Grant on tires

[Steven Frederick]

Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website description of a Conti tire:

"...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the bumps..."

Steve

[tdusky]

From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy, Riding on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work.

Tom Dusky

Huntington Woods, MI

[Aaron Young]

I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.

-Aaron Young

The Dalles, OR

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote:

I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.

Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding.  It's another example of 'horses for courses.'  When this thread began, I was tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating & comparing the Grant vs Jan approaches:

Grant


A-10


vs

Jan


U-2

(Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each type ever developed...)

[Steven Frederick]

I can certainly find either type of tire useful in some applications.  I just thought this was kind of a nifty summation of his preferences...

Steve

[Jim Bronson]

Another vote for the pure cycling joy of light, easy rolling tires.

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Ron Mc]

Weighting advantages and disadvantages is why tires are a such a personal choice, and nothing about tire choices can ever be made empirical.  

[Allan in Portland]

U2 superior to the SR71? Bah!

Though sorry you missed our Dalles Mtn 60 last weekend as the subject of those aircraft did come up. :)

-Allan

[Bill Gibson]

I'm just glad I can choose both! When I ride on pretty good to poor surfaces I can one, when I ride through cactus, goatheads, glass, and flint, I can choose the other. I can underbike, and I can overbike!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[Jan Heine]

Any airplane must be light enough to fly, and strong enough to survive turbulence. It's a fine balancing act, and it's the reason why Rene Herse's bikes are so amazing: He learned his craft building prototype aircraft, including the first plane to fly across the Atlantic the hard way – against the westerly winds. His vision has greatly influenced how I see bikes: Light enough to fly, but strong enough to survive turbulence. So we don't make "event" tires, but we also don't make "bullet-proof" tires you can ride even without air in them.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

[Jim Bronson]

You can't make something fly just by making it light.  While weight is certainly a critical parameter in determining performance as stated in payload/range and speed, no airplane needs to be "light enough to fly".  It needs to have enough lift from it's wings to overcome whatever weight it is trying to fly with, and enough thrust to propel the aircraft to a forward speed high enough where the wings produce the required lift, while overcoming aerodynamic drag.

You're in Seattle, just look down the road to Everett where they build the 777 and 747.  The max gross takeoff weight of a 747-8, the current production model, is nearly 1 million pounds.  The max gross takeoff weight of the heaviest current 777 model, the 777-300ER, is 766,000lbs.

Someone mentioned the U-2 earlier.  While a beautiful and graceful aircraft, the wing characteristics and the altitude it flies at cause it to have a very nasty "coffin corner" where the speeds available at cruise between mach buffet (overspeed) and stall speed are very small.  It's a good plane to look at but it's quite tricky to fly.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Tim McNamara]

Well, consider the rides they do (at least the ones they mention publicly). Jan does very long rides mostly on pavement and some gravel with an eye towards speed. Grant rides a lot of fire roads in the Bay Area hills. They will probably gravitate towards the tire choices that best suit their riding predilections.

I have not been in the Bay Area since 1981 and have never been to the Seattle area, so I don’t know what the road conditions are like. If the Bay Area roads are anything like the atrocious minefields that Minneapolis and St. Paul have become over the past 10-15 years and especially after this winter, stout tires are probably a good idea. The Twin Cities have both cut way back on road maintenance and repairs, going to a complaint-based rather than a proactive model (basically they have to get a certain number of phone calls about a pothole or other road problem before they go out to fix it). I’d probably shred a Grand Bois in one ride around here nowadays.

[Jim Bronson]

My opinion is that Jan is trying to optimize his tires for randonneuring, which is fine with me because that's the source of many of the miles that I put on my Rivendell.  I listened to Jan when I was running 700c and switched from Gatorskins to Grand Bois and I had never been happier.  Now on 650b and I agree with Jan's assessment of the 650b scene.

I have been using Pari-Motos but I am quite intrigued by the Compass Loup Loup pass, which is stated on Compass' website to have all the suppleness of the Pari-Moto but with slightly thicker rubber in the middle of the tire. 

OK, so Compass' website doesn't explicitly compare to the Pari-Moto, but the reference to the Pari-Moto is very thinly veiled in the Loup Loup description:  "The tread is 3 mm thick to last many miles, unlike thinner high-performance tires which are best treated as “event” tires.".  Previously, when Compass sold the Pari-Moto, they referred to it as an "event" tire.  I suppose the reader can draw his or her own conclusions from that ;)

Jim

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

Well, consider the rides they do (at least the ones they mention publicly).  Jan does very long rides mostly on pavement and some gravel with an eye towards speed.  Grant rides a lot of fire roads in the Bay Area hills.  They will probably gravitate towards the tire choices that best suit their riding predilections.

I have not been in the Bay Area since 1981 and have never been to the Seattle area, so I don't know what the road conditions are like.  If the Bay Area roads are anything like the atrocious minefields that Minneapolis and St. Paul have become over the past 10-15 years and especially after this winter, stout tires are probably a good idea.  The Twin Cities have both cut way back on road maintenance and repairs, going to a complaint-based rather than a proactive model (basically they have to get a certain number of phone calls about a pothole or other road problem before they go out to fix it).  I'd probably shred a Grand Bois in one ride around here nowadays.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Bill Gibson]

My Grand Bois tires sing around Phoenix, even on dirt. I don't ride my road bike on the trails of South Mountain, but the roads there are great. Just too short.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 9:27 AM, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

Well, consider the rides they do (at least the ones they mention publicly).  Jan does very long rides mostly on pavement and some gravel with an eye towards speed.  Grant rides a lot of fire roads in the Bay Area hills.  They will probably gravitate towards the tire choices that best suit their riding predilections.

