Trigger Shifters?

[Steve Cole]

I know Riv doesn't generally condone/approve of the use of trigger shifters -- they don't sell them.  I'm wondering whether any list members have used them and, if so, whether you might recommend them when compared to bar ends with Albatross bars.

Thanks for your reply.

Steve Cole

Arlington, VA

[Christopher Murray]

Howdy!

I have them on my fat bike with Albatross bars and love them. I like that I don't have to move my hands around too much (especially in the winter). Indexed shifting works great and is very reliable but it can be difficult/ impossible to fix if there is a problem and can limit your options for parts. There are so many good cheap options out there it is hard to go wrong if you are curious. SRAM makes some decent stuff that can be incredibly cheap- I like the x-5 stuff.

Cheers!
Chris

[Michael Hechmer]

Having used both Shimano brifters and their BE indexed shifters I found I much prefer the BEs.  Although I should add that my experience with the brifters - a couple of years of commuting was 10 years ago.  I found the rear brifters worked well, while the front, with a triple, needed constant readjustment.  I did not like the ergonomics of the brifters, which require the rider to push with the finger tips.  The BE have a number of advantages.  The motion is exactly what fingers have evolved to do; the motion is very intuitive - lifting either lever lifts the chain & vice versa; the position of the lever tells you what gear combination you are in; and, if something comes out of alignment during a ride you can switch to friction.

I have not had the difficulties with 9 speed friction that others on this list have encountered.  I try to use the shortest RD cage I can; buy quality cassettes & chains; and replace them when they are worn.  I prefer friction because it is faster than indexed shifting.  I am very experienced with friction. Riding here in Vermont offers lots of radical grade shifts and puts a premium on the ability to shift across the range very quickly and I find friction does that better.  I have indexed BEs on the tandem but don't like the hesitation I get before the chain moves.

I would think that Albatross bars would keep your hands pretty near the BEs so that also argues against the added expense of brifters.

Michael

[Ginz]

I have used Shimano Rapid Fire on my hardtail since the early 2000s.  Only XT and XTR. Both are great. Although, as with any indexing system, the front der adjustment can be tricky.  You often have to life with a little chain rub against the inside of the cage.

Personally, I stay away from the more economical versions, as they can feel rather clunky.  Otherwise, they are fantastic.

[Ron Mc]

currently very happy with indexed thumbies.  While trigger shifters work find they gon't give you visual feedback about your engaged gear.  

[Ginz]

Some triggers have a gauge with a red indicator for your current gear.  XT and XTR definitely have this.  

[cyclotourist]

Hi Steve, I've had MTB trigger shifters mounted on A-bars, and they
work fine. IIRC they were the integrated kind attached to brake
levers. A little clunky looking, but function worked well.

You didn't mention the option, but I prefer thumb shifters to either
trigger or bar end.

As for bar end, I like the SRAM X9 model that has a thumb push for
both up and down shifts vs. most others that have a thumb push to pull
cable and then finger pull to release. I don't think they have this in
their current models, as this is older nine speed.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Ginz <the...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some triggers have a gauge with a red indicator for your current gear. XT
> and XTR definitely have this.
>

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Steven Sweedler]

Here are some pictures of a friends custom installation of Rapid Fire on drop bars. He added the cross bar for our recent tour in the Adirondacks and had a small front bag there. Steve

On Saturday, July 18, 2015, Ginz <the...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have used Shimano Rapid Fire on my hardtail since the early 2000s.  Only XT and XTR. Both are great. Although, as with any indexing system, the front der adjustment can be tricky.  You often have to life with a little chain rub against the inside of the cage.

Personally, I stay away from the more economical versions, as they can feel rather clunky.  Otherwise, they are fantastic.

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Joe Bernard]

You might want to scour Ebay/Craigslist for a cheap right-or-left trigger first to see how it feels. I've used them to good effect on semi-swept-back bars, but Albas come back at an almost 90-degree angle. The index finger trigger should be fine (Shimano Rapidfire), but the thumb position might be a little awkward to operate.

