BQ to publish study of pedal retention usefulness in Summer issue

[Patrick Moore]

Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for those who don't read it or BQ.

I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur bike.

Jayme Frye says:
May 15, 2015 at 6:27 am

I was with you up until SPD clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.
Cheers

Reply

Jan Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:
May 15, 2015 at 6:55 am

We did test this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…

Reply

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*************************************

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The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Interesting...I don't know whether they're more efficient than flat pedals or not. But I do like the way my SPDs feel when I'm riding. And I don't worth at all about slipping and having my foot come off the pedal.

Plus they make my bike harder to steal.

[Philip Williamson]

I'm interested in that. I haven't used any retention in several years, and so far I haven't had a problem, even fixed offroad. In the situations where, yeah, I could pop a quad pulling up on the pedals to clean a steep hill, I just step off and walk. It's more pleasant, and seems faster anyway. 

Knock wood,

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Clayton.sf]

I ride an SS mtb without foot retention. So far so fun.

[Michael Hechmer]

I ride with "clipless" in my case Speedplay Frogs not SPD, not because it gives me more power but simply because I like the extra security and feeling of not having my foot slide  on the pedal.  When I am barreling downhill, trying to pick up momentum before the next rise the last thing I want is to hit a little rough spot and loose contact with the pedal.

Michael

[Garth]

 good read :  http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf

from here : http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/


You don't have to change your mind and thinking .... nor can you truly .   You can and do however .  . .  Understand :)

[Anne Paulson]

Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:

I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
OK, I don't mind walking.

At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked
me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys
took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He
explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda,
yadda.

I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to
him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3" tires, a belt drive,
a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy
off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have
realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume
that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen
all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and
that somehow flats got on my bike by accident?

Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices
than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women
automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge.

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--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[cyclotourist]

HA! Pretty much the same exact thing happened to me. Except I was on
my Quickbeam. I got the "You would be faster if you had clipless"
line. I thought to myself that I would also be faster with 28 more
gears!

In my case I don't think it had much to do with gender. Just
ignorance, and parroting the bit of knowledge he gleamed from his free
Buycycle subscription.

Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[James Warren]

And another thing that could be replied is, "sir, you presume that I care about being faster."

James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- 700x33

[cyclotourist]

If he was truly observant, my attire would have told him all he needed
to know: MUSA shorts, a t-shirt and Vans. It was a smile and wave
moment.
But really, he was just trying to help me be a better cyclist,
according to what he knew.
No harm, no foul.

[Derek Simmons]

It was NOT because you didn't share genders with the those other riders; it was because you didn't have the same gear and the same bike "worldview"--and they would have "gone off" on any one riding your rig, not because the rider was different, but because the ride was.

Derek Simmons
retiredins...@gmail.com

[Rod Holland]

Anne,

Sounds like the guy forgot to unclip his mouth from his Y chromosome... That causes any number of accidents...

rod

[Eric Norris]

Speaking as a rider who uses clipless pedals and shoes, I certainly appreciate this, and I'm sure that riders of flat pedals will extend this courtesy to me. Same goes, I would hope, for Lycra vs loose shorts, jersey vs non-jersey, bar height, etc., etc.

We all put a lot of thought into where we're going, but that doesn't mean we end up in the same place.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, Bruce Boysen, formerly of the iboblist, was a demon singletrack rider who said he'd regularly leave his fully suspended, 10 speed peers behind on his rigid singlespeed 29er. (His signature used to read, please excuse me, "big, rigid, and single".) He rode no-retention. IIRC, Bruce as almost my age; in his 50s at any rate.

Anne, relax, there are many idiots out there, don't let them get to you.

Rohloff, belt drive -- is this the Krampus? Photo?

I agree wholeheartedly with Eric: what works for you may be very different from what works for me, but that doesn't mean either set of choices hasn't been well thought out.

But I am eager to see BQ's evaluation.

[cyclotourist]

I ride clipless the majority of the time. On MTBs it lets me jump
stuff better as I lack the skills to bunny-hop well w/out them. On
road bike rides (longer, sustained pedaling) I have IT band issues
that will set me knee a'screamin' if I don't have it in just the right
spot. Clipless pedals keep my foot/let positioned correctly which
reduces that problem.
They help me ride bikes comfortably, without pain, and for longer
periods of time. Win, win, win!

For the most-part, I tend to not tell bike-riding strangers they
should use them. Too busy letting them know my bike isn't an antique.

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--

[Deacon Patrick]

"Do you see any clips? I am riding clipless." Grin. Of course I usually get the comments about the barefeet rather than my retention system. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Anne Paulson]

This is the Krampus:
https://plus.google.com/photos/+JohnLamping/albums/5995658591943182593?authkey=CKDxg7ehtuv6QQ

July 1st, I leave Banff on the Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail.

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting bike, and certainly not one you'd see on the typical shop floor. I've toyed with the thought of the Thudbuster but, for my short rides, it would be unnecessary weight and complication. Still, after horses have chopped out our trails ...

Please post notes and photos of your trip, and good luck!

"Midnight, Prince of Darkeness"? It looks to cute to be a prince of darkeness!

Patrick "juuuuust kidding" Moore, who rather likes the Mad Max/post-apocalyptica-wasteland-machine quasi-reference in ABQ, NM.

[Tom Harrop]

What a bike! How is the belt drive? Can't believe anyone would look at that and only be able to come up with "you should ride clipless"...

