News around today's RBWHQ visit

[Bill Lindsay]

Today I visited RBW headquarters to order a frameset.  This year I sold two 700c Rivendells (a 58cm Atlantis and a 55cm Appaloosa) in order to help pay for two 650B Rivendells.  I mocked up both of the 650B candidates to my saddle height (75.5cm) and took the canonical garage door photo of each:  

56cm 650B Atlantis

53cm 650B Hunqapillar

Notably the Atlantis was wearing 27.5 x ~2.2" knobbies, which made it look super butch.  That's the main reason I'm sharing the photo(s) because that 2017 Fat-Lantis is a bit of a novelty.  The 53cm Hunqapillar is a little bit of a downsize for me, but I think that would be my son's go-to bike when we do S24Os together, and he's an inch or two shorter than me and not likely to get to 5'-10".  

So, I went ahead and ordered the Atlantis, which is exciting.  I went with a small upcharge to order a non-standard but Waterford stock color.  I will keep it a secret, but I promise it is not a unique Atlantis color.  One of you has an Atlantis that I am blatantly copying, because it looks so darn good.  

I was expecting a not-too-long turnaround, but Will explained to me that everybody from Waterford takes massive time off for deer-hunting season!  That cracked me up.  Anyway, now is just about the worst time for frame turnaround from those good Wisconsinites.  No harm done to me, as I've got plenty of other bikes to tide me over, but be warned if you are going to order something, that you will be well into Spring before you get it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Belopsky]

I was at a local Waterford dealer yesterday and two of the guys just ordered some Waterford frames. 2+months they were told.

[John Hawrylak]

Bill stated;

"...everybody from Waterford takes massive time off for deer-hunting season!..."

The "deer hunting season" phenomena is standard from central PA out through the Midwest, especially in the industrial areas.  It may seem strange to west Coast foks, but is quite normal.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ, but from Pittsburgh PA, but never hunted, but knows many hunters, and all are normal

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/02/2016 03:21 PM, John Hawrylak wrote:
> Bill stated;
> "...everybody from Waterford takes massive time off for deer-hunting
> season!..."
>
> The "deer hunting season" phenomena is standard from central PA out
> through the Midwest, especially in the industrial areas. It may seem
> strange to west Coast foks, but is quite normal.
>
>

When I moved from the Bronx to the Mid-Hudson Valley in 1958 I was
shocked to discover that the high school closed on the first day of deer
hunting season: so many teachers took the day off they couldn't keep the
school open.

[Bill Lindsay]

This is just classic.  I love it.  Who knew?  I feel like I did when I learned about Duck Duck Gray-Duck.  Everybody played a game called "duck, duck, goose" in grade school, right?  Wrong!  Everybody....except everybody from Minnesota.  Everybody from Minnesota played a game called "duck, duck, gray duck".  Tell a friend from Minnesota that you played "duck, duck, goose" as a kid, and they will think you are pulling their leg.  

[Ryan Fleming]

And, of course, for customs , you have to be really, really  patient...that's one of the criteria ...and have other bikes to ride ...that's another

But after seeing that purple Mixte a little while ago, I'm looking forward to what I'm gonna get.

Anyway, Bill ...2 new rivendells sounds pretty sweet  :) hope you  and your son  enjoy them!

[Steve Palincsar]

"Everybody"...?  There was no such game that I ever saw in New York City.   We did have "Tag You're It," though; and of course, the two games that of all things you ever learned in school were best able to prepare you for a career as a bureaucrat, "Mother May I" and "Simon Says." 

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[Bill Lindsay]

OK, well, practically everybody.  I'm telling you, if we had a vote, believe me, it would be a landslide.  I'm telling you a landslide.  The people, and these are all good honest people, have almost all of them played, all except those crooked people, duck duck something.  Those people who say they didn't play it, they haven't heard of duck duck something.  Let me tell you something, between you and me, these are very dishonest people, and you never can tell what they are telling you, the things they tell you.  Are they made up?  These things.  Are they lying?  These people.  I don't know, to be honest, I can't tell, but believe me a landslide we're having, because of this duck duck something game that we played, most of us, when we were children.  

