questions about buying /selling a bike on this group

[Bill Ruprecht]

Hi,

I am new to this group and am thinking of buying and selling some Riv bikes in the near future. I have a questions:

How do you deal with the transaction securely? Do you just "trust" that the person will ship the bike after you pay him/her? At least Ebay has procedures in place.

This works on both sides of the transaction as i wonder how someone would trust that i would ship after receiving his money.

Let me know how you guys usually deal with this.

Thanks,

Bill

[Patrick Moore]

Bill: First, welcome. Second: I've bought many, many items from list members and have never been disappointed. This list, and the iBoblist too, are notable for their civility and for the smooth transactions amongst members.

That said, you can always ask for payment via a medium like Paypal, which has (I don't know the details; never had to resort to them) sanctions against dishonest transactions and protection for those who use it.

Perhaps you might observe the list traffic for a few months to get your own idea of the nature of the list and the quality of the members.

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[Minh]

Bill,

This is an open group accessible to (almost) anyone, so of course you must be careful, there is no official help from the group if something goes bad so your best defense is to be on alert.  

In general most of the buying and selling is between established members so it's pretty safe.   For less established members i would take a few extra precautions, asking to talk on the phone, verifying their address/personal information (disturbingly easy to do in with google....) to make sure everything lines up.  

Paypal does offer some protection when you pay for goods (not 'personal/gift') but it can still be dicey so i wouldn't depend solely on that.  

In the end, use your gut, if a deal feels too good to be true, or something feels off, walk away. 

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Hi Bill - 

A lot of us on this list have "known" one another since the days of usenet.  I can think of at least a dozen people who I'd just send something to and know I'd get a check back from them.  

By the same token, this is also a publicly searchable group, and there is a possibility that someone with nefarious intent might contact you who has not actually been active on the list.  

That being said, there are many more lucrative ways to run scams than posting a for sale listing here, (including wait for it to be passed through the queue if you aren't active on the list) and then bilking the sender.  It's one of the reasons I don't mind a slight bottleneck in the system, and it's also one of the reasons I don't upgrade anyone's status if all they have done is post FS/FT listings. 

The first thing I'd do as a buyer would be search for the person here on the group archives and see how long they've been active and the types of posts they generally make.  If it's the only post a person has ever made, I'd do some things to protect myself.  

Protecting myself might include using paypal - because they do give you recourse.   It might be getting someone else on the list to go look at an item, so you can get a general feel for the deal.  It could be as simple as agreeing to talk on the phone at a certain time, seeing if they are easy to get ahold of and trusting your gut response to their trustworthiness in the conversation. 

Getting photos you know are real (have them take a photo with a specific page of the newspaper shown).  Fast and complete responses to questions. Those will give you a pretty good insight into who you are dealing with.

Finally, having a clear understanding of what kind of right of refusal you expect would be important.    If the quality doesn't match the photos, what happens?  If you kinda-sorta-wanta see the bike in person but might ship it back, you should figure out who pays for that - and what level of shipping insurance should be included.  If it shows up at your place after the shipper drove a forklift over it - what happens? 

And giving one another the benefit of the doubt helps too - sometimes a seller gets bogged down with work, health, life and other stuff and just doesn't get the package out the door in time.  It doesn't mean they are running a scam.

I get about 1 or 2 emails per year asking if I know so and so who hasn't shipped something yet.  In every case, it's self-resolved

The one true scam I can recall sounded like there were all kinds of warning signs  right from the get-go.

And - you know it was coming, right? - just to be clear: any transactions you engage upon are done so at your risk. 

- Jim / group admin

cyclofiend.com

[Chris in Redding, Ca.]

Bill,

What the others have said, plus.....I have bought and sold a fair amount of stuff both here and as a BOB. When I sold a Riv frameset I had the money (four digits worth) in hand before I shipped. On the other stuff I just ship and wait for  payment. I have had zero problems. YMMV.

Chris

Redding, Ca.

[Deacon Patrick]

Keep in mind we buy and wear wool pirate shirts and skivvies. Grin.