I have not been in the Bay Area since 1981 and have never been to the Seattle area, so I don't know what the road conditions are like.  If the Bay Area roads are anything like the atrocious minefields that Minneapolis and St. Paul have become over the past 10-15 years and especially after this winter, stout tires are probably a good idea.  The Twin Cities have both cut way back on road maintenance and repairs, going to a complaint-based rather than a proactive model (basically they have to get a certain number of phone calls about a pothole or other road problem before they go out to fix it).  I'd probably shred a Grand Bois in one ride around here nowadays.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2014 12:39 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:
> My opinion is that Jan is trying to optimize his tires for
> randonneuring, which is fine with me because that's the source of many
> of the miles that I put on my Rivendell. I listened to Jan when I was
> running 700c and switched from Gatorskins to Grand Bois and I had
> never been happier. Now on 650b and I agree with Jan's assessment of
> the 650b scene.
>
> I have been using Pari-Motos but I am quite intrigued by the Compass
> Loup Loup pass, which is stated on Compass' website to have all the
> suppleness of the Pari-Moto but with slightly thicker rubber in the
> middle of the tire.
>
> OK, so Compass' website doesn't explicitly compare to the Pari-Moto,
> but the reference to the Pari-Moto is very thinly veiled in the Loup
> Loup description: "The tread is 3 mm thick to last many miles, unlike
> thinner high-performance tires which are best treated as “event”
> tires.". Previously, when Compass sold the Pari-Moto, they referred to
> it as an "event" tire. I suppose the reader can draw his or her own
> conclusions from that ;)

Kirk Pacenti himself referred to the Pari Moto as an "event tire."

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2014 12:25 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:
> You can't make something fly just by making it light. While weight is
> certainly a critical parameter in determining performance as stated in
> payload/range and speed, no airplane needs to be "light enough to
> fly". It needs to have enough lift from it's wings to overcome
> whatever weight it is trying to fly with, and enough thrust to propel
> the aircraft to a forward speed high enough where the wings produce
> the required lift, while overcoming aerodynamic drag.
>
> You're in Seattle, just look down the road to Everett where they build
> the 777 and 747. The max gross takeoff weight of a 747-8, the current
> production model, is nearly 1 million pounds. The max gross takeoff
> weight of the heaviest current 777 model, the 777-300ER, is 766,000lbs.
>
> Someone mentioned the U-2 earlier. While a beautiful and graceful
> aircraft, the wing characteristics and the altitude it flies at cause
> it to have a very nasty "coffin corner" where the speeds available at
> cruise between mach buffet (overspeed) and stall speed are very
> small. It's a good plane to look at but it's quite tricky to fly.

"Good" and "easy to fly" are not synonyms. The U2 has been in service
since 1957 and is in service today. Can there be better evidence that
it's good at its job?

[reynoldslugs]

Betty or Veronica? Ginger, or  Mary Anne?

It's good to have good choices - and I'm in the middle of the Grant/Jan spectrum.  I'm a Clydesdale and I ride on some rough roads.   I like fat tires but don't like changing flats, so my tire of choice in 700c is the Schwalbe Kojak.  Still trying to figure out the best 650b...

M

[Ron Mc]

I'd hate to pedal a Boeing 777

[Jan Heine]

On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:25:49 AM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:

You can't make something fly just by making it light. 

You are totally right. You cannot make a great tire just by making it light, either.

Aircraft design, especially in the early days before prodigious horsepower could lift even huge weights, was a careful balance of lightness and strength. On bicycles, we still live in that age, because we cannot increase the horsepower much. Even a professional racer puts out only little more than a single horsepower, and not for long!

Back to tires, there are many factors that have to be considered. We could make our tires lighter, but only at the expense of a greatly reduced longevity. We'd gain very little in speed, so to me, the trade-off was not worth it. The art lies in making the right compromises, and of course, everybody will value different compromises depending on how they ride. There is no "perfect" tire, but a variety of perfect tires optimized for different riding styles.

[Mike Williams]

Speaking of tires, I have to give a plug for the Cont. CX speed that Riv sells,  if you havnt ridden that tire,  you ought too.   Its pretty darn light ~ 420grams, and feels supple to me and SUPER grippy,  even has flat protection.   Unimprovable( made up word) for the kind of riding I enjoy!  -Mike

Sent from my iPhone

[Eric Norris]

Somebody please buy and try the new Compass tires. I'm interested, but I'd like to see how they perform. 

–Eric N

Sent from my iPhone 5S

[pb]

Jan:

[RJM]

I bought the 32mm 700c tire they have (forgot the name) but haven't had a chance to use it though. I bought some tubes when buying the tires too, but the valve stems are too short for my wheels. I am going to try them out on my Roadeo and am hopeful for a nice, fast, supple ride.

 

I will say that since I got the Roadeo and have made it my super "go fast" bike, I have turned the Sam into a Rivendell-like ride instead of the faster road bike I had it as. The first thing I did was change tires to some Fatty Rumpkins. I had issues with flats the last two years while riding it with Pari Motos and Hutchinson 32s; the Fatty Rumpkins will probably help with flats, especially now that I am going to ride longer and farther on dirt trails with it.

 

I like the lighter tires when road riding, especially when I do it with the bike club...so the Roadeo gets those. When out commuting and playing in less than perfect tarmac/dirt, I want something with more protection and has more bullet-proofness to it.

[Ryan]

Yes, In Winnipeg our roads look like the craters of the moon. I feel your pain, Tim. So...sturdy tires like the Paselas I've been using work for me

[Mike Schiller]

I ride some pretty rough singletrack and dirt roads on Grand Bois Hetres and they work great.  The wider tires at lower pressures seem to be much less flat prone. I didn't have such good luck with the 32 mm Cypres tires.

And if you want to see Jan on some rough roads with Hetres, just have a peek at the latest issue of BQ.

So for me, I'll take an occasional flat over dead feeling tires any day of the week.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Peter Morgano]

This conversation makes me think more and more of going to tubeless hetres but I don't think the rims (synergies) are up to the task.

--

[HunqRider]

I recently learned about the new Jan's new Compass tires, and I bought the 700x38c Barlow Pass version, with the extra-light sidewalls.  Only had a chance to ride them once so far, but it felt like an improvement over my old 700x40c Schwalbe Marathon Duremes.  They felt like they would "spin-up" from a dead stop a lot faster, which makes sense since I think the weight savings is about 100g per tire; much less rotating mass.  At full speed they were fine, didn't get any flats, even when I rode right through a pile of broken glass shards (couldn't avoid it).  I ran them at 60 psi on my Velocity Synergy rims, and this lower PSI probably helped with avoiding punctures (I used to run the Duremes at 70-80 psi).  Gotta get more riding time with them, but so far I'm a fan.  The all-black look of the tires is sweet too.

[RJM]

Yes, and also, Grant and the crew at riv seem to be more into bike touring, or at least loading the bike with heavy stuff if needed. I would imagine a bike set up for doing s24o's at Mt. Diablo will need different and sturdier tires than a bike set up for randonneuring.

 

Just look at some pictures of the riv folk riding their bikes and compare them to Jan and his buddies riding....two different tasks and they require different tires.

