the market.
>>>
>>> The tricky part is inserting the rod, because you have to line up the
>>> tubes on the bag with the tubes that are part of the decaleur, and
>>> that's a little bit fiddly. Then, also there's the matter if inserting
>>> the pin, which can be tricky if you are farsighted and it's dark (say,
>>> like in my basement).
>>>
>>> >
>>> > You could have a frame builder make up a fixed position upper mount if
>>> >
>>> > you switch the same bag between two bikes. I did that and it was
>>> > cheaper than buying another decaleur assy.
>>> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/6786437747/
>>>
>>> Nice! Although it totally eliminates the adjustability of the Berthoud
>>> decaleur, it also eliminates the possibility of the attachment bolts
>>> rattling out. What would something like that cost?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 04:17 PM, Joe Bunik wrote:

Tangential q: is there a source for an additional set of Berthoud bag
hardware (i.e. just the tubes that mount to the bag)?

I would write Gilles Berthoud if I were looking for that.  I wrote him once back in 2005 via the web form with a question and he replied right away.  http://www.gillesberthoud.fr/anglais/contact/index.php  for a web form. 

Back in 2005 his email was gilles....@wanadoo.fr or con...@gillesberthoud.fr

[Mike Schiller]

I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on rocky dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps do to the original alignment. 

The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes and bags.  This adaptor was designed and made for a specific combination.  But most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for a long time usually.

~mike

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 06:55 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
> I've never used a cotter pin. Stays put without on my bike , even on
> rocky dirt roads. Inserting the pin has always been very easy, perhaps
> do to the original alignment.

YMMV: I've lost the paper clip and had the rod start to back out on its
own. As for inserting the paper clip: it's easy if you can see it, not
so much if it's out of focus and you have to go by feel, especially for
the Clippiola paper clips I use.

>
> The adjustability of the Berthoud is so it can go on different bikes
> and bags. This adaptor was designed and made for a specific
> combination. But most of us who invest in a custom bike keep them for
> a long time usually.

No doubt. It's lovely. But it's not the sort of thing your average
frame builder would make, I'll bet. Who made yours, and what did it cost?

[Mike Schiller]

any compentant rackmaker can make something similar. Mine was made by this guy http://matthewscustomcycles.blogspot.com/

[Ron Mc]

I thought the cheap brass safety pin that came with the Bertaud decaleur was, well, cheap.  I'm sure I have the only Inconel 617 spring clip on a Bertaud decaleur

I borrowed a piece of wire from work.  I've mentioned before I repair antique fly reels, and make a lot of springs.  

[Ron Mc]

macro of the spring clip - it doesn't come out unless you want it out.  

[Oliver S.]

While you might be able to get the off-the-shelf options to work, it can be a fun project to make your own decaleur. 

There's a DIY decaleur flickr group at: https://www.flickr.com/groups/2215203@N24/  There are probably several others out there too.

Mine's here and supports a tall Ruthworks bag on a Nitto M12. It was cheap (~$15 in hardware) and isn't good looking, and I intended it to be a temporary solution that would be replaced by something nicer and made by a local builder, but it's worked for three years on some rough rides. I take the bag off pretty regularly using the wingnuts (the bag has a leather strap that goes over the rack tombstone and velcro to fasten to the base of the rack). 

Good luck!

-Oliver Smith

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:21:14 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2014 07:31 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
> any compentant rackmaker can make something similar. Mine was made by
> this guy http://matthewscustomcycles.blogspot.com/
>

I know of a couple of rack makers who were not frame builders, but they
both seem to have left the business. I also know of a couple of frame
builders who also build racks. In a totally invalid count based on
frame builders I'm aware of, that's 2 out of maybe 20, so perhaps 10% of
the frame builders build racks, and I believe with both the only way
they'll build you a rack is if a frame comes with it.

[justin...@gmail.com]

Or you could take the approach that Rob at Ocean Air did.
- Nitto "Lamp Holder"
- "Handlebar" straps wrapped around the lamp holder

-J

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks Rod.  Yea, I understand that one part gets mounted to the bike, but I don't see anyone selling that half separately.  That leaves me with the need to buy two decaleurs at $85 each.  Not impossible but a lot more than the $25 VO I was thinking about when I thought about a larger bag.  However the variability would solve all but one of my concerns - costs

The deluxe Bertoud bag has buckles on the small pockets, which I don't like.  The standard bag has loops, which are fine, and the Acorn has stainless turn knobs, which I really like.

Alas, in the last month I have been through two car tune ups, two tire changes, two brake jobs, two underbody shields, one wheel rotor, and one shattered moon roof - $1600  - one trip to Chincoteague and one trip to Kingston for the Canadian Tandem Rally, so the checkbook doesn't want a $250 bag and two $85 decaleurs as much as I do!

Michael

[Ron Mc]

gratuitous bag photos 

Versatility is wonderful.  The rando bag is great, and I pretty much wear it all winter for stuffing layers.  But in the summer, I usually have the small trunksack up front.  

Here's another idea for versatility.  

A Randi-Jo MUT bag will close around a 25-oz Laken thermos, which lets me haul 70 oz. liquid in somewhat trim fashion, and very helpful for long summer rides.  

I come by the bag affiction naturally - those are my fishing bags hanging behind the repair stand, Chapman, Brady, Frost River.  Always staged and ready, coldwater + guest bag, warmwater + guest bag, and kayak bag