[a3inverter]

I actually use a 7 speed Shimano rear trigger shifter on one of my road
bikes. Took a little bit of work but operates flawlessly. I tend to ride
on the ramps, so shifting is accomplished with a quick reach of the thumb.
I agree with Michael regarding front vs. rear indexing. I handle the front
shifting with a downtube shifter and feather as I shift across the cassette.

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 11:00:23 PM UTC-4, Steve Cole wrote:
>

[iamkeith]

Funny you should ask!  I just yesterday received a box from Rivendell with a set of Albatross bars, to put on a mountain bike that I haven't been able to make peace with fit-wise, and which happens to have trigger shifters.   I just swapped the bars on this afternoon and went for a ride. Some pictures attached.

In general, they seem to work pretty well and, to me, look just fine.   They have a comfortable and very natural / ergonomic shifting motion, but I did find that I accidentally bumped the larger, thumb (cable pull) triggers a bit when riding on really rough trails.   The smaller, index finger (cable release) triggers are well protected though.   These are late 90s xtr with separate shifter and lever clamps.  I think the integrated version that David mentioned would actually give you a little more room to slide them forward.  As is, this combination leaves >just< enough room on the straight section for the grips.  No room left for a fork lock-out button but hopefully you're not dealing with that nonsense, like I am. 

As for the bars themselves in this type of application.....  jury's out.   I couldn't climb at all on steep singletrack, because my front wheel kept lifting up.  Actually, I think I kept bumping the shifter precisely because I was intuitively trying to shift my weight forward by moving my grip.

Also to agree with David said:  If you have the option and aren't considering trigger shifters just because you already have them, get thumb shifters by all means!

[Jeremy Till]

I use trigger shifters on my MTB and as a mechanic work on them all the time.  Indexed triggers have been refined a lot over the years and now work really well, although it is true that they operate on finer tolerances than friction setups and thus require a bit more care and attention when setting up.  That being said, if you are careful about initial setup, especially re-adjusting after initial cable stretch and housing bed-in, they can go for thousands of miles without needing substantial re-adjustment, provided nothing happens like a bent derailleur hanger or kinked/frayed cable.  

As others have said, the sensitivity goes up with the number of rear speeds, so I find that any point in the time-bike technology continuum there's a sweet spot of still being able to find quality parts (especially cassettes and shifters) in a given number of speeds while staying away from the high-end super sensitive stuff.  High-end 7 speed and 8 stuff was super robust but impossible to find now; you can buy high-quality 10 and 11 speed stuff all day long now but it's a bit finicky.  For me right now, the sweet spot is around 9 speed.  I use 9 speed indexed bar-ends on my Riv-ish Surly LHT and last year I bought a MTB with a mixed Shimano Deore/Alivio 9spd group.  However, even there the number of quality cassettes (and thus gear range choice) is diminishing.  I've been eyeballing the IRD cassettes, they seem to be committed to supporting older component specs, hopefully their stuff stands up well under use.  

One common failure mode to watch out for is that old Shimano triggers will gum up as their original factory lubrication hardens.  This prevents pawls from engaging as you push the cable take-up lever, making it impossible to shift onto bigger cogs.  Luckily, there is an easy fix: open up the shifter (usually removing some lower plate or cover so you expose the internals), spray the internals with some type of degreaser, work the shifter back and forth through its range until you can feel all of the clicks again, and then re-lubricate with a light lube like Tri-Flow and reinstall the cover.  

In terms of ergonomics, I like trigger shifters best on bars that have 1 strong primary hand position, like flat or semi-swept back bars.  Personally, on Riv-ish upright bars like the Albatross and Bosco, with grip areas that are closer to straight front-to-back, I don't think triggers work well since they make it more difficult to move your hands forward and back on the the bar to adjust your lean, part of the genius of that style of bar IMHO.  I like the bar-ends on my Boscos.  However, if you are the type that mainly uses the primary (all the way back) hand position on them, then triggers might work well.  Be advised that because of the way that the cable exits the shifter, you may be limited in being able to angle the shifter to your liking, especially on Bosco bars.  