Ditto to my Patrick twin and Minh. It doesn't take long to suss out whose a regular, and at least on the web interface you can click the additional options for a post and see all posts made by a member so you get to know them a wee bit without being here long (or to remind you if you have). 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

I've bought and sold dozens of things here, including expensive frames. Never had a bad transaction; never even occurred to me it was possible. Of course that time could come someday, but I would be very surprised.

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[drew]

So,
I'm somewhat new, and I've probably bought enough stuff off the list to build a couple bikes. I've also hooked up a friend with a complete bike/large purchase. 99% of the transactions were smooth. Had one bad one, from a pretty consistent contributing member (who has since disappeared). 100$ lesson learned. The key to PayPal is to do it as a paying for goods and services transaction. Friends and family offers zero protection, as I found out. For a big purchase, you might get pushback from the seller because they will have to pay a paypal fee that can be avoided in friends and family. Offering to cover that fee is useful in making everyone happy and covering yourself. Still, I wouldn't hesitate to buy and sell here. It's a good place.

[Chris in Redding, Ca.]

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 2:00:08 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

So,
I'm somewhat new, and I've probably bought enough stuff off the list to build a couple bikes. I've also hooked up a friend with a complete bike/large purchase. 99% of the transactions were smooth. Had one bad one, from a pretty consistent contributing member (who has since disappeared). 100$ lesson learned. The key to PayPal is to do it as a  paying for goods and services transaction. Friends and family offers zero protection, as I found out. For a big purchase, you might get pushback from the seller because they will have to pay a paypal fee that can be avoided in friends and family. Offering to cover that fee is useful in making everyone happy and covering yourself. Still, I wouldn't  hesitate to buy and sell here. It's a good place.

Hey All, 

I have have had people 'confused' about what they were gonna get when I sent a pic of same and that's what arrived. So a set of pedals and cages but no straps is just that....no straps. But never an issue. 

Clarity. Total disclosure. You are selling to a 'friend'. You are. They are just friends you have not yet met. 

I think that has been the ethic from the get go and I'm on board. 

Chris

Redding, Ca.

[David Banzer]

I'd add that this is a very honest and trusting group. I've sold items before I had time to upload photos of actual items, and folks trusted my description and bought without photos. On my end, I try and be as descriptive and honest as I can when selling.
And I've trusted folks as well and bought items sight unseen.
David
Chicago

[cyclotourist]

It's a vicious circle: We just buy, sell, and re-purchase each other's
stuff here!

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"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Jeff Lesperance]

As a buyer on this and the iBob list, I put a fair amount of faith in the seller on the other side of the transaction to deliver, and I've yet to be disappointed. For small transactions, I reason that I may be sending money off into the ether, and it would not destroy me financially to lose money, but I would certainly raise attention to the community if my money went somewhere and no product returned to complete the transaction. For larger transactions I'll do a bit more vetting just to ensure that I understand exactly what I'm getting.

As a seller, I'm taking the position that I am going to be exceedingly customer service oriented. I've sent items out that were damaged in transit or for which my attempt at describing and photographing didn't meet the sellers perception of what they were getting. For small transactions like this, I'm giving a full refund and leaving the goods with the buyer, and for anything larger, I'm doing a full refund and paying for return shipping. My reputation as a member of this community is more valuable than a few dollars here or there.

-Jeff

Silver Spring, MD 

[Surlyprof]

As a fairly new member to the list (about a year), I have bought one item and sold a couple others.  The parts I sold were usually in response to someone's open request for a particular thing that I happened to have.  That mutual need, a list member's need to find it and mine to pass it on, made for a pleasant transaction and a nice feeling of contributing to the community.  We used Paypal for all the transactions and it worked great.  Particularly nice was the feature to print prepaid mailing labels.  Everyone was prompt on payment to the point that I felt a responsibility to get the package to the post office as quickly as I could to return the favor.  When pricing I would suggest getting a clear price from the USPS site so you know how to price the item shipped.

Welcome.  It's a wonderful, knowledgeable and helpful group of people.

John

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Now now... We rationalizers think of it as a virtuous circle :-)

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[cyclotourist]

:-)

[Bill Lindsay]

I buy here from folks I "know" because they sell the things I want to buy, usually at great prices. I like giving these people my money because my money goes to their next project which almost always benefits me in some way.

I sell here to folks I "know" because my parts go to their next project which almost always benefits me. Their money goes to my next project which ( I like to think) sometimes benefits the group.