[Anne Paulson]

The belt drive is fantastic. The Thudbuster seat post is no longer on
the bike. It turns out that with the small size of the bike and the
big wheels, there is not enough room to use a bikepacking seatbag, so
I installed a Nitto R10 rack. The R10 attaches to the seat post (look
at the bike and tell me where else a rack could attach) and did not
play nicely with the Thudbuster.

The one drawback with the Rohloff/belt drive is removing and
reinstalling the rear wheel. It's a nightmare.

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 3:35 AM, Tom Harrop <twha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What a bike! How is the belt drive? Can't believe anyone would look at that and only be able to come up with "you should ride clipless"...

[Liesl]

Anne (and Deacon Patrick), I think these kinds of comments and suggestions-- even though men get them too -- can be very gendered. I think a good way to think of it is: do women repeatedly and persistently receive and experience comments on a whole range of mechanical/engineering activities that presume ignorance/ineptness, or is it a context-dependent isolated comment? In my experience with bicycles, motorcycles, computers, and woodworking to name a few, the answer to the first scenario is yes. Like some of you who share your expertise on metallurgy or physiology (which I always appreciate), this is a professional area of expertise for me. Lots and lots of really good research consistently finds that it is the predictable pattern of expectations, for gender in this case, that is deeply connected to disparities. It's complicated. If Anne's antennae were up that it was a gendered interaction, I'd go with her gut.

And Anne, you continue to be a role model for me as a Rode Warrior Chica! You too, Patrick!

Xxoo RCW

[Mike Schiller]

Anne, sounds like you have found a solution to carrying gear in the rear, but a few bag makers can produce small bikepacking seatbags.  I had one made by Greg at Boulder Bags that will fit a "french fit" bike. It fits my summer sleeping bag and a bivy/tarp.   https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/15776183554/in/dateposted-public/

others...I really like the way clipless pedals work and how I feel more part of the bike. It keeps my feet aligned and my pedal stroke smooth. 

Riding flats always feels awkward and only works for short rides.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

 

[Anne Paulson]

Revelate makes smaller bikepacking seatbags-- but not small enough to
fit my bike. And in any case, I don't want a tiny little bag, because
I want to carry stuff in it. I'm not really a fan of bikepacking
seatbags: they don't hold very much, they're hard to pack and unpack,
and whatever you want is always on the bottom. A transverse bag like a
Carradice or a saddlesack is so much better from a user interface
perspective. I'm currently reworking the soft transverse bag I made to
fit on my rack.

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[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

As I said in another forum apropos of something else--when people start explaining to you why you're doing something wrong and that something has no consequences for them one way or the other, you're into the land of religion.  Avoid.

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:09:13 AM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:

[Will]

I dunno about this.

I remember walking the babies in a backpack and stroller. It never failed that women (never men) would give unsolicited advice on things. Socks needed to be pulled up, hats needed adjusting, sun screen, and so forth.

I never made it a gender issue. And I never thought that they should understand that my top-of-the-line Graco stroller with all the expedition options (like special wheels) would inform them of my parenting knowledge.

I think this is true for bikes. It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were more efficient. And it might be that your Krampus with all the Gucci parts didn't register with him. Rohloff doesn't mean much to me and I know what it costs.

Will

[Matthew J]

> It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were more efficient. 

Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.  

On point - I tour with half clips and don't wear cycle specific clothing when touring.  Two years back on a couple day tour from LaCrosse, Wi to Chicago stopped at a lunch spot in a small town a couple spandexed cleat wearing fellows were telling me my ride and attire really don't work for long distance riding.  My statement - 'Yet here I am.' did not seem to convince them.  

[Patrick Moore]

I think the incident was a huge opportunity for a magnificent put-down, something along the lines of, "Joe Blow of Surly and I conferred about this build, and we both agreed with Tom Ritchey and Keith Bontrager that flat pedals work best for this setup. I must say it works for me; my last 3 customs weren't nearly as nice." 

Of course, the dork probably started riding in 2012 and doesn't know "Ritchey" or "Bontrager" from "Graco".

[clyde canter]

http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/

The above has some really good reading. (free PDF link about 3/4 way down.

It is good to have choices.  I (if asked) always encourage new riders to give riding "free" a fair chance before trying any type of retention, being it clips and straps or clipless.  I currently like riding "free" best but look forward to reading the BQ article with an open mind.

 

On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for those who don't read it or BQ.

I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur bike.

Jayme Frye says:
May 15, 2015 at 6:27 am

I was with you up until SPD clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.
Cheers

Reply

Jan Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:
May 15, 2015 at 6:55 am

We did test this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…

Reply

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*************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle

The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

--

[Patrick Moore]

Yanking the thread back to retentionless, Vaughn, the you 20-something mechanic as Stevie's says he rides nothing but platforms (what is the proper term for pedals with grippy flats but no clip mech? Non-no-clips?) and feels fully confident bombing at 35 mph down very rough tracks. He also says he finds it no hindrance for applying power in climbs.

[Will]

That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that I received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with it (or post to a use-group).

I listened and hoped to learn something. Mostly I didn't (learn anything). But the point is: gender knowledge isn't uniformly distributed.

The second point is: do not assume that your bike's (or stroller's) setup implies credibility. I have seen lots of folks riding expensive carbon bikes that don't make sense (to me). Does the fact that they are riding a 5K bike mean they have a clue?

Answer = NO.  

So whether pedals were his business or not isn't what is being debated. What's being debated is gender-based knowledge.