 

On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:36:06 AM UTC-5, AaronY wrote:

[Evan Baird]

There is a reason the Fatty Rumpkin forcefield tires are made as burly as they make them.

[ted]

way off topic but,

the SR71 was developed after the U2 and removed from service before it so yea the U2 is arguably superior to its shorter lived progeny.

[Bill Lindsay]

I want to play!

Grant?

Jan?

The rivbike.com page that will annoy the "supple-philes" is this one:  http://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=90

The quote that will get you is "Forget thin sidewalls"

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2014 05:38 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I want to play!

Grant?

If not, then surely it must be one of the list members who were so wrapped up in the coffee grinder for use while camping discussion a couple of weeks ago.  This rig probably has one of those full-bore $3000 espresso machines included.

[Coconutbill]

I'm glad there's so many tire choices in 650b... 

 

I had been riding B-lines but recently switched to an ultra-economical pair of TourRides... no flats in months! 

Granted, I think the TourRides may be less responsive than ultra-light supple tires, but  I see these as two distinctly different tires for distinct purposes. For the longest time my A.H.H. was my only bicycle, and vehicle. In my case, the harder Continental tires have been a godsend when carrying groceries and riding offroad.

[Scott G.]

Moderation in all things,

Schwalbe Ultremo 28mm, not as fragile as a GB, but not a flying tank.

[Philip Williamson]

That's a beautiful and apt metaphor.

[Rod Holland]

In case no one has pointed it out, tire with a wire bead and robust sidewalls also make better hula hoops...

rod

[Matt Lynch]

I purchased a Sam Hillborne after an extended test ride at RBW.  I've put close to 7,000 miles on my bike and have yet to duplicate the ride I experienced on their test bike.  I've always had in the back of my mind the problem was that I bought a Taiwanese model whereas, unbeknownst to me, I test rode a Waterford built Sam.  But there's no way RBW would pull a bait and switch like that...and that's assuming there even is a difference.  So reading this thread I'm thinking it could be the tires.  I'm still trying to wear out my original Schwalbe Supremes so I don't have anything else to compare.  The demo bike I rode had those RBW tires with the checker board tread.  Could there really be that much difference?  And if so, are Jan's recommendations that much sweeter?

Don't get me wrong.  I've hardly ridden my other bikes at all since getting the Hillborne.  I am a happy camper.  But I also have to accept the fact that I'm am a person who lives in the camp of high value and durability.  So when it comes right down to it, I'm just trying to figure out if I may just be my own worst enemy when it comes to tires.

Matt

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Tubeless Hetres ride beautifully. I wouldn't try it on Synergy rims though. Try it with Stan's rims on a disc brake bike.

[Evan]

Matt Lynch:  I, too, wonder if I'm missing something by not running Compass or Grand Bois tires--or at least Jack Browns with their checkerboard tread. But last year when I bought my Sam from Rivendell, I got Little Big Bens to go with it. I love the bike and I like the tires, too, and at the rate they wear and with the distances I ride, it'll be years before I even think about a new tire purchase.

Evan E.

SF, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

Matt, how much money would it cost to buy a pair of the best tires
available and try them? $120?

[justin...@gmail.com]

I would say without reservation that swapping tires from Schwalbe to anything else - Panaracer, Soma. gran Bois - will get you closer to that mythical Riv-ride.

-j

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Interesting. I too have Supremes on my Sam Hillborne. I had Marathon Pluses on my last bike, so I'm pretty happy with them. I can't be messing with flats on my way to work so the Supremes are staying on for a while.

[Deacon Patrick]

Matt,

Can't hurt to try new tires, except put a wee dent in your wallet! I was astonished how big a difference in trail and died road riding there was between the 50mm Dureeme and the 2.25" Smart Sams, so while that is obviously a different type of riding, yes, the tire can make a huge difference.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Tim]

I will preface this post by saying that I tend to not have the most nuanced tastes with anything, i.e. wine, food, cars. But I have 3 Rivendells. Homer, Hunqa and Roadeo. I by far put the most miles on my Homer, which I've had for 3 years now. I've mostly run Riv tires, although I had Schwalbe Marathon Racer 28s when I got it. They were the first tires wider than 23s I had used. Contrary to everything I've read, I rarely had flats on my old, too small, stiff, go-fast Cannondale, and before that a go-fast Raleigh, but once I went to the wider Schwalbes on the Homer, I had flat after flat. I was careful about mounting and air pressure, and I was putting in lots of miles training for a cross country, Southern Tier ride. It was really frustrating. I'll bet that season I had close to 20 flats. I switched to Roly Polys later that year and had fewer flats, but still much more than the old 23s pumped to 110psi. I've mostly ridden Jack Browns since. With all these tires I have never felt that I was faster or smoother than any other tire. The biggest difference in comfort to me has been higher volume, lower pressure, which has had me leaning more toward Grant's tire philosophy. Las spring I bought a set of Gran Bois Extra Legers, the light, supple tire, after reading Jan's blog. Again, I didn't feel like I was riding any faster, and the Jan's recommendation is to go with a bit higher pressure due to the suppleness of the sidewalls, and thus the ride was not as cushy as the Jack Brown's. I have to add that I had put on a lot of weight, nearly 40 lbs, to around 240, so I can't imagine feeling fast on any tire. But I had flat issues and after not all that many miles the tan sidewalls began to show threads. I came to the conclusion that Jan was not wrong, but that I was too heavy for such a supple tire. Now this year I've lost weight and to encourage me have set a goal to ride brevets again. I continue to read Jan's blog and want to try his new line of Compass tires. I've ordered the Stampede Pass 32s to replace my current Jack Browns. I didn't get the extra light version this time. If Jan is right, and I tend to think he is, then the decrease in rolling resistence over the course of a 200, 300 or 400km brevet should result in less riding time, or less energy expended, or both. If it results in more flats, though, I have to wonder if there is really a net gain. The tires should be here next week and I'm looking forward to using them on training rides leading up to the May 7th, 200km brevet.