[Philip Williamson]

Thanks for the tip on resuscitating old Shimano triggers. Mine stopped working, and I thought they had stripped the pawls.
I've been thinking about taking the Bontrager back to its original flat bar, from drops. I'll see if the shifters are fixable with your method.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[cyclotourist]

Used to love eight speed, but I'm finding that other than a
proprietary sized chain, nine is pretty nice. Not a fan of 10 due two
chains coming apart mid-ride. NEVER had that happen with six, seven,
eight, or nine.

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[Steve Palincsar]

Proprietary sized chain? You can buy 9 speed chains from many, many
companies. It's as much of a "standard" as any other size chain.

[Dan]

The number of rear cogs i use stopped at 8 speed setups, but have used most available shifting options, and the two best were first-gen xtr triggers and Ultegra bar ends mounted on paul thumbie mounts. Still have the Paul's, and they still work fantastically. Greatly prefer them over xt triggers on this bike.

[cyclotourist]

Nine speed is specially sized. Not the company, the size. Chains from
five to eight speed are interchangeable. At nine you need a
proprietary-sized one. Same with 10 and 11.

[Philip Williamson]

I settled on nine speed when I had to use those chains for my Dingle cogs.
I suddenly have an 8 speed Lemond, with STI, so I might be branching out.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Steve Palincsar]

Unique is one thing, proprietary is another.

Definition of PROPRIETARY

1:  one that possesses, owns, or holds exclusive right to something; specifically :  proprietor 

2:  something that is used, produced, or marketed under exclusive legal right of the inventor or maker; specifically :  a drug (as a patent medicine) that is protected by secrecy, patent, or copyright against free competition as to name, product, composition, or process of manufacture

9 speed chains are not proprietary under either meaning of the word.

[cyclotourist]

Today you have won all the internets!

Nine speed chains are special.

[Ron Mc]

they really are special, and I got a Wippermann Conex stainless with hollow pins from Ribble for $50.  (v. $110-117 from US vendors)  

here, I'll throw you a bone  http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/sp/road-track-bike/wippermann-wippermann-chains-wippermann-connex-9s1-9-spd-chain/wippchai340000000000

On Monday, July 20, 2015 at 10:21:32 AM UTC-5, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

Today you have won all the internets!

Nine speed chains are special.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 4:46 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
> Unique is one thing, proprietary is another.

>...

[Steve Cole]

I'm very grateful for the time everyone has taken to respond to my question.  I'm always interested in the views of others.  In the mean time, it seems to make sense to set up my albatross bar with bar-ends.  I have a 9/3 setup with Dura Ace bar ends.  I may move to trigger shifters if I find the bar ends less than ideal.  I have Shimano Deore XT front and rear derailleur and would seek out a set of XT 9/3 trigger shifters in the event I make the switch.

Steve Cole

Arlington, VA

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 11:00:23 PM UTC-4, Steve Cole wrote:

[KenP]

I have bikes with trigger shifters and bar end shifters and downtube shifters.  I prefer the trigger shifters, but to get them to shift really well on my Saluki, I had to switch to a Shimano crank.

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 11:00:23 PM UTC-4, Steve Cole wrote:

[ed k]

I was excited to see this thread because I was planning to do this to my wife's Betty. So I pulled the trigger (ha) and bought a set of Albatross bars from Riv and Shimano SL-T670 shifters from Nashbar. Went to set it up this morning.

The bike has 105 derailers and a 10-speed cassette.  The shifters are 3x10.  But the rear shifter/derailer/cassette are not playing well.  It seems like the derailer is traveling too far for each click of the shifter.  The derailer traverses the entire 10-speed cassette in just 6 clicks of the 10-speed shifter.  