Will

[Dave Redmon]

The main reason I use straps with flat pedals is to retain control of the pedal when I come to a stop. When it comes time to go, I raise my foot and the pedal rises with it. It's quick, reliable and I avoid nicks and bruises to my shins.  My pedals are MKS Tourists, which allow use of Power Grips. 

Dave in Kansas 

[Anne Paulson]

I don't want to get into an argument about whether a guy of my age
would have gotten the same comments about clipless pedals. Maybe,
maybe not. And I certainly believe that the comments were
well-intentioned.

But Will, I think you're missing the point. It's not about the cost of
the item; it's about how out of the mainstream it is. Some bikes are
more obviously intentional than other bikes. It's easy to end up with
a $5K carbon bike; if you walk into a bike store with $5K and a desire
for an expensive bike, you are not unlikely to walk out with a $5K
racing-style carbon bike. That'll be the default, in many cases. There
is nothing unusual about a $5K carbon bike, at least where I live.
Someone could have one because they carefully evaluated all the
alternatives and deliberately chose exactly what was on their bike,
but they could also have one because they got the thing that people
buy. The same is true for an expensive Graco stroller; it's expensive,
but nobody has to go out of their way to buy a Graco stroller.

On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone
touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty
common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed
'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to tour on a singlespeed
'cross bike, and I'm not going to tell them they should consider using
gears. I might have a long and interesting discussion about the merits
of gears versus singlespeed when bike touring, but I'm not going to
assume that they're riding a singlespeed because they never heard of
gears before.

I always enjoy looking at individualized bikes, and talking to their
owners about why they made the choices they did. It's one thing that's
fun about meeting up with other Rivendell riders.

Here's the baby example: if you were changing the baby, and a woman
noticed you were using cloth diapers, would you like it if she started
telling you about disposable diapers? That would be annoying. People
who use cloth diapers chose cloth diapers. And people on bikes with
Rohloff hubs, Gates belts, dynamos and flat pedals chose flat pedals.

But other

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Will <waller....@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that I
> received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with it
> (or post to a use-group).

> The second point is: do not assume that your bike's (or stroller's) setup
> implies credibility. I have seen lots of folks riding expensive carbon bikes
> that don't make sense (to me). Does the fact that they are riding a 5K bike
> mean they have a clue?

[Matthew J]

> What's being debated is gender-based knowledge. 

Off topic for the list, no doubt, but mansplaining is definitely a well-documented phenomena.  And while there certainly may be anecdotal counter narratives* of womansplaining, I find it incredibly hard to believe such activity comes anywhere near its male equivalent.

Finally, well into the 21st Century, infant care in the United States for better or worse is still seen by a large majority as primarily a female activity.  Cycling on the other hand is clearly gender neutral.  Women are involved with cycling at its most competitive levels to just having fund on a sunny weekend.  The analogy between a stroller and a bike is a big jump. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/18/2015 11:13 AM, Anne Paulson wrote:
> On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone
> touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty
> common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed
> 'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to tour on a singlespeed
> 'cross bike, and I'm not going to tell them they should consider using
> gears. I might have a long and interesting discussion about the merits
> of gears versus singlespeed when bike touring, but I'm not going to
> assume that they're riding a singlespeed because they never heard of
> gears before.
>
> I always enjoy looking at individualized bikes, and talking to their
> owners about why they made the choices they did. It's one thing that's
> fun about meeting up with other Rivendell riders.

But you are experienced, intelligent and wise. You are not in the first
flush of new conversion, brimming over with new "knowledge," new
"truths" and full of certainty, recently assimilated from an intensive
study of bike magazines, etc. Some of these people, like new converts
to any religion or enthusiasm, cannot help being jerks. I suspect it is
not -- or at least, not entirely -- gender-based, because it definitely
does happen to out-of-the-mainstream men too. I'm sure when they look
at something out of the norm they do not see a carefully chosen solution
based on experience; they see someone who hasn't gotten The Word yet.

I have had people on a long ride in the middle of a torrential downpour
stand there and tell me that my fenders are "worthless," and this after
they have been riding inside of a rooster tail in a pace line for a
couple of hours.

[Will]

No and no.

Mansplaining is not well documented... and it is exactly why I used the stroller example. Women are quite capable of gender indifference in giving advice.

I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both are transport devices.

My point is: despite having spend big $$$ on functional logistics, both Anne and I had experiences that suggested folks did not view our equipment as "experiential".

Will

[Will]

Anne,

I think we agree. I watch folks on the bikepaths here riding $5K bikes. Yes... they went to the LBS and many of them got hosed.

I had a young person give me the business last month. She was on an Orbea with all the go-fast bits. I was on my Atlantis (with fenders). She wanted to know why I was running bar-ends.

How do you explain bar-ends to someone who's running STI? How do you explain an Atlantis to someone who's riding ovalized tubes to reduce wind resistance?

My point is not that gender equals stupid. (although I think Orbea = stupid). But gender is a convenient anchor we use to frame discussion.

Will

[Matthew J]

> Mansplaining is not well documented

Google pulls up thousands of articles on the subject, many from respected outlets. 

> I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both are transport devices.

Something is lost in translation here.

[Will]

<sigh>

[Mike Schiller]

...of course we all must realize  that the most well researched, carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice for a person/use.  The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely feels that they made an informed decision even though they would be more comfortable on an upright bike with proper gearing and a comfortable seat ( where have I heard that before?). 

 So rather than take offense at others suggestions, sometimes it's best to just absorb the information, decide what to use and go on with your ride. 