[ted]

Mat,
I doubt that you could tell any difference in the ride of an Asian Sam and a Wisconsin one. Please put yourself at ease over that.
Tires can make quite a difference. Pressure, width and construction all make a difference. Sometimes the tires on test bikes at RBW are at very low pressure, you might try reducing the amount of air you put in your tires. If the tires you rode on the test bike were Jack Browns there are two versions of that tire, one with and one without an anti puncture layer. The lighter version of the Jack Brown, and the heavier version of the similar width tire from Compas Bikes may ride similarly.
I have ridden the same bike with both 45mm Schwalbe fatties and 32mm Grand Boise Cypres tires. They give very different rides. I have another bike with the lighter Jack Browns on it. Being a different bike (and with larger wheels) it's harder to draw comparisons but I think the lighter Jack Browns and the normal Cypres are similar.
The best way to decide what's best for you is to ride the various tires yourself. Of course that may be more trouble and/or cost than its worth to you.

[ted]

152 plus shipping

[ted]

Though if the guys myth was formed by riding a Sam with little Ben schwalbes at 30psi you might be wrong.

[Michael]

You can buy from Compass with confidence.

I have had nothing but excellent customer service from them, and they are delightful to do business with.

[Matt Lynch]

I primarily commute an average of 150 miles a week year round in the Pacific Northwest.  On cold winter mornings at 5:00 AM the last thing I want is a flat. At first I was disappointed with the Schwalbe Supremes because I had four flats in the first couple thousand miles.  Than, after reading several threads about lower tire pressures I decided to experiment.  I stopped pumping them up to 80 psi and started pumping them up to only 50-60 psi.  Sometimes I went as low as 40 psi.  I haven't had a flat in 4,000+ miles! (knock-on-wood) and ride quality has improved.

I would like to try a livelier tire though.  Taking the advice on this thread into consideration, I will probably talk myself into a set of winter and summer tires.  And maybe I will do just that :>) 

Matt

[Philip Williamson]

I think tires can make a big difference, and could easily bridge that gap between "good" and "great."

I put Marathon Supremes on a bike, after running 700x60 Big Apples, and the Marathons felt doggier. Plus I was measurably slower against my friends, and up timed climbs. I just switched them for 29x2.1 Vee Rubber mini-knobbies, and they are much faster, both in feel and empirically.
Tubeless setups, same bike, same rims, same gearing, different performance. The only other change was wider bars, but I don't climb out of the saddle on a geared bike on the pavement.

I would love to try Supermoto tires, and I'd put the BAs back on a bike, but I'm unlikely to ever use those Marathons again. They really did make me disappointed in the bike I'd bought.

Big Apples on frame 1: reasonably fast with the lunchtime roadies. Single Marathon Supreme on the back, noticeably slower. Frame 2 with both tires Marathon Supremes, rear tubeless: slower yet. The Marathons did well in the dirt, though, which was unexpected. Frame 2 with Vee Rubber knobbies, both tubeless: superfun, way faster. I was now towing or dropping riders who had been towing me. 20 seconds faster up the 1 mile climb than my previous fastest, which was set on my Quickbeam, 84" gear, C-lines.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Matthew J]

I switched from Schwalbe Supremes to Grand Bois.  The ride difference is immediately and profoundly obvious.  

I fully understand that some people ride in conditions where flat protection is more important than other considerations.  With Schwalbe that protection comes with a big loss of riding pleasure.

Of the Schwlabes I've ridden, the Kojaks provide the best combination of smooth ride and flat protection.  Even the Kojak does not come close to the Grand Bois Extra Leger.

[Tim Gavin]

I like this game.  I ride fast and heavy, just like the aircraft I flew for 5 years--the B-1B.  I love the ride of 700c 26mm Cerf Blue tires on my Gofast Giordana, and I love the ride of the 650b 38mm Lierre tires on my Riv Road.

--

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

84 inches? You're a beast!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
****************************************************

To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this message was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.
****************************************************
****************************************************

This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any email) and any printout thereof.

Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
****************************************************
==============================================================================

[JL]

I would just like to point something out, for the sake of the archive. While this is a positive thread with all participants having a fun discussion about tires, there is something odd about having a thread called "X on Y" when X is not part of the thread. We all get it, and no one is being bad, or mean, or misrepresenting the ideas. Thankfully this also isn't a tire debate, nor an us vs. them thread. Let's change the name: Tires in the Goldilocks zone?

[JL]

I bet Riv will stock the new Soma Grand Randonneur tires. I could see the brown sidewall enforced model being a big hit with them. They look like they could be a road slick cousin to the FFFR. I think that tire in particular seems like a gateway into either more supple tire options, or more stout tire options, depending.

Jason
sf,ca

[sameness]

I thought the Big Ben was their "favorite tire of all time... obviously the (p)erfect tire... why do we even sell anything else?"

So: Big, nominally knobby, fairly heavy (though not as heavy as they could be with Kevlar), and/but without as much flat or sidewall protection as, say... the Marathon.

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Jason Leach]

I don't think they will stock the GR is a way to have a better tire. From a retail perspective it makes sense to try new things, rotate stock, and offer additional products to compliment existing ones. Rivendell has an existing business relationship with Soma.  To my knowledge RBW has never sold Gran Bois or Compass tires but they have sold Pari Motos and Soma 650b, in addition to their own 650bx33mm tires. There is precedence to them stocking a road tire in 650b. It ill be interesting to see what effect having a "mostly roads" tire with the same general dimensions and the GB Hetre will have on the tire preferences of their customers. It has been my observation that there are a few big reservations to trying more supple tires (this is patterned on the assumption that RBW customers {in total, not just the subset that read this group} hold a preference toward "strong" tires). My assertion is that the "strong" GR tire could nudge new people into trying a very supply tire - one that they may very well like.  It may also move people in the direction of more robust tires options if they currently prefer the other end of the spectrum.  I would imagine that having a second wheelset equipped with the new Soma GR "strong" version would be keen for a bike equipped with Hetres (or Compass Babyshoe Pass) and fenders. 

*I don't mean to infer that supple tires are not strong, some brands are in fact very well constructed and last for many miles.  I opted for the word strong because it allowed for a positive description of tires with a reinforced sidewall, all black construction, and thick tread with puncture prevention considerations.

Jason

SF,CA

[Eric Platt]

Well, glad to know there are some others out there that aren't overly pleased with the Marathon Supreme.  Have used both the 700x40 and the 26"x50 versions. In both sets found the ride to be slow.  LIke they are sticking to the ground.  Have always written it off as my excess weight.  Might have to slightly re-think this.  But it still is partly due to the weight, no doubt.