[LeahFoy]

I hail from North Dakota (which hereafter shall be referred to as God's Country) where deer hunting is also alive and well. There is no school on the opener to this day.

Our friendly neighbors to the east in Minnesota are in muzzleloader season. One of my best friends just got her for a few days ago after hours in a tree, perched on a deer stand out in the cold. It was her first time missing the spinal cord, which affords a clean and quick death, but fortunately a liver shot is also deadly. She field dressed it herself and sent it to be processed at a meat plant as venison to feed her family.

I might also add that hunters are usually very respectful of wildlife and great conservationists. I add that because some not from the culture may have a different impression when they read this.

Bill - Merry Christmas indeed! TWO new Rivendells?!? I don't know how you can stand the excitement. I nearly tipped over last year when we got my husband's Clem.

[sameness]

Holy Grant PetersEn Ghost Writer! I'd say today's visit really rubbed off on you, if not your keyboard.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Sky Coulter]

Bill,

That's awesome.

Sky in new west

[dougP]

Argh!  The insanity is spreading!

Gonna be a loooong 4 years (heavy sigh).

dougP

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 1:11:05 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

Haha Jeff.  I was trying to go for a PEOTUS speech transcript.  

Bill

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

100% thumbs up on the Fat-Lantis!

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[Kieran J]

Sorry if I sounds confrontational, but in this day and age, you can't "be respectful of wildlife" while also participating in a killing spree. Some of us get through life very well without feeling the need to go on a violent rampage ..

Peace,

KJ

[LeahFoy]

Kieran, do you know what happens to deer when there is overpopulation? You know not of what you speak.

[Steve Palincsar]

I've never been hunting, but I can't imagine "violent rampage" is any kind of accurate description, no more so than "spree."   I'm guessing you are "not from the culture"...

--

[Kieran J]

Sure, nature can be cruel but the balance is there for a reason. Hunting for sport and unnecessary food stocks is indefensible, period. It's a practice steeped in tradition and dogma, like racism and fossil fuel extraction. It's a textbook display of human arrogance.

I understand this is not the forum for this stuff; I'll stand down. It does make my blood boil though - obviously.

KJ

[Belopsky]

ughhhhhhhhhhhh

[Edwin W]

Bill,

I have seen you write about the quest for these two bikes, but am hazy on the details. Can you let us know why you are getting these two bikes, and what you are going to do with them?

I like the look of both and can't wait to see your color.

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 1:20:14 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Daniel D.]

Do you think paying others to kill your food and wrap it nicely in saran wrap with nary a drop of blood gives you some kind of moral high ground?  The average shopper doesn't give much thought that something had to die so they could eat.  A hunter does...

"violent rampage" comparing hunting with racism  don't know whether to smh or lol.

[Kieran J]

I wrapped up my piece, but since you asked: in depth research into this topic and other food industry issues led me to stop eating meat long ago. 

Are you arguing against taking a moral stance on an important issue? 

KJ

[LeahFoy]

I can respect our differences, Kieren, especially because you've given up meat. That's real conviction - misguided, according to The Book of Leah, but genuine. Meat-eaters who get on their pedestal about hunting are a special kind of stupid, and there's just no kind way to say that. My experience with hunting couldn't be more different than the killing rampage you reference, but I can see you get there. I found this article online that I thought was excellent - AND IT HAS BIKES! I'll take Kieran's lead and be quiet now. Back to your regular programming, folks!

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2012/02/01/how-hunting-helps-wildlife/?client=safari

[Steve Palincsar]

As far as I'm concerned you can eat what you like, but I think you are on very shaky ground taking a "moral stance" on something you obviously know nothing about (i.e., hunting).  Especially since it's off topic.