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
> ...of course we all must realize that the most well researched,
> carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice
> for a person/use. The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely
> feels that they made an informed decision even though they would be
> more comfortable on an upright bike with proper gearing and a
> comfortable seat ( where have I heard that before?).

Why are we all assuming the person who bought the $5000 carbon road bike
made a bad choice? Simply because you saw them riding on the MUP with
it? It may be their only bike, and although it might be sub-optimal for
a MUP they may do most of their riding on roads and in groups where such
a bike is a perfectly appropriate choice. What's more, because you are
more comfortable on an upright bike, why assume they would be? Not
everyone finds road bikes uncomfortable, and not everyone finds upright
bikes comfortable. And, of course, everyone's idea of a comfortable seat
is different.

[Garth]

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:05:09 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

> It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were more efficient. 

Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.  

Ultimately .  . . .  What someone else think of me is none of my business !  !   ;-)

[Steven Sweedler]

On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Anne Paulson <anne.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:

I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
OK, I don't mind walking.

At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked
me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys
took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He
explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda,
yadda.

I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to
him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3" tires, a belt drive,

a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy

off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have
realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume
that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen
all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and
that somehow flats got on my bike by accident?

Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices
than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women
automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge.

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  good read :
> http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
>
> from here :
> http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
>
>
> You don't have to change your mind and thinking .... nor can you truly .
> You can and do however .  . .  Understand :)
>

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Brewster Fong]

Of course, now a days, a lot of $5000 carbon bikes are designed with "upright" seating position for more comfort!  For example, last year my buddy, who just got in cycling, went into a Trek store and bought that $5k carbon bike! Electronic di2 shifting, tubeless ready wheels (I was able to talk him into 700x25 tires!), 600 series carbon frames, integrated garmin sensors.... Well, he also got the "H2" fitting position! This is the one that has a sloping top tube and a higher head tube for, guess what?.....wait....yup, to get that handlebar higher!  Not only is my buddy comfortable, he ended up losing 30+lbs and is now one of the fastest guys up the hill!   What's not to like?!

[Steve Palincsar]

The Trek H2 is a far cry from "upright."   For most riders other than racers, it's far more appropriate than the H1, though.

[Brewster Fong]

I don't know, the shop gave him quite a bit of spacers and the bar was actually pretty high. Maybe not Nitto technomic high, but his bars were definitely pointed up! In fact, once he loss weight, I hate him, he actually flipped the stem because he was able to get lower!  I just laughed. But as long as he's comfortable, that is what matters! Good Luck!

[Mike Schiller]

Huh?  I didn't say I ride an upright bike.  On all 3 of my low trail custom's I have drop bars a inch or so below the saddle. I was referring to Mr P.

On the carbon wannabe racers... I see at least a dozen a day. I live along the coast in SoCal and they ride their bikes up and down all day long.  Carbon bike with flat pedals and running shoes and mirrors.  At least they don't have  those goofy interrupter brake levers!  I'm glad they are out riding but the need to "belong" is strong.

~mike

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

#interruptershaming 

[Steve Palincsar]

Mike is just plain wrong.  There's nothing "goofy" at all about interrupter brake levers.

[Patrick Moore]

Garth: what I think of you is very much your business!

Over and out.

For now.

Patrick "playing the age'd fool in ABQ, NM.

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[John]

Anne, I think my little cousin would have the best response in this situation:

"Talk to the hand!"

And I think Mr. Twain has the best advice for situations like this:

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

John

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[Mike Shaljian]

Perhaps Hanlon's Razor applies to this sticky situation:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[Jack K]

To illustrate what I find odd in Mike's post (below) I'll suggest the following modification of it. To be clear, this is suggested merely to illustrate a point and possibly foster useful discussion.

On the <lugged steel> wannabe <retro grouches>... I see at least a dozen a day. I live <in an aging upper middle class neighborhood> and they ride their bikes <to the coffee shop> all day long.  <Highend custom steel> bike with flat pedals and running shoes and mirrors.  At least they don't have  those goofy <plaid bicycle bags>!  I'm glad they are out riding but the need to "belong" is strong.

Cheers and safe riding!

-Jack

[Jayme Frye]

Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published "test". Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2 charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from the BQ crew given all the rigor applied to tire testing. 

Jayme

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass blog for those who don't read it or BQ.

I'll be very interested myself, as someone hitherto convinced that retention is a great help. If tests show that retention doesn't help, I'd probably still keep retention on my fixed gears, for safety, and because they do undoubtedly allow pulling up for more torque when climbing steep hills, but would undoubtedly switch to platforms for my off road derailleur bike.

Jayme Frye says:
May 15, 2015 at 6:27 am

I was with you up until SPD clipless pedals. I am not convinced there is any need for retention systems outside the ultra competitive world of pro cycling (primarily sprints). Perhaps you could use your testing methods on the claims that pedal retention systems are more efficient and allow the rider to produce more power by pulling up. That would make for a great BQ article.
Cheers

Reply

Jan Heine, Editor, Bicycle Quarterly says:
May 15, 2015 at 6:55 am

We did test this. It’s in the Summer issue, which will come out soon…

Reply

[Jan Heine]

I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention, and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more extreme case: Do we also need a rigorous study to prove that a bike with flat tires rolls slower?