Looking in the garage, it's obvious my go-to tires are more heavy duty.  Mondials, Dureme, and Baby Bens.  Want to try some others, but as my neighbors point out, my garage already looks like a bike shop.  Need to wear out a few sets first.  Then again, the new Barlow Pass might be an excellent fit on the Hillborne.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Patrick Moore]

Late to the party but I'll play. I just bought a used, lower middle class mountain bike (DB "Outlook", 7 speed Shimano megarange fw) for my daughter. One reason for the choice (beside fit and feel -- she liked it) were the wide tires with mildish knobs. I took advantage of her ignorance to have the tires undergo Stevie's patented "Stickem witha Knife (tm)" thorn proofing (Thornproof tubes, Slime, liner, yuck, yuck, yuck) -- well, better that she ride a concrete tire than get flats.

Anyway, I got the bike home to make a few adjustments, one of which was to reduce tire pressure from what felt to my educated thumb to be about 120 psi. It was funny: Let out a lot of air (I ride such tires at 30 or lower); felt hard. Let out more; felt hard. Let out MORE; felt hard. Finally, as the stream of air was fizzling out, I was able to indent the tires with a massive squeeze. I suppose you could remove all the air and still have enough bulk inside to provide adequate tire lift.

If she takes to cycling more than she has done in the last year, I'll upgrade to some better wheels and tires and tubes and sealant, but these are indubitably, no matter what else they are, thorn PROOF.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:05 PM, Rod Holland <rholla...@gmail.com> wrote:

In case no one has pointed it out, tire with a wire bead and robust sidewalls also make better hula hoops...

rod

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Albuquerque, NM, USA

 

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

[Patrick Moore]

+1 for the Kojaks, at least the 559X32s. They aren't proof against thorns, but they do pretty well for the way they roll.

The Big Apples (I used 3 pairs of the 60s) were as close as anything to thorn PROOF without special tubes or sealant, yet they rolled pretty damn' good for all their bulk.

OTOH, no flats at all for almost 700 miles on the Stan's-ified Parigi Roubaix or in some 50 miles (so far, on goathead dirt) the almost-as-light, Stan's-ified and tubeless Schwalbe Furious Freds.

I have to say that Schwalbe does make some very nice tires.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Z]

Peter,

If you're looking for better flat protection w/Hetres, try squirting an ounce or two of Stan's sealant into your tubes.  You'll need tubes that have removable valve cores (like Q-tubes).  I used to patch a flat after even the shortest jaunt around town, but since Patrick Moore showed me the way, I just flick the goatheads off of my Hetres or Quasi-motos and keep riding.

Sorry if this is old news...

Zach in Moab


On Friday, March 14, 2014 1:53:10 PM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

This conversation makes me think more and more of going to tubeless hetres but I don't think the rims (synergies) are up to the task.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Mike Schiller <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

I ride some pretty rough singletrack and dirt roads on Grand Bois Hetres and they work great.  The wider tires at lower pressures seem to be much less flat prone. I didn't have such good luck with the 32 mm Cypres tires.

And if you want to see Jan on some rough roads with Hetres, just have a peek at the latest issue of BQ.

So for me, I'll take an occasional flat over dead feeling tires any day of the week.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:27:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:

Well, consider the rides they do (at least the ones they mention publicly).  Jan does very long rides mostly on pavement and some gravel with an eye towards speed.  Grant rides a lot of fire roads in the Bay Area hills.  They will probably gravitate towards the tire choices that best suit their riding predilections.

I have not been in the Bay Area since 1981 and have never been to the Seattle area, so I don’t know what the road conditions are like.  If the Bay Area roads are anything like the atrocious minefields that Minneapolis and St. Paul have become over the past 10-15 years and especially after this winter, stout tires are probably a good idea.  The Twin Cities have both cut way back on road maintenance and repairs, going to a complaint-based rather than a proactive model (basically they have to get a certain number of phone calls about a pothole or other road problem before they go out to fix it).  I’d probably shred a Grand Bois in one ride around here nowadays.

[Matthew J]

Patrick and Z - Agreed.  If you want flat protection and good ride, Stan's is definitely worth considering. 

[Ron Mc]

Patrick, my buddy and I were rolling Saturday in mixed wet/dry pavement on macadam to polymer-reinforced concrete.  (It was a great fender ride.)  My Strada Biancas consistently out rolled his Marathon Supremes.  We were intentionally going slow over the wet, but literally half the time he was pedaling, I was coasting or even braking.  

[Patrick Moore]

Ron -- Any idea how similar the SBs are to the Parigi Roubaix?

Speaking of slower rolling, I just learned something. My daughter's new used MTB came with heavy knobbies+thorn proof tube+liner+Slime tire combos pumped rock hard. I let out air until I could flex the tire with a firm squeeze; but discovered that, at modestly lower pressures, the drag from this combination is remarkably high. I guess that is why the bike shop pumps such combos up so high. I daresay that you could remove all the air and still have the tire combo support the rider.

On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

Patrick, my buddy and I were rolling Saturday in mixed wet/dry pavement on macadam to polymer-reinforced concrete.  (It was a great fender ride.)  My Strada Biancas consistently out rolled his Marathon Supremes.  We were intentionally going slow over the wet, but literally half the time he was pedaling, I was coasting or even braking.  

[Ron Mc]

Patrick, the air volume difference between the Parigis and Biancas is noteworthy.  They have the same tread pattern, and the Biancas have an extra puncture layer, making them only 80g heavier.  The Bianca sidewalls feel a bit thinner.  Even though they rate the Biancas as 30mm, they measure 33 on my Synergy rims.  I moved the Parigis to my daughter's load-hauler, and she can ride them at 65 psi (she likes the speed and the ride), but I couldn't ride them below 90.  I can ride the Biancas at 55 psi rear and 50 psi front (all 215 pounds of me).  They feel super elastic, absorb everything, and still ride fast - if I bump to 70/60 for dry pavement, they're every bit as fast as the Parigis.  They completely fill my 43mm fenders.  

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Ron; they sound ideal for the Ram (mostly errand riding but I want my errand bike to feel fast) when the PRs wear out. I know that the PRs felt faster than the earlier 35 mm Kojaks but of course were deadly for goatheads without sealant. Perhaps the SBs will split the difference.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Philip Williamson]

I weigh 240 lbs as well (more, recently), and have plenty of flats on fatter tires, too. I do feel fast on the Vee Rubber "Flying V" and the Soma C-Lines. Flying Vs are tubeless, the C-Lines have tire savers (wire thornflickers). I got a flat in a C-line as soon as I changed gears (fixed) and didn't re-adjust the tire saver to graze the tire. 