--

[Bill Lindsay]

Edwin

I am happy to try to steer this thread back to my original post.  :-)

First, on the Atlantis front:

I had a 700c 58cm Atlantis.  I bought the frameset used here on this group for $1000.  At the time it came available it was too inexpensive to pass on, and I jumped at it.  I did a really nice build that I was super proud of, with several unique details.  The only thing I didn't like about the bike was toe-clip-overlap with fenders or really fat tires.  I have a paid sabbatical this coming fall, and I'm planning on doing a 2 week tour.  I have a neighbor whose wife has a 700c Atlantis and who told me "if you ever want to sell it I'll buy it".  So, when the 650B Atlantis came available, I sold my 700C Atlantis to my neighbor, at a great price to him since I only had $1000 into the frameset.  I'm going to set up this Atlantis as a 650x48 road bike, and it will potentially be the bike I take on my two week tour.  It will have drop bars and a light build.  

On the Appaloosa/Hunqapillar Front:  

When I was test riding the 650B Atlantis, Grant said "you better ride the 650B Hunq.  It's amazing".  I rode it and it is amazing.  I came back from the ride thinking "how can I get one of these?".  Selling my Appaloosa was the only way to partially justify it.  My 55cm Appaloosa also had toe clip overlap with fenders.  So, I sold my Appaloosa frameset and wheelset.  It will be a knockabout town and trail bike, and it will be my son's S24O bike, and sometimes mine.  It will have Albatross bars and a basket and fat knobby tires.  

Bill

[drew]

Do you have any info on the 56 hunq? I have an itchy feeling it may fit me better, but I'm curious about whether or not it will have a Diagatube.

Also, for those who like their beliefs shaken, there is a great radiolab episode about hunting and I don't think you could listen to it without taking a step out of whatever camp you're in, and into the gray areas of human decisions.

[George Schick]

Bill - thanks for steering the thread back to the OP.  I have a question about the Atlantis, too:  I'm a little fuzzy on what you mean by "27.5 x 2.2" knobbies".  "27.5"?  Can you put that into ISO terms, please.  Thanks.

[Patrick Moore]

I disagree, at least partly. I've shot exactly one real gun, a cheap .22, about 20 times, plinking at old appliances on the far west mesa desert, and that's it, apart from home-made firecracker matchlocks made in high school, but I truly believe that hunting, given the right circumstances, is normal. I've loved reading about guns, and one day I may own one, hopefully a black powder gun. (At my age, I'd better hurry.)

Hunting is just too much a part of human cultures worldwide and in all times - quod semper et ubique et ab omnibus, to borrow the Roman Catholic phrase defining right doctrine (I'm Orthodox, OK?) not to somehow be normal. Sure, many Buddhists and Jains and upper caste Hindus don't eat meat, but the practice is still so universal that principle still holds.

I do despise rich people who engage in comfortable slaughters with animals beaten toward a convenient shooting point -- autumn British upperclass pheasant shoots, Raj shikaris, the idiot dentist who payed thousands to shoot a famous lion; and rednecks with automatics and a fuck you mindset toward killing; but hunting can easily be "normal". 

I do think that the normal way to hunt is to hunt for food; and to make some sort of sacrifice to re-establish the spiritual equilibrium broken by causing death; after all, life is something we cannot make or own; it is somehow transcendent. The American Indians traditionally did this; Christians already have a bloody sacrifice, but an at least mental acknowledgement that life is something irreducible and that we don't own is clearly necessary. 

And the arguments about overpopulation are certainly valid too, as is the argument for maintaining the health of the species, and the argument from nature; after all, man isn't the only thing that kills for food.

Certainly, for a healthy mature deer to be killed competently by a hunter seems to me to be better than for a cow or what have you to be raised in the horrible and unnatural conditions imposed by industrial farming.

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

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Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

[Patrick Moore]

+1; if Keiren has given up meat, that's proof of real sincerity.

But if the Rivendell Way is Paleo, how do we square this circle?

