Confused by Nitto

[Michael Hechmer]

Nitto seems to be intent on confusing people and making it hard to get  info on their product line.  A recent post noted that "campee" was a line of racks, which I found helpful because I have seen many different racks listed under that name.  Unfortunately the individual racks don't seem to have a first name!

I'm just as confused by the front rack offerings, which have alpha-numeric designations. The M12 is for cantis.  I understand that the Mark's Rack is also sold as an M1.  Ben's Cycle lists an M18, which looks just like the M1 but is $20 cheaper.  I think I remember seeing an M14 but not what it is.  What else lives out there?

I just sprang for the Honjo Hammered fenders to replace cream longboards on my Ram (didn't like the color combo or plastic in general.)  and thought I would replace the Mark's rack at the same time with a nice rack that has a fender mount underneath.  What are the best options for a front rack to work with CP or SP brakes?  The VO constructuer looks good and I love the Nitto Campee with the removable low riders on my tandem but don't need the low riders and $200+ feels like a lot to replace a small rack.  

Michael

[Garth]

  Michael, The Nitto M18 Ben's offers is not the same as the M1 .  It does not have the second set of struts for mounting. 

Here is the Nitto M14 http://sprockets.uk.com/nitto-m14-rear-bicycle-luggage-rack/

It differs from the Riv R14 in that it(M14) has extra hoop for bag support .

.....and not to be confused with the no longer sold Nitto 2 strut front rack , which is similar to the M14 but minus the side strap loops and plus the extra set of struts ! 

The Campee carrier line probably have some method to it's madness , but I've never pursued them enough to made sense of it !

It appears to me the confusion is much in the language translation and Nitto sells some different products in different markets worldwide. Plus they custom models for certain retailers .


As for wanting a front rack, specify exactly what you want it for , meaning what size and kind of bags .  This will determine the "best" rack for you.  The top racks of the VO are only 4" wide, narrower than the Nitto's.  Most racks are not dependent on brake type.

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks for the clue about the width.

The rack hold a large Bertoud bag.  

I see that the M18 has only one mounting point for the strut, but for a front bag that really is all you need.

Canti racks require an available drilled fork crown and often attach to the brakes, so those, like the M12 only work with canti brakes.

Michael

[Garth]

Fortunately Nitto offers redundancy for the small front racks all using the same size platform .  The M12 appears best for a specific purpose/fit, while the others are more much flexible in where to mount and at what angle .  The M1 rack is the most versatile of all , as for example, with my Bomba I prefer no connection to the middle fork crown , instead use the two on the top sides.  If I used the middle tang it would get in the way of the cable hanger as my hanger is very low . If your hanger is high then it doesn't matter.   I mount the 2 strut version the similarly on a another bike , but with 2 struts using p-clamps just under the canti mounts.



The Berthoud bags do not have straps on the bottom do they ?  This means they are meant to be used with a decaleur of some sorts to secure it. The platform size difference won't matter that much for a decaleur mounted bag. If Berthoud made provision for bottom straps you wouldn't need a decaleur , but as far as I've seen in researching them this is omitted for some perplexing reason .  Thus, they can be "improved upon" :)  !!

[Garth]

   I'm sure you must know of the VO front racks with decaleurs , it seems a good option if your don't have a bar mounted one.

[Ron Mc]

Nitto has a model number for everything.  Campee is the name of a line of heavy duty racks.  The confusion lies with Ben's listing, rather than Nitto's model designation.  

Nitto makes an M-12 and an M-13, which are the same front racks with different clearance.  The latter is tough to find, but there is one importer in the US.  

[Lungimsam]

Side pull bike front racks:

Marks Rack- double adjustable strut tabs, light mount tab in front. 4.4lb. Weight limit with one strut setup. ~6lbs. with two strut setup as told by RBW employee. No fender mount point. Strut tab mount to brake bolt direct requires no bending.

M18- one adjustable strut setup only. No light tab in front. Max weight capacity 17.6 lbs. according to NITTO no fender mount point. Strut tab mount to brake bolt direct requires no bending.