Everything I read on the interwebs says that this combo ought to work.  10-speed + 10-speed + Shimano derailer = happiness.  But either the shifter is pulling too much cable or the derailer is pivoting wrong.  I can't tell which.

The setup I replaced used Dura-Ace indexed levers.  10-speeds, no problem.   The cable is anchored to the derailer the same way, not cockeyed which might change the ratio, according to Sheldon.

I have not taken this to the LBS, because I think they would immediately say "won't work, buy this".  I want to check with some people experienced with doing this mix-and-match setup.  Any ideas, please?  What did I miss?

(I have not tried the front yet, but I know that it may not work either because the road/MTB front derailers do have different ratios.  I am ready to swap in a Deore just in case.)

Thanks

Ed K

Rockville MD

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 11:00:23 PM UTC-4, Steve Cole wrote:

[iamkeith]

Sorr y for short reply - on smart phone at moment, but can expand later if necessary.

Shimano changed derailleur movement ratio for mountain groups only with advent of 10 speed. They call it dynasys. All previous derailleurs with exception of older dura ace were 1.67:1 (often cited as 2:1. Forget dynasys ratio at moment but closerto 1:1. Easiest thing for you to do now Iis get a dynasys rear d. Note that road 10 speed is still older ratio and wont work

[Jim Bronson]

Some Walmarts have KMC 9 speed chains re-branded as Bell and they cost not much more than on eBay, $14 at my Walmart.  I've never bought one but I made a mental note in case I ever found myself needing one.

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Jim Bronson]

I've used 10 speed chains before on 9 speed drivetrains, worked fine.

[Jim Bronson]

Microsoft makes Dynasys compatible bar-ends, if you want to take that post the other direction, e.g., have a Dynasys-spec MTB rear derailer and don't want to use trigger shifters.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 2:14 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorr y for short reply - on smart phone at moment, but can expand later if necessary.

Shimano  changed derailleur movement ratio for mountain groups only with advent of 10 speed.  They call it dynasys.  All previous derailleurs with exception of older dura ace were 1.67:1 (often cited as 2:1.  Forget dynasys ratio at moment but closerto 1:1.  Easiest thing for you to do now Iis get a dynasys rear d.  Note that road 10 speed is still older ratio and wont work

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[Jeremy Till]

This-- 10 spd Shimano Road does not equal 10spd Shimano Mountain (Dynasys).  Usually, the conflict is the other way--people wanting to use the wide-range dynasys cassettes with their shimano road shifters (in which case, a 9spd mountain bike rear derailleur will work).  In this case, the answer would be to use the 10spd road flat bar shifters that shimano makes.  I think currently they're offered in the Tiagra product line, and work really well.   

[ed k]

Thanks everybody for dragging me into 2010 when Dynasys became the cool thing.  Somehow I managed to miss all of that, probably out riding my bike.  It certainly is not mentioned in the adverts for shifters.

Let me take a step back and ask some advice: this is being driven by my wife's somewhat precarious balance, and her trouble in moving hands off the bar to shift.  I am trying to keep the controls under her fingertips.  We have tried bar-ends, Thumbies and stem-mounted levers, with little success.  I see a choice between triggers and twist shifters, both of which look really out of place on the beautiful Betty Foy.  But I have to go with the practical solution.  

If I go back to a 9-speed drivetrain I think I get more choices in shifters.  Is that right?  I am willing to scrap the whole 105 setup and start again with Riv-standard Deore if need be.  This is attractive also because I had the bike spec'd and assembled by someone else, and he went with the 10-speed 11-28 cassette and 105 derailers.  Turns out to have been a poor choice.

Can anybody suggest a combination that's not quite so ugly?  Or another solution for a wobbly rider?