Me, I eat meat sometimes, not often; and I'm not at all Paleo.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:56 PM, LeahFoy <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can respect our differences, Kieren, especially because you've given up meat. That's real conviction - misguided, according to The Book of Leah, but genuine. Meat-eaters who get on their pedestal about hunting are a special kind of stupid, and there's just no kind way to say that. My experience with hunting couldn't be more different than the killing rampage you reference, but I can see you get there. I found this article online that I thought was excellent - AND IT HAS BIKES! I'll take Kieran's lead and be quiet now. Back to your regular programming, folks!

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2012/02/01/how-hunting-helps-wildlife/?client=safari

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[Kieran J]

Steve, who says I know nothing about it? No one has proven that. And why, because I'm not a hunter? I've done more than my share of evidence-based research into my eating habits and the influential factors therein.

Leah, I respect your position and agree to disagree. As far as the link you shared, sadly the website is basically the conservative equivalent of the Huffington Post and is not a credible source of information. It is heavily (and obviously) biased and is not even close to being scientific in nature. In this age of Jan Heine and rigorous scientific analysis, we should apply the same requirements here.

Here is a piece, complete with source material, that offers a counter-argument. It also takes aim at the myth that overpopulation is a problem without human intervention. 

http://www.peta.org/issues/wildlife/wildlife-factsheets/sport-hunting-cruel-unnecessary/

KJ

[Bill Lindsay]

Drew

I do have a build sheet PDF for the 56cm Hunqapillar.  Send me a PM and I will email it to you.  If you want to get it straight from Rivendell, email Brian.  It does not have a Diagatube.  

To everybody else arguing back and forth about meat, please allow me to politely invite you to take it somewhere else.  If you insist on continuing it on RBW Owners Group, start your own thread so I can avoid reading it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

George 

The mountain bike folks call ISO 584 "27.5".  The same way the mountain bike folks call ISO 622 "29".  The Atlantis I pictured in the OP had some 584x57 knobby tires on it.  

Bill

[Kieran J]

Sorry, Bill. I think we're done :-s

Enjoy the Rivs.

KJ

[Scott McLain]

Hi Bill,

Love your bikes.  Your and inspiration for others with the +1 itch.  I have an AHH and can't make up my mind to go +1 with a Hunq or an Atlantis.  

I live in Utah and manage construction projects.  We always have to budget times into our project schedules for hunting season.  Even in Utah, it is much more about getting up in the mountains and enjoying time together.  The best hunters usually don't kill anything, because that leads to a lot of work (especially an elk) and ruins all the fun/relaxation.  The kids still get out of school on the first day of hunting season.  When I first moved here, I went on a mountain bike ride on opening day, and scared the XXXX out of myself because there were men with guns around every bend!

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 12:20:14 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Today I visited RBW headquarters to order a frameset.  This year I sold two 700c Rivendells (a 58cm Atlantis and a 55cm Appaloosa) in order to help pay for two 650B Rivendells.  I mocked up both of the 650B candidates to my saddle height (75.5cm) and took the canonical garage door photo of each:  

56cm 650B Atlantis

53cm 650B Hunqapillar

Notably the Atlantis was wearing 27.5 x ~2.2" knobbies, which made it look super butch.  That's the main reason I'm sharing the photo(s) because that 2017 Fat-Lantis is a bit of a novelty.  The 53cm Hunqapillar is a little bit of a downsize for me, but I think that would be my son's go-to bike when we do S24Os together, and he's an inch or two shorter than me and not likely to get to 5'-10".  

So, I went ahead and ordered the Atlantis, which is exciting.  I went with a small upcharge to order a non-standard but Waterford stock color.  I will keep it a secret, but I promise it is not a unique Atlantis color.  One of you has an Atlantis that I am blatantly copying, because it looks so darn good.  

I was expecting a not-too-long turnaround, but Will explained to me that everybody from Waterford takes massive time off for deer-hunting season!  That cracked me up.  Anyway, now is just about the worst time for frame turnaround from those good Wisconsinites.  No harm done to me, as I've got plenty of other bikes to tide me over, but be warned if you are going to order something, that you will be well into Spring before you get it.  