VO Randonner- one fixed strut setup. Fender mounting point. 4 light mounting eyelets. ~15lbs. Weight capacity as told by VO employee. Strut tab mount to brake bolt direct requires bending to arch it clear over side pull arms.

Soma champs elysses- not sure. See their site.

This was what I found to be available on the market for front side pull racks in fall of 2014. Not sure if anything else is available nowadays for sidepulls.

[Lungimsam]

Also there is a Berthoud sidepulls rack but I would not use one per Tony DeFillipos post about the design flaw that appears to be a safety hazard?

[Lungimsam]

Also see NITTOs own rack page for details:
http://nitto-tokyo.sakura.ne.jp/carrier-E.html

[David Banzer]

M12 and M13 are canti mounted racks, but are slightly different designs. The M13 has 2 versions based on clearance (https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/racks/compass-m-13-front-rack-cantilever-brakes/).
Nitto added 2 more similar racks, NF-21 & NF-22, for 26" & 27" wheels respectively (http://boulderbicycle.bike/Nitto-Racks-and-hardware/)
Certainly can get confusing.
David
Chicago

[Michael Hechmer]

If that's the official Nitto page, I rest my case.  Not much info and not even a full product line.  Looks like it was last updated in 2004!

Michael

[John Hawrylak]

I have the VO Pass Hunter Front Rack with Integrated Decaleur and have it mounted on my 1988 Panasonic Schwinn Voyageur (cantilevers, fork crown hole) and I use the VO champagne front bag with it and it's 'integrated decaleur'.

Here are my thoughts:

1  It barely fit on the studs and holes.  Had to open the arms a little to fit the studs and bend the fork crown rod very slightly. 

2  It is LEVEL, but if it isn't it would had to correct.

3  The bottom of rack is about 18mm (measured) above the fender (SKS on a 27" wheel).  I was hoping for rack to cloer to wheel.  A 700C whell and fender would increase the clearance even more.

4  It does not have a front enter mount for a light.  I have a B&M Eyc and still trying to mount it.

5  It looks nice and the price was reasonable.

6  The 'integrated decaleur' works well to easily remove and install the bag.

7  The BIGGEST PROBLEM is the 'integrated decaleur' does NOT have enough open tube length to allow the VO Campagne bag to "lift up" to it's max height of 20cm.  The tubes are about 15mm TOO SHORT.  I use a 13mm piece of the SS SKS fender strut rod, dropped into the tube to limit the downward travel of the 'integrated decaleur' pins,  This allows the bag to fully lifted up. The tubes need to be 15 mm longer.

I e-mailed VO, but got NO SATISFACTION, just questions about measuring the height of the tubes, and that batch may NOT have used the right length (they seem VERY WEAK on the QC, basically it's what the vendor gave them) and they do not appear to care.  It seems THEIR bag and rack should work to fully extend the bag.  Fortunately, there is adequate friction between the tube and the pins to restrict upward motion so the bag does not 'fly' up.

8  The 'integrated decaleur' does not allow the leather piece on the back to slide over the 'tombstone portion".  You have to leather strap they supply around the tombstone and thru the leather patch.

I think a Nitto Marks Rack with a Berthoud Decaleur du Sac for Quill Stem (GB91H, in my case with Nitto 225 mm Technomic (10 cm length & 23 cm stem CL to rack) would be a better option than the VO rack.  The Nitto struts allow the rack to be leveled at a lower height and the GB91H supports the VO bag at its max height extension.

I can supply photos if needed.

VO is OK, not very detailed.  You get what you pay for.  The VO rack carries the VO very good with a 13 mm pin dropped down the tube to limit the decaleur pin travel.  They could have easily fixed, but apparently choose no to bother (blissfully unaware).

