Please help me with my Toyo Atlantis conundrum

[Jamie D.]

I have what I believe to be a 56cm Toyo Atlantis:

• The serial number is AT0299.

• The frame measurements match the geometry chart.

• It has the curvy chain stays.

• The lugs look to be the style used on Toyo frames.

Imagine my surprise when I go to put my brand new, fancy 26" wheel set into the frame and something looks off... the canti posts look too high. I go and grab a brake caliper to check and it's confirmed, too high for 26" wheels (sigh). I then put a 650B wheel in and the brake caliper lines up correctly.

Since the frame has also been repainted, I'm assuming a previous owner had the canti posts moved for 650B wheels.

The fork clearance horizontally inside the fork and in the chains stays where a 26" tires would go is 65mm. With a 26" wheel in the fork, the vertical clearance is 65mm from the top edge of the rim to the bottom edge of the fork crown. With 650B wheel in the fork, the  the vertical clearance is 52mm from the top edge of the rim to the bottom edge of the fork crown.

My impulse is to get the canti posts moved back into the original position and repaint. I got good deal on the frame, I'm hoping this will be a "forever bike" and it will be fun to choose my own color.

Do you agree that the canti posts have likely been moved? Is there any reason not to move them back other than the cost of moving the posts and repainting?

[Jamie D.]

[Brian Turner]

There were 56cm / 650b versions of the pre-MIT Atlantis. They are quite hard to find. I thought those were only made by Waterford, but there’s may have been overlapping Toyo built versions as well.

Brian
Lexington KY

[Joe Bernard]

I agree this looks like a Toyo frame with the canti posts moved, I don't believe there were any Toyo 650b and the Waterford frames did not use pointy lugs. I see no reason not to reconvert it and paint. 

Joe Bernard 

[P W]

Is there a reason not to just run it as-is, with 650b wheels?

P. W.

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On Apr 5, 2026, at 9:12 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree this looks like a Toyo frame with the canti posts moved, I don't believe there were any Toyo 650b and the Waterford frames did not use pointy lugs. I see no reason not to reconvert it and paint. 

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[Brian Turner]

If anyone follows Marcus (@probablyriding) on social media, he has a Waterford-made, 56cm 650b Atlantis with pointy lugs. I know because he and I were both bidding on the same frame when it was up on eBay.

Brian

Lexington KY

On Apr 5, 2026, at 12:14 PM, P W <philip....@gmail.com> wrote:

Is there a reason not to just run it as-is, with 650b wheels?

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[Joe Bernard]

Well then. No knowledge of that Waterford frame, please disregard my entry in the discussion. 

[Jamie D.]

I found some more info in this old thread about the Toyo-to-Waterford transition.

According to the geometry chart of the time, a 650B Atlantis can fit 2.1" tires.

With the current configuration on my frame the max tire size is likely 1.9 which would leave around 3mm of clearance at the top of the fork crown (super tight).

I believe the AT0299 serial number indicates this was the 299th Atlantis ever made, which would be very strange for it to be 650B but not impossible I suppose.

Also, my frame does not have a kickstand plate or mid fork braze-ons as is consistent with the early Atlantis frames. 

As far as I can tell, all of the Waterford Atlantis frames I've seen have mid fork braze-ons and a kickstand plate.

Why not run it as is 650b? Great question! I think really want to try out the 26" 2.3 tire Riv experience... and I just had these wheels built.

What do you think knowing this? Whats the max tire size you would feel comfortable running at 650B?

[P W]

I’m the wrong person to ask the maximum tire width I’d feel comfortable riding, because the answer has always been the widest I can possibly get away with, providing there’s a mm of clearance in all directions!

And, often, even when there’s not!

I’ve been known to file down both fork crowns and brake calipers, after all. So I am not to be trusted.

That’s said, if it is indeed supposed to be a 659b Atlantis, I would certainly keep it that way.

Do you have a way of contacting previous owners, to find out whether the brake bosses were ever moved?

P. W.

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On Apr 5, 2026, at 10:27 AM, Jamie D. <jamiedil...@gmail.com> wrote:

I found some more info in this old thread about the Toyo-to-Waterford transition.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/1c6338ab-3159-418d-92ad-044634c73267n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bob]

Re: 650B Atlantis

I once spent too much time digging through archived RBW materials (https://notfine.com/rivendell/) and archived rivbike.com webpages (on archive.org). So far as I can tell, the pre-MIT 650B Atlantis was made by Waterford in 2016–2017. The earliest reference I found in this group is a post by Bill Lindsay on December 2, 2016 (https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/keexAOoYrrA), which includes a photo of an Atlantis. The earliest dated mention on the RBW site I found is in the May 2017 geometry chart (https://web.archive.org/web/20170602082329/https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry). The first archived instance of the 650B Atlantis on the model page is July 4, 2017 (https://web.archive.org/web/20170704052849/https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/atlantis). This is also the brief, shining moment of the 650B Hunqapillar, which I sadly seem not to have noticed was available until after it no longer was.

Bill's photo and the photos on the archived model page from 2017 show mid-fork braze-ons for a front rack, double eyelets and the fork dropouts, and a kickstand plate. Many photos I've seen of the Toyo-era Atlantis do not have the mid-fork bosses, and some do not have double eyelets at the dropouts. Seems like you have a 650b-ified Toyo Atlantis.

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Bob

[Bob]

Should read "double eyelets at the fork dropouts,…"

[Jamie D.]

Thanks for all the opinions and insight so far everyone.

Bob, I have to agree and I think your previous rabbit hole venture confirms the frame is highly likely to be a 650B-ified Toyo Atlantis.