[John Hawrylak]

Bill

Did the 650B with wide tires eliminate the TOC???

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes.  Obsessing over Toe Clip Overlap has for the first time in my life caused me to obsess over Front Center.  Front Center is the distance between the front axle and the BB, center to center.  

I have a bike already that has 584x42 tires and fenders.  The fenders clear the tires by 15mm.  The Front Center is 626mm, and my toes clear the fenders by about 15mm.  The 56cm Atlantis has a Front Center of 618mm, so I am confident my toes will still clear, even with fenders.  They clear by a lot as pictured with fatter tires and no fenders.  

The 53cm Hunqapillar has a massively long Front Center, because it is has a long TT to go with upright bars.  It's Front Center is 637mm, so I'm completely sure it will clear no matter what tires I put on, because it has 584mm wheels.  

The 55cm Appaloosa had a 628mm Front Center, which is long, but with 622x50mm tires, plus fenders, it wasn't enough.  Low speed maneuvers, climbing slow, or weaving through the gates onto the bike path, I'd kick the fender with my toes from time to time.  It's not the end of the world, but I had the opportunity to make that issue go away with no compromises except money.  

Bill

[Chris Lampe 2]

Bill,  

Thanks for posting those photos with the saddles at 75.5cm.  I know you offered to do this and I appreciate you following thru with it.  

[Daniel D.]

well that's certainly an unbiased source....

[Christopher Cote]

Thanks for the report and pics! I'm surprised to see so much seat post showing on the 650b Hunq. I have a similar saddle height, so I also appreciate the pics. I re-entered the world of off-road biking a few years ago via a fat bike and later a 29er. So much different than the 26x1.95 we had in the mid-90s. I love the better rollingoverness of the bigger wheels. I'm hesitant to try 650b (although I did ride a full suspension 650b for a short ride, but not enough to get a full impression). The Hunqapillar is a bike on my want list, but in 700c/29 guise. I wonder what the TCO would be like on that. I'd ride a 54cm Hunq. The front-center is 630mm. My 59cm Heron has a front center of 600mm, and I get TCO with 700x40mm tires and fenders.

[Jim Dobbins]

If we want to consider cruel, a visit to a slaughter house, where our meat comes from should be under consideration.

Our industrially produced food can also be seen as a display of human arrogance.

-Jim D (who doesn’t hunt deer but does hunt upland birds)

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Waterford is going to be busy! We just put in an order for a Rodeo....

[Kellie]

Wow! I'm really glad I ordered my Atlantis when I did. It took 2-1/2 months and I'm in the process of building it now.

[Ron Mc]

good job Bill - those look worth the effort

[Hugh Smitham]

Bill, super happy for you. I sold my 56cm  Atlantis for a number of reasons one being the toe overlap the other tire width, too skinny. Looking forward to seeing the builds. 

I Love  Radiolab. Drew can you share the audio link? Or share the the name and date of the episode?

Without reading the articles that Leah and Kieran shared hunting is normal. No matter what, you're not going to stop it. If you kill it and eat it, I see nothing wrong. I'm a vegetarian because I want to do my part in reducing my carbon footprint. It's also healthier for me. Not you! You may have a different biology. IMO mass animal husbandry is cruel and is a huge (statistical fact) producer of greenhouse gases. And to top it off and mass consumer of water. 

~Hugh (adding more fuel to the fire) Smitham  

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 3:09:51 PM UTC-8, drew wrote:

[Tim]

I love the looks of that Atlantis Bill! If there's a next Riv in my stable (ha! That's so funny...IF there's a next Riv...) it will be an Atlantis. I'll probably need a 61. I've never experienced toe overlap on any bikes so I think maybe that won't be anise for a 700c in 61. Am I right about that? My only 650B bike is my MAP rando bike and the jury is still out on it because I've not ridden over 30 miles on it. I'm intrigued by 650B though... Anyway, those are both really sweet rides!