One set of tires starts leaking as soon as the pressure hits 60lbs. I think there's a wire in the tread that isn't exposed to the tube until the pressure expands everything. 

So I think some of the "fewer flats" benefits of wider tires are reserved for lighter riders.

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Jim Bronson]

I agree with you Philip.  I weigh 270 and I get lots of flats on wider tires, including 5 flats on this last weekend's Houston Randonneurs 600K.

Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats seems even more skewed than normal. 

I also replaced the tire after flat #3, and I still got 2 more flats.  If I would have had a rock hard tire like a Continental Gatorskin that would have been more flat resistant, I would have put it on after the 5th flat.  I had no more spare tubes after that and I am not particularly good at patching tubes.

Let's just say it was quite an interesting ride.  At the 315 mile mark, I got to the control with 3 minutes to spare.  Thankfully, I was able to make up some of the time between there and the end thanks to a very strong tailwind.

Some of the other things that the ride featured was pulling off the road multiple times for a race to let the various pelotons go by, riding on the shoulder of a freeway, cows that chose to run alongside the fence as we rode, wading over flooded water crossings (not recommended!), the passage of a cold front, nearly perpendicular wind and rain, and the aforementioned arrival with 3 minutes to spare a control.  I'm super sore.

Well anyway better get back to my nap....err I mean, work.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Bill Lindsay]

"Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats seems even more skewed than normal. "

I always blame that on the fact that bits of glass are nearly invisible when the road is wet.  That and Murphy's Law, of course.  Some people have speculated that wet and sharp things slice into your tire more easily than those same sharp things do when dry.  

[Ron Mc]

could just be that your tire more readily picks up small shards in the rain, held by the surface tension of water.  They make more trips around and get pressed into the rubber - good argument for tire wipers.  

[LF]

"Best Tire" depends on what type of riding you do, how much total weight you are pedaling, how much you mind flats, and personal preference. A 160# randonnair on a light weight bike might prefer a different tire than a 200# commuter/ occasional off roader on a "country" bike. It's also a challenge to separate out "best" from a functional point of view, and the identity issues intractable from our buying choices.

Best,

Larry

On Friday, March 14, 2014 5:59:31 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote:

Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website description of a Conti tire:

"...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the bumps..."

Steve

[Ron Mc]

there is no such thing as best tire, there is only favorite 

[Steve Palincsar]

If you can specify the criteriia you can test and find the tires that best meet them.

--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[Coconutbill]

well spoken, Larry.

that's what I was trying at.

-evan

[Peter Morgano]

We need one special tire, forged deep in the heart of a volcano. A tire that is supple, fast, flatproof, quiet, cheap....ONE TIRE TO RULE THEM ALL!

--

[Lynne Fitz]

maybe that is why my times on brevets have been slower :-) Currently riding on Soma Xpress 650b. Sturdy - only two flats in 4000 miles (glass and a wire). But the past year has been unexplainably dismal.

Was riding the Hutchinsons before. Maybe I'll go back. Or try the new Compass 650b (Loup Loup? Babyshoe Pass? need the narrower one).

[Evan Baird]

Just fill your Schwalbes with helium. I heard that works really well.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I use Soma Xpress 650b on my commuter and have had two flats. One was
a thorn after 0.5 miles riding, and the other was a pinch flat after
running over a large, unseen object that caused me to crash down on my
rear wheel. For peace of mind it's good for the commuter and I don't
care about saving time on my 30 minute (each way) commute and extra
work means more exercise, which I need! Maybe I should be running some
armored tank tires, just in case :).

For brevets, the PariMoto made a huge difference in terms of perceived
speed and comfort, and I've never flatted those, but it's probably
just luck.

The Hutchinsons are good, but I think there are nice wider options.
The Soma B-line is probably an economical step up in speed as well as
the Lierre or the new Compass offering.

If I were going to ride 38s on brevets, then I would probably go with
the (not-extra light) Lierre or Compass offering. Bubba promises they
are almost as good as the Hetre :).

Toshi

[Jim Bronson]

I'm thinking about getting an Xpress as a spare tire, after having 5 flats on 2 different Pari-Motos.  I replaced the back tire with a spare after the 3rd flat, and proceeded to have two more.  

If a rider is going to have to install the spare tire, I think there's some merit in that spare being a little tougher.

I'm also considering trying out the Compass Loup Loup Pass as a rear tire, and keeping the Pari-Motos on the front, at least until my supply of Pari-Motos runs out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Chris Chen]

I'm of two minds.

I have the Barlow Pass Compass tires on the way and I'm seriously considering trying out some of those 700x40C Clement MSOs I saw on Will's Hillborne: I heard they come out to 38 on a 24mm rim and that's damn near perfect for lil' ol' me.

They look so Manly.

"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

[Dan McNamara]

I like the MSO tires. Have them on the XO-4 and the Black Mountain Monster Cross. You can get the 60tpi for less than $35. The 120tpi (which are nice) can be found to $50. No flats yet. Manly? Yes!

[Coconutbill]

is there a 650b equivalent for such a tire?

[Dan McNamara]

Currently not really. At least that I am aware of. There has been a fair amount of chatter about this in the 650B Google Group over the last year and i know a number of people had contacted Clement about a 650B version and gotten responses requesting more info on their bike and how it was set up. But no info about a possible model based on the MSO.


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/650b/oxAfZnB62YI

On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Coconutbill <evan....@gmail.com> wrote:

is there a 650b equivalent for such a tire?

--

[Dan McNamara]

Although - Soma has something in the works that might just fill this need.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/02/22/soma-fab-hits-the-gravel-w-new-cazadero-low-profile-knobby-tires/

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I think the Xpress would make an excellent spare tire and is a fine
tire. Using the Pari-Moto up front and a more durable rear tire makes
a ton of sense. I rode over 600 miles on my Pari-Motos and the front
still had the little rubber-new tire things attached in the center,
whereas the rear had worn away the tread pattern in the very center.

Toshi

[stonehog]

The MSOs work well, and look great (i might add) on the Hunqapillar: https://flic.kr/p/kpCU2r

I'm going to fender up the Hilsen with some Zeppelins to cover the Barlow Pass's tonight: https://flic.kr/p/kTv33e

I guess we should chat more, Chen!  I'll let you know how they work.  