[Bill Ruprecht]

Thanks, for all the suggestions. Still getting used to using the group and thoroughly enjoying all the Rivendell wisdom.

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 4:29:14 PM UTC-4, Bill Ruprecht wrote:

[RJM]

I generally use paypal to pay for and accept payments from stuff I sold. The good thing is that I can also take credit cards by being a verified paypal business vendor and I generally just eat whatever fee that is associated with that. I'm not huge on adding extra fees on top of a selling price because someone would rather pay me using plastic. It's not enough money to get all worked up about anyway.

 

But I digress...I've bought and sold a few things on this board and everything has gone pretty smoothly.

[hsmitham]

Hi Bill,

Like others I've bought many items from this group. I haven't sold too much though. My experiences have all been top notch. With that said I will like the Jim our moderator caution you that you make transactions at your own risk. This is a searchable forum and there is very little vetting as to who can buy and sell. I'd like to take this opportunity to share an experience I had recently not bike  related but selling on eBay and receiving funds through PayPal.

I sold a Sony a6000 digital camera on eBay in May. The day the auction closed through eBay communication the buyer asked me to send the camera to an address they supplied. I waited for the funds to show up in my PayPal account. They did but were pending as "un-verified buyer" after three days it was changed to just "pending" I figured this normal as I needed to ship the item then the funds would be released.  I printed out a shipping label and went to my local USPS they couldn't find the address? They said maybe it's a new development and not showing yet in our records? Here's my biggest error in this entire process! At this point I recalled that the buyer had given me a different address. So I promptly went home and retrieved the address and mailed it out. What I should have done was contact the buyer and ask questions which would have, should have thrown up a reg flag. I should have cancelled the sale. But alas I was happy it sold and felt under pressure to be a prompt seller to maintain good eBay seller feedback. So with the auction closed and the payment made through PayPal. All seemed good to go! Approximately 25 days later I received correspondence from PayPal that the buyer opened a dispute with their credit card company claiming they didn't authorize the purchase!

Here's where if you've ever watched the movie "Brazil" you can appreciate the morass I fell into. Since the transaction was a completed transaction eBay washed their hands of it and referred me to PayPal. I lost count how many times I called PayPal's customer service, hung up the phone left with a level of frustration I've never felt before, they have( I figure purposely) the most incompetent people at this point. Here's what I garnered from all those conversations.

1. Don't worry if the credit card companies found in favor of the buyers then no one would do business with the CC companies.

2. A dispute like this can take up to 75 days.

3. They PayPal gave the CC company the incorrect tracking number. So the CC company obviously figured I was a scammer.

4. We will give all the information you gave us to the CC company. Basically, they PayPal are your advocate at this point between you and the buyers CC company. Shaky at best.

5. Since you didn't ship to the buyer's address we have on file all PayPal seller protections are void.

I finally received an email from PayPal that the CC company decided in favor of the Buyer. At this point my PayPal account shows a negative balance of $880 $20 of that is a charge back fee from PayPal. Next up I started getting calls from PayPal! The person on the other end of this conversation was clearly competent. From that conversation I was told that seven days after a chargeback PayPal requires you settle your account with them and if you don't your account will be sent to a collections agency. At this point you may ask well you've got options. Right?

Since eBay discards all records of transactions after 60 days I can't communicate with the buyer through them. Back in early June when this all happened I did send a eBay email to the buyer asking how we can resolve this, no reply. The email that PayPal has on file for the buyer is bogus. Both eBay and PayPal won't give any information about the buyer for privacy reasons. That competent PayPal representative said, "oh a lawyer can help you get access to the buyer's records". I contacted my local police and the detective said we can't help you this is a civil case and PayPal is the victim. 

Very important here is the PayPal user agreement. It states that you are responsible for any and all "chargebacks" period. In researching my options I found there are numerous scams perpetrated on the eBay platform and it's not necessarily a safe place to sell or buy things. Other sellers a lot more experienced than I have fallen victim to scams/thefts for way more money. In fact those merchants doing business on eBay received correspondence from eBay and PayPal claiming it's a hazard of doing business. These companies know their platforms are used by thieves and yet they portray a sense of safety. Granted, of all the transactions the bad experiences amount to a small fraction.  