I think it's pretty clear that during "normal" riding, retention makes little difference. Grant P. is right when he says that you don't pull up much, if at all. However, during short efforts on rolling terrain, it's obvious that you can pull up, and I did realize how much I do pull up when that ability was taken away. On the same bike and the same course, I suddenly needed to shift on the smallest hills, whereas usually, I just roll over them. And getting out of the saddle had no benefit, since I couldn't lever the bike with my lower foot as a fixed point. Suddenly, my power output was limited by my body weight...

In the article, I compared it to opening the lid of a jar. If you hold the jar with one hand and the lid with the other, you can apply way more force than if you have your friend hold the jar while you turn the lid.

Considering this, I am not sure I want to put our limited resources into a more sophisticated study.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Seattle WA USA
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Brian Hefferan]

I like the two hands opening a jar lid analogy. Is power output really limited by the rider's body weight when using platform pedals, though? It seems that by pulling hard on the handlebars in rhythm with the pedal stroke, some of that force of can be added to the downward leg thrust. The arms pulling the bars would be analogous to the hand holding the jar while the lid is twisted off.

I do feel a big boost powering up hills when I pull with my biceps. While it doesn't feel as smooth as pulling with the leg during the pedal upstroke, I don't see how it would be less efficient.  I seem to get up most hills about as well either way, steep ones excepted.

Brian Hefferan

Lansing, Michigan

[Patrick Moore]

Why haven't I received my copy??? I want it!!

I had hoped this article reported a scientific study, but even if it don't, it will be interesting to read others' experiences on the matter. Me, riding fixed or, when using gears, not using them a great deal, I find that I do pull up hard on hills and "pedal in circles" with some energy (scare quotes because I know it's really not true circles) when I want a little extra power to crest a rise or when I turn into a wind.

I liked clips and straps with Bass, Sperry, Timberland boat-type shoes, but found that, when climbing hills hard, I would pull my shoes out of the straps or, often, my feet out of the shoes. Slotted cleats avoided this, but then why not just use clipless?

OTOH, Bruce Boyson (was he ever on this list? He used to be on the iBoblist), who apparently is a ss off roader of some mileage and competence, described leaving his multigeared, clipped-in, suspended friends behind on tough singletrack using platform pedals, and young Vaughn at Stevie's, who is strong enough to be competitive in local cyclocross, says platforms don't slow him down at all on his ss's, uphill or on 35 mph rough dirt downhills.

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[Ron Mc]

From this distance, I'm still in awe of Anne's bike.  But I had one of the best chats with a couple of roadies at yesterday's halfway stop that I can ever remember.  These guys had followed me on my upright for 8 miles before they gained momentum to pass.  As we came out of the creek bottom with its protective cypress tunnel, onto the open fields and headwind of the flood plain, they distanced me pretty good.  I caught them at the highway intersection, and stayed pretty close up the 2-mi hill at least until I neared the shallower slope at the top and again, the teeth of the headwind.  When I landed at the county park for a water break, they were stretching out, about to load their bikes and wanted to talk about mine.  If I have anything to brag about on this bike, it's the gearing, five single step cogs 12-16, then 4 wide steps, 18-21-24-29.  Compact double crank, 42/25T.  But I have narrow steps where we live, 60" to 85" and can find a cruising gear for any condition and pace, and, likewise, have great choices on the small ring, narrow steps below 55" all the way down to 23".  When I ride from home, every ride ends with a 400' climb that includes some 14% grade.  These guys have been riding out here a long time, know the area and the climbs.  Their one "defense" was throwing out how heavy my bike must be.  I explained to them it wasn't that bad, and that's OK - everybody wants to believe their own choices have merit - and they do.  

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:13:27 AM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

[Mojo]

I too was disappointed with the "study." By study I thought Jan meant a scientific study where a hypotheses was rigorously tested with a repeatable methodology that would refine the hypothesis. Instead it was subjective with non-repeatable observations of how Jan reacted to a system that was different to his own pedal system and possibly his own bias. At the end of the short article, we are left with an untested hypothesis that "Uphills, especially short rises, are easier when your feet are firmly attached to the pedals." 

I personally don't disagree with this hypothesis, just like in the past I didn't disagree with the hypothesis that tire pressure was directly correlated to speed.

I think if Jan had advertised that he had some observations of pedal performance or some such wording, then I would have not had an expectation of a (scientific) study.

Joe "huge fan of BQ and pay for 3 subscriptions" Ramey

[Patrick Moore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-refuting_idea

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is everyone expecting ?   Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, or they make up their own evidence  . No scientific study is or can be Absolutely objective, ever !  

As in "A Few Good Men"  ......
Q= "I want the Truth !" (wanting the Absolute Truth)   
A= "You can't handle the Truth " (Absolute)

Man's science can't handle the Truth Absolute.


So . . . .  it always kinda comes down to . . . . Just Ride  . . . .and Smile :)

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[Garth]

Just Ride  .  . .  . .  and keep smiling Patrick Moore :-) 

[Clayton.sf]

Riding flats well after years of clip less is not something that happens over night. Different technique is needed and that comes with regular use. Quickly jumping on flats for a ride and drawing conclusions is likely too hasty an approach.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/08/2015 12:02 PM, Garth wrote:

What is everyone expecting ?   Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, or they make up their own evidence  . No scientific study is or can be Absolutely objective, ever !  

Oh, really?  I remember seeing absolutely objective scientific studies often on Star Trek.  Dr. McCoy would examine red shirted crew member and pronounce: "This man is dead, Jim!"   Can't get more absolutely objective than that.