My take on tires is that they make a HUGE difference in my enjoyment.  That's for me - not everyone obsesses about tires like some of us.  I like a supple, light tire, and don't mind the flats I occasionally get.  That said, I believe all flats happen on rear wheels while it's raining, and usually within the first 100 miles on the tires.  I once removed my newish Gran Bois Cypres tires after having 2 flats in one ride, and left them on the bench for a few months.  I then put 'em back on and rode at least 2k miles with no flats.  I've also gotten flats on beefy tires, and that's the ultimate letdown...

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

(currently experimenting with low-trail 650B)

[grant]

Tires: My apparent infatuation with stout tires comes from the way I ride now --- to work, downtown, and in the hills and on trails solo and with a few friends, often enough with a load. I'm not meticulous with maintenance. I've had about 500 flats in my life, and I don't like them anymore, and for me, just being OUT on a bike is great enough---a zippy ride won't make it any better, a slightly less zippy ride won't make it any worse.

If a guy on a carbon bike sees me as a carrot and zips by, I don't even pick up the pace. I often ride aggressively when I ride for recreation and I'm by myself, but these days I slow down if I'm about to blast by an unsuspecting rider. I'm rarely in a hurry, except when I do short timed rides maybe twice a week...but even then, I compete only against myself and on the same bike, so a climb of 7:50 on my Marathon-tired Sam is comparable to the same time on my Little-Benned Homer. My Cheviot will have Little Bens, too.

I've had it with flats---and blown sidewalls, and seeing sunbaked iffy sidewalls while the tread is still fine---so I like strong sidewalls and a little extra tread and a belt. If I were riding 400k brevets, I'd go to a lighter tire with a thinner sidewall and less tread and maybe even no belt, because I'd want to make the time limit and I'd want the speed edge advantage, which is both real and psychological.

When I mount a tire, I ride it and forget about it, as opposed to trying to sense how it compares with what tire it replaced. Jan and I are good friends, have been for a loooong time, and although I GET how a J vs G thing can come up when it comes to tires or trail or whatever, it's always a strange feeling to be put in the ring with a friend I have tons in common with. We both like bikes...prefer steel ones....lugged if possible....useful too....nice looking by our own standards, and there's about 85 percent overlap in that category...Jan is a friend, not a competitor or business adversary, and he always asks about my family when I talk to him. Our relationship shouldn't be public, but for the record, it is good.

Part of my thinking-about-this-stuff might be that I'm almost 60. I feel great, but am NOT as fast as I used to be. I am physically strong on the bike and have never quit riding or had a slack time, but a lot leaves between the age of 28 and nearly 60, and most of the time I think I'd rather go back to 1982 with my 2014 attitude,  than have my 1982 speed in 2014.

I think it's fine that there's debate--light vs heavy and all that, but just-----like------figure it out. Sort it out for yourself and your riding and move ahead with a mix of conviction and flexibility, seriousness and humor, or just make up something that makes sense to you.....something like that.

[Ron Mc]

Thanks Grant, but I think we were talking about what tires you and Jan Sell.  Thanks to both of you for expanding our choices.  It's showing in the tire market, and that's Good.  Hmm, let's see, do I want pragmatic tires or aesthetic tires...?

[Ron Mc]

Patrick, there is a paradigm shift between a 95 psi min-rating tire and a 55 psi min-rating tire.  The fact that the Bianca Strada is every bit as fast as the Parigi is noteworthy.  

[Jan Heine]

Grant,

Thank you for the nice words. Yes, I appreciate your friendship, too. Fond memories... I totally understand where you are coming from when it comes to tires. There is a place for sturdy tires. You articulate it well: How much do you want to think about your bike. I don't mind changing my chain once in a while, so I ride derailleurs, not an internally-geared hub. And I don't mind looking at my tires every couple of months to make sure that the sidewalls are still OK. (They usually are, I haven't had a sidewall cut in decades.)

For me, riding a bike is all about the smiles. The wind in my face, the bike leaning into a corner, picking up speed as I pedal harder – it's an incredible feeling. It's as much fun today as it was when I was ten and got my first ten-speed. I am looking for tires that sing on the road. I want my tires to absorb even the worst chipseal without making my hands blur on the handlebars. On gravel roads, I want my tires to float over the pebbles rather than bounce with each little bump. It's an added bonus that these tires allow me to ride through the night and feel none the worse for wear when I see the sun come up behind some peak in the Cascades. But even on short rides – especially on short rides – great tires makes the ride much more fun for me.

When I go for a run or a walk, I wear running shoes, not steel-shanked hiking boots. I'll have to be a bit more careful where I step, but that is OK. I also don't wear racing flats, and for the same reason, we don't make "event" tires with ultra-thin tread that lasts only 1500 miles and is more likely to puncture. I want tires that offer a great ride and performance, but that a good rider can use every day.

Like Grant, I don't like flats, and with the wider tires we ride these days, flats are such a rare occurrence that I rarely think about them. In more than 25,000 miles of riding Hetres and Babyshoe Pass 650B x 42 mm tires, I've had three flats. Two were caused by steel wires that would have penetrated most tires eventually. Even so, I would be willing to endure a flat every few months in return for a tire that puts a smile on my face.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[RJM]

I appreciate both you and Grant chiming in to this thread. There doesn't have to be much more to say to the topic, but I will say this - I think you both are totally correct with the wider tires are better tires. Even on my set up for fast club riding Roadeo I went with 33's and don't feel slowed down compared to the other club riders are riding 23's. I know I am more comfortable on the 33's, also happier.

 

Oh, and I hate flats.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

For those of you who have never ridden a supple, wide 650b tire, you
might think that smile-on-the-face ride is hyperbole, but I assure you
that it is not (for me).

I haven't been really training for my brevet rides except for my
commute to work on my AHH and some trainer rides at night. On my
commuter, I ride with the Soma Xpress tires, which are nice tires, but
I hop on my 650b Ram with Hetres literally for the first time this
year as I start my 300k brevet (other than a 100 ft jaunt at the end
of my driveway). My face lights up with a smile because of what I call
the Hetre hum, which I think is really the lack of vibration that you
get with other tires. It's like Mater in the Cars movie who whoops up
delight as he rides down the freshly paved road which is all so
smooth. I think that's it--you get that feeling that you are riding
fast on a freshly paved road, which I imagine would bring a smile to
most riders.

On my commuter, a little extra toughness to prevent flats and support
my grocery runs up the hill are good, but on my brevet bike, any flats
I get (I've never gotten a flat on a brevet with my wide 650b tires in
a couple thousand kilometers) would be worth it.