Thanks, and sorry for the thread hijack

[iamkeith]

Keeping this as simple and inexpensive as possible, while adhering to your perfectly reasonable criteria, I think there are basically three ways to go:

1.  Get a mountain-specific 10 speed derailleur, to work with all of the other parts you already have.  They're not especially pretty compared to 105 stuff, but they're not nearly as ugly as they were a few years ago.   They do come in silver, which helps a lot:

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_577269_-1___204714

(verify that this is Dynasys, but I can't imagine why it wouldn't be.  It's mountain-specific.)

2.  Get rid of the 10 speed trigger shifters you already have, and replace them with a 9 speed version PLUS a 9 speed cassette PLUS a 9 speed chain.  Technically, you probably don't need a new chain, but  the 9 speed is theoretically more durable than the 10, and cheaper too.  Mid-range 9-speed trigger shifters are still available new, but they probably aren't any nicer looking than the 10-speed ones you just got:

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_501280_-1___204723

3.  Look for some older-but-nicer looking 9 speed trigger shifters on Ebay or something.  Probably easier to find in silver.  As above, this would require a new cassette and chain.

Integrated:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-XT-ST-M750-MTB-Shifter-Brake-Lever-9-Speed-Silver-/371376531172

non-integrated:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHIMANO-ALIVIO-SL-M4000-3-x-9-Speed-Shifters-MTB-Road-Bike-Pair-Front-Rear-NEW-/131565742740

Some other thoughts:

- Shimano trigger shifters are probably one of the few component areas where the higher end series is worth the extra money.  Ratchets and pawls are often metal versus plastic, and hold up better.  (So I hear....   I have experience with exactly two bikes with trigger shifters, only because they came that way.)

- Just my opinion, but twist shifters are the worst possible option.   They require letting go of the handlebar and contorting your wrist in the most awkward manner, if you need to shift through several gears at once - often when you least want to let go.

[iamkeith]

Two more thoughts:

-  If you ride in hilly terrain, you probably want a wider-range cassette, no matter which setup you choose.  Something like 12-34 for 9 speed, or 12-36 for 10 speed.   Sounds like this guy really did steer you wrong and, on top of everything else, gave you a close-ratio roadie cassette with no low gears.  And it's probable that he also gave you a derailleur with too short of a cage to work with a bigger cogs. 

-  Someone else can chime in but, as far as I know, the 10 speed series front shifter, that you already have, should still work just fine with the 105 front derailleur that you already have.   I believe only the rear cable pull changed.

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 4:32:58 PM UTC-6, ed k wrote:

[ted]

Regarding shifter alternatives, I suggest you consider trying these mounted so the shifter is on the inside/underside of the bar

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/shsrtsr.htm

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/shsrtsl.htm

I think I have seen folks do sort of the same set up with the paul thumbies and shimano bar ends, but these would be less expensive and the adjustable angle on the cable exit seems better. Also RBW say:

"Nice enough looking for any bike. "

[ed k]

Agreed - it's back to the 9-speed stone age for me.  A reasonably-priced Riv drivetrain is what I should have insisted on.  That's my next step, along with your suggestion of older 9-speed shifters.  I think that will set her up.  It won't be shiny 105 components but it will work well.

Thanks

Ed K

[ed k]

I like these and I might use them on my bike.  But it looks like it would use opposing muscle groups.  Her balance wiring is marginal.  I think it's going to be triggers. 

Ed K

[ed k]

Project Trigger Finger Betty well underway. All new 9 speed drivetrain including black trigger shifters. Here is how the concept looks in execution.
https://goo.gl/photos/QcucVPkmVMLs4nfx7
https://goo.gl/photos/jhjL317CtrLAHoQB8

I am telling myself the black trigger shifters give the bike a rakish tomboy look. My wife is not thrilled with the look but she rides better than she ever has on this bike, so she is won over. I am now researching vacuum aluminum deposition on plastic for a chrome look.

[ted]

Perhaps some frame matching paint could help?