It feels a bit strange to have an Atlantis that can't fit a 2.1 tire... but maybe there's some advantage to keeping it 650B?

[Ben Miller]

My 2 cents: move the canti posts and repaint it Atlantis Submarine Green!

Sure 650bx48 is a good tyre size, but 26x2.25 is much better for an Atty. 

[Wyatt]

Maybe it's just me, but if I was that close to building up such a gorgeous bike and discovered that it fit 650b wheels, I'd finish building it up and give it a shot.

Looks like you already have a 650b wheelset on hand. Throw some 48s on there and let it rip. Always possible you decide that you have to have that Rat Trap Pass lifestyle and decide to get the posts move, but wouldn't you want to know how it rides as is? 

[iamkeith]

How high is the bottom bracket with the 26" wheels installed?  Are you certain it wasn't converted from a 700c frame rather than a 26" frame?!  That would be my first guess, and would seem more likely.

[iamkeith]

On Sunday, April 5, 2026 at 5:54:29 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:

How high is the bottom bracket with the 26" wheels installed?  Are you certain it wasn't converted from a 700c frame rather than a 26" frame?!  That would be my first guess, and would seem more likely.

Thinking more about it and rationalizing my own comment/theory:  Remember that:

1.  Rivendell HAD reintroduced 650b wheels and tires while the Atlantis was still being made at Toyo, however they were kind of the exclusive realm of the Saluki and Bombadil, which existed explicitly to use that wheel size.  I don't remember a 650b Atlantis until much later, as others have mentioned.  (I actually bought one of those, but traded it for a store credit before it arrived, when I accepted the fact that it wouldn't fit well.)

2.  By the time the Atlantis was made, most All Rounders, in the larger sizes, had already switched fron 26" to 700c wheels.  The Atlantis was just an All Rounder made in larger volumes at first, to be more affordable.  A 56 frame doesn't seem small enough to have warranted 26" wheels.

If your bike was indeed changed from 700c to 650b as I suspect, it's already gotten you closer to the small-diameter, plump tire option you desire.  I don't think you can reduce the wheel size further, without the bb being too low.  I am sorry to hear it's not what you thought it was going to be, but it's a beautiful bike.  Try it and see if you like it!

[Brian Turner]

It’s not likely that it was converted from a 700 frame because if it’s truly a 56cm, that was the largest size Atlantis that still took 26” wheels. Everything above that was 700. Now, there was also the aforementioned 56cm with 650b that was made for a short time… but to my knowledge that an a 53cm were the only two sizes they ran with 650b.

Brian
Lexington KY

[Ben Miller]

Either way, I wouldn't worry too much about BB height. With disc brakes, a lot of models can be run with 26, 27.5, or 29 wheels, as long as the smaller rims have larger tyres. Atlanti should have plenty of BB height to accommodate 26x2.1-2.2. 

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[Joe Bernard]

Revisiting my original comment now that I think we've established this is indeed an early 26-er converted to 650b..I think that classic Toyo frame deserves to be as originally constructed. I'd move the posts and repaint. 

[Pat McCullar]

Jamie,

I have an early Toyo Atlantis and everything in your photo would tell me that your bike is very early. 

I really don't have anything new to add that the other respondents haven't, but I do have a question. 

Early Toyo Atlantis frames have a chain hanger brazed on to the drive side seat stay. 

Mine (AT0040) has it, (see blurry photo) and a photo of an Atlantis believed to be AT0162 had it as well. 

I'm curious if the feature is still present on your frame (AT0299) or if it had been discontinued by then.

Thanks!

Pat

[Jamie D.]

Thanks again everyone, I now feel confident that this is an early 26" Atlantis with the bosses moved.

Pat, my frame does not have the chain hanger and has slightly different rear dropouts than yours but mine are consistent with this 56cm 26" Atlantis described as a 'first batch' Atlantis (which does have the chain hanger).

I also noticed that the canti bosses appear to be more square on the Toyo Atlantis as opposed to the round ones on my frame which is another clue that the bosses were moved.

I'm definitely going to move the posts and repaint, I think it's better to do it now rather than build up as-is now and maybe not get around to it for years.

Now as to how it should be repainted, submarine green would be the obvious answer and the 'purist' route which I'm somewhat inclined to do... but this seems like any excellent opportunity to pick a custom color which I believe this was an option in this era.

Does anyone know if there was a color chart to choose from or was it a do-what-you-want kind of thing?

[Patrick McCullar]

Jamie,

Thanks for checking that for me. 

Pat

On Apr 6, 2026, at 10:06 AM, Jamie D. <jamiedil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks again everyone, I now feel confident that this is an early 26" Atlantis with the bosses moved.

Pat, my frame does not have the chain hanger and has slightly different rear dropouts than yours but mine are consistent with this 56cm 26" Atlantis described as a 'first batch' Atlantis (which does have the chain hanger).

I also noticed that the canti bosses appear to be more square on the Toyo Atlantis as opposed to the round ones on my frame which is another clue that the bosses were moved.

I'm definitely going to move the posts and repaint, I think it's better to do it now rather than build up as-is now and maybe not get around to it for years.

Now as to how it should be repainted, submarine green would be the obvious answer and the 'purist' route which I'm somewhat inclined to do... but this seems like any excellent opportunity to pick a custom color which I believe this was an option in this era.

Does anyone know if there was a color chart to choose from or was it a do-what-you-want kind of thing?

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<dropout_2.jpg><boss.jpg><dropout.jpg>

[Joe Bernard]

Jamie, it was (and probably still is) a "do what you want if Grant can stand to see a Riv painted that color" thing. Riv would send the frame to D+D with decals. 

Joe Bernard