Go enjoy a ride that brings a smile to your face!

Toshi in Oakland, CA

[Patrick Moore]

The latest issue of Bicycle Quarterly has a very nice summary of all their tire testing data. Interesting that the fastest tire they tested was a 25 mm tire -- a Vittoria, and that thanks to its casing. I daresay that up to some point, a wider tire with the same casing would be a wee bit faster yet. I wish I could find something like that in a 559 571.

Playing around with my daughter's new-to-her Diamond Back "Outlet", with heavy sidewall'd tires, thorn proof tubes, liner, and sealant, I discovered that hard is indeed faster, at least on pavement. I dropped pressure to a point where I could pinch the casing with a strong grip, and the ride was very definitely slower. Oh well, if she rides it a lot, I'll invest in better wheels, tubeless, and Stan's.

I must say that I tend to fall into Jan's camp: riding is for fun, even when, as just now, it is just a 11 mile rt to the PO and grocery store. The Parigi Roubaix feel nice even with 20 or 30 lb in back.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

Patrick Moore

Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis

[Dan McNamara]

Tires can really make a difference in the fun. Using the Bomba around town I had the Schwalbe middys and then the big Conti Tour Rides. When the Big Bens were available in 650B I put them on the bike as soon as I could. Still an 800g tire but much more fun to ride.

[Burton]

I'm fairly certain I bought my Sam because the test bike was shod with Hetres. It's my first Riv. I'd taken a few test rides on other bikes, and my then-current bike had Duremes, and the Sam felt completely different. Nimble, but laughably smooth going over cobble and rough macadam. The difference was night and day. I immediately placed my order for the Sam and have put many thousands of miles on Hetres since, with very few flats. I'd guesstimate I get between two and three thousand miles a tire, depending on front and rear. The Hetres only come off for some Nokians in the Winter. The Nokians in comparison are dead, heavy, and jarring, but bite like crazy on the ice.

I just bought my wife one of the last available Betty Foys, and her reaction was the same--big wide grin, commenting that the ride was so, so nice. Props to the lovely bike, but best money spent is on the tires.

I'm new to biking, but have spent many years ski racing. Both sports are badly afflicted with gear junkies. And if you were to ask me where to spend your money on ski gear, I'd say boots, pay whatever it takes on boots; everything else flows from there and is secondary. Kind of feel the same about my Hetres.

[Ron Mc]

Hi Patrick, I have to ride Parigi on the crisp side (90 psi rear).  My wheel load is probably higher than yours, but if I ride them under pressure, I feel like I'm overstressing the rim on shocks - the air volume in the S-B overcomes the wheel load and lets me ride at very much lower pressure (55/50).  As I mentioned I have a Vittoria Evo on front on my go-fast.  Everything about the tire feels wonderful, but I rolled over a rock on pavement (90 psi in the 25mm tire) and it cut the tread.  I've been watching it and closing it with zap-a-gap but expect I will end up switching it for a reserve Strada.  

[Patrick Moore]

What tire is the "S-B"? I tend to run my tires lower than what many others describe: 60-65 for the PRs, ~ 90 for skinny 23s, sub 30 for the 55 mm Furious Freds, 55-60 for the 1.35 mm Kojaks on the 559 commuter. (I weigh 175.) At more than these pressures all start to feel rough. 

Our roads are generally medium good -- c+ to b- --, but we do have many, often very wide expansion cracks; 3-4" is common. I never (crossing fingers) pinch flat; the last time I did so occurred a few years ago when I deliberately rode 190 gram, 22 mm 559 Turbos into a patch of large gravel pieces to see what would happen.

But obviously wider means lower pressure (and a lower "harshness" threshold); and interesting to note, the lighter tires appear to require more air for a given width before feeling that "lack of support"; conversely, sturdier tires have a lower pressure "harshness" threshold: example, the FFs require at least 25, while the Big Apples, admittedly 5 mm wider, felt very hard at that same pressure.

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Patrick, I have to ride Parigi on the crisp side (90 psi rear).  My wheel load is probably higher than yours, but if I ride them under pressure, I feel like I'm overstressing the rim on shocks - the air volume in the S-B overcomes the wheel load and lets me ride at very much lower pressure (55/50).  As I mentioned I have a Vittoria Evo on front on my go-fast.  Everything about the tire feels wonderful, but I rolled over a rock on pavement (90 psi in the 25mm tire) and it cut the tread.  I've been watching it and closing it with zap-a-gap but expect I will end up switching it for a reserve Strada.  

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

Patrick Moore

Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/20/2014 08:26 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:
> What tire is the "S-B"?

I'm pretty sure SB is the Challenge Strada Bianca, which is a 30+mm
version of the Parigi Roubaix.

[Patrick Moore]

Of course, that's it. But my P-Rs measure 29 mm on older Open Pros -- though come to think of it they are spec'd at 27 mm or so, IIRC (I bought them second hand) so that the S-Bs would measure an actual few mm wider.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Ron Mc]

I'll probably abbreviate them as Biancas from here out - I like the name, which translates to caliche road - what we have here.  

On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:09:40 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

Of course, that's it. But my P-Rs measure 29 mm on older Open Pros -- though come to think of it they are spec'd at 27 mm or so, IIRC (I bought them second hand) so that the S-Bs would measure an actual few mm wider.

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 03/20/2014 08:26 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:

What tire is the "S-B"?

I'm pretty sure SB is the Challenge Strada Bianca, which is a 30+mm version of the Parigi Roubaix.

I tend to run my tires lower than what many others describe: 60-65 for the PRs, ~ 90 for skinny 23s, sub 30 for the 55 mm Furious Freds, 55-60 for the 1.35 mm Kojaks on the 559 commuter. (I weigh 175.) At more than these pressures all start to feel rough.

Our roads are generally medium good -- c+ to b- --, but we do have many, often very wide expansion cracks; 3-4" is common. I never (crossing fingers) pinch flat; the last time I did so occurred a few years ago when I deliberately rode 190 gram, 22 mm 559 Turbos into a patch of large gravel pieces to see what would happen.

But obviously wider means lower pressure (and a lower "harshness" threshold); and interesting to note, the lighter tires appear to require more air for a given width before feeling that "lack of support"; conversely, sturdier tires have a lower pressure "harshness" threshold: example, the FFs require at least 25, while the Big Apples, admittedly 5 mm wider, felt very hard at that same pressure.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.