[George Schick]

I like the looks of the Atlantis, too.  And I can see why those who own one tout it's general purpose effectiveness for everything from off-road to self supported touring.  However, when bringing the model up as such an example during discussions on other blogs I frequently encounter push-back that it's too expensive for what's worth.  Examples include the much cheaper Surly LHT or a "nice custom" which could be built for the same price or less.  So I guess it's a niche market and all depends on how much one is willing to spend.  

[Bill Lindsay]

People who love their LHT and hate the Atlantis are better off with the LHT. People capable of specifying a custom frameset that is superior to a masterpiece like the Atlantis should go ahead and do that. People who love the Atlantis, but think it should cost $500 are doomed to be unhappy.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Dave Johnston]

Bill,
Did the folks at RivHQ give you a hard time for ordering bikes that are "too small" by their standards. There is a lot more than a Fistful of seatpost showing there.

-Dave

[RichS]

From an Atlantis owner: absolutely worth the price of ownership.

Regards,
Richard

[Joe Bernard]

A lugged steel frame made to order by Waterford in the USA sounds pretty custom to me. I don't agree with the conventional wisdom that a full custom - even one from Rivendell - always gets you a better bike if the Atlantis already fits, and does the stuff one wants to do with their $2300 frameset.

[Bill Lindsay]

They vigorously encouraged me to order the 56 Atlantis over the 59 that I had also considered, given that I'm doing a drop bar build. Brian was probably the one I've talked with the most about this particular bike.

I haven't ordered a Hunqapillar yet, and still may end up on the 56 instead of the 53. It is a lot of post showing. They never give me a hard time though.

[dougP]

I bought my Atlantis after quite a bit of discussion with Rivendell.  I wanted a custom touring bike but after the measurements, questions about current bike, etc, they said, "Well, what we'd build would pretty much be an Atlantis with S&S couplings.  How badly do you want that feature?"  There were a few other fiddly bits involved but as it turned out a stock Atlantis exceeded expectations.  That was in 2003. 

RE: LHT v Atlantis.  One of my touring buds got an Atlantis after years on a LHT.  Hopping back'n'forth between them, he concluded the difference was real.  Not huge but noticeable.  So you really do get something more than pretty lugs & 2 tone paint.  Will it change your life in mystical ways?  Probably not. 

dougP

[masmojo]

I am envious! That sounds a great plan!
Like you I also got my Atlantis on this board & I totally love it.
I have several 650B bikes & in the middle frame sizes I think it makes the most sense. I consider myself to be at the lower limit of what is idesl for 650B & most frames my size are 26" I've riden 26" for most of my adult life so no big deal. My Atlantis is 26" & after Grant announced that Atlanti were going to 650B I was keen to get one in 26" before the switch, when one popped up here. That may sound somewhat contradictory, but I had just ridden a 26" wheeled Hunq. And I liked it! After riding an XO-1 for so long I really liked the "squirtyness" of the 26" wheels, they just go when you mash the pedals which is important to me because most of the time I am commuting or getting around town.
I love the roll of 650B tires though, they are certainly more plush.
I may have a semi-custom Hunq. In my near future so I'll be interested in how that works out.
Regarding timing; Waterford must be awful busy, because I know someone else who recently ordered a 650b Atlantis!?
Hunting? Not a hunter myself, but I would hardly characterize it a brutality or violence either. Most game animals have relatively short life spans, if they are not hunted by men and they grow old & die then imagine the effects of their decaying flesh on the environment. Everything living, dies, it's energy consumed by some other organism. I've not eaten meat before, but I felt My energy level was always low, so I embrace the fact that I am a carnivore. To a certain extent I personally believe what you eat effects our brain chemistry & how we think; the longer a person goes without eating meat, it mskes sense that the thought of it will be more repellent. I also agree that I would rather eat an animal whose been allowed to live a more or less normal life then one thats been confined and fattened for slaughter. Sorry, had to get that off my chest, in fairness, I did not bring it up! 😉
Here in Texas its dangerous to ride certain places during deer season!
Sorry for the novel!