My takeaway from this experience.

I'm paying back PayPal and will no longer use them to send or receive money period nor any other electronic payment service. In the future I will only accept checks and won't ship until those funds are cleared by my bank. I figure either the buyer's identity was breached or they are the perpetrators and using the credit card company to do fraud. It's been an expensive lesson and I hope this experience helps others not go through what I went through. My future plan is to share this through Facebook and get it out there. 

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

 

On Saturday, July 18, 2015 at 1:29:14 PM UTC-7, Bill Ruprecht wrote:

[Garth]

    FWIW and not about sale procedure : It's a complete turn-away-from-the-sale for me to buy or sell parts that are not made at least relatively clean . At least a good wipe or wash of dirt and grease .

[Bill]

Another FWIW: A USPS Postal Money Order sent by ordinary USPS snailmail takes a little longer but provides some degree of protection coverage with mail fraud laws.

[Hugh Smitham]

Sure I'd accept that method of payment. 

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 9:00 AM, Bill <web...@gmail.com> wrote:

Another FWIW: A USPS Postal Money Order sent by ordinary USPS snailmail takes a little longer but provides some degree of protection coverage with mail fraud laws.

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[cyclotourist]

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[Johnny Alien]

As an FYI it's actually untrue that a postal money order has any extra protection. I had someone scam me years back. I paid for the item with a USPS money order under the assumption that anything that happened would be "mail fraud".  They never sent the item so I contacted the USPS and they told me their money orders are just standard money orders and the best I could do is follow up with the police.  I only use Paypal these days as pretty much anything else comes with too many possibilities for error even with honest buyers and sellers.

As a buyer you pretty much have the MOST protection from Paypal but as a seller as long as you ship only to verified addresses, always ship with a tracking number (and I like to include signature verification) and insure everything for the full amount then you have protections as well.

All that said I have never had any issues with anyone on this forum and everyone is super nice on top of it!

[dougP]

"PayPal claiming it's a hazard of doing business"

So much for the supposed security of electronic payment systems.  Hugh, your tale is instructive for us all.  When I see all the levels / parties / etc involved in this transaction, I can see why it's attractive to scammers.  I'm with you on checks.  It must have a legitimate address plus you have the banking info.  Check clears, deal done.  No messing with 3rd / 4th parties, etc.  I've had people say "no checks, Paypal only" which seems shortsighted.  Wait for the check to clear, then ship the parts.  If it was an emergency I'd be at the LBS.  Often for stuff under $20 I'll just mail cash :& I've never had a problem.  The USPS is a lot more reliable than Paypal, IMHO.  So far USPS has a perfect record in my experience. 

dougP

[dougP]

Funny postal service money order story:  I've had a few of those sent to me; maybe people who don't have checking accounts?  Anyway, my local mini-post office is in the back of another business, and they can't cash USPS money orders.  No biggie, the "big post office" is a 10 minute bike ride away. 

dougP

[Hugh Smitham]

Doug,

It has me really looking at all online platforms, what I've noticed is that they all have extensive user agreements (written obviously by lawyers) that remove them from having any liability whatsoever. You can't use a site unless you sign the user agreement. In this whole mess I accept that I was pretty stupid/naive and I was ripe for the picking. I was really excited to sell the camera and move on so there is/was my blind spot. From here on out what you've detailed will be my method. In fact, I'm now looking at how I purchase things, really scrutinizing whether I need something and will I be needing to sell it in the near future? 

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

--

[Jim Bronson]

Until very recently PayPal was *owned* by eBay.  FWIW...

Curious what the credit card company's reason was, I guess PayPal did not tell you that?  Seems like it would almost be better to *not* use PayPal and get some other credit card clearing service that gave you more of a voice in the process.  I know there are credit card processing services out there, I wonder if there is some minimum transaction amount.

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[Hugh Smitham]

Hi Jim,

On Aug 19, 2015 2:42 PM, "Jim Bronson" <jim.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Until very recently PayPal was *owned* by eBay.  FWIW...
>

I was aware of that change.

> Curious what the credit card company's reason was, I guess PayPal did not tell you that? 