[Jan Heine]

There seems to be a misunderstanding. We never advertised it as a "study". I wrote in a blog comment that we "tested" some pedals with and without retention. I am sorry this was misunderstood as purporting to have done a scientific study, and then reported here as such. The article and test never were intended as a scientific study. Like any test, they simply report on the (somewhat subjective) experience of riding with the product. I apologize for any disappointment that arose from this misunderstanding.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Seattle WA USA
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Patrick Moore]

I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this?

[Garth]

It makes zero difference to me :)   I ride on the flats, sometime spinning sometimes mashing. Up the ubiquitous 20 something percent climbs , both seated and standing , makes no difference to me .  I wonder how I put up with riding rock hard boards called cycling shoes for so long .  My feet have never slipped of my pedals Wellgo MG-1's and now I wear Croc slide sandals . 

As Clayton mention in his post, it takes undeterminable time for one to adjust to riding in flat pedals, if ever.  To just hop on a bike with flat pedals(or vice versa) and called it a "test" really defeats the spirit of the intention.  Do I want the truth or not ?

This is an issue with no one but within oneself  ..... What's good for me ?  To extend that choice to others as if they ought to be doing it too , yes we've all done it in our enthusiasm for what we like ..... but truly to each distinctively their own .  These distinctions are ever cultivated and celebrated :)  


BTW, there is test on youtube by some well known British guys who had a racer in a lab on rollers and tested him with flat pedals for any physiological differences . They were essentially the same, with flat pedals being slightly more efficient physically. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM

[Garth]

Of course after the test it was agreed that for racing, clipless is more practical and safe , with the violent efforts and all.  So again, whatever suits your style :)

[Deacon Patrick]

Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's "jar lid" example, I thought "Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing" so I personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when pulling up on my handlebars.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

I shall have to try it. But what about really steep hills? I find that I not only pull down on the bar, but pull up on the pedal. Would losing the last be a handicap?

I mean such occasions as grunting a 40 lb load up a very steep 1/4 to 1/2 mile hill up the side of a mesa in a 70" gear. Again, street shoes with straps didn't cut it. Pulling up is required (for me) for the steepest parts -- I think; that's what I need to test again.

Tho' I'm getting to old not to get off an walk in such instances ...

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[Deacon Patrick]

I have no idea, Patrick. I ride the steep in SS but not with the weight you're talking about. And don't know how much I'd notice the ability to lift up on the rear pedal.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Deacon: thanks.

To turn the question around (for everyone): what are the advantages of riding no retention? I discount the reason given as "no need for special shoes" since I certainly wouldn't be cycling fixed or off road no-retention in Bass Weejuns on Tony Lamas or, for that matter, in Sperry Topsiders.

So, allowing that you are going to need special shoes of one sort or another, what are the benefits? Perhaps there will be confirmation of the study finding that no retention takes less energy, but leave that out for the time being.

Patrick Moore, who just now cranked a 75" gear up a very steep 4/10 mile long hill up the mesa to Rio Rancho (behind Don Chalmers Ford), but with no load, and very definitely pulled up hard on the bar and pulled up hard on the pedals, though the tailwind provided at least psychological assistance.

[Patrick Moore]

And I am not secretly and snidely asserting that retention is better*. If no retention is proved to be more efficient, I'll drop my Keos and SPDs in a NY minute.

But I am skeptical, since cycling and its related technology is after all very mature, and foot retention dates back well over 100 years.

* I mean better in every way. Of course no retention has obvious benefits in freedom of movement on the pedal.

My own take at the moment is that, like planing, high bars, wide bars, low bars, narrow bars, wide saddles, narrow saddles, front loading, rear loading, what have you, it is largely a matter of taste and riding style and type.

[Richard]

You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.

I don't get BQ's "opening the lid" analogy, nor do I understand this statement ...."When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not actually pull up, but I am using the pedal that is moving upward as a fixed point to push against with my downstroke leg.

What? How can the upward moving pedal be a fixed point to push against?

I'm not against clipless, I used them for many years, but the arguments in favor of, aren't convincing to me anymore. I know I'm in the minority here, but switching to platform pedals with pins has changed my mind about the need for foot retention for any type of riding. Just my experience, take it with a grain of salt.

[Clayton]

After riding clipless and toe clips since 1987, I wanted my spin to be more efficient, so I spent 3-1/2 years perfecting my spin, by pedaling a stationary bike, one legged on slippery flat pedals. The only time I have found clipless to be an advantage is when you need the extra horse power by pulling up, which I find I rarely need anymore. I went to flats due to bad knees, and am glad I did. For road racing and cross country mountain bike racing, clipless is still the way to go. I run clipless on my plastic road bike, but flats on my mountain bike and Atlantis. There are so many advantages to flat pedals. It took awhile for me to unknot my "clipless pedal is superior mindset" and open it to flats.

"Trust me, I am and edumacated bike mag rag reader and believe everything they say".  I have found a few things Jan has wrote that make me question his expertise, but overall he seems on point.  He talked about brake "judder" and how plastic bikes accentuate it. Basic brake work: You toe in your brake pads to get rid of judder, no matter what the frame material is. He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I think he was just putting on a sales spin for his bikes. I enjoy his magazine, but in the end, I take all bike advice with a grain of pepper. After all, the joy we find in riding is the choices WE decide, not what the magazines, experts or pros say, not the egomaniac cycle expert with too much testosterone, or the bike marketing industry that makes absurd claims. For me, riding a bike is liberating. I just want to ride like a kid again, just riding my bike and enjoying every pedal stroke. Too much bike expert "noise", takes the fun out of it. Ego's are a funny thing and I find mine very irritating at times. . . . Like right now... lol. 