I would avoid their frames, based on this experience.  VO talks the talk, but don't quite walk it.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ  

[Bill Lindsay]

Michael

It definitely can be frustrating if you long for a single webpage with all possible rack options.  I agree with your that it seems logical that somebody would dedicate a webpage to all possible Nitto offerings.  I haven't found one either.  American retailers all stock the subset that they want to stock.  Maybe one of them would PDF scan whatever catalog they are looking at and share it.  It would be nice. 

I think the main thrust of your OP was more tactical.  What should you do for a front rack solution?  I'll just offer this option.

When I put hammered Honjos on my 650B Rivendell with SP brakes, I elected to mount the fender to My Mark's rack with a Honjo L-Bracket fixed to the front tab.  That bolt fired through the L-bracket and the front lamp bracket.  The other thing I found when executing that project, is that I could not achieve the kind of clearances around Hetres that I wanted, so I moved to 38mm tires.  I bring it up because I know you don't like being frustrated by things, and I see a few additional opportunities for frustration.  They are:

1.  Dang it, it's hard to find info about all possible racks
2.  dang it, there's no front rack out there that works with sidepull brakes, and mid fork braze ons, and can be leveled close to the fender, and has a fender mount on it
3.  dang it, Honjos are hard to install
4.  dang it, my Honjos don't fit in my hetres

Anyway, I'm offering an option for number 2.  Here's my flickr album.  At least that would allow you to keep the great rack you already have.  Honjo Install

It's my opinion that the only rack option that would be superior to a Marks Rack on a 650B Rivendell would be a custom

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA 

[Michael Hechmer]

Well thank you Bill, and BTW, I will be in ElCerrito 10/21 - 11/6.  

I'm looking for a new rack for my Ram, which has 700 x 29 Compass tires.  The bike already has a Bertoud decaleur so I'm not looking for the "integrated" ones, which don't work with bags taller than 22 cm anyway.

I have VO fenders and the integrated decaleur on my Saluki.  I don't use the integration with an Acorn bag, but the rack and fenders seem fine.

I do have one of those L shaped fender brackets in my stash but never thought to use it on the M1.  I have to think about that.

Yes Honjo fenders are an effort to mount, but at least once you get it right they stay in place wonderfully.

Michael

[Mark Wilkins]

Michael:

I've long had the VO Randonneur front rack on my 60cm Ram (attached
with p-clamps), as well as the VO Constructeur on the rear. I've
always run Giles Berthoud SS fenders under them, attached at the
racks' fender mounts.

Functionally, I've never had a problem with the racks. The
finish/welds were never up to Nitto standards, to my eye. Of course,
I bought these many years ago (eight, maybe?). They may have improved
now.

These days, if I was buying VO again, I might lean toward the
Constructeur on the front. I'm less interested in using p-clamps than
I used to be, and there are no mid-fork eyelets on my Ram.

Mark

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[Evan Baird]

Nitto doesn't actually use any of the cutsie Rivendell names domestically.

[Lynne Fitz]

I have had excellent success attaching my front fender to my Mark's Rack.  The hardest part was figuring out which wine cork to use.

I used a long-enough bolt on the outermost bolt on the slidey part, drilled a hole through a wine cork, and then a hole in the proper part of the front fender.

Pictures:

https://flic.kr/p/xWjwK2

https://flic.kr/p/yAAemG

Bike is the Bleriot, repainted after reconstruction after the crash.  That really is a Mark's rack; I've just got a Platrack attached to it.

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 4:32:26 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[Lynne Fitz]

Oh, and Silver brakes.  Mark's Rack is a wonderful thing.

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 4:32:26 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

Sorry I missed the detail that this is for your Ram.

Bill

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/20/2015 10:37 AM, Lungimsam wrote:

Also there is a Berthoud sidepulls rack but I would not use one per Tony DeFillipos post about the design flaw that appears to be a safety hazard?

You know, I used that exact rack (not exactly the same, but the very rack) for thousands of miles without a problem.  The trouble with that rack was an installation failure.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

He's just a slow 650b Ram adopter :).

Toshi

[Ron Mc]

here's the Nitto catalog  

http://nitto-tokyo.sakura.ne.jp/No29-2015.pdf