That's right, I was told only that the buyer opened a dispute "did not authorize the purchase" other than that nothing zip!

Seems like it would almost be better to *not* use PayPal

Yes. I won't be using PayPal. I also won't be using another layer of payment processing. If I sell something I will only accept a check or cash and will not ship anything till my bank verify's funds are in my account.

and get some other credit card clearing service that gave you more of a voice in the process. 

I don't know of such a company?  If you know please share.

I know there are credit card processing services out there, I wonder if there is some minimum transaction amount.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

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[Jim Bronson]

Well, if you are a member of a warehouse club like Costco or Sams there are things like this:

https://www.costcopaymentprocessing.com/

I've never seriously looked into other services besides Paypal but your tale of woe has me thinking about it.  1.38% + 19c per transaction is less than PayPal's fees or Square's fees for mobile transaction processing.

So I called them...the minimum is more or less $1000 minimum in sales or you get a $20 monthly fee and you have to have some sort of online storefront where you own the domain.  Not so practical for the occasional seller...

There's also services like Chase Pay where they do PayPal like processing but that requires one party or the other to have a Chase bank account, which I don't, but might consider if I sold stuff more regularly online.  But I think it only works with checking acounts:

https://www.chase.com/online/digital/quickpay.html

[Hugh Smitham]

Jim,

Thanks.

I don't plan on selling that often. For me a check will do just fine. If that's a hassle for someone then they can pass on buying from me. Here on out I'm simplifying and reducing my liability. I'm a super honest guy, but I've been burned one too many times. Selling on this list-serve has always been good and I plan on selling bike parts so hopefully folks will understand.

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

[Jim Bronson]

I agree with you Hugh, I have had very good experiences here for the most part.  One time it took inordinately long to get a frame but it did show up eventually.

[Kieran J]

Does the US have an equivalent of Canada's Interac EMT? It's an inter-bank money transfer using email.

I've asked this before on similar threads but don't recall what the answer was.

http://www.interac.ca/en/interac-etransfer/etransfer-detail

It works very well - much preferable to PP if you ask me.

KJ

[Garth]

  You know when you register an account with Ebay, Fed Ex, UPS or even the USPS . . . .and you ship something by making and paying for the label online , the price you are paying is an ESTIMATE only !  It is by no means , set .  The final price is not determined until it is delivered .  The only exceptions to this are the flat One-rate boxes .  So they have basically, carte blanche to charge your card whatever they see fit.   I found this out by checking my Ebay fees and statements, I was being overcharged often.

   This means any "error" and I mean any ! adds on extra "fees" .   This means dimensions, weights , addresses and everything must be spot on .  This I found is nearly impossible , or should I say , an open invitation for "errors" to be found as some addresses  are considered "out of range" that they do not inform you of beforehand and are subject to penalties .  Once I caught on to this a confirmed it by calling all 4 companies , I found the only way to pay accurately is at genuine UPS, FedEx, USPS offices .   The true rates are always at a UPS FedEx shipping depot, where the big trucks go, not "authorized shippers" who usually add fees unbeknownst to the shipper. 

   Shipping to me has just gone wild , lol.  "Back in the day" , the 70's/80's and even 90's it was all so simple , and none of these "extra" fees. You went to the UPS warehouse and filled out the form , they had a simple chart with the calculated fees based on zip codes.

[Hugh Smitham]

I too found the same in regards to shipping. I now just go to my local USPS where I get an accurate cost. Apparently, UPS & FedEx have add on fees that they don't add on when you calculate shipping cost through their online system. I called both carriers and the fee's were out of delivery area?? And fuel costs. I ultimately found calculating shipping costs through eBay or online  through the two aforementioned carriers pointless which always left me paying more. My Dad say's often, "companies/businesses are always looking for ways to separate you from your money". Another one he likes to mention is "Buyer beware". I now would add to that "Seller beware". I think my new Mantra will be live simply.  

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

--

[Garth]

Yep .  . . . "if" I choose to ship something these days  , it's only if it's a real joy to do so .  Otherwise , well .  ..  .what otherwise ? !  

                              

  " Be only what you really love to see "

[Curtis McKenzie]

All is milk and honey just to get us to release our credit card number. Then....

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[Hugh Smitham]

The root of suffering is craving...

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

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