Claytonious Q

[John]

I was disappointed in the piece. It just sounded like Jan's personal preference and that he needed more practice pedaling flat pedals to have an opinion worth sharing.

I love 5-10 Sneakers & the Riv Grip King pedals better than riding on VP Thin Gripsters or Vice pedals, but is that really meaningful to anyone else?

Not that I can see.

I do like reading BQ though, and I'm going to renew my subscription.

John  

[Patrick Moore]

Richard: thanks. You pushed me over the edge. I plan to try flatties on the Fargo, but next month or so, since I've just dropped huge $$$$ on my car, roof, hvac, cleaning, etc.

Vaughn at Stevie's recommended some polycarbonate pedals list $22 that he says are fine and used by the BMX periti. So $25 w/tax is no problem. And they come in the designer color of your choice.

The additional expense, ironically in view of the "no shoes ruze", is that I need special shoes, and for this I'd like some advice.

I need closed shoes, not the boat shoes or sandals I prefer in summer; and of my closed shoes with rubber soles, I have a beat up pair of safari boots -- too hot; and a pair of nice oxfords with lugged treads -- too nice.

So, recommend unto me the cheapest possible shoe -- Target? Payless? -- that will work sufficiently well with these pedals to give me, after a month or so, a sufficiently true idea of how flatties work.

If someone has some to sell, I wear 44s.

For singletrack or other dicey riding situations, I can easily imagine how no retention would be liberating, esp as I have never been particularly coordinated. (For a while in the early '90s I rode singletrack with slotted cleats, Specialized shoes with cross-type cleats; I no longer have those skills.)

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[Philip Williamson]

Boat shoes would probably be fine. I rode in Ralph Lauren fake All-Stars high-top sneakers today, with thin wool socks. VP-001s with pins. 

What BMX pedals are you getting? I have a pair of silver VP-001s coming for the Ross C-Line makeover, but I'd like to upgrade another bike as well from "cage" style mtb pedals.  

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[John]

Patrick,   5-10 sneakers have been my favorites for years. I save a bunch of dough buying the close out models from the 5-10 web site at http://shopfiveten.com/C-44/Bike

I especially like the ones with the sticky rubber soles because they grip even better when the pedals & soles get wet.

John

 

On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 1:31:47 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Richard]

Patrick, I think you'll love "flatties". Plastic ones will do, just make sure they have pins on the flats. Your feet will never slip, even when wet.

You really don't need special shoes for platforms. For hot summer days I ride in sandals, and sneakers in the cooler months. Try to find ones with a stiff sole. I can't tell you how liberating it was to dump my clipless shoes and pedals.
Again, just my experience.

[Ron Mc]

there is no question with platform pedals you give up pull with a high-rev spin up hills.  But for me, the advantages of foot placement flexibility along with instant ingress and egress more than make up for it.  

If you're grunting on a 70-inch gear, you should stand up anyway and lose the pull regardless.  

[bert...@gmail.com]

I pull up especially when I'm grunting up a hill at very low cadence, which of course means standing and hauling on the bar. I'll see how much torque I lose with clipless-less-ness.

Need closed shoes because of dirt and pebbles. Will look at 5-10 and also atGoodwill.

Sent from my iPhone

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but can you please reconcile your claim about the lack of ability to put out power with BMX sprinting? These guys generate in excess of 1000 watts and don't have clipless pedals. They seem to be able to put down plenty of watts with very modest body weight.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/11/2015 11:38 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote (speaking of Jan Heine):

He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I think he was just putting on a sales spin for his bikes.

What bikes would those be?  Jan doesn't sell bikes at all. 

[clayton bailey]

Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought he did. Hmmmm.

Clayton

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[clayton bailey]

Patrick, one of my favorite shoes I used back in my toe clip days, are skate shoes. They have grippy soles, padded toes and tongues and you can find them cheap at Payless or Target. However, currently my faves are 510s paired with big mountain bike pinned flats. They stick so well, that with a little technique you can lift the back of the bike. I no longer fear catching air and having my feet fly off. Not being clipped in has let me ride in situations I would have gotten off and walked in the past. It took awhile to adjust, but man, it was worth it.

Claytonious

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/11/2015 10:14 PM, 'clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought he did. Hmmmm.

You are wrong.  He owns the Rene Herse name, but licenses it to Mike Kone of Boulder Bicycles for the Herse bicycle line.

[Matthew J]

> Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought he did. Hmmmm.

Well, you are going to have to HMMMM a little bit longer and harder. 

While Jan owns the name and sells components with it, Rene Herse branded randonneur frames are made and sold by Mike Kone and Mark Nobilette (who used to and may still make some of the Riv forks by the way).  

Jan does not charge Mike to use the name for the bicycles.  

Definitely no bikes for sale on the Compass site.

[Ron Mc]

Clayton, I don't think your head should have been bitten off.  It was a reasonable interrogatory.  

[Matthew J]

But its cool to bite Jan's head off for something he does not do.

[Jan Heine]

It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister company that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists is because we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our research into practice and make the parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We cannot tell others what they should manufacture (and believe me, we have tried!), so we had to do it ourselves. It's that simple.