[Chris Lampe 2]

This is a quote from an article written by Jeremiah Knupp and published in the April, 2016 edition of American Rifleman.  The article is about one of Ernest Hemingway's favorite rifles but I think this paragraph is a perfect summation of how I feel about an Atlantis/Hunqapillar vs an LHT or maybe an A. Homer Hilsen vs a Surly Pacer. 

"Good means “adequate.” A good car is one that gets you to work every day, picks up the kids after school, hauls the groceries twice a week and starts every time you turn the key. A good rifle goes bang every time you pull the trigger, fires a cartridge that accomplishes what it was intended for and lets the average shooter put all of his rounds into an area the size of a dinner plate at 100 yds. As a hunter, Ernest Hemingway owned and used some of the best firearms the 20th century had to offer—guns with names such as Griffin & Howe, Westley Richards and Boss engraved on them. He understood the difference between “good” and “really good.” Good gets the job done. Really good reaches down and touches something deep inside you while it’s getting the job done. For a man like “The Man” to add the adverb “really” to a rifle he calls “good” is something to take note of."

[Patrick Moore]

Now that is interesting news. Please keep us updated.

What will be different from the stock model?

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 8:50 AM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I  may have a semi-custom Hunq. In my near future ......

[Andy Williams]

I currently ride a 53 cm Bleriot, and am considering an Atlantis as the last bike I will ever buy, until the next one (N+1, you know.)

But, I'm curious about the wheel size and the considerations for either 650B or 26"?   Pros and cons of each?

Andy

[Bill Lindsay]

Andy

Asking for the pros and cons of 650B vs 26" deserves it's own thread, if you sincerely want this group to cover that ground for you.  As the ~60th post on a thread that has nothing about your topic in the thread title or in my original post, you won't likely get the best perspectives asking that here.  There are tons of opinion pieces on the internet comparing them all, from all different perspectives.  Both wheel sizes are great.  Read up some, ride a few bikes if you can, talk with people you trust and go with your gut.  Start a thread on this topic if you want to have a big swath of this group chime in.  Many will ask you "what kind of riding are you going to do?"  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Andy Williams]

Thanks, Bill.  Of course, I appreciate your advice and will do some research on my own.

My apologies for going off tangent.

Andy

[Ian Strader]

If the 56cm 650B Atlantis can take 2.2" knobbies, I wonder if you could squeeze some 2.35" slicks in there...

https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/racing_tires/G-ONE_Speed

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 11:20:14 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Today I visited RBW headquarters to order a frameset.  This year I sold two 700c Rivendells (a 58cm Atlantis and a 55cm Appaloosa) in order to help pay for two 650B Rivendells.  I mocked up both of the 650B candidates to my saddle height (75.5cm) and took the canonical garage door photo of each:  

56cm 650B Atlantis

53cm 650B Hunqapillar

Notably the Atlantis was wearing 27.5 x ~2.2" knobbies, which made it look super butch.  That's the main reason I'm sharing the photo(s) because that 2017 Fat-Lantis is a bit of a novelty.  The 53cm Hunqapillar is a little bit of a downsize for me, but I think that would be my son's go-to bike when we do S24Os together, and he's an inch or two shorter than me and not likely to get to 5'-10".  

So, I went ahead and ordered the Atlantis, which is exciting.  I went with a small upcharge to order a non-standard but Waterford stock color.  I will keep it a secret, but I promise it is not a unique Atlantis color.  One of you has an Atlantis that I am blatantly copying, because it looks so darn good.  

I was expecting a not-too-long turnaround, but Will explained to me that everybody from Waterford takes massive time off for deer-hunting season!  That cracked me up.  Anyway, now is just about the worst time for frame turnaround from those good Wisconsinites.  No harm done to me, as I've got plenty of other bikes to tide me over, but be warned if you are going to order something, that you will be well into Spring before you get it.