The conflict of interest is best dealt with by being honest. So when the handlebar bag of a test bike that was held on with a Grand Bois decaleur we sell flew off during a fast gravel descent, of course, we reported it. When we found that the Grand Bois Ourson tires didn't perform appreciably better than the Panaracer Col de la Vie that used the same mold, we said so. Sure, we lost some sales at Compass, but the credibility of Bicycle Quarterly is far more important. And the Ourson tires were discontinued based on our research, and we replaced them with our own Compass Loup Loup Pass tires, which perform much better. And Compass Bicycles sells the MKS platform pedals and half-clips that I found to offer less optimal performance on short hills... If I was trying to boost sales, I would have said that the half-clips offer the same performance as clipless or full toeclips, and have quoted the Youtube study...

To suspect that we talk about fork judder on carbon cyclocross forks only to boost sales of Rene Herse bikes is a bit far-fetched. For full disclosure, we do get a small licensing fee from Boulder Bicycles for every Rene Herse bike sold, but so few of these bikes are being made that it's totally insignificant, on par of what we make from selling Maxi-Car replacement axles. These are projects we do because we want to do them, not because they make money. We also do sell the wonderful Kaisei "Toei Special" fork blades, but again, I doubt many are sold to riders who'd otherwise buy a production carbon fork...

The carbon fork issue (brake judder with cantilever brakes and a high-mounted cable hanger) has been reported in many magazines, but I believe we are the first who figured out what really is happening. It is simply a mismatch between very stout fork legs and a flexible steerer. Instead of getting the "brake dive" in the fork legs as the weight transfers forward during braking, you get flex in the steerer, which affects the tension of the brake cable, setting up a rhythmic oscillation. It can happen with any fork material, but it's predominant with carbon forks. I am sorry if that wasn't explained clearly enough in the article.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

[clayton bailey]

Jan, I apologize. 

I did not mean to offend anyone, and was totally mistaken about your connection to Rene Herse. Your connection to them in my mind, somehow became your brand, that you sold. However I stand by my brake comments. I had intense brake judder on my Specialized Crux, and it was cured by toe-in  (regardless of the cause). Other forks may not have the same results, and using different brake pads could change things too. I use long Mt. bike Kool Stop salmon pads with great results. Cantilever brakes are all basically the same. They all need toe in, regardless of the fork material. You do a great job on your magazine and products and I can't blame anyone for marketing their products the best way they see fit.

Clayton Bailey

[Matthew J]

> It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister company that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists is because we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our > research into practice and make the parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We cannot tell others what they should manufacture (and believe me, we have tried!), so we had to do it ourselves. It's that > simple. 

Thank you Jan.  I have always found your candor about your products benefits and limitations refreshing. 

And this from someone who prefers half clips matched to White pedals - performance be darned!  

[Mark Parker]

I thought the whole debate was that for "unracers" flat pedals are fine.  From what I have read of his exploits, it doesn't surprise me that Jan gains some efficiency from being attached to the pedal.  I don't think I do.  I certainly fall into the "unracer" camp and will keep on doing what I have done since I was 5 - just ride.

[Eric Norris]

I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about what other riders use. Flat, clipped, I don’t really care, and I don’t proselytize others to my point of view.

That being said, I’ll just note that you only have to watch a cyclist with one leg to know that clipless pedals allow you to pull up on the upstroke:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJHuwkJfp-4 

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

On Jun 12, 2015, at 7:49 AM, Mark Parker <mpark...@gmail.com> wrote:

I thought the whole debate was that for "unracers" flat pedals are fine.  From what I have read of his exploits, it doesn't surprise me that Jan gains some efficiency from being attached to the pedal.  I don't think I do.  I certainly fall into the "unracer" camp and will keep on doing what I have done since I was 5 - just ride.

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[Bill Gibson]

Nuf said!

--

Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[Patrick Moore]

It's really a question of torque, not power. Like an old 20 hp tractor that can climb a wall (if it is using clipless pedals).

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[Kellie]

Hahaha....... made me 😄

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Rod Holland wrote:

Anne,

Sounds like the guy forgot to unclip his mouth from his Y chromosome... That causes any number of accidents...

rod

On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:09:13 AM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:

Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:

I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
OK, I don't mind walking.

At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
the easy way. We got to chatting, and, as often happened, they asked
me about my bike. I have flats on the bike. And then one of the guys
took it upon himself to tell me I should start riding clipless. He
explained that clipless would make my pedalling stronger, yadda,
yadda.

I answered politely, but I was furious. It should have been obvious to
him that my bike was carefully chosen: it has 3" tires, a belt drive,
a dynamo and a Rohloff hub. This is not a bike that one can can buy
off the shop floor; it's a custom bike, and one that he should have
realized I chose after careful consideration. Why, then, did he assume
that a rider who had ridden for 40 years, and who had carefully chosen
all the parts of her bike, would be ignorant of clipless pedals, and
that somehow flats got on my bike by accident?

Don't be a jerk. Don't assume that riders who make different choices
than you do don't know what they're doing. And don't assume that women
automatically need the benefit of your superior knowledge.

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  good read :
> http://www.bikejames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Flat-Pedal-Revolution-Manifesto.pdf
>
> from here :
> http://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/
>
>
> You don't have to change your mind and thinking .... nor can you truly .
> You can and do however .  . .  Understand :)

>
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--

-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Clayton.sf]

Now we have two claytons!

Will have to change my handle ;-)

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

[Deacon Patrick]

Just imagine how I made the real Patrick feel when I joined! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick (who sometimes likes to look like the real Patrick by adding a long description to my signature just to mess with